Calzaghe's Old School Training

[youngmonzon]

Joe Calzaghe has often stated that he only does old school style training.

Runs six miles a day on flat surfaces and hills. Hits the pads and bags, spars, and does calisthenics. Pushups, pullups, situps. He has stated that he never does any sort of weight lifting. In other words trains like the all time greats.

With this sort of training, he is never tired, throws 100 plus punches per round, has tremendous speed and is very flexible and mobile. He never loses.

He also consistently defeats fighters that train with so called modern methods. e.g., Kessler lifts weights and uses machines, ditto for Manfredo, Lacy and Bika, etc.

Could it be that all the nonsense about not running long distances and using weights that is espoused on this site by many is just pure nonsense from "trainers" that have never stepped in ring?

[younghypnotiq]

ur a fucking moron idk how to respond to that stupidity. doing tons of pushups and situps etc is just a waist o time and so is running 6 miles

[youngmonzon]

Hmmm. It seems to work for Calzaghe and for other greats like Monzon, Hagler, Robinson, Marciano, etc.

Either way, please express your opinions more clearly and with proper spelling and grammar.

[radianttwilight]

Just cause it worked for Calzaghe doesn't mean it worked/will work for everybody.

[south_paw]

Yeah diffrent things work for diffrent people. Some people can get away without doing roadwork, others can't. Same goes for everything else.

[youngmonzon]

What real boxer gets away with doing no roadwork??

Those that do not run get gassed and KO'd.

[viru§™]

Joe Calzaghe has often stated that he only does old school style training.

Runs six miles a day on flat surfaces and hills. Hits the pads and bags, spars, and does calisthenics. Pushups, pullups, situps. He has stated that he never does any sort of weight lifting. In other words trains like the all time greats.

With this sort of training, he is never tired, throws 100 plus punches per round, has tremendous speed and is very flexible and mobile. He never loses.

He also consistently defeats fighters that train with so called modern methods. e.g., Kessler lifts weights and uses machines, ditto for Manfredo, Lacy and Bika, etc.

Could it be that all the nonsense about not running long distances and using weights that is espoused on this site by many is just pure nonsense from "trainers" that have never stepped in ring?
Load of BS. Everything you've said are components of a boxer, but you forgot skill. For example, Calzaghe could easily get stronger from lifting weights, but for some reason, like many boxers believe, weights are evil.

[younghypnotiq]

well if calzaghe sprinted and lifted weights he would be even better

[viru§™]

well if calzaghe sprinted and lifted weights he would be even better

That's what I mean. He has the skills but he could still improve and lifting weights would help, a lot.

[Glenwils]

Frank Bruno never touched a bag or ran a mile, he was natrually talented.

[Relentless]

calzaghe also dehydrates himself to make weight.

[gregsid]

That's what I mean. He has the skills but he could still improve and lifting weights would help, a lot.

I don't know what you guys are talking about, the kid has some valid points.
Plus, saying that if Calzaghe lifted weighs and sprinted he would be better... I'm sorry to that you can't get much better than him, he the best in the world at his weight class and hes never really had any "close" fights. So apperently his training is the best for him and I'm sure hes tried other methods of training that didn't work as good (aka lifting).

Like one of you mentioned before, different things work better or worse for different people, there is no right or wrong to working out for the individual. Honestly I don't believe in weights either and I don't believe weights will make me stronger in comparision to using only calistenics. But once again that's my opinion and what works best for my body.

[Rakim]

Calzaghe's training routine works perfectly for him, but everyone's different. The fact that he's one of the most skilled boxers of all time helps to balance out the lack of any weight lifting in his routine.

[RDJ]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, the kid has some valid points.
Plus, saying that if Calzaghe lifted weighs and sprinted he would be better... I'm sorry to that you can't get much better than him, he the best in the world at his weight class and hes never really had any "close" fights. So apperently his training is the best for him and I'm sure hes tried other methods of training that didn't work as good (aka lifting).

Like one of you mentioned before, different things work better or worse for different people, there is no right or wrong to working out for the individual. Honestly I don't believe in weights either and I don't believe weights will make me stronger in comparision to using only calistenics. But once again that's my opinion and what works best for my body.

I fully agree.

[RDJ]

What real boxer gets away with doing no roadwork??
James Toney.

[lefty]

Joe Calzaghe has often stated that he only does old school style training.

Runs six miles a day on flat surfaces and hills. Hits the pads and bags, spars, and does calisthenics. Pushups, pullups, situps. He has stated that he never does any sort of weight lifting. In other words trains like the all time greats.

With this sort of training, he is never tired, throws 100 plus punches per round, has tremendous speed and is very flexible and mobile. He never loses.

He also consistently defeats fighters that train with so called modern methods. e.g., Kessler lifts weights and uses machines, ditto for Manfredo, Lacy and Bika, etc.

Could it be that all the nonsense about not running long distances and using weights that is espoused on this site by many is just pure nonsense from "trainers" that have never stepped in ring?

Yes, good post. I'm sure he gets all his explosive and strength training from the bodyweight excercises and when he works the pads, the sprinting and weights are unnecessary because they have nothing to do with boxing. His long runs condition his lungs and his legs. The problem with most boxers is their vanity, they want to look big and ripped up so they justify to themselves these 'modern' training methods and trainers want to seem progressive and 'cutting edge'. The original way worked with Sugar Ray and 15 round fights.

[Relentless]

Yes, good post. I'm sure he gets all his explosive and strength training from the bodyweight excercises and when he works the pads, the sprinting and weights are unnecessary because they have nothing to do with boxing. His long runs condition his lungs and his legs. The problem with most boxers is their vanity, they want to look big and ripped up so they justify to themselves these 'modern' training methods and trainers want to seem progressive and 'cutting edge'. The original way worked with Sugar Ray and 15 round fights.

:patsch what an idiot, i can understand the weight lifting part but sprinting?

what does squats and push ups have to do with boxing? i mean you're not going to be pushing anything with your hands and legs are you? are you going to go in the ring and get down and do sit ups?

do you know the difference between aerobic and anaerobic?

do you even know what anaerobic means?

and how the fuck do you know sugar rays training routine? did you know ray leonard had a gold medal sprinter helping him?

[lefty]

:patsch what an idiot, i can understand the weight lifting part but sprinting?

do you even know what anaerobic means?

and how the fuck do you know sugar rays training routine? did you know ray leonard had a gold medal sprinter helping him?

I was talking about the real Sugar Ray buddy.

Yes i know what anaerobic means, Calzaghe gets his anaerobic training from doing his pad work and bodyweight excercises explosively, as i said.

Maybe learn to read before you start calling people you don't know idiots.

[Relentless]

I was talking about the real Sugar Ray buddy.

Yes i know what anaerobic means, Calzaghe gets his anaerobic training from doing his pad work and bodyweight excercises explosively, as i said.



:rofl :rofl :patsch

please define anaerobic, or atleast tell me what the difference between aerobic and anaerobic is.

'explosive bodyweights' anaerobic:nut

[Kolya]

I like the guys who don't fight arguing over how a certain kind of training helps you fight better or not.

[Relentless]

and please list ray robinsons training routine, did you know at the time the training he was doing was known as 'modern' for that time?

[Relentless]

I like the guys who don't fight arguing over how a certain kind of training helps you fight better or not.

nothing helps you 'fight better'.

[Kolya]

nothing helps you 'fight better'.

Then why do we have a two page argument over whether or not Joe Calzaghe would be better if he lifted or not? after all; it's all individual, different strokes for different folks.

[viru§™]

:rofl :rofl :patsch

please define anaerobic, or atleast tell me what the difference between aerobic and anaerobic is.

That would be kinda pointless, the guys on the Internet...

[viru§™]

Then why do we have a two page argument over whether or not Joe Calzaghe would be better if he lifted or not? after all; it's all individual, different strokes for different folks.
Lifting weights correctly for a specific goal can never be a bad thing.

Those that say weights are bad for boxing don't have a clue.

[lefty]

:rofl :rofl :patsch

please define anaerobic, or atleast tell me what the difference between aerobic and anaerobic is.

'explosive bodyweights' anaerobic:nut

I'm not gonna get all scientific on you but anaerobic is when you aren't getting sufficient oxygen for the excercise, it happens during high intensity excercise. It isn't just confined to when you're doing sprints you dummy, you should keep slapping your head.

Have you ever boxed in a gym? If yes, do you think when you're doing your heavy bag sprints they aren't as effective for your anaerobic system as when you're running? Use your head mate, it's not that difficult to understand, anything done explosively to your limits is anaerobic.

[Relentless]

I'm not gonna get all scientific on you but anaerobic is when you aren't getting sufficient oxygen for the excercise, it happens during high intensity excercise. It isn't just confined to when you're doing sprints you dummy, you should keep slapping your head.

Have you ever boxed in a gym? If yes, do you think when you're doing your heavy bag sprints they aren't as effective for your anaerobic system as when you're running? Use your head mate, it's not that difficult to understand, anything done explosively to your limits is anaerobic.

fuckinhell how old are you 16?

[Kolya]

Lifting weights correctly for a specific goal can never be a bad thing.

Those that say weights are bad for boxing don't have a clue.

I know; I lift weights myself when I have the chance. But I'm assuming Joe is the same as me in that boxing training comes first. And all that said training entails.

[lefty]

Lifting weights correctly for a specific goal can never be a bad thing.

Those that say weights are bad for boxing don't have a clue.

Probably not bad, but not beneficial. There is nothing you can do with weights boxing related that you can't do with bodyweight excercises. Weights target certain areas, you're a boxer so you want your whole bodies strength to be coordinated and balanced.

[enquirer]

Relentless,hazetheman is correct in his comments mostly.....

[lefty]

fuckinhell how old are you 16?

Haha i'd probably resort to that sort of thing if i had nothing to say aswell.

[Relentless]

Relentless,hazetheman is correct in his comments mostly.....

ok mackie shilstone.:good

[Relentless]

Haha i'd probably resort to that sort of thing if i had nothing to say aswell.

really i am not going to argue anymore, this topic has been done and dusted over 500 times.

atleast know what your talking about.

rdj used to be the man!:good

[enquirer]

Relentless,now you are acting like a sixteen year old.
His definition of anaerobic is correct,why you cussing,got nothing correct to say?

[viru§™]

Probably not bad, but not beneficial. There is nothing you can do with weights boxing related that you can't do with bodyweight excercises. Weights target certain areas, you're a boxer so you want your whole bodies strength to be coordinated and balanced.

Like I've said before, some people don't know what they're talking about when it comes to weight training. You're thinking of isolation bodybuilder type lifting, I'm thinking more of full body compound lift routines consisting of full squats, deadlift, pull-ups, dips, bench-press etc.

It's because of people like you (those who don't have a clue) talking this BS that makes everyone think weights are bad.

[Relentless]

Relentless,now you are acting like a sixteen year old.
His definition of anaerobic is correct,why you cussing,got nothing correct to say?

you what?:huh

[lefty]

really i am not going to argue anymore, this topic has been done and dusted over 500 times.

atleast know what your talking about.

rdj used to be the man!:good

Come on now, you don't spark a debate then run off as soon as the other person responds without saying anything, that's abit of a weak move.

[enquirer]

Look folks,some peoples body types benefit with weights and some may not...Its a fact that many atgs never used weights,while many lesser modern boxers use weights and never achieve half of the skills of old school fighters...
Roy jones never used weights up until the ruiz fight and his explosive power and speed was pretty good hey guys?
Genetics also play a big part in what benefits a boxer can get from weight training,or whether he even needs to use weights at all....

[Relentless]

Come on now, you don't spark a debate then run off as soon as the other person responds without saying anything, that's abit of a weak move.

ok then we will continue when i return.:hey

[Relentless]

Look folks,some peoples body types benefit with weights and some may not...Its a fact that many atgs never used weights,while many lesser modern boxers use weights and never achieve half of the skills of old school fighters...
Roy jones never used weights up until the ruiz fight and his explosive power and speed was pretty good hey guys?
Genetics also play a big part in what benefits a boxer can get from weight training,or whether he even needs to use weights at all....

that just sounds so foolish,

i bet guys like fitzsimmons didn't agree with robinson's training routine and thought they were too 'modern'

lesser modern boxers:patsch

you think guys like bernard hopkins, floyd mayweather, wladimir klitschko, lennox lewis, evander holyfield are lesser?

[Kolya]

that just sounds so foolish,

i bet guys like fitzsimmons didn't agree with robinson's training routine and thought they were too 'modern'

lesser modern boxers:patsch

you think guys like bernard hopkins, floyd mayweather, wladimir klitschko, lennox lewis, evander holyfield are lesser?

Than Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Joe Louis, and Archie Moore? Yes. The only one I wouldn't say is Lennox not being on Joe's level; because he might be.

[lefty]

Like I've said before, some people don't know what they're talking about when it comes to weight training. You're thinking of isolation bodybuilder type lifting, I'm thinking more of full body compound lift routines consisting of full squats, deadlift, pull-ups, dips, bench-press etc.

It's because of people like you (those who don't have a clue) talking this BS that makes everyone think weights are bad.

Pull-ups, dips are bodyweight excercises, Bench press has zero to do with boxing as does squats and deadlifts, that motion that you're fast and powerful at when you do these things has nothing to do with throwing a punch, it's making your muscles remember a motion that you're never gonna use in the ring.

Weights aren't bad, they can help some people compensate for certain weaknesses in terms of strength balance throughout their body, but otherwise they are not beneficial for a boxer. Weights aren't gonna help you if you do them but they won't hurt you either unless you over do them and neglect some of your other helpful training.

[lefty]

ok then we will continue when i return.:hey

Then what are you doing with all these posts saying nothing? Come on, get googling and try to find something boy....... Looking forward to your return

[Rakim]

Bench press has zero to do with boxing as does squats and deadlifts, that motion that you're fast and powerful at when you do these things has nothing to do with throwing a punch, it's making your muscles remember a motion that you're never gonna use in the ring.






:rofl :rofl :rofl :patsch

[viru§™]

Look folks,some peoples body types benefit with weights and some may not...Its a fact that many atgs never used weights,while many lesser modern boxers use weights and never achieve half of the skills of old school fighters...
Roy jones never used weights up until the ruiz fight and his explosive power and speed was pretty good hey guys?
Genetics also play a big part in what benefits a boxer can get from weight training,or whether he even needs to use weights at all....

This argument makes absolutly no sense at all. Lifting weights can potentially improve strength, endurance and speed if done correctly, it does not affect actual boxing ability. Choosing a boxer and stating his boxing ability based on if he lifts weights or not is stupid.

[enquirer]

Kolya has very kindly answered you back on your rhethorical question. Im not saying new methods or techniques cannot be used or even improve on some old methods or basic methods,im saying that weights are not always essential to be a great boxer,and that even today many of the greats do not use weights,tell me if morales,barerra or jc chavez used deadlifts and squats?

[lefty]

you think guys like bernard hopkins, floyd mayweather, wladimir klitschko, lennox lewis, evander holyfield are lesser?

Hopkins didn't use weights either as far as i know until he moved to Light-heavy, Guys like Mayweather and Holyfield had no choice but to use weights because they moved up weight divisions.

[viru§™]

Pull-ups, dips are bodyweight excercises, Bench press has zero to do with boxing as does squats and deadlifts, that motion that you're fast and powerful at when you do these things has nothing to do with throwing a punch, it's making your muscles remember a motion that you're never gonna use in the ring.

Please go do some research and try to understand what we're talking about before typing this kind of crap. You seriously have no clue whatsoever.

[lefty]

:rofl :rofl :rofl :patsch

Tell me how i'm wrong? From what i've read in your posts you're a fat dude who doesn't excercise apart from lifting weights every now and then when you feel like, so tell me what you know? We are talking boxing here, i think your toy weight set is calling........

[viru§™]

Kolya has very kindly answered you back on your rhethorical question. Im not saying new methods or techniques cannot be used or even improve on some old methods or basic methods,im saying that weights are not always essential to be a great boxer,and that even today many of the greats do not use weights,tell me if morales,barerra or jc chavez used deadlifts and squats?

I don't care if they do or don't, what I'm saying is anyone can benefit from weight training. Sprinters, boxers, football players, swimmers, marathon runner, martial artists, bodybuilders (obviously), gymnasts, the average guy, whoever you are weight training can be beneficial.

[viru§™]

Tell me how i'm wrong? From what i've read in your posts you're a fat dude who doesn't excercise apart from lifting weights every now and then when you feel like, so tell me what you know? We are talking boxing here, i think your toy weight set is calling........
Um, okay. It's fine to admit you're wrong, you don't have to try and insult the adults...

[lefty]

Please go do some research and try to understand what we're talking about before typing this kind of crap. You seriously have no clue whatsoever.

I know exactly what i'm talking about, there is absolutely no need for any of those excercises, i'm glad you enjoy playing with your weights and getting big and strong but we're talking boxing here, perfecting your technique, timing, co-ordination while shadowboxing or hitting the pads is gonna help your punching power and stamina more than any weights ever will.

[RDJ]

really i am not going to argue anymore, this topic has been done and dusted over 500 times.

atleast know what your talking about.

rdj used to be the man!:good
:lol: :good

[RDJ]

Tell me how i'm wrong? From what i've read in your posts you're a fat dude who doesn't excercise apart from lifting weights every now and then when you feel like, so tell me what you know? We are talking boxing here, i think your toy weight set is calling........
He boxes, he just has a different philosophy regarding weights. I'm just as tired of debating this shit as he is, we've done it a million times. I agree with you btw, I'm in the no-weights camp. Even bodyweight exercise is nothing more than warming up for me, I don't expect anything from it :D

[RDJ]

Please go do some research and try to understand what we're talking about before typing this kind of crap. You seriously have no clue whatsoever.

I think what he means is a large part of punching power is caused by muscle memory. I tend to agree with him.

[watch4sharx]

Alot of this has to do with muscle memory. Most of the time when people lift weights, they are training their muscles to move very slowly, albeit powerfully, over a very specific range of motion. Most of the time that range of motion and speed does not translate well to boxing. I think this is where the idea that weights are detrimental to boxers comes from. For me, this holds very true, I feel much much slower after lifting weights, and going back to shadow boxing. You should get stronger lifting weights, and some exercises like the bench press will increase your punching power, but for me personally, I like very fast hand speed, so I lift weights very sparingly.

[lefty]

I don't care if they do or don't, what I'm saying is anyone can benefit from weight training. Sprinters, boxers, football players, swimmers, marathon runner, martial artists, bodybuilders (obviously), gymnasts, the average guy, whoever you are weight training can be beneficial.

Marathon Runners, martial artists are not gonna get a thing out of lifting weights, Football players need to have the weight on them so weights are necessary, Gymnasts need strength way above their bodyweight so weights are neceassary, the average guy who doesn't excercise is the one who is gonna get the most out of weights.

Regardless we are talking about boxing and strength and how much you can bench press has zero to do with how powerful your punch is or how much stamina you have.

[viru§™]

I think what he means is a large part of punching power is caused by muscle memory. I tend to agree with him.

Of course muscle memory is a huge part of a punch, but saying increasing the strength in your legs, back, chest and arms won't make any difference in punching power is just ignorant.

[viru§™]

Marathon Runners, martial artists are not gonna get a thing out of lifting weights, Football players need to have the weight on them so weights are necessary, Gymnasts need strength way above their bodyweight so weights are neceassary, the average guy who doesn't excercise is the one who is gonna get the most out of weights.

Regardless we are talking about boxing and strength and how much you can bench press has zero to do with how powerful your punch is or how much stamina you have.
Martial artists won't get anything from lifting weights? Strength, speed, endurance, increased bone density, increased flexibility, to name just a few benefits for martial artists.

I don't know if I could be bothered to argue with you to be honest. Like I've said, you have no clue, you're trying to argue points you know nothing about.

[viru§™]

Alot of this has to do with muscle memory. Most of the time when people lift weights, they are training their muscles to move very slowly, albeit powerfully, over a very specific range of motion. Most of the time that range of motion and speed does not translate well to boxing. I think this is where the idea that weights are detrimental to boxers comes from. For me, this holds very true, I feel much much slower after lifting weights, and going back to shadow boxing. You should get stronger lifting weights, and some exercises like the bench press will increase your punching power, but for me personally, I like very fast hand speed, so I lift weights very sparingly.

All the points you've given show you don't know how to weight train for boxing.

[enquirer]

One thing many of you are overloooking is that for some folks weight training does overdevelop muscles that dont need such pronounced size,sometimes getting stronger/more muscular means sacrificing speed,stamina,mobility and power...
Mostly the great boxers named who used weights did so when moving up divisions,and how many boxers can you really say got better as they got bigger muscles or moved up?
Hearns was better at the lower weights,as was jones,pbf ,spinks and tyson was better before he hit the weights and so on.....I would like to know
which boxer became better after using squats,deadlifts and bench presses? Shannon briggs?

[lefty]

Of course muscle memory is a huge part of a punch, but saying increasing the strength in your legs, back, chest and arms won't make any difference in punching power is just ignorant.

You already get all the strength you need from other excercises when you box, as i said before i'm glad your weight training makes you feel strong and good about yourself but it's doing zero for your boxing game, that's if you do box.

[lefty]

One thing many of you are overloooking is that for some folks weight training does overdevelop muscles that dont need such pronounced size,sometimes getting stronger/more muscular means sacrificing speed,stamina,mobility and power...
Mostly the great boxers named who used weights did so when moving up divisions,and how many boxers can you really say got better as they got bigger muscles or moved up?
Hearns was better at the lower weights,as was jones,pbf ,spinks and tyson was better before he hit the weights and so on.....I would like to know
which boxer became better after using squats,deadlifts and bench presses? Shannon briggs?

Excellent post, good point about the great boxers looking better before they went up weight divisions, as guys move up they seem to lose stamina and look stiffer.

[viru§™]

One thing many of you are overloooking is that for some folks weight training does overdevelop muscles that dont need such pronounced size,sometimes getting stronger/more muscular means sacrificing speed,stamina,mobility and power...
Mostly the great boxers named who used weights did so when moving up divisions,and how many boxers can you really say got better as they got bigger muscles or moved up?
Hearns was better at the lower weights,as was jones,pbf ,spinks and tyson was better before he hit the weights and so on.....I would like to know
which boxer became better after using squats,deadlifts and bench presses? Shannon briggs?
Yes, you can gain weight in the form of muscle but only if you eat more. Again, this down to to incorrect training/diet or the individual not knowing what he/she is doing. You can easily maintain your current weight and increase strength.

[BITCH ASS]

Weights TAKE AWAY Speed.

[viru§™]

Weights TAKE AWAY Speed.

Are you joking?

[enquirer]

Yes you can gain strength without adding weight by low reps and/or monitoring the diet whilst normal weight training.....
But i will say this,show me how weight/strength training has made any significant boxer a harder puncher,faster or have more stamina? Examples?

[viru§™]

Yes you can gain strength without adding weight by low reps and/or monitoring the diet whilst normal weight training.....
But i will say this,show me how weight/strength training has made any significant boxer a harder puncher,faster or have more stamina? Examples?
I don't need examples. If you knew anything about human anatomy and physiology and the mechanics of a punch, you'd understand that you could increase punching power with correct weight training.

[enquirer]

Listen,i dont care if your a phd doctor,just give me ONE example of any great boxer improving his punch power,speed or stamina after weight training?
If it were a simple matter of the right weight training improving punch power then a great trainer could easily make dozens of fast and powerful punchers just by his weight training tips.....But i dont see this happening,even with all the 'knowledgable' strength coaches now around the world....
Do mackie shilstone or ****** fortune produce hard fast punchers by the dozen? ER,no......

[RDJ]

My fist is a weight. I train by explosively lifting it to my opponents chin (or a heavy bag but that sounds less e-tough) :D

[viru§™]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You lot clearly have some issue with weights. I don't know if it's plain stupidity or what, but you really need to do some research.

[Relentless]

Listen,i dont care if your a phd doctor,just give me ONE example of any great boxer improving his punch power,speed or stamina after weight training?
If it were a simple matter of the right weight training improving punch power then a great trainer could easily make dozens of fast and powerful punchers just by his weight training tips.....But i dont see this happening,even with all the 'knowledgable' strength coaches now around the world....
Do mackie shilstone or ****** fortune produce hard fast punchers by the dozen? ER,no......

who said weight training increases stamina? but if you want a list of boxers who do weight train i can give you that.

[Relentless]

Hopkins didn't use weights either as far as i know until he moved to Light-heavy, Guys like Mayweather and Holyfield had no choice but to use weights because they moved up weight divisions.

hopkins sed weight training in preperation for winky too and he had to lose weight,

evander holyfield didn't have to, he grew out of the cruiserweight division he would drain himself to make the cruiser limit, he sill weight trains to this day,

mayweather also doesn't have to, he is a natural welterweight but leonard ellerbe has him doing dead lifts squats and bench presses along with a few isolated movements,

kostya tszyu stayed at one division all his career while doing ALOT of weight training.

lUJb-R_6kEY&eurl

[enquirer]

Examples of significant boxers improving punch power,speed and stamina through weights please?
I dont need Your research links,i want real life working examples,not theories.....
Can your links turn chris byrd into a power puncher using weight training? (in fact chris probably did weight train but still not a great puncher,go figure!!!)
Relentless,i know many boxers use weights,but did they improve their speed and power when they did?
Did pbf,spinks,tyson,hearns,jones or hopkins get faster and more powerful after using the weights? No they did not,in fact they just got bigger for the next division but lost speed,definately stamina and maybe power in some cases....

[Relentless]

if bench press has zero to do with boxing dont you think its the same with push ups? push ups target the same muscle group, do you think weighted push ups are better?

[enquirer]

Ah,but relentless,none of the boxers you mentioned improved their speed or power after weight training,with the possible exception of kostya....

[Relentless]

Examples of significant boxers improving punch power,speed and stamina through weights please?
I dont need Your research links,i want real life working examples,not theories.....
Can your links turn chris byrd into a power puncher using weight training? (in fact chris probably did weight train but still not a great puncher,go figure!!!)
Relentless,i know many boxers use weights,but did they improve their speed and power when they did?
Did pbf,spinks,tyson,hearns,jones or hopkins get faster and more powerful after using the weights? No they did not,in fact they just got bigger for the next division but lost speed,definately stamina and maybe power in some cases....

you are thinking of bodybuilding, bodybuilding is different than weight training, kostya tszyu stayed at one division all his career while weight training, hatton also weight trained his entire career while staying at 140.

and no weight training does not build stamina, fuckinhell do i even have to be telling you that?

[RDJ]

mayweather also doesn't have to, he is a natural welterweight but leonard ellerbe has him doing dead lifts squats and bench presses along with a few isolated movements

I think that's because Ellerbe gets to be the spotter :yep

[Relentless]

Ah,but relentless,none of the boxers you mentioned improved their speed or power after weight training,with the possible exception of kostya....

how would you know that?

did you compare them with a speedometer?

[viru§™]

if bench press has zero to do with boxing dont you think its the same with push ups? push ups target the same muscle group, do you think weighted push ups are better?

To be honest I think the guy's to retarded to understand.

[RDJ]

To be honest I think the guy's to retarded to understand.

And here's the reason why the previous 600 debates were lots of fun :lol:

[Relentless]

the old days were better, we didn't have to argue with kids, but instead fags.

[viru§™]

Ah well, it wasted a bit of time.

[RDJ]

My take on it is you cannot fool nature. By lifting heavy objects your body adapts to lifting heavy objects. By punching your body adapts to punching. Lifting may have its use in boxing since boxing is more than just punching. Handling your opponent if he's a clincher, or perhaps if you're a Ruiz yourself.

I punch the heavy bag, I shadowbox (not every punch connects), etc. This builds my muscle memory, stamina, speed, strength, all at the same time. It doesn't get much better than that. All those theories are nice, but I trust nature more than some theory.

I've been a software engineer, what I know about theories and models is that if just one small variable is missing, they're 100% bullshit.

[Relentless]

but who is saying you have to replace all that? strength training is a supplement to your actual training, imo it should be done once a week,


surely rdj you agree with sprinting?

that kid says sprinting has nothing to do with boxing, but what does running 6 miles have to do with it?

[Relentless]

and haze you do know chad dawson has trained (probably still does) with john scully and ross enamait.

[enquirer]

You can see that the guys who weight train and move up tend to get slower by just watching them,dont be silly by saying you need a stopwatch to get that....
I didnt claim that weight training increases stamina,i know however that it decreases the stamina of lots....

I agree that weight training whilst maintaining the same weight can have some merit,but again i would like to see any examples of boxers IMPROVING after weight training,or is it impossible to see improvements in a boxer without a stopwatch relentless?
ps; great post rdj!
pps; correct weight training as a supplement wont work for everyone,same as pressups/body weight exercises wont work for everyone in improving speed/punch power,weight training might help in the clinch in some cases.....

[MrSmall]

Obviously everyone here thinks lifting weights is bodybuilding, 8-12 reps, get that good old pump going.
Noone tried powerlifting? Westside Barbell?
Try a good dynamic bench day and tell me that ain't explosive!

[Relentless]

You can see that the guys who weight train and move up tend to get slower by just watching them,dont be silly by saying you need a stopwatch to get that....
I didnt claim that weight training increases stamina,i know howevet that it decreases the stamina of lots....

I agree that weight training whilst maintaining the same weight can have some merit,but again i would like to see any examples of boxers IMPROVING after weight training,or is it impossible to see improvements in a boxer without a stopwatch relentless?

weight training does not decrease stamina, lack of conditioning does, and which boxer are you talking about going slower after weight training?

STOP THINKING BODYBUILDING!!

and what the fuck are you on about a stopwatch for boy?

[viru§™]

You can see that the guys who weight train and move up tend to get slower by just watching them,dont be silly by saying you need a stopwatch to get that....
I didnt claim that weight training increases stamina,i know howevet that it decreases the stamina of lots....


Yet again this is down to bad/incorrect ways of weight training.

[RDJ]

but who is saying you have to replace all that? strength training is a supplement to your actual training, imo it should be done once a week,


surely rdj you agree with sprinting?

that kid says sprinting has nothing to do with boxing, but what does running 6 miles have to do with it?

I agree with sprinting the same way I agree with weights. It's suboptimal. It will improve fitness, but not as good as specific exersize would. You are right, running has shit to do with boxing either. I quit running because of shit knees, but my stamina has never been better for some reason. If you run too much you may lose power in the legs, or mess up some other balance. Like I said I'm not arrogant enough to think I know everything, my body knows it much better.

I think you have a healthy approach to the weights issue, once a week sounds just fine. If you do it in between technical boxing sessions (as opposed to conditioning drills and the likes) it does not intervene with actual boxing training. And as long as you stick to compound lifts it can be beneficial.

[RDJ]

Obviously everyone here thinks lifting weights is bodybuilding, 8-12 reps, get that good old pump going.

That does hinder the discussion somewhat indeed.

Noone tried powerlifting? Westside Barbell?
Try a good dynamic bench day and tell me that ain't explosive!

Explosive compared to regular lifting? Yes. Explosive compared to a punch? No.

[enquirer]

Read my posts for the stopwatch reference,Look at nearly all the guys that moved up,they all lost speed,stamina and sometimes power...
And the heavweights that weight train have less stamina and punch output than guys of yesteryear...
As for powerlifting,well have you guys examples of any guys that improved power/speed after powerlifting,i understand the difference between body building,powerlifting and olympic lifting,but you guys dont seem to understand that weights in boxing are not correlated to increases in speed/power in punching in the same way that it has been proved/shown in disciplines like 100 m sprinting that weight training is beneficial......

[Relentless]

Read my posts for the stopwatch reference,Look at nearly all the guys that moved up,they all lost speed,stamina and sometimes power...
And the heavweights that weight train have less stamina and punch output than guys of yesteryear...
As for powerlifting,well have you guys examples of any guys that improved power/speed after powerlifting,i understand the difference between body building,powerlifting and olympic lifting,but you guys dont seem to understand that weights in boxing are not correlated to increases in speed/power in punching in the same way that it has been proved/shown in disciplines like 100 m sprinting that weight training is beneficial......

fuckin hell!! what about a stopwatch?!!!!!

heavyweight dont have bad stamina because of weight training but because of NEGLECTING CONDITIONING!

wladimir klitschko is probably the most conditioned heavyweight we have today and he weight trains, and WHO went up in weight and became slower and lost power, WHO!?

it may also have something to do with following a hypertrophy routine.

[ralphc]

Joe Calzaghe has often stated that he only does old school style training.

Runs six miles a day on flat surfaces and hills. Hits the pads and bags, spars, and does calisthenics. Pushups, pullups, situps. He has stated that he never does any sort of weight lifting. In other words trains like the all time greats.

With this sort of training, he is never tired, throws 100 plus punches per round, has tremendous speed and is very flexible and mobile. He never loses.

He also consistently defeats fighters that train with so called modern methods. e.g., Kessler lifts weights and uses machines, ditto for Manfredo, Lacy and Bika, etc.

Could it be that all the nonsense about not running long distances and using weights that is espoused on this site by many is just pure nonsense from "trainers" that have never stepped in ring?


There really is no such thing as "modern training methods" in boxing because modern training has no "method" whatsoever. All they have is a hodge podge of silly ass ideas they read about in some stupid bodybuilding magazine. When boxers have to dry out to the tune of 15 or 20 pounds for a fight, that has to tell you everything you need to know about the foolishness of their training.

[viru§™]

Read my posts for the stopwatch reference,Look at nearly all the guys that moved up,they all lost speed,stamina and sometimes power...
And the heavweights that weight train have less stamina and punch output than guys of yesteryear...
As for powerlifting,well have you guys examples of any guys that improved power/speed after powerlifting,i understand the difference between body building,powerlifting and olympic lifting,but you guys dont seem to understand that weights in boxing are not correlated to increases in speed/power in punching in the same way that it has been proved/shown in disciplines like 100 m sprinting that weight training is beneficial......

I think you're having problems understanding very basic things here. Weight training is a very small component of a boxer, if someone wants a bit more strength get him/here lifting weights, doing this will not make them a better boxer but it will make them stronger and or faster and or have improved endurance. Now, do you understand?

[ralphc]

I think you're having problems understanding very basic things here. Weight training is a very small component of a boxer, if someone wants a bit more strength get him/here lifting weights, doing this will not make them a better boxer but it will make them stronger and or faster and or have improved endurance. Now, do you understand?



We understand you are talking nonsense because you have no proof that it has ever happened.

[viru§™]

We understand you are talking nonsense because you have no proof that it has ever happened.
What ever happened? I'm not talking about a specific event, I'm talking about the way the human body reacts to increased resistance. So you don't believe lifting weights can potentially improve strength, speed and endurance?

[RDJ]

The question isn't "will lifting improve strength" because it probably will. The question is "will it improve strength more than sports specific training" (bag work in this case). And then there's speed which is more questionable since a punch is much faster than whatever lift you can come up with. It's like putting a truck engine in a race car and expect it to be faster because it has more horsepower.

My conclusion is yes it may help you but you would have been better off doing regular boxing workout.

[youngmonzon]

Frank Bruno never touched a bag or ran a mile, he was natrually talented.

Frank Bruno was a muscle bound freak. He was quite possibly the worst heavyweight "champion' ever. He also consistently gassed in the later stages of fights and was KO'd. See matches with Witherspoon and Bone Crusher Smith as examples.

He needed old school training in every way.

[youngmonzon]

James Toney.

Fat Slob Toney lost many key fights due to stamina issues. He needs roadwork, desperately.

[dangerousity]

Freddie Roach former strength and conditioning coach ****** Fortune was a former Powerlifting champion. He was the one who managed Pacmans strength and conditioning...did a pretty good job to me. Hatton also does weights and he uses his strength very well in the ring aswell as keep up a great stamina.

[RDJ]

Fat Slob Toney lost many key fights due to stamina issues. He needs roadwork, desperately.

Well in his last fights you are right, but prior to that Toney never had stamina issues. Even at cruiserweight. I heard on many occasions that all James does is sparring, he's very lazy in other disciplines.

He lost some fights because he's too defensive sometimes. I don't think he does that to rest. I have the same tendency while sparring, if it doesn't connect I'm not bothered, but a judge sees it as aggression and rewards it.

[youngmonzon]

:rofl :rofl :patsch

please define anaerobic, or atleast tell me what the difference between aerobic and anaerobic is.

'explosive bodyweights' anaerobic:nut

Regardless of the definitions, Calzaghe's old school workouts get him what he needs, just like every great fighter.

Does any one really believe there have been better fighters than Ali, Monzon, Hagler, Calzaghe, Joe Louis, Marciano, Basilio, Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Bill Conn, etc.?

All these guys ran long slow distance, did calisthenics instead of weights AND had plenty of explosiveness and never got tired over 15 rounds.

Case in point, when Emmauel Steward switched W. Klitschko to 6 miles of road work a day, his fight stamina improved drastically.

[youngmonzon]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

You lot clearly have some issue with weights. I don't know if it's plain stupidity or what, but you really need to do some research.

Ross had one amateur fight, which he LOST! Enough said.

[viru§™]

Ross had one amateur fight, which he LOST! Enough said.

Again, boxing ability, nothing to do with lifting weights.

[Relentless]

Ross had one amateur fight, which he LOST! Enough said.

:lol: no he never, he had quiet a lot of amateur fights, his friend john the iceman scully posts here, just ask him.

and for your information if you dont know who the iceman is he is a former world title contender who has also sparred greats such as roy jones and james toney, he is now a trainer and ross enamait is the conditioning coach for most of his fighters.

[Relentless]

Case in point, when Emmauel Steward switched W. Klitschko to 6 miles of road work a day, his fight stamina improved drastically.

wrong! are you making this stuff up as you go along?

steward has nothing to do with wladimir klitshcko's conditioning routines, steward helps him with his boxing training, fritz sdunek (wlads old trainer) writes wlads strength and conditioning training drills.

[youngmonzon]

wrong! are you making this stuff up as you go along?

steward has nothing to do with wladimir klitshcko's conditioning routines, steward helps him with his boxing training, fritz sdunek (wlads old trainer) writes wlads strength and conditioning training drills.

Not making it up!

Emmauel Steward stated this during a recent HBO telecast. Steward also required long runs from Lennox Lewis in preparation for his title fights. Steward believes in the old school methods. There was a post recently with all these quotes from him. Do your home work.

[youngmonzon]

:lol: no he never, he had quiet a lot of amateur fights, his friend john the iceman scully posts here, just ask him.

and for your information if you dont know who the iceman is he is a former world title contender who has also sparred greats such as roy jones and james toney, he is now a trainer and ross enamait is the conditioning coach for most of his fighters.

Ross has stated himself he had just one fight, which he lost. Check it out on his website in the forum section. If he had more, produce the official record!

[Relentless]

Ross has stated himself he had just one fight, which he lost. Check it out on his website in the forum section. If he had more, produce the official record!

no he never!

ross stated many times he has fought in different weight classes many times, and anyway why would he put himself down like that on his own website?

please post a link, or how about this, i get ross to post here or we can pm iceman and ask him? your call.

[Relentless]

Not making it up!

Emmauel Steward stated this during a recent HBO telecast. Steward also required long runs from Lennox Lewis in preparation for his title fights. Steward believes in the old school methods. There was a post recently with all these quotes from him. Do your home work.

you are so obviously making this up as you go along:rofl

post link or STFU!:nut

[gregsid]

Yeah, so after skimming over the last 7 pages of posts (which mostly contained pointless rambling)... I just got to say your all, right and wrong.
Like I said before, different things work for different people, for better or for worse. Benching might help one boxer more than another, pushups might help one boxer more than the guy benching. There is no exercise that is totally useless for boxing, some just might be more helpful than others. Who is to say?

[Relentless]

Yeah, so after skimming over the last 7 pages of posts (which mostly contained pointless rambling)... I just got to say your all, right and wrong.
Like I said before, different things work for different people, for better or for worse. Benching might help one boxer more than another, pushups might help one boxer more than the guy benching. There is no exercise that is totally useless for boxing, some just might be more helpful than others. Who is to say?

thats it close the thread!

[youngmonzon]

Yeah, so after skimming over the last 7 pages of posts (which mostly contained pointless rambling)... I just got to say your all, right and wrong.
Like I said before, different things work for different people, for better or for worse. Benching might help one boxer more than another, pushups might help one boxer more than the guy benching. There is no exercise that is totally useless for boxing, some just might be more helpful than others. Who is to say?

Weightlifting is relatively useless for boxing. Bodyweight exercises are more functional and applicable and more than provide enough strength and endurance.

[viru§™]

I couldn't be bothered to tell you the same thing over and over and over. Just close the thread.

[younghypnotiq]

Lifting weights correctly for a specific goal can never be a bad thing.

Those that say weights are bad for boxing don't have a clue.

not true what if your training to become weaker or something

[younghypnotiq]

I know exactly what i'm talking about, there is absolutely no need for any of those excercises, i'm glad you enjoy playing with your weights and getting big and strong but we're talking boxing here, perfecting your technique, timing, co-ordination while shadowboxing or hitting the pads is gonna help your punching power and stamina more than any weights ever will.

if you liftn weights you wil haevea shit load of more time then if you did pushups etc.

[RDJ]

Let's put it this way. If you run 20 miles a day your running is bad for boxing. It would be good if you trained to be a marathon runner. Does that make running bad? No ofcourse not. Let's not get carried away with it. Strength is important, but doing it three or four times a week is ridiculous. Unless your name is Floyd Mayweather acquiring skills should be your number one priority. The good thing is that while you are doing that, strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, agility, muscle memory, basically everything you need for boxing, will improve at the same time.

If you lift weights once a week that's fine, you can't do sport specific stuff all the time. Whether it will do good depends on how you do it, but as long as it's in moderation it certainly won't do any harm.

DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing anyone in particular of training like a bodybuilder or a marathon runner.

[viru§™]

Let's put it this way. If you run 20 miles a day your running is bad for boxing. It would be good if you trained to be a marathon runner. Does that make running bad? No ofcourse not. Let's not get carried away with it. Strength is important, but doing it three or four times a week is ridiculous. Unless your name is Floyd Mayweather acquiring skills should be your number one priority. The good thing is that while you are doing that, strength, muscular endurance, cardiovascular endurance, agility, muscle memory, basically everything you need for boxing, will improve at the same time.

If you lift weights once a week that's fine, you can't do sport specific stuff all the time. Whether it will do good depends on how you do it, but as long as it's in moderation it certainly won't do any harm.

DISCLAIMER: I am not accusing anyone in particular of training like a bodybuilder or a marathon runner.

There's no arguing with that post.


Thread closed... :good

[lefty]

Some great posts here by rdj, enquirer, young monzon, I think the issue has been settled since the pro-weightlifting side couldn't come back with any examples of fighters improving with weights, they had to bring up a guys name who isn't even a boxer to try and back up their point.

And to the guy talking about Kostya tszyu, when he was an amateur he was alot faster and fluid, when he turned pro and used weights he stiffened up, slowed down, acquired injuries and had a relatively short career, maybe those things would've happened anyway but i don't think he was a good example.

[ralphc]

Yeah, so after skimming over the last 7 pages of posts (which mostly contained pointless rambling)... I just got to say your all, right and wrong.
Like I said before, different things work for different people, for better or for worse. Benching might help one boxer more than another, pushups might help one boxer more than the guy benching. There is no exercise that is totally useless for boxing, some just might be more helpful than others. Who is to say?



In 1969 almost nobody in boxing was pumping iron. By 1981 at least 50 of boxers were into weight lifting. These days it is almost 100%. Since the 1960's all I have seen is a deterioration in boxing skills, fitness and performance. If boxers today took their training as seriously as you take your skipping, boxing would be a very different sport.

[Filmnpuck]

Sometimes I fart when I sneeze. In fact, I try to do this at least ten times a day. I think of it as the ultimate core workout, working every muscle from my nose to my anus at once. All in all I feel it will make me a better boxer.

[lefty]

Sometimes I fart when I sneeze. In fact, I try to do this at least ten times a day. I think of it as the ultimate core workout, working every muscle from my nose to my anus at once. All in all I feel it will make me a better boxer.


:rofl :rofl :lol:

[Rakim]

Tell me how i'm wrong? From what i've read in your posts you're a fat dude who doesn't excercise apart from lifting weights every now and then when you feel like, so tell me what you know? We are talking boxing here, i think your toy weight set is calling........




:lol: I got owned. Virus, Gregsid, and RDJ have given a lot of valid points, if you won't believe those guys, there's no chance of me and my podgy ol' ass convincing you. Let me get back to those toy weights now........

[Relentless]

looks like i dont have it in me anymore, all the debates with pudding oz puncher and others has weakened me!

p.s hazetheman if you are talking about ross enamait you do know he has been a conditioning coach for dawson right? he still writes dawsons routines.

[enquirer]

I have even heard a few pros say that when they stop weight training their stamina improves,some pros have also said they felt tight and sore when weight training before a fight.....tyrell biggs,mike spinks and michael gomez all said these things,and guys like moseley,briggs,vargas and co seem to have been hindered by weight training,in fact moseley stated he felt light on his feet for the first time in years at 147 v collazo,as opposed to the 154 v winky where he was moving serious iron....I suppose theoretically weight training could improve a fighter,but in practice this hasnt happened at the world level...
I used to love pumping iron and thought it would improve my boxing,but it didnt and used to lessen my speed,stamina and flexibility...Sometimes even calisthenics,running and chins can even overdevelop the wrong muscles,i dont think the old school way is perfect by any means either....
The bottom line is you have to try what works for you,and be careful with overdeveloping the wrong muscles with certain training methods,you improve your boxing by boxing.......

[Relentless]

at 147 shane mosley still lifts, he has been lifting since his leightweight days, again strength training dont decrease stamina, its lack of conditioning.

[Relentless]

I have even heard a few pros say that when they stop weight training their stamina improves,some pros have also said they felt tight and sore when weight training before a fight.....tyrell biggs,mike spinks and michael gomez all said these things,and guys like moseley,briggs,vargas and co seem to have been hindered by weight training,in fact moseley stated he felt light on his feet for the first time in years at 147 v collazo,as opposed to the 154 v winky where he was moving serious iron....I suppose theoretically weight training could improve a fighter,but in practice this hasnt happened at the world level...
I used to love pumping iron and thought it would improve my boxing,but it didnt and used to lessen my speed,stamina and flexibility...Sometimes even calisthenics,running and chins can even overdevelop the wrong muscles,i dont think the old school way is perfect by any means either....
The bottom line is you have to try what works for you,and be careful with overdeveloping the wrong muscles with certain training methods,you improve your boxing by boxing.......

another thing is you were pumping iron, basically you were bodybuilding, neglecting conditioning, weight training is a small portion of a boxers training usually done only once a week.

[Relentless]

Some great posts here by rdj, enquirer, young monzon, I think the issue has been settled since the pro-weightlifting side couldn't come back with any examples of fighters improving with weights, they had to bring up a guys name who isn't even a boxer to try and back up their point.

And to the guy talking about Kostya tszyu, when he was an amateur he was alot faster and fluid, when he turned pro and used weights he stiffened up, slowed down, acquired injuries and had a relatively short career, maybe those things would've happened anyway but i don't think he was a good example.

great info!?

the only ones with decent info were rdj and greg, young monzon and enquirer are clowns.

[enquirer]

Relentless,i was in full boxing training and sparring when i was 'pumping iron'.....you really make assumptions dont you......Were you in the gym while i trained?
The fact is you are one of those people that tries to sell the weights are great/creatine should be used by all boxers type of guys,yet you fail to bring ONE good example of a significant boxer improving his boxing through weights.....Oh sorry,ross the boss!!!!
Really your not strong on logic or real life examples are you?
If your weight training/supplements are so good i expect to see you as a world renowned trainer,a greatly improved boxer or ANY examples of boxers improving their game through lifting? Ive asked you multiple times and you still havent showed me any examples,while i have named several guys who got slower after lifting....
Why dont you actually digest the facts and examples and then make an informed objective opinion,instead of fitting the facts to your preconceived/prejudiced viewpoint......And the childish cussing/sniping/arrogance just shows your maturity and the fact we have struck a nerve by your inability to show any real life examples that weight training works significantly for boxers.....

[Relentless]

Relentless,i was in full boxing training and sparring when i was 'pumping iron'.....you really make assumptions dont you......Were you in the gym while i trained?
The fact is you are one of those people that tries to sell the weights are great/creatine should be used by all boxers type of guys,yet you fail to bring ONE good example of a significant boxer improving his boxing through weights.....Oh sorry,ross the boss!!!!
Really your not strong on logic or real life examples are you?
If your weight training/supplements are so good i expect to see you as a world renowned trainer,a greatly improved boxer or ANY examples of boxers improving their game through lifting? Ive asked you multiple times and you still havent showed me any examples,while i have named several guys who got slower after lifting....
Why dont you actually digest the facts and examples and then make an informed objective opinion,instead of fitting the facts to your preconceived/prejudiced viewpoint......And the childish cussing/sniping/arrogance just shows your maturity and the fact we have struck a nerve by your inability to show any real life examples that weight training works significantly for boxers.....

and i've told you many times weight training does not make you a better fighter, it improves ONE aspect of your game,

but if you want an example of a fighter who benefited to weight training look at ricky hatton, and no you have not given me any examples of boxers who got slower by weight training, you just gave me your opinion of them, fact is michael spinks never said that, he had mackie shiilstone helping him and to this day he praises mackie shilstone and recommends him.

every single time you reply with 'so and so lost stamina' you lose stamina by neglecting conditioning not lifting weights, do you see manny pacquaio or miguel cotto lose stamina?

what do you think of strength training with bodyweights? one handed push ups, handstand pushups, weighted pull ups?

[Relentless]

if you're going to give me your opinion on who you 'think' slowed down after weight training then save it, your opinion means very little to me.

[enquirer]

Well your opinions on hatton,cotto and pac dont impress me either.....:smoke
As for hatton allegedly benefiting after weights (even though i asked for a boxer IMPROVING after weights,i bet hatton benefits from a few budweisers as well pal...) well where is your proof for this? Or is it your opinion?
Also how come it took you so many pages to pull ONE boxer out of your arse (and a poor unproven example at that.) ,you had to really think hey? Listen,its obvious you cant really give me any real examples of boxers improving after weights can you?
As for any type of strength training it all depends on the body type of the one doing it,and the muscles that are built up....sometimes even chins,weighted pressups and such like are not actually helpful to some physiques in relation to boxers......
Mackie shilstone and guys like this are great at packing on muscle bodyweight,yes,but making boxers better,no.....
There is no example in the history of world class boxing of a guy making big improvemnets with weight training,olympic sprinting yes,boxing,no....
And as for weight trainig improving ASPECTS of boxing,well tell me what these ASPECT are,the clinch,even that is debateable? Bottom line is that many of the benefits of weights dont necessarily cross over into boxing performance,or improve boxing punch power/speed.....

[Relentless]

you are going over what i already told you, weight training doesn't improve boxing skills!!!

[enquirer]

I know you are trying to say it doesnt improve boxing skills,but you are promoting the idea that it can be improve/benefit a boxer in some way arent you? Otherwise why post at all on this topic?
I know many think that by improving strength they will make the boxer more able to generate power and speed when they combine the weights with their normal boxing workout,or that it will benefit them in the clinch,but where is the evidence for this,anyone?
What strength and conditioning coaches need to realise is that boxing is a very specific and unusual sport that doesnt translate well in terms of weight training.....Heck most anatomists and weight coaches do not really know much about boxing or what it takes to punch hard and fast....You can develop any trainee in theory to have the 'perfect' weights program developed by mackie,ross and ****** and it still dont mean they will be able to punch fast or hard.......

[viru§™]

And as for weight trainig improving ASPECTS of boxing,well tell me what these ASPECT are,the clinch,even that is debateable?

For the 5th time, weight training can potentially increase strength, speed and stamina allowing you to punch harder to a degree and maintain a high pace for a long period of time. Nobody needs examples, this is what happens to the body as it adapts.

You keep on going on about bodyweight training, all weight training is is bodyweight with added weight, how can that possibly be bad?

[Relentless]

For the 5th time, weight training can potentially increase strength, speed and stamina allowing you to punch harder to a degree and maintain a high pace for a long period of time. Nobody needs examples, this is what happens to the body as it adapts.

You keep on going on about bodyweight training, all weight training is is bodyweight with added weight, how can that possibly be bad?

that is misleading strength training does nothing for stamina.

[viru§™]

that is misleading strength training does nothing for stamina.
You ever done circuit training? Check out some of the Crossfit workouts, theres no way you could deny they build stamina.

[enquirer]

Listen,i know the theory,but give me a working example hey? Or can we just make statements withour proof now?
And i will tell you what can be bad about weights/resistance training,it can slow you down,overdevelop certain muscles,drop your stamina,make you gain weight,etc...... And i dont keep on going on about bodyweight training,i stated that some calisthenics can also lead to undesirable effects,it all depends on the effects that the certain exercise has on a certain persons body....Weights/resistance may be good for developing a youngster,or to bring up lagging bodyparts/weaknesses,but this thing about it potentially imroving,power,stamina etc is spurious at the top level and has no basis in real life.....Boxing is not grid iron,sprinting or wrestling......

[viru§™]

Listen,i know the theory,but give me a working example hey? Or can we just make statements withour proof now?
And i will tell you what can be bad about weights/resistance training,it can slow you down,overdevelop certain muscles,drop your stamina,make you gain weight,etc...... And i dont keep on going on about bodyweight training,i stated that some calisthenics can also lead to undesirable effects,it all depends on the effects that the certain exercise has on a certain persons body....Weights/resistance may be good for developing a youngster,or to bring up lagging bodyparts/weaknesses,but this thing about it potentially imroving,power,stamina etc is spurious at the top level and has no basis in real life.....Boxing is not grid iron,sprinting or wrestling......
The things you've listed for the 3rd time I'll give the same reply for the 3rd time; that's all down to not knowing what you're doing. Of course you'll get bigger if you lift heavy weights and eat more, but why would a boxer do that? Think about it...

Proof of my theory, what that picking up weights makes you stronger? Go to a gym, watch a power lifting competition, stongman events.

Like I've said over and over, weights can potentially make you stronger, faster and have more endurance I've never said anything about making you a better boxer. I think you don't even know what you're trying to argue.

[enquirer]

Listen,nobody denies that weights will make you stronger at,guess what,lifting weights.....But that 'strength' does not always translate into potential for increasing speed,stamina and power or even clinch strength on the boxing front as boxing is not dependent on the kind of strength gained from lifting weights.....
I will give you an example hey, being good/excellent at lat pulldowns does not necessarily mean you will be good/excellent at chin ups.....Any knowledgable trainer will know this as the movements though very similiar are not really engaging the same factors....Same with boxing,you can stimulate the muscles you think will benefit a boxer by weights,but sometimes that wont make the boxer any faster,more powerful or increase his stamina.....
The bottom line is it depends on what EFFECTS the weights have on a given boxer,if the effects carry over then yes that particular boxer may benefit from weights,but there are many that do not benefit and in fact slow themselves down......
ps; you think that the guy with the better bench will be better in the clinch? Well holy bulled tyson in the clinches and they prob bench the same,lewis was stronger than tyson yet tyson benches more than him....Mosley allegedly benches 350 but was he stronger than winky who probably cant bench 220? There are many examples like this in boxing where prowess in the weights room meant nothing in the ring....

[viru§™]

Listen,nobody denies that weights will make you stronger at,guess what,lifting weights.....But that 'strength' does not always translate into potential for increasing speed,stamina and power or even clinch strength on the boxing front as boxing is not dependent on the kind of strength gained from lifting weights.....
I will give you an example hey, being good/excellent at lat pulldowns does not necessarily mean you will be good/excellent at chin ups.....Any knowledgable trainer will know this as the movements though very similiar are not really engaging the same factors....Same with boxing,you can stimulate the muscles you think will benefit a boxer by weights,but sometimes that wont make the boxer any faster,more powerful or increase his stamina.....
The bottom line is it depends on what EFFECTS the weights have on a given boxer,if the effects carry over then yes that particular boxer may benefit from weights,but there are many that do not benefit and in fact slow themselves down......
ps; you think that the guy with the better bench will be better in the clinch? Well holy bulled tyson in the clinches and they prob bench the same,lewis was stronger than tyson yet tyson benches more than him....Mosley allegedly benches 350 but was he stronger than winky who probably cant bench 220? There are many examples like this in boxing where prowess in the weights room meant nothing in the ring....
So you are saying if a boxer started doing squats and improved his lift from 100lbs to 300lbs that would have absolutly no affect on his punching power? BS. The carry over may not be huge, I'm not saying that he'll go from barely moving a 100lbs heavy bag to knocking it across the room, but there will be an increase in punching power, you cannot argue that. You seem to think there will be this huge noticeable difference, which is wrong.

[enquirer]

If a boxer went from a 100lbs squat to 300 lbs the big lilkelihood is that he would overdevelop his quads,glutes and hams and lose considerable mobility in his lower body...And how in the world would his punch power improve while squatting? This is the kind of ignorance im talking about......Ditto for bench press as well.....

[RDJ]

A very important difference between weights and bag work is the range of motion and moment of resistance. With weights the acceleration is much less, and the resistance is constant. With a punch the acceleration is high, and the resistance sudden. Bag work is resistance training too, but in a sports specific way.

[Relentless]

You ever done circuit training? Check out some of the Crossfit workouts, theres no way you could deny they build stamina.

but thats not strength training is it?

[viru§™]

If a boxer went from a 100lbs squat to 300 lbs the big lilkelihood is that he would overdevelop his quads,glutes and hams and lose considerable mobility in his lower body...

Clearly you have absolutly no clue. Do you understand how difficult it is to actually build muscle? Overdevelop quads, glutes and hams and lose mobility? Yet again down to bad/incorrect training. Just because you have big muscles does not make you slower.

And how in the world would his punch power improve while squatting?

If you had a clue you'd know a punch begins in the legs and ends at the fist. I think you can work it out from there, but ask if you don't understand.

[viru§™]

but thats not strength training is it?

Weight training doesn't have to be strength training.

[RDJ]

Bigger muscles means more mass. Do you think Sugar Ray Leonard would have been as mobile if he had 20 pounds more muscle? Building muscle isn't difficult at all. Workout, eat and sleep that's all there is to it. I know it's easier for some, and I appear to be in that group like most short and stocky guys. Lifting weights bulks me up in no time.

A punch begins in the legs but that power needs to be transferred to the muscles of the upper body. If your legs are too big, they generate more power than the waist can transfer. This is why bodybuilders (just an example) are shit punchers, their core is complete shit and unable to transfer the power. A chain is as strong as it's weakest link. This applies to your body as well.

[viru§™]

Bigger muscles means more mass. Do you think Sugar Ray Leonard would have been as mobile if he had 20 pounds more muscle? Building muscle isn't difficult at all. Workout, eat and sleep that's all there is to it. I know it's easier for some, and I appear to be in that group like most short and stocky guys. Lifting weights bulks me up in no time.

A punch begins in the legs but that power needs to be transferred to the muscles of the upper body. If your legs are too big, they generate more power than the waist can transfer. This is why bodybuilders (just an example) are shit punchers, their core is complete shit and unable to transfer the power. A chain is as strong as it's weakest link. This applies to your body as well.

Who said anything about bigger muscles?

[Relentless]

let me break it down for you, there are different types of strengths...

strength endurance
speed strength
explosive strength
maximal strength

strength endurance - strength endurance means to maintain muscular function under work conditions of long duration, an example would be to hit the bag continously for 3 minutes of a round without stopping/tiring.

speed strength - speed strength means to be able to quickly able to execute an unloaded movement or a movement against a small resistance (such as 10 oz gloves), an example of speed strength would be when a fighter throws a jab wearing a pair of 10 oz gloves the weight of the glove will mean nothing to him, he will throw a fast jab without loading up, he will rely on his speed alone.

explosive strength - eplosive strength means to produce maximum force in minimum time, an example of that would be a knockout punch, a fighter quickly put enough force into one punch.

maximal strength - maximal strength is the maximum force a person can exert, it builds the foundation for explosive strength.

strength endurance and speed strength are worked with boxing workouts, push ups, squats and calisthenics works strength endurance, punching the bag with gloves builds speed strength.

explosive strength and maximal strength are often neglected, maximal strength is worked with high weights and low reps compound weight lifting, explosive strength can be worked with plyometrics a good 14 sets of 10 reps etc,

explosive strength can also be trained with dynamic weight training, where you get lighter weights (not light weights) and perform each movement (e.g bench press) as fast and explosively as possible, 5x4 is a good way to train like this, or you can mix it up and look at complex training.

[RDJ]

Who said anything about bigger muscles?

You.

Just because you have big muscles does not make you slower.

[enquirer]

You virus and relentless are pretty rude and presumptious posters,i will give you two that much....
Rdj has just explained in a nutshell why muscle doesnt mean better boxing punching..................
And i know you are going to say you can build strength without adding mass,yes you can,but still how does this transfer to boxing punching power improvements? Adding 100lbs to my bench along with no extra mass ( very hard,but maybe possible in theory.) will not necessarily increase my punching power as the movements are not in any way related.......And in fact,even if i didnt add mass/weight,surely the bench muscles would increase somewhat in size,thus causing overdevelopment in front delts and chest,a no no in boxing......
Or can you increase strength significantly with no extra development in the muscles concerned,eg can you improve the squat from 100 lbs to 300 lbs with no increase in the quads,hams and glutes size/development? (never mind that you think you can do this with no increase in mass from such a large increase in strength!!!) If you can do this then i think you qualify as the world greatest ever weight trainer.......But still,you wont necessarily increase the punch power.....:bbb
ps; the insults show you guys cant back up what you are saying and have to resort to ad homineum....Forget the wiki and bodybuilding mags,relate your examples to the real world of sports performances,specifically boxing......

[RDJ]

edit.

I'll conclude with: to each his own.

We're going in circles.

[viru§™]

Bigger muscles means more mass. Do you think Sugar Ray Leonard would have been as mobile if he had 20 pounds more muscle? Building muscle isn't difficult at all. Workout, eat and sleep that's all there is to it. I know it's easier for some, and I appear to be in that group like most short and stocky guys. Lifting weights bulks me up in no time.

A punch begins in the legs but that power needs to be transferred to the muscles of the upper body. If your legs are too big, they generate more power than the waist can transfer. This is why bodybuilders (just an example) are shit punchers, their core is complete shit and unable to transfer the power. A chain is as strong as it's weakest link. This applies to your body as well.

Yet again this would be down to the training. If I were to train a boxer I wouldn't just have him doing squats.

[viru§™]

edit.

I'll conclude with: to each his own.

We're going in circles.

I agree. I couldn't be bothered to repeat the same things over and over.

[enquirer]

Especially when there is no real example beyond 'ross' of there being any world class fighter that improved significantly after using a strength coach......

[viru§™]

Especially when there is no real example beyond 'ross' of there being any world class fighter that improved significantly after using a strength coach......

FUCKING HELL. You clearly have problems understanding. I'm saying weights can potentially improve strength, speed and endurance. Why the fuck do you keep on going on about how it doesn't make you a better boxer?

[Relentless]

Especially when there is no real example beyond 'ross' of there being any world class fighter that improved significantly after using a strength coach......

whats up with you?

why are you bringing ross enamait into this? we all know he isn't a boxer he is a coach.

again you are asking how weight lifting makes you a better boxer....

[Relentless]

how does push ups make you a better boxer?

[Relentless]

RDJ sort your son out!

[enquirer]

Listen mister,give me an example of where this 'potential' was transferred to the real world to improve the boxers speed,endurance or power.....?????
Or are you just saying weight training can improve your genral strength,stamina and speed,becaue last time i looked this was a boxing forum,and you KEEP saying weight training will benefit a boxer,how by making his muscles look prettier?
The fact that you are now swearing shows you are losing it buster...
You two are now moving your positions hey,do weights benefit boxers directly or not? Stop this nonsense about improving speed and such like because you cant give one example of weights making a fighter faster can you?

[Relentless]

Listen mister,give me an example of where this 'potential' was transferred to the real world to improve the boxers speed,endurance or power.....?????
Or are you just saying weight training can improve your genral strength,stamina and speed,becaue last time i looked this was a boxing forum,and you KEEP saying weight training will benefit a boxer,how by making his muscles look prettier?
The fact that you are now swearing shows you are losing it buster...
You two are now moving your positions hey,do weights benefit boxers directly or not? Stop this nonsense about improving speed and such like because you cant give one example of weights making a fighter faster can you?

who's swearing? :nut

i have given you example in many posts, just read them again, i have also wrote an explenation of each strength types, so stop trolling,

[enquirer]

If you had been reading my posts i said that ANY resistance training even good ol pressups can hinder boxing prowess if it overdevelops certain muscles.....You dont even know my clear position on this and yet you are arguing still? My posts are not promoting old school training,i say that whatever works for the individual is fine,but weights dont seem to be panacea that you guys make them out to be,and im sure many boxers would benefit if they cut it out totally,while some may benefit by bringing up a weak bodypart,or if they have the physique that loses little speed and adds little weight through weights.....
You dont neccessarily need to do any pressups as an advanced boxer.....
Ps; relentless,you have given no real examples of a world class boxer benefiting from weights,if weights were that good you could have givenn me dozens that improved their PERFORMANCE through weights,and you or others couldnt name one...Virus was swearing,i wish you read properly......

[viru§™]

Listen mister,give me an example of where this 'potential' was transferred to the real world to improve the boxers speed,endurance or power.....?????
Or are you just saying weight training can improve your genral strength,stamina and speed,becaue last time i looked this was a boxing forum,and you KEEP saying weight training will benefit a boxer,how by making his muscles look prettier?
The fact that you are now swearing shows you are losing it buster...
You two are now moving your positions hey,do weights benefit boxers directly or not? Stop this nonsense about improving speed and such like because you cant give one example of weights making a fighter faster can you?

I'm not losing anything, it's the fact I've had to repeat the same things over and over and over to you and you keep on coming up with the same shit. Can weight training help a boxer? Yes. Go check Crossfit.com.

[Relentless]

If you had been reading my posts i said that ANY resistance training even good ol pressups can hinder boxing prowess if it overdevelops certain muscles.....You dont even know my clear position on this and yet you are arguing still? My posts are not promoting old school training,i say that whatever works for the individual is fine,but weights dont seem to be panacea that you guys make them out to be,and im sure many boxers would benefit if they cut it out totally,while some may benefit by bringing up a weak bodypart,or if they have the physique that loses little speed and adds little weight through weights.....
You dont neccessarily need to do any pressups as an advanced boxer.....

you finally got it huh?

but weight training doesn't always give you the 'beautiful phyisique' look at kelly pavlik and kostya tszyu they have ugly physiques.

[enquirer]

Relentless,you are either a liar,dumb,confused or just taking the piss......
You act like your some kind of authority,but your posts prove you know very little......you have proved nothing,its like you have schizophrenia....
You still dont know what i am saying.....
Any intelligent posters respond if you will......
ps;ugly is just an opinion,and i thought you didnt deal with opinions relentless?

[Relentless]

Relentless,you are either a liar,dumb,confused or just taking the piss......
You act like your some kind of authority,but your posts prove you know very little......you have proved nothing,its like you have schizophrenia....
You still dont know what i am saying.....
Any intelligent posters respond if you will......
ps;ugly is just an opinion,and i thought you didnt deal with opinions relentless?

what? who fucked your mother?

i finally agree with you and you start crying?

what exactly am i lying about?

[enquirer]

Son,im sorry but you are too confused to even reply to.....Maybe your ingesting too many steroids with your weight training punchy?
:hi: :bbb
Anybody else have anything intelligent to add?

[Relentless]

Son,im sorry but you are too confused to even reply to.....Maybe your ingesting too many steroids with your weight training punchy?
:hi: :bbb
Anybody else have anything intelligent to add?

great:good

[gregsid]

Holy crap 4 more pages of posts since I posted last night? You guys have to much time on your hands.

[BITCH ASS]

Are you joking?

It's true, but you get more power.

[elTerrible]

there are some techniques he could use to improve


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


+


[Only registered and activated users can see links]


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[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[boxexpert]

the question is not what training-method you choose,its about how you do it.

running is definitely essential,as bagwork,pads,sparring etc. doing weight-training the proper way will help increase power and stamina.

again,one needs to know how to do it.

not too much weight,but more sets with 20 repeats each. shadowboxing with 1 kilo weight in each and so on....

[viru§™]

the question is not what training-method you choose,its about how you do it.

running is definitely essential,as bagwork,pads,sparring etc. doing weight-training the proper way will help increase power and stamina.

again,one needs to know how to do it.

Finally, someone gets it.

[RDJ]

Finally, someone gets it.

He speaks about low weigths high reps, not exactly strength training the way you advocated it. I don't see the point in low weights high reps either btw.

[viru§™]

The fact it's how you do the training, not the example.

[viru§™]

Just a few example:

Weighted pullups/chinups
Weighted pushups
Weighted dips
Throwing dumbbells
Sledgehammer training
Medicine ball training

They are all forms of weight training. The weight doesn't have to be huge to make a difference.

[Rakim]

Just a few example:

Weighted pullups/chinups
Weighted pushups
Weighted dips
Throwing dumbbells
Sledgehammer training
Medicine ball training

They are all forms of weight training. The weight doesn't have to be huge to make a difference.




I can't believe the argument is still going :lol: I think people are getting their wires crossed anyway. Of course weight training can help a boxer, but will it help them more sufficiently than if they spent that time sparring?! I'm not sure, but that's what's kept this whole thing going for so many pages. I do weights because I want to get stronger, if I wanted to be a boxer, I'd box. I do, however, believe that if you took two identical humans, put one through a correct weight training routine for a year and left the other one alone, the one who trained will have a harder punch. No doubt in my mind.

[RDJ]

What if you had the other one on an oldschool boxers routine?

[Rakim]

What if you had the other one on an oldschool boxers routine?




:lol: Cunt.

[ralphc]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, the kid has some valid points.
Plus, saying that if Calzaghe lifted weighs and sprinted he would be better... I'm sorry to that you can't get much better than him, he the best in the world at his weight class and hes never really had any "close" fights. So apperently his training is the best for him and I'm sure hes tried other methods of training that didn't work as good (aka lifting).

Like one of you mentioned before, different things work better or worse for different people, there is no right or wrong to working out for the individual. Honestly I don't believe in weights either and I don't believe weights will make me stronger in comparision to using only calistenics. But once again that's my opinion and what works best for my body.


In boxing we have the Queensbury rules which limits what you can do in the ring. By virtue of the rules muscle strength does not become an issue because there are very few situations where you can effectively use it. Weight lifting will increase muscle strength, but it is a waste of time. The world's strongest man will never have an advantage over the world's best boxer unless the referee does not enforce the rules. Oscar De La Hoya was obviously stronger than Floyd Mayweather but it didn't do him a bit of good.

Any boxer will get as strong as he needs to be by using the same training methods that Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney used.

[Relentless]

In boxing we have the Queensbury rules which limits what you can do in the ring. By virtue of the rules muscle strength does not become an issue because there are very few situations where you can effectively use it. Weight lifting will increase muscle strength, but it is a waste of time. The world's strongest man will never have an advantage over the world's best boxer unless the referee does not enforce the rules. Oscar De La Hoya was obviously stronger than Floyd Mayweather but it didn't do him a bit of good.

Any boxer will get as strong as he needs to be by using the same training methods that Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney used.

weight lifting doesn't give you skills.

[radianttwilight]

In boxing we have the Queensbury rules which limits what you can do in the ring. By virtue of the rules muscle strength does not become an issue because there are very few situations where you can effectively use it. Weight lifting will increase muscle strength, but it is a waste of time. The world's strongest man will never have an advantage over the world's best boxer unless the referee does not enforce the rules. Oscar De La Hoya was obviously stronger than Floyd Mayweather but it didn't do him a bit of good.

Any boxer will get as strong as he needs to be by using the same training methods that Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney used.

The stronger fighter losing the fight doesn't mean that "strength is useless".

For the opposite end of the spectrum, look at Frazier-Foreman I. That's what muscular strength can do for you.

[youngmonzon]

The stronger fighter losing the fight doesn't mean that "strength is useless".

For the opposite end of the spectrum, look at Frazier-Foreman I. That's what muscular strength can do for you.

Foreman in the early seventies did not lift weights. Old school training all the way.

Weights do not improve punching power.

Leverage, timing, speed, proper technique, and god given X factors result in KO power.

[OZ Puncher]

Im so sick of this arguement... Its pointless and non conclusive. People say that weights improve a boxers speed reflexes and power... Please can someone give me documented proof where a boxer went from doing no weights in training to doing weights in training and absolutely dominating the division thereafter?? Its inconclusive cos these boxers are successful at te time b4 and time after. It is not detrimental nor is it important.

[Relentless]

Im so sick of this arguement... Its pointless and non conclusive. People say that weights improve a boxers speed reflexes and power... Please can someone give me documented proof where a boxer went from doing no weights in training to doing weights in training and absolutely dominating the division thereafter?? Its inconclusive cos these boxers are successful at te time b4 and time after. It is not detrimental nor is it important.

we have went over this like 20 on this thread alone, weights do not make you a better boxer, weights are just tools, just like the medicine ball is a tool.

[Relentless]

Foreman in the early seventies did not lift weights. Old school training all the way.

Weights do not improve punching power.

Leverage, timing, speed, proper technique, and god given X factors result in KO power.

thats not the point, the point is foreman had tremendous strength, you dont have to lift weights to gain strength, lifting weights is only one of the many ways of strength training.

[OZ Puncher]

we have went over this like 20 on this thread alone, weights do not make you a better boxer, weights are just tools, just like the medicine ball is a tool.

Please highlight where i clearly indicated weights make you a better boxer??

[pudding]

The stronger fighter losing the fight doesn't mean that "strength is useless".

For the opposite end of the spectrum, look at Frazier-Foreman I. That's what muscular strength can do for you.


What about Shavers-Foreman? Oh, it didn't happen! Why? Because Foreman ducked Shavers, and muscular strength had nothing to do with it.

[Dumi]

In boxing we have the Queensbury rules which limits what you can do in the ring. By virtue of the rules muscle strength does not become an issue because there are very few situations where you can effectively use it. Weight lifting will increase muscle strength, but it is a waste of time. The world's strongest man will never have an advantage over the world's best boxer unless the referee does not enforce the rules. Oscar De La Hoya was obviously stronger than Floyd Mayweather but it didn't do him a bit of good.

Any boxer will get as strong as he needs to be by using the same training methods that Jack Dempsey and Gene Tunney used.

great job on not using your brain while typing this post. Exactly how did you type to well with your ass?

When did anyone say that weight-lifting alone would help you in the ring? Of course Pudzianowski wouldn't beat de la hoya in the ring....because he hasn't been boxing his whole life. floyd mayweather was more skillful than de la hoya, that's what the main difference was. Nobody with a lick of intelligence EVER said to neglect your skills training.

Why the hell do so many people fight progression so adamantly?

[pudding]

great job on not using your brain while typing this post. Exactly how did you type to well with your ass?

When did anyone say that weight-lifting alone would help you in the ring? Of course Pudzianowski wouldn't beat de la hoya in the ring....because he hasn't been boxing his whole life. floyd mayweather was more skillful than de la hoya, that's what the main difference was. Nobody with a lick of intelligence EVER said to neglect your skills training.

Why the hell do so many people fight progression so adamantly?


what progression? boxers are clearly getting worse

[Dumi]

what progression? boxers are clearly getting worse

That's cause boxers are getting lazier and politics are killing the sport. Not to mention lots of would be boxers are now in other careers.

[Relentless]

Please highlight where i clearly indicated weights make you a better boxer??

you asked to show you proof of a boxer dominating after lifting weights.

[OZ Puncher]

you asked to show you proof of a boxer dominating after lifting weights.

Right. That doesnt improve boxing skill tho, the things which make a boxer. I asked for someone who started lifting weights and now has a great advantage over the rest.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe also uses some training devices that hadn'tt even been invented in the 40/50s

[baguettesurgeon]

you asked to show you proof of a boxer dominating after lifting weights.

Shannon Briggs :lol:

[aramini]

The larger a muscle is the more oxygen it requires to function at optimum efficiency. Thus Shane Mosley gassed more quickly at 154 pounds throwing 15 punches a round than he did at 147 throwing 60 (and yes, his opponents had something to do with that too). Weight training in addition to strength gains is nominally designed for increases in muscular volume, which necessarily incur a higher oxygen requirement. An anaerobic sprinter who can maintain a pace for three minutes physiologically has a slightly lower oxygen requirement for muscular work than someone who cannot maintain a sprint that long.

By increasing the volume to surface ratio of muscles, weight lifting can be detrimental to a sport that requires huge oxygen reserves over a period of time, like boxing. I don't imagine a marathon runner would be well served by intentionally meddling with the surface to volume ratio of their muscles, and perhaps the concommitant increases in strength for a boxer would be offset by the higher oxygen requirements, making the gains inutile and worthless as in the case of the obviously powerful Juan Urango who is plodding and slow even though he is still only 140 pounds.

[viru§™]

The larger a muscle is the more oxygen it requires to function at optimum efficiency. Thus Shane Mosley gassed more quickly at 154 pounds throwing 15 punches a round than he did at 147 throwing 60 (and yes, his opponents had something to do with that too). Weight training in addition to strength gains is nominally designed for increases in muscular volume, which necessarily incur a higher oxygen requirement. An anaerobic sprinter who can maintain a pace for three minutes physiologically has a slightly lower oxygen requirement for muscular work than someone who cannot maintain a sprint that long.

By increasing the volume to surface ratio of muscles, weight lifting can be detrimental to a sport that requires huge oxygen reserves over a period of time, like boxing. I don't imagine a marathon runner would be well served by intentionally meddling with the surface to volume ratio of their muscles, and perhaps the concommitant increases in strength for a boxer would be offset by the higher oxygen requirements, making the gains inutile and worthless as in the case of the obviously powerful Juan Urango who is plodding and slow even though he is still only 140 pounds.

Who said anything about muscle hypertrophy? Increased strength doesn't have to mean increased size.

[RDJ]

At some point it will either mean no more strength gains or hypertrophy.

[MrSmall]

Hypertrophy is one thing, complete strength training is another.

[youngmonzon]

Shannon Briggs :lol:

You must be joking!

Shannon Briggs can only dominate tomato cans. He became much worse after becoming muscle bound.

Briggs epitomizes the slow, no stamina, muscle bound weight lifting boxer.

[RDJ]

briggs problem was not his weight lifting, it was the lack of conditioning, same with guys like danny williams.

:patsch

Briggs lifted weights to become big and you still say his lifting wasn't the problem.

[RDJ]

[would he have been any better if he didn't lift?

because as i remember it lifting was the only training he done, without lifting he wouldn't have done anything.

same could be said the other way around, butterbean doesn't lift weights.......

you get the picture.

Ok you are right. It had nothing to do with his lifting :blood

[RDJ]

The problem was that his training consisted of lifting. Saying "lifting wasn't the problem" is therefore a bit of a funny statement.

[RDJ]

his training consisted of JUST lifting, not conditioning or skill training.

Ok we're going in circles here. I'll just move on now.

conditioning is number 1 for any boxer.

Skill takes the number one spot for me. James Toney beat quite a few conditioned fighters being a skilled fat cunt.

[brown_bomber]

there have been times where skilled boxers have lost to less inferior boxers because they ran out of gas or that the inferior boxers were fitter.

[RDJ]

there have been times where skilled boxers have lost to less inferior boxers because they ran out of gas or that the inferior boxers were fitter.

:huh

[boxexpert]

it doesnt really matter which method you choose: old school or modern.

combine the best of both worlds and use whats best for you.

nothing beats decent bagwork,pads and sparring.

david haye is very much into weightlifting. done the proper way, it will improve your punching power tremendous.

its not about what you do,its HOW you do it

[enquirer]

It also depends on your body type,and how your body reacts to weights or different old school methods...With some taller fighters they MAY be able to use some weights intelligently and sparingly if they have a certain need to develop certain muscles,or correct strength defects/imbalances,or even to move up divisions (david haye,mike spinks,both 6ft3.)....The shorter fighter however may become bulky and overdeveloped with even moderate use of weights and so will lose mobility,stamina and speed...
I think it all depends on how an individuals particular body reacts to the particular training and sparring and punching drills are still the tops when it comes to boxing training,especially at the elite level. Youngsters may indugle in some calisthenics or weights to build/develop their bodies...
Even pilates and core strength routines could help to build up moderately the muscles that help to stabilise the body which CAN help in punching power and efficiency of movement....
Finally,folks have got to realise that genetics and BOXING specific training plays a big part in being a puncher or having speed/strength,a guy like jones/ali can lift NO weights and be super fast,guys like hearns/trinidad can punch like mules with NO weights,guys like roldan/mclelland can be physically very strong with NO weights,and guys like calzaghe/duran can have endless stamina with NO weights......
ps; jack mosely,trainer and father of shane was quoted in boxing news the week before the cotto fight as saying that now his son has stopped using weights his speed has returned to near the level it was at previously......

[Bobby]

first off, calzaghe is a great fighter, but could he be better if he used some modern methods? I beleive so
secondly, boxers have different styles, those who use alot of ring movement and volume of punches are obviously going to need extra endurance training to those who rely on stalking their opponents and using powerfull combinations. but with more endurance comes less power and vice versa, so you have to find the balance that suits your style and the style you will fight against your next opponent.

[OZ Puncher]

Yes but mark you seriously think Calzaghe will be able to move his hands as quick as and constantly as he does, he doesnt need power. It is working just fine right now.

Modern methods are just a motion thrown around like the brand new Commodore, get out and get one because you'll be better off. Please. People do weights because coincidentally they may get a good win and they believe it is from the training, could they do just as well if not better without them, i believe so. Look at all good amateurs they kick arse. Look at an early Kostya Tszyu fight, or even De la Hoya, hell you could even watch a Sugar Ray Leonard fight, all so much more fluid and brilliant as amateurs.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe isn't an old school trainer.

He trains some of the time by punching with elastic rubber things attached to his hands. Rubber wasn't invented until 1990

[Bobby]

oz puncher, are you aware if done properly weight training makes you faster? how can that not help a boxer? how can modern training methods help every single sport except for boxing? you might enjoy reading this [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[OZ Puncher]

Mark that data is inconclusive. It may hav just been a coincidence. I want real proof whereas a boxer who is already training the "old school way" and data taken then weight training incorporated in and significant data recorded. Then i "MAY" be convinced.

[OZ Puncher]

Besides that was only for a single punch.

[Bobby]

oz, , one punch power is pretty damn important , but it goes on to talk about many different aspects of boxing and how modern training methods have helped,did you read the whole thing? not just using scientists and scientific research but real life examples with world champion boxers and trainers who accept that there is alot of merit to using some new ideas. I help athletes with their training alot, boxers,mma athletes,tennis players and soccer players, all are well trained before they come to me and after i have changed and edited their whole program and nutritional plan all get very good results, i dont just go on what they tell me but the improvements they experience in real life competition.

here is a good detailed plan that evander holyfield used, what he lacked in technique he made up for in conditioning,
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[enquirer]

Bobby,there are very few if any elite boxers in history who got better as they weight trained.....Guys like mike spinks,jones and such found it very useful to put on functional weight to move up to heavy,yes,but they didnt get better or more powerful as a result of this....calzaghe might slow himself down if he used weights.....The best in history NEVER used weights......This thread is now repeating itself,de ja vu all over gain ...

[viru§™]

calzaghe might slow himself down if he used weights.....The best in history NEVER used weights......This thread is now repeating itself,de ja vu all over gain ...
If you can explain the science behind weight training slowing you down maybe I'll believe something you've said. So what if the best in history never used weights? A boxer doesn't have to use weights but can get benfits from doing so, if done correctly.

You are yet again repeating the same thing and as I've told you; lifting weights won't make you a better boxer. A decent routine can help with conditioning, strength and speed, not improve boxing skill.

[enquirer]

Listen,science is proved by EMPIRICAL results buster......Just show me how weights improve ANYTHING by RESULTS,i dont want your unproven theories.....I want a world class elite boxer who improved his PHYSICALITY (not his boxing skills.) that then helped him become better in some way as a boxer....surely by you saying it improves your physical performance then this translates into some kind of improvement in your boxing? Otherwise what is the point of improving your bench by fifty pounds and then having no improvement in your boxing? I hope you and the others get the point,if weights dont eventually improve your punch power,punch speed,boxing stamina or boxing strength then they are useless except for looking good at the beach or bragging about your one rep max on the bench.....

[viru§™]

Again

If you can explain the science behind weight training slowing you down maybe I'll believe something you've said.

You are yet again repeating the same thing and as I've told you; lifting weights won't make you a better boxer. A decent routine can help with conditioning, strength and speed, not improve boxing skill.

You obviously don't have a clue about weights... who said anything about bench press?

[enquirer]

Listen,many who lift weights get bigger and slower boxing wise,fact,witness shane mosley,mike spinks,roy jones,mike tyson,shannon briggs,tyrell biggs,vargas and many others,and all of these still retained their boxing conditioning/training whilst doing the weights......The science is the muscles add weight and unneccessary bulk to the physique and this slows down the boxer and can lessen his stamina due to pulling around more weight or trying to move overdeveloped muscles.....Sports like track and field and american football have proven that weights benefit the guys in speed,size and power,but boxing aint NFL,and on this thread you guys have still yet to come up with ONE example of a guy benefitting big time from weights,holyfield was already great before he started weights,and the benefit he got was adding fuctional bodyweight to compete with heavies,he did however get relatively slower as he stacked on the muscle and his power didnt improve much if at all,especially at a p4p level..........Also dont discount the benefits of vitamin s,with steroids i agree you can get benefits with weights related to boxing,that why the nfl and track and field guys are so successful with weights,they combine them with vitamin S,which is a whole different ball game,if you pardon the pun......
I know about weights and steroids having experienced both......Your turn.....

[viru§™]

The science is the muscles add weight and unneccessary bulk to the physique and this slows down the boxer and can lessen his stamina due to pulling around more weight or trying to move overdeveloped muscles
I said science not "Um, well, the muscles add weight so it slows you down" This is completly wrong, lifting weights doesn't have to make you bigger, that's bodybuilding, showing again you don't really know what you're talking about.

Sports like track and field and american football have proven that weights benefit the guys in speed,size and power
This is a universal effect of weight lifting on EVERYONE no matter the sport. With a decent routine weights have their benefits for EVERYONE.

And for what, the 12th time this thread? Lifting weights will not make you a better boxer.

[pudding]

Why is it that after 30 years of weight lifting nobody in boxing ever learned how to do it properly?

[enquirer]

Lifting weights lead to overload and then adaptation which either leads to bigger muscles or more efficient neuromuscular functioning,most nearly this leads to increases in muscle size however you slice it....it is very rare to increase strength with no size gain unless your are an elite powerlifter using very heavy weights and low reps....for a novice/boxer to lift with no increase in muscle size is pretty near impossible and if it were possible,what is the said benefit to the boxer? Its too simplisitc to think that because a muscle can get stronger in the range of motion of a weight lifting exercise that somehow this translates to boxing mechanics.....Boxing aint track and field,and yes,how come the world of track is so clued up on weights and yet boxing is allegedly not?
These days you could struggle to compete in nfl or track and field without weights (though some can.) but in boxing i know for sure that a guy can become an atg boxer with NO WEIGHTS WHATSOEVER.....
End of chat......

[viru§™]

Lifting weights lead to overload and then adaptation which either leads to bigger muscles or more efficient neuromuscular functioning,most nearly this leads to increases in muscle size however you slice it....it is very rare to increase strength with no size gain unless your are an elite powerlifter using very heavy weights and low reps....for a novice/boxer to lift with no increase in muscle size is pretty near impossible and if it were possible,what is the said benefit to the boxer? Its too simplisitc to think that because a muscle can get stronger in the range of motion of a weight lifting exercise that somehow this translates to boxing mechanics.....Boxing aint track and field,and yes,how come the world of track is so clued up on weights and yet boxing is allegedly not?
These days you could struggle to compete in nfl or track and field without weights (though some can.) but in boxing i know for sure that a guy can become an atg boxer with NO WEIGHTS WHATSOEVER.....
End of chat......

Like I've already said a few times in this thread; a boxer doesn't have to use weights, but the benefits are their if he wants to.

[enquirer]

Yes,and results speak for themselves:

I prefer the benefits of sparring and punching drills which are proven to help develop the correct muscles for punching speed punching stamina and punching power by virtue of their being movement specific and improving the neuro muscular efficiency of the body in throwing good punches,and this is the perfect result for a BOXER......
Number of great boxers who used weights regularly: very small,holyfield and a few others....
Number of great boxers who didnt use weights: thousands......
Who wins? No WEIGHTS.......:hi: :good :yep :thumbsup :hat :rasta :bbb

[viru§™]

Yes,and results speak for themselves:

I prefer the benefits of sparring and punching drills which are proven to help develop the correct muscles for punching speed punching stamina and punching power by virtue of their being movement specific and improving the neuro muscular efficiency of the body in throwing good punches,and this is the perfect result for a BOXER......
Number of great boxers who used weights regularly: very small,holyfield and a few others....
Number of great boxers who didnt use weights: thousands......
Who wins? No WEIGHTS.......:hi: :good :yep :thumbsup :hat :rasta :bbb
I really couldn't be bothered with this pointless argument anymore. I know weight lifting can help improve speed, strength and conditioning, you don't want to believe it? That's fine :thumbsup

[pudding]

I really couldn't be bothered with this pointless argument anymore. I know weight lifting can help improve speed, strength and conditioning, you don't want to believe it? That's fine :thumbsup



Who is the high Priest of the Weightlifting religion? It must be a religion because there sure as fuck ain't any proof that a boxer ever benefited from it.

[boxingtactics07]

I'm personally against weights, but I don't see the harm if you break it down to one day a week like this (just an idea):

Warmup: Stretches, Shadowboxing, & Jump-Rope (Monday-Saturday)
Boxing: Bagwork, Drills, Tactics, Sparring (Monday-Saturday)
Conditioning: Morning Jogs (M,W,F,Saturday), Morning Sprints (T,T)
Strength Training: Calistentics (M-F), Plyometrics or Weights (Saturday)
REST: maybe a relaxing walk, swim, or bike ride IF NEEDED (SUNDAY)

If you can't make it to the gym (sometimes I can't), then develop your own home routine for the boxing portion (mostly consisting of heavybag work).

I think if you were to follow a 3-5 Day weight-training program, it would hinder your boxing abilities tremendously. One of my buddies lost a lot of speed after he upped his weight from 190 to 200 (his bench press went up a lot though). I only weigh 155, but he's been a regular sparring partner for me for a long time and I can tell how much slower he moves these days. He said he feels stronger, but much stiffer due to the weights, even though he was still doing his boxing training 4-5 days a week. I mean, you don't see too many muscleheads around your neighborhood that would make it in boxing do you? They are probably much better at lifting weights up in the air 3X8/5x5 times than me and you are though. Just my 2 cents.

[MrSmall]

Woah, woah.
You shouldn't say that about 5x5 guys. 5x5 is generally for strength over size. 6-12 reps is for that size, under is pure strength.

[RDJ]

I really couldn't be bothered with this pointless argument anymore. I know weight lifting can help improve speed, strength and conditioning, you don't want to believe it? That's fine :thumbsup

I think you should take those boxing classes and see how fast, strong and conditioned weights got you compared to the other people in that gym. I have a feeling you will be suprised, in a not so pleasant way.

[Bobby]

push ups and cin ups are resistance training, old school fighters did them, weights will make you faster, if you train the peoper way with weights you will not add any muscle, get stronger,faster and more powerfull.
most people associate weights with big muscle men, shane mosley did not look like a big muscle man for the cotto fight, but when he took steroids he added muscle. mma is very open minded and most of them use weights, but boxing is still plagued by uninformed people who lack the education to properly add theory to their practical knowledge, obviously nobody wants to change their mind here, so we will achieve nothing, but i beleive some modern training methods, nutrition especially, can really help a fighter if added to his normal boxing routine.

[viru§™]

I think you should take those boxing classes and see how fast, strong and conditioned weights got you compared to the other people in that gym. I have a feeling you will be suprised, in a not so pleasant way.

For some reason I think if I got my head smashed in while sparring it'd be because I've never boxed in my life, not because I lift weights.

[RDJ]

For some reason I think if I got my head smashed in while sparring it'd be because I've never boxed in my life, not because I lift weights.

I wasn't talking about sparring.

[viru§™]

I wasn't talking about sparring.

Okay, give me an example of a typical boxing lesson.

[RDJ]

Okay, give me an example of a typical boxing lesson.

Throwing punches, stuff like that :bbb

[Nwil]

virus, please explain how in the world weight training improves conditioning.

The only real purpose of weights is explosive power. However, you are born with a natural aptitude for this area (as you are with speed, intelligence, etc.), so in the scheme of things, weights will not have that much of an impact. It's just that the supporters take people like hatton, tszyu and haye and say 'oh look, weights helped their power', when in reality, they would have been explosive punchers without them due to their natural ability. I will state that I am not one to decry weights, but I won't recommend or use them. I wish they had had a benefit for me, but all they really did was increase my lifting strength while slowing the firing time of my punches. Of course I'm expecting some people to say 'oh, you just had bad technique', so they can still believe weights are great, but I can assure you I am well-versed in weight-lifting, because I was seriously involved in it before boxing.

Point: weights are far from essential and only generally beneficial, more so to people with specific body types. The important things for boxing are skill training, condition, and, oh yeah, heart.

If weights work for you, do them; but don't try to convince everyone else using psedo-scientific jargon and whatnot.

[Bobby]

it is true we are born with different skills, but there are things to enhance these skills further

[ralphc]

Throwing punches, stuff like that :bbb


Well said! :good

The only iron a man should pump is on the crease of his pants.

[enquirer]

Virus,you have never even Sparred!!!!!!!!! How can you sit there and type this crap when you dont even know what its like to even box or what kind of conditioning you need to box and punch well......Man,at least some weight lifting defenders have proper boxing experience.....To be honest the replies against the weights guys further enhance the lack of need for weights at the top level......
Weights are good to make a cruiser get to heavy with some functional weigh (as opposed to fat.) but for many fighters (especially the shorter ones.) they slow you down and decrease stamina. (unless used with steroids.) Shane mosleys' father was quoted the week before the cotto fight in boxing news as saying that now shane has stopped the weights his speed is returning to what it once was....
Even these guys like mackie shilstone and co never improved any fighters speed,power or stamina,they just built them more size/weight/muscle to compete at higher divisions....Jones got slower and had less punch output at heavy,as did spinks,and both worked with mackie.....
Bobby,can you show me any examples of champs improving punch power,punch speed or stamina after weights?
Calisthenics can be superior to weights as they use only bodyweight and can work the core,which can help with body stability in weaker fighters....To be honest calisthenics are not absolutely required either,resistance exercises are best for developing young or weak boxers,or for those rare few who have the body structure to benefit from weights/resistance without slowing down and getting bulky.....
I think folks need to know that the number one principle of science is PROVING theories with real life examples,quoting wikipedia or some obscure link is useless without empirical results,otherwise i will claim i can theoretically bench 400 pounds at 140 bodyweight and then when folks ask for evidence i will say it is possible in theory and only I know i can.....
The mechanics/muscle/coordination needed to punch well are not the same as those needed to lift weights....you get better at punching by punching,having the right genetics and having the right physical mechanics/technique...
Good day.....

[viru§™]

it is true we are born with different skills, but there are things to enhance these skills further

No point mate, I've been arguing this since the second page, they won't listen :-(

[Bobby]

ok i didnt read every post, i agree the bulk of training should be boxing specific, but if you run to get fitter, and do sit ups to get stronger abs etc.. why not do some weights for explosinve power or speed training, anyways each to their own i always keep an open mind to anything new and try it in my own training to see if it has any merit

[Des]

what a thread!!!!!!!!

I didn't read everything, but all i know:
Weightlifting ain't working for me!!

in the past I used to spend 1 training per week on weightlifting ( excirses like: benchpress, pec deck, squat, horizontal row, biceps cruls, triceps extention etc.), it felt okee. But i noticed that it really asked a lot of my body to do this training and in boxing training i would get tired real quick.
It takes a longer time to recover form weightlifting, is my experience.

Now I don't do any weightlifting, I just do some push-ups,sit-ups and pull-ups every week and I feel better. I like my speed and my power.

do with this reaction what you what, but weights ain't working for me!!

[Bobby]

des, push ups ,chin ups dips etc are all weight training, body weight training is sometimes harder than using machines, chin ups are much harder and more effective than lat pulldown machine
remember, weight training is not just one thing with one goal, if you train properly it will help, athletes should do explosive full body exercises like the clean and press. leave the isolation exercises and high reps to the bodybuilders

[Des]

Thanks for your reaction, bobby.

But it seems that the bodyweight excerises work much better for me then machines or dumbells.

And i don't focus on the weighttraining, including the bodyweight training, as much as I used too.

[Nwil]

it is true we are born with different skills, but there are things to enhance these skills further


yes, but only to a certain degree, making some exercises pointless for some types of people, hence how weights work for some and not others.

virus, is it true you have never even sparred? What is your boxing experience? If what enquirer said is true....I don't know any better way to phrase this but.....shut the fuck up. If what he said wasn't true - that is, if you have substantial experience and have benefitted from weights in the ring - then your opinions are valid.

[Des]

virus, is it true you have never even sparred? What is your boxing experience? If what enquirer said is true....I don't know any better way to phrase this but.....shut the fuck up.

:good

[Bobby]

des, bodyweigth trainig is great if done properly, and remember guys, you will only add muscle if you eat a certain amount and train a certain way

[viru§™]

yes, but only to a certain degree, making some exercises pointless for some types of people, hence how weights work for some and not others.

virus, is it true you have never even sparred? What is your boxing experience? If what enquirer said is true....I don't know any better way to phrase this but.....shut the fuck up. If what he said wasn't true - that is, if you have substantial experience and have benefitted from weights in the ring - then your opinions are valid.
As I've said over and over, weights will benefit anyone if adapted correctly. To be honest your opinion means fuck all, you don't even know how weight training help with conditioning...

And as I've said many times before - you don't want to use weights? Then don't, it's pretty simple.