Carnera - Legit Champ or Circus freak?

[GoldenHulk]

I'd like to know your opinions about Primo Carnera. Supposedly he was managed by the mob, and many of his fights were fixed. On the other hand Max Schmeling always thought Primo was a good technical boxer, and Jack Sharkey maintained til the day he died that Carnera legitimately knocked him out.
Some fans might be familiar with the movie The Harder They Fall. The movie is supposedly based on Carnera's career. The basic story is about a giant Argentinian peasant who is controlled by the mob, has all of his fights fixed, until he gets a shot at the champ(played by Max Baer in the movie), and suffers a horrific beating, and then is left penniless by the mobsters.
I have both the book and the movie, Toro Moreno, the main character is about 6'7 and 280lbs, in the book despite his size, we are constantly reminded about his complete lack of punching power, lack of reflexes, and how easily hurt he is despite his great size and physical strength. I cant imagine a guy of Primo Carnera's size not being able to hurt another heavyweight, especially back in the 1930's when most other heavyweights were only 6 ft tall and 190-200lbs.

[Langford]

size does not equal punching power. There is a lot of technique involved, which is why Valuev is not the hardest puncher on the scene today. I do think, in many cases, it increases your ability to take a punch. But just because he was so big does not mean that he is the hardest puncher.

I think Carnera is, by many, to be too written off. There are many who think that size is all that matters, and if heavyweights of larger size were knocked out by smaller guys, its because the bigger guy was a big novice.

Its not completely that simple.

Carnera was a decent fighter, with a decent punch. He is one of the lesser heavyweight champions of all time in my book, but he has his fair share of good wins.

Like you say, Sharkey maintained that the ko was legit. I have seen the Godfrey fight and if that was fixed, I really didn't see it.

Good movie. I love JJWalcott in it (amongst other real life fighters). I love it when the manager takes the big fighter into the room and then kind of says to Joe "Ok, let him have it" and then Joe punches him.

Good line in it as well that boxing is a tough business. A fighter who is 30 is old, but for anyone else its a young age, and how people are only around the champs when they are on top.

[Luigi1985]

He wasn´t great or so, but very good. He beat the best fighters of his era, fighters like Sharkey, Schaaf, Uczudun, Maloney, King Levinsky, Campolo, Charles, Neusel, Godfrey, Loughran, Bearcat Wright, etc., and that he couldn´t punch is a myth like saying the 60s-Ali- version would be unbeatable, he knocked 72 opponents out in only 103 fights (89 wins), and most KO´s were real KO´s and not TKO´s or RTD´s, he also KO´d fighters who were never KO´d beside against Primo or had very good/ iron chins like Campolo, Bearcat Wright, Impelletiere, etc., that many fights of him were fixed is also false, only both Young Stribling- bouts are reported fixed fights, another lie about him is, that he had a glass chin, IMO he had a pretty solid chin, it needed 2 of the hardest HW- hitters of all times to TKO him, and both fights were massacres with unbelievable many punches. I have Carnera in my Top 50 HW-list of all times, because of his resume, and head-to-head he would be also not that bad, because of his gigantic size, weight, stamina, jab and strength...

[DaveTheWave]

Don't be fooled- He was a joke. A big, clumsy bum with no skills. Anyone with mediocre talent and/or power exposed him. The only thing he had going for him is his size.

[Zakman]

Don't be fooled- He was a joke. A big, clumsy bum with no skills. Anyone with mediocre talent and/or power exposed him. The only thing he had going for him is his size.

That's my feeling too. Carnera is one of the worst linear champs of all time, right down there with guys like Rahman, Briggs and Marvin Hart. He seems to get overrated by some classic fans, but everything I've ever read about the guy bears out what you say. And watching how Baer annihilated him shows what a crappy chin he had too.

Just about every boxing historian I've ever read confirms that a significant portion of his fights were fixed, so one can't even be confident of the legitimatcy of his wins.

[ChrisPontius]

Legit champ. It's very popular to repeat what you've heard and say "all his fights are fixed" but i've never seen much evidence of his fixed fights. There may have been a few, but most of his fights against contenders seem to be legit. I thought the Sharkey KO looked real. Like a real champion he defended his crown often and against good challengers too. I think he deserves a bit more respect even if he wasn't as good as modern guys his size.

[Mendoza]

He wasn´t great or so, but very good. He beat the best fighters of his era, fighters like Sharkey, Schaaf, Uczudun, Maloney, King Levinsky, Campolo, Charles, Neusel, Godfrey, Loughran, Bearcat Wright, etc., and that he couldn´t punch is a myth like saying the 60s-Ali- version would be unbeatable, he knocked 72 opponents out in only 103 fights (89 wins), and most KO´s were real KO´s and not TKO´s or RTD´s, he also KO´d fighters who were never KO´d beside against Primo or had very good/ iron chins like Campolo, Bearcat Wright, Impelletiere, etc., that many fights of him were fixed is also false, only both Young Stribling- bouts are reported fixed fights, another lie about him is, that he had a glass chin, IMO he had a pretty solid chin, it needed 2 of the hardest HW- hitters of all times to TKO him, and both fights were massacres with unbelievable many punches. I have Carnera in my Top 50 HW-list of all times, because of his resume, and head-to-head he would be also not that bad, because of his gigantic size, weight, stamina, jab and strength...


This is my take on it as well, though Carnera would be in my top 70, not top 50. The alleged fixed fights on Carnera were stories given to discredit a foreign born fighter who defeated a USA born Champion. Carnera vs Sharkey was not a fix. I have seen the fight many times. Sharkey sort of bounces off the ropes right into a Carnera uppercut. If historians want to talk about a " fixed fight " they should focus on one Carnera lost. I'm talking about the Carnera vs Pedora fight.

Here's the quick news flash from Box Rec:


Poreda spotted Carnera over 62 pounds. Commissioner George E. Keenen, who was ringside, suspended Referee Joe Mangold indefinitely for what was termed an "unpardonable decision." Carnera was warned in four rounds for roughness and back-handed blows, pulling and elbowing and drew the boos of the 15,000 spectators. "The decision given by Mangold was the worst I have ever seen," said Keenen. He can't possibly have any excuse for his action, and I have decided to suspend him and keep him suspended until he learns how to judge a fight."

Some in boxing wanted to get rid of Carnera. One writer said Carnera should only fight in a Super Dreadnaught division ( 250 pounds and up ) , because he was too big and beating many skilled, but smaller fighters. While Carnera was certainly big, he wasn't a stiff. He was rather athletic for a big man, and had unusually good stamina for a person so large. His main draw back was lack of defense which meant he took beating vs best punchers he faced in Baer and Louis. There can be no doubting Carnera's heart in these fights. While Carnera did not have a great chin, it wasn't all that bad either.

Outside the ring, Carnera was no dummy. He spoke 4 languages, and had some of his own businesses. Looking back, Carnera had quite a life. Born to poor parents who could not afford him, Carnera grew up dirt poor with his grandparents. He ran away from his home land to join a circus, then was discovered by a promoter, and made it all the way to heavyweight champion of the world.

[Mendoza]

That's my feeling too. Carnera is one of the worst linear champs of all time, right down there with guys like Rahman, Briggs and Marvin Hart. He seems to get overrated by some classic fans, but everything I've ever read about the guy bears out what you say. And watching how Baer annihilated him shows what a crappy chin he had too.

Just about every boxing historian I've ever read confirms that a significant portion of his fights were fixed, so one can't even be confident of the legitimatcy of his wins.


Do not let a few historians who had an ax to grind against Carnera fool you. I urge you to watch his fights. Carnera will surprise you. He had some skills. Jack Sharkey, Tommy Loughran, and George Godfrey are hall of fame fighters. Carnera beat them. If you take these three out of the mix, Carnera still beat plenty of other contenders. Guys like Ruiz, Rhaman, Hart, or Briggs would not likely do as well as Carnera did fighting the same opponents.

[janitor]

I'd like to know your opinions about Primo Carnera. Supposedly he was managed by the mob, and many of his fights were fixed. On the other hand Max Schmeling always thought Primo was a good technical boxer, and Jack Sharkey maintained til the day he died that Carnera legitimately knocked him out.
Some fans might be familiar with the movie The Harder They Fall. The movie is supposedly based on Carnera's career. The basic story is about a giant Argentinian peasant who is controlled by the mob, has all of his fights fixed, until he gets a shot at the champ(played by Max Baer in the movie), and suffers a horrific beating, and then is left penniless by the mobsters.
I have both the book and the movie, Toro Moreno, the main character is about 6'7 and 280lbs, in the book despite his size, we are constantly reminded about his complete lack of punching power, lack of reflexes, and how easily hurt he is despite his great size and physical strength. I cant imagine a guy of Primo Carnera's size not being able to hurt another heavyweight, especially back in the 1930's when most other heavyweights were only 6 ft tall and 190-200lbs.

Carnera was undoubtedly a legitimate champion.

Almost everybody agrees that the fights that established him as a contender and the fight where he won the title were on the level.

If he had not held the title you would have to recognise him as the outstanding contender of that period.

[janitor]

Outside the ring, Carnera was no dummy. He spoke 4 languages, and had some of his own businesses.

this is one aspect of Carnera that is often overlooked because he spoke poor English. In terms of his life after boxing he is one of the more industrious and sucesfull heavyweight champions.

[Dempsey1238]

The Schaaf fight was fix. I seen it. lol.

Yep Schaaf was such a great actor that he DIED in the ring. geez.

[Zakman]

The Schaaf fight was fix. I seen it. lol.

Yep Schaaf was such a great actor that he DIED in the ring. geez.

Some allege it was injuries he contracted in his fight with Max Baer several months earlier that led to this, and that Schaaf was, in effect, damaged goods PRIOR to fighting Carnera.

[mr. magoo]

I really don't know if Carnera's fights were fixed or not. I've heard claims over the years, but apparently he was nearly banned from the sport for almost killing Jack Sharkey in the ring. Therefore, I don't think his title fight was rigged.

[Dempsey1238]

I dont belive the Sharkey fight was fix. That was a good uppercut, that could take nearly any one short of a iron chin out. And Sharkey didnt relly have the best of chins.

[janitor]

Carnera alos becama a noted philanthopist later in life. The Primo Carnera foundation is still a registerd charity today.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[ChrisPontius]

this is one aspect of Carnera that is often overlooked because he spoke poor English. In terms of his life after boxing he is one of the more industrious and sucesfull heavyweight champions.

Glad to hear that. I though i read that when his boxing career was over, he was dropped like a brick by his promotors/supporters and left with bad health, no money and barely speaking the language.

[mr. magoo]

Glad to hear that. I though i read that when his boxing career was over, he was dropped like a brick by his promotors/supporters and left with bad health, no money and barely speaking the language.


Sounds a lot like Mike Tyson including the part about barely speaking the language.

[ChrisPontius]

Not really, Tyson has himself to blame.

[janitor]

Glad to hear that. I though i read that when his boxing career was over, he was dropped like a brick by his promotors/supporters and left with bad health, no money and barely speaking the language.

He was certainly droped like a brick by his sheister promotors but he had a career as a profesional wrestler where he actualy made a lot more money than he did boxing due to honest managment.

He also went into acting staring in a number of films and established a sucesfull ice cream franchise. He also went on to found a childrens charity.

[Duodenum]

Some allege it was injuries he contracted in his fight with Max Baer several months earlier that led to this, and that Schaaf was, in effect, damaged goods PRIOR to fighting Carnera.It's a fact that he was hospitalized with influenza, and got out of his bed to ill-advisedly face Primo on February 10, 1933, insisting to his manager that a contract was a contract. The autopsy confirmed that the Baer fight had no connection whatsoever to his death, only flu induced swelling of his brain. The February 27, 1933 issue of Time Magazine discussed the influenza Shaaf was afflicted with the previous month. Thus, Ernie's compromised ability to evade Carnera's blows resulted in his sustaining tremendous punishment over 13 rounds. It had been six months since Shaaf shared the ring with Baer, and he'd competed a total of 22 rounds in three fights since (winning the New England HW Title by knockout in the process).

Carnera bounced right up after his knockdowns at the hands of Baer, and sustained a fractured ankle in getting dropped the first time, by what may have been the hardest single punch Baer ever delivered. (Preem was hospitalized after the fight, with his leg in a cast, and Baer was photographed visiting Primo in his hospital room the next day, both smiling and clowning for the camera.) Primo's multiple knockdowns after the first one were more a manifestation of his fracture than a questionable chin. As hard as Baer hit, Carnera was not ever separated from his senses as Patterson was against Johansson and Liston. If his leg had not sustained a fracture which caused it to swell to twice it's normal size, Primo would have at least gone the distance with Baer. He won most of the rounds in which he wasn't floored, moving in to score short, quick combinations between Baer's looping shots.

Ultimately, Primo would do better against Louis than a peak Maxie was able to do (or Galento, Sharkey, Uzcudun or John Henry Lewis). Unlike the Larruper, Preem didn't lose to Paulino, Shaaf (who beat the crap out of Maxie in their 1930 fight, albeit a version of Baer reeling from the outcome of the Campbell tragedy), or Loughran.

Just how "chinny" was Carnera in his prime? When we write off the last ten knockdowns he sustained against Baer as the result of a broken ankle, we have the fourth round left hook bomb which Sharkly dropped him with in their 1931 bout, a punch which Primo immediately rose up from before shrewdly going back down to one knee for taking the benefit of a full count, the first massive right hand Baer dropped him with, which Carnera again got up from instantly, despite his fractured ankle, and the three sixth round knockdowns a deadly young Joe Louis inflicted on him, but none of which kept Primo down for the count. He was on his feet when Arthur Donovan decided to stop it. That's more than several of the Bomber's victims can say. After losing to Louis, Carnera had been dropped a total of five times in 90 bouts, of those knockdowns where a fractured ankle was clearly not a factor. The powerful George Godfrey failed to drop him after a five round pummeling and had to resort to fouling in frustration, which got him disqualified. (Godfrey had a penchant for delivering cup-denting low blows. With eight DQ losses, he puts Golota to shame.)

Primo's knockout of Sharkey is clearly legitimate. As the Gob is trying to get away from him, Preem pivots his right foot towards Sharkey, and drives straight up with the uppercut which takes him out.

Sharkey was floored five times in his first bout with Jimmy Maloney, nearly dropped by little Mickey Walker, and decked in the initial round of his first match after losing to Carnera, against King Levinski who decisioned Sharkey over ten rounds. (In two attempts over the ten round distance, Levinski was not able to floor Primo, losing both fights to Carnera.) Given Sharkey's own record of getting dropped, it's hardly a stretch to expect Primo could legitimately knock him out.

In Carnera's entire 103 fight career, no referee ever counted ten over his prostrate form, making Primo one of the very few heavyweights with over 100 matches to never have a full count tolled over him. (Ignore boxwreck's classification of the first Mussina bout as a "KO." The referee stopped it after Carnera had gotten up for the third time, when he was pushing 40.) Like Floyd Patterson, Primo always got up. Unlike Floyd, he also always beat the count.

Size alone was not responsible for Carnera's success, as he handily defeated Ray Impelletiere and Victor Campolo, two of the only heavyweights of his era who were bigger than he was. He was tough enough to decision Jimmy Maloney with a fractured rib (avenging an earlier points loss to Maloney), as well as hang in with his fractured ankle against Baer for ten rounds.

Primo was a good champion, who defended the title three times in less than a year against three legitimate contenders, rather than letting the title gather mothballs and cobwebs, as Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer and Jimmy Braddock did. Between Johnson in 1910 and Louis in 1938, he was the only one to defend it three times within a year, and not against sacrificial stiffs.

As big as he was, he was also conditioned well enough to wear down the much lighter and mobile Loughran over 15 rounds, and twice decision the rugged Uzcudun over the distance, taking eight of ten rounds in their first encounter.

He used his reach extremely well, something not true for all long-armed heavyweights, utilizing a pesky jab from long range. (Other tall heavyweights like Buddy Baer and Ed "Too Tall" Jones were not so proficient at jabbing from a distance.)

Yes, Primo Carnera was a legitimate champ.

[janitor]

Yes, Primo Carnera was a legitimate champ.

Lets look at it systematicaly.

Primo Carnera established himself as a challenger with a fifteen fight wining streak including wins over ranked contenders Art Lasky, King Levinsky and Earnie Schaff. I have not heard it implied by any of Carneras critics that any of these fifteen bouts was fixed.

So Carnera deserved his title shot and when he defeated Sharkey it was a minor upset not a big one.

So I dont see what the problem is.

[Mendoza]

It's a fact that he was hospitalized with influenza, and got out of his bed to ill-advisedly face Primo on February 10, 1933, insisting to his manager that a contract was a contract. The autopsy confirmed that the Baer fight had no connection whatsoever to his death, only flu induced swelling of his brain. The February 27, 1933 issue of Time Magazine discussed the influenza Shaaf was afflicted with the previous month. Thus, Ernie's compromised ability to evade Carnera's blows resulted in his sustaining tremendous punishment over 13 rounds. It had been six months since Shaaf shared the ring with Baer, and he's competed a total of 22 rounds in three fights since (winning the New England HW Title by knockout in the process).

Carnera bounced right up after his knockdowns at the hands of Baer, and sustained a fractured ankle in getting dropped the first time, by what may have been the hardest single punch Baer ever delivered. (Preem was hospitalized after the fight, with his leg in a cast, and Baer was photographed visiting Primo in his hospital room the next day, both smiling and clowning for the camera.) Primo's multiple knockdowns after the first one were more a manifestation of his fracture than a questionable chin. As hard as Baer hit, Carnera was not ever separated from his senses as Patterson was against Johansson and Liston. If his leg had not sustained a fracture which caused it to swell to twice it's normal size, Primo would have at least gone the distance with Baer. He won most of the rounds in which he wasn't floored, moving in to score short, quick combinations between Baer's looping shots.

Ultimately, Primo would do better against Louis than a peak Maxie was able to do (or Galento, Sharkey, Uzcudun or John Henry Lewis). Unlike the Larruper, Preem didn't lose to Paulino, Shaaf (who beat the crap out of Maxie in their 1930 fight, albeit a version of Baer reeling from the outcome of the Campbell tragedy), or Loughran.

Just how "chinny" was Carnera in his prime? When we write off the last ten knockdowns he sustained against Baer as the result of a broken ankle, we have the fourth round left hook bomb which Sharkly dropped him with in their 1931 bout, a punch which Primo immediately rose up from before shrewdly going back down to one knee for taking the benefit of a full count, the first massive right hand Baer dropped him with, which Carnera again got up from instantly, despite his fractured ankle, and the three sixth round knockdowns a deadly young Joe Louis inflicted on him, but none of which kept Primo down for the count. He was on his feet when Arthur Donovan decided to stop it. That's more than several of the Bomber's victims can say. After losing to Louis, Carnera had been dropped a total of five times in 90 bouts, of those knockdowns where a fractured ankle was clearly not a factor. The powerful George Godfrey failed to drop him after a five round pummeling and had to resort to fouling in frustration, which got him disqualified. (Godfrey had a penchant for delivering cup-denting low blows. With eight DQ losses, he puts Golota to shame.)

Primo's knockout of Sharkey is clearly legitimate. As the Gob is trying to get away from him, Preem pivots his right foot towards Sharkey, and drives straight up with the uppercut which takes him out.

Sharkey was floored five times in his first bout with Jimmy Maloney, nearly dropped by little Mickey Walker, and decked in the initial round of his first match after losing to Carnera, against King Levinski who decisioned Sharkey over ten rounds. (In two attempts over the ten round distance, Levinski was not able to floor Primo, losing both fights to Carnera.) Given Sharkey's own record of getting dropped, it's hardly a stretch to expect Primo could legitimately knock him out.

In Carnera's entire 103 fight career, no referee ever counted ten over his prostrate form, making Primo one of the very few heavyweights with over 100 matches to never have a full count tolled over him. (Ignore boxwreck's classification of the first Mussina bout as a "KO." The referee stopped it after Carnera had gotten up for the third time, when he was pushing 40.) Like Floyd Patterson, Primo always got up. Unlike Floyd, he also always beat the count.

Size alone was responsible for Carnera's success, as he handily defeated Ray Impelletiere and Victor Campolo, two of the only heavyweights of his era who were bigger than he was. He was tough enough to decision Jimmy Maloney with a fractured rib (avenging an earlier points loss to Maloney), as well as hang in with his fractured ankle against Baer for ten rounds.

Primo was a good champion, who defended the title three times in less than a year against three legitimate contenders, rather than letting the title gather mothballs and cobwebs, as Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer and Jimmy Braddock did. Between Johnson in 1910 and Louis in 1938, he was the only one to defend it three times within a year, and not against sacrificial stiffs.

As big as he was, he was also conditioned well enough to wear down the much lighter and mobile Loughran over 15 rounds, and twice decision the rugged Uzcudun over the distance, taking eight of ten rounds in their first encounter.

He used his reach extremely well, something not true for all long-armed heavyweights, utilizing a pesky jab from long range.

Yes, Primo Carnera was a legitimate champ.

Impressive information from one the best posters here. Well done.

[Duodenum]

Lets look at it systematicaly.

Primo Carnera established himself as a challenger with a fifteen fight wining streak including wins over ranked contenders Art Lasky, King Levinsky and Earnie Schaff. I have not heard it implied by any of Carneras critics that any of these fifteen bouts was fixed.

So Carnera deserved his title shot and when he defeated Sharkey it was a minor upset not a big one.

So I dont see what the problem is.Well, I believe the problem has a lot to do with second hand thinking. Much of the negative baloney about Carnera came from a time when sportswriters were the gatekeepers of information about boxing. Unlike us, they didn't always have the luxury of readily viewable footage, and it probably didn't occur to them that future generations would have an opportunity to use motion pictures in the privacy of their own homes, to form their own judgements. Even so, most of us still don't have the luxury of time necessary to evaluate the available material when accessible. So it's obviously more convenient and time efficient to simply accept Paul Gallico's "Pity the Poor Giant" drivel written after the fact, as fact, rather than read what was actually written about Carnera during his championship run from a multitude of first-hand sources, and compare it against available footage. (By the way, it seems Gallico had trouble counting. Primo fell down eleven times against Baer, not thirteen, as Gallico wrote.)

If Primo Carnera was as clumsily uncoordinated and ungainly as Paul Gallico depicts him as, then how come I haven't seen any footage of him tripping over his own two huge feet, or slipping to the canvas in the leather soled boxing shoes of the day, in the footage of his two bouts with Sharkey, the one with Loughran, or Baer, or Gains, or Shaaf, or any other clips? We see the clutzy Ali slip to the deck against Frazier and Wepner (among others), in his rubber soled shoes, but I'll concede that's an unfair comparison, since we all know Ali had two left feet. (Still, it was rather funny to see Muhammad nearly fall out of the ring in the Bugner rematch before Joe saved him from taking a tumble.)

Budd Schulberg didn't help matters with 1947's, "The Harder They Fall," and Carnera's failed lawsuit against such a high profile story and movie helped to further exacerbate matters.

Additionally, as a citizen of Fascist Italy, Carnera may have been the victim of some jingoistic prejudices in the pre WW II English speaking world (much as Schmeling was).

Of course Gallico wrote his obituary of Primo in 1947, not bothering to wait for Carnera to restore himself to financial success through the cinema, and further athletic achievement as a wrestling attraction. Muckrakers and bottom feeders like Gallico have no time for stories of redemption and happy endings, such as how Primo provided for the future of his children out of having nothing left from boxing and WW II, save his name, intelligence, and championship character. (As his son, Umberto Carnera, M.D., and daughter, Giovanna Maria Carnera, M.S., can attest.) As a family man, he hardly could have done any better.

[Duodenum]

:bump

[janitor]

Of course Gallico wrote his obituary of Primo in 1947, not bothering to wait for Carnera to restore himself to financial success through the cinema, and further athletic achievement as a wrestling attraction. Muckrakers and bottom feeders like Gallico have no time for stories of redemption and happy endings, such as how Primo provided for the future of his children out of having nothing left from boxing and WW II, save his name, intelligence, and championship character. (As his son, Umberto Carnera, M.D., and daughter, Giovanna Maria Carnera, M.S., can attest.) As a family man, he hardly could have done any better.

In the ring Carnera was an overachiever.

Some champs leave boxing with a weak hand and some with a strong hand. Carnera is definitely a man who left it with a weak hand and played it well.

As his son, Umberto Carnera, M.D., and daughter, Giovanna Maria Carnera, M.S., (and the beneficiaries of the Carnera foundation) can attest.

[ChrisPontius]

It's a fact that he was hospitalized with influenza, and got out of his bed to ill-advisedly face Primo on February 10, 1933, insisting to his manager that a contract was a contract. The autopsy confirmed that the Baer fight had no connection whatsoever to his death, only flu induced swelling of his brain. The February 27, 1933 issue of Time Magazine discussed the influenza Shaaf was afflicted with the previous month. Thus, Ernie's compromised ability to evade Carnera's blows resulted in his sustaining tremendous punishment over 13 rounds. It had been six months since Shaaf shared the ring with Baer, and he'd competed a total of 22 rounds in three fights since (winning the New England HW Title by knockout in the process).

Carnera bounced right up after his knockdowns at the hands of Baer, and sustained a fractured ankle in getting dropped the first time, by what may have been the hardest single punch Baer ever delivered. (Preem was hospitalized after the fight, with his leg in a cast, and Baer was photographed visiting Primo in his hospital room the next day, both smiling and clowning for the camera.) Primo's multiple knockdowns after the first one were more a manifestation of his fracture than a questionable chin. As hard as Baer hit, Carnera was not ever separated from his senses as Patterson was against Johansson and Liston. If his leg had not sustained a fracture which caused it to swell to twice it's normal size, Primo would have at least gone the distance with Baer. He won most of the rounds in which he wasn't floored, moving in to score short, quick combinations between Baer's looping shots.

Ultimately, Primo would do better against Louis than a peak Maxie was able to do (or Galento, Sharkey, Uzcudun or John Henry Lewis). Unlike the Larruper, Preem didn't lose to Paulino, Shaaf (who beat the crap out of Maxie in their 1930 fight, albeit a version of Baer reeling from the outcome of the Campbell tragedy), or Loughran.

Just how "chinny" was Carnera in his prime? When we write off the last ten knockdowns he sustained against Baer as the result of a broken ankle, we have the fourth round left hook bomb which Sharkly dropped him with in their 1931 bout, a punch which Primo immediately rose up from before shrewdly going back down to one knee for taking the benefit of a full count, the first massive right hand Baer dropped him with, which Carnera again got up from instantly, despite his fractured ankle, and the three sixth round knockdowns a deadly young Joe Louis inflicted on him, but none of which kept Primo down for the count. He was on his feet when Arthur Donovan decided to stop it. That's more than several of the Bomber's victims can say. After losing to Louis, Carnera had been dropped a total of five times in 90 bouts, of those knockdowns where a fractured ankle was clearly not a factor. The powerful George Godfrey failed to drop him after a five round pummeling and had to resort to fouling in frustration, which got him disqualified. (Godfrey had a penchant for delivering cup-denting low blows. With eight DQ losses, he puts Golota to shame.)

Primo's knockout of Sharkey is clearly legitimate. As the Gob is trying to get away from him, Preem pivots his right foot towards Sharkey, and drives straight up with the uppercut which takes him out.

Sharkey was floored five times in his first bout with Jimmy Maloney, nearly dropped by little Mickey Walker, and decked in the initial round of his first match after losing to Carnera, against King Levinski who decisioned Sharkey over ten rounds. (In two attempts over the ten round distance, Levinski was not able to floor Primo, losing both fights to Carnera.) Given Sharkey's own record of getting dropped, it's hardly a stretch to expect Primo could legitimately knock him out.

In Carnera's entire 103 fight career, no referee ever counted ten over his prostrate form, making Primo one of the very few heavyweights with over 100 matches to never have a full count tolled over him. (Ignore boxwreck's classification of the first Mussina bout as a "KO." The referee stopped it after Carnera had gotten up for the third time, when he was pushing 40.) Like Floyd Patterson, Primo always got up. Unlike Floyd, he also always beat the count.

Size alone was not responsible for Carnera's success, as he handily defeated Ray Impelletiere and Victor Campolo, two of the only heavyweights of his era who were bigger than he was. He was tough enough to decision Jimmy Maloney with a fractured rib (avenging an earlier points loss to Maloney), as well as hang in with his fractured ankle against Baer for ten rounds.

Primo was a good champion, who defended the title three times in less than a year against three legitimate contenders, rather than letting the title gather mothballs and cobwebs, as Jack Johnson, Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer and Jimmy Braddock did. Between Johnson in 1910 and Louis in 1938, he was the only one to defend it three times within a year, and not against sacrificial stiffs.

As big as he was, he was also conditioned well enough to wear down the much lighter and mobile Loughran over 15 rounds, and twice decision the rugged Uzcudun over the distance, taking eight of ten rounds in their first encounter.

He used his reach extremely well, something not true for all long-armed heavyweights, utilizing a pesky jab from long range. (Other tall heavyweights like Buddy Baer and Ed "Too Tall" Jones were not so proficient at jabbing from a distance.)

Yes, Primo Carnera was a legitimate champ.

Good post, i never thought the title winning fight against Sharkey looked much like a fix and i suspect this was brought up in a time when nearly no one had access to the footage. I do find that ankle-story a bit of an excuse, though. Sometimes a guy gets hit hard and even though he gets up, he isn't able to get his senses back before the round ends. As i remember, Carnera was floored very often early in one or two rounds and often in one round late. How did he do in those rounds in between? I've only seen highlights of it.

[Luigi1985]

Impressive information from one the best posters here. Well done.


Ditto! Great post from an even greater poster! Good to hear that Carnera gets the respect he deserves, I´m tired of people who only repeat what they heard (Carnera was a bum? OK, I also say this...)...

[Luigi1985]

This is my take on it as well, though Carnera would be in my top 70, not top 50. The alleged fixed fights on Carnera were stories given to discredit a foreign born fighter who defeated a USA born Champion. Carnera vs Sharkey was not a fix. I have seen the fight many times. Sharkey sort of bounces off the ropes right into a Carnera uppercut. If historians want to talk about a " fixed fight " they should focus on one Carnera lost. I'm talking about the Carnera vs Pedora fight.

Here's the quick news flash from Box Rec:



Some in boxing wanted to get rid of Carnera. One writer said Carnera should only fight in a Super Dreadnaught division ( 250 pounds and up ) , because he was too big and beating many skilled, but smaller fighters. While Carnera was certainly big, he wasn't a stiff. He was rather athletic for a big man, and had unusually good stamina for a person so large. His main draw back was lack of defense which meant he took beating vs best punchers he faced in Baer and Louis. There can be no doubting Carnera's heart in these fights. While Carnera did not have a great chin, it wasn't all that bad either.

Outside the ring, Carnera was no dummy. He spoke 4 languages, and had some of his own businesses. Looking back, Carnera had quite a life. Born to poor parents who could not afford him, Carnera grew up dirt poor with his grandparents. He ran away from his home land to join a circus, then was discovered by a promoter, and made it all the way to heavyweight champion of the world.



It´s good that you mentioned the Poreda-fight, I know about that fight and it seems that it was one of the biggest robberies ever, good that you post it here. I also agree with your post. All in all, IMO Carnera has a much worse fame than he deserves, because of the following reasons: 1: He was too big, heavy and strong, especially for that time. Everyone had the David and Goliath- syndrome, everyone wanted to see the giant losing (similar to Valuev today). 2: Political backgrounds, because of Italy´s facist scene he was a victim similar to Schmeling (only that Max got hyped because he beat Louis, the greatest HW ever at that time). 3: People thaught, because he had connections to the mob (like most elite fighters back in those days) and he was Italian, that all of his wins were fixed, and his losses were when the opponents didn´t agree with the fix or so...


But it´s cool to see that 90 % of today people (at least here at ESB) recognized that Carnera was a very good fighter, of course not great, but a good champion.

[mattdonnellon]

Carnera's record is one of the great enigmas for the boxing researcher. leon See, Carneras early manager had a falling out with Carnera's camp and produced a damning book "La mystere Carnera" . In this he lists the arranged(fixed fights) of Primo. The Sebillo, Thomas, Regirello, Islas, Nilles, Humbeeck, Thomas(2), Barrick, Nicolaieff are all claimed as fixed. The lost to Diener on a foul was genuine as was the later six round win.
Bouquillon and the two Stribling contests are claimed fixes as are all the following.Peterson, Rioux, Owens, Martin, Sigman, Erickson, Lodge, Clark(maybe) Montgomery, Wiggins, Zavita, Trafton, McAuliffe, Clisby and Christner.
The wins over Chevalier and Godfrey were classed as genuine. Affairs become more mixed after this. Bearcat Wright, McCarthy, Gross, Torriani and Gorman were the only definite arranged fights until the end of 1931 when the record ceases.
If this story of See's is correct Primo still defeated on the level several good HW's in Maloney, Campolo, Levinsky, Diener, Wiggins, Cook, Uzcuden, and Hansen. His losses to Maloney and Poreda were robberys and his good run to the title has allready been highlighted. Even after the loss to Louis he scored a good win over Neusell. In 1936 Leroy Haynes effectively ended his career.
This record added to the film evidence that he could box a bit convinces me that he deserves a reasonable rating but I would'nt give him too much credit for his title defences over faded Uzcuden and Loughran, a little credit but not too much.

[janitor]

Carnera's record is one of the great enigmas for the boxing researcher. leon See, Carneras early manager had a falling out with Carnera's camp and produced a damning book "La mystere Carnera" . In this he lists the arranged(fixed fights) of Primo. The Sebillo, Thomas, Regirello, Islas, Nilles, Humbeeck, Thomas(2), Barrick, Nicolaieff are all claimed as fixed. The lost to Diener on a foul was genuine as was the later six round win.
Bouquillon and the two Stribling contests are claimed fixes as are all the following.Peterson, Rioux, Owens, Martin, Sigman, Erickson, Lodge, Clark(maybe) Montgomery, Wiggins, Zavita, Trafton, McAuliffe, Clisby and Christner.
The wins over Chevalier and Godfrey were classed as genuine. Affairs become more mixed after this. Bearcat Wright, McCarthy, Gross, Torriani and Gorman were the only definite arranged fights until the end of 1931 when the record ceases.
If this story of See's is correct Primo still defeated on the level several good HW's in Maloney, Campolo, Levinsky, Diener, Wiggins, Cook, Uzcuden, and Hansen. His losses to Maloney and Poreda were robberys and his good run to the title has allready been highlighted. Even after the loss to Louis he scored a good win over Neusell. In 1936 Leroy Haynes effectively ended his career.
This record added to the film evidence that he could box a bit convinces me that he deserves a reasonable rating but I would'nt give him too much credit for his title defences over faded Uzcuden and Loughran, a little credit but not too much.

See was a verry biter man and what he says must be taken with a grain of salt.

There is no way in hell that the Bearcat Wright fight was arranged for example.

[apollack]

I say legit. Sure he's a B champion, but a champ nevertheless. He was a really big dude, strong and tall and a pretty good jab and more fluid than you might expect for a guy that massive and muscle bound looking. Not saying he was smooth or a cutie either, but he wasn't horrid. I saw the first Sharkey fight and Carnera put up a good fight, although a losing effort. He had a lot of fights against decent guys. I've never been much of a Sharkey fan, so can I see a guy 260 pounds landing a big uppercut to knock out a 200 pound guy without a whole lot of power (and who might have gotten the title on a gift decision against Schmeling)? Yes. I do know that guys like Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, and Max Schmeling all lasted 4 rounds or less with Joe Louis at one point or another, and that Carnera lasted 6 rounds. Anyone who can last 6 rounds with Joe Louis knows something about boxing and isn't a fraud.

[mattdonnellon]

See was a verry biter man and what he says must be taken with a grain of salt.

There is no way in hell that the Bearcat Wright fight was arranged for example.
The are several holes in See's story but I'm just relating it for information. I mean why buy Torranni off?!

[Duodenum]

Since my last post about Carnera on this thread, I have reviewed the entire footage of Baer/Carnera available on-line. (As rounds three and eight are not included in those clips, I've reconstructed them from memory.)

Now, bear in mind that Baer/Carnera was scored on the rounds system, with no additional points awarded for multiple knockdowns in a round. My scoring is as follows:

Round one-----Baer
Round two-----Baer
Round three--- Baer
Round four-----Carnera
Round five-----Carnera
Round six------Carnera
Round seven---Carnera
Round eight----Carnera
Round nine-----Carnera
Round ten------Baer

Entering the final round eleven, Carnera was actually leading Baer,
6-4-0 in rounds! (Carnera's lead is a fact that was also confirmed by boxwreck, to their eternal credit.)

About ten seconds before the end of round six, Primo nearly fell down as a result of his injured right ankle (this is at 1:51 on the youtube clip of that action). Nonetheless, he did far better on his bad ankle than Benitez did against Davey Moore. (Wilfred retired at the end of that round against Moore.)

With an ankle that was swollen to twice it's normal size after the bout (as noted by Time Magazine), Carnera was forced to box Baer primarily off of his front foot. Yet, his frequently lunging long jabs were effective against Baer, allowing Primo to score while evading Baer's attempts to counter, and occasionally snapping his head back. Maxie was retreating through most of the bout, and had very few good moments against Carnera which didn't involve a knockdown.

In close, Primo was clubbing Baer with heavy right hands to the ribs, and mauling him about, roughhousing him very physically. He was also throwing shorter and tighter punches in close, especially when he had Maxie pinned against the ropes. Baer was getting tired entering the tenth round, just as Loughran did when going into the championship stretch with Primo, and Carnera appeared to have forged ahead in rounds. Maxie was staring to stumble backwards, no longer skipping gracefully in reverse.

He finally nailed Primo with a roundhouse right behind Carnera's ear, and the defending champion was clearly wobbled seriously. Another looping right, and Primo went down. After a second tenth round knockdown, Baer clocked him with a massive right cross less than ten seconds before round ten ended. While Carnera kept his feet, and weathered the four half hearted follow-up punches Maxie concluded the round with, he dazedly tailed Baer back to Max's corner (much as a stunned and exhausted Loughran shadowed Primo back to his after round 14, where a considerate and charitable Carnera cornerman revived Tommy with a splash of cold spongewater), until Primo's handlers reached him from across the ring.

I also checked out the Carnera/Gains clip on youtube. Yeah, Gains took the decision, but guess what? Fighting off the ropes, Primo knocked the reigning British Empire HW Champion on his ass with a right hand for a referee ruled flash knockdown! (Yes, the knockdown was legitimate, and you can see Jack Hart toll a count of one before Gains bounced back up, at 2:09 on the youtube clip.)

When I look at Gains/Carnera, Carnera/Sharkey I & II, Carnera/Schaaf, and Carnera/Loughran, then compare all that to Baer/Galento, Baer/Comiskey, Nova/Baer I & II, Louis/Baer, Braddock/Baer and other footage of both boxers, I find myself arriving at a surprising conclusion. Max Baer was fortunate that Carnera's ankle was injured severely enough in that first round to require hospitalization and a plaster cast after the fight! Max Baer was also fortunate that there was no return clause for an immediate rematch!

Even on one bad leg, Primo outboxed Baer for six consecutive rounds, and Max was never close to putting Carnera down for the count. (In fact, Primo got up from several of those knockdowns within three seconds.) What would have happened if Carnera had finished that match on two uninjured legs?

I can tell you one thing with absolute confidence. Max Baer could not have won a legitimate 15 round decision over Primo Carnera in a match scored on the rounds system, as Primo's jab was far better suited for winning time limit verdicts than Maxie's roundhouse swings. He would have had to take the Italian out again to win a rematch. Could Baer have beaten Carnera in a rematch? I would not bet money on it!

[janitor]

I find myself arriving at a surprising conclusion. Max Baer was fortunate that Carnera's ankle was injured severely enough in that first round to require hospitalization and a plaster cast after the fight! Max Baer was also fortunate that there was no return clause for an immediate rematch!

Even on one bad leg, Primo outboxed Baer for six consecutive rounds, and Max was never close to putting Carnera down for the count. (In fact, Primo got up from several of those knockdowns within three seconds.) What would have happened if Carnera had finished that match on two uninjured legs?

I can tell you one thing with absolute confidence. Max Baer could not have won a legitimate 15 round decision over Primo Carnera in a match scored on the rounds system, as Primo's jab was far better suited for winning time limit verdicts than Maxie's roundhouse swings. He would have had to take the Italian out again to win a rematch. Could Baer have beaten Carnera in a rematch? I would not bet money on it!

It is also worth noting that Carnera has a better record than Baer vs common oponents.

Their common opponents are-

Joe Louis
Tommy Loughran
Earnie Schaff
Paulino Uzcudun
King Levinski

Baer is 3-4 vs this group while Carnera is 6-1 with the only loss coming to Louis.

[mcvey]

Since my last post about Carnera on this thread, I have reviewed the entire footage of Baer/Carnera available on-line. (As rounds three and eight are not included in those clips, I've reconstructed them from memory.)

Now, bear in mind that Baer/Carnera was scored on the rounds system, with no additional points awarded for multiple knockdowns in a round. My scoring is as follows:

Round one-----Baer
Round two-----Baer
Round three--- Baer
Round four-----Carnera
Round five-----Carnera
Round six------Carnera
Round seven---Carnera
Round eight----Carnera
Round nine-----Carnera
Round ten------Baer

Entering the final round eleven, Carnera was actually leading Baer,
6-4-0 in rounds! (Carnera's lead is a fact that was also confirmed by boxwreck, to their eternal credit.)

About ten seconds before the end of round six, Primo nearly fell down as a result of his injured right ankle (this is at 1:51 on the youtube clip of that action). Nonetheless, he did far better on his bad ankle than Benitez did against Davey Moore. (Wilfred retired at the end of that round against Moore.)

With an ankle that was swollen to twice it's normal size after the bout (as noted by Time Magazine), Carnera was forced to box Baer primarily off of his front foot. Yet, his frequently lunging long jabs were effective against Baer, allowing Primo to score while evading Baer's attempts to counter, and occasionally snapping his head back. Maxie was retreating through most of the bout, and had very few good moments against Carnera which didn't involve a knockdown.

In close, Primo was clubbing Baer with heavy right hands to the ribs, and mauling him about, roughhousing him very physically. He was also throwing shorter and tighter punches in close, especially when he had Maxie pinned against the ropes. Baer was getting tired entering the tenth round, just as Loughran did when going into the championship stretch with Primo, and Carnera appeared to have forged ahead in rounds. Maxie was staring to stumble backwards, no longer skipping gracefully in reverse.

He finally nailed Primo with a roundhouse right behind Carnera's ear, and the defending champion was clearly wobbled seriously. Another looping right, and Primo went down. After a second tenth round knockdown, Baer clocked him with a massive right cross less than ten seconds before round ten ended. While Carnera kept his feet, and weathered the four half hearted follow-up punches Maxie concluded the round with, he dazedly tailed Baer back to Max's corner (much as a stunned and exhausted Loughran shadowed Primo back to his after round 14, where a considerate and charitable Carnera cornerman revived Tommy with a splash of cold spongewater), until Primo's handlers reached him from across the ring.

I also checked out the Carnera/Gains clip on youtube. Yeah, Gains took the decision, but guess what? Fighting off the ropes, Primo knocked the reigning British Empire HW Champion on his ass with a right hand for a referee ruled flash knockdown! (Yes, the knockdown was legitimate, and you can see Jack Hart toll a count of one before Gains bounced back up, at 2:09 on the youtube clip.)

When I look at Gains/Carnera, Carnera/Sharkey I & II, Carnera/Schaaf, and Carnera/Loughran, then compare all that to Baer/Galento, Baer/Comiskey, Nova/Baer I & II, Louis/Baer, Braddock/Baer and other footage of both boxers, I find myself arriving at a surprising conclusion. Max Baer was fortunate that Carnera's ankle was injured severely enough in that first round to require hospitalization and a plaster cast after the fight! Max Baer was also fortunate that there was no return clause for an immediate rematch!

Even on one bad leg, Primo outboxed Baer for six consecutive rounds, and Max was never close to putting Carnera down for the count. (In fact, Primo got up from several of those knockdowns within three seconds.) What would have happened if Carnera had finished that match on two uninjured legs?

I can tell you one thing with absolute confidence. Max Baer could not have won a legitimate 15 round decision over Primo Carnera in a match scored on the rounds system, as Primo's jab was far better suited for winning time limit verdicts than Maxie's roundhouse swings. He would have had to take the Italian out again to win a rematch. Could Baer have beaten Carnera in a rematch? I would not bet money on it!
Gains ,who was an extremely modest man ,told my Father that he didnt have much trouble with Carnera,he said he was mobile for a big man ,but lacked power.

[Mendoza]

Gains ,who was an extremely modest man ,told my Father that he didnt have much trouble with Carnera,he said he was mobile for a big man ,but lacked power.

I have not seen Gains vs Carerna in a while, but I do remember the action being pretty close in the clips I saw with Gains being slightly the better.

Also, what was up with the gloves in this match. Someone ( could be Gains ) had giant pillow attached to his fists for defense.

I think Carnera had good power, but Gains was the type that was hard to land flush on.

[Duodenum]

Gains ,who was an extremely modest man ,told my Father that he didnt have much trouble with Carnera,he said he was mobile for a big man ,but lacked power.Essentially, that's what the footage reveals. When Primo had his back to the ropes, he was frequently able to adroitly and fluidly outmaneuver Gains, spinning him cleverly to reverse their positions. However, he didn't appear to have any snap on his punches, no evident demonstration of any pop behind his blows. Nor could he have been trained to develop that quality in his shots, with the possible exception of his jab, judging from the clips I've seen. Of course mobility, reach and a good jab can take a boxer a long way, and Carnera did pretty well.

Gains outboxed Primo by getting inside the arms of the bigger man, and tagging him with faster and straighter punches. Carnera actually had this same advantage against Baer (although Maxie got him coming over the top). Remarkably enough, it was Carnera in close who produced the shorter and sharper punching between Baer's arms. His quickness was actually superior, and he in fact got the better of some furious exchanges in the middle rounds.

Even Paul Gallico grudgingly acknowledged how Primo eventually evolved through sheer weight of experience alone. ("It was not until late in his career, when in spite of himself he learned something through sheer experience and number of fights, that he ever knocked anybody out on the level." Well, duh! It's kind of hard to go the distance before an audience with opponents like Sharkey, Uzcudun, Maloney, Gains, Levinski, Loughran, Campolo, Lasky, or share the ring with Baer, Stribling, Impelletiere, Shaaf, Louis and numerous 100 fight veterans, and not learn something about boxing, even with negligent tutelage and set-ups.)

It's quite a contrast to read Gallico's "Pity the Poor Giant," in my copy of "The Fireside Book of Boxing," and simultaneously evaluate the movie films or on-line clips of Carnera in action. Fuck Paul Gallico. Like Bert Sugar, I don't think it occurred to him that so many of us would have the chance to study the footage and decide his true merits and weaknesses for ourselves.

Primo tagged Maxie with a number of double jabs during their contest. 40 seconds into round six he outscored Baer in a furious exchange Max intitiated, which Carnera concluded by driving Maxie off him with a left hook. Nearly two minutes into round nine, Primo snapped Baer's head with a double jab as he backed away to the ropes, then drove the stalking Larruper back out to ring center. A few seconds later he double jabbed Max again, as he was backing away towards his own corner, and followed it up with a right uppercut-left hook-right uppercut combination, before placing his hands on Baer's broad shoulders, and shoving Maxie away back to ring center, al la Foreman, in a virtuous display of physical strength. These are among his best moments in that title change.

He was continually double jabbing Baer, flicking out that pesky swipe of his before leaning back to slip Max's counters. Carnera made Baer miss an awful lot of punches in that fight, but his height make him susceptible to the free swinging Maxie's wide looping shots. Carnera's showing clearly demonstrated how the shorter and faster ringwise Loughran was able to jab Baer silly., amd also how Primo was able to beat Tommy where Max failed. I heartily recommend that anybody else with the time and interest to view Baer/Carnera, and other Carnera footage, do so, and form their own assessment of Primo, rather than rely on hearsay from other sources.

[mcvey]

Essentially, that's what the footage reveals. When Primo had his back to the ropes, he was frequently able to adroitly and fluidly outmaneuver Gains, spinning him cleverly to reverse their positions. However, he didn't appear to have any snap on his punches, no evident demonstration of any pop behind his blows. Nor could he have been trained to develop that quality in his shots, with the possible exception of his jab, judging from the clips I've seen. Of course mobility, reach and a good jab can take a boxer a long way, and Carnera did pretty well.

Gains outboxed Primo by getting inside the arms of the bigger man, and tagging him with faster and straighter punches. Carnera actually had this same advantage against Baer (although Maxie got him coming over the top). Remarkably enough, it was Carnera in close who produced the shorter and sharper punching between Baer's arms. His quickness was actually superior, and he in fact got the better of some furious exchanges in the middle rounds.

Even Paul Gallico grudgingly acknowledged how Primo eventually evolved through sheer weight of experience alone. ("It was not until late in his career, when in spite of himself he learned something through sheer experience and number of fights, that he ever knocked anybody out on the level." Well, duh! It's kind of hard to go the distance before an audience with opponents like Sharkey, Uzcudun, Maloney, Gains, Levinski, Loughran, Campolo, Lasky, or share the ring with Baer, Stribling, Impelletiere, Shaaf, Louis and numerous 100 fight veterans, and not learn something about boxing, even with negligent tutelage and set-ups.)

It's quite a contrast to read Gallico's "Pity the Poor Giant," in my copy of "The Fireside Book of Boxing," and simultaneously evaluate the movie films or on-line clips of Carnera in action. Fuck Paul Gallico. Like Bert Sugar, I don't think it occurred to him that so many of us would have the chance to study the footage and decide his true merits and weaknesses for ourselves.

Primo tagged Maxie with a number of double jabs during their contest. 40 seconds into round six he outscored Baer in a furious exchange Max intitiated, which Carnera concluded by driving Maxie off him with a left hook. Nearly two minutes into round nine, Primo snapped Baer's head with a double jab as he backed away to the ropes, then drove the stalking Larruper back out to ring center. A few seconds later he double jabbed Max again, as he was backing away towards his own corner, and followed it up with a right uppercut-left hook-right uppercut combination, before placing his hands on Baer's broad shoulders, and shoving Maxie away back to ring center, al la Foreman, in a virtuous display of physical strength. These are among his best moments in that title change.

He was continually double jabbing Baer, flicking out that pesky swipe of his before leaning back to slip Max's counters. Carnera made Baer miss an awful lot of punches in that fight, but his height make him susceptible to the free swinging Maxie's wide looping shots. Carnera's showing clearly demonstrated how the shorter and faster ringwise Loughran was able to jab Baer silly., amd also how Primo was able to beat Tommy where Max failed. I heartily recommend that anybody else with the time and interest to view Baer/Carnera, and other Carnera footage, do so, and form their own assessment of Primo, rather than rely on hearsay from other sources.
As you say Baer wasa sucker for a jab as Loughran and Braddock proved,Max had great power a top chin but was crude when it came to boxing ability.
In fairness to Gallico he did see a lot of Carnera,I think Primo may be enjoying a resurge at the moment,from being under appreciated,he now gets kudos ,that perhaps are un merited,for example ,he has a great ko %, but no historian rates him as a ko puncher,does that tell us something about his career?

[Duodenum]

As you say Baer wasa sucker for a jab as Loughran and Braddock proved,Max had great power a top chin but was crude when it came to boxing ability.
In fairness to Gallico he did see a lot of Carnera,I think Primo may be enjoying a resurge at the moment,from being under appreciated,he now gets kudos ,that perhaps are un merited,for example ,he has a great ko %, but no historian rates him as a ko puncher,does that tell us something about his career?It's for this reason that I tend to focus instead on Primo's decision wins over Levinski (twice), Uzcudun (twice), Campolo, Maloney, January 1928 Ring Magazine coverboy Pierre Charles, and other noteworthy opponents he outpointed over the distance. Against Loughran, the bigger and heavier man wore down the mobile and much lighter sweet boxing veteran of 15 round matches. How can performances like this be faked? When Carnera was finished with Tommy in Miami, he looked good to go for another 15 rounds, and this was while 20 pounds overweight! Amazing.

It would be interesting to read what Gallico was writing about Carnera while Primo was actually on top, or climbing the ladder to get there. Dirges like "Pity the Poor Giant" are easy to compose after the fact, but was this the same tune Gallico was playing while Carnera was successfully defending his title against Uzcudun and Loughran?

[mcvey]

I beleive the fights you mentioned were legit,but it must be mentioned that Loughran was slightly past his best and was conceding 84 lbs to Carnera ,also check out Uzcuduns weight against Primo,229 1/4 was much too heavy for him ,the pictures of the fight show him to be fat for this fight.at the time it was the highest amount of weight for two boxers in a title fight.

[Duodenum]

I beleive the fights you mentioned were legit,but it must be mentioned that Loughran was slightly past his best and was conceding 84 lbs to Carnera ,also check out Uzcuduns weight against Primo,229 1/4 was much too heavy for him ,the pictures of the fight show him to be fat for this fight.at the time it was the highest amount of weight for two boxers in a title fight.Yeah, and isn't it ridiculous that Paulino was so fat for his all-Latin title fight rematch with Primo on Carnera's home turf, when he couldn't even decision the big Italian in Spain?

As for Loughran, he did have a wealth of experience, was coming off a 15 round decision win over Sharkey (avenging the biggest knockout win of Sharkey's career) a ten round win against Impelletiere, and would shortly go on to decision Godoy over 12 rounds in Buenos Aires, Al Ettore (who himself was one match away from embarking on an eleven bout win streak over opponents with winning records, including an eight round knockout over a nearly 22 year old Jersey Joe Walcott, and three wins over soon to be two time Carnera conquerer Leroy Haynes), as well as two more points wins over skyscraper Impelletiere.

So sure, Tommy may have been slightly past his best, but he was still an excellent world class performer, who was also able to compete on absolutely equal terms with Johnny Risko, Tommy Farr, Walter Neusel and future Louis title challenger Al McCoy. Loughran was hardly a washed up sacrificial token offering at the time he challenged Primo, but a worthy contender who had earned and richly deserved his title shot.

If Carnera had been more aggressive, or if the bout had been scheduled for 20 rounds, he would have taken Tommy out. (He really did have Loughran on "Queer Street" at the end of round 14.) No, I give Primo full credit for Loughran. He was the last one who even came close to stopping Tommy before the final bell, and the Philly Phantom had enough left in the tank to go the 12 round distance seven more times in his career. (And I have no doubt that Max Baer breathed a deep sigh of relief that he wouldn't have to challenge a former conquerer to try winning the big enchilada.)

[mcvey]

Yeah, and isn't it ridiculous that Paulino was so fat for his all-Latin title fight rematch with Primo on Carnera's home turf, when he couldn't even decision the big Italian in Spain?

As for Loughran, he did have a wealth of experience, was coming off a 15 round decision win over Sharkey (avenging the biggest knockout win of Sharkey's career) a ten round win against Impelletiere, and would shortly go on to decision Godoy over 12 rounds in Buenos Aires, Al Ettore (who himself was one match away from embarking on an eleven bout win streak over opponents with winning records, including an eight round knockout over a nearly 22 year old Jersey Joe Walcott, and three wins over soon to be two time Carnera conquerer Leroy Haynes), as well as two more points wins over skyscraper Impelletiere.

So sure, Tommy may have been slightly past his best, but he was still an excellent world class performer, who was also able to compete on absolutely equal terms with Johnny Risko, Tommy Farr, Walter Neusel and future Louis title challenger Al McCoy. Loughran was hardly a washed up sacrificial token offering at the time he challenged Primo, but a worthy contender who had earned and richly deserved his title shot.

If Carnera had been more aggressive, or if the bout had been scheduled for 20 rounds, he would have taken Tommy out. (He really did have Loughran on "Queer Street" at the end of round 14.) No, I give Primo full credit for Loughran. He was the last one who even came close to stopping Tommy before the final bell, and the Philly Phantom had enough left in the tank to go the 12 round distance seven more times in his career. (And I have no doubt that Max Baer breathed a deep sigh of relief that he wouldn't have to challenge a former conquerer to try winning the big enchilada.)
In reply to your sarcastic post .I agreed that Carneras wins over those you mentioned were legit,but added that Carnera had an 84lb weight advantage over Loughran,and that Uzcudun was over weight for his title shot,is there any part of that statement that is inaccurate?
The Sharkey return match with Loughran was Sharkeys last fight before retiring.[he subsequently came back].Sharkey was coming off a losing streak having been stopped by Carnera and decisioned by King Levinsky,he had lost motivation ,and desire when he fought Loughran the second time.You talk about the biggest ko of Sharkeys career,that wouldnt take too long to find would it? he only had 13 in 53 fights.To finish you can defend Carnera as you wish ,I wasnt trying to tear him down ,just being cautious about the revisionism ,that seems to be surrounding his career at present.You say loughran was on queer street during the fight with Carnera .Loughran actually wobble Carnera twice during the fight,in the 4th and10 th rounds ,and Loughran had no power to speak of due to bad hands.Carnera must be given credit for his wins over,Levinsky,Campolo,Impellietirre,Neusal,etc.but I dont think he can go down as one of the better Champs,though at the rate he is going I can see him vying with Ali for top spot in a year or so!Carnera ,for me was not that great,a mechanical boxer ,who didnt really punch his weight ,but who had respectable speed for his size,and a ton of heart.

[janitor]

In reply to your sarcastic post .I agreed that Carneras wins over those you mentioned were legit,but added that Carnera had an 84lb weight advantage over Loughran,

The point should be made that Loughran was the No1 or No2 contender at the time and was being heavily touted as the guy who would sort out the mess of the heavyweight division.

A lot of Carneras critics went away with their tails between their legs that night.

[mcvey]

The point should be made that Loughran was the No1 or No2 contender at the time and was being heavily touted as the guy who would sort out the mess of the heavyweight division.

A lot of Carneras critics went away with their tails between their legs that night.
You and I had a lengthy "duelling banjos"debate on this before Janitor,Im content to let the "Ambling Alp" rest in peace,he seems to have been a nice man with some talent and a heart to match his size.So Im going to let this one slide.

[janitor]

also check out Uzcuduns weight against Primo,229 1/4 was much too heavy for him ,

And we damn him for it.

Carnera gave him a shot at the lineal heavyweight title under the most favourable circumstances possible.

It wasnt Carneras job to march him to the gym and make him train.

[janitor]

You and I had a lengthy "duelling banjos"debate on this before Janitor,Im content to let the "Ambling Alp" rest in peace,he seems to have been a nice man with some talent and a heart to match his size.So Im going to let this one slide.

I can respect your position.

[Duodenum]

In reply to your sarcastic post .I agreed that Carnera's wins over those you mentioned were legit, but added that Carnera had an 84lb weight advantage over Loughran,and that Uzcudun was over weight for his title shot,is there any part of that statement that is inaccurate?
The Sharkey return match with Loughran was Sharkey's last fight before retiring.[he subsequently came back].Sharkey was coming off a losing streak having been stopped by Carnera and decisioned by King Levinsky,he had lost motivation ,and desire when he fought Loughran the second time.You talk about the biggest ko of Sharkeys career,that wouldnt take too long to find would it? he only had 13 in 53 fights.To finish you can defend Carnera as you wish ,I wasnt trying to tear him down ,just being cautious about the revisionism ,that seems to be surrounding his career at present.You say loughran was on queer street during the fight with Carnera .Loughran actually wobble Carnera twice during the fight,in the 4th and10 th rounds ,and Loughran had no power to speak of due to bad hands.Carnera must be given credit for his wins over,Levinsky,Campolo,Impellietirre,Neusal,etc.but I dont think he can go down as one of the better Champs,though at the rate he is going I can see him vying with Ali for top spot in a year or so!Carnera ,for me was not that great,a mechanical boxer ,who didnt really punch his weight ,but who had respectable speed for his size,and a ton of heart.No sarcasm intended, and my apologies if my post came across that way. The facts of his title fights are self-evident.

Going into their bout, the tremendous size difference between the two of them could have been reasonably predicted to work in Tommy's favor, rather than Primo's. (Of course the previous size differential record was Dempsey/Willard, and Loughran had certainly handled Uzcudun, Campolo, Impelletiere and Schaaf. It wasn't absurd to think he might outbox Carnera as Larry Gains did.)

Sharkey actually had respectable power for somebody with so few stoppage wins. I have the clip of his final match with Jimmy Maloney (which is probably on youtube), and many of us have seen the bomb he flattened Carnera with in their first bout. (Not to mention Sharkey incapacitating Schmeling in their first meeting!)

Yes, Loughran certainly did rock Primo in Miami, and it's an often overlooked fact about his brittle hands that they could stand up to Tommy loading up on a big shot once or twice over the course of a match. Boxing for the title, he certainly would have been more inclined to take this risk than for a regular bout.

Primo was certainly not one of the better boxers to hold the heavyweight title, but yes, I do in fact believe that he was one of the better heavyweight champs, for the brief time he held the title. He brought the biggest prize in sports out of the attic mothballs it had remained largely hidden in between 1911 and 1938, and brought it overseas for the only time between 1914 (Johnson/Moran in Paris) and 1966 (Ali/Cooper II in London) when he put it up against Paulino in Roma. In five consecutive bouts, he faced four HOFers, defeating the first two in championship competition. He put the title up against three long overdue and worthy challengers.

In another year's time, his reputation may well be vying with Ali's the way things are going, but once matters equalize, his reputation won't ultimately suffer from the bum rap unjustly laid upon him the last several decades (perpetuated by the likes of Bert Sugar), and he might finally take his appropriate place among the likes of Weaver, Burns and Patterson as a decent, rather than top or bottom of the barrel champion.

[mcvey]

No sarcasm intended, and my apologies if my post came across that way. The facts of his title fights are self-evident.

Going into their bout, the tremendous size difference between the two of them could have been reasonably predicted to work in Tommy's favor, rather than Primo's. (Of course the previous size differential record was Dempsey/Willard, and Loughran had certainly handled Uzcudun, Campolo, Impelletiere and Schaaf. It wasn't absurd to think he might outbox Carnera as Larry Gains did.)

Sharkey actually had respectable power for somebody with so few stoppage wins. I have the clip of his final match with Jimmy Maloney (which is probably on youtube), and many of us have seen the bomb he flattened Carnera with in their first bout. (Not to mention Sharkey incapacitating Schmeling in their first meeting!)

Yes, Loughran certainly did rock Primo in Miami, and it's an often overlooked fact about his brittle hands that they could stand up to Tommy loading up on a big shot once or twice over the course of a match. Boxing for the title, he certainly would have been more inclined to take this risk than for a regular bout.

Primo was certainly not one of the better boxers to hold the heavyweight title, but yes, I do in fact believe that he was one of the better heavyweight champs, for the brief time he held the title. He brought the biggest prize in sports out of the attic mothballs it had remained largely hidden in between 1911 and 1938, and brought it overseas for the only time between 1914 (Johnson/Moran in Paris) and 1966 (Ali/Cooper II in London) when he put it up against Paulino in Roma. In five consecutive bouts, he faced four HOFers, defeating the first two in championship competition. He put the title up against three long overdue and worthy challengers.

In another year's time, his reputation may well be vying with Ali's the way things are going, but once matters equalize, his reputation won't ultimately suffer from the bum rap unjustly laid upon him the last several decades (perpetuated by the likes of Bert Sugar), and he might finally take his appropriate place among the likes of Weaver, Burns and Patterson as a decent, rather than top or bottom of the barrel champion.
Just a quick reply D,Loughran himself said he couldnt take a chance on his hands going so he relied on his jab,as you say he may well have thought ,"this is for the title ,let it all go". I agree Sharkey could hit Dempsey thought he was going to be kod in their fight,Sharkey is a bit like the little girl when he was good he was very good and ,when he was bad he was horrid,Ruhlin was said to be the same.Maloney was a dangerous fighter witha good punch ,but supposedly a dodgy chin.No apologies from you are needed ,just a little surprised at your post ,you obviously fell that Primo gets as raw a deal now as he did from his managers.

[Duodenum]

Just a quick reply D,Loughran himself said he couldnt take a chance on his hands going so he relied on his jab,as you say he may well have thought ,"this is for the title ,let it all go". I agree Sharkey could hit Dempsey thought he was going to be kod in their fight,Sharkey is a bit like the little girl when he was good he was very good and ,when he was bad he was horrid,Ruhlin was said to be the same.Maloney was a dangerous fighter witha good punch ,but supposedly a dodgy chin.No apologies from you are needed ,just a little surprised at your post ,you obviously fell that Primo gets as raw a deal now as he did from his managers.Everything's cool.

As I indicated in earlier posts, viewing Bert Sugar badmothing Primo with second hand information, reading Gallico's, "Pity the Poor Giant" before the computer screen, then contrasting that with Carnera's footage and record does obviously set me off a bit. However, I'm also confident that individual boxing fans are finally gaining the ready access to information necessary to finally form their own conclusions.

Like Sharkey, Norton could be another classic head case. These were lousy performers to place money on. (In striking contrast, many who were close to Marciano allegedly placed all they had on him to win, and mindful of how much they were depending on him, Rocky always delivered. Bless his heart and soul!)

[janitor]

Like Sharkey, Norton could be another classic head case. These were lousy performers to place money on. (In striking contrast, many who were close to Marciano allegedly placed all they had on him to win, and mindful of how much they were depending on him, Rocky always delivered. Bless his heart and soul!)

Carnera might not to be a bad guy to bet on actualy.

He was verry consistent up to a certain level.