As Marciano was never beaten, is it reasonable to pick a >200lb fighter over him?

[McGrain]

There is some contention over his level of competition, but he fought the best of his era, overcame adversity (back, cuts, great, great boxing Heavyweights) and fought a proper pro career - never beaten.

Given that Roy Jones is treated by some as an unbeatable monster head to head (not unjustly perhaps), despite the fact that he didn't fight some of his best contempories, what of Marciano who actually remained unbeaten?

Can picking him over anyone between 175 and 200 be justified, Jones, Dempsey, Ezzard Charles (of course) included, be justified? Or is he the best around this weight, all time?

[ChrisPontius]

Unless i misinterpret your post, don't you mean <200lb?

I would not make any fighter in the history of the sport below 200lb a favorite over Marciano. In a head to head sense, Marciano is top10 p4p for me.

[McGrain]

Unless i misinterpret your post, don't you mean <200lb?

Yeah. Sometimes I get confused.

[SteveO]

I'm not saying he would win, but I think Jones at 198 would give the Rock some trouble.

[McGrain]

The mind starting to slip there, old timer?

:lol:

Show yourself the door son.

[RockyJim]

Jones over Marciano? As soon as the"Suzie Q" lands,...say"goodnight"

[brownpimp88]

His record is overrated to me, it consists of 36 tomato cans, 2 blown up light heavyweights that were past thier best and an old joe louis with about 5 contenders. Joe Frazier would have been undefeated if he fought during that era too.

[Luigi1985]

His record is overrated to me, it consists of 36 tomato cans, 2 blown up light heavyweights that were past thier best and an old joe louis with about 5 contenders. Joe Frazier would have been undefeated if he fought during that era too.


Yeah, he had a lot of trouble with a mediocre contender like Bonavena, but he automatically beat HOF like Walcott or Charles...

[brownpimp88]

Yeah, he had a lot of trouble with a mediocre contender like Bonavena, but he automatically beat HOF like Walcott or Charles...
Bonavena would have been a top 5 contender in that era. Ezzard Charles and joe walcott are boxers that stylistically are good for frazier, i would easily see him beating both. By the way, the rock fought the 1954 version of charles anyways, he was 3-4 years past his prime by then.

[Luigi1985]

Bonavena would have been a top 5 contender in that era. Ezzard Charles and joe walcott are boxers that stylistically are good for frazier, i would easily see him beating both. By the way, the rock fought the 1954 version of charles anyways, he was 3-4 years past his prime by then.


Be honest, you never saw a prime Charles, so you can´t judge how the Charles was who fought Marciano...

[McGrain]

His record is overrated to me, it consists of 36 tomato cans, 2 blown up light heavyweights that were past thier best and an old joe louis with about 5 contenders. Joe Frazier would have been undefeated if he fought during that era too.

In a way, I want to say "so?" Rocky ran into trouble, and proved himself a "find a way" fighter. A big, big thing. You get told "one round" and you knock that man out, that's a big deal to me.

Anwyay, do you pick anyone to beat him at around his own weight?

[Luigi1985]

You sound like the Walcott or the Charles who fought Marciano were bad versions like the Holmes who fought Tyson (IMO Tyson beats also a prime Holmes btw), but that isn´t the truth, I saw both Walcott and Charles (especially him, because Walcott peaked very late) and the versions who fought Rocky were very good.

[brownpimp88]

Be honest, you never saw a prime Charles, so you can´t judge how the Charles was who fought Marciano...
He lost 7 times within a 3 year span prior to losing to marciano, i think that suggests his prime was over.

[Jbuz]

I think Frazier would've definately dominated the era as well, though he may have suffered a loss.

[brownpimp88]

You sound like the Walcott or the Charles who fought Marciano were bad versions like the Holmes who fought Tyson (IMO Tyson beats also a prime Holmes btw), but that isn´t the truth, I saw both Walcott and Charles (especially him, because Walcott peaked very late) and the versions who fought Rocky were very good.
I never said anything about his walcott win, thats his best win.

[Amsterdam]

I'd pick most modern Heavy's who are ranked, most modern solid CW's and plenty of famous LHW's over Marciano.

Bob Foster wins over Marciano in my opinion.

[Luigi1985]

He lost 7 times within a 3 year span prior to losing to marciano, i think that suggests his prime was over.


He lost twice to Walcott, who he beat before, than to Valdes, and than to Layne. The Johnson-loss I don´t count, because it was a robbery. No shame to lose against such good ranked opposition, let Wlad fight fighters like Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Arreola, etc. (instead of fighters like Austin) in 2 years time than you would see that he would also lose some fights, lame counter...

[Luigi1985]

I'd pick most modern Heavy's who are ranked, most modern solid CW's and plenty of famous LHW's over Marciano.

Bob Foster wins over Marciano in my opinion.


Of course Foster would win, he proved at HW that he could survive against an ATG-HW- puncher like Marciano with his iron chin...

[brownpimp88]

He lost twice to Walcott, who he beat before, than to Valdes, and than to Layne. The Johnson-loss I don´t count, because it was a robbery. No shame to lose against such good ranked opposition, let Wlad fight fighters like Ibragimov, Chagaev, Povetkin, Arreola, etc. (instead of fighters like Austin) in 2 years time than you would see that he would also lose some fights, lame counter...
Yeah and right after the marciano losses he lost 15 times within 5 years. So he lost 22 times within 8 years, hardly a lame counter. Charles was past his prime.

[Amsterdam]

Anthony Mundine is likely a good pick over Rocky also.

[Vanboxingfan]

Best ever at around 200lbs +/- 5 lbs. I'd say the competition is between Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, and Holyfield. Tough to pick between them, if forced I'd probably go with Louis or Holyfield.

[Marciano Frazier]

There is some contention over his level of competition, but he fought the best of his era, overcame adversity (back, cuts, great, great boxing Heavyweights) and fought a proper pro career - never beaten.

Given that Roy Jones is treated by some as an unbeatable monster head to head (not unjustly perhaps), despite the fact that he didn't fight some of his best contempories, what of Marciano who actually remained unbeaten?

Can picking him over anyone between 175 and 200 be justified, Jones, Dempsey, Ezzard Charles (of course) included, be justified? Or is he the best around this weight, all time? I would personally give Marciano at least even odds against any sub-200 pound opponent in history.

[radianttwilight]

Anyone with a chin is a threat to Marciano.

[Seamus]

I'd pick most modern Heavy's who are ranked, most modern solid CW's and plenty of famous LHW's over Marciano.

Bob Foster wins over Marciano in my opinion.

You've got to be shitting me.

I'm no great fan of Marciano as they come but in my 30 years of watching the sport, and 8 years of competing in it, I'd say he's as good a pick as there is in the sub-200 class, a definite lb for lb'er. There are so many things he does so well that the novice misses on film and even his competition missed until they got in the ring with him. Supremely under-rated defense, fantastic stamina and fitness, and he carried a bit of pop. Plus, that somewhat important thing called heart which he proved time and again. Short career in terms of his time at the top? Sure, but his style dictated that, as did Fraziers, Dempsey's and Tyson's.

I'm not going to rank him as unbeatable vs. top heavies of the last three decades, but for under 200 lbs., no doubt in my mind.

[janitor]

Anthony Mundine is likely a good pick over Rocky also.

Keep taking the tablets.

[janitor]

Can picking him over anyone between 175 and 200 be justified, Jones, Dempsey, Ezzard Charles (of course) included, be justified? Or is he the best around this weight, all time?

I would say only if they were an all time great and there was a good stylistic argument for that fighter beating him.

In that case sure.

[janitor]

Joe Frazier would have been undefeated if he fought during that era too.

It is one thing to run your eye down Marciano's record and conclude you would favour Frazier over every single opponent.

Quite another to asume that he would fight them all in that order and never loose.

Personaly I would give Marciano even money or less at repeating his 49-0 record if we ran the experiment agains with the same opponents.

[Mendoza]

Amsterdam I'd pick most modern Heavy's who are ranked, most modern solid CW's and plenty of famous LHW's over Marciano.

Same here


Bob Foster wins over Marciano in my opinion.

No way.

[janitor]

Same here


What modern cruiserweights would you pick over him?

Or heavyweights for that matter?

[Mendoza]

What modern cruiserweights would you pick over him?

Or heavyweights for that matter?

Oh, I misread the question. My mistake. I thought it read which modern heavyweight would you pick over Marciano's competition! Quite a few.

What modern Cruiserweights would I pick over Marciano?

Perhaps Holyfield at 190 pounds could eek out a point’s decision. But outside of Holyfield, there really has not been a super impressive cruiser weight.

I would pick Walcott, or a prime Charles to be the #1 guy at Cruiser weight today.

[ChrisPontius]

You've got to be shitting me.

I'm no great fan of Marciano as they come but in my 30 years of watching the sport, and 8 years of competing in it, I'd say he's as good a pick as there is in the sub-200 class, a definite lb for lb'er. There are so many things he does so well that the novice misses on film and even his competition missed until they got in the ring with him. Supremely under-rated defense, fantastic stamina and fitness, and he carried a bit of pop. Plus, that somewhat important thing called heart which he proved time and again. Short career in terms of his time at the top? Sure, but his style dictated that, as did Fraziers, Dempsey's and Tyson's.

I'm not going to rank him as unbeatable vs. top heavies of the last three decades, but for under 200 lbs., no doubt in my mind.

Great post. :good

[janitor]

Great post. :good

If I remember your rankings correctly you only have 200lb+ fighters over him (Louis borderline case but we call him 200).

If you had to handpick a fighter comfortably under 200 to beat the Rock then who do you want?

[Luigi1985]

Anthony Mundine is likely a good pick over Rocky also.

You should be banned for that! Damn, ESB is getting worse and worse...

[ChrisPontius]

If I remember your rankings correctly you only have 200lb+ fighters over him (Louis borderline case but we call him 200).

If you had to handpick a fighter comfortably under 200 to beat the Rock then who do you want?

I indeed excluded Louis as he grew over 200lbs when he got into his middle 20's.



Like i said before, i would not pick any fighter under 200lbs to beat Rocky, but if i had to pick one that i'd give the best odds, it would be Dempsey. If he goes for broke early, he has a chance to win by knockout.. although i don't find it likely. Walcott would've been my other pick, but then again, Rocky already beat him twice. But he gave a good account of himself the first time. We don't know for sure what happened in the rematch, perhaps Walcott had lost faith, Marciano had a reputation for breaking wills.

If there was watchable film on him, i may have given Langford decent odds. His record supports it. But i find it hard to judge without film.

My 4th "upset" pick is Ingo. His completely destroyed Machen who wasn't faced by Liston's power over 12 rounds. If (and that's a very big if) he lands that right hand right when Marciano is in the process of throwing a punch, maybe he can knock him out. However, due to Ingo's weak chin, Marciano's strong chin and much more dimensional-ness, i don't think he'd win more than 1 out of 10.

A guy like Schmeling, despite being a superior fighter compared to Johansson, i'd give even less chance. He won't have a chance to stop Marciano and he's unlikely to outbox for long enough either due to his lack of durability.

[ChrisPontius]

You should be banned for that! Damn, ESB is getting worse and worse...

What if i said Damiani could beat Rocky if he doesn't get hit on the nose.. ?:hey

[Luigi1985]

What if i said Damiani could beat Rocky if he doesn't get hit on the nose.. ?:hey


:lol:



Well, it would be way more logical. Damiani was a big fighter with good skills, good chin and good speed for a man of his size. He beat fighters at the amateurs like Stevenson, and at the pro´s he beat also good fighters like DuPlooy, Biggs, etc., he could have outboxed a lot of better ranked fighters (history-wise) IMO, I accept normally almost every opinions, I want to hear other opinions, that´s why I go in a forum, but to say a SMW like Mundine, who lost to fighters like Siaca (who was schooled by a 40 years old Branco) beats Marciano perhaps is really sick...

[Luigi1985]

Btw, ChrisPontius, what do you think of Damiani?

[Quick Cash]

I don't pretend to know what the ultimate outcome of a fight with Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey would be, but I think Jack knocks him down early.

[Luigi1985]

I don't pretend to know what the ultimate outcome of a fight with Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey would be, but I think Jack knocks him down early.


Yeah, Dempsey is for example a good pick. I would also expect him to be a hard fight for Marciano, here´s my list with fighters who I would give a chance against Rocky (under 200 lbs):


Jack Dempsey
James J. Corbett
Gene Tunney
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Billy Conn

[ChrisPontius]

Btw, ChrisPontius, what do you think of Damiani?

I have to admit i have only seen his fight with Mercer. He impressed me very much during that fight: relatively fast hands and feet, good boxing skills, size and power. You could say that the shot on the nose was a bit of bad luck (it looked like grazing blow, which can be like a bareknuckle punch if it hits the tip of the nose). I don't think he lost more than a few rounds against Ray , but i don't know how he lost to McCall and why he retired.

Looks like one of those fighters who lacked something essentiel to really make it to the top, despite having "top" tools.

[Luigi1985]

I have to admit i have only seen his fight with Mercer. He impressed me very much during that fight: relatively fast hands and feet, good boxing skills, size and power. You could say that the shot on the nose was a bit of bad luck (it looked like grazing blow, which can be like a bareknuckle punch if it hits the tip of the nose). I don't think he lost more than a few rounds against Ray , but i don't know how he lost to McCall and why he retired.

Looks like one of those fighters who lacked something essentiel to really make it to the top, despite having "top" tools.


Agreed. After the unlucky Mercer-fight, he stopped training at the gym, that´s why he lost to the one-dimensional McCall, against the shot Page he won although in awful shape, but against a young and motivated Oliver in top shape it wasn´t enough. Mercer won 1 or at the best 2 rounds against Damiani, the shot at the nose didn´t wobble him or so, but it was a serious injury where you can´t go on boxing. It was unlucky, I would have liked to see him against some other fighters (Morrison for example) which he would be able to beat IMO...

[McGrain]

I indeed excluded Louis as he grew over 200lbs when he got into his middle 20's.



Like i said before, i would not pick any fighter under 200lbs to beat Rocky, but if i had to pick one that i'd give the best odds, it would be Dempsey. If he goes for broke early, he has a chance to win by knockout.. although i don't find it likely. Walcott would've been my other pick, but then again, Rocky already beat him twice. But he gave a good account of himself the first time. We don't know for sure what happened in the rematch, perhaps Walcott had lost faith, Marciano had a reputation for breaking wills.

If there was watchable film on him, i may have given Langford decent odds. His record supports it. But i find it hard to judge without film.

My 4th "upset" pick is Ingo. His completely destroyed Machen who wasn't faced by Liston's power over 12 rounds. If (and that's a very big if) he lands that right hand right when Marciano is in the process of throwing a punch, maybe he can knock him out. However, due to Ingo's weak chin, Marciano's strong chin and much more dimensional-ness, i don't think he'd win more than 1 out of 10.

A guy like Schmeling, despite being a superior fighter compared to Johansson, i'd give even less chance. He won't have a chance to stop Marciano and he's unlikely to outbox for long enough either due to his lack of durability.

Lovely post.

[McGrain]

Jack Dempsey
James J. Corbett
Gene Tunney
Ezzard Charles
Evander Holyfield
Jimmy Bivins
Tommy Loughran
Billy Conn

Luigi, great list. - I would remove Conn - Louis fought in a pretty small killing zone, Conn identified it and took beautiful advantage of it (though not in the second fight, not allowed to). I don't think he would be able to do this with Rocky who is prepared to take more chances with his punching. Rocky by KO, early.

[Luigi1985]

Luigi, great list. - I would remove Conn - Louis fought in a pretty small killing zone, Conn identified it and took beautiful advantage of it (though not in the second fight, not allowed to). I don't think he would be able to do this with Rocky who is prepared to take more chances with his punching. Rocky by KO, early.


Thanks. If Conn fights with a smart fight plan, I can see him outpointing Marciano, if Billy´s fighting character would allowed it, it´s surely another question...

[Dempsey1238]

I dont see Billy out pointed Marciano. Has a other guy said, Louis's style gave Conn room to box and out point Louis. Marciano would be chest to chest with Conn. I think Marciano would take Conn out in 7 rounds or less imo.

[Luigi1985]

I dont see Billy out pointed Marciano. Has a other guy said, Louis's style gave Conn room to box and out point Louis. Marciano would be chest to chest with Conn. I think Marciano would take Conn out in 7 rounds or less imo.


I also think that Marciano would KO him, but I give Conn ca. 15 % chances to outpoint Rocky...

[cuchulain]

I'd pick most modern Heavy's who are ranked, most modern solid CW's and plenty of famous LHW's over Marciano.

Bob Foster wins over Marciano in my opinion.


Surely you jest, Amsterdam.

Sam Peter?

Jameel McCline?

Sultan?

Kali Meehan?

John Ruiz?

Mike Mollo?

And the same Bob Foster who was UD'd in his prime by Zora Folley (Shut-out).

[radianttwilight]

Picking modern HWs over Marciano is totally different than picking <200lb fighters over Marciano.

The Vitali Klitschko that fought Lewis, for example, would DESTROY Marciano. So would Foreman (young or old), Lewis, the Bowe from Holyfield I...Any conditioned superheavyweight that's taller than 6'3 or so with an iron chin would wreck Marciano.

Any "Marciano vs. X" matchup comes down to durability. The only way Marciano is gonna beat a skilled big man (with a good chin) is via workrate, which most skilled fighters (especially modern heavyweights/superheavyweights) would negate. If his opponent has a solid chin and doesn't let Marciano throw/land hundreds of punches per round, they are at least 50/50 to win.

Also - I'd bet both my kidneys that Marciano was not as hard a puncher as his resume indicates. Granted, knocking out a bunch of old LHWs doesn't mean you are a hard puncher...but you have to keep in mind that Marciano fought his career wearing smaller gloves than modern HWs.

[Ted Spoon]

The idea that the 'larger, more talented' variety of super heavyweight would take care of Rocky is unjustified. Marciano's top flight opposition where small men by today’s standards, but his record vs. bigger men, regardless of calibre, is quite destructive.

Certainly by virtue of the larger target, a greater volume of Marciano's flailing bombs would land, as he would re-instate his pre-championship, slugger-style of 'seek and destroy' rather than his title reign style of 'press and suffocate'.

A long, snappy jab from a big man could cause Rocky some big problems, but at the same time, his slithering ways of evading while advancing could create the path to hell for his larger opponent.

[Maxmomer]

I think you could make an argument for him beating anyone from 180-200, sure, but I pick plenty to beat him in that weight range.

[Seamus]

I think you could make an argument for him beating anyone from 180-200, sure, but I pick plenty to beat him in that weight range.

For argument's sake, name a few.

[Maxmomer]

For argument's sake, name a few.

I think that Schmeling, Tunney, Holyfield and Langford could all beat him, but the only fighter I'm dead certain would beat him in that weight range is Dempsey.

[Seamus]

I think that Schmeling, Tunney, Holyfield and Langford could all beat him, but the only fighter I'm dead certain would beat him in that weight range is Dempsey.

I respect your opinion though differ somewhat in my own. Holy and Tunney would have the best chances, though the fancy dan's did baffle Marciano at times, he ultimately caught up, especially in rematches. In regards to Holy, we have to consider the cruiser version who was less powerful than Moore though very active. That would be a wonderful bout.

Langford- as great as I consider him- didn't have quite the firepower or defense to handle a prime Marciano. My opinion.

Schmeling was not of the same caliber in many regards, though Marciano could be nailed with a straight right.

Lastly, Dempsey had such a short prime and was wildly inconsistent. I think Maricano would be bound to come in better shape than his opponent and certainly take him out in the later rounds. Marciano was no Firpo in lack of style and Firpo was no Marciano in output or even power. Unless he conjured a Willard type effort, I think Dempsey goes down.

[Maxmomer]

I respect your opinion though differ somewhat in my own. Holy and Tunney would have the best chances, though the fancy dan's did baffle Marciano at times, he ultimately caught up, especially in rematches. In regards to Holy, we have to consider the cruiser version who was less powerful than Moore though very active. That would be a wonderful bout.

Langford- as great as I consider him- didn't have quite the firepower or defense to handle a prime Marciano. My opinion.

Schmeling was not of the same caliber in many regards, though Marciano could be nailed with a straight right.

Lastly, Dempsey had such a short prime and was wildly inconsistent. I think Maricano would be bound to come in better shape than his opponent and certainly take him out in the later rounds. Marciano was no Firpo in lack of style and Firpo was no Marciano in output or even power. Unless he conjured a Willard type effort, I think Dempsey goes down.
Langford was very good defensively and is one of the best punchers of all time, I think he'd stand great chance against Marciano and I don't quite see how Dempsey was wildly inconsistent.

[NickHudson]

Mundine is certainly a funny pick as he has a glass jaw. Can you imagine putting a glass jawed SMW in with the Rock...:admin

:lol:



Well, it would be way more logical. Damiani was a big fighter with good skills, good chin and good speed for a man of his size. He beat fighters at the amateurs like Stevenson, and at the pro´s he beat also good fighters like DuPlooy, Biggs, etc., he could have outboxed a lot of better ranked fighters (history-wise) IMO, I accept normally almost every opinions, I want to hear other opinions, that´s why I go in a forum, but to say a SMW like Mundine, who lost to fighters like Siaca (who was schooled by a 40 years old Branco) beats Marciano perhaps is really sick...

[Seamus]

Langford was very good defensively and is one of the best punchers of all time, I think he'd stand great chance against Marciano and I don't quite see how Dempsey was wildly inconsistent.

I consider Langford one of the all time greats. However, after studying what footage exists of him, his style was somewhere between the crude pre-Johnson era and a forebearer to the action fighters of the 40's and beyond. However, he was W-I-D-E- open for counters, overcommiting to many punches. I don't see much in the way of great defense, even for his time.

Dempsey-Gibbons.

[Maxmomer]

I consider Langford one of the all time greats. However, after studying what footage exists of him, his style was somewhere between the crude pre-Johnson era and a forebearer to the action fighters of the 40's and beyond. However, he was W-I-D-E- open for counters, overcommiting to many punches. I don't see much in the way of great defense, even for his time.

Dempsey-Gibbons.

That's fair enough, though I don't think Langford should be judged souly on the few poor quality films available of him.

Dempsey Gibbons? What about it? Gibbons was crafty, quick and iron chinned, and Dempsey still managed to take most of the rounds of their fight. Louis didn't fair any better against Billy Conn, a similar fighter to Gibbons. Until the KO he was doing worse against Conn than Dempsey did against Gibbons.