Prime v Prime - Norton wont trouble Ali.

[Bill Butcher]

My reasons for thinking/knowing that prime Ali coasts vs Norton are simple.

1. In the 1st fight, Ali came in out of shape + recieved a lucky jaw breaking punch aswell & STILL finished the fight bagging some rds (tho he lost clearly on my card) & all this while terribly underestimating Ken.

2. The 3rd fight where many thought Ken was robbed wasnt the real Ali, Muhammad was never the same after frazier III in 75, the only thing Ali still had was ringcraft & handspeed, his legs were nothing to what they were & norton still let Ali close the show with a big last rd.

3. Their 2nd fight, both men were 100% ready, Kenny had the belief as he won the 1st time & Ali got down to 212 lbs (his best weight) knowing it was a must win or no shot at foreman.
For me, Ali swept the 1st 5 rds by using footspeed & movement (not quite prime Ali but as good as he`s looked in the 70`s) then Ali started tiring & still most rds were even tho Ken had closed the gap by the end of rd 11.
Rd 12 was a rd Ken needed badly & Ali showed his class by dominating the rd to take a clear win on my card.

4. Prime Ali aint gonna be taking no breaks after rd 5, you can bet your life on that & Ali would take this fight 10-2 or 12-2-1 even in a 15 rder.

Watch their 2nd fight & you will see what I mean, Ken didnt have Ali`s number, he just got him twice when any other decent fighter would have done likewise or better.

Ali UD Norton

[janitor]

No I think that Norton definitely had Ali's number stylisticaly in the first fight.

He broke Alis jaw in the first place because he found a flaw in his style to exploit. He found that he could hit him clean when he countered straight down the pipe and taged him consistently thoughout the fight.

[Holmes' Jab]

Personally speaking I think Norton gives near enough any version of Ali fits. It's a styles thang. :yep

[janitor]

Alis main nemesis was not Ken Norton or even Joe Frazier it was Eddie Futch. He was the man who really had Ali's number.

The man who drew up the plans that both used to beat him!

Here is what Norton quoted him as saying.............

“Your not going to hit Ali by slipping, dropping underneath or parrying. You have to hit him while he’s punching. When he starts to jab you punch with him. Keep your right hand high. His jab will pop into the middle of your glove and then your jab will come right down the pipe.”

“If you start from the center of the ring it will only take you three steps to get Ali on the ropes. Every time you jab, step in and jab again. Then do the same thing. Don’t do like all the other guys do. Don’t throw your left hook to the head, he’ll pull back against the ropes and pepper you with counter-punches, instead start banging his body with both hands.”

And years later

“The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.”

[ChrisPontius]

Why was the punch that broke his jaw "lucky"?

I see lucky as things that just happen to you without any intended purpose; meeting a great woman in the video story, being born in wealthy circumstances, etc.

Norton threw that punch with the intention to hurt Ali. And it worked. How is that lucky? It's having a plan and executing it.

[Rubber Warrior]

Ali was in against two in the Norton fights. Those that know the history of those fights will know what I mean.

[Bill Butcher]

Why was the punch that broke his jaw "lucky"?

I see lucky as things that just happen to you without any intended purpose; meeting a great woman in the video story, being born in wealthy circumstances, etc.

Norton threw that punch with the intention to hurt Ali. And it worked. How is that lucky? It's having a plan and executing it.

By lucky, I mean its not every fight you brake someones jaw with 1 punch & fighters try hurt each other in EVERY fight but very very rarely does something, anything never mind a jaw get broken.

It was a massive hinderance to Ali but even without that, he badly underestimated ken, wasnt in the best shape & would still have lost that night IMO.

However, my thread is prime v prime & the 2nd fight gives you the best example of how that fight would go (you must know this) & Ali defo won fight 2, not without trouble from rd 6 on but still a decisive win.

A prime Ali would sweep about 10 rds in a 12 rder vs norton & as Ali would say `No contest.`

[Dempsey1238]

Ali may have won fight 2, BUT it was still a razor edge fight that could have gone either way.

[janitor]

By lucky, I mean its not every fight you brake someones jaw with 1 punch & fighters try hurt each other in EVERY fight but very very rarely does something, anything never mind a jaw get broken.


The point is that Norton found a flaw in Ali's style that alowed him to land on Alis jaw consistently.

Good fight plan pure and simple.

[Longhhorn71]

Alis main nemesis was not Ken Norton or even Joe Frazier it was Eddie Futch. He was the man who really had Ali's number.

The man who drew up the plans that both used to beat him!

Here is what Norton quoted him as saying.............

“Your not going to hit Ali by slipping, dropping underneath or parrying. You have to hit him while he’s punching. When he starts to jab you punch with him. Keep your right hand high. His jab will pop into the middle of your glove and then your jab will come right down the pipe.”

“If you start from the center of the ring it will only take you three steps to get Ali on the ropes. Every time you jab, step in and jab again. Then do the same thing. Don’t do like all the other guys do. Don’t throw your left hook to the head, he’ll pull back against the ropes and pepper you with counter-punches, instead start banging his body with both hands.”

And years later

“The jab was a big reason Muhammad Ali never figured out why he had so much trouble with Ken Norton in their three fights.”

What if Foreman had had Futch in his corner, and we know Joe Louis had "Chapie" Blackburn in his corner who would have seen the same flaw......."somebody" could have been in serious trouble.

[hobgoblin]

No, I don't think Foreman had the reflexes to handle Ali's handspeed.

Prime for prime, Ali has a long night of work, but he wins clearly with Norton.

Trying to time yourself with Ali's jab is VERY HARD to do IMO - you gotta be the best amongst world class fighters (as if you don't know that lol) like Joe Frazier or Ken Norton - that jab is so FAST it is tough to avoid. Easier said than done.

[My dinner with Conteh]

However, my thread is prime v prime & the 2nd fight gives you the best example of how that fight would go (you must know this) & Ali defo won fight 2, not without trouble from rd 6 on but still a decisive win.

A prime Ali would sweep about 10 rds in a 12 rder vs norton & as Ali would say `No contest.`



While I agree that the 2nd fight was more of an indicator of how a peak Ali would have fought, but, of course, this was a rematch, wherein Ali already knew Norton's style and figured out an effective fight plan. The first fight possibly had to exist for Ali to fight how he did in rematch. So, say, if Norton was an Ali title challenger around 1967, the surprise element of the first encounter would have featured highly, you're forgetting that when taking their meetings into account. Any Ali vs Norton would be a close 'un.

[janitor]

What if Foreman had had Futch in his corner, and we know Joe Louis had "Chapie" Blackburn in his corner who would have seen the same flaw......."somebody" could have been in serious trouble.

Foreman did not listen to his trainers in the rum up to the rumble in the jungle. They advised him to aply a more methodical approach. So it dosnt follow that he would have listened to Futch.

If Ali were to fight Joe Louis then he should shoot Jack Blackburn first because if Louis is to win then Blackburn would be the deciding factor.

[Mendoza]

Personally speaking I think Norton gives near enough any version of Ali fits. It's a styles thang. :yep

Yep. Norton would be a tough match for Ali at any stage of his career.

Norton really hurt Ali in the first fight. I dare say if the fight had been 15 rounds, and not 12, something dramatic would have happened. Ali was tired, had a sore jaw, and was aching from body shots.

[ChrisPontius]

He was in far worse conditioning against a harder puncher who never let him off the hook (literally) in the 12th against Frazier, so i don't think Ali would've had trouble going 15. Or let me put it this way, i doubt something dramatic as a KO would've happened.

[Mendoza]

He was in far worse conditioning against a harder puncher who never let him off the hook (literally) in the 12th against Frazier, so i don't think Ali would've had trouble going 15. Or let me put it this way, i doubt something dramatic as a KO would've happened.

You have to watch the full fight to fully understand the circumstances. Ali was wincing in pain and running out of gas. Norton’s body shots and right hands were doing damage. Norton had a strong close in the12th round. Ali's corner had a look of concern after the final bell sounded. Dr. Fernie Pachecho was in the ring carefully looking over Ali. Ali wasn't celebrating at all, or acting like he won the fight. He was in a bad way. If this was a 15 round fight, Norton might have scored a knockdown or possible TKO. Hence, something dramatic might have happened.

What if the first Ali vs Frazier fight was only 12 rounds? There would be no knockdown.

[ChrisPontius]

Yeah but Frazier was beating the shit out of Ali too, in their first fight. Not just his swollen jaw but also his ribcage, liver and hips.

If Ali-Frazier I went 11 rounds, you'd probably be just as convinced that he wouldn't have survived a 15 round distance.

But he did. And i think he would've against Norton.

[Jbuz]

A prime Ali would have beaten Norton, probably 9-6 or 10-5 IMO. Norton troubled Ali, but you are right, when he was up and moving - Norton had a lot of trouble with him.

I always thought Ali looked pretty bad in all three Norton fights, partially because of Kenny, and partially because fight 1 = broken jaw, fight 3 = shot, fight 2 = couldn't keep up the movement because of his age.

A peak Ali takes Norton without TOO much trouble.

[Bummy Davis]

Norton just had the style to give Ali trouble, a bit of a rythym breaker because of his weird style, an old Archie Moore landed some good ones on Ali with his crab defence and Norton had that crab like defence. Ali did not have the power to rock Norton like every puncher Norton faced

[hobgoblin]

Yeah but Frazier was beating the shit out of Ali too, in their first fight. Not just his swollen jaw but also his ribcage, liver and hips.

If Ali-Frazier I went 11 rounds, you'd probably be just as convinced that he wouldn't have survived a 15 round distance.

But he did. And i think he would've against Norton.

Excellent post

[Mendoza]

Yeah but Frazier was beating the shit out of Ali too, in their first fight. Not just his swollen jaw but also his ribcage, liver and hips.

If Ali-Frazier I went 11 rounds, you'd probably be just as convinced that he wouldn't have survived a 15 round distance.

But he did. And i think he would've against Norton.
Believe it or not at the end of 12 rounds, Norton hurt Ali more than Frazier did. Ali was not out of gas vs Frazier in the 15th. He was running on fumes vs Norton at the end of the 12th. Ali's jaw was broken / sore, he was tired, and Norton was ripping hard body shots. Ali was in such a bad way, he did not taunt Norton late in the fight, and based on Norton's style, could not clinch him much either.

Frazier had a huge 11th round vs Ali, but by the end of the 12 Ali had his legs back. By the end of the 12th vs Norton, Ali had less. You could say Ali did not train hard enough for Norton. Maybe so. I just think had this fight been 15 rounds, Norton does something extra.

Something extra could be defined as a knock down, a round that could be scored 10-8 without a knockdown, a corner stoppage, or perhaps even a TKO win for Norton.

[Bill Butcher]

Norton would have terrible trouble making a prime Ali stand flatfooted (Ken`s only chance imo) for any length of time.

Those 1st 5 rds of fight 2 told me a lot & Ali still didnt look close to the Ali of Williams or Terrell, Kenny wasnt even in the fight at that point & prime Ali had the best legs ever aswell as phenomenal conditioning, that makes big bad trouble for Ken.

Norton would have the odd success but all in all he looks pretty bad in this 1.

Ali clear pts winner
Ken wont be asking for no rematch this time me thinks, pointless.

[prime]

One fundamental problem Ali had against Norton was he was an exasperating headhunter. No body attack which would have opened Norton up much more readily than simple, long, right-hand leads to a cocooned head.

In his prime, Ali could fire rapid-fire shots to the body followed by out-of-nowhere left hooks to the head that would have shaken Norton up.

In his prime, Ali would chart a much more effective fight plan on his toes, not the mano-a-mano, flat-footed, left-right style that played to Norton's strengths.

[Bokaj]

Norton would have terrible trouble making a prime Ali stand flatfooted (Ken`s only chance imo) for any length of time.

Those 1st 5 rds of fight 2 told me a lot & Ali still didnt look close to the Ali of Williams or Terrell, Kenny wasnt even in the fight at that point & prime Ali had the best legs ever aswell as phenomenal conditioning, that makes big bad trouble for Ken.

I don't think Ali could have kept up that pace for too long even in his prime. Norton cut the ring off better than anyone I've ever seen, even though Ali was as fast as ever. So Ali was never really safe in there, even while dancing, and that tires a man. In his prime he could probably have danced for a couple of rounds more, but eventually he would tire and then Norton would have given him a lot of trouble.

Ali would still get an unanimous decision though.

[prime]

I agree with you, Bill. Prime champion Ali never showed evidence of coming in in subpar shape, product of underestimating his opponent.

He would bag enough rounds on his toes, something Norton never solved as late as Round 15 of their 3rd fight, to relatively cruise to victory.

Of course Norton would not go quietly and have his moments, but no more.

Regarding Norton stopping Ali in their first fight had it been a 15 rounder, I seriously doubt it, simply because in that case Ali would have trained for 15 rounds and have enough in the tank for it.

[punchy]

The point is that Norton found a flaw in Ali's style that alowed him to land on Alis jaw consistently.

Good fight plan pure and simple.

All you are really saying Janitor is he was countering of Ali's jab, classic boxing technique.:D

[ThinBlack]

Norton wouldn't trouble Ali as much, but he would still take up to five rounds tops in losing a Unanimous Decision, Prime vs Prime.

[frankenfrank]

"Prime" Ali would have probably gotten stopped by Norton because Norton was stronger and a harder hitter than Jones & Cooper :yep , or at least lost more convincingly 2 Norton .
Just like this very same forum picked d "eroded" Ali 2 stop d very same Doug Jones who actually beat Ali .
"Fast" Ali was never as tough as d mid 1970s Ali .