Ali's power?

[Maxmomer]

I'm eager to hear people's opinions on the subject of Muhhamad Ali's punching power. I've heard some people claim he was a feather-fisted slapper while others claim that if he sat down on his punches he could produce considerable power. What are your thoughts? How hard could Ali hit when he really wanted to hit hard? How strong was he? How would you compare his power to that of other champions? Who had more, who had less?

[sjc]

7/10

[The Kurgan]

When he planted his feet, he had very respectable power. I'd put him on a level with Holyfield: not a big puncher, but powerful nonetheless. Of course, as with Holyfield, it was the combination of quantity of punches; the speed of the punches; and the accuracy of the punches that took his opponents out.

[JohnThomas1]

When he planted his feet, he had very respectable power. I'd put him on a level with Holyfield: not a big puncher, but powerful nonetheless. Of course, as with Holyfield, it was the combination of quantity of punches; the speed of the punches; and the accuracy of the punches that took his opponents out.

I'm as big an Ali fan as there is and i gotta say i can't believe Ali hits as hard as Holyfield, who i consider underrated power wise.

[AREA 53]

Ali is never easy to Peg because unlike most fighters, who will try to take out even weak opponents as quick as possible, Ali never really went "Hell for Leather" on many occassions, Give Tyson a Marvis Frazier and he will destroy him ASAP, Give Holmes Marvis or a Scot Frank and he will despatch ASAP, Give Foreman a King Roman and out he goes ASAP, Ali often seemed content, particularly after his comback, to use fights as paid Gym sharpners, Could Ali have stopped Ellis sooner ? undoubtedly, Mathis, Lubbers, Foster could have been stopped if Ali was determined to do it, and not simply put on a show and keep sharp, also it must be remembered that Ali in his second career did also suffer from painful birsitus (?) of the knuckles which probably inclined him to often flick his punches,

But there was nothing wrong with the Left Hook that Ended Bonavena,
nothing wrong with the Right hand that unhinged Lyle, the right hands that Floored blin and subsequently Blue Lewis,...

Frazier in fight 1 took some excellant shots, as did Foreman
that would probably of seriously inconvenianced a lot of heavies,

I think if Ali was right in attitude and hands, then he was not someone you could be careless with, he could probably punch harder then perhaps he showed many of his opponents

But Ali was not a One punch man in the upper classes, the punch he finised fighters with was usually the final cherry on a very big cake,

[The Kurgan]

Good points Area51, although I think the main reason Ali didn't get Ellis earlier was because Ellis bothered him with the jab and was well-prepared for anything Ali tried. It wasn't until the 12th that Ellis dropped the left, giving Ali an opportunity to explode with the right hand and stop him. Although I had Ali well ahead at the time of the stoppage, that's one of Ellis's best performances (although nowhere as impressive as the Bonavena bout).

[janitor]

In some ways it dosnt matter.

It is enough to say that he was an efective puncher whether that related to power or not.

[ChrisPontius]

Ali had average power in my opinion (compared to other champions), but he still managed to get quite some stoppages because of his above-average stamina, handspeed and ability to get punches in. Every heavyweight can punch a bit and if they hit you often enough, something's gonna give. But he didn't have the heavy type of punches that could stop a weaker chinned fighter like Norton, Shavers or Patterson from getting into the fight.

[Manassa]

5/10! And no more.

[groove]

Ali's best display of punching power was against Williams. He really looked good that nite. They were strong and very fast punches. Timing was spot on. I think he woulda knocked someone like Norton out if he was fighting him that nite.

[AREA 53]

KURGAN - I think the main reason Ali did not terminate Ellis sooner was because Ellis was an ex Sparmate, and lifelong Friend from Louisville, secondary reasons may be because he wanted to test his legs in a long fight, unpressured he danced most of the way, there was an intersting forth round as i recall, were Ali spent quite some time with his hands at his sides, when clearly in hitting range, making Ellis Miss all his Head Shots, And Jimmy was a fast sneaky puncher, Ellis knew Ali, but of course Ali knew Ellis...

[DaveTheWave]

Ali was a sharp puncher, not a heavy puncher. I consider him a doubles and sometimes triples hitter. He definitely had enough to get your attention and demand respect. I'd give him a 6.5-7/10

[Muchmoore]

Ali wasn't a power puncher or anything close to it. His power gets under rated a little bit but he had average power. Probably a 6-7 out of 10.

[janitor]

Ali's best display of punching power was against Williams. He really looked good that nite. They were strong and very fast punches. Timing was spot on. I think he woulda knocked someone like Norton out if he was fighting him that nite.

You would be hard put to find a lineal heavyweight champion who would not look invincible against that version of Williams.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali had average power but he could pinpoint punch and had handspeed, so he could land where others could not, Joe Walcott had the ability to pinpoint his punches but he hit much harder than Ali, as you can see with his 4 1 punch KDs of Louis(right hands) and 1 over Marciano(left Hook) and His clean Ko over Charles(L HOOK/Uppercut, Ali ..Ali had fast hands but the right and the hook could hurt you but he rarely KO'd someone with one punch

[Langford]

Ali's power can be described with

"float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"

Truer words were never spoken.

unless they were about his defense

"you're hands can't hit what your eyes can't see"

That is very true.

[Manassa]

People keep saying Ali had average power but then give him a 7/10 :huh

5/10, that's average, and that's what I'm sticking to. Seriously, to those people who are giving him 7/10, do you honestly believe there are six degrees of power below Ali? According to your ratings, Chris Byrd must be a five - who's below him?

[Robbi]

People keep saying Ali had average power but then give him a 7/10 :huh

5/10, that's average, and that's what I'm sticking to. Seriously, to those people who are giving him 7/10, do you honestly believe there are six degrees of power below Ali? According to your ratings, Chris Byrd must be a five - who's below him?

Maybe best squeezing things down. 1 to 5 probably, rather than 1 to 10?

[mcvey]

People keep saying Ali had average power but then give him a 7/10 :huh

5/10, that's average, and that's what I'm sticking to. Seriously, to those people who are giving him 7/10, do you honestly believe there are six degrees of power below Ali? According to your ratings, Chris Byrd must be a five - who's below him?
Well he did stop Lyle ,who was only stopped twice in his prime ,the other guy was Foreman.Stopped Bonavena ,when no one else did,so maybe hes a bit above a 5,not remotely in the Louis ,Baer,Marciano,class but perhaps a bit underated,its accuracy ,frequency and timing I suppose ,against correct delivery ,velocity,and pure power.

[Stonehands89]

A simple, but provocative question.

Ali did not have the killer instinct. He could hold a grudge (Floyd and Zora) but he never wanted to hurt anyone. He wanted to look good.
But he was in the hurt business... and he was a big man who had fast hands. When he settled down and jammed, he did not necessarily go for the KO as much as dazzle the man -he would vary the speed, the trajectory of the shot, flick some BS shots to set up other dazzling shots. Now and then he'd slam something in and we'd get a glimpse of something we may well have seen more often had Ali had sadism and planted feet.

I'd give him no more than a 6. Holyfield is over him and contrary to conventional wisdom, Holyfield could hit -you don't knock down Bowe with one shot, stop Tyson, or knock down Mercer period without a good power.

[Bill1234]

I give him a 6.5-7/10. When he planted his feet he could hit, but IMO it wouldn't KO anyone.

[Manassa]

Well he did stop Lyle ,who was only stopped twice in his prime ,the other guy was Foreman.Stopped Bonavena ,when no one else did,so maybe hes a bit above a 5,not remotely in the Louis ,Baer,Marciano,class but perhaps a bit underated,its accuracy ,frequency and timing I suppose ,against correct delivery ,velocity,and pure power.

Overrated more like it. People are giving Ali a 7/10 - that means he hits nearly as hard as Riddick Bowe. Never. All this 'when he planted his feet' stuff is crap because any heavyweight can punch with a fair amount of force when they want to - they're world class athletes. Ali stopped a few fighters, yea, but how many did he genuinely knock out? He whacked a tired Lyle & Foreman, okay, stopped Bonavena, good accomplishment there... Patterson, Liston, Quarry and Cooper were stopped twice apiece on technicalities (either accumulative damage or other). Frazier was stopped from accumulative injury - that's nine of his thirty seven knockouts discarded already. Where are Ali's other knockouts? Foster and Moore, light heavyweights? Williams & Folley were good wins and pretty solid displays of punching, but they were hardly primed and ready to fight. Don't confuse 'dazzled by speed' with 'raw power' - Ali stopped fighters like London & Ellis because he was too good for them, they couldn't fight back, rather than because he had solid power. Very, very rarely did Ali demonstrate a powerful punch that scrambled the senses of his opponents - against Bonavena, Lyle and maybe Foreman you could argue - but that's it. Maybe one or two other notables in a career of sixty one fights. Not the stuff of a 7/10 power puncher.

Ali's punching as a whole was good when he wanted to actually fight. His power, however, was no more than average (that means 5/10)- didn't know how to throw his weight into shots.

[Manassa]

You won't stop Foreman with one combo without good enough power either. He was no one punch KO artist, unless you're counting Liston, but he had sting and pop on his punches.

Of course, and so he should. He was a world class athlete. Doesn't mean he hit hard for a heavyweight though.

[hobgoblin]

I'm as big an Ali fan as there is and i gotta say i can't believe Ali hits as hard as Holyfield, who i consider underrated power wise.

He does. Larry Holmes said this. Holmes doesn't always express popular opinion but I usually believe him. Holmes said that Holy hit like Ali, with the same power, except his punches were not as sharp as Ali's. This is a pretty good source if you ask me.

For my money: Ali did not have 1 punch KO power nor did he have the style to finish someone off really quickly. Holyfield could be a brawler at times who would wildly come at you and swing with all his might. Ali would always dance, move around a lot as he was punching - and so he wasn't swinging with all his might trying to get a guy outta quick.

That dancing style is why Ali rarely utilized his power the most. You see a famous flurry (forget which round - probably 6) where the announcer screans, "Liston is hurt! Liston is hurt!" - Ali sits down on his punches and wails away. That's a good exception and an example of what Ali could do. His punches could be very HEAVY as he sat down and put his weight on them. Didn't have EXPLOSIVENESS although his speed did offer the effect of a snap.

Yep, I'd rate his POTENTIAL power a 7 but the actual power he generated - probably a 4 or 5 (closer to 5).

[groove]

Ironically Ali scored a good one punch KO against Folley in his last fight before exile. After exile he had trouble with his hands and Ferdie had to inject him before fights. That why he slapped alot against inferior opponents like Blin and Wepner.

[JohnThomas1]

He does. Larry Holmes said this. Holmes doesn't always express popular opinion but I usually believe him. Holmes said that Holy hit like Ali, with the same power, except his punches were not as sharp as Ali's. This is a pretty good source if you ask me.

For my money: Ali did not have 1 punch KO power nor did he have the style to finish someone off really quickly. Holyfield could be a brawler at times who would wildly come at you and swing with all his might. Ali would always dance, move around a lot as he was punching - and so he wasn't swinging with all his might trying to get a guy outta quick.

That dancing style is why Ali rarely utilized his power the most. You see a famous flurry (forget which round - probably 6) where the announcer screans, "Liston is hurt! Liston is hurt!" - Ali sits down on his punches and wails away. That's a good exception and an example of what Ali could do. His punches could be very HEAVY as he sat down and put his weight on them. Didn't have EXPLOSIVENESS although his speed did offer the effect of a snap.

Yep, I'd rate his POTENTIAL power a 7 but the actual power he generated - probably a 4 or 5 (closer to 5).

Larry also said Shavers, Norton and Cooney would have beaten peak Tyson so i'll not stake everything on his words. It's funny, you are debating pro Ali power against me yet i rate his power better than you i think. I'd feel quite comfortable giving him a 7.5, Holyfield an 8 or 8.5. By seeing Holyfield as the harder hitter i am not slighting Ali. His unbelievable speed give him great punch velocity added to the fact many simply did not see some of his punches, which definitely adds to the stoppage potential. Holyfield hit heavy tho most every punch.

[Robbi]

Larry also said Shavers, Norton and Cooney would have beaten peak Tyson so i'll not stake everything on his words. It's funny, you are debating pro Ali power against me yet i rate his power better than you i think. I'd feel quite comfortable giving him a 7.5, Holyfield an 8 or 8.5. By seeing Holyfield as the harder hitter i am not slighting Ali. His unbelievable speed give him great punch velocity added to the fact many simply did not see some of his punches, which definitely adds to the stoppage potential. Holyfield hit heavy tho most every punch.

Cooney would have lasted 4 rounds with a prime Tyson, and thats pushing it for him. Cooney was very tall, lacked movement, and wasn't exactly as sharp as a razor at long range. Tyson lived for those type of opponents.

"Shavers, Norton, and Cooney would have beaten a prime Tyson". Holmes is just trying to talk up his opponents and make them look better than they actually were, thus make his resume look better.

[Luigi1985]

He had average power for the standards of the elite fighters, his precision and speed were the results why the KO´s happened, not his power, I don´t understand how some here can give a 7 out of 10...

[JohnThomas1]

"Shavers, Norton, and Cooney would have beaten a prime Tyson". Holmes is just trying to talk up his opponents and make them look better than they actually were, thus make his resume look better.

Yes, it is oh so obvious i didn't think i needed to say it mate.

[mcvey]

Overrated more like it. People are giving Ali a 7/10 - that means he hits nearly as hard as Riddick Bowe. Never. All this 'when he planted his feet' stuff is crap because any heavyweight can punch with a fair amount of force when they want to - they're world class athletes. Ali stopped a few fighters, yea, but how many did he genuinely knock out? He whacked a tired Lyle & Foreman, okay, stopped Bonavena, good accomplishment there... Patterson, Liston, Quarry and Cooper were stopped twice apiece on technicalities (either accumulative damage or other). Frazier was stopped from accumulative injury - that's nine of his thirty seven knockouts discarded already. Where are Ali's other knockouts? Foster and Moore, light heavyweights? Williams & Folley were good wins and pretty solid displays of punching, but they were hardly primed and ready to fight. Don't confuse 'dazzled by speed' with 'raw power' - Ali stopped fighters like London & Ellis because he was too good for them, they couldn't fight back, rather than because he had solid power. Very, very rarely did Ali demonstrate a powerful punch that scrambled the senses of his opponents - against Bonavena, Lyle and maybe Foreman you could argue - but that's it. Maybe one or two other notables in a career of sixty one fights. Not the stuff of a 7/10 power puncher.

Ali's punching as a whole was good when he wanted to actually fight. His power, however, was no more than average (that means 5/10)- didn't know how to throw his weight into shots.
Im familiar with Alis record ,I watched the fights when they took place.
Ali hit Mildenberger a shot that made him turn a somersault,kod Bonavena ,no else did and Lyle,I didnt suggest he had real power ,just that he might be underated.I dont think Im confusing anything,I stated the diference between Ali and the real hitters like Louis and Marciano,in my post.

[Manassa]

Im familiar with Alis record ,I watched the fights when they took place.
Ali hit Mildenberger a shot that made him turn a somersault,kod Bonavena ,no else did and Lyle,I didnt suggest he had real power ,just that he might be underated.I dont think Im confusing anything,I stated the diference between Ali and the real hitters like Louis and Marciano,in my post.

The difference is, Louis hit hard and Ali didn't. By a big margin.

[Robbi]

The difference is, Louis hit hard and Ali didn't. By a big margin.

Manassa. How far a margin would you seperate the power between Holmes and Ali?. Holmes wasn't exactly a puncher either, but 8 consecutive stoppages inside the distance aint bad going at all for someone who wasn't known for power. I'm pretty sure that still stands as a record for heavyweight title defenses ending via KO/TKO.

However, after the Cooney fight he never stopped anyone until the annilhilation he dished out against Frazier. And Holmes was very busy between those fights.

[Vantage_West]

he had that fast speedy punches in the early rounds which were more to pospon the fight for a bit and to let him win a few rounds...his main objectivce was never for a first round ko but to hold it on a bit for entertainment.

ali could punch he hurt frazier in the II and III fight he koed foreman he koed lyle ,he rocked quarry, backed up chuvalo.

look at the london- ali flurry at the end he couls throw tons of punches but when he saw an opening he really did sit down on his punches and could bang.

i would like to refer you to his style and his movement. he used to move to his left spitting that left hand then he will double it up then throw a right hand.now when he is standing still there is not much to worry about becuase your glove are covering up

but when he moved to his left the jab kept your guard up then he stops jolts foreward and lands a right cross righ on the chin becuase the guard is at the wrong place to block the shot at.

he could ko guys he couls hurt guy and he wouild load up on shots.

he does have power he just didnt use it when he was on his bicycle

[Mendoza]

I'm as big an Ali fan as there is and i gotta say i can't believe Ali hits as hard as Holyfield, who i consider underrated power wise.

Agreed. I too beleive Holyfield hit harder than Ali. The thing to focus on here is Ali's power stayed with him. Ali's his right cross could hurt you late in a fight. This right cross that sent Foreman reeling and down happened in 8th round. The right cross that made Ron Lyle do funny things in route to TKO win happened in the 11th round. And of coruse Ali cracked a tough nut in Bonevena after many hard blows to score a 15th round KO.

Most fighters tend to lose the power, speed and snap of their punches as the rounds go on. Ali's power, speed, and snap were still there when he needed in in the mid to late rounds.

[Robbi]

Holmes stopped Evangelista, Spinks, and Shavers. And all those opponents took Ali the distance.

Berbick and Norton went the full course with both.

[ChrisPontius]

Agreed. I too beleive Holyfield hit harder than Ali. The thing to focus on here is Ali's power stayed with him. Ali's his right cross could hurt you late in a fight. This right cross that sent Foreman reeling and down happened in 8th round. The right cross that made Ron Lyle do funny things in route to TKO win happened in the 11th round. And of coruse Ali cracked a tough nut in Bonevena after many hard blows to score a 15th round KO.

Most fighters tend to lose the power, speed and snap of their punches as the rounds go on. Ali's power, speed, and snap were still there when he needed in in the mid to late rounds.

Holyfield looked as fresh as he ever was when he stopped Tyson in the 10th/11th round though. His stamina (especially when bulked up) wasn't as good as Ali's, but it was good for sure as Tyson found out.

[Manassa]

Manassa. How far a margin would you seperate the power between Holmes and Ali?. Holmes wasn't exactly a puncher either, but 8 consecutive stoppages inside the distance aint bad going at all for someone who wasn't known for power. I'm pretty sure that still stands as a record for heavyweight title defenses ending via KO/TKO.

However, after the Cooney fight he never stopped anyone until the annilhilation he dished out against Frazier. And Holmes was very busy between those fights.

Holmes genuinely rattled his opponents. Ali could stun a man, but not as frequently. If Ali's a 5, Holmes would be a 6.5.

[Robbi]

Holmes genuinely rattled his opponents. Ali could stun a man, but not as frequently. If Ali's a 5, Holmes would be a 6.5.

Agreed. I was thinking the exact same, Holmes one up over Ali. Id probably go with 6.0 or no matter how highly someone rates Ali's power, Holmes deserves that slight one point edge.

[garymcfall]

From the book Muhammad Ali His Life And Times:

"Nilon and I were standing, talking over Sonny , while he was lying on one of those metal tables. All Sonny said was " Thats not the guy I was supposed to fight, that guy could punch.."

Just after the first Clay - Liston fight.

[fg2227]

Ken norton was asked who hit harder Ali or Holmes and he said Ali.

[Duodenum]

It would be interesting to get a straight answer and consensus about Ali's punching power from Chuvalo, Foreman and Wepner, as they were on the receiving end of some of the hardest punches and most sustained offensive barrages Muhammad ever delivered. (The right hand he took out Foreman with was supposedly the hardest single punch of his career. His whole body straightened out with a jolt when he landed it.) Joe Bugner also took some pretty good whacks to his body from Ali in Malaysia.

Comparing the power of Holmes to Ali is a somewhat tricky proposition for me. Muhammad dropped Folley, London, Lavorante, Powell, Coopman, Blin, Foster, Foreman and Wepner for the count. (I know that Tony Perez waved off the count on Wepner at seven, but the fact remains that Chuck was still struggling to get back up, and made it unassisted a couple seconds after Perez would have counted ten, so I consider that a clean knockout for all intents and purposes.) That's nine opponents with winning records down for the count.

Holmes only did that to Evangelista and Zanon in his prime, although he came close to doing it with his uppercut against Weaver. The jab he floored Ocasio with to score his first knockdown against Jaws nearly had Ossie down for the full count as well.

Larry banked on a single blow to decide the outcome of his matches more than Muhammad did. His uppercut against Weaver, his ninth round right hand off the ropes against Witherspoon, and the thumb he jammed in LeDoux's eye to send Scott to his knees are good (if not always legal) examples of this. His jab was also harder than Ali's, much harder if he was advancing on an opponent.

Shortly before Holmes dropped Leon Spinks, he walloped Leon with a left hook which made his hapless target's entire body quiver. But when Larry had an opponent on the ropes, in serious trouble, he frequently became a one armed puncher, using his left only to measure his foe prior to uncorking his right repeatedly. (This is typified by the way he finished off both Leon Spinks and Marvis Frazier.)

Unlike Holmes, we don't see Ali stick out his left as a measuring device so often. When he first got Lyle on the ropes in their final round, he took a step back, then began doubling up on his hook. In the second round of his middle fight with Smokin' Joe, some of the bombs he drove Frazier back to the ropes with were multiple hooks. Even in retirement, Muhammad has demonstrated a fine hook on the heavy bag for the camera on a few occasions. Ali had the far more damaging hook, while Holmes had the more hurtful jab (when he chose to sit down on it, and use it as an offensive weapon).

While Ali nailed Bugner with some good bodyshots in their rematch, they didn't have the perceptible impact that Larry's late body attack had on Carl Williams.

I wouldn't be confident picking one over the other without an opportunity to hold a heavy bag for them both to pound away on.

[Duodenum]

Ken norton was asked who hit harder Ali or Holmes and he said Ali.Interestingly, Berbick also indicated this.

[JohnThomas1]

Interestingly, Berbick also indicated this.

Yeah it's an interesting one isn't it mate. Holmes threw the consistently heavier blows but Ali has some of the better single blow results in some ways. Ali has some single punch wreckages, but Larry was more of a clubbing puncher if it makes sense as he was still fast as hell. Many stoppages he clubbed the guy to death, Marvis Frazier etc. I'll say one thing, Holmes stopped a lot of people that had never been stopped/and or had good chins thru sheer class, prolonged steady pressure, stamina and will to win. The Weaver stoppage did actuall come at the end of a gruelling bout more than anything else. Holmes blows heavier, Ali's more potentially dangerous i think.

[Mendoza]

Yeah it's an interesting one isn't it mate. Holmes threw the consistently heavier blows but Ali has some of the better single blow results in some ways. Ali has some single punch wreckages, but Larry was more of a clubbing puncher if it makes sense as he was still fast as hell. Many stoppages he clubbed the guy to death, Marvis Frazier etc. I'll say one thing, Holmes stopped a lot of people that had never been stopped/and or had good chins thru sheer class, prolonged steady pressure, stamina and will to win. The Weaver stoppage did actuall come at the end of a gruelling bout more than anything else. Holmes blows heavier, Ali's more potentially dangerous i think.

I think Holmes hit a little harder and had more mercy on his victims.

[Stonehands89]

You won't stop Foreman with one combo without good enough power either. He was no one punch KO artist, unless you're counting Liston, but he had sting and pop on his punches.
I disagree. Foreman was completely spent. It was a good shot, but had Ali landed 5 of them in round 1 or 2 or 3, Foreman would have went nowhere.

[McGrain]

I disagree. Foreman was completely spent. It was a good shot, but had Ali landed 5 of them in round 1 or 2 or 3, Foreman would have went nowhere.


I agree. A MW probably could have ditched Foreman at that point.

[JohnThomas1]

I think Holmes hit a little harder and had more mercy on his victims.

Yeah, it's a tough one.

[Robbi]

I disagree. Foreman was completely spent. It was a good shot, but had Ali landed 5 of them in round 1 or 2 or 3, Foreman would have went nowhere.

I had a good debate about Ali's knockout against Foreman with JT a couple of months back. It was mainly based around Foreman's chin, rather than Ali's power.

JT was basically excluding Foreman's knockout loss to Ali when it came to rating the quality of his chin throughout his career, thus putting the stoppage down to exhaustion and not the punches.

I don't buy into that, as having a good chin isn't soley about taking shots when concentration levels are high, and fighters are feeling fresh mentally as well as physically.

It goes without saying most fighters are much more vulnerable late, rather than early. Depending on how a certain fight has developed, and exactly how powerful the other opponents fists are.

One fighter might well absorb and dish out heavy punches, then be stopped during 10th round of high paced fight when his opponents power is "reasonable".

The punches which put the fighter down during the 10th and knocked him out far out-weight the physical state of the fighter when it comes to rating his chin.

If a fighter does fall over from exhaustion, example "missing a punch" and the referee waves the fight off, thats a different matter altogether.

[JohnThomas1]

I had a good debate about Ali's knockout against Foreman with JT a couple of months back. It was mainly based around Foreman's chin, rather than Ali's power.

JT was basically excluding Foreman's knockout loss to Ali when it came to rating the quality of his chin throughout his career, thus putting the stoppage down to exhaustion and not the punches.

I don't buy into that, as having a good chin isn't soley about taking shots when concentration levels are high, and fighters are feeling fresh mentally as well as physically.

It goes without saying most fighters are much more vulnerable late, rather than early. Depending on how a certain fight has developed, and exactly how powerful the other opponents fists are.

One fighter might well absorb and dish out heavy punches, then be stopped during 10th round of high paced fight when his opponents power is "reasonable".

The punches which put the fighter down during the 10th and knocked him out far out-weight the physical state of the fighter when it comes to rating his chin.

If a fighter does fall over from exhaustion, example "missing a punch" and the referee waves the fight off, thats a different matter altogether.

I have to say i'm glad to have an esteemed debator such as Stonehands sitting toward my side (it seems) of the fence. My thing was and is, i don't think Foreman was ever going to be under the same duress again. You see, even beside the exhaustionphysical factor was the mental side of things. This was also a mental stoppage IMO.

First the exhaustion side - Foreman played right into Ali's hands and completely punched himself out. Ali is possibly the only foe who could have achieved this under stationary circumstances. Added to this the heat and humidity was extreme, more extreme than George was ever to face again i'd venture. So we have two factors that are unlikely to ever be faced again.

On the mental side, imagine George's disdain and chagrin to find Ali had such immense support going into the bout. Ali had played all the right tunes and again, George was unlikely to ever see such popularity against him again. Then we have Ali taking all he had and then some while routinely talking back and tormenting, as well as popping plenty of accurate blows into Georges face at opportune times. Ali seemed immune to his power, and certainly not fearfull. Disdainful really. Get inside George's head by the time of the fateful round, utterly spent, next to no support, an opponent that refused to give respect, let alone lose, and (added to the rest of my ballyhoo) you have the makings of a very very rare event.

Bottom line - the culmination of factors, some extraordinary make me confident to say the Ali stoppage should not be held over strongly when scrutinising George's overall durability. I also believe George stated he could have risen. This supports my claim per plenty of mental involvement in the stoppage as well.

Very bottom line - totally spent both mentally and physically IMO.

[Robbi]

I have to say i'm glad to have an esteemed debator such as Stonehands sitting toward my side (it seems) of the fence. My thing was and is, i don't think Foreman was ever going to be under the same duress again. You see, even beside the exhaustionphysical factor was the mental side of things. This was also a mental stoppage IMO.

First the exhaustion side - Foreman played right into Ali's hands and completely punched himself out. Ali is possibly the only foe who could have achieved this under stationary circumstances. Added to this the heat and humidity was extreme, more extreme than George was ever to face again i'd venture. So we have two factors that are unlikely to ever be faced again.

On the mental side, imagine George's disdain and chagrin to find Ali had such immense support going into the bout. Ali had played all the right tunes and again, George was unlikely to ever see such popularity against him again. Then we have Ali taking all he had and then some while routinely talking back and tormenting, as well as popping plenty of accurate blows into Georges face at opportune times. Ali seemed immune to his power, and certainly not fearfull. Disdainful really. Get inside George's head by the time of the fateful round, utterly spent, next to no support, an opponent that refused to give respect, let alone lose, and (added to the rest of my ballyhoo) you have the makings of a very very rare event.

Bottom line - the culmination of factors, some extraordinary make me confident to say the Ali stoppage should not be held over strongly when scrutinising George's overall durability. I also believe George stated he could have risen. This supports my claim per plenty of mental involvement in the stoppage as well.

Very bottom line - totally spent both mentally and physically IMO.

JT. I was actually hoping you were not going to reply as it would be opening a can of worms, as I quoted Stonehands. However, your name happpened to be mentioned so you had every right to do so. Not that I'm going to back down in a friendly arguement.

The bottom line is, you totally discount Ali's punches which dropped and knocked out Foreman. I happen to take into consideration the punches and the "exhuastion".

Foreman's punch resistance can't be totally overlooked in Zaire, you think otherwise. I never said at any point when the debate kicked off that Foreman had terrible chin throughout his career when looking at the scales and weighing up the pros and cons.

The chin wasn't great in Zaire for Big George. Live with it.

[JohnThomas1]

The bottom line is, you totally discount Ali's punches which dropped and knocked out Foreman. I happen to take into consideration the punches and the "exhuastion".


Look, obviously the factors are three, mental and physical exhaustion and punishment sustained. As for "totally discount", that's not right. Ali is my favourite heavyweight and you will seldom see me taking credit off him - anywhere.

Foreman's punch resistance can't be totally overlooked in Zaire, you think otherwise.

What i actually said was "make me confident to say the Ali stoppage should not be held over strongly when scrutinising George's overall durability."

No-where have i called for it to be totally overlooked. I stand by the above. Over strongly will differ a little on an individuals personal view of course.

I never said at any point when the debate kicked off that Foreman had terrible chin throughout his career when looking at the scales and weighing up the pros and cons.

I hope i never said you did :huh

The chin wasn't great in Zaire for Big George. Live with it.

Mate, live with the fact that others have different opinions. Don't think my view is extreme or will stand alone on this one. I might even be right :D

[Robbi]

I have to say i'm glad to have an esteemed debator such as Stonehands sitting toward my side (it seems) of the fence. My thing was and is, i don't think Foreman was ever going to be under the same duress again. You see, even beside the exhaustionphysical factor was the mental side of things. This was also a mental stoppage IMO.

First the exhaustion side - Foreman played right into Ali's hands and completely punched himself out. Ali is possibly the only foe who could have achieved this under stationary circumstances. Added to this the heat and humidity was extreme, more extreme than George was ever to face again i'd venture. So we have two factors that are unlikely to ever be faced again.

On the mental side, imagine George's disdain and chagrin to find Ali had such immense support going into the bout. Ali had played all the right tunes and again, George was unlikely to ever see such popularity against him again. Then we have Ali taking all he had and then some while routinely talking back and tormenting, as well as popping plenty of accurate blows into Georges face at opportune times. Ali seemed immune to his power, and certainly not fearfull. Disdainful really. Get inside George's head by the time of the fateful round, utterly spent, next to no support, an opponent that refused to give respect, let alone lose, and (added to the rest of my ballyhoo) you have the makings of a very very rare event.

Bottom line - the culmination of factors, some extraordinary make me confident to say the Ali stoppage should not be held over strongly when scrutinising George's overall durability. I also believe George stated he could have risen. This supports my claim per plenty of mental involvement in the stoppage as well.

Very bottom line - totally spent both mentally and physically IMO.

Everything above which happened within the 8 rounds, exhaustion, tormenting, humidity, utterly spent, all taken on board and digested.

Thats all part of the game JT, it does nothing to convince me to change my mind. You have been saying Ali's power is underestimated on this very thread, making your case even weaker to an extent.

My point is, Foreman hitting the canvas wasn't just exhaustion and being mentally spent. Other fighters could have hung in there longer with Ali. Marciano, Holyfield and Holmes without a doubt in my mind, if they threw the same punch volume as Foreman and the fight developed in the same fashion. Yes, Ali still on the ropes.

[JohnThomas1]

Everything above which happened within the 8 rounds, exhaustion, tormenting, humidity, utterly spent, all taken on board and digested.

Thats all part of the game JT, it does nothing to convince me to change my mind.

I don't expect to change your mind.

You have been saying Ali's power is underestimated on this very thread, making your case even weaker to an extent.


This one will be rather interesting then, with perhaps a bit of egg for the finish.

Show me where i said "on this very thread" Ali's power is underrated please.

:hey

[Robbi]

I'm as big an Ali fan as there is and i gotta say i can't believe Ali hits as hard as Holyfield, who i consider underrated power wise.

I read it at 100mph, rather than 50mph.

[JohnThomas1]

I read it at 100mph, rather than 50mph.

:yep


Of course Ali's power is underrated in some circles.

[Robbi]

:yep


Of course Ali's power is underrated in some circles.

As you know, power aint all down to having an opponent looking up at the lights on his back. Ali's power was decent.

[Duodenum]

Yeah it's an interesting one isn't it mate. Holmes threw the consistently heavier blows but Ali has some of the better single blow results in some ways. Ali has some single punch wreckages, but Larry was more of a clubbing puncher if it makes sense as he was still fast as hell. Many stoppages he clubbed the guy to death, Marvis Frazier etc. I'll say one thing, Holmes stopped a lot of people that had never been stopped/and or had good chins thru sheer class, prolonged steady pressure, stamina and will to win. The Weaver stoppage did actually come at the end of a gruelling bout more than anything else. Holmes blows heavier, Ali's more potentially dangerous i think.Right. Larry did indeed club many opponents into submission, while Muhammad tended to place his punches with greater precision sometimes. Pinpoint accuracy was the key to his dispatching of Folley, London and Bonavena. As fast as Holmes was, I don't think he was quite the sharpshooter Ali could sometimes be.

In Kinshasa, the final blow against Foreman spun George's head pretty impressively. Yes, Foreman was fatigued, but nobody else besides Lyle was ever able to deck George in such a definitive fashion, not Frazier (who nailed Foreman with some solid hooks in their rematch) or Cooney. Holyfield, Cooney, Briggs, Savarese, Stewart and Grimsley were all sizable and respectable punchers who took George further during his second career than Ali did, yet couldn't land him.

When it comes to punching power, trying to measure Ali's against Holmes is a little of an apples and oranges comparison, methinks.

[JohnThomas1]

Right. Larry did indeed club many opponents into submission, while Muhammad tended to place his punches with greater precision sometimes. Pinpoint accuracy was the key to his dispatching of Folley, London and Bonavena. As fast as Holmes was, I don't think he was quite the sharpshooter Ali could sometimes be.

In Kinshasa, the final blow against Foreman spun George's head pretty impressively. Yes, Foreman was fatigued, but nobody else besides Lyle was ever able to deck George in such a definitive fashion, not Frazier (who nailed Foreman with some solid hooks in their rematch) or Cooney. Holyfield, Cooney, Briggs, Savarese, Stewart and Grimsley were all sizable and respectable punchers who took George further during his second career than Ali did, yet couldn't land him.

When it comes to punching power, trying to measure Ali's against Holmes is a little of an apples and oranges comparison, methinks.

Totally agree with most of that. I will say tho that even tho older, George was a heckuva lot more savvy second career, especially when it came to pacing himself. It took a while to sink in, but he did indeed learn a lot from that fight in Zaire. Lyle decked George more on pure power than anything, and hit substancially harder than Ali. George did show some superb whisker in his second career tho, anyone rating his chin anything below well above average is kidding themselves. Personally i rate it superb.

[Stonehands89]

Totally agree with most of that. I will say tho that even tho older, George was a heckuva lot more savvy second career, especially when it came to pacing himself. It took a while to sink in, but he did indeed learn a lot from that fight in Zaire. Lyle decked George more on pure power than anything, and hit substancially harder than Ali. George did show some superb whisker in his second career tho, anyone rating his chin anything below well above average is kidding themselves. Personally i rate it superb.
Foreman has said repeatedely that he was the "dope" in the "rope-a-dope". I am convinced that it was exhaustion and very little to do with his chin. Foreman was not kind of twirled down like you would if you were spent.

Additionally, George said that he was watching Archie count for him... this is not unusual for a fighter to do -take directions from his corner when down or hurt, but Archie Moore (his trainer) had a count that was slower by a multiple of 2. The ref, Zak something or other, counted fast if my memory serves me, and George was able to get up, but too late.

[fg2227]

The thing about george he always has an excuse, real bad loser.

[groove]

Ali tamed 2 bullies at the time he fought them - Liston then Foreman. Bullies quit mentally even more so than physically. Once Ali was in that ring he was never intimidated like other fighters.

[JohnThomas1]

The thing about george he always has an excuse, real bad loser.

He's in good company tho, Duran is no different among myriads of others.

[JohnThomas1]

Foreman has said repeatedely that he was the "dope" in the "rope-a-dope". I am convinced that it was exhaustion and very little to do with his chin. Foreman was not kind of twirled down like you would if you were spent.

Additionally, George said that he was watching Archie count for him... this is not unusual for a fighter to do -take directions from his corner when down or hurt, but Archie Moore (his trainer) had a count that was slower by a multiple of 2. The ref, Zak something or other, counted fast if my memory serves me, and George was able to get up, but too late.

Good stuff mate

:good

[Ramon Rojo]

Ali had good power. He knocked out Foley with one punch.

[META5]

Ali could hit when he really wanted to, but he is of the same ilk as Holyfield and Holmes, with Ali being the sharper puncher and them, the heavier handed punchers.

Ali threw more with disorientating power than true concussive power, although, one shot has been proven to be a true difference maker e.g. Bonavena, Lyle ... and his sharpness and accuracy able to stagger and down opponents in an instant e.g. Liston in 1st fight, Folley

[Robbi]

Foreman has said repeatedely that he was the "dope" in the "rope-a-dope". I am convinced that it was exhaustion and very little to do with his chin. Foreman was not kind of twirled down like you would if you were spent.

Additionally, George said that he was watching Archie count for him... this is not unusual for a fighter to do -take directions from his corner when down or hurt, but Archie Moore (his trainer) had a count that was slower by a multiple of 2. The ref, Zak something or other, counted fast if my memory serves me, and George was able to get up, but too late.

So when it comes to rating Foreman's chin, Zaire can be totally forgotten about altogether?. Getting rattled with a combination and ending up on the floor is as good as Foreman staying on his feet?. Thats certainly the way Mr Thomas sees things or bordering on it.

Even if George was able to rise and come back for more suffering, he still hit the canvas. However, his recovery powers would then be further enhanced. Still doesn't matter if he came back to pull out the win, he hit the canvas. Fantasy and unrealistic on my behalf, as what happened, happened.

Humidity, exhaustion, tormented, etc. Thats been part of boxing since "Toledo, Ohio" and centuries beyond. Not so much these days with air conditioning inside casinos, and outdoor arenas not as popular as a few decades ago.


Never forget about the punches in Zaire. :bbb

[JohnThomas1]

So when it comes to rating Foreman's chin, Zaire can be totally forgotten about altogether?. Getting rattled with a combination and ending up on the floor is as good as Foreman staying on his feet?. Thats certainly the way Mr Thomas sees things or bordering on it.


You're getting adventurous/reckless with your wording again. Mr Thomas didn't say anything even remotely close. Again.

Even if George was able to rise and come back for more suffering, he still hit the canvas. However, his recovery powers would then be further enhanced. Still doesn't matter if he came back to pull out the win, he hit the canvas. Fantasy and unrealistic on my behalf, as what happened, happened.

Holmes hit the canvas a handful of times, including against the average punching Snipes. Via your criteria Holmes has a glass jaw?

Humidity, exhaustion, tormented, etc. Thats been part of boxing since "Toledo, Ohio" and centuries beyond. Not so much these days with air conditioning inside casinos, and outdoor arenas not as popular as a few decades ago.

The thing is Stone, myself and others factor in the various intangibles here, some that are extreme and way out of the norm, to gain a suitably realistic (in our opinion) take on the matter. You, for whatever reason (non comprehension, extreme view, hard view on supposed weakness etc i don't know) don't.

[Robbi]

I think a new rule should be applied to boxing. Instead of a knockout or technical knockout, we should have an exhaustion stoppage. This stoppage would be the decision of the referee, and consultation with the doctor when exactly it would be administered, if needed during a contest.

A local commissioner would be seated at ringside as an "exhaustion moderator" who gets the final say on the stoppage being a KO/TKO or an exhaustion stoppage. He can overrule the referee and the doctor. Any fighter who gets knocked down over the course of a fight and is totally exhausted, tormented, and mentally beaten, gets the benefit of the doubt if in the opinion of the officials he was unable to continue due to everything out-weighing the punches stopping the fighter.

[JohnThomas1]

I think a new rule should be applied to boxing. Instead of a knockout or technical knockout, we should have an exhaustion stoppage. This stoppage would be the decision of the referee, and consultation with the doctor when exactly it would be administered, if needed during a contest.

A local commissioner would be seated at ringside as an "exhaustion moderator" who gets the final say on the stoppage being a KO/TKO or an exhaustion stoppage. He can overrule the referee and the doctor. Any fighter who gets knocked down over the course of a fight and is totally exhausted, tormented, and mentally beaten, gets the benefit of the doubt if in the opinion of the officials he was unable to continue due to everything out-weighing the punches stopping the fighter.

We'll call it the Robbi rehabilitation stoppage

:D

[Robbi]

I never said Foreman had a glass jaw. But in my opinion hitting the canvas against Ali shouldn't be overlooked when rating his chin, it can't be brushed to the side due to "exhaustion".

Holmes' chin was solid, just like Foreman's. He came off the canvas to stop Shavers and Snipes, thats a bit different to staying there and not getting up. Certainly when I rate Holmes' chin, I don't ignore the knockdowns he suffered, even though he hauled himself together to come back and win.

[Robbi]

We'll call it the Robbi rehabilitation stoppage

:D

You know I like to throw in a bit humour at times. :good

[JohnThomas1]

You know I like to throw in a bit humour at times. :good

Ditto, as just shown

:good

[Duodenum]

Any world class heavyweight, no matter how apparently light featherfisted he is, can occasionally turn one over perfectly. The amazing thing about the Snipes right hand is that Holmes got back up and recovered from it as quickly as he did.

Shavers could be expected to do that to Holmes (or virtually any heavyweight for that matter). But the previously uncharacteristic sudden display of power Snipes unexpectably sprung on Larry would have dethroned many heavyweight champions anticipating a relatively routine victory. It was the same sort of punch Rachman and McCall dethroned Lennox Lewis with. Renaldo's technical execution of that right was nearly flawless. Only a true ATG heavyweight could have recovered from that sort of ambush, as Frazier did in the first meeting with Bonavena, or Ali against Cooper, or Jack Johnson against Ketchel. (I realize Stan only weighed 159 pounds, but he did surprise Lil' Artha with a truly massive shot, and it's crucial to Johnson's legacy that he came off the deck to win so quickly.)

Foreman's legacy would not be quite the same without his rise from the canvas to triumph over Lyle.

I realize I'm digressing from the thread topic here, but a number of prominent heavyweights never came off the floor to win. (Tyson, Lewis, and Liston, to name a few of the more recent ones.)

My suspicion is that Foreman's chin actually ossified when he reincarnated. The version of George who faced Lyle might have been floored by Cooney's hook, while the edition of Foreman who stood up to Gentleman Gerry's bomb could possibly have kept his feet against Lyle. The lumbering monster who effortlessly shoved Morrison about may have been the physically strongest boxing champion who ever lived. His ability to take a punch seems to have been bolstered as well. Although resistance training is not without controversy in boxing, it does seem to have some value in enhancing the ability to withstand and recover from punishment, when used to strengthen and develop the muscles which can help absorb the shock from heavy punches.

One thing Ali's mobility sometimes allowed him to do was step quickly out of his opponent's line of vision, and spin the point of his target's jaw. He did this twice against Folley, and Zora never really recovered from that first hook knockdown which turned the match Ali's way. The threat of his speed could also cause his objective to flinch, as appeared the case with London. Of course it's often the punch one doesn't see which takes him out. Folley never saw what hit him, and his speed literally blinded London. As fast as Holmes was, he was usually facing his adversary, beating him into submission rather than catching him off-balance.

In the bout where Liston was dethroned, he was nearly dropped by a right hand at the outset of round three, a right hand that looked an awful lot like the one which produced the knockdown against Sonny in the Lewiston rematch with Ali. (That near KD which sent Liston back to the ropes is a key reason why I believe the flooring in Maine to have been legitimate. Compare the footage. They're virtually identical.) Muhammad was more likely to catch a challenger out of position.

While this is an interesting topic to speculate about, I wouldn't care to be hit by either one. (Even with Ali in his present condition.)

[Sonny Carson]

Ken norton was asked who hit harder Ali or Holmes and he said Ali.
Well he was hurt worse by Holmes so maybe it's just a pride thing.

[Stonehands89]

He's in good company tho, Duran is no different among myriads of others.

Duran is completely ridiculous.

Even the shot by Barkley that sent his head spinning like "The Exorcist" was minimized. Remember that shot? It was round 8 I think and Barkley came up in a short pivot with a short left hook that landed flush. And what does Duran say?

"he hit me on my neck and knocked me off balance"

The fact is, his eyes rolled around like a loony tune.

[Stonehands89]

Ali tamed 2 bullies at the time he fought them - Liston then Foreman. Bullies quit mentally even more so than physically. Once Ali was in that ring he was never intimidated like other fighters.

Define "bully" please.

[Stonehands89]

My suspicion is that Foreman's chin actually ossified when he reincarnated. The version of George who faced Lyle might have been floored by Cooney's hook, while the edition of Foreman who stood up to Gentleman Gerry's bomb could possibly have kept his feet against Lyle. The lumbering monster who effortlessly shoved Morrison about may have been the physically strongest boxing champion who ever lived. His ability to take a punch seems to have been bolstered as well. Although resistance training is not without controversy in boxing, it does seem to have some value in enhancing the ability to withstand and recover from punishment, when used to strengthen and develop the muscles which can help absorb the shock from heavy punches.
Ossification. Interesting and your suspicion is shared here.

1987+ Foreman was a different fighter with a better chin. He was plenty heavier and his neck was thicker and so served as a better shock absorber. I suspect that it was more than that. Foreman went on sabbatical -literally-and returned a more formidable man. He offered his life to something larger than himself and believed that the power appointed him an instrument. He became a man with a destiny -personal and spiritual. He was taken the shots -period. And so he did. Old Foreman is scary in that sense. I got the feeling when watching his bouts against Alex Stewart and Moorer that here was a man who was prepared to die.

Holyfield is an example of the good and the bad of such a mindset. For other examples in history, see John Brown and the major slave rebels like Nat Turner and Gabriel. See Oliver Cromwell.

Anyway, a large % of the steel in chins is determination and will and the belief that it cannot be dented. "I think, therefore I am" said Descartes. And it applies in the naked ring more than most places.

[Robbi]

Anyway, a large % of the steel in chins is determination and will and the belief that it cannot be dented. "I think, therefore I am" said Descartes. And it applies in the naked ring more than most places.

Agreed. Myself and Manassa were discussing Hagler's chin on another thread. Taking shots has much to do with concentration, which ties in with your determination, will, and belief. As I said on the other thread "mind over matter".

Prime Chavez was a great example. He never even blinked when a bomb landed on his chin, it was like he wasn't even being hit with his reaction to a heavy punch.

Neck muscles toughen up the ability to take shots.

[My dinner with Conteh]

6-6.5. A fair puncher. Norton said he could punch ok but Patterson said he was one of the weakest punchers he ever fought, Cooper said the same.

[Manassa]

6-6.5. A fair puncher. Norton said he could punch ok but Patterson said he was one of the weakest punchers he ever fought, Cooper said the same.

Who would be a 1 or 2 then, if we're talking heavyweights?

[redrooster]

Ali was a shock puncher like Hagler. A good example of the way he jolted his man can be seen in the second Quarry fight, Ron Lyle, and Wepner.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Who would be a 1 or 2 then, if we're talking heavyweights?



Dunno. Is anybody a '1 or 2'? Richard Dunn perhaps? :D

[My dinner with Conteh]

Rudi Lubbers must be low. Marvis Frazier has to be around the 3 or 4's too.

[Robbi]

Louis, Tyson, Shavers, and Foreman. All around 9.0/9.50.

[JohnThomas1]

Dunno. Is anybody a '1 or 2'? Richard Dunn perhaps? :D

Barbados Joe, Harry Greb etc

:lol:

[Duodenum]

Who would be a 1 or 2 then, if we're talking heavyweights?You know, having brought that question up, few heavyweight pairings could have produced a greater differential in punching power than Shavers/Young, Shavers/Caldwell, Young/Foreman, Cooney/Young, Young/Lyle, Foreman/Caldwell and Lyle Caldwell. Loughran/Baer also comes to mind.

Among those who have competed in heavyweight championship fights, I put Shavers at the absolute top of the list, and Loughran at the bottom with Zanon and Young (plus a few challengers of Louis and Charles, like Farr, Natie Brown and Freddie Beshore).

[Drew101]

You know, having brought that question up, few heavyweight pairings could have produced a greater differential in punching power than Shavers/Young, Shavers/Caldwell, Young/Foreman, Cooney/Young, Young/Lyle, Foreman/Caldwell and Lyle Caldwell. Loughran/Baer also comes to mind.

Among those who have competed in heavyweight championship fights, I put Shavers at the absolute top of the list, and Loughran at the bottom with Zanon and Young (plus a few challengers of Louis and Charles, like Farr, Natie Brown and Freddie Beshore).

LaStarza probably could be included in that list, too.

[Robbi]

The thing is Stone, myself and others factor in the various intangibles here, some that are extreme and way out of the norm, to gain a suitably realistic (in our opinion) take on the matter. You, for whatever reason (non comprehension, extreme view, hard view on supposed weakness etc i don't know) don't.

And I don't factor in various intangibles?. I sure do, however those factors which you put together to gain a realistic take on the matter out-weigh mines to an absturd degree.

JT, If you actually read it again. Im not saying your more realistic than myself when it comes to weighing everything up. Im just saying all your factors put together. Humidity, exhaustion, tormented, etc, are taken much heavier into account than you than with me. I take them into account, but much lighter. Hence why I said "outweigh mines".

Just thought Id clear that up, because it looks like Im agreeing with you.

[Duodenum]

LaStarza probably could be included in that list, too.I very nearly included him, but figured I already accumulated enough striking contrasts.

[JohnThomas1]

Duran is completely ridiculous.

Even the shot by Barkley that sent his head spinning like "The Exorcist" was minimized. Remember that shot? It was round 8 I think and Barkley came up in a short pivot with a short left hook that landed flush. And what does Duran say?

"he hit me on my neck and knocked me off balance"

The fact is, his eyes rolled around like a loony tune.


For sure mate. Twas a big punch.

[JohnThomas1]

Ossification. Interesting and your suspicion is shared here.

1987+ Foreman was a different fighter with a better chin. He was plenty heavier and his neck was thicker and so served as a better shock absorber. I suspect that it was more than that. Foreman went on sabbatical -literally-and returned a more formidable man. He offered his life to something larger than himself and believed that the power appointed him an instrument. He became a man with a destiny -personal and spiritual. He was taken the shots -period. And so he did. Old Foreman is scary in that sense. I got the feeling when watching his bouts against Alex Stewart and Moorer that here was a man who was prepared to die.

Holyfield is an example of the good and the bad of such a mindset. For other examples in history, see John Brown and the major slave rebels like Nat Turner and Gabriel. See Oliver Cromwell.

Anyway, a large % of the steel in chins is determination and will and the belief that it cannot be dented. "I think, therefore I am" said Descartes. And it applies in the naked ring more than most places.

That's some great stuff.

[JohnThomas1]

however those factors which you put together to gain a realistic take on the matter out-weigh mines to an absturd degree.


I couldn't agree more

:yep

[Robbi]

I couldn't agree more

:yep

Glad you agree mate.

[Robbi]

And I don't factor in various intangibles?. I sure do, however those factors which you put together to gain a realistic take on the matter out-weigh mines to an absturd degree.

JT, If you actually read it again. Im not saying your more realistic than myself when it comes to weighing everything up. Im just saying all your factors put together. Humidity, exhaustion, tormented, etc, are taken much heavier into account than you than with me. I take them into account, but much lighter. Hence why I said "outweigh mines".

Just thought Id clear that up, because it looks like Im agreeing with you.

[JohnThomas1]

JT, If you actually read it again. Im not saying your more realistic than myself when it comes to weighing everything up. Im just saying all your factors put together. Humidity, exhaustion, tormented, etc, are taken much heavier into account than you than with me. I take them into account, but much lighter. Hence why I said "outweigh mines".

Just thought Id clear that up, because it looks like Im agreeing with you.

You keep stating the obvious dude, relax :good

[Robbi]

You keep stating the obvious dude, relax :good

No worries mate. We'll call it a day on that one, Im sure you couldn't agree more. I shouldn't have opened the door on it again.

I'll slam it shut now.

[Duodenum]

I suspect that it was more than that. Foreman went on sabbatical -literally-and returned a more formidable man. He offered his life to something larger than himself and believed that the power appointed him an instrument. He became a man with a destiny -personal and spiritual. He was taken the shots -period. And so he did. Old Foreman is scary in that sense. I got the feeling when watching his bouts against Alex Stewart and Moorer that here was a man who was prepared to die.Many of the greats have indeed been prepared to do this. Barney Ross is a tremendous example of somebody who demonstrated the true nature of his heart and conviction after his retirement, with his death defying conduct at Guadalcanal. The peak Joe Louis himself might not have been able to take out the edition of Ross who retired Billy Petrolle, weight and power advantage be damned. If bullets and a subsequent morphine addiction couldn't stop Barney, how the hell could anybody's gloved fist manage to do it?Holyfield is an example of the good and the bad of such a mindset. For other examples in history, see John Brown and the major slave rebels like Nat Turner and Gabriel. See Oliver Cromwell.Or read Eric Hoffer's, "The True Believer," for an examination of this as a collective phenomenon.
("We'll win, because God's on our side."-By you-know-who.)Anyway, a large % of the steel in chins is determination and will and the belief that it cannot be dented. "I think, therefore I am" said Descartes. And it applies in the naked ring more than most places.And adrenaline can play an additional role, as Pryor demonstrated against Arguello. LaMotta has described putting himself into a state of self-hypnosis, mentally convincing himself that he was genuinely impervious. Tex Cobb may also have done this.

Interestingly enough, in a brain scan study of numerous veteran boxers, Cobb was the only one whose brain proved to be completely undamaged among the competitors who were tested. They expected to be hit, and seemed to enjoy startling their attackers at their lack of a response to getting nailed. Duran also seemed to enjoy getting hit, and by never flinching from oncoming punches, he was able to identify when they were heading his way, which actually enhanced his ability to avoid them in order to deliver effective counters. The best motivation for slipping a punch is to be better able to deliver one of your own, rather than strictly to evade punishment yourself. (It's kind of hard to counter effectively with a glove in your face.)

My preference when wearing the gloves myself is to take on the hardest puncher available, and getting a kick out of having them freak out when their best shot doesn't affect me. (I've never seen stars when punched. It seems that blows just glance off me, although videotape viewed later makes them look like hellacious shots. Maybe the intense concentration of the moment makes me oblivious to them. I feel pressure sometimes, but no pain. Yet my sense of touch is very sensitive, and I can't tolerate things like itchy clothing.) Well-coordinated speedsters drive me nuts, until they've worn down a bit with their mounting exertion. I suppose many of us on ESB has been in a fight where somebody much bigger and stronger than we are was slamming our heads against a concrete wall without us reacting to that impact in any way. Once adrenaline, and the body's cortisone production kicks in, we'd pretty much have to be killed to be stopped. (And even then, a roused chicken can continue running around with it's head chopped off.)

Ali was not in his "right" mind against Foreman, as demonstrated by his megalomaniacal post fight interview behaviour. He had entered an intransient state of grandiose psychosis, detached from the reality of the punches he was getting hit with. (In lay terms, Muhammad had gone mental.)

[Stonehands89]

Many of the greats have indeed been prepared to do this. Barney Ross is a tremendous example of somebody who demonstrated the true nature of his heart and conviction after his retirement, with his death defying conduct at Guadalcanal. The peak Joe Louis himself might not have been able to take out the edition of Ross who retired Billy Petrolle, weight and power advantage be damned. If bullets and a subsequent morphine addiction couldn't stop Barney, how the hell could anybody's gloved fist manage to do it?Or read Eric Hoffer's, "The True Believer," for an examination of this as a collective phenomenon.
("We'll win, because God's on our side."-By you-know-who.)And adrenaline can play an additional role, as Pryor demonstrated against Arguello. LaMotta has described putting himself into a state of self-hypnosis, mentally convincing himself that he was genuinely impervious. Tex Cobb may also have done this.

Interestingly enough, in a brain scan study of numerous veteran boxers, Cobb was the only one whose brain proved to be completely undamaged among the competitors who were tested. They expected to be hit, and seemed to enjoy startling their attackers at their lack of a response to getting nailed. Duran also seemed to enjoy getting hit, and by never flinching from oncoming punches, he was able to identify when they were heading his way, which actually enhanced his ability to avoid them in order to deliver effective counters. The best motivation for slipping a punch is to be better able to deliver one of your own, rather than strictly to evade punishment yourself. (It's kind of hard to counter effectively with a glove in your face.)

My preference when wearing the gloves myself is to take on the hardest puncher available, and getting a kick out of having them freak out when their best shot doesn't affect me. (I've never seen stars when punched. It seems that blows just glance off me, although videotape viewed later makes them look like hellacious shots. Maybe the intense concentration of the moment makes me oblivious to them. I feel pressure sometimes, but no pain. Yet my sense of touch is very sensitive, and I can't tolerate things like itchy clothing.) Well-coordinated speedsters drive me nuts, until they've worn down a bit with their mounting exertion. I suppose many of us on ESB has been in a fight where somebody much bigger and stronger than we are was slamming our heads against a concrete wall without us reacting to that impact in any way. Once adrenaline, and the body's cortisone production kicks in, we'd pretty much have to be killed to be stopped. (And even then, a roused chicken can continue running around with it's head chopped off.)

Ali was not in his "right" mind against Foreman, as demonstrated by his megalomaniacal post fight interview behaviour. He had entered an intransient state of grandiose psychosis, detached from the reality of the punches he was getting hit with. (In lay terms, Muhammad had gone mental.)

--a work of art.

[Stonehands89]

Many of the greats have indeed been prepared to do this. Barney Ross is a tremendous example of somebody who demonstrated the true nature of his heart and conviction after his retirement, with his death defying conduct at Guadalcanal. The peak Joe Louis himself might not have been able to take out the edition of Ross who retired Billy Petrolle, weight and power advantage be damned. If bullets and a subsequent morphine addiction couldn't stop Barney, how the hell could anybody's gloved fist manage to do it?
I've read Douglas Century's "Barney Ross" and went away with a whole new appreciation for the man. He's like the Anti-Lamotta. Arguello was also a pretty heroic character, fighting in the trenches with the Nicarguan contra's against the communist Sandinista's, after first waving the latter's flag. Perhaps it was the communists who was Panama Lewis's supplier in Pryor-Arguello's first war. Ha.

Or read Eric Hoffer's, "The True Believer," for an examination of this as a collective phenomenon.
("We'll win, because God's on our side."-By you-know-who.)And adrenaline can play an additional role, as Pryor demonstrated against Arguello. LaMotta has described putting himself into a state of self-hypnosis, mentally convincing himself that he was genuinely impervious. Tex Cobb may also have done this.
Lamotta: "I'm dah boss, I'm dah boss, I'm dah boss."
I don't trust Pryor's adrenaline, because I don't trust his corner. For me, that mixed bottle casts suspicion over his whole career. Come to think of it, I remember fighting guys all coked-up or whatever way back in my street fighting days. They fought.... just-like-Pryor.

In any event, force of will is a determining factor. If a man believes that he is destined by God to triumph, that is an awefully hard man to defeat.

Interestingly enough, in a brain scan study of numerous veteran boxers, Cobb was the only one whose brain proved to be completely undamaged among the competitors who were tested. They expected to be hit, and seemed to enjoy startling their attackers at their lack of a response to getting nailed. Duran also seemed to enjoy getting hit, and by never flinching from oncoming punches, he was able to identify when they were heading his way, which actually enhanced his ability to avoid them in order to deliver effective counters. The best motivation for slipping a punch is to be better able to deliver one of your own, rather than strictly to evade punishment yourself. (It's kind of hard to counter effectively with a glove in your face.)
Cobb and Duran are also two men who I believe science will someday (soon?) prove do not have the requisite gene that makes one more susceptible to pugilistica dementia. Cobb more so. Duran rolled with 98% of the shots, just enough to not get hurt very often. Although in his forties it really got scary. I have his winning effort against Castro and -oh my God- did he get nailed. Repeatedly. But he still talks a mile a minute. Maybe it's all gibberish and the Hispanics are engaged in a mass cover-up on behalf of their great hero!

You are correct, though, Duran was a defensive master in my opinion (because he was studious under Freddie Brown) but really didn't care about getting hit by fellow lighweights. He'd psyche them out by grinning at their best shot.

My preference when wearing the gloves myself is to take on the hardest puncher available, and getting a kick out of having them freak out when their best shot doesn't affect me. (I've never seen stars when punched. It seems that blows just glance off me, although videotape viewed later makes them look like hellacious shots. Maybe the intense concentration of the moment makes me oblivious to them. I feel pressure sometimes, but no pain. Yet my sense of touch is very sensitive, and I can't tolerate things like itchy clothing.) Well-coordinated speedsters drive me nuts, until they've worn down a bit with their mounting exertion.
No stars? That is unusual. You may have the requisite jaw-bone structure, neck as shock absorber, or extra thick cranium that allows that. I saw stars alright... and that is exactly why I mastered the jab and became a defensive technician (in close, no running here).

If you find that your sense of touch is hyper-sensitive, that may well mean that you're mind's eye is indiscernably causing your head to move just enough. I have the same thing there. I am also acutely aware in the ring. I can slip and roll with ease and can predict what's coming. Even now, I can hold a bean bag in the palm of my hand and no 18 year old athlete can take it out -even when it is 6 inches in front of their hand. And I never miss taking it out of there hand -at arm's length.

I would guess that you are built differently than me. My body is build for speed, then power. Similar to McCallum's frame. You are thicker (?) I'm guessing this because if you are not moving reflexively enough to evade a shot, but are still not seeing stars, it may mean that although you are taking the shot, you are reacting with imperceptive rolls that prevent any damage.

Ali was not in his "right" mind against Foreman, as demonstrated by his megalomaniacal post fight interview behaviour. He had entered an intransient state of grandiose psychosis, detached from the reality of the punches he was getting hit with. (In lay terms, Muhammad had gone mental.)
Haha! In fact, when both Foreman and Ali were in center ring for the instructions, Ali's lips can be seen moving on film and his eyes are all ablaze. Do you know what he was saying? It was something like "you idolized me as a child and now you must fight me..." all kinds of inflated verbolisms like that.

Frazier swore that in Madison Square Garden, Ali was throwing shots while saying: "don't ...you...know...I'm... God!" Ali denied it completely, but perhaps it was because he was having a temporary bout with insanity.

Joe reports that when Ali said this, Joe replied "Well, God, you gonna lose TONIGHT!" --and kept on hooking at those ribs

[hobgoblin]

Larry also said Shavers, Norton and Cooney would have beaten peak Tyson so i'll not stake everything on his words. It's funny, you are debating pro Ali power against me yet i rate his power better than you i think. I'd feel quite comfortable giving him a 7.5, Holyfield an 8 or 8.5. By seeing Holyfield as the harder hitter i am not slighting Ali. His unbelievable speed give him great punch velocity added to the fact many simply did not see some of his punches, which definitely adds to the stoppage potential. Holyfield hit heavy tho most every punch.

I gave Ali two power ratings. First, what raw power is he CAPABLE of generating? Probably a 6.5. Second, typically, what power does he ACTUALLY generate or USE? Probably a 5 due to his style where he never plants his feet and is always moving around. I'm sure you're aware of the difference of what I'm saying. So in actual potential, I rate his power higher than you.

A note on numbers like 9.5, 6.5, etc. None of us have a truly, uniform, precise scale of 1-10. Numbers provided are typically hunches or just something to give an idea of what we're subjectively thinking. For example, even if I think Shavers hits harder than Mike Tyson (never mind this debate), I still give them both 10s. The 10 is just to give an idea as we don't have a precise scale. Ali is a 6.5. Someone like Chris Byrd is a 3. It's tough to put a heavyweight with a score of 1 or 2 (who normalizes this stuff - too much of a task). These numbers are VERY SLOPPY!

I know Holmes says some ridiculous stuff. Maybe he's crazy. But just the fact that he didn't say Ali hit much harder than Holy makes me think he was being honest. He'd could have been dishonest to downgrade his conqueror but he didn't. Btw prime for prime Holy vs Holmes, I'd pick Holmes by a hair.

[JohnThomas1]

I gave Ali two power ratings. First, what raw power is he CAPABLE of generating? Probably a 6.5. Second, typically, what power does he ACTUALLY generate or USE? Probably a 5 due to his style where he never plants his feet and is always moving around. I'm sure you're aware of the difference of what I'm saying. So in actual potential, I rate his power higher than you.


I gave Ali a 7.5 i thought :huh

Know what ya mean about the numbers being difficult, and i think i agree with Holmes over Holy by a hair too

:good

[Duodenum]

I don't trust Pryor's adrenaline, because I don't trust his corner. For me, that mixed bottle casts suspicion over his whole career. Come to think of it, I remember fighting guys all coked-up or whatever way back in my street fighting days. They fought.... just-like-Pryor.Sure, perhaps Panama Lewis had mixed something like PCP in that bottle, but perhaps Pryor also had a freakishly low heart rate and larger heart than normal, like his idol and friend Armstrong (who was present at the weigh-in for Pryor/Arguello I).In any event, force of will is a determining factor. If a man believes that he is destined by God to triumph, that is an awefully hard man to defeat.And in cases where both competitors have that conviction, then it's often the one who applies more of such force of will in training who prevails, rather than simply during competition.Cobb and Duran are also two men who I believe science will someday (soon?) prove do not have the requisite gene that makes one more susceptible to pugilistica dementia. Cobb more so. Duran rolled with 98% of the shots, just enough to not get hurt very often. Although in his forties it really got scary. I have his winning effort against Castro and -oh my God- did he get nailed. Repeatedly. But he still talks a mile a minute. Maybe it's all gibberish and the Hispanics are engaged in a mass cover-up on behalf of their great hero!And of course this is the well-known theory which James Quarry subscribes to. There may be some merit to the notion, but it also remains a fact that the Quarry boys began taking countless punches to the head as pubescent boys (as did Benitez and Ali), both in sparring and competition. Duran made his professional debut against Carlos Mendoza when he was nearly seventeen, and he was originally a super aggressive offensive dynamo, thus avoiding significant punishment through his formative years in boxing.You are correct, though, Duran was a defensive master in my opinion (because he was studious under Freddie Brown) but really didn't care about getting hit by fellow lighweights. He'd psyche them out by grinning at their best shot.

No stars? That is unusual. You may have the requisite jaw-bone structure, neck as shock absorber, or extra thick cranium that allows that. I saw stars alright... and that is exactly why I mastered the jab and became a defensive technician (in close, no running here).I have been whacked on the head by harder objects than a human fist, so I have had the experience of phosphenes flaring up and obscuring my vision when I've been robbed of my senses.

Marvin Hagler had a skull of normal thickness, but the musculature protecting his cranium was revealed by a medical scan to be a full inch thick, where the average depth of this sheath of muscle is reported to be a mere quarter inch.

However, I was rear-ended by a tractor-trailer, in my tiny Mazda pickup truck made of sheet metal with no headrests, over ten years ago, and suffered no kind of injury, including whiplash. So that could lend some credence to the neck as shock absorber theory.

From what my dentist has observed, the requisite jaw-bone structure may also indeed be in place.

Hagler wore a rubberized version of a mouthpiece which some sports researchers developed, that was puported to align the jaw properly. Supposedly, a marathon runner who wore one for the first time shaved a half hour off his previous best time. (The mouthpiece that the runner used was a hinged model covering both the upper and lower teeth, while Hagler's simply fit over his uppers.)If you find that your sense of touch is hyper-sensitive, that may well mean that you're mind's eye is indiscernably causing your head to move just enough.Which is precisely what Jake LaMotta described himself as doing when recounting the Valentine's Day Massacre with Curt Gowdy, Don Dunphy and SRR in, "The Way it Was" back in March, 1976. (Available on youtube.)I have the same thing there. I am also acutely aware in the ring. I can slip and roll with ease and can predict what's coming. Even now, I can hold a bean bag in the palm of my hand and no 18 year old athlete can take it out -even when it is 6 inches in front of their hand. And I never miss taking it out of there hand -at arm's length.I have been long-since been diagnosed with what is currently termed Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (originally labeled hyperkinesia when I was first evaluated), and hypervigilance is a hallmark of this particular state. So there is some cause for supposing this.I would guess that you are built differently than me. My body is build for speed, then power. Similar to McCallum's frame. You are thicker (?) I'm guessing this because if you are not moving reflexively enough to evade a shot, but are still not seeing stars, it may mean that although you are taking the shot, you are reacting with imperceptive rolls that prevent any damage.In condition, I'm around 135 to 140 pounds at a little under 5'10, with a waist that can be as small as 27 inches. (Thanks to some medical problems I'm just now starting to recover from, my weight has recently ballooned up by around 125 pounds plus. So at this instant, I am indeed much thicker than normal, sort of like Jerry Lewis during his Muscular Dystrophy Telethon a couple of years ago.) Although slow, I'm also much stronger than I look, and others have told people I know that I don't look like somebody they'd want to mess with. But while slow, I can also see things unfolding in slow motion sometimes, and the more I am able to slow this perception of time, the better able I am to respond as needed.Haha! In fact, when both Foreman and Ali were in center ring for the instructions, Ali's lips can be seen moving on film and his eyes are all ablaze. Do you know what he was saying? It was something like "you idolized me as a child and now you must fight me..." all kinds of inflated verbolisms like that.In his ghostwritten 1975 autobiography, he was quoted as saying, "You've been hearing about me since you were a little kid with mess in your pants!" (Unfortunately, this hastily thrown together tabloid also identified Zack Clayton as the same referee who officiated at his rematch with Liston, making one wonder what other misinformation it contains.)Frazier swore that in Madison Square Garden, Ali was throwing shots while saying: "don't ...you...know...I'm... God!" Ali denied it completely, but perhaps it was because he was having a temporary bout with insanity.

Joe reports that when Ali said this, Joe replied "Well, God, you gonna lose TONIGHT!" --and kept on hooking at those ribsYeah, in "Beyond the Glory, Joe does say that he replied back to Ali, "Lord, you're in the wrong place tonight!" I believe Joe, based on Ali's behaviour during his interview with David Frost after knocking Foreman out. The maniacal nature of his euphoric rant after ordering everybody in the room to "Stop talking now!" seems consistent with the grandiose claim Frazier says he made. (As for Ali denying it, he also tried using Thyrolar as a performance enhancing substance for his challenge of Holmes without telling anybody, so I don't exactly consider him a model of honesty.)

[Duodenum]

Larry also said Shavers, Norton and Cooney would have beaten peak Tyson so i'll not stake everything on his words.I realize I'll probably get some flak for this, but I would not place money on the outcome of any of those matches. Tyson did not have the height and reach which Cooney's other conquerers enjoyed, and I don't believe Tyson's power was on a par with Shavers, Cooney or Foreman. Norton's reach and skill might have been sufficient to thwart Tyson's power, especially if Kenny got Mike into the championship rounds. Gerry couldn't take it on the temple, but would Tyson be able to reach that high without getting nailed himself? As chinny as Shavers is supposed to have been, only Lyle and the powerful Ron Stander were able to drop him for the count when Earnie was around his prime, and both had to wear Earnie down to do it.

After Tyson decisioned Mitch Green, many boxing analysts deemed his power to be more comparable to Frazier's than Foreman's, although Tyson carried that power in both hands. Those three matchups could have gone either way in my estimation, although I'd expect Tyson would probably be favored.

[Bill1234]

Yeah it's an interesting one isn't it mate. Holmes threw the consistently heavier blows but Ali has some of the better single blow results in some ways. Ali has some single punch wreckages, but Larry was more of a clubbing puncher if it makes sense as he was still fast as hell. Many stoppages he clubbed the guy to death, Marvis Frazier etc. I'll say one thing, Holmes stopped a lot of people that had never been stopped/and or had good chins thru sheer class, prolonged steady pressure, stamina and will to win. The Weaver stoppage did actuall come at the end of a gruelling bout more than anything else. Holmes blows heavier, Ali's more potentially dangerous i think.

I agree with most. But watch Holmes's rematch with Weaver. He took him out with a hell of a right hand. 1 straight right and Weaver was on queer street and on the floor. Also Larry's single right cross on Curtis Shepard was another great 1 punch KO. But all in all, I'd say Holmes was the more clubbing puncher aside from his jab, and Ali was the more sharp puncher. IMO Larry's uppercut is hard to rate as in if it was a clubbing or jolting. It seemed to do both. It snapped their heads back and jolted them, but it also clubbed them. His right uppercut on Weaver in their first fight was a bute though. Nice post.:good

Here's the link to the Holmes-Weaver rematch, couldn't get the embedded clip to work right.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bill1234]

Larry also said Shavers, Norton and Cooney would have beaten peak Tyson so i'll not stake everything on his words.

Touche.

[JohnThomas1]

I realize I'll probably get some flak for this, but I would not place money on the outcome of any of those matches. Tyson did not have the height and reach which Cooney's other conquerers enjoyed, and I don't believe Tyson's power was on a par with Shavers, Cooney or Foreman. Norton's reach and skill might have been sufficient to thwart Tyson's power, especially if Kenny got Mike into the championship rounds. Gerry couldn't take it on the temple, but would Tyson be able to reach that high without getting nailed himself? As chinny as Shavers is supposed to have been, only Lyle and the powerful Ron Stander were able to drop him for the count when Earnie was around his prime, and both had to wear Earnie down to do it.

After Tyson decisioned Mitch Green, many boxing analysts deemed his power to be more comparable to Frazier's than Foreman's, although Tyson carried that power in both hands. Those three matchups could have gone either way in my estimation, although I'd expect Tyson would probably be favored.

Duuuuuuude. I'm not even going to fully take this on, but it's pretty funny you wouldn't put money on peak Tyson vs Shavers, Norton and Cooney of all people. Tomato can matchups for Tyson at his best. Shavers and Cooney would be too slow to hit him with breeze let alone leather and neither had much of a chin. Holmes could have stopped the best of Cooney in a couple of rounds but chose the perfectly safe route. We all know what happens to Norton when he faces huge hitting aggressive fighters, Tyson might even beat the Foreman and Shavers KO times. 99% of the time you are totally brilliant, and then some at times, but when it comes to Leonard and Tyson......

[hobgoblin]

To be honest, Mitch Green had a very good chin although I'll admit I've seen only this one fight of his. See his boxrec record (few discrepancies had good excuses to them). This guy took a bare fisted right hand from Mike Tyson that CRATERED his face and yet he was still standing! Now that's one helluva chin.

As for Mike Tyson, I think Shavers hits clearly harder but some (including me) may underrate Tyson's power. He was NOT a clubber or a one punch guy in his prime like Shavers was. Tyson actually had skills. He had speed. He preferered to catch his opponents with 2 or 3 fast / snappy punches rather than one single bomb. This way, he didn't use ALL the power he was capable of generating IMO. When he abandoned that approach after post prison, he paid for it with Holy but you also got to see what his full power could do against Botha. One right hand. This is how I see Tyson's power - it isn't entirely simple (not rocket science either) but no offense to writers here (some are great) - boxing writers are not scholarly scientists - they just write about a sport to make a living. I always find the term "boxing analyst / expert" somewhat of an oxymoron. I'll tell you why. Bert Sugar, based on one single fight, picked Buster Douglas over Evander Holyfield. :patsch:

Sorry I got off topic, never mind.

[Duodenum]

I always find the term "boxing analyst / expert" somewhat of an oxymoron. I'll tell you why. Bert Sugar, based on one single fight, picked Buster Douglas over Evander Holyfield. :patsch:

Sorry I got off topic, never mind.You're absolutely right. The true expert analysts are those who have the best track record at actually predicting outcomes most accurately. I have no ability in that area myself, and won't claim such expertise unless I somehow evolve a sense of objectivity someday, when I finally grow up.

[Duodenum]

99% of the time you are totally brilliant, and then some at times, but when it comes to Leonard and Tyson......That's actually kind of scary JT, since I rely on you to be my harshest critic when ChrisPontius isn't attacking one of my posts. (If he ever starts calling me brilliant, I'm checking into the local sanitarium.) 99% percent of the time, JT? C'mon!:nono (By the way, which Leonard are you referring to, Benny or Ray?)

[ChrisPontius]

To be honest, Mitch Green had a very good chin although I'll admit I've seen only this one fight of his. See his boxrec record (few discrepancies had good excuses to them). This guy took a bare fisted right hand from Mike Tyson that CRATERED his face and yet he was still standing! Now that's one helluva chin.

As for Mike Tyson, I think Shavers hits clearly harder but some (including me) may underrate Tyson's power. He was NOT a clubber or a one punch guy in his prime like Shavers was. Tyson actually had skills. He had speed. He preferered to catch his opponents with 2 or 3 fast / snappy punches rather than one single bomb. This way, he didn't use ALL the power he was capable of generating IMO. When he abandoned that approach after post prison, he paid for it with Holy but you also got to see what his full power could do against Botha. One right hand. This is how I see Tyson's power - it isn't entirely simple (not rocket science either) but no offense to writers here (some are great) - boxing writers are not scholarly scientists - they just write about a sport to make a living. I always find the term "boxing analyst / expert" somewhat of an oxymoron. I'll tell you why. Bert Sugar, based on one single fight, picked Buster Douglas over Evander Holyfield. :patsch:

Sorry I got off topic, never mind.

I agree, although i will make 2 comments:

1. Even if Tyson had great speed, combinations etc, that doesn't disqualify him from being a one-punch knockout guy. In fact he has more one-punch knockouts than Shavers despite being a far superior combination puncher, that should tell you something

2. I don't think more of Bert Sugar as a historian than the average poster on here, but picking Douglas over Holyfield, i can't blame him that much.

You have to bear in mind:

-Holyfield was not seen as a "legit" heavyweight yet. Going into the Thomas fight, Thomas was said to have the better jab, the true heavyweight etc. After it, it was clear he was washed up and all that. In hindsight we know that Holyfield was a great heavyweight as well, back then not many people expected him to be. He was not seen as a threat at all to Tyson (he was going to fight him after Douglas).

-Douglas looked absolutely great. Who would've thought he lost his motivation THAT quickly? He may well have been like Mike Weaver in the sense that he bottled some fights early but learnt from it and became a better fighter despite a spotty record.

[JohnThomas1]

That's actually kind of scary JT, since I rely on you to be my harshest critic when ChrisPontius isn't attacking one of my posts. (If he ever starts calling me brilliant, I'm checking into the local sanitarium.) 99% percent of the time, JT? C'mon!:nono (By the way, which Leonard are you referring to, Benny or Ray?)

99% wouldn't be far from it mate hahaha. We'll call it 90 then.

Benny or Ray, who's Benny Leonard?

:D

[JIm Broughton]

Althought he certainly was'nt a power puncher, I think Ali was underareted as a puncher. One fight that illustrates this I feel is the Lyle fight. Ali did nothing but let Lyle pound on him for something like 10 rounds while occcasionally countering. The next round Ali cracked Lyle with a fast right hand that sent him staggering back into the ropes. From there Ali finished him with a combination. One right hand effectively ended that fight. A powderpuff puncher could'nt do that against Lyle so I think that shows that Ali could punch with some authority at times but usually he was content to outbox his opponent. The fact that he had bad hands later in his comeback years probably led to his holding back and not putting his all into his punches. At any rate I would say that Ali was an underated puncher. Someone with his size and speed has to be able to put some pop on his punches sometimes.

[Bokaj]

At any rate I would say that Ali was an underated puncher. Someone with his size and speed has to be able to put some pop on his punches sometimes.

Yes, that is, as they say, the heart of the matter. I really can't believe that people continue with the myth that Ali was a light puncher. The power of a punch is determined by two things: the speed of the punch and the weight behind it. Nothing else.

With that in mind, a 215 pound fighter with Ali's handspeed have to hit hard when he puts his body behind the punch. That's just no way around that.

One of the main differences between Ali and famous punchers like Foreman and Tyson is that they always put everything they had in every punch, and that's always a gamble. If you keep missing you gonna tire quickly, which is what Foreman did against Ali.

Ali only put full power in his punches when he saw a clear opening. When this happened the result was often devastating, as Williams, Foley, Bonavena, Foreman and Lyle can testify. The last two of these fighters had never been stopped, not even knocked down, before they met Ali. And Bonavena also had an iron chin, but was felled by one of the best left hooks I ever saw.

[C. M. Clay II]

Ali had IMO good power. A 70% KO ratio in your prime is nothing to sneeze about.

[Manassa]

Ali had IMO good power. A 70% KO ratio in your prime is nothing to sneeze about.

Are percentages all that matter? I think not.