Foreman's comments on Ali's power...

[JohnThomas1]

Who were the five hardest punchers you ever faced?

Foreman: Oh, my goodness. I'd have to say, in reverse order:

5. Muhammad Ali. He was deceptive. People say he wasn't a puncher, but he'd get you to come toward him, and he'd catch you with that quick right hand.

4. Jack O'Halloran. It was 1970, in my 15th fight. He'd beaten Manuel Ramos in California, and I fought him in Madison Square Garden. He wobbled me. [Note: Foreman stopped O'Halloran in five rounds.]

3. Sonny Liston. I sparred with him and he was the only guy who ever made me box. I was scared of him!

2. Gerry Cooney. He was one of those guys who, when they hit you, it didn't hurt, but then you saw your body start doing funny things. [Foreman KO'd Cooney in two round in 1990.]

1. Ron Lyle. I have never been hit like that! It should have been illegal for someone to get in the ring and punch somebody like that. That should have been rated X. [Foreman stopped Lyle in five rounds in 1976 in one of the greatest brawls in heavyweight history; both men were on the canvas in the fourth round.]

[Sizzle]

Who were the five hardest punchers you ever faced?

Foreman: Oh, my goodness. I'd have to say, in reverse order:

5. Muhammad Ali. He was deceptive. People say he wasn't a puncher, but he'd get you to come toward him, and he'd catch you with that quick right hand.

4. Jack O'Halloran. It was 1970, in my 15th fight. He'd beaten Manuel Ramos in California, and I fought him in Madison Square Garden. He wobbled me. [Note: Foreman stopped O'Halloran in five rounds.]

3. Sonny Liston. I sparred with him and he was the only guy who ever made me box. I was scared of him!

2. Gerry Cooney. He was one of those guys who, when they hit you, it didn't hurt, but then you saw your body start doing funny things. [Foreman KO'd Cooney in two round in 1990.]

1. Ron Lyle. I have never been hit like that! It should have been illegal for someone to get in the ring and punch somebody like that. That should have been rated X. [Foreman stopped Lyle in five rounds in 1976 in one of the greatest brawls in heavyweight history; both men were on the canvas in the fourth round.]

Interestingly no Holyfield, Briggs, Moorer?

Not noteworthy big hitters I know, but some might claim they punched harder than Ali.

Obviously Foremans opinion is not the be-all end-all though, but a valid indicator certainly. I would certainly have expected Liston to top that list.

[Jbuz]

Interestingly no Holyfield, Briggs, Moorer?

Not noteworthy big hitters I know, but some might claim they punched harder than Ali.

Obviously Foremans opinion is not the be-all end-all though, but a valid indicator certainly. I would certainly have expected Liston to top that list.

He only sparred Liston though, and it was a very old Liston wasn't it?

I'm surpised Frazier wasn't there, though Joe didn't have much time to make an impression.

[hobgoblin]

He only sparred Liston though, and it was a very old Liston wasn't it?

I'm surpised Frazier wasn't there, though Joe didn't have much time to make an impression.

Actually, if you watch Foreman vs Frazier again, you'll see Joe lands over a dozen left hooks in those 12 rounds. That's enough fire power to knock out 3 or 4 average heavyweights. Of course, Foreman's granite chin made it look like nothing and we barely notice what Frazier landed on Foreman because we're too captivated by what Foreman landed on Frazier.

Yep, if Foreman was a teenager (say 18) then this must have been 1967 - Liston would have been ~39 and while trying to teach the kid a lesson - he probably didn't try his hardest as he would against say Cleveland Williams.

[hobgoblin]

Who were the five hardest punchers you ever faced?

Foreman: Oh, my goodness. I'd have to say, in reverse order:

5. Muhammad Ali. He was deceptive. People say he wasn't a puncher, but he'd get you to come toward him, and he'd catch you with that quick right hand.

Yep, I believe this assessment. Ali's power was MOST EFFECTIVELY used in that fight. 100% efficiency. He planted his feet and caught Foreman so fast that Foreman couldn't see the punches coming and they landed so cleanly square on the chin. If Ali was able to generate 6.5 power - he used all of it in that fight whereas in his other fights (esp pre-exile) he didn't utilize his full power.

[Mendoza]

Who were the five hardest punchers you ever faced?

Foreman: Oh, my goodness. I'd have to say, in reverse order:

5. Muhammad Ali. He was deceptive. People say he wasn't a puncher, but he'd get you to come toward him, and he'd catch you with that quick right hand.

4. Jack O'Halloran. It was 1970, in my 15th fight. He'd beaten Manuel Ramos in California, and I fought him in Madison Square Garden. He wobbled me. [Note: Foreman stopped O'Halloran in five rounds.]

3. Sonny Liston. I sparred with him and he was the only guy who ever made me box. I was scared of him!

2. Gerry Cooney. He was one of those guys who, when they hit you, it didn't hurt, but then you saw your body start doing funny things. [Foreman KO'd Cooney in two round in 1990.]

1. Ron Lyle. I have never been hit like that! It should have been illegal for someone to get in the ring and punch somebody like that. That should have been rated X. [Foreman stopped Lyle in five rounds in 1976 in one of the greatest brawls in heavyweight history; both men were on the canvas in the fourth round.]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting. O'Halloran makes the list, but Joe Frazier and Holfyfield do not?

[ChrisPontius]

Foreman did comment on Holyfield's great left hook to the body several times when he was commentating other fights for HBO after his fight with Evander.

[Stonehands89]

Jack O' Halloran played the mute Kryptonian in Superman II.

[young griffo]

Jack O' Halloran played the mute Kryptonian in Superman II.
I thought the one with Richard Pryor in it was the best in the series by far.

[JohnThomas1]

Damn, i don't have an exact date for this list

:fire

[Bummy Davis]

Foreman Got Rocked By Ohalloran But Big George Also Avoided Many Guys Who Could Punch,quarry,bonavena,shavers And Others. I Think Big George Would Have Beaten Most Of Them But He May Have Been Tested, The Young George Was Very Protected

[guilalah]

I liked Foreman's comment about Ali drawing him in. It's not how hard the punch is thrown, it's how hard the punch is landed.

[Duodenum]

Damn, i don't have an exact date for this list

:fireJT, what matters to me is that whenever George offered the opinions you shared, it was after he was hit by Cooney. Thank you very much for sharing this fascinating information. As he was on the receiving end of the hardest punches Ali ever delivered, that number five rating is especially interesting and revealing. Much appreciated!

[Duodenum]

1. Ron Lyle. I have never been hit like that! It should have been illegal for someone to get in the ring and punch somebody like that. That should have been rated X. [Foreman stopped Lyle in five rounds in 1976 in one of the greatest brawls in heavyweight history; both men were on the canvas in the fourth round.]And as Leroy Caldwell said Lyle hit about the same as Foreman, George got a taste of what it was like to be on the receiving end of his own shots.

[RDJ]

I liked Foreman's comment about Ali drawing him in. It's not how hard the punch is thrown, it's how hard the punch is landed.
Street lights have zero punching power, but many get knocked out walking into them.

[JohnBKelly]

Its worth noting that many journeymen like O'Halloran are terrific punchers. Their problem is they just aren't fit enough or fast enough to land cleanly more than once or twice in a fight.

[Bill1234]

I liked Foreman's comment about Ali drawing him in. It's not how hard the punch is thrown, it's how hard the punch is landed.

Yup. I know I was hurt the most by a simple, light, jab that I literally walked into. Aparrently I forgot that when they are holding their hand out...don't walk straight into their glove face first when their arm is extended and stiff.:patsch I never did that again though.:!:

[radianttwilight]

Foreman has said alot of outrageous things though :good

Honestly though, Foreman's problem was never his chin, it was his balance. The man has taken some HUGE shots during his career, and with the exception of the Ali TKO and the Lyle fight he was never really in trouble...

Just because a punch wobbled him doesn't mean it was one of the hardest punches he'd ever taken, especially the young George that often lost his balance :D He may just be recounting the punches with the biggest effect of his career, as opposed to the hardest shots he has ever taken.

I don't think anybody could knock Foreman out with just one punch, especially when he is planted and bracing for it.

[albinored]

..in the first round of the first fight with frazier, smokin' joe hit foreman with one of his solid left hooks. When Foreman went to his corner he said , "THAT'S his hook?"

the comment made here about Foreman's balance making him look wobbly is, I think, a very astute one. And I agree....when he was in good stance form I don't think he could be kayoed, at least not by one punch.

[hobgoblin]

..in the first round of the first fight with frazier, smokin' joe hit foreman with one of his solid left hooks. When Foreman went to his corner he said , "THAT'S his hook?"

can anyone verify this? someone told me that foreman said he was hurt in the frazier fight (foreman is full of shit - good thing ali kicked his ass).

the comment made here about Foreman's balance making him look wobbly is, I think, a very astute one. And I agree....when he was in good stance form I don't think he could be kayoed, at least not by one punch.

how do you explain ron lyle knocking him down? it's debateable if it was one shot - but i wouldn't call it an accumulation either. the kd was not off balance and foreman was hurt.

[JohnThomas1]

JT, what matters to me is that whenever George offered the opinions you shared, it was after he was hit by Cooney. Thank you very much for sharing this fascinating information. As he was on the receiving end of the hardest punches Ali ever delivered, that number five rating is especially interesting and revealing. Much appreciated!

Dude, you supply the entire forum with a multitude of great reading every week, glad you got something back you really enjoyed.

[Marciano Frazier]

Did this really merit its own thread? Seems like it could've just been added to the "Ali's power" topic.

[hobgoblin]

Did this really merit its own thread? Seems like it could've just been added to the "Ali's power" topic.

nah, it deserved its own thread. besides, since when was there any sense of forum modicum around here? :lol: for us to worry about trivial issues.

[Shake]

Great read.

[jyuza]

Who were the five hardest punchers you ever faced?

Foreman: Oh, my goodness. I'd have to say, in reverse order:

5. Muhammad Ali. He was deceptive. People say he wasn't a puncher, but he'd get you to come toward him, and he'd catch you with that quick right hand.

4. Jack O'Halloran. It was 1970, in my 15th fight. He'd beaten Manuel Ramos in California, and I fought him in Madison Square Garden. He wobbled me. [Note: Foreman stopped O'Halloran in five rounds.]

3. Sonny Liston. I sparred with him and he was the only guy who ever made me box. I was scared of him!

2. Gerry Cooney. He was one of those guys who, when they hit you, it didn't hurt, but then you saw your body start doing funny things. [Foreman KO'd Cooney in two round in 1990.]

1. Ron Lyle. I have never been hit like that! It should have been illegal for someone to get in the ring and punch somebody like that. That should have been rated X. [Foreman stopped Lyle in five rounds in 1976 in one of the greatest brawls in heavyweight history; both men were on the canvas in the fourth round.]

Now that was pretty funny from Georges :D

[JohnThomas1]

Did this really merit its own thread? Seems like it could've just been added to the "Ali's power" topic.
I thought about that then decided it did indeed merit it's own thread. The Ali power thread has been going for ages and i feared this might have been lost to some if i merely added it in there. This is also the first time i've seen these comments doing the rounds. Also, this topic is far from just about Ali's punching power tho i headed it that way. It's a topic in itself if i do say so myself.

:good

[fists of fury]

can anyone verify this? someone told me that foreman said he was hurt in the frazier fight (foreman is full of shit - good thing ali kicked his ass).



I have read the same thing in different publications. The story varies a little from time to time, but the overall picture was that Foreman was rather disdainful about Frazier's hook. Looking at the footage, I guess we can see why.

In the Champion's Forever documentary Foreman changed his tune. He said Frazier's hook was like a rifle shot and that he had to get him out of there quickly or suffer a KO himself.
However, I got the impression George here was being nice and did not want to tarnish a legend.

[Bill1234]

George changes his mind every year. One day Lennox Lewis is the greatest heavyweight of all time, the next Ali is. He's a bit of a phony IMO. That smile looks fake to me.

[albinored]

Hobgoblin - Happy Halloween. "Verify" is always a sensible request. Here's how I remember the "left hook?" Foreman response : have to go by memory but one tv commentater shortly after the fight said he heard Foreman say it. The commentater said he was at ringside. i also read it in a magazine that covered it. It may have been Sports Illustrated. Plus, Dick Sadler who was working the corner told a writer the same thing. So, I think Foreman no doubt said it. As for his year's later, the smiling Foreman, saying his legs were shaking when he was waiting for the bell he was so scared...well, by this time he has created a whole new persona. He sure didn't look scared when the fight started!

I saw the fight on live tv and have looked at it many times since, and have it on two different camera angles. On both he is saying to Frazier's corner very clearly, "I'll kill him", his way of warning them they better stop it. On the oter angle it's not quite as clear. the first one is the one I remember from the braodcast.

Yes, as pointed out, big George does have a way of expressing various viewpoints at odds with each other.

As for his being knocked down by Lyle ...indeed he was and when i watched it I thought he was out. But, he got up. Note I did not say he couldn't be knocked DOWN by a single punch (which he was ); i said I didn't think he could be knocked OUT by one.

[Bill1234]

Hobgoblin - Happy Halloween.

Halloween is tommorow. Its on October 31. Tonight is mischief night :hey.

[Jbuz]

What the hell is the point of Halloween? It just seems stupid.

[albinored]

Bill - I guess i should have said Happy Halloween Eve. Actually in the city where I grew up, the 29th was Damage Night ...nothing all that destructive- just soaping windows, turning over garbage cans, etc. The 30th we called Beggar's Night, and the term trick or treat wasn't around then. That's when we went out in costume and got candy. The 31st was Halloween, and if there were parties, and there always were somewhere in the neighborhood, that's the night they were held, and again, we wore costumes.

I suppose I should do something boxing related here, so....what do you think would happen if a guy in a prime Mike Tyson costume rang Bruce Seldon's doorbell and said BOO! when he came to the door?

[hobgoblin]

Hobgoblin - Happy Halloween.

thank you buddy

He sure didn't look scared when the fight started

I can actually believe that he is scared. A very good poster long ago explained to me why. I made the same argument as you. You see the weigh in photos and Foreman just towers over Frazier and looks at him disdainfully. You can look and feel physically superior to someone. Even then, you're a new fighter and you hear of a guy that went 15 grueling rounds with Ali and made Ali's face into a balloon and beat him up. It can be expecteded that a single round with this guys is going to be pure HELL and that he is as bad of a man as you can find. Which was fairly accurate with fighting Frazier. For just about any great save a few (maybe ONLY Foreman?), a night with Frazier is a night in hell getting tortured. Just ask Ali. You see a fight in high school and the smaller guys turns out to be unexpectedly vicious and ferrocious even if the other is bigger and stronger looking. Sort of like a wolverine being so ferocious that it can back up a grizzly bear (true fact). Given Frazier's background and Foreman's lack of experience, regardless of how Foreman felt physically, he didn't really know what he was in for until the fight. Turns out Foreman was a gross exception.

As for his being knocked down by Lyle ...indeed he was and when i watched it I thought he was out. But, he got up. Note I did not say he couldn't be knocked DOWN by a single punch (which he was ); i said I didn't think he could be knocked OUT by one.

Yep, I had noticed and I will agree. Can't KO Foreman with one shot. Just wanted to point out the KD anyway.

Thanks for your interesting anecdote about Foreman's remark on Frazier's left hook. Maybe for granite chinned Foreman it was nothing but even in those 2 rounds, Frazier landed several left hooks total that would have equalled several knockouts.

[RoccoMarciano]

And Foreman is going to say Ali had average power?

Wonder how good of a chin Foreman had?

It should also be remembered Foreman ranked Marciano ahead of Ali by two spots... Just threw that in so the Ali huggers wouldn't get too excited over this thread:)

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Jack Johnson
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Frazier
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Floyd Patterson
10. Evander Holyfield

Honorable Mention:
Max Baer
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott

[Jbuz]

And Foreman is going to say Ali had average power?

Wonder how good of a chin Foreman had?

It should also be remembered Foreman ranked Marciano ahead of Ali by two spots... Just threw that in so the Ali huggers wouldn't get too excited over this thread:)

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Jack Johnson
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Frazier
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Floyd Patterson
10. Evander Holyfield

Honorable Mention:
Max Baer
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott




Wow. That's amazing.

He also has Patterson in the top 10. :roll:

[RoccoMarciano]

Wow. That's amazing.

He also has Patterson in the top 10. :roll:
I don't agree with Holyfield or, perhaps, Tyson being top 10 either... but that's HIS list. I personally think Foreman belongs there, but he chose to exclude himself.

I'd give a shove to Lennox and Holmes belonging in the top 10 as well.

[Duodenum]

And Foreman is going to say Ali had average power?

Wonder how good of a chin Foreman had?

It should also be remembered Foreman ranked Marciano ahead of Ali by two spots... Just threw that in so the Ali huggers wouldn't get too excited over this thread:)

1. Joe Louis
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Jack Johnson
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Joe Frazier
6. Jack Dempsey
7. Mike Tyson
8. Sonny Liston
9. Floyd Patterson
10. Evander Holyfield

Honorable Mention:
Max Baer
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott


George is a lot smarter than he lets on sometimes. If we were to slip him an injection of sodium pentathol, it would be real interesting to see how this list changes. Despite himself, his genuine opinions slip out from time to time, and they are informative flashes of insight.

Marciano gets something of a free ride for 49-0. (As Ali does for his ring smarts, where his heart and toughness deserves credit instead,) What would that rating be if Rocky hadn't decked LaStarza in their first meeting? (LaStarza would have likely been awarded a razor thin split decision.) Would Marciano's position change at all, if he finished at 48-1? What if Holmes had gone 50-0 instead? (I try to rate Holmes and Marciano as if these things had indeed happened, as well as integrating their actual career outcomes.)

Foreman has admitted his observation that Ali never really learned the art of defense, relying on youthfull physical gifts to avoid punishment more than skill. He also praised Jerry Quarry to the rafters years before internet serivces allowed the rest of us to see how good Quarry really was at his best.

He shared the ring with four of the heavyweights on his list, as either an opponent or sparring partner, and desperately wanted to get a fifth one into a match. (Tyson, of course.) He is clearly giving Patterson credit for his skills and resilience, but I somehow doubt he truly believes Floyd is a top ten heavyweight. It would be very interesting to have an authentic idea of where he actually believes he fits into the pantheon of champions. He's fully cognizant of what his abilities were, and whose styles he might and might not have handled.

[ChrisPontius]

George is a lot smarter than he lets on sometimes. If we were to slip him an injection of sodium pentathol, it would be real interesting to see how this list changes.
:lol:



Marciano gets something of a free ride for 49-0. (As Ali does for his ring smarts, where his heart and toughness deserves credit instead,) What would that rating be if Rocky hadn't decked LaStarza in their first meeting? (LaStarza would have likely been awarded a razor thin split decision.) Would Marciano's position change at all, if he finished at 48-1? What if Holmes had gone 50-0 instead? (I try to rate Holmes and Marciano as if these things had indeed happened, as well as integrating their actual career outcomes.)


Marciano doesn't get a free ride because of his 49-0. He gets a free ride because he fought everyone, knocked ALL his top opposition out (a feat never accomplished in the 50 years before or after him) and always gave rematches when their was any doubt. If he had been 48-1 because of a close decision loss when he was green but having convingingly avenged that loss when he was more experienced (remember, he barely had an amature career unlike Holmes and Ali), it wouldn't have made much of a difference to me.

Why would you rank Holmes and Marciano "as if these things happened"? That's stupid. How about we rate Holmes asif he lost the verdict to 16 fight Witherspoon? Or against Carl Williams? Or against Norton? At least we would've seen rematches in that case though, he wouldn't have to run from them like he didn't with Spinks when he lost that one.
But what you basically say is you rate on speculation. I might just as well rate Tyson in the top3 because "what if he didn't lose to Douglas".




I have to say i'm not suprised to see Holyfield in there by the way. He thought very much of Holyfield after they fought, particularly his left hook to the body hurt according to him.

[Duodenum]

:lol:A stupid person wouldn't have enjoyed the sort of success outside the ring which Jim Corbett, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Larry Holmes, Mike Spinks and some others like Foreman have enjoyed. Boxing history is littered with prominent competitors who wound up destitute, and some of those actually did have reasonable intelligence.Marciano doesn't get a free ride because of his 49-0. He gets a free ride because he fought everyone, knocked ALL his top opposition out (a feat never accomplished in the 50 years before or after him) and always gave rematches when their was any doubt. If he had been 48-1 because of a close decision loss when he was green but having convingingly avenged that loss when he was more experienced (remember, he barely had an amature career unlike Holmes and Ali), it wouldn't have made much of a difference to me.

Why would you rank Holmes and Marciano "as if these things happened"? That's stupid. How about we rate Holmes asif he lost the verdict to 16 fight Witherspoon? Or against Carl Williams? Or against Norton? At least we would've seen rematches in that case though, he wouldn't have to run from them like he didn't with Spinks when he lost that one.
But what you basically say is you rate on speculation. I might just as well rate Tyson in the top3 because "what if he didn't lose to Douglas".Joe Frazier is one example of somebody who rates Marciano number two on the basis of 49-0. I sometimes wonder if boxing shouldn't simply return to the no-decision format, instead of accepting the subjective opinion of judges who may or may not be competent or honest. There is the argument that where subjective judging is involved, true competition is dead.

Without speculation, this would be a far more dull forum than it is. Concerning Holmes, yes, Norton, Witherspoon and Carl Williams could indeed have gone against him, depending on the judges. The same is true for Marciano with LaStarza I, Lowry I and Charles I. What happened between Douglas and Tyson was not a matter of subjective scoring.

The one glaring rematch omission in Larry's record is Witherspoon. Norton was eliminated from contention by Shavers. Otherwise, it would have been Kenny rematching Holmes, not a challenger who Larry had already won 34 of 36 minutes against. (Tommy Farr was eliminated from a potential rematch with Louis by his losses to Braddock, Baer, Nova and Burman.) Carl Williams was the final successful defense for Holmes. Larry didn't have the chance to rematch him before losing the title. It can be argued that Pinklon Thomas was no more worthy of a shot against Holmes than several other green contenders he actually did supply an opportunity to, until Thomas actually won the WBC Title over Tubbs. (Losing it to Berbick was rather appalling though.)

Quality is Marciano's legacy, quantity and longevity are that of Holmes. I have very strong feelings about Marciano, having long ago went through the time and effort to read his biography and manual with Charley Goldman on boxing and bodybuilding, as well as staying up late twice to view Murray Woroner's staged performance between Rocky and Ali (taking studious notes the second time). But Holmes was recognized as the top dog (and in fact called his jabs his "dogs") for a very substantial interval, yet only three of the decisions which went his way were questionable verdicts over an eight year, 21 bout period. That's still 18 challenges which are not disputed outcomes by most observers. (In Louis's case, Farr, Godoy I and Walcott I were somewhat debated judgements, although I'm satisfied that the scoring in favor of Louis was correct. Ditto for Pastor I.)

As you say Chris, 48-1 wouldn't have made much of a difference to you, but then you immediately follow that up with the claim that to adopt the attitude that rating Rocky as if he did go 48-1 is "stupid." I happen to agree with your first assertion, and disagree with the second.I have to say i'm not suprised to see Holyfield in there by the way. He thought very much of Holyfield after they fought, particularly his left hook to the body hurt according to him.I have a certain respect for anybody who got into the ring with George in the first place myself. As a professional, Holyfield has publicly conducted himself impeccably, in and out of the ring, even if he has privately ingested growth enhancing substances or liberally mated with numerous females in heat.

By virtue of publicly conducting oneself well, private misbehaviour can often be forgiven by the media, as Holyfield and Arguello have demonstrated. (Incidentally, Alexis Arguello is a walking advertisement for Dale Carnegie's, "How to Win Friends and Influence People," a manual his mentor and manager, Dr. Eduardo Roman, had him read early on.)

[Rubber Warrior]

Although Foreman has flirted with hyperbole from time to time, I have to take his assessment as truth. I'd be interested in knowing who #6 through #10 was.

[albinored]

..it's up a few posts from here but i recommend the goblin's entry on Foreman, and Frazier and fighters in general. Can't think of a better summary.:thumbsup

[Dempsey1238]

A stupid person wouldn't have enjoyed the sort of success outside the ring which Jim Corbett, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Larry Holmes, Mike Spinks and some others like Foreman have enjoyed. Boxing history is littered with prominent competitors who wound up destitute, and some of those actually did have reasonable intelligence.Joe Frazier is one example of somebody who rates Marciano number two on the basis of 49-0. I sometimes wonder if boxing shouldn't simply return to the no-decision format, instead of accepting the subjective opinion of judges who may or may not be competent or honest. There is the argument that where subjective judging is involved, true competition is dead.

Without speculation, this would be a far more dull forum than it is. Concerning Holmes, yes, Norton, Witherspoon and Carl Williams could indeed have gone against him, depending on the judges. The same is true for Marciano with LaStarza I, Lowry I and Charles I. What happened between Douglas and Tyson was not a matter of subjective scoring.

The one glaring rematch omission in Larry's record is Witherspoon. Norton was eliminated from contention by Shavers. Otherwise, it would have been Kenny rematching Holmes, not a challenger who Larry had already won 34 of 36 minutes against. (Tommy Farr was eliminated from a potential rematch with Louis by his losses to Braddock, Baer, Nova and Burman.) Carl Williams was the final successful defense for Holmes. Larry didn't have the chance to rematch him before losing the title. It can be argued that Pinklon Thomas was no more worthy of a shot against Holmes than several other green contenders he actually did supply an opportunity to, until Thomas actually won the WBC Title over Tubbs. (Losing it to Berbick was rather appalling though.)

Quality is Marciano's legacy, quantity and longevity are that of Holmes. I have very strong feelings about Marciano, having long ago went through the time and effort to read his biography and manual with Charley Goldman on boxing and bodybuilding, as well as staying up late twice to view Murray Woroner's staged performance between Rocky and Ali (taking studious notes the second time). But Holmes was recognized as the top dog (and in fact called his jabs his "dogs") for a very substantial interval, yet only three of the decisions which went his way were questionable verdicts over an eight year, 21 bout period. That's still 18 challenges which are not disputed outcomes by most observers. (In Louis's case, Farr, Godoy I and Walcott I were somewhat debated judgements, although I'm satisfied that the scoring in favor of Louis was correct. Ditto for Pastor I.)

As you say Chris, 48-1 wouldn't have made much of a difference to you, but then you immediately follow that up with the claim that to adopt the attitude that rating Rocky as if he did go 48-1 is "stupid." I happen to agree with your first assertion, and disagree with the second.I have a certain respect for anybody who got into the ring with George in the first place myself. As a professional, Holyfield has publicly conducted himself impeccably, in and out of the ring, even if he has privately ingested growth enhancing substances or liberally mated with numerous females in heat.

By virtue of publicly conducting oneself well, private misbehaviour can often be forgiven by the media, as Holyfield and Arguello have demonstrated. (Incidentally, Alexis Arguello is a walking advertisement for Dale Carnegie's, "How to Win Friends and Influence People," a manual his mentor and manager, Dr. Eduardo Roman, had him read early on.)

It seem by most reports, Marciano beat Charles in the first contest pretty handly. The late round surge from rounds 8-15 put Marciano head. The only way on a reasonble scorecard for Charles to win was by knockout. It was a great fight, but going soley on rounds and score cards, it was not that close.

[Duodenum]

It seem by most reports, Marciano beat Charles in the first contest pretty handly. The late round surge from rounds 8-15 put Marciano head. The only way on a reasonble scorecard for Charles to win was by knockout. It was a great fight, but going soley on rounds and score cards, it was not that close.Yes, and although I stated I was satisfied with the judgements in favor of Louis against Pastor, Farr, Godoy and Walcott, it was an oversight on my part to express the same opinion for the decisions in favor of Rocky against Lowry, LaStarza and Charles. My apologies for those omissions, especially having previously viewed Marciano/Charles I in it's entirety.

[Dempsey1238]

You have the fight complete?

[ChrisPontius]

A stupid person wouldn't have enjoyed the sort of success outside the ring which Jim Corbett, Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Baer, Max Schmeling, Primo Carnera, Larry Holmes, Mike Spinks and some others like Foreman have enjoyed. Boxing history is littered with prominent competitors who wound up destitute, and some of those actually did have reasonable intelligence.


I don't really know how i inspired you to typing that. I didn't mean to say Foreman was stupid if that's how you interpreted it. I don't know much about Foremans intelligence, but i do know he is very smart in making money (selling grills if you like) and a good & entertaining commentator even if he has some stupid calls here and there.

...But i just thought the "If we were to slip him an injection of sodium pentathol, it would be real interesting to see how this list changes." was funny.:D



Joe Frazier is one example of somebody who rates Marciano number two on the basis of 49-0. I sometimes wonder if boxing shouldn't simply return to the no-decision format, instead of accepting the subjective opinion of judges who may or may not be competent or honest. There is the argument that where subjective judging is involved, true competition is dead.

Without speculation, this would be a far more dull forum than it is. Concerning Holmes, yes, Norton, Witherspoon and Carl Williams could indeed have gone against him, depending on the judges. The same is true for Marciano with LaStarza I, Lowry I and Charles I. What happened between Douglas and Tyson was not a matter of subjective scoring.

The one glaring rematch omission in Larry's record is Witherspoon. Norton was eliminated from contention by Shavers. Otherwise, it would have been Kenny rematching Holmes, not a challenger who Larry had already won 34 of 36 minutes against. (Tommy Farr was eliminated from a potential rematch with Louis by his losses to Braddock, Baer, Nova and Burman.) Carl Williams was the final successful defense for Holmes. Larry didn't have the chance to rematch him before losing the title. It can be argued that Pinklon Thomas was no more worthy of a shot against Holmes than several other green contenders he actually did supply an opportunity to, until Thomas actually won the WBC Title over Tubbs. (Losing it to Berbick was rather appalling though.)

Quality is Marciano's legacy, quantity and longevity are that of Holmes. I have very strong feelings about Marciano, having long ago went through the time and effort to read his biography and manual with Charley Goldman on boxing and bodybuilding, as well as staying up late twice to view Murray Woroner's staged performance between Rocky and Ali (taking studious notes the second time). But Holmes was recognized as the top dog (and in fact called his jabs his "dogs") for a very substantial interval, yet only three of the decisions which went his way were questionable verdicts over an eight year, 21 bout period. That's still 18 challenges which are not disputed outcomes by most observers. (In Louis's case, Farr, Godoy I and Walcott I were somewhat debated judgements, although I'm satisfied that the scoring in favor of Louis was correct. Ditto for Pastor I.)

As you say Chris, 48-1 wouldn't have made much of a difference to you, but then you immediately follow that up with the claim that to adopt the attitude that rating Rocky as if he did go 48-1 is "stupid." I happen to agree with your first assertion, and disagree with the second.I have a certain respect for anybody who got into the ring with George in the first place myself. As a professional, Holyfield has publicly conducted himself impeccably, in and out of the ring, even if he has privately ingested growth enhancing substances or liberally mated with numerous females in heat.


Well, okay i don't feel like going over the same Holmes discussion again.

I will keep it short by saying that Norton got knocked out AFTER Holmes refused a rematch. That Holmes lost to spinks AFTER he refused to give Williams a rematch.



I said that it wouldn't matter much to me if Marciano was 48-1 because of an early close, avenged loss to LaStarza or Lowry, but he is 49-0 (43) and it's ridiculous to rate him asif he's 48-1 even if it doesn't matter much.

Like i said, i don't see you rate Holmes asif he lost his close decisions.... which weren't when he was green like Marciano by the way, and he didn't avenge them like Marciano did, either.

[Duodenum]

I don't really know how i inspired you to typing that. I didn't mean to say Foreman was stupid if that's how you interpreted it. I don't know much about Foremans intelligence, but i do know he is very smart in making money (selling grills if you like) and a good & entertaining commentator even if he has some stupid calls here and there.

...But i just thought the "If we were to slip him an injection of sodium pentathol, it would be real interesting to see how this list changes." was funny.:DThat's cool Chris. As you guessed, I wasn't sure if your laughing icon was due to my suggestion that George was intelligent, or in response to the "truth serum" suggestion. (Thanks for the clarification.) Naw, my reply was only a "just in case" answer to the former meaning.

I don't recall Holmes refusing a rematch with "The Truth," but I'll take you at your word this was indeed the case.

Norton was widely expected to defeat Shavers easily, as surprising as that seems in retrospect, which would have made a rematch that much more profitable for both. On camera at least, Ken and Larry had a perfectly cordial and outwardly respectful relationship between their classic match and Norton's loss to Shavers.

The civility between them was actually a refreshing change from the manufactured animosity Ali created before many of his superfights. It may seem incredible to younger fans, but until the Berbick fight, Larry seemed actually to be a pretty easygoing sort, for the most part. After taking out Ali, his treatment by the press, such things as the way he was disrespected before facing Cooney (Gerry getting introduced to the crowd after him, a phone line in Cooney's dressing room to The White House, but not in Larry's dressing room, the way ABC brought Cooney ringside after Larry's win over Leon Spinks detracted from it, etc...), gradually embittered him. Yet, everybody I know who has met him in person has had only good things to say about him. (But the media is monarchist anyways, and to them, Ali is a king, Holmes merely a pretender.)

[Bill1234]

The civility between them was actually a refreshing change from the manufactured animosity Ali created before many of his superfights. It may seem incredible to younger fans, but until the Berbick fight, Larry seemed actually to be a pretty easygoing sort, for the most part. After taking out Ali, his treatment by the press, such things as the way he was disrespected before facing Cooney (Gerry getting introduced to the crowd after him, a phone line in Cooney's dressing room to The White House, but not in Larry's dressing room, the way ABC brought Cooney ringside after Larry's win over Leon Spinks detracted from it, etc...), gradually embittered him. Yet, everybody I know who has met him in person has had only good things to say about him. (But the media is monarchist anyways, and to them, Ali is a king, Holmes merely a pretender.)

Exactly. Just yesterday at the gym Larry was kidding around with me and signed a book for someone and talked with them. Great, great man.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Exactly. Just yesterday at the gym Larry signed a book for someone and talked with them.


What did he say: "That'll be 20 bucks junior."

[ChrisPontius]

That's cool Chris. As you guessed, I wasn't sure if your laughing icon was due to my suggestion that George was intelligent, or in response to the "truth serum" suggestion. (Thanks for the clarification.) Naw, my reply was only a "just in case" answer to the former meaning.

I don't recall Holmes refusing a rematch with "The Truth," but I'll take you at your word this was indeed the case.

Norton was widely expected to defeat Shavers easily, as surprising as that seems in retrospect, which would have made a rematch that much more profitable for both. On camera at least, Ken and Larry had a perfectly cordial and outwardly respectful relationship between their classic match and Norton's loss to Shavers.

The civility between them was actually a refreshing change from the manufactured animosity Ali created before many of his superfights. It may seem incredible to younger fans, but until the Berbick fight, Larry seemed actually to be a pretty easygoing sort, for the most part. After taking out Ali, his treatment by the press, such things as the way he was disrespected before facing Cooney (Gerry getting introduced to the crowd after him, a phone line in Cooney's dressing room to The White House, but not in Larry's dressing room, the way ABC brought Cooney ringside after Larry's win over Leon Spinks detracted from it, etc...), gradually embittered him. Yet, everybody I know who has met him in person has had only good things to say about him. (But the media is monarchist anyways, and to them, Ali is a king, Holmes merely a pretender.)
I can't blame you for mis-interpreting that, certainly my attitude gave you reason for it. I gotta say i have learnt a thing or two about drugs from reading your posts. Then again, after studying Holmes' opponents you must have gained a lot of knowlegde on that subject (not taking anything away from Holmes, just the way the 80's were).

By the way, Holmes wasn't really classy about Cooney even before the phone line to the White house, getting introduced after him etc. He walked around with a huge chip on his shoulder, saying that Cooney would've been nothing if he was black, etc. Certainly there was a lot of truth to that, but the way he kept saying it just made the impression of a bitter man.

To be honest, my impression is that he tried to do what Ali did: degrade his opponents and become more popular. Larry's problem was that he came across as being arrogant (selfish, pretentious, etc) whereas Ali came across as cocky (arrogant+funny, magic formula). He missed the "funny" part and became very unpopular as a result.

I think Lewis tried exactly the same but also missed the funny part. He did have some funny things, but it looked very forced unlike Ali where it came naturally. Lewis, while arrogant, was very relaxed though (barring the post-Klitschko-fight interview), and not as bitter as Holmes.

[Duodenum]

I gotta say i have learnt a thing or two about drugs from reading your posts.Nothing you couldn't have learned yourself through on-line access. (Let's face it: I've got waaayyy too much time on my hands!)

[Bill1234]

What did he say: "That'll be 20 bucks junior."

LOL, he charges $10. J/K. Its all free.

[Bill1234]

By the way, Holmes wasn't really classy about Cooney even before the phone line to the White house, getting introduced after him etc. He walked around with a huge chip on his shoulder, saying that Cooney would've been nothing if he was black, etc. Certainly there was a lot of truth to that, but the way he kept saying it just made the impression of a bitter man.

To be honest, my impression is that he tried to do what Ali did: degrade his opponents and become more popular. Larry's problem was that he came across as being arrogant (selfish, pretentious, etc) whereas Ali came across as cocky (arrogant+funny, magic formula). He missed the "funny" part and became very unpopular as a result.

I think Lewis tried exactly the same but also missed the funny part. He did have some funny things, but it looked very forced unlike Ali where it came naturally. Lewis, while arrogant, was very relaxed though (barring the post-Klitschko-fight interview), and not as bitter as Holmes.


Larry was bitter, but didn't walk around with a chip on his shoulder. Pretty much your buying into the image the media portrayed of him. Larry isn't and didn't try to be anyone but him self. He likes to have fun, and that isn't copying Ali. I like to have fun and stuff, but am I copying Ali? No. Larry had reason to dislike Cooney (or at least think to) Rappaport and King had a lot to do with Larry's bitterness going into the Cooney fight, and fans didn't help either. Someone did a drive by shooting on his resturant building in Easton. People blew up his mail boxes threatend his wife and him. His wife couldn't even leave the house alone safely. Larry had to carry a pistol around, and he had to watch his back. While that was troubling him enough Rappaport (IMO an A grade ass hole and liar) and King were building up the great white hope bull shit. Larry isn't bitter now either. He never had a chip on his shoulder, just a temper and hates liars, bull shitters etc. Here is a good documentary on Holmes-Cooney:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

and here is Larry Holmes: Beyond the glory. Unfortunately, they show the sucky fighters in the gym. I joined a few months after this was filmed.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Langford]

Bill,

what does Holmes think of Cooney now a days? Or does nobody want to ask him?

[Pat_Lowe]

Bill,

what does Holmes think of Cooney now a days? Or does nobody want to ask him?

I'm under the impression they are great friends. Holmes has commented on the work Cooney is doing with FIST and helps out when he can.

[Bill1234]

Bill,

what does Holmes think of Cooney now a days? Or does nobody want to ask him?

Larry and Cooney are great friends. Larry is a big part of Cooney's FIST foundation helping retired boxers in need. Larry has several pictures of him with Cooney on the walls of the gym.

[RoccoMarciano]

George is a lot smarter than he lets on sometimes. If we were to slip him an injection of sodium pentathol, it would be real interesting to see how this list changes. Despite himself, his genuine opinions slip out from time to time, and they are informative flashes of insight.

Marciano gets something of a free ride for 49-0. (As Ali does for his ring smarts, where his heart and toughness deserves credit instead,) What would that rating be if Rocky hadn't decked LaStarza in their first meeting? (LaStarza would have likely been awarded a razor thin split decision.) Would Marciano's position change at all, if he finished at 48-1? What if Holmes had gone 50-0 instead? (I try to rate Holmes and Marciano as if these things had indeed happened, as well as integrating their actual career outcomes.)

Foreman has admitted his observation that Ali never really learned the art of defense, relying on youthfull physical gifts to avoid punishment more than skill. He also praised Jerry Quarry to the rafters years before internet serivces allowed the rest of us to see how good Quarry really was at his best.

He shared the ring with four of the heavyweights on his list, as either an opponent or sparring partner, and desperately wanted to get a fifth one into a match. (Tyson, of course.) He is clearly giving Patterson credit for his skills and resilience, but I somehow doubt he truly believes Floyd is a top ten heavyweight. It would be very interesting to have an authentic idea of where he actually believes he fits into the pantheon of champions. He's fully cognizant of what his abilities were, and whose styles he might and might not have handled.
Thanks for the reply to my post, Duodenum - you are an excellent poster!

Sodium Pentathol may just do the trick :lol:

I really think George thinks the world of Marciano... which may slant his opinion in his (Marciano's) favour. Perhaps the same could be said of Ali, Frazier etc.

You make a good point regarding LaStarza... Rocky would have been diminished if he lost to LaStarza. Simple fact of the matter is boxing history has already dictated Rocky beat LaStarza, twice. I don't think Rocky ever went into a fight wanting to hurt the other guy, except where LaStarza is concerned. Rocky proved beyond a reasonable person's doubt he was better than LaStarza in the second fight.

I think Patterson is overrated in Foreman's list. Like you, I think Floyd, and his obvious boxing skill, may have served to inflate his position in Foreman's eyes. I'll give Patterson a top 15... on the outside looking in at the real top 10s.

George needs to give himself a bit more credit on a top ten list. He certainly belongs amongst the ATG top 10 HWs in my opinion! Just an opinion, of course, but one few people would argue with!

[albinored]

Rocco - Marciano never wanted to hurt a guy? Right. All those punches after the bell, headbutts, hitting a guy when he was down were just his showing his affection.

[RoccoMarciano]

Larry and Cooney are great friends. Larry is a big part of Cooney's FIST foundation helping retired boxers in need. Larry has several pictures of him with Cooney on the walls of the gym.
Holmes and Cooney are a good combination.. today!

Why Holmes acted the way he did in the past towards Cooney, was, quite frankly, Holmes being himself - at that particular point in time. I think Holmes has changed a lot, personality wise, over the years. Being a combative sort is what made him great in his boxing prime. Asking him to not be that way, at that time, is like asking the sky to be purple..... It was his nature at that point in time.

All people change!

[JohnThomas1]

Bill,

what does Holmes think of Cooney now a days? Or does nobody want to ask him?

Larry has nothing but good to say about Cooney now he's beat him. Especially when it comes to how great a fighter Cooney was.

[Duodenum]

Holmes and Cooney are a good combination.. today!

Why Holmes acted the way he did in the past towards Cooney, was, quite frankly, Holmes being himself - at that particular point in time. I think Holmes has changed a lot, personality wise, over the years. Being a combative sort is what made him great in his boxing prime. Asking him to not be that way, at that time, is like asking the sky to be purple..... It was his nature at that point in time.

All people change!Except Gene Fullmer and Joey Giardello!:lol: (How many posters on ESB have seen the heat between those two at the IBHOF's Induction Weekends? Some people never grow up!)

[Duodenum]

Thanks for the reply to my post, Duodenum - you are an excellent poster!Nah, I'm just a typing idiot/"blowhard" with way too much time on my hands. ChrisPontius could tell you that! (And probably will!:lol:)

[ChrisPontius]

Larry was bitter, but didn't walk around with a chip on his shoulder. Pretty much your buying into the image the media portrayed of him. Larry isn't and didn't try to be anyone but him self. He likes to have fun, and that isn't copying Ali. I like to have fun and stuff, but am I copying Ali? No. Larry had reason to dislike Cooney (or at least think to) Rappaport and King had a lot to do with Larry's bitterness going into the Cooney fight, and fans didn't help either. Someone did a drive by shooting on his resturant building in Easton. People blew up his mail boxes threatend his wife and him. His wife couldn't even leave the house alone safely. Larry had to carry a pistol around, and he had to watch his back. While that was troubling him enough Rappaport (IMO an A grade ass hole and liar) and King were building up the great white hope bull shit. Larry isn't bitter now either. He never had a chip on his shoulder, just a temper and hates liars, bull shitters etc. Here is a good documentary on Holmes-Cooney:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

and here is Larry Holmes: Beyond the glory. Unfortunately, they show the sucky fighters in the gym. I joined a few months after this was filmed.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

If anything, he looked pretty bitter when he spook to the public in those videos. The ones of when he was a champion, not when he comments while in his 50's. I agree about Rappaport, he has "car salesman" written all over him.

[Bill1234]

All those punches after the bell, headbutts, hitting a guy when he was down were just his showing his affection.

Marciano didn't hit guys after the bell or when they are down. Tyson did all of that, plus every other foul in the book, and even some that aren't.

[Bill1234]

If anything, he looked pretty bitter when he spook to the public in those videos. The ones of when he was a champion, not when he comments while in his 50's. I agree about Rappaport, he has "car salesman" written all over him.

He was bitter when he spoke to the public, and it should be expected. Larry was treated like dirt as champion, by almost everyone, including King. Of course King will act like a great guy towards Larry, but behind the seens, him and Larry didn't get along. Going into the Cooney fight was the worst racial surrounding since the Johnson era. Larry truly was in danger of being shot. Someone attempted to by doing a drive by shooting on his building in Easton.

[janitor]

He was bitter when he spoke to the public, and it should be expected. Larry was treated like dirt as champion, by almost everyone, including King. Of course King will act like a great guy towards Larry, but behind the seens, him and Larry didn't get along. Going into the Cooney fight was the worst racial surrounding since the Johnson era. Larry truly was in danger of being shot. Someone attempted to by doing a drive by shooting on his building in Easton.

Holmes was targeted by the KKK in the run up to the Cooney fight. Threats were writen on the side of his house and such.

Holmes might not be the most gracious of heavy champions but if you went through the dirty laundry of every heavy champion he would come out better than prety much all of them.

[Bill1234]

Holmes was targeted by the KKK in the run up to the Cooney fight. Threats were writen on the side of his house and such.

Holmes might not be the most gracious of heavy champions but if you went through the dirty laundry of every heavy champion he would come out better than prety much all of them.

Holmes was targeted by a lot of people. But your right, if you go through all of the heavyweight champion's dirty laundry, IMO Larry would be a top 10 for cleanest. Tyson would be in the top 5 for worst. He passed Holmes by age 12.

[albinored]

Bill.....perhaps you should see an eye doctor. If you have seen Marciano against Don cockell you must have missed the shots Marciano hit him with when he was down. He hit Charles after the bell in the first fight, a punch that a writer for ring magazine said could have changed the course of the fight. He was warned about five times in seven rounds against LaStarza in their title fight. No rounds taken away. (in their first fight he lost one round on a foul. I think it was a low blow.) I saw all but the last mentioned fights live and I have seen them since on film. This is not a complete list of his blatant fouls; just enough to get you started after you get a pair of glasses.

Some say he was just a rough fighter and his lack of height may have caused these to happen by accident as he charged in.

Actually, he was a deliberately dirty fighter .

[Dempsey1238]

Well I have the Cockell fight, and Marciano explain that he didnt hear the bell when he nail Cockell after the bell. It happens. Ali and Liston exchange shots after the first round.

The Rabbit punch people keep bring up, Cockell turn away from the blow when knock him in the ropes. That was Cockell's fault.

And the knockdown, Marciano explain he already had the punch going, and coulnt stop himself in time. Outside of these, and the 1 headbutt I spotted, there wasnt many fouls. Just a normal Marciano fight who thown his punchings eveywere and ANYwere. He also was not that pin point in thowing his shots. He was no Ali or Joe Louis in that regard.

For LarSarza II, the Rock was rusty, He hardly fought for a year, and the only fight he had that year was the walcott rematch which lasted a round. He was over comeing a bad case of ring rust in the early rounds.

[Marciano Frazier]

Yes, and although I stated I was satisfied with the judgements in favor of Louis against Pastor, Farr, Godoy and Walcott, it was an oversight on my part to express the same opinion for the decisions in favor of Rocky against Lowry, LaStarza and Charles. My apologies for those omissions, especially having previously viewed Marciano/Charles I in it's entirety. If Marciano-Charles I had been given to Charles, it would promptly have been near-unanimously declared the biggest robbery in the history of the heavyweight division, I expect.

[Duodenum]

If Marciano-Charles I had been given to Charles, it would promptly have been near-unanimously declared the biggest robbery in the history of the heavyweight division, I expect.Yes, thanks to the fact it was for the championship distance of 15 rounds, not the wussified 12 round limit, pandering to interloping medical society reformers who ultimately wish to see it banned outright. (Never make concessions to an interest which has the eventual demise of that enterprise as the final objective.)

[Seamus]

At the point Foreman faced him Ali was sitting more on his punches, and in their particular fight, Ali certainly knew he must gain Foreman's respect with a show of some power.

Ali was a large guy with speed. At some point, with feet planted, that must equal some amount of power.

[Bill1234]

Bill.....perhaps you should see an eye doctor. If you have seen Marciano against Don cockell you must have missed the shots Marciano hit him with when he was down. He hit Charles after the bell in the first fight, a punch that a writer for ring magazine said could have changed the course of the fight. He was warned about five times in seven rounds against LaStarza in their title fight. No rounds taken away. (in their first fight he lost one round on a foul. I think it was a low blow.) I saw all but the last mentioned fights live and I have seen them since on film. This is not a complete list of his blatant fouls; just enough to get you started after you get a pair of glasses.

Some say he was just a rough fighter and his lack of height may have caused these to happen by accident as he charged in.

Actually, he was a deliberately dirty fighter .

No, he wasn't. He wasn't dirty on purpose. You want to see that watch Holyfield, Tyson, and Cooney. When Marciano saw the Cockell fight even he went pail. He truly didn't realize he was doing anything. He was in bed with the flu for a week just before the fight. You will mention Marciano not getting rounds taken away, but what about Ali? Holding behind the head and neck. Rabbit punching. In the 2nd Frazier fight he was disgraceful.

[JohnThomas1]

No, he wasn't. He wasn't dirty on purpose. You want to see that watch Holyfield, Tyson, and Cooney.

Refresh my memory on where Cooney was dirty, trying to remember.

[Pat_Lowe]

Refresh my memory on where Cooney was dirty, trying to remember.

The numerous low blows on Larry Holmes :D

[JohnThomas1]

The numerous low blows on Larry Holmes :D


LMAO!! Forgot that. Thanks. Cooney has a couple of low blows in one fight and gets called dirty. Holmes gets accused of thumbing thoughout his career but i bet that one's written off

;)

[Duodenum]

LMAO!! Forgot that. Thanks. Cooney has a couple of low blows in one fight and gets called dirty. Holmes gets accused of thumbing thoughout his career but i bet that one's written off

;)C'mon JT! Larry punched sooooo hard, he decked LeDoux with a single finger on his right hand:good! (Scott was really pissed off after that match, because Holmes had a better thumb than LeDoux himself was able to produce against Norton.:fire)

[JohnThomas1]

C'mon JT! Larry punched sooooo hard, he decked LeDoux with a single finger on his right hand:good! (Scott was really pissed off after that match, because Holmes had a better thumb than LeDoux himself was able to produce against Norton.:fire)

LOL! Wasn't it left hand! Not to forget Scott Frank of course.

Larry did indeed have a sizable reputation for thumbing.

[Duodenum]

It's useful to remember that Ali had the following opponents down for at least ten seconds. (I'll omit Sonny Liston, since nearly everybody believes he could have beaten the count in Lewiston.)

London, Folley, Blin, Blue Lewis (for nearly 15 seconds in round five), Bob Foster, Foreman, Wepner (finally struggled to his feet 12 seconds after going down in round 15), and Coopman.

That's eight opponents during Ali's run as a top heavyweight, to Larry Holmes's two. (Evangelista and Zanon, although Larry came extremely close to putting Ocasio down for the count with the first jab he dropped Jaws with.)

Additionally, the three knockdown rule was invoked against Archie Moore and Bonavena.

In round two of the middle fight with Frazier, he drove Smoke from ring center to a neutral corner before Tony Perez broke it up prematurely. The right cross Muhammad screened from Joe with his extended jab to initiate that sequence must have had some considerable force behind it to make Frazier give ground like that. (It was the only time in Ali/Frazier II that he sent Joe into full retreat.)

During the second Norton fight, Ali knocked Ken backwards with a left hook at 1:50 of round four, and at 2:11 of round six, he wobbled Norton with a cross screened behind his jab. Those may be the two punches Norton had in mind when he described Ali as a harder puncher than Holmes.

His performance against Blue Lewis is an interesting deviation from the usual behavior one might expect from a prime Ali. Competing against a slightly larger opponent on a softly padded canvas, and recovering from a cold, he continually stalked Lewis from a flatfooted posture, ducking shots more than leaning away from them, attacking the body steadily, keeping lower than his prey, and knocking Lewis around continually with consistently hard punches. This was one of those rare occasions where Muhammad really outslugged somebody his own size, forcing Lewis into retreat as they were each pounding away from a wide base.

For all intents and purposes, this should have been a clean one punch knockout win for Ali in round five. Muhammad's late round bomb had Lewis flat on his back from 03:37 to 03:49 according to the youtube counter, and he didn't come completely off the canvas until 03:52, at which point the bell rang ending the round. (Ali finally took to his toes in round 11, and the referee stopped the contest shortly thereafter.)

Lewis really should have been counted out of time in round five, even with referee Lew Eskin's leisurely sense of pacing. (Liston would have beaten the count in Lewiston if Eskin had been refereeing his rematch with Ali as he officiated in Dublin. Then again, Muhammad's Irish cousins did get their money's worth seeing him compete live.) Blue Lewis would have very interesting feedback to offer about Ali's power.

[Duodenum]

LOL! Wasn't it left hand! Not to forget Scott Frank of course.

Larry did indeed have a sizable reputation for thumbing.If Holmes managed to do that with his left, he was far more skilled than I give him credit for!

Although I haven't seen it since it aired live, what I remember is Chris Schenkel reviewing the slow-motion footage with LeDoux after the match, and from my sketchy recall of the event, the "extended digit" was on Larry's right. However, with Ali's antics stealing the show in Bloomington, it was a little challenging to pay close attention to what was actually happening inside the ring. Remember the closing shot of Ali shadowboxing in the audience, in white dress shirt, causing his necktie to flail wildly about? "(The fight) was terrible, LeDoux wasn't the man-I"M GOING TO DESTROY LARRY HOLMES!")

[ChrisPontius]

My mother could've kept Blue Lewis and Blin down for the count.

[Bill1234]

Refresh my memory on where Cooney was dirty, trying to remember.

He went south of the boarder quite a bit.

[Bill1234]

LMAO!! Forgot that. Thanks. Cooney has a couple of low blows in one fight and gets called dirty. Holmes gets accused of thumbing thoughout his career but i bet that one's written off

;)


Cooney didn't go low against just Larry, pretty much everyone. Also, Larry gets called dirty for a few thumbs, but Ali is called clean holding behind peoples heads through out his whole career, and getting yelled at by the ref numerous times during the fights for it. Ali was disgraceful in the 2nd Frazier fight with it.

[Duodenum]

Cooney didn't go low against just Larry, pretty much everyone. Also, Larry gets called dirty for a few thumbs, but Ali is called clean holding behind peoples heads through out his whole career, and getting yelled at by the ref numerous times during the fights for it. Ali was disgraceful in the 2nd Frazier fight with it.In his autobiography, Arthur Mercante did call Ali a dirty fighter. Choir boys don't usually become dominant heavyweight champions. As for Scott Frank, well, he won the NJ HW Title from Chuck Wepner, so there was absolutely no way Larry was going to subject him to anything Scott wouldn't have tried to inflict upon him first, given the opportunity. (You Holmes critics on ESB Classic must love the fact that Frank's final NJ Title defense came against Eddie Mallard!:rofl)

[albinored]

..Dempsey and Bill 12etc.....with your vision and ability to rationalize you'd make good Las Vegas judges.

As for Ali, Holyfield, John L. Sullivan...whoever....my post was about Marciano and no others. I didn't say he was the only dirty fighter. Plus, the fact that others were dirty doesn't make Marciano a clean one.


RE; the decision in Charles/Marciano I....I idolize the first and dislike the second named here, but the verdict in favor of Marciano was clearly the correct one.

[Duodenum]

..Dempsey and Bill 12etc.....with your vision and ability to rationalize you'd make good Las Vegas judges.No, that would be me. (Even Bill thinks I go too far in my praise of Holmes!)

[Bill1234]

..Dempsey and Bill 12etc.....with your vision and ability to rationalize you'd make good Las Vegas judges.

As for Ali, Holyfield, John L. Sullivan...whoever....my post was about Marciano and no others. I didn't say he was the only dirty fighter. Plus, the fact that others were dirty doesn't make Marciano a clean one.


RE; the decision in Charles/Marciano I....I idolize the first and dislike the second named here, but the verdict in favor of Marciano was clearly the correct one.

Thank you ass hole. :smooch I never said Marciano-Charles was the wrong decision. Marciano wasn't as dirty as you make him sound. Sure he worked an elbow in here and there, or went low a little, but all in all, there have been far dirtier.

[RoccoMarciano]

Thank you ass hole. :smooch I never said Marciano-Charles was the wrong decision. Marciano wasn't as dirty as you make him sound. Sure he worked an elbow in here and there, or went low a little, but all in all, there have been far dirtier.

Didn't a Charles elbow split Rocky's nose? I'll always say Marciano hit with elbows, but not intentionally.... the same can be said of Charles, or anybody else that missed with a punch.

[JohnThomas1]

Cooney didn't go low against just Larry, pretty much everyone.

I've got a fair few Cooney fights, what other bouts and perhaps rounds did he hit others low in, i'll have a look then.

[Bill1234]

I've got a fair few Cooney fights, what other bouts and perhaps rounds did he hit others low in, i'll have a look then.

If I recall right he went a little south against Foreman and Young. It looked like 1 or 2 were borderline against Lyle.

[JohnThomas1]

If I recall right he went a little south against Foreman and Young. It looked like 1 or 2 were borderline against Lyle.

I'll check out all 3, tho it sounds pretty tame TBH. Bodypunchers like Cooney are prone to the odd punch below the belt, and when you have the extreme power Cooney did it stands out due to the damage compared to say "just" a solid puncher like Pintor or Chavez.

[Bill1234]

I'll check out all 3, tho it sounds pretty tame TBH. Bodypunchers like Cooney are prone to the odd punch below the belt, and when you have the extreme power Cooney did it stands out due to the damage compared to say "just" a solid puncher like Pintor or Chavez.

Good points, but the same could be said about Marciano then.

[JohnThomas1]

Good points, but the same could be said about Marciano then.

Marciano's not on trial tho.

[Bill1234]

Marciano's not on trial tho.

He was just a few posts ago. Or was that in the other thread?:huh

[JohnThomas1]

He was just a few posts ago. Or was that in the other thread?:huh

Not with me, i rarely comment and certainly don't attack him.

[RoccoMarciano]

Not with me, i rarely comment and certainly don't attack him.

Really... What do you think of Marciano then......the world is all ears lol

[Bill1234]

Not with me, i rarely comment and certainly don't attack him.

Ok. I remember someone attacking him, don't remember who, nor care to look ATM.

[JohnThomas1]

Really... What do you think of Marciano then......the world is all ears lol


The world can fukking wait can't it lol

[Bill1234]

The world can fukking wait can't it lol

Not the old people with cancer or parkinsons, or going deaf, or really old people in general. They can't wait too long.

[JohnThomas1]

Not the old people with cancer or parkinsons, or going deaf, or really old people in general. They can't wait too long.

I have trouble believing they are all Marciano fans lol

[Bill1234]

Anyways...I'd say Ali's punches had more effect on Ali because George was exhausted and litteraly stepping into Ali's punches. Stepping into them hurts. I know from personal experience. Walking smack into even a light jab hurts like hell. Walking into a hard jab hurts worse (obviously). Foreman was walking smack into Ali's punches face first, and he was exhausted. So it increased the pain and effect of Muhammad's shots.

[Bill1234]

I have trouble believing they are all Marciano fans lol

LOL. Who knows? He was popular back in the day. I wish he still was. He was the first guy I payed attention to. He's still tied for my 1st favorite fighter of all time.

[RoccoMarciano]

The world can fukking wait can't it lol

Not for you... there are better things for it to do!

[JohnThomas1]

Not for you... there are better things for it to do!

Well you were the one who said it was all ears, not me. That time of month is it?

[RoccoMarciano]

Well you were the one who said it was all ears, not me. That time of month is it?

:lol:, good to have you on board lol