Ingemar Johansson was not knocked out cold by Brian London

[Marciano Frazier]

The story of Ingemar Johansson, after outboxing Brian London for most of their 12-round fight, being knocked out cold in the last 10 seconds of the fight and laying unconscious on the floor for several minutes, not regaining his senses until after the decision had already been announced in his favor, is an old and widespread tale, the veracity of which a lot of boxing fans seem to take for granted. I've noticed it popping up repeatedly in recent discussions I've had(generally being used to discredit Johansson, and often accompanied by claims that he was a "joke" or a fluke champion and that he would be knocked out by most any real top fighter), and when someone brings it up, it is never challenged or questioned, so I thought creating a new thread rather than leaving it inside a discussion where it could be overlooked would be the best solution to try and get the truth out here.

Johansson was not knocked out cold against London. He was knocked down in the last few seconds of the fight, but was up at the count of about four or five. If you examine the contemporary newspaper accounts, you'll find that they say Johansson was put down at the end of the fight and that London lost the opportunity to go for a knockout because of the timing of the knockdown, but none of them claim that he was knocked out for minutes or wasn't even conscious as the decision was announced. According to the Associated Press account, "The count had reached four fall and Johansson had just lurched to his feet when the final bell rang." Although I've never seen the film, I have read that, in fact, it is clearly visible that Johansson is back on his feet about four seconds after being put down and is very much conscious as the decision is announced. The claim that Johansson was knocked out cold as a doorknob and didn't move for minutes afterwards is a tall tale which has gradually crept its way into the realm of what the public at large considers historical- I've seldom seen such a patently false claim go so unchallenged and fully accepted among knowledgeable fans as this one has.

This also brings me to the larger point that Johansson is a very underrated, underappreciated and devalued fighter. He was an Olympic Silver medalist, may even have won the Gold if he hadn't been prematurely disqualified in the championship match, fought very tough professional opposition from an extremely early stage (in fact, he never faced an opponent with a losing record in his entire career), was routinely taking on and dominantly beating the top European heavyweights of his era within his first 15 fights, had completely cleaned out the major European scene by his 20th pro fight, and then moved up to the world-class level and utterly annihilated the top two heavyweights in the world, back-to-back. That right there places him far, far ahead of the overwhelming majority of heavyweight contenders and ahead of a good few champions as well.
He did proceed to lose the title, fatten up to 200+ pounds and fade in his last few performances, but he still had Patterson down twice and nearly out in their third fight, and went on to string together four more wins against solid opposition before retiring. His only career losses were against Patterson(he beat every man he ever faced, in fact), who he mopped the floor with in their first fight and nearly blew out again in their third meeting. Patterson faced nearly all the best contenders and champions of the mid-'50s through early '70s, and no one aside from Liston blew him out the way Johansson did. Similarly, Machen had an extended career in which he took on numerous elite fighters all the way from the mid-'50s through the end of the '60s, and no one ever even came close to replicating what Johansson did to him, including the likes of Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Jerry Quarry and Smokin' Joe Frazier.
Johansson was a force to be reckoned with and a very legitimate elite-level fighter at his best. It's unfortunate that so many people remember him mainly for the famous "leg-twitch" knockout he suffered in the second Patterson fight and being knocked out cold by London and saved by the bell, a story which isn't even true. I consider Johansson a clear top 25 all-time heavyweight.

[Musashi]

Nice post. Ingo is definitely underrated historically, and mostly unappreciated. However, his career was fairly short and his competition was solid, but not quite to the level of some of his contemporaries. I'm not sure if he quite makes my all-time top 25, but he's definitely around 30-35.

I would have loved to see Marciano versus Johansson. That would have been a fun slugfest (although I see Rocky winning this one).

[Langford]

very solid post there MF, true stuff.

What about the talk that gets thrown around about Johansson vs. Ali (and a young Ali showing him up) during a sparring session? I have always wondered about what the facts were on that, but never too much I guess because I never looked too much into it, but your post makes me wonder about it.
How in shape was Ingemar? Was he even trying? What exactly happened? Was Ali simply moving around the ring and avoiding him? And if so, what does that prove? In addition to the London myth people always seem to bring that up as a way to poke a hole into Johansson is worthy argument.

[Marciano Frazier]

very solid post there MF, true stuff.

What about the talk that gets thrown around about Johansson vs. Ali (and a young Ali showing him up) during a sparring session? I have always wondered about what the facts were on that, but never too much I guess because I never looked too much into it, but your post makes me wonder about it.
How in shape was Ingemar? Was he even trying? What exactly happened? Was Ali simply moving around the ring and avoiding him? And if so, what does that prove? In addition to the London myth people always seem to bring that up as a way to poke a hole into Johansson is worthy argument. I'm uncertain about this incident. I do know that Johansson was known for being unmotivated and unimpressive in sparring, and Ali was extremely anxious to prove himself at this time and was likely very motivated if he was getting the chance to strut his stuff against a heavyweight champ. Not to mention, Johansson came into the third Patterson fight with a bit of gut and weighing in at a career high of 206, and this was well before then, so he was probably 210+ and quite flabby at the time of this sparring session. And even if those previous sentences weren't true, being shown up for a round or two in a sparring session with one of the greatest heavyweights of all time would hardly be cause to write a fighter off, or even really relevant to anything.

[Woller]

I have film of the last round of Johansson v London. You are correct. Ingemar was NOT knocked cold, but rose early in the count.

Woller

[Senya13]

According to the Associated Press account, "The count had reached four fall and Johansson had just lurched to his feet when the final bell rang."
What do the next two paragraphs of the AP report say?

[Marciano Frazier]

What do the next two paragraphs of the AP report say?
"Referee Andrew Smythe of Ireland, the sole judge, awarded The fight to Johansson, but Said later he probably would have stopped The fight and given it to London if the bell hadn't rung. 'Ingemar was not in a position to defend himself,' Smythe said, 'but he clearly had won more rounds.'
London said he thought he had won, and the crowd, which roundly booed Johansson on his home Grounds, seemed to share his view."

Quite likely you had me quote these two paragraphs in order to bring in the "but still" argument("he may not have been knocked out cold, but he was still bad"), suggesting that Johansson was lucky to escape with the win here. However, I suspect(haven't seen the tape, so this is a little bit of speculation, but it seems very likely) that Johansson was probably not really on guard or focused with five seconds left to go in the fight and was caught by surprise when London tried to seize one last opportunity- in short, I think this was a bit of a fluke, and even still, as I say, Johansson was up at four and not flat out on his back for minutes, which is the story commonly circulated. As to the decision thing, fighters who lose on points, if it's at all competitive, almost always say they think they've won, and the crowd is liable to boo a fighter who wins a boring decision and is losing badly as the fight ends when he was an overwhelming favorite- for example, the crowds booed at the ends of Foreman vs. Peralta and Joe Mesi vs. Monte Barrett and Vassiliy Jirov when the respective formers were given the decisions- this is not because there was anything wrong with the scoring in any of those fights(in fact, it was pretty much spot on in each instance), but because the underdog did better than expected, won the most memorable moments of the fight and was in charge as the fight came to a conclusion, even though that underdog clearly didn't win as many rounds. Other versions I've read(which I don't have the time to get into right now but may pull up later) have agreed with Smythe about the scoring.

[Senya13]

The one I read (from The Daily Review) had the first part broken into two paragraphs, so I wasn't disputing the result, but only wanted to point out other details relevant to the issue, that the KD was bad, according to the opinion of the referee.

[Senya13]

Btw, here's what the Ring magazine printed in April 1984.

Top 10 Glass Jaws of All-Time
1. Floyd Patterson
2. Bob Satterfield
3. Ruby Goldstein
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Tippy Larkin
6. "Phainting" Phill Scott
7. John Tate
8. Joey DeJohn
9. Ken Norton
10. Primo Carnera

[Swedish81]

The swedish press was sometimes mocking Johansson of being stupid. You know the big dumb boxer, but it was somewhat Ingemars own fault.
In an interview he talked about the money he was going to recieve in an upcoming fight and this is a quote. "They wanted to give us 2/3 of the income but I said we wanted at least 50%"

I guess he wasn't that good with numbers. This also in a way lead to pro boxing being illegal in Sweden because in the 50's when Johansson was active no one was allowed to live of their sport. That's why Sweden couldn't use their pro soccerplayers in the 1950 World Cup.

Even if those rules are long gone, professional boxing is still illegal in Sweden but the reason has changed. Now it's because of the brutality and injuries it's not allowed. But kickboxing and stuff is ok because it's a newer sport here. Fuck the government and their double standards.

[Ramon Rojo]

In an interview he talked about the money he was going to recieve in an upcoming fight and this is a quote. "They wanted to give us 2/3 of the income but I said we wanted at least 50%"


Sounds like he was joking.

[ChrisPontius]

Good post MF. I didn't know that it was something reproduced to discredit Johansson. When something is not on film, a lot of fables easily develop. Water turning into wine and all that.

I find it hard to rate Johansson. He absolutely destroyed Machen which no one else ever did again, and Patterson was only knocked out like that against Liston. But he resume is rather thin outside of that. Is he the only champion to have never fought someone with a losing record? Very impressive.

I think there are some analogies between him and Ibeabuchi. Both had very short careers but very impressive wins. Ibeabuchi was not knocked out in a rematch but then again, his win against Tua is debatable.

[Woller]

As I said I have film of that last round!!!

Not a bad knock down.

Woller

[Marciano Frazier]

Good post MF. I didn't know that it was something reproduced to discredit Johansson. When something is not on film, a lot of fables easily develop. Water turning into wine and all that.
The fight is on film, actually, and the story is an exaggeration of reality rather than a pure fable.
And, for the note, oral transmission actually is/has been a surprisingly reliable means of transmission in some cultures where it was the prime mode of communicating information down through generations- for example, entire plays and the like would be transmitted down generation to generation with masters and apprentices working specifically to imprint the entire thing word-for-word in the apprentice's mind.


I find it hard to rate Johansson. He absolutely destroyed Machen which no one else ever did again, and Patterson was only knocked out like that against Liston. But he resume is rather thin outside of that.
He still has wins over Cooper, Erskine, Cavicchi, and most of the other noteworthy European heavyweights of the era outside those two. A little thin, yes, but respectable.

Is he the only champion to have never fought someone with a losing record? Very impressive.
I'm unsure.


I think there are some analogies between him and Ibeabuchi. Both had very short careers but very impressive wins. Ibeabuchi was not knocked out in a rematch but then again, his win against Tua is debatable.
I think Machen and Patterson were better than Byrd and Tua, and Johansson has a much stronger supporting resume outside his two real big wins. Ibeabuchi fought a steady stream of no-names for his first 16 fights, got a debatable decision against Tua, stopped a couple more clubfighters, and then knocked out Byrd- Johansson, on the other hand, was taking on fringe contender level opponents like Bygraves, Cavicchi, Cooper and Erskine at that stage of his career, and proceeded to demolish two actual elite-level opponents who, in my opinion and probably yours, were better than the likes of Byrd and Tua, and win the championship. Johansson has a greater set of accomplishments than Ibeabuchi, in my opinion.

[ChrisPontius]

I agree that Johansson has a bit better accomplishments overall.

I think Byrd is at least as good a win as Machen, although Johansson beat Machen worse than Ibeabuchi beat Byrd.
Patterson is also a better win than Tua, but again, in the end, Johansson lost the series with Patterson.

Johanssons resume outside of the 2 biggest wins certainly is more impressive than Ibeabuchi's outside of his 2 biggest wins. I read on the general forum a year ago that Ibeabuchi had some struggles with Marion Wilson, the indestructible journeyman. I don't know how much merit there is to that claim as i've never seen the fight, but it certainly doesn't make Ibeabuchi's case stronger.

[Dr Z]

Btw, here's what the Ring magazine printed in April 1984.

Top 10 Glass Jaws of All-Time
1. Floyd Patterson
2. Bob Satterfield
3. Ruby Goldstein
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Tippy Larkin
6. "Phainting" Phill Scott
7. John Tate
8. Joey DeJohn
9. Ken Norton
10. Primo Carnera

Never saw this one before. Good find.

[Senya13]

They seemed to have fun back then with such ratings (although their readers diidn't think so, in the feedback column), this one, the worst champions of all times, etc.

[Luigi1985]

Btw, here's what the Ring magazine printed in April 1984.

Top 10 Glass Jaws of All-Time
1. Floyd Patterson
2. Bob Satterfield
3. Ruby Goldstein
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Tippy Larkin
6. "Phainting" Phill Scott
7. John Tate
8. Joey DeJohn
9. Ken Norton
10. Primo Carnera


What a shitty list, now some of you posters here should know gradually why I don´t respect the "The Ring Magazine", zero knowledge and totally biased...

[Senya13]

I could possibly scan the whole article, but that won't change nobody's opinion, so I won't even bother.

[Dr Z]

I could possibly scan the whole article, but that won't change nobody's opinion, so I won't even bother.

It could change opinions. The more data and information you have, the better an opinion can be.

[Senya13]

To say the truth, I think those 'ratings' are silly anyway. Why spread silly knowledge like that. :) There are more interesting things in the Ring. Like we could have posted here monthly ratings from the issues we have. I have about a hundred Ring magazines myself, half of them from 1940-1960's and the other half 1981-1991, and I wanted to scan their rating for myself (so I don't have to browse through the magazines every time), anyway.

[OLD FOGEY]

Btw, here's what the Ring magazine printed in April 1984.

Top 10 Glass Jaws of All-Time
1. Floyd Patterson
2. Bob Satterfield
3. Ruby Goldstein
4. Ingemar Johansson
5. Tippy Larkin
6. "Phainting" Phill Scott
7. John Tate
8. Joey DeJohn
9. Ken Norton
10. Primo Carnera

Johansson was only knocked out by one man, a heavyweight champion,
in his career. This seems a harsh rating. Carnera went a long way and
a lot of fights before he was knocked out at all. Also a harsh rating.
Patterson was only knocked out by heavyweight champions.

[DocDevil]

Truly enjoyed the Ingo report,you guys amaze me with your research capabilities.I had always heard Ingo was counted out.Have a lotta respect for what Ingo accomplished,not my top twenty guy,but enjoy reading about him.I wish the oldest surviving heavyweight champion was in better health.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think Byrd is at least as good a win as Machen, although Johansson beat Machen worse than Ibeabuchi beat Byrd.
I would personally rank Machen ahead of Byrd, but I can see where it's debatable.

Patterson is also a better win than Tua, but again, in the end, Johansson lost the series with Patterson.
Yes, but Ibeabuchi arguably lost to Tua in his win, and didn't have any rematches to lose.

I read on the general forum a year ago that Ibeabuchi had some struggles with Marion Wilson, the indestructible journeyman. I don't know how much merit there is to that claim as i've never seen the fight, but it certainly doesn't make Ibeabuchi's case stronger.
Well, Wilson had just knocked out a 17-2 opponent in one round and then held Orlin Norris to a split decision at the time. Looking at his last few fights, he was giving a lot of respectable gatekeeper-types tough times and even occasionally beating them, so a prospect struggling with him might not be a total black mark.

[Marciano Frazier]

Johansson was only knocked out by one man, a heavyweight champion,
in his career. This seems a harsh rating. Carnera went a long way and
a lot of fights before he was knocked out at all. Also a harsh rating.
Patterson was only knocked out by heavyweight champions. That whole list seems rather poorly done- I would've thought it was an ESPN list if I didn't know it was from the RING. It has that quality of being made up almost entirely of the guys who would first pop into you head and being badly weighted towards heavyweights, much like the ESPN lists that are supposed to be pound-for-pound but always have four of the top five be heavyweights, usually with Sugar Ray Robinson mixed in, and then add a bunch of undeserving heavyweights down the lower half(Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield in the top 20 pound-for-pound of all time?!?).