LWT Tourney semi - Whitaker v B. Leonard

[Bill Butcher]

2 boxing masters who never were outboxed at their peak, what gives as they try to outfox each other.

You have 2 days to vote & dont forget as pep just beat saddler in the fwt final by just ONE vote.

Pernell & Benny go at it to find out just who really was the slickest LWT who ever lived but in the final waiting will be either duran or chavez so a complete change of strategy will be in order (for both semi-final winners)

Get voting.

[brownpimp88]

whitaker via wide ud.

[jaywilton]

My heart-and head-say Benny Leonard.There is one film of him on youtube the last time I looked;Lew Tendler I.Tendler was lefthanded-and like Leonard and Whitaker-is in the Hall of Fame.Their first fight in 1922 was supposed to be one of Leonard's toughest;I'm not sure,but it set up their rematch which soldout Yankee Stadium in 1923.Leonard,accordingf to what I've read,won easily.Leonard had over 200 fights.I love Pernell Whitaker;my ultimate dream fight is Leonard against Duran.Regardless of who wins,I still say the Leonard of the first Tendler fight in 1922 is the earliest example of any fighter I associate with advanced modern technique/skill.

[Bill Butcher]

Whitaker never (really) lost or came close to losing at lwt & I THINK benny did but it would still be very close.

I go for whitaker but Ive seen more of him aswell dont forget.

[radianttwilight]

I'm torn on this one. My head says Whitaker could take anything Leonard could throw at him, but I really don't know ANYTHING about Leonard.

I'll make my decision based on the old-timer/new-school factor. Whitaker was slick as hell, but most old-timer lightweights from the 20s/30s were slick, too. I would favor Whitaker over ANY "conventional" lightweight from the older era, but I think we HIGHLY underestimate the slickness and ability of the unorthodox fighters from past eras...and Leonard was something of a slickster, no?

Whitaker would humiliate any orthodox fighter from the 1920/1930s (just as he did in the 1990s), but I don't think he could handle a slickster from that era, fighters fought in a much different manner back then.

Leonard via SD. Whitaker spends most of the fight trying to figure out this unorthodox, unconventional fighter, and suffers because of it.

[radianttwilight]

Oh Jesus, if you knew something about him or his style and made a post like that I would except it, but come on dude, seriously?

You basically imagined what he would fight like and said he would beat Whitaker because of it.

To inform you more of Leonard, why not simply watch the vids posted above? Do you think that guy is slicker and better than Pea?

I did watch the video. Whitaker could outslick MODERN fighters, but I see a fight with Leonard going differently.

Older fighters may use inferior tactics/techniques, but to beat Whitaker you need to get creative.

[Stonehands89]

So you think the guy you saw in this vid...

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...would beat this guy?

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The "guy" in the first video was Benny Leonard, who bridged the gap between the pioneers and the modern boxer. He was extraordinary partly because he had no precedent. He also had experience that would shame Pernell. He fought in a tougher time against tougher men. Those are not opinions, those are facts.

That being said, the film is old, jumpy, silent, grainy, and from one far-off angle. It's tough to even distinguish between Benny and Lew. Pernell's video, by contrast, is in blazing color, from about 3 angles including close-ups, is full of snapshots designed to glorify him at his best, and then there's music in it to get your heart pounding.

You seem to want to show these two films -one poor quality and one modern quality- to the media-crazed youth of the world and ask them which is better based on the film quality alone...

...that's a bit like asking which movie is better Nosferatu (also 1922) or Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. Kids with ADD will choose the latter, the mature and the knowledgable, the former.

[mightyd40]

pea, take it easy haha anytime whitaker comes up u get so damn hostel......i would vote for pea via decision

[Stonehands89]

So kids with ADD will choose Whitaker, the mature and knowledgable will choose Leonard?
Not necessarily. The preceding sentence is the point.

If Pernell was taped using cameras from 70 years earlier, he would not look so dazzling. Nor would Tyson look so devastating. Nor would Chavez's little pivots inside be spotted.

[mightyd40]

Not necessarily. The preceding sentence is the point.

If Pernell was taped using cameras from 70 years earlier, he would not look so dazzling. Nor would Tyson look so devastating. Nor would Chavez's little pivots inside be spotted.
maybe not, but if leonard was taped using cameras from peas time, i dont think he would look as dazzling as pea did anyway.

[Stonehands89]

Also, it means not a damn thing how shitty the quality of the video is, it doesn't make their hands appear further out then they need to be and their technique to be inferior. Watch their technique and compare it, I care nothing about their speed or any of that. Same thing with footage of someone like Jimmy Wilde, watch him and watch his technique, not the color or speed. It's pretty obvious the difference. No?

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No.

Jimmy Wilde isn't Benny Leonard. The Wilde footage is from 6 years earlier than Leonard-Tendler and I stated plainly that it is Benny that bridges the gap. Benny Leonard and the word "inferior" should never be in the same sentence, and you should be corrected for such an assertion. Don't go in any gyms around here talking that ragtime --You'll get a stogie stuck in your eyeball by a grizzled old cutman.

Anyone who has been here for a while knows that I am not of the Janitor/Cross-Trainer mindset when it comes to late 19th century/early 20th century fighters. I simply do not accept that the skill of Choynski was comparable with the skill of Louis, or that Charlie Mitchell's boxing prowess was comparable to Mike McCallum's. There are a few exceptions that I accept. Gans, for instance. But overall, the dearth of film prevents objective analysis and newspaper accounts were simply not reliable. Additionally, skill evolves over time and with experience... it is no wonder to me that technique became more streamlined over a greater demographic of boxers in the 1930s -the watershed period in my book.

But Leonard was the man standing and pointing this a'way. And your critique of his hand placement falls flat. He extended his left as a matador does a red cape... Lew could bang like hell and it is not unwise to do what he did. Do you offer the same criticisms to Lewis and Ali? To Hearns? On the other hand, you fail to acknowledge Benny's fluid mobility and the angles he stepped to on every Tendler rush. You fail to see the crisp shots launched with perfect timing.

You are blind to the mastery that is in front of you.

[Stonehands89]

maybe not, but if leonard was taped using cameras from peas time, i dont think he would look as dazzling as pea did anyway.
Perhaps not, but he would sure as hell look more devestating. He was a boxer-puncher extraordinaire -until Robinson, he was the standard of boxer-punchers.

[brooklyn1550]

Whitaker UD

[Stonehands89]

Fair enough.

In that case though, how can you be sure he beats Whitaker if you can't tell how good he actually fought, even when film is right in front of you?

I can tell with a guy like Robinson or guys like that of a bit later, but I simply don't see it with Leonard, at least not with that footage.
I appreciate your reconsidering. I am not 100% that any LW who ever lived can beat Whitaker. There are only 2 or 3 that I would favor over him and that is it --and none more than a 60% edge. Whitaker was extremely complex.

Leonard's footage is such that you really have to strain to see what he is doing. Watch it again sometime, but be fair, put on Cavalleria Rusticana from Raging Bull playing with it. Ignore the stance which I will give you hearkens backwards... watch instead the strategy, the efficient mobility, the side steps, the angles, the defense, and although we cannot hope to get a taste of his offensive capability, look at the shots he places. Keep in mind that Lew had at fighttime, a record of 93-5.

[Stonehands89]

Bedtime for me. Good night....

[Robbi]

Bedtime for me. Good night....

Later mate.

[Robbi]

Sweet Pea. Post those Whitaker GIF's in here for Stonehands. They are brief footage, but he'll like the moves.

[Robbi]

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The clip at the top. His head movement when slipping ridicluous. He slips both ways and his head movement extremely tight and precise.

[Robbi]

The one part where he does the bob and weave back, forth, up, and down and is literally not even touched by Ramirez is one of my favorite boxing moments.

Round 7 on the Ramirez clip. :good

[Stonehands89]

Thanks for posting the clips. Whitaker is, along with Pep, at the very top of the heap of defensive specialists. He had radar & flexibility second to none and he was good enough to slip shots -and combinations of shots- by inches in the pocket. Again, this from the inherently complex southpaw position.

[Holmes' Jab]

Whitaker, via close UD.

[Bill Butcher]

Great clips, I have both fights at home.

I personally think that whitaker in the top clip (vs ramirez 2) was pernell`s absolute peak performance, even above nelson & haugen, for me anyway.

I made my own video tape (a 4 hr tape) featuring all my favourite boxing dominations of all time (I named it masterclasses :yep ) & it consists of....
Ali vs Williams
Leonard vs Green
Whitaker vs Ramirez 2
Naseem vs Robinson
Hopkins vs Trinidad
Ali vs Terrell

You know what ?
The whitaker ramirez fight MIGHT just top the lot as far as just plain schooling another good fighter... that whitaker might beat any lwt ever including leonard.

Whitaker UD Leonard

[196osh]

I have never seen leonard fight before apart from in that video that sweet pea posted.

From what i saw Whittaker would win a UD over 12 or 15. He would make Leonard miss and then make him pay. He would be too busy and to slick.

[pryorgatti]

I agree with you Bill. The Whitaker vs Ramirez rematch makes me think that version of pea is the most SKILLED fighter ever, very high H2H. Just my opinion.

[Bill Butcher]

Pernell`s cornerman was telling him between rds in the ramirez rematch... `ray robinson never did this any better`

The commentator was quick to laugh & say he was getting a little carried away.

SRR was the best ever but to do what whitaker did in his career without a solid punch shows ungodly boxing skills IMO.

[jaywilton]

Sweet Pea,I saw Whitaker fight much more than Leonard.I'm sticking with Leonard.I loved watching Whitaker,but I think Dela Hoya,for example,won their fight(and I think Whitaker got robbed against Chavez).

[ripcity]

I voted for Leonard.
In the past I have stated that I conseder these two #1Whitaker and #2 Leonard P4P.
I think Leonard is a little bit bitter at lightweight. However this is an exlent match up both of them had outstanding boxing skills and both of them ould hit with power allthough I think Leonard had more power than Whitaker.
This should be the final in my opinion Duran, Gans, Ortiz, Chavez or any other lightweight. have nothing on Leonard and Whitaker.