Classic forum opinions on Joe Clazaghe

[Mendoza]

Outclassing an un-defeated, #1 opponent by a wide margin when you’re 35+ and he's in his 20's is perhaps the hardest thing to do in boxing. Who else has done this? Not Leonard, Louis, Armstrong, Duran, Jofre, and Ali. The lone except I can think of is Fitzsimmons who won the light heavyweight title at age 40 from a very good George Gardiner who was 26.

The only question on Clazaghe was how good his chin was. He proved it was very good last night. I think Calzaghe answered all questions. He is great fighter. He could make you miss, throw over 100+ punches per round, and has unique off tempo style that can target the head or body. It is possible that Calzaghe’s style might be a bit like Harry Greb’s. A fast handed / accurate puncher who can make you miss, take a heck of a shot, and throw 100+ punches a round.

All that is left for Calzaghe is to win a light heavyweight title vs a name fighter, then retire undefeated.

[TBooze]

Like I stated previously he is not a great at the moment because his resume is simply not strong enough as we write.

He is an excellent fighter who has done what he could with the opposition put in front of him. It will hurt his long term legacy IMO that he was not five years older, so he could of fought in the peak 168lbs era of Benn/Eubank/Jones and Toney.

If he is to become a great, he will have to do it the long way and wait 20 years or so, and hope people are impressed with his '0'.

But last night/this morning did make sure he will be everyones Post WWII top 10 British fighters, and one of the five finest Welsh (and Italian) fighters ever.

His true legacy though needs to be written some years down the line, not ten hours after his latest and perhaps most impressive victory.

[McGrain]

Iron chin, no less. I thought a lot of those shots weren't landing flush, and if you watch the slow motion, Calzaghe turned his head at least slightly for all - except one, an overhand right that looked to me like it would have ditched a lot of Heavyweights.

Calzaghe is a great fighter. His combination of awkwardness and physical abilities, not to mention heart and smarts, make him tought for anyone who has laced them up.

I like your Greb analogy.

One thing I disagree with is the margin of the victory. I think i'm alone on the board, but I have it 115-113. Nevertheless, an astonishing performance, and frighteningly, Joe may have 5 years left to him.

He looked mid twenties to me.

[Mendoza]

Iron chin, no less. I thought a lot of those shots weren't landing flush, and if you watch the slow motion, Calzaghe turned his head at least slightly for all - except one, an overhand right that looked to me like it would have ditched a lot of Heavyweights.

Calzaghe is a great fighter. His combination of awkwardness and physical abilities, not to mention heart and smarts, make him tought for anyone who has laced them up.

I like your Greb analogy.

One thing I disagree with is the margin of the victory. I think i'm alone on the board, but I have it 115-113. Nevertheless, an astonishing performance, and frighteningly, Joe may have 5 years left to him.

He looked mid twenties to me.

115-113 is acceptable, but a bit off. I would not hiss at this score. Maybe if you give Kessler a close first round, and another close round it can be done. I still think Clazaghe won 8-4 ( 116-112 ), or 8-3-1 ( 117-112 ). I think the judges performed very well last night. Both Calzaghe and Kessler fought well.

The only one who did not preform well last night was the ref. He let Clazaghe get away with some rabbit punches ( Calzaghe can get down N' dirty like Greb ) and seemed to give Kessler too much time to recover when he was hurt, and in danger of being knocked down.

[McGrain]

I agree with what you say about the ref - although Calzaghe notabley did not complain, and nor did the dignified Kessler.

I did indeed score the first round to Kessler. I was alone in the 8 people in my front room doing this, but you have to go with what you see yourself. Also, I am big in proffessional boxing on scoring for the man who has hurt his opponent. Although I think this is a clear win for Calzaghe, I think that Kessler scored with most of the really big punches. I haven't rewatched the fight, but probably scored a Calzaghe dominated round to Kessler after some big shots.

In fact I think that Kessler's limitations were really exposed by his own great work. He is not a combination puncher - he is a one-two artists with a great line in single uppercuts.

[Mendoza]

I agree with what you say about the ref - although Calzaghe notabley did not complain, and nor did the dignified Kessler.

I did indeed score the first round to Kessler. I was alone in the 8 people in my front room doing this, but you have to go with what you see yourself. Also, I am big in proffessional boxing on scoring for the man who has hurt his opponent. Although I think this is a clear win for Calzaghe, I think that Kessler scored with most of the really big punches. I haven't rewatched the fight, but probably scored a Calzaghe dominated round to Kessler after some big shots.

In fact I think that Kessler's limitations were really exposed by his own great work. He is not a combination puncher - he is a one-two artists with a great line in single uppercuts.

This is where I disagree. Kessler has no problem landing on anyone else in the past. What we saw last night was Clazaghe's rapid pace and brilliant defense making it tough for Kessler. Clazaghe is a speedy lefty who moves his feet and head well, plus he has quick defensive reflexes and awkard angles.

As Kessler says, Clazaghe has a way of spoiling your boxing. He's that good, but unlike many top defensive fighters Clazaghe presses the action, and can take the in-coming.

Kessler did land some of his best stuff that likely would have lead to a TKO over other top ten fighters. Clazaghe took it well, then fired back. In addition to outclassing a skilled and techincaly sound Kessler, Clazaghe took a piece of the un-defeated Kessler's fighting sprit during the fight. I'm not saying Keslser lacks heart. I am saying Clazaghe offense, defense, rapid pace and toughness took some of Kessler's fighting sprit last night.

As for Kessler, he will re-bound. I’d fancy him over Taylor, or Pavlik at 168. If Kessler wants it, he can move into the light heavyweight divison and become a champion there too.

[McGrain]

I agree that Kessler will bounce back.

As far as Joe's technical mastery of Kessler I feel it was partly down to Joe's bodywork - Kessler looked tired to me as well as "shelled up" late on. I think he was hurt a couple of times to the body.

Man I enjoyed that fight.

[Nemesis]

an underated factor of this fight was home advantage, am I being too harsh.

I think for Joe to cement his legacy, he needs to go over to the states (get over that fear of flying) and defeat either Hopkins or Dawson, although i could imagine Calzaghe vs Woods is next up

[achillesthegreat]

The best 168 pounder to ever do it.

[Maxmomer]

I was impressed with his performance. Very impressed. Though, I like Kessler more, he has a cooler nickname.

[TBooze]

I was impressed with his performance. Very impressed. Though, I like Kessler more, he has a cooler nickname.

Hence James Smith Esq. is the Greatest Heavyweight ever;)

[Marciano Frazier]

Outclassing an un-defeated, #1 opponent by a wide margin when you’re 35+ and he's in his 20's is perhaps the hardest thing to do in boxing. Who else has done this? Not Leonard, Louis, Armstrong, Duran, Jofre, and Ali. The lone except I can think of is Fitzsimmons who won the light heavyweight title at age 40 from a very good George Gardiner who was 26.
Carlos Monzon twice defeating Rodrigo Valdez at 35-36 years of age is a similar feat.

The only question on Clazaghe was how good his chin was. He proved it was very good last night. I think Calzaghe answered all questions. He is great fighter. He could make you miss, throw over 100+ punches per round, and has unique off tempo style that can target the head or body. It is possible that Calzaghe’s style might be a bit like Harry Greb’s. A fast handed / accurate puncher who can make you miss, take a heck of a shot, and throw 100+ punches a round.

All that is left for Calzaghe is to win a light heavyweight title vs a name fighter, then retire undefeated.
Yes, at this point, Calzaghe has shown himself to be a genuinely great fighter. He may be one of the greatest fighters of this generation, in fact. How far up the historical ladder he can go is still very much an open question.

[janitor]

Yes, at this point, Calzaghe has shown himself to be a genuinely great fighter. He may be one of the greatest fighters of this generation, in fact. How far up the historical ladder he can go is still very much an open question.
Even if he falls under a bus tomorrow his historical standing could continue to rise as long as his former oponents remained active.

For example since Lennox Lewis retired no less than three of his oponents have gone on to win versions of the heavyweight title thus increasing the significance of those wins.

I dont think we have seen the last of Kessler by any means. It is even possible that Jeff Lacey will go on to win another belt.

[McGrain]

It's going to be nice to be able to discuss Joe v proper ATG fighters without feeling like a fanny because he hasn't beaten anyone. Very cool.

[rydersonthestorm]

You have to be one of the worst posters in history.

[McGrain]

I Am Legend KO6 Hotti_Killer.

[Amsterdam]

It's going to be nice to be able to discuss Joe v proper ATG fighters without feeling like a fanny because he hasn't beaten anyone. Very cool.

But you see, I discussed before JC-MK, because I already knew where his level was at as a dedicated fan.:D

Let's hope for defeating Bad Chad in his last 2-3 fights, that'll seal it, as Chad Dawson is an awesome fighter and will definitely establish himself as a future HOF level fighter at the LHW-CW range.

Likely that Kessler establishes himself a future HOF'er also, Kessler is an awesome fighter as well.

Now,

Is Joe Calzaghe not grade A Supernatural? He defines the meaning of a supernatural fighter.

[rydersonthestorm]

Mcgrain KO1 himself, you think making stupid replies like calzaghe sucks or when rating lennox lewis just saying he has a glass jaw is good.

[McGrain]

But you see, I discussed before JC-MK, because I already knew where his level was at as a dedicated fan.:D

In boxing you HAVE to prove it, to me anyway.

Let's hope for defeating Bad Chad in his last 2-3 fights, that'll seal it, as Chad Dawson is an awesome fighter and will definitely establish himself as a future HOF level fighter at the LHW-CW range.

I want - Hopkins (outdoors on the East coast), then Dawson (Vegas), then Woods, then Frotch, both at home, then retire. Then, you and I can talk my friend!

Likely that Kessler establishes himself a future HOF'er also, Kessler is an awesome fighter as well.

I hope so. I like Kessler, man and fighter. Ran into his limitations v Calzaghe though. Calzaghe finishes people as you know...we shall see. I hope so.

Is Joe Calzaghe not grade A Supernatural? He defines the meaning of a supernatural fighter.

He is a great fighter. A great one. Joe Calzaghe is a great fighter.

[McGrain]

Mcgrain KO1 himself.

:lol:

Beautiful!

[Stonehands89]

Calzaghe, contrary to the commentator's opinion, is a technician. He combines it with unorthodoxy, calculated in-ring risks, and a style that is not supernatural in the least. His style is difficult for a profound reason that most boxers do not grasp:

Kessler said that Calzaghe "spoils your boxing" -and that is an astute observation. Most boxers are like dancers. They are part of a rythym that involves the other man. Calzaghe has built his style on a far more individualistic foundation that is probably rooted in a great ego: he breaks the other man's rythym, throws off timing, and varies his attack with different shots, unorthodox shots from odd places and at odd times, different speed of shots, and angles. All this from a southpaw stance which is difficult to solve by itself. Here, he is reminiscent of Pep and Whitaker. All three force their opponent to play patsy to a style that forces them to think too much and then makes them pay for thinking.

[It is not, however, a style that is impervious to defeat. Kessler knew what he was dealing with, but failed to built a foil for it. But that is for another post. ]

Calzaghe is a ring general, and he has built a rare style on a different foundation than most.

[janitor]

He beats anyone currently fighting from 160-175, and is a strong match for anyone from 160-168 in history, and even some top 175'ers.

Here I agree. There have been many times historicaly when the best light heavyweight out there was what we would call a supermiddleweight today. We have a similar situation here.

[mcvey]

Outclassing an un-defeated, #1 opponent by a wide margin when you’re 35+ and he's in his 20's is perhaps the hardest thing to do in boxing. Who else has done this? Not Leonard, Louis, Armstrong, Duran, Jofre, and Ali. The lone except I can think of is Fitzsimmons who won the light heavyweight title at age 40 from a very good George Gardiner who was 26.

The only question on Clazaghe was how good his chin was. He proved it was very good last night. I think Calzaghe answered all questions. He is great fighter. He could make you miss, throw over 100+ punches per round, and has unique off tempo style that can target the head or body. It is possible that Calzaghe’s style might be a bit like Harry Greb’s. A fast handed / accurate puncher who can make you miss, take a heck of a shot, and throw 100+ punches a round.

All that is left for Calzaghe is to win a light heavyweight title vs a name fighter, then retire undefeated.
Havent seen the fight ,but I can find no metion of Kesslers jab ,which Senya rated as in the top three of all time,was it a factor?

[Jimbo]

Havent seen the fight ,but I can find no metion of Kesslers jab ,which Senya rated as in the top three of all time,was it a factor?

Calzaghe took it away from him and landed significantly more jabs than Kessler.

[Senya13]

He didn't throw his jab often enough for one reason or another, and even those he threw were mostly range-finders. Ijnury or whatever, I don't know. Calzaghe was throwing 2-3 jabs in a row (a-la Muhammad Ali), but rarely landed any of them clean, and almost none of them were hard jabs.

[Mendoza]

He beats anyone currently fighting from 160-175, and is a strong match for anyone from 160-168 in history, and even some top 175'ers. His talent far exceeds his resume though, which is still good, but not among the true ATG's.
This is why Calzaghe needs to fight Hopkins next. Hopkins has never run from a big money fight. If Calzaghe beats Hopkins, his resume will begin to catch up to his talent. I also like to see Calzaghe vs Winky Wright. This would give Calzaghe two wins over likely hall of fame bound fighters.

While Clazaghe's resume certainly lacks big names it has to be the cleanest un-defeated record I've ever seen. Has Calzaghe ever been in danger of getting a draw or losing a fight in his 20+ title defenses? As far as I know, the answer to that question is no. This is where he stands alone. Even Marciano, and Lopez had some close fights. In terms of big wins, I think Calzaghe’s win over Kessler was more impressive than any of Rocky’s or Lopez’s wins when you factor in the dominance of the match, the Kessler being in his prime, and Kessler being in the pound for pound discussion before the fight.

I think Clazaghe was un-defeated as an amatuer too.

[Holmes' Jab]

Calzaghe, contrary to the commentator's opinion, is a technician. He combines it with unorthodoxy, calculated in-ring risks, and a style that is not supernatural in the least. His style is difficult for a profound reason that most boxers do not grasp:

Kessler said that Calzaghe "spoils your boxing" -and that is an astute observation. Most boxers are like dancers. They are part of a rythym that involves the other man. Calzaghe has built his style on a far more individualistic foundation that is probably rooted in a great ego: he breaks the other man's rythym, throws off timing, and varies his attack with different shots, unorthodox shots from odd places and at odd times, different speed of shots, and angles. All this from a southpaw stance which is difficult to solve by itself. Here, he is reminiscent of Pep and Whitaker. All three force their opponent to play patsy to a style that forces them to think too much and then makes them pay for thinking.

[It is not, however, a style that is impervious to defeat. Kessler knew what he was dealing with, but failed to built a foil for it. But that is for another post. ]

Calzaghe is a ring general, and he has built a rare style on a different foundation than most.


A terrific analysis which describes Calzaghes fighting style perfectly. I'm wholeheartedly in agreement with this post. :good

[Senya13]

Has Calzaghe ever been in danger of getting a draw or losing a fight in his 20+ title defenses?
He should have lost the fight with Robin Reid, as he was constantly hit with right hand after right hand, which staggered him, without giving enough hard punches in return.

I think Clazaghe was un-defeated as an amatuer too.
No, he wasn't undefeated, according to British commentators in one of his fights.

[Senya13]

boxing-records ([Only registered and activated users can see links]):
1990: Great-Britain:
- Michael Smyth
1990: E.C. Juniors Usti Nad Labem Welterweight:
- Adrian Opreda (Rou) points

[dmt]

great fighter and he needs tostep up at light-heavy now.

[Bummy Davis]

I had the fight 9-3 Calzage or 8-3-1 if you want to argue, The guy is amazing and the fact that his father knew nothing about boxing, yet this kid has beaten every obstacle put in front of him, he has wanted to fight Jones before Jones brutal Ko loses and he has wanted to fight Hopkins, I have to say Joe is a great fighter...He ruins guys boxing as Kessler said post fight

[Mendoza]

He should have lost the fight with Robin Reid, as he was constantly hit with right hand after right hand, which staggered him, without giving enough hard punches in return.

I did not know this. The fight was a Split decision win.

judge: Robert Byrd 116-111 for Clazaghe
judge: John Duggan 116-111 for Calzaghe
judge: Paul Thomas 111-116 for Reid

I wonder if this fight was one where Reid landed the harder punches, but Clazaghe threw more. A 5 point difference between the judges is nearly un-acceptable.

I did run through Clazaghe’s record at Box rec. They report he has only been down once in his career as a pro.

[Senya13]

British commentators had the fight with Reid a draw 115-115 and they were amazed at that difference in the scores too. Final punchstats were given as
Calzaghe 214/618 (34%)
Reid 220/497 (44%)

[Sizzle]

Havent seen the fight ,but I can find no metion of Kesslers jab ,which Senya rated as in the top three of all time,was it a factor?

As most of us realised, Kessler wouldn't be able to use his jab much because Calzaghe used his quick southpaw jab to perfection, circling the one-dimensional Kessler, cutting the distance at times and working inside, neutralizing his straight punches. Kessler couldn't deal with Calzaghes superb ring generalship. The jab was never going to be a factor.

And BTW, Kesslers jab is not even a current top5, let alone an all time top3. Throwing a punch is about much more than throwing fast, sharp and hard - Timing and landing a punch is another story altogether against a fighter of Joe's quality.

[Senya13]

First round Calzaghe wasn't throwing his jab, and wasn't very effective with his moving in with a flurry either, but Kessler didn't throw that many jabs in this round either. It has nothing to do with Calzaghe's skills. Personally I expected Kessler to throw no less than 40 or 50 jabs per round, he didn't throw anything close to this number even in the first round, where Joe didn't do much.

[Jimbo]

I did run through Clazaghe’s record at Box rec. They report he has only been down once in his career as a pro.

:nono Twice. Once v Byron Mitchell and once v Kabary Salem.

[Sizzle]

First round Calzaghe wasn't throwing his jab, and wasn't very effective with his moving in with a flurry either, but Kessler didn't throw that many jabs in this round either. It has nothing to do with Calzaghe's skills. Personally I expected Kessler to throw no less than 40 or 50 jabs per round, he didn't throw anything close to this number even in the first round, where Joe didn't do much.

It has everything to do with his skills. What do you think it has to do with? Joe being too ugly for Kessler to hit?

In the first round it was apparent that Joe's ring generalship and footspeed would be a big factor in the fight - When Kessler tried to initiate combat Joe would move slightly out of range, come back at an awkward angle and drive Kessler back. It was obvious when Joe had his gloves down around his waist and his head sticking out he was daring Kessler to hit him.

Kessler struggled with the crafty skillful southpaw - He's a one dimensional fighter with a one dimensional punching arsenal. Calzaghe is a multidimensional bag of pugilistic energy.

Kessler wasn't going to throw 40 or 50 jabs around because Joe wouldn't let him. He had the most success when he let Joe come forward and bombed him with uppercuts at midrange, not when he jabbed off of the frontfoot. That was the key for him, establishing the jab, sadly Joe was too good a fighter for him to do that.

[Strangely Brown]

Joe's an excellent fighter by anyone's standards and it's hard to see someone totally dominate him because of his all round ability and ring craftmanship.

[Senya13]

It has everything to do with his skills. What do you think it has to do with? Joe being too ugly for Kessler to hit?
You should watch more fights of Kessler, then you'll have no questions.

[Sizzle]

You should watch more fights of Kessler, then you'll have no questions.

I have watched Kessler Vs Mundine, Beyer, Andrade, possibly his three best opponents and he performed very well in all three fights - But they are not Joe Calzaghe.

[Marciano Frazier]

I did not know this. The fight was a Split decision win.

judge: Robert Byrd 116-111 for Clazaghe
judge: John Duggan 116-111 for Calzaghe
judge: Paul Thomas 111-116 for Reid

I wonder if this fight was one where Reid landed the harder punches, but Clazaghe threw more. A 5 point difference between the judges is nearly un-acceptable.

I did run through Clazaghe’s record at Box rec. They report he has only been down once in his career as a pro. No, actually, Calzaghe was down against both Byron Mitchell and Kabary Salem.

[Senya13]

I have watched Kessler Vs Mundine, Beyer, Andrade, possibly his three best opponents and he performed very well in all three fights - But they are not Joe Calzaghe.
They aren't, but the point is he's doubles and triples his jabs most of the time, Calzaghe was right in front of him, yet he was throwing one jab at a time only. That's not typical for him, whatever reasons, it wasn't because of what Calzaghe was doing to him, personally I saw plenty of opportunities for his jab or at least double it in several cases, without much danger.

[Sizzle]

They aren't, but the point is he's doubles and triples his jabs most of the time, Calzaghe was right in front of him, yet he was throwing one jab at a time only. That's not typical for him, whatever reasons, it wasn't because of what Calzaghe was doing to him, personally I saw plenty of opportunities for his jab or at least double it in several cases, without much danger.

It was because he could barely land the first jab, due to Calzaghe moving out of range. If he found Calzaghe in his range he tended to quickly follow with a right cross bomb, and I don't blame him as his tactic worked, he just wasn't good enough in the end.

Doubling and tripling up on the jab is much more effective against a flatfooted fighter with little counterpunching ability, Calzaghe is anything but.

[Senya13]

We are going in circles. Like I said, I saw plenty of opportunities for doubling and trippling of jab (say, one or two range-finders and one on target). He didn't attempt this even once that I saw it. Calzaghe didn't move out of range, he slipped several of them, but he still stayed within the jabbing range.

[Sizzle]

We are going in circles. Like I said, I saw plenty of opportunities for doubling and trippling of jab (say, one or two range-finders and one on target). He didn't attempt this even once that I saw it. Calzaghe didn't move out of range, he slipped several of them, but he still stayed within the jabbing range.

He did move out of range, he also slipped and cut the range on occassion.

Calzaghe showed he had the better use of the jab, better use of the ring, and virtually bamboozled Kessler who really only had success when Joe rushed inside.

[Senya13]

I disagree. But whatever, the fight is history now. The point only remains that to evaluate a jab it requires more than one fight. Virgil Hill's jab didn't work against Jones. Holmes' jab didn't work against Tyson. Liston's jab didn't work against Clay. One has to look at more than one fight to evaluate fighter's skills. Otherwise we could come to conclusion that Calzaghe is very poor at fighting at mid range (his favorite and best), for example, based on Reid and Bika fights.

[Bill Butcher]

I thought Calzaghe beat Reid even tho he had terrible trouble with his hands in that fight.

Anyway, Joe is the best British fighter ever, Ive always been a JC fan as he can box, fight, is fast, can take a punch, has endless stamina, is exciting & has that true heart & grit of an atg champion, which he is of course.

Hopkins, then wright then retire undefeated as a 2 time champion, lets hope it turns out that way in this most unpredictable of sports.

Ps. Calzaghe is also the best 168 lber ever.

[janitor]

Anyway, Joe is the best British fighter ever,

Lets not get carried away here.

He is still in prety illustrious company in the history of British gloved boxing.