Harry Greb top 40 Middleweight?

[True Writer]

Boxing like many other sports often looks back to a golden age when men where men, tough men. Some how it implies that over the last 50-100 years humans have become soft, this retoric is maintained by every generation to the next, when we are in our 60's we will no doubt be the same. However in the cold light of day if you actually look at a lot of old fighters they where crap, fighting often clueless opponents. Also it has to be pointed out that black fighters where not allowed to fight them. However the fighters where game - but that does not make them any good.

One man that is certain to get a top 3 mention on this site at middle weight is Harry Greb. But take a look at the links below then ask yourself - how would this guy do against the likes of Hagler, Hearns, Monzon, Hopkins or even Benn, Eubank. The guy would be destroyed. I know people will say oh but he had 260 fights etc but his opponents where clueless by today's standards. Look at him then take a look at Roy Jones, there is no comparison.

Have a look at the links with an open mind - can you imagine him lasting 1 round with Hearns or how would he have managed against Mike McCallum? Only respond when you have seen the footage.


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[Maxmomer]

You can't accuratly judge a fighter based on training videos. All you have to do is look at his record and read what people who actually saw him fight had to say to know how great he was.

[McGrain]

Boxing like many other sports often looks back to a golden age when men where men, tough men.

It springs from a factual well though, guys fighting 40 rounds, guys fighting three top opponents in a month (compare that to now where some "champions" won't do that in a life time!) Of course, no-one is convincing me that Greb was "tougher" than Hopkins, that's BS, BUT old school boxing rewarded tougher fighters. If you had really bad hands, for example, it would be around 100 times harder to carve out a successful career because of fight schedules and less readily available medical care. You had to be tougher then than a similair fighter would now.

I wonder how many world class talents were lost because guys just didn't have the toughness to carry on?


Some how it implies that over the last 50-100 years humans have become soft, this retoric is maintained by every generation to the next, when we are in our 60's we will no doubt be the same.

Western capatalists societys tend to become more affluent, not less. It is an absolute fact that each generations will enjoy more luxuries than the last, and that opulance tends to make people "softer". It's a generality and I agree for the most part that it has nothing at all to do with boxing.

However in the cold light of day if you actually look at a lot of old fighters they where crap, fighting often clueless opponents. Also it has to be pointed out that black fighters where not allowed to fight them. However the fighters where game - but that does not make them any good.

Why are the black fighers not included in "them"? You seem to be saying here that black fighters are less crap than white fighters when discussing a bygone era which is nonsensical.

One man that is certain to get a top 3 mention on this site at middle weight is Harry Greb. But take a look at the links below then ask yourself - how would this guy do against the likes of Hagler, Hearns, Monzon, Hopkins or even Benn, Eubank. The guy would be destroyed. I know people will say oh but he had 260 fights etc but his opponents where clueless by today's standards. Look at him then take a look at Roy Jones, there is no comparison.

You have posted footage of Harry Greb goofing of for the camera. I have footage of Ali sparring a giant stuffed gorilla. Shall we judge Ali based upon that?

Do you think this is how Greb really fought? Really?

Why don't you post some footage of Tunney, a master-boxer by absolutley any sensible standard. A bigger man, Greb found a way to beat him despite his wonderful skills.

Have a look at the links with an open mind - can you imagine him lasting 1 round with Hearns or how would he have managed against Mike McCallum? Only respond when you have seen the footage.

He looks silly.

I can't imagine him lasting a round with Tunney or Lougran either.

You can judge the greatest resme in the history of boxing based on goofy sparring footage, or the resume plus the film we have of the men he beat.

[True Writer]

I raised the point about these guys not fighting black fighters for a number of reasons. Firstly it shows in my opinion how disorganised boxing was, as was true of all sports, but by being so there was no where near the amount of quality matches set up. But lets be honest the few black fighters able to compete back then wiped the floor with their opponents 99 times out of a hundred. Boxing was not allowed to continue like this imagine if throughout history only a handful of black fighters could have competed. Boxing would still have had its greats but in reality they would have been pretenders.

People go on about his resume but it is worthless if he is fighting bums - which he was.

You can not compare Ali and Greb, I am no Ali fan but when he fought their where no barriers and the sport was organised Ali would probably not have been allowed to fight in the 20's or moreover if he had the top white fighters would have avoided him. Yet those fighters would have been considered great and Ali would have been a what if fighter.

[McGrain]

People go on about his resume but it is worthless if he is fighting bums - which he was.

Off the top of my head -

Maxie Rosenbloom - ATG LHW, pure boxings master.
Mickey Walker - ATG WW, MW
Gene Tunney - ATG LHW (#1 candidate), appears on some ATG HW lists
Tiger Flowers - ATG MW
Tommy Gibbons - ATG LHW
Tommy Loughran - ATG LHW
Kid Norfolk - ATG LHW

These are just the ones I can think of, becaus i'm not going to do what you clearly can't be bothered to do, log on to boxrec and check out his wins. And if you don't recognise those names that isn't my fault - take my word for it maybe. Greb arguably has more greats on his win resume than anyone else who ever fough. Top 40 Middleweight?

Top 4 all time p4p is a better question.



You can not compare Ali and Greb, I am no Ali fan but when he fought their where no barriers and the sport was organised Ali would probably not have been allowed to fight in the 20's or moreover if he had the top white fighters would have avoided him. Yet those fighters would have been considered great and Ali would have been a what if fighter.

Black fighters were indeed treated like shit, as late as the 40's, possibly beyond. If Ali had fought in the 20's he would be regarded as one of the best of all time, just as he is now, just as Wills is now, just as Langford is now, just as Kid Norfolk is now, just as...i think you're getting the point.

Greb fought mostly white fighters, same as most white fighters of his era. He also fought ATG black fighters.

[janitor]

Boxing like many other sports often looks back to a golden age when men where men, tough men. Some how it implies that over the last 50-100 years humans have become soft, this retoric is maintained by every generation to the next, when we are in our 60's we will no doubt be the same. However in the cold light of day if you actually look at a lot of old fighters they where crap, fighting often clueless opponents. Also it has to be pointed out that black fighters where not allowed to fight them. However the fighters where game - but that does not make them any good.

One man that is certain to get a top 3 mention on this site at middle weight is Harry Greb. But take a look at the links below then ask yourself - how would this guy do against the likes of Hagler, Hearns, Monzon, Hopkins or even Benn, Eubank. The guy would be destroyed. I know people will say oh but he had 260 fights etc but his opponents where clueless by today's standards. Look at him then take a look at Roy Jones, there is no comparison.

Have a look at the links with an open mind - can you imagine him lasting 1 round with Hearns or how would he have managed against Mike McCallum? Only respond when you have seen the footage.


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Harry Greb is not a top 40 middleweight he is a top 1 middleweight.

No other middleweight in history can match his resume or even aproach it. These are the facts of the matter.

In fact you would be hard put to find two middleweights whose combined resume matches up to his. It is just about possible if one of them is Mickey Walker who Greb beat incidentaly.

[True Writer]

You are missing the point there where very few black fighters, most of them are now considered all time greats - what does that tell you?

You can't see many of his or his contemporary's so how can you judge him or them?

Are you telling me that Greb could have stood a chance against Hagler, Hearns or Roy Jones etc. Wake up man!

[janitor]

But take a look at the links below then ask yourself - how would this guy do against the likes of Hagler, Hearns, Monzon, Hopkins or even Benn, Eubank.

Take a look at some footage of Gene Tunney and ask yourself whether any of the fighters you just listed would have a chance against him.

The obvious colclusion is that they wouldnt.

[McGrain]

You are missing the point there where very few black fighters, most of them are now considered all time greats - what does that tell you?

There were hundreds of black fighters. Greb fought many of the best of them. Where are you going with this?

You can't see many of his or his contemporary's so how can you judge him or them?

But you can see some of them. Is it ok if I judge them?

Are you telling me that Greb could have stood a chance against Hagler, Hearns or Roy Jones etc. Wake up man!

He is even money at worst against these guys, and I would certainly pick him to beat Hagler and Jones. Hearns is interesting, I pick Greb.

Tiger would beat Greb IMO, Hopkins would have a shot.

I make these picks based on what I do know, which as you've pointed out, isn't much. But it seems to be more than you.

Greb beat more ATG fighters than all the guys you list combined.

[janitor]

You can't see many of his or his contemporary's so how can you judge him or them?


There is footage of Gene Tunney, Tommy Loughran, Tommy Gibbons, Mike Gibbons, Jimmy Slaterey, Mickey Walker.

These guys are as good as anybody their weight today or better.

[redrooster]

I don't see him beating Hagler or Jones.

[Jbuz]

Now, I'm all for ranking Greb very high.... But this video had me in absolute tears.

0xm8Y-pWzIg

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[janitor]

I don't see him beating Hagler or Jones.

Neither do I.

I see him destroying them.

[McGrain]

I don't see him beating Hagler or Jones.


Fair enough gov. Those are two great fighters.

But Greb is the ultimat pressure fighter and Jones has looked a litte susceptable. Of course, Greb might not have the pure power needed to keep Jones honest.

You pick Hagler to just out-box Greb, what?

[McGrain]

Now, I'm all for ranking Greb very high.... But this video had me in absolute tears.:rofl


Some very nice footage apart from anything else.

[Jbuz]

Some very nice footage apart from anything else.

Cmon don't tell me that didn't make you laugh. You go from this KO machine, landing precise right hands to KO some great fighters, to this skinny guy prancing around like a fairy on ecstacy.... with Eye of the Tiger playing. :rofl

[True Writer]

McGrain - Greb beat more ATG than my list combined - that is nonsense.

Do you know how many black fighters Greb faced in 300ish fights? Not many, but Tiger Flowers was one and Flowers beat him twice (but probably 3 times reading between the lines). In those days white fighters did not fight black fighters for many reasons including race riots when they lost. The truth is that the best white fighters where kept away from black.

[McGrain]

Seen it before, cracked smile right enough.

[True Writer]

It is one of the funniest things I have ever seen! Anyone would think it was a joke! Hearns would destroy Greb .

[McGrain]

McGrain - Greb beat more ATG than my list combined - that is nonsense.

Don't really know what to say to you buddy, apart from "no it isn't".


Do you know how many black fighters Greb faced in 300ish fights? Not many, but Tiger Flowers was one and Flowers beat him twice (but probably 3 times reading between the lines). In those days white fighters did not fight black fighters for many reasons including race riots when they lost. The truth is that the best white fighters where kept away from black.

He didn't fight many. What? He fought Flowers who had his number and beat him at the end (and might have been a good pick peak for peak) and he fought and beat ATG Kid Norfolk too. Which great black fighters should Greb have entertained? Siki? It pretty obvious to anyone who does some digging who's fault it was that fight never happened.

He fought and beat some of the best.

But I don't think I like where this conversation is going. I'm certainly not going to pick every black fighter since to beat Greb because racism was rife at the time.

If that's what you argument is boiling down to, shame.

[McGrain]

It is one of the funniest things I have ever seen! Anyone would think it was a joke! Hearns would destroy Greb .


What a great job you're doing of proving it.

[janitor]

McGrain - Greb beat more ATG than my list combined - that is nonsense.

Do you know how many black fighters Greb faced in 300ish fights? Not many, but Tiger Flowers was one and Flowers beat him twice (but probably 3 times reading between the lines). In those days white fighters did not fight black fighters for many reasons including race riots when they lost. The truth is that the best white fighters where kept away from black.

Kid Norfolk was easily the best black fighter at light heavyweight when Greb beat him. I could also find some reports that suggest that he won all three fights against Flowers.

At the end of the day though there was no black fighter who could hold a candle to Gene Tunney at his weight or Mickey Walker for that matter.

[janitor]

It is one of the funniest things I have ever seen! Anyone would think it was a joke! Hearns would destroy Greb .

Then why didnt Gene Tunney destroy him?

Would you even give Hearns a chance against Gene Tunney?

[True Writer]

I am just pointing out the obvious and I agree it is an unpleasent conversation but thats life. I am not saying every black fighter would beat him - not at all. But when you don't fight any black fighters then surely it is only right to ask the question. Someone like Cooney would have been a great HW had black fighters not been able to fight him. At the end of the day most people would admit that at the higher weights black fighters have been dominant - that is a fact.

When you boil it down; you can't watch any of his fights, he fought very few black fighters - how can you rate him as the greatest middle weight?

[McGrain]

I am just pointing out the obvious and I agree it is an unpleasent conversation but thats life. I am not saying every black fighter would beat him - not at all. But when you don't fight any black fighters then surely it is only right to ask the question.

OK, that's fair enough. Sorry if I was a bit short, but every now and again you get a guy on here who's just all about race and it's unpleasant to say the least.

But as has been pointed out to you Greb DID fight great black fighters, two of the greatest ever at and around the weight (I consider both top 20 fighters for their respective weight divisions). I'll ask you again - which black fighters should Greb have entertained? How does the fact that he didn't fight them impact his legacy.

When you boil it down; you can't watch any of his fights, he fought very few black fighters - how can you rate him as the greatest middle weight?

I actually do not have him at #1 for this weight. I agree that not being able to see him fight is problematic - a challenge.

But I am not prepared to throw out the greatest resume in boxing history on these grounds.

[janitor]

[quote=True Writer]I am just pointing out the obvious and I agree it is an unpleasent conversation but thats life. I am not saying every black fighter would beat him - not at all. But when you don't fight any black fighters then surely it is only right to ask the question. Someone like Cooney would have been a great HW had black fighters not been able to fight him. At the end of the day most people would admit that at the higher weights black fighters have been dominant - that is a fact.


There were a lot more good white fighters in Grebs day. You had Irish, Jewish and Italian imigrant populations in the ghetos and it was from this group that most top fighters were drawn.

There have always been a lot of good black fighters but they were not as dominant in the pre war period. Guys like Jack Dempsey and Harry Greb would always have been the dominant force in their eras.


When you boil it down; you can't watch any of his fights, he fought very few black fighters - how can you rate him as the greatest middle weight?


Simple.

There is nobody with a better resume to rank above him. He beat 12 lineal champions from welterweight to heavyweight. Nobody else can touch that.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Kid Norfolk was easily the best black fighter at light heavyweight when Greb beat him. I could also find some reports that suggest that he won all three fights against Flowers.



Geniune question: who thought Greb won their first fight in 1926? I've always read that the vast majority thought Flowers won. The return later in the year was the big controversy.


ps. The writer from Harry's local paper or a Greb biographer doesn't count. :good

[True Writer]

OK, that's fair enough. Sorry if I was a bit short, but every now and again you get a guy on here who's just all about race and it's unpleasant to say the least.

But as has been pointed out to you Greb DID fight great black fighters, two of the greatest ever at and around the weight (I consider both top 20 fighters for their respective weight divisions). I'll ask you again - which black fighters should Greb have entertained? How does the fact that he didn't fight them impact his legacy.



I actually do not have him at #1 for this weight. I agree that not being able to see him fight is problematic - a challenge.

But I am not prepared to throw out the greatest resume in boxing history on these grounds.

He does have a great resume and no one can take that from him. But when that resume is so old and, due to its time racist, then I do not believe you can rank him so highly. For example his fights with Flowers seemed close but was due to the fact that it was the 20's? Also should he/could he have fought more black fighters probably yes, but this was not his fault it was the age he fought in (Jack Dempsey too).

I was interested in Greb because he is always in th top 5 middles but next to no footage can be found. I simply can't believe that he could have mixed it with the likes of Hearns, if you compare them physically its almost funny.

[redrooster]

The disadvantage Greb has is that like Tony Ayala, there is very little footage of him except for sparring but unlike Ayala, had a full career to his credit with legendary achievements and nearly 300 fights.

I really wasn't impressed with the footage of Greb's muscles-Tommy's muscles stood out more once he put on some weight. Hagler also looked unimpressive in sparring even in his prime.

I really can't tell much from the sparring so all I can say is he looked crude- like Mustafa Hamsho but harder to hit, telegraphs his right hand, not much of a jab while Hagler possessed a hard accurate jab, probably had the better tools and much better technical fighter in every way--and with no shortage of stamina. Only Hagler or Jones or Robinson could keep up the pace with Greb.

My question is how effective would Greb be without the use of illegal tactics? Would he find himself disqualified?

[My dinner with Conteh]

I've just had a peak at Boxrec. Funny how they quote the New York Times more than any other paper in many (probably 'most') cases, yet fail to do so concerning the Greb-Flowers fight. Probably because the NYT had Flowers winning handily. :huh

[McGrain]

My question is how effective would Greb be without the use of illegal tactics? Would he find himself disqualified?

Good and fair question. I often ask myself the same thing about Zivic. But I guess the reverse is also true. How would Calzaghe do with smaller gloves fighting a man who laces him in the eyes twice in round one?

[janitor]

Geniune question: who thought Greb won their first fight in 1926? I've always read that the vast majority thought Flowers won. The return later in the year was the big controversy.


ps. The writer from Harry's local paper or a Greb biographer doesn't count. :good

They fought three times in total.

In the first encounter some partisan papers had Greb wining but the majority favoured Flowers. Greb himself also said that Flowers won. Despite this boxrec and other sources list it as a win for Greb. No title was on the line.

In the second fight where the title pased to Flowers most observers seemed to think that Greb deserved thhe nod.

In the third encounter the papers seem to be split and you get the idea that it was too close to call.

So my take is that Flowers won the first, Greb won the second and the third was a Hopkins Taylor type afair with Flowers perhaps edging it.

[My dinner with Conteh]

They fought three times in total.

In the first encounter some partisan papers had Greb wining but the majority favoured Flowers. Greb himself also said that Flowers won. No title was on the line.

In the second fight where the title pased to Flowers most observers seemed to think that Greb deserved thhe nod.

In the third encounter the papers seem to be split and you get the idea that it was too close to call.



Fair enough. But he'd definitely met his match (at that point in his career anyway). The New York Times wrote that most in attendance for the first world title fight had Flowers winning clearly- so someone's telling fibs.

[True Writer]

I think in those days if a black fighter got the nod then he must have clearly won the fight, otherwise there would have been riots.

[janitor]

I think in those days if a black fighter got the nod then he must have clearly won the fight, otherwise there would have been riots.

Not necisarily. If the black fighter had the right conections the system could work for him.

When Joe Humphreys announced Flowers as the winner by split decision with the judges, but not the referee, voting for him, the fans stormed the ring, littering it with bottles, hats, paper and everything they could find to throw in protest.

Jim Crowley, the referee, walked over to Greb saying “Tough, Harry, a tough one to lose. It was your fight.” Gene Tunney who watched the affair said, “Harry won by a substantial margin. It was an unjust decision.” William Muldoon also said Greb had won, adding, “but the decision will stand. If we (The New York Athletic Commission) reversed it, the Negro people might think they were being discriminated against.”

[McGrain]

I think in those days if a black fighter got the nod then he must have clearly won the fight, otherwise there would have been riots.


There must have been a race issue, as you say. However, never forget that boxing has always been organised by boxing men, first and foremost.

Secondly, Flowers was more appealing to the "hollier than thou" element than Greb could ever be, regardless of creed or colour :lol:

Givn the choice, even hard bitten klan men would be hard put to hang the Deacon rather than Greb.

Louis gets a shit-load of credit for re-shaping racial stereotyping in the fight game, but surely Flowers deserves some of the credit for bridging the massive gap between Johnson and Louis.

[McGrain]

Fair enough. But he'd definitely met his match (at that point in his career anyway).

I think Flowers was the Kryptonite.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Jim Crowley, the referee, walked over to Greb saying “Tough, Harry, a tough one to lose. It was your fight.” Gene Tunney who watched the affair said, “Harry won by a substantial margin. It was an unjust decision.” William Muldoon also said Greb had won, adding, “but the decision will stand. If we (The New York Athletic Commission) reversed it, the Negro people might think they were being discriminated against.”



That was the final meeting though wasn't it?

[janitor]

That was the final meeting though wasn't it?

Yes

[Dempsey1238]

I dont know why you guys are digging on the training footage, the training footage was NO differnt than any other training footage of THAT era. You guys should relly see George Carp or Jack Dempsey shadow box, they look goofy going in circles like that, Carp is even MORE off balace than Greb in his training scene section in the Dempsey fight.

As for the sparing with O Brain, he was a retire boxer(He era was the 1900's for criss stakes) and they were doing a little FREIDLY sparing. Greb did not want to hurt the old man. That would be like today, say Taylor or even VK going a FEW freindly sparing rounds with Hagler or Fraizer. Jack was reaching his 50's at the time.

Speaking of which I do have the footage of Dempsey sparing with Jack McAuliffe, and Dempsey look FAR from the killer of the Willard and Firpo fights. Hell McAuliffe and Dempsey were more SLAPPING than anything. Yet we hardly judge Dempsey on his freindly sparing with McAuliffe do we?? They were playing around.

[mightyd40]

Neither do I.

I see him destroying them.
beating maybe.....but destroying?? i think u may be going a bit overboard here

[McGrain]

beating maybe.....but destroying?? i think u may be going a bit overboard here

Yeah, you're looking at least two divisions north before you find the man to destroy Hagler. As for Jones, I think Greb might be the only guy who would hav Jones wishing he'd stayed home at the end of nine or ten. I'd bet on him looking beat up after 12/15.

[China_hand_Joe]

How would Calzaghe do with smaller gloves

He'd KO just about everyone with those hooks.

[Thread Stealer]

I don't know about top 40 head-to-head since the footage is so minimal, but going by resume and achievements (far more important in assessing a fighter's all-time standing), he's more like a top 1 MW.

[janitor]

beating maybe.....but destroying?? i think u may be going a bit overboard here

Put it this way.

Whether he won or lost he would not look prety at the end of it.

[klompton]

What is the big hang up with black fighters True Writer? You think white fighters couldnt fight? At that time there were more quality white fighters than black fighters for the simple fact that black fighters made less, had a harder time getting fights, and couldnt go as far. Thus fewer of them entered the game, there were fewer blacks than whites to begin with (thats why they were a minority) and therefore fewer top flight black fighters. You can count the # of top blacks that Greb COULD have fought on one hand and of those he fought as many as anyone else when he didnt have to at all. He could have easily drawn the color line and NEVER faced flowers. Period. As for his resume it stands and the fact that you cant recognize that shows you are either ignorant of those times and the men Greb faced or have an agenda. Im guessing its more than a little of both.

[mcvey]

Off the top of my head -

Maxie Rosenbloom - ATG LHW, pure boxings master.
Mickey Walker - ATG WW, MW
Gene Tunney - ATG LHW (#1 candidate), appears on some ATG HW lists
Tiger Flowers - ATG MW
Tommy Gibbons - ATG LHW
Tommy Loughran - ATG LHW
Kid Norfolk - ATG LHW

These are just the ones I can think of, becaus i'm not going to do what you clearly can't be bothered to do, log on to boxrec and check out his wins. And if you don't recognise those names that isn't my fault - take my word for it maybe. Greb arguably has more greats on his win resume than anyone else who ever fough. Top 40 Middleweight?

Top 4 all time p4p is a better question.




Black fighters were indeed treated like shit, as late as the 40's, possibly beyond. If Ali had fought in the 20's he would be regarded as one of the best of all time, just as he is now, just as Wills is now, just as Langford is now, just as Kid Norfolk is now, just as...i think you're getting the point.

Greb fought mostly white fighters, same as most white fighters of his era. He also fought ATG black fighters.
Very accurate rebuttal,I couldnt be arsed to respond to this,he clearly picks his info out of the air ,good job!

[redrooster]

I think some here may be underrating Greb who beat Tunny and Loughran who are in my top 15 p4p and Walker who is top 20.

Still, without dirty tactics, how good was he?

[Drew101]

I think some here may be underrating Greb who beat Tunny and Loughran who are in my top 15 p4p and Walker who is top 20.

Still, without dirty tactics, how good was he?

Probably pretty good. No one likes to face strong, mauling fighters who are tough to hit...especially those fighters who tend to throw a high volume of punches throughout the fights.

[Marciano Frazier]

So you actually think you can tell from 29 seconds of him throwing fake slow-motion punches to show off his muscles for a camera, 43 seconds of him casually play-sparring, and 23 seconds of him flexing his mucles how he would do in an actual professional fight?

[JohnThomas1]

Neither do I.

I see him destroying them.

Beating them can be debated, but destroying them is just shyte.

[True Writer]

What is the big hang up with black fighters True Writer? You think white fighters couldnt fight? At that time there were more quality white fighters than black fighters for the simple fact that black fighters made less, had a harder time getting fights, and couldnt go as far. Thus fewer of them entered the game, there were fewer blacks than whites to begin with (thats why they were a minority) and therefore fewer top flight black fighters. You can count the # of top blacks that Greb COULD have fought on one hand and of those he fought as many as anyone else when he didnt have to at all. He could have easily drawn the color line and NEVER faced flowers. Period. As for his resume it stands and the fact that you cant recognize that shows you are either ignorant of those times and the men Greb faced or have an agenda. Im guessing its more than a little of both.

I am not saying white fighters can't fight, not at all. I am merely pointing out that boxing in those days was not really professional as we know it now and black fighters where few and far between. You could argue that only the best black fighters made it but I think the pool to pick form was far far smaller and the better black fighters where forced to fight above their natural weights and often in shoter 10 round fights, for fear of them winning (enabling judges to decide the out come more often). This was the 1900's -1940's.

I also think you can not judge a fighter as being the greatest middle weight when their is no fight footage. For all we know he might have beaten bums and drunks his whole career. What we can see from the footage is that next to the like of Hagler, Jones & Hearns the man looked weak!

[janitor]

I also think you can not judge a fighter as being the greatest middle weight when their is no fight footage. For all we know he might have beaten bums and drunks his whole career. What we can see from the footage is that next to the like of Hagler, Jones & Hearns the man looked weak!

But we do have footage of many of his key oponents and they clearly are good.

So what if he dosnt look good shadow boxing?

We can watch fighters he beat and see exactly how good they were.

[True Writer]

Very accurate rebuttal,I couldnt be arsed to respond to this,he clearly picks his info out of the air ,good job!

So you agree that Grebs fought better fighters than in the records of Hagler, Hearns & RJJ - have you got a screw loose? Let me list a few for you - oh and you can actually watch these fights unlike Grebs!

Pipino Cuevas
Sugar Ray Leonard - top 5 all time Welter
Wilfred Benitez
Roberto Duran - Greatest ever lightweight p4p top 3
Marvin Hagler - top 3 Middleweight
Iran Barkley
Virgil Hill
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins - top 5 middle weight
Mike McCallum - greatest light middle ever?
Antonio Tarver
John Ruiz - Ok thats a joke, but he beat a heavyweight champion.

I won't/don't need to name Hagler opponents as I think this already wins the argument.

[dmt]

So you agree that Grebs fought better fighters than in the records of Hagler, Hearns & RJJ - have you got a screw loose? Let me list a few for you - oh and you can actually watch these fights unlike Grebs!

Pipino Cuevas
Sugar Ray Leonard - top 5 all time Welter
Wilfred Benitez
Roberto Duran - Greatest ever lightweight p4p top 3
Marvin Hagler - top 3 Middleweight
Iran Barkley
Virgil Hill
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins - top 5 middle weight
Mike McCallum - greatest light middle ever?
Antonio Tarver
John Ruiz - Ok thats a joke, but he beat a heavyweight champion.

I won't/don't need to name Hagler opponents as I think this already wins the argument.Gene Tunney would have beaten all of these fighters you mentioned :good

[janitor]

So you agree that Grebs fought better fighters than in the records of Hagler, Hearns & RJJ - have you got a screw loose? Let me list a few for you - oh and you can actually watch these fights unlike Grebs!

Pipino Cuevas
Sugar Ray Leonard - top 5 all time Welter
Wilfred Benitez
Roberto Duran - Greatest ever lightweight p4p top 3
Marvin Hagler - top 3 Middleweight
Iran Barkley
Virgil Hill
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins - top 5 middle weight
Mike McCallum - greatest light middle ever?
Antonio Tarver
John Ruiz - Ok thats a joke, but he beat a heavyweight champion.

I won't/don't need to name Hagler opponents as I think this already wins the argument.

Gene Tunney-better than any of them

Tommy Loughran-better than any of them

Mickey Walker-better than any of them

Tommy Gibbons-better than any of them

And yes all these guys were filmed.

Billy Miske-better than any of them

Kid Norfolk-better than any of them

[True Writer]

But we do have footage of many of his key oponents and they clearly are good.

So what if he dosnt look good shadow boxing?

We can watch fighters he beat and see exactly how good they were.

I think they looked crude at best. What I am saying is that if you take out one pool of fighters i.e. black fighters then you are left with fewer quality opponents. As I said Cooney would have been one of the greatest ever heavyweights had their been no black fighters around, same with Tommy Morrison.

[True Writer]

Gene Tunney-better than any of them

Tommy Loughran-better than any of them

Mickey Walker-better than any of them

Tommy Gibbons-better than any of them

And yes all these guys were filmed.

Billy Miske-better than any of them

Kid Norfolk-better than any of them

Tell me you are joking!!! Please.

[doublesuited]

The only thing missing from the Harry Greb/Thomas Hearns youtube video is Benny Hill music whenever the clips of Greb appear.

[True Writer]

For those that have not seen it check out the link.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Get real Hearns would kill Greb!!

[dmt]

so white fighter are not good :roll: Greb was one of high quality qhite fighters that showed they could compete against black fighters. And let' s not argue that black fighters did not draw the colout line because they did do it at times and that rarely gets mentioned

[janitor]

Tell me you are joking!!! Please.

I am not joking and I doubt that any serious historian would disagree with me. Look at the guys I listed. Look at their resumes and watch film of them.

[janitor]

The only thing missing from the Harry Greb/Thomas Hearns youtube video is Benny Hill music whenever the clips of Greb appear.

No we need Benny Hill music whenever you post.

[True Writer]

I don't disagree that some historians would agrre with you, it does not make them right. There is a massive gulf between modern fighters and guys like Greb if you take a step back you can see it. Grebs was one of the better fighters back then but to be honest he was not as good as Tiger Flowers and if he had fought Sam Langford be would have been smashed. For such a great fighter why did he never fight Langford?

[dmt]

because by the time Greb reached the top Langford was old and starting tio go blind, if Greb would have fought him everyone would have said "o look at Harry picking on old men"
/
/And YOU CAN'T FIGHT EVERYONE, gREB was better then flowers

[True Writer]

He could have fought Langford while Langford was in his 30's. Flowers handed Greb a beating 3 times that does not really make sense.

[janitor]

He could have fought Langford while Langford was in his 30's. Flowers handed Greb a beating 3 times that does not really make sense.

Mate Langford was a rocking chair relic by the time Greb was fighting at a world level. It is better for all concearned that such a mismatch did not take place.

It is highly debatable whether Flowers deserved the decision in his last two fights with Greb and even if he did Greb was in decline at this point.

[True Writer]

Flowers fought and lost to Langford in 1921-22 or so, he and Greb could have fought in 1920-22 no probs. So mate Langford was no relic by then. Flowers was the same age as Greb and had Grebs number it is a fair comparison for a what if Greb Vs Langford.

[dmt]

what evidence do you have that Greb ducked Langford Please tell us
/
/Langford started going blind in 1917 after losing to Fred Fulton

[Vockerman]

Get real Hearns would kill Greb!!


Hey - I think we are onto something here!

Let me see if I can find a fighter that looks as bad as Greb on a training tape - say like that goofy clip of Jack Johnson twirling his hands in circles...

And on the basis of that pick a modern, taller, hard hitting fighter like - Gerry Cooney - to Kill Him in one round!!

[Seamus]

Hey - I think we are onto something here!

Let me see if I can find a fighter that looks as bad as Greb on a training tape - say like that goofy clip of Jack Johnson twirling his hands in circles...

And on the basis of that pick a modern, taller, hard hitting fighter like - Gerry Cooney - to Kill Him in one round!!

hah! Or that Sullivan footage when he's old and derelict twirling his hands.

Does anyone care that Greb was also half blind when he fought Flowers?

But the writer is correct, of course, by making this into a race issue. White fighters could never hang with blacks or latinos. Just look at the champions 160 and above.

[True Writer]

what evidence do you have that Greb ducked Langford Please tell us
/
/Langford started going blind in 1917 after losing to Fred Fulton


The evidence I have is that they didn't fight each other. Langford fought everyone he could there is no way he ducked Greb, so Greb MUST have ducked him and I can't blame him he would have been mullered.

[janitor]

Flowers fought and lost to Langford in 1921-22 or so, he and Greb could have fought in 1920-22 no probs. So mate Langford was no relic by then. Flowers was the same age as Greb and had Grebs number it is a fair comparison for a what if Greb Vs Langford.

Langford was technicaly blind when he beat Flowers. He found Flowers suspect chin posibly by a fluke.

Would you honestly give Greb any credit for beating a blind fighter?

Perhaps you would let Langford have a white stick to make it more even?

[janitor]

The evidence I have is that they didn't fight each other. Langford fought everyone he could there is no way he ducked Greb, so Greb MUST have ducked him and I can't blame him he would have been mullered.

Langford was no longer fighting anybody at this point. He wanted no part of Jack Dillon who Greb had beaten for example.

Who can blame him he could hardly see his hand in front of his face.

Forgett Langford he is a red hering.

[Acorn]

For those that have not seen it check out the link.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Get real Hearns would kill Greb!!

Is this video some kind of joke? i nearly fell off my chair watching this video. the guy [greb] was dancing around like michael jackson. the person who made this video should be named and shamed....

[Arminius]

Harry Greb is an easy #2 ATG middleweight and maybe a #2 P4P all time great. He is the only one to beat heavyweight champion Gene Tunney and gave Tunney his toughest fights in the ones he lost. It was been reported that he rang rings around Jack Dempsey when acting as his sparring partner.

He fought while being blind in one eye.

Herb Goldman ranked Greb as the #1 All-Time Middleweight; Charley Rose ranked him as the #2 All-Time Middleweight; Nat Fleischer ranked him as the #3 All-Time Middleweight.

[Bummy Davis]

I got Greb at # 1 but you got to put him at top 3

[McGrain]

This thread makes me feel stressed.

I Am Legend should post that footage of Tyson KOing Holmes to lighten the mood.

[True Writer]

Langford was no longer fighting anybody at this point. He wanted no part of Jack Dillon who Greb had beaten for example.

Who can blame him he could hardly see his hand in front of his face.

Forgett Langford he is a red hering.

After beating Flowers Langford went 24 fights unbeaten - he was past his prime but even so 24 unbeaten streak is pretty damn good.

If like you say Flower had such a bad chin why did Greb (the man you say is the greatest middle ever) could not find it?

[dmt]

because Greb was not a puncher
/
/Look the decision in whuich Greb lost his title to Flowers was considered disgraceful, and anyway he had been going blind for years. Greb started going blind after 1921

[True Writer]

So did Langford they could have had a blind fight - could have been a classic! Langford Vs Greb in primes who do you think wins and how?

Oh an Flowers beat Greb their is not a chance he would have been given the nod otherwise.