Is ali the only boxer in history to be great while losing his biggest asset

[quintonjacksonfan]

In the 60's his biggest strength was his legs. When he came back in

the 70's he only got up on his toes for spurts and he was not nearly as fast

How do you lose your biggest asset and still defeat Foreman,Fraizer,

Lyle,Foster,Patterson, Shavers, Young,Quarry,Chuvalo,Jimmy Ellis,Norton,Bonavena?

That's why I think he is the greatest boxer ever. When RJJ and SRL

lost their legs they started to get knocked down and out by average

fighters. When SRR lost some of his legs he was inconsistent

for every great fighter he beat he also lost to them. IF PBF continues

to fight when his legs are not their he will lose to average fighters too

My question what other fighters have been able to beat the best while

losing their biggest strength?

[McGrain]

It's an interesting thing to say - but I would dispute that Ali lost his greatest attribute. Having said that, we never would have known about his greatest attributes (heart, incredible durabilty, chin and smarts) if he hadn't lost his foot-speed - I think it's a fair point, therefore.

[Bill1234]

No. Larry lost his jab's speed (it was still great nun the less). He also lost his footwork too. So he just sort of danced or moved around in spurts too. He beat Ray Mercer by counter punching and slugging it with him.

[groove]

No other heavyweight has ever moved around the ring like Ali did in the 60s. He was so graceful and light on his feet - it was astonishing to see for a man who weighed over 200 pounds. Ali lost his main asset but he also had other great assets aswell - speed, intelligence, adaptability, will power etc. Good post.

[McGrain]

No. Larry lost his jab's speed (it was still great nun the less). He also lost his footwork too. So he just sort of danced or moved around in spurts too. He beat Ray Mercer by counter punching and slugging it with him.


But Ali's achievments post-loss are enough to label him an ATG without supplemental brownie points for pre-loss. Can the same be said of Holmes?

[AREA 53]

Ali Had so much Speed to begin with that in losing some, his 70's incarnation was still Very fast when he wished to turn it on, see his pre and post fights with Chuvalo for some sleight comparison, one must bare in also that a younger Ali was fighting guys like Cooper, London, Williams, Folly, and the Older Ali had to Cross swords with Younger faster fighters like Frazier, Bugner, Quarry, Norton, ect Ali may of lost some speed but maturity probably made him stronger, A Ring General who knew how to marshall his changing forces,

[Bill1234]

But Ali's achievments post-loss are enough to label him an ATG without supplemental brownie points for pre-loss. Can the same be said of Holmes?


Yes. Not as much, but still yes.

[mr. magoo]

No. Larry lost his jab's speed (it was still great nun the less). He also lost his footwork too. So he just sort of danced or moved around in spurts too. He beat Ray Mercer by counter punching and slugging it with him.

I don't seem to recall Holmes " slugging " with Mercer. Although it's been 15 years since I've seen the fight. The only real exchange that remotely resembled slugging in that fight, occurred in the first round, and sent Holmes reeling. After that, Larry utilized the jab, and took full advantage of his reach and speed against Ray, who even being 10 years younger, was noticably slower than his veteran opponent.

[Bill1234]

I don't seem to recall Holmes " slugging " with Mercer. Although it's been 15 years since I've seen the fight. The only real exchange that remotely resembled slugging in that fight, occurred in the first round, and sent Holmes reeling. After that, Larry utilized the jab, and took full advantage of his reach and speed against Ray, who even being 10 years younger, was noticably slower than his veteran opponent.

The full fight is on youtube. Larry was slugging with Mercer in a couple of rounds. He was also counter punching. In the first round Mercer caught Holmes with a great jab right on the chin while Holmes was backing up, and it sent Holmes reeling. That wasn't an exchange.

Here is part 1, you can find the rest.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mr. magoo]

The full fight is on youtube. Larry was slugging with Mercer in a couple of rounds. He was also counter punching. In the first round Mercer caught Holmes with a great jab right on the chin while Holmes was backing up, and it sent Holmes reeling. That wasn't an exchange.

Here is part 1, you can find the rest.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


Okay,

Well a couple of rounds maybe, but that's not what I remember happening for MOST of the fight.

[McGrain]

Yes. Not as much, but still yes.


List the fighters that Holmes beat with his weakend jab that condone your view. Thanks for posting that video, I enjoyed watching that.

[Duodenum]

An awful lot of champions who became renowned as skillful and stylish boxers started out as huge punchers whose hands couldn't withstand the force of repeated hard impact. Tommy Lougran may be the outstanding example of this, although Jimmy McLarnin also had a distinguised career.

Some would argue that the foremost asset of Bobby Chacon during his original rise to prominence was his legs. He was no cutie though, by the time he had his last title run, and Schoolboy closed out the last few years after the Mancini bout as a winner (retiring Art Frias in the process).

El Flaco Explosivo had been a slip and counter boxer-puncher, but towards the end of his career, he devolved into a get hit and counter type. Still, he got the job done more often than not.

To become a champion, and remain one through a year of title defenses, Hilmer Kenty lost his stick and move style by choice, to become an aggressive stalker, an elective loss which served him well while at the top.

Many fighters have adapted to the loss of size and strength advantages they enjoyed in their original weight classes. Duran has to be the classic example of this.

George Foreman evolved so completely over 20 years that I count him as two different incarnations.

There are other examples too numerous to mention, but I'm sure the others on this forum can identify plenty of them.

[China_hand_Joe]

Joe Calzaghe was known as a stoppage specialist going into his fight with Robin Reid, with a ridiculously high stoppage % and had just scored a KD over Eubank in round one.

From there on though Joe's hand became increasingly brittle and problematic.

Unlike Ali however, despite losing his ability to continue doing what he best known for, actually improved as a fighter. Joe became a masterful boxer and developed a somewhat unique style, which he demonstrated perfectly against Jeff Lacy in 2006.

[unitas]

Joe Calzaghe was known as a stoppage specialist going into his fight with Robin Reid, with a ridiculously high stoppage % and had just scored a KD over Eubank in round one.

From there on though Joe's hand became increasingly brittle and problematic.

Unlike Ali however, despite losing his ability to continue doing what he best known for, actually improved as a fighter. Joe became a masterful boxer and developed a somewhat unique style, which he demonstrated perfectly against Jeff Lacy in 2006.


did you just call calzaghe a great fighter?????????:yikes

[achillesthegreat]

Good point but not really. Louis lost his spark but still got great wins like Walcott 2!

I would say that Ali and Louis are two guys who lost a major element in their game but generally still reigned king. Great fighters could do it. Like Holmes, he lowered his punchoutput, maintained his workrate, paced himself, stuck with the jab etc He wasn't 40 thinking he was 20. Hopkins is the latest to do it. He is 42 and fights like he is. Hopkins didn't quite pull it out against Taylor whereas I think Ali and Louis in dire moments pulled out a few.

[JIm Broughton]

Ali did'nt completely lose his legs and even if he was'nt idle for those 3years there's no way he could've continued dancing around the ring for 15 rounds for too much longer anyway. As he got older and heavier his ability to dance around like he did in his early 20's would have diminished some naturally even without the enforced layoff. Ali would have realized this and would have called on some of his other considerable skills as he eventually did to find a way to win. Plus as Ali got older and heavier(not fatter) he was able to put more weight behind his punches instead of all that dancing around, some of which was wasted motion anyway. Ali was'nt a god, he was a mere mortal like the rest of us and susceptible to Father Time. Layoff or not, the Ali of the 70's would not have been able to dance all night against a more modern crop of HW's. He would have been naturally heavier and older as he turned out to be.

[Luigi1985]

C´mon, get real Ali- nuthuggers, who push the propaganda for free, don´t sound like he lost a leg or so...


:patsch

[TBooze]

Greb got great without the use of an eye, other than losing an arm, I cannot think of a bigger handicap for a fighter.

[young griffo]

Langford fought and beat very good opposition while nearly blind,which is surely better than Ali slowing down a bit.

[NickHudson]

Great performance by Holmes in the circumstances.

But lets face it, how does beating one-dimensional, limted, contender-only Ray Mercer stack up to beating quality versions of Joe Frazier and George Foreman?

There is no comparison. This thread nicely reflects Ali's strength i.e. the phenomenal range of qualities all built into one supreme fighter.

Take a major quality away and you are still left with so much.

No. Larry lost his jab's speed (it was still great nun the less). He also lost his footwork too. So he just sort of danced or moved around in spurts too. He beat Ray Mercer by counter punching and slugging it with him.

[Muchmoore]

Yes. Not as much, but still yes.

What Holmes did when he came back and lost speed isn't close to what Ali did and doesn't have anything on his resume that resembles an ATG resume.