Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

[Bad_Intentions]

Marciano was never Knocked out, but was sure knocked down, and he got hit many times in the chin and was hard to bring him down.

Frazier took alot of punishments against foreman and in the manila fight.

but in your honest opinion, which of these 2 hall of famers do YOU think has the strongest chin???.

Post and Vote.

[unitas]

toss a coin. marciano never got hit by foreman. so who knows.

[Marciano Frazier]

Marciano- he wasn't wobbled, floored or stopped as often as Frazier at any stage of his career.

[hobgoblin]

Don't know. We know that both could take a long, steady beating i.e. lots of punishment. They were tough. But we don't know how Marciano would deal with a HIGH AMPLITUDE OF POWER shot from Lennox Lewis, who hit much harder than Archie Moore (most KOs ever of all fighters) or Ezzard Charles (who killed in the ring).

[Bad_Intentions]

Don't know. We know that both could take a long, steady beating i.e. lots of punishment. They were tough. But we don't know how Marciano would deal with a HIGH AMPLITUDE OF POWER shot from Lennox Lewis, who hit much harder than Archie Moore (most KOs ever of all fighters) or Ezzard Charles (who killed in the ring).hey bro, who's the chick in your avataar?

[robert ungurean]

Ill go with Rock

[rekcutnevets]

I think some of you are making a good point about Marciano not facing as hard a puncher as Frazier. That makes this one hard to call.

Marciano was floored, but was usually coming forward and hit while doing so. He never looked hurt. It may not be fair to say how he would stand up to larger shots, when he never really looked fazed by what did hit him.

Frazier's chin was tested by Foreman, and failed. It stood up to everyone else he faced.

The only thing I can base my decision on is how Frazier looked when others were hitting him. He looked like he was pushing thru when some were hitting him. Like it bothered him, but he was coming anyway. I never really saw Marciano with that look. It was like he was coming, and it didn't hurt.

Sorry, but that's all I can base this on. If I have to answer, Marciano.

[hobgoblin]

I think some of you are making a good point about Marciano not facing as hard a puncher as Frazier. That makes this one hard to call.

Marciano was floored, but was usually coming forward and hit while doing so. He never looked hurt. It may not be fair to say how he would stand up to larger shots, when he never really looked fazed by what did hit him.

Frazier's chin was tested by Foreman, and failed. It stood up to everyone else he faced.

The only thing I can base my decision on is how Frazier looked when others were hitting him. He looked like he was pushing thru when some were hitting him. Like it bothered him, but he was coming anyway. I never really saw Marciano with that look. It was like he was coming, and it didn't hurt.

Sorry, but that's all I can base this on. If I have to answer, Marciano.

This is not fair at all. People base Marciano's performance against guys who don't hit nearly as hard as Foreman and then judge Foreman against a guy considered by many to have the most power in both hands. If Marciano had to face George Foreman, he'd looked pretty bothered too and would probably do no better than Frazier.

[rekcutnevets]

Okay. It's fair to say that Foreman would hurt Marciano, without seeing Foreman hurt Marciano. How are you basing your decision? Marciano did not face a puncher in Foreman's league, so you have to take Foreman out of the equation. What are you left with? Their reactions to other's punches.

You may think it is unfair to give someone the nod in a question with no way to prove the results, but I still say Marciano. I won't care if you say Frazier.

[Bummy Davis]

Marciano was suposed to be a guy that was hit often, yet he was only dropped twice, he recuped very fast and the force of the punches seemed to be the thing that dropped him because he rose fast, Frazier was dropped by Bonavena 2 times who was a clubber but lets face it O.B. could not wobble Patterson and Who did Oscar KO, A fighter that can throw a pinpoint power punch like Walcott, Moore and Charles can sometimes be more effective than a hard punching but slow clubber like Foreman because they can land punches that a Foreman can not, Walcott showed his hook vs Charles and also vs Marciano but he had a right hand also, he dropped Louis 3 times, Anyway Frazier got up 6 times vs Foreman and I think 2 times in the rematch, twice vs Bonavena and once vs another early foe so I think Frazier had a good chin but Marciano was never really hurt or in danger of being stopped, Marciano had an ELITE chin, Frazier had a very good one, Marciano had Elite recup power, Frazier had good recup power

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier's son Marvis did not have a good chin but we will have to BLAME that on his MOMMA :yep :lol: ;)

[hobgoblin]

If you take out the last 5 fights of Roy Jones Jr - his chin is even better than Marciano's (and yes, RJJ did get tagged a few times).To put Marciano's chin as "elite" he MUST have faced an ELITE puncher with the power of someone like Dempsey or Foreman. The correct answer to this one is: can't tell IMO.

[Marciano Frazier]

This is not fair at all. People base Marciano's performance against guys who don't hit nearly as hard as Foreman and then judge Foreman against a guy considered by many to have the most power in both hands. If Marciano had to face George Foreman, he'd looked pretty bothered too and would probably do no better than Frazier.
Yes, it isn't fair to say Marciano's chin was better because he was knocked out by Foreman. But compare each guy's performances against similar levels of fighters and punchers. Frazier was decked during his amateur career(Marciano wasn't), Frazier took a standing-eight against no-name Mike Bruce(no such opponent ever did such to Marciano), Frazier was decked twice and seriously hurt against Bonavena(no one ever hurt Marciano that badly), and Frazier looks visibly rocked at times on film against the likes of Ramos and Ali(Marciano never really looks wobbled by the other man's punches on film). On the other hand, Marciano was never floored as an amateur, never down in his first 42 pro fights, and suffered only two extremely brief knockdowns against powerful hitters who each landed some of their best shots and were unable to seriously stagger him or accomplish anything more than a flash knockdown. It seems apparent to me that Marciano was rocked and dropped less often than Frazier at any given stage of their careers and against any given level of puncher. The reasonable conclusion here is that Marciano was probably the more durable man.

[Bummy Davis]

Yes, it isn't fair to say Marciano's chin was better because he was knocked out by Foreman. But compare each guy's performances against similar levels of fighters and punchers. Frazier was decked during his amateur career(Marciano wasn't), Frazier took a standing-eight against no-name Mike Bruce(no such opponent ever did such to Marciano), Frazier was decked twice and seriously hurt against Bonavena(no one ever hurt Marciano that badly), and Frazier looks visibly rocked at times on film against the likes of Ramos and Ali(Marciano never really looks wobbled by the other man's punches on film). On the other hand, Marciano was never floored as an amateur, never down in his first 42 pro fights, and suffered only two extremely brief knockdowns against powerful hitters who each landed some of their best shots and were unable to seriously stagger him or accomplish anything more than a flash knockdown. It seems apparent to me that Marciano was rocked and dropped less often than Frazier at any given stage of their careers and against any given level of puncher. The reasonable conclusion here is that Marciano was probably the more durable man.


:good :good :good

[janitor]

I go with Marciano because Frazier was droped more often and by lesser punchers.

If the worst puncher to put you on the deck was either Joe Walcott or Archie Moore then it is fair to say that your chin is prety solid.

Conversley, if you don't think that Marciano's chin was all that then you have to upgrade your estimate of his defence.

[MachineGunMitch]

Marciano- he wasn't wobbled, floored or stopped as often as Frazier at any stage of his career.

marciano never fought the caliber of fighters frazier has....
both would make for a killer fight though

[Marciano Frazier]

marciano never fought the caliber of fighters frazier has....
both would make for a killer fight though See my second post in this thread.

[Duodenum]

When I throw out out the Foreman fights, I'm left with Bonavena I, and Ali II (in the second round). Nobody ever drove Marciano backwards with their punches the way Ali drove back Frazier with his bombs before Tony Perez broke it up. (Isn't it interesting, that Marciano's trainer was also the guy who developed Ringo into a contender.) The first guy who dropped Rocky also had Louis on the deck thrice, and won the HW Title with a one punch kayo of his own. The second guy who dropped Rocky was rated a harder puncher than Marciano by the only man to go the distance with Rocky twice. That second AGT also trained the hardest puncher in boxing history on how to cultivate his power.

Even if Frazier had never faced Foreman, I would give Rocky the edge on this one.

[Ramon Rojo]

Frazier had better chin, Rocky never faced big punchers and he was shaken by light heavyweight guys.

[frankwornank]

:yikes ALWAYS LIKED JOE FRAZIER AND HE HAD A PRETTY GOOD CHIN. MARCIANO HAD A GREAT CHIN.

[hobgoblin]

Yes, it isn't fair to say Marciano's chin was better because he was knocked out by Foreman. But compare each guy's performances against similar levels of fighters and punchers. Frazier was decked during his amateur career(Marciano wasn't), Frazier took a standing-eight against no-name Mike Bruce(no such opponent ever did such to Marciano), Frazier was decked twice and seriously hurt against Bonavena(no one ever hurt Marciano that badly), and Frazier looks visibly rocked at times on film against the likes of Ramos and Ali(Marciano never really looks wobbled by the other man's punches on film). On the other hand, Marciano was never floored as an amateur, never down in his first 42 pro fights, and suffered only two extremely brief knockdowns against powerful hitters who each landed some of their best shots and were unable to seriously stagger him or accomplish anything more than a flash knockdown. It seems apparent to me that Marciano was rocked and dropped less often than Frazier at any given stage of their careers and against any given level of puncher. The reasonable conclusion here is that Marciano was probably the more durable man.

Undoubtedly, one cannot interpolate how well someone can take a very powerful punch based on how the figher handles moderate punches (relatively). It doesn't work like that. Alex Stewart went the distance against a prime Evander Holyfield whereas Mike Tyson was stopped. Evander Holyfield provided a steady beating but not the kind of high amplitude power that someone like Foreman could provide. Alex Stewart seemed to indicate that he could take a steady beating better than Tyson - so can one interpolate and say he takes a very hard punch better? Obviously not because Stewart couldn't last a single round against a very hard puncher (Tyson himself) whereas Mike Tyson could last for several rounds of very hard punches. So overall, Tyson had a better chin than Stewart but you wouldn't know that if you looked at just Holyfield. Same Lennox Lewis - he wasn't often rocked by Holy because he could handle moderate power - but land a single straight right from someone like Foreman and he's gone immediately. He did not have a better chin than Tyson - but you wouldn't know that if you based it just one how someone handles the moderate power of Holyfield (once could argue that styles of fighters also determines success - but I'm willing to look at a single punch when it lands).

Additionally, there's lots of room for error in boxing. Can you explain why Muhammad Ali was decked by Henry Cooper but never came close to hitting the deck when taking some monster punches from Liston & Foreman (who DID land some good shots to the chin). Can you explain how Tex Cobb was KO'd in 1 round? (coke?). Some guys are reading into it too much. You need lots of samples to have a clear indication that is above that "noise" or that "uncertainty". Frazier getting shaken by Ali in round 2 - you can't make conclusions on this. The sample is too small. Shit happens - but does that happen consistently? With a small sample like that - you cannot tell. A standing eight count in the amateur career doesn't mean a whole lot (you are still green and developing, they are super safe with young amateurs).

The fact that Marciano was decked twice really opens him up to doubt about giving him the benefit of the doubt. It makes you wonder what would happen against Foreman & Ali. He wouldn't do better than Frazier. Frazier is actually PROVEN to be able to handle very powerful punches. Against Foreman - he proved he could take many powerful shots and still be able to fight - that is chin!

Those methods of comparison to predict Marciano being able to handle VERY POWERFUL punches are not reliable at all (hardly better than a guess really - look at Lennox Lewis - if it wasn't for those two single shots, we'd say he has a granite chin - the record would show too). And people are looking too much into details that have lots of artificats and noise. What is fact, is that Frazier is MORE TESTED and proven in his chin than Marciano - as he showed his chin against Foreman.

To the chap who said Frazier's chin "failed" against Foreman. It did not. Fraizier was still able to fight but stylistically Foreman was able to tee off. ANYONE would have to stop (OK, maybe not Tex Cobb) if Foreman can punch them at will and keep them off range - ANYONE - it is a stylistic thing - not a matter of chin.

If I had to put money - I'd say Frazier as he is more proven.

[hobgoblin]

When I throw out out the Foreman fights, I'm left with Bonavena I, and Ali II (in the second round).

That is very little information to make conclusions on. You mention round 2 of Ali 2? I remember that - you can't conclude a whole lot from that. It was the SPEED of the punch that stunned Frazier. I'm certain that this kind of stuff would happen to Marciano also had he fought Muhammad Ali.

Isn't it interesting, that Marciano's trainer was also the guy who developed Ringo into a contender.) The first guy who dropped Rocky also had Louis on the deck thrice, and won the HW Title with a one punch kayo of his own. The second guy who dropped Rocky was rated a harder puncher than Marciano by the only man to go the distance with Rocky twice. That second AGT also trained the hardest puncher in boxing history on how to cultivate his power.

This is all irrelevant how Marciano would do againt Foreman. Moore is not Foreman when it comes to punching power. As for Moore cultivating Foreman's power - that isn't true and if it is, Moore should be ashamed of himself. Foreman was a lousy puncher - he was just blessed with incredible natural power.

Even if Frazier had never faced Foreman, I would give Rocky the edge on this one

I'm very skeptical of your basis.

[Dempsey1238]

I belive Goldmill was decease by the time Ringo started fighting. I dont see how Marciano's trainer develpoed Ringo.

[Duodenum]

As for Moore cultivating Foreman's power - that isn't true My screw-up. I meant to say Shavers, not Foreman. (I'd just posted to a thread concerning Foreman, and failed to make the mental shift from subject to subject.) I've warned members of this board before about my tendency to reverse words and names like this, but if I can't get a handle on what I mean to actually communicate, then I'd better start thinking about leaving ESB permanently. Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable.

[hobgoblin]

but if I can't get a handle on what I mean to actually communicate, then I'd better start thinking about leaving ESB permanently. Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable.
This is a forum with variety. Yes, there are very informed and mature posters. All sorts of ages. But there are lots of 12 year olds too. This is NOT a "professional" forum for the elite or anything.

"Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable"

Hahaha. This is not a professional conference. It's bar talk. Say whatever you want, however you want. People here say stupid things so often - and sometimes - the poor chap just can't help it. There are PLENTY OF MISTAKES here.

Technically: you didn't mention Foreman or Shavers so perhaps I was wrong to assume Foreman, as Shavers himself fits the bill too (and much better).

[Duodenum]

This is a forum with variety. Yes, there are very informed and mature posters. All sorts of ages. But there are lots of 12 year olds too. This is NOT a "professional" forum for the elite or anything.

"Mistakes like this are simply not acceptable"

Hahaha. This is not a professional conference. It's bar talk. Say whatever you want, however the fuck you want, etc. :hey

Technically: you didn't mention Foreman or Shavers so perhaps I was wrong to assume Foreman, as Shavers himself fits the bill too (and much better).Yeah, maybe so, but I've been a bartender, and am trying to distance myself from that a little, in favor of some civilized discourse (albeit about what many consider a barbaric subject).

(Hey, if I wanted to interact with lots of 12 year olds, I'd be spending all my time on the General Forum!) Dammit, you're right, I didn't mention Foreman. (Whew! Whatta relief! I won't have to get screened for Alzheimer's after all!)

[Vantage_West]

Marciano- he wasn't wobbled, floored or stopped as often as Frazier at any stage of his career.frazier was dropped only by ....one guy marciano had been dropped by not even powerpunchers just guys whpo can throw the punch in the general direction

[NickHudson]

Yeah, spot on.


Don't know. We know that both could take a long, steady beating i.e. lots of punishment. They were tough. But we don't know how Marciano would deal with a HIGH AMPLITUDE OF POWER shot from Lennox Lewis, who hit much harder than Archie Moore (most KOs ever of all fighters) or Ezzard Charles (who killed in the ring).

[NickHudson]

I think the Foreman and Ali fights show Fraziers recouperative power to be super-eilte, not good.

Marciano was suposed to be a guy that was hit often, yet he was only dropped twice, he recuped very fast and the force of the punches seemed to be the thing that dropped him because he rose fast, Frazier was dropped by Bonavena 2 times who was a clubber but lets face it O.B. could not wobble Patterson and Who did Oscar KO, A fighter that can throw a pinpoint power punch like Walcott, Moore and Charles can sometimes be more effective than a hard punching but slow clubber like Foreman because they can land punches that a Foreman can not, Walcott showed his hook vs Charles and also vs Marciano but he had a right hand also, he dropped Louis 3 times, Anyway Frazier got up 6 times vs Foreman and I think 2 times in the rematch, twice vs Bonavena and once vs another early foe so I think Frazier had a good chin but Marciano was never really hurt or in danger of being stopped, Marciano had an ELITE chin, Frazier had a very good one, Marciano had Elite recup power, Frazier had good recup power

[C. M. Clay II]

Frazier's chin was more tested, but IDK, I'll say it's about even.:good

[Marciano Frazier]

Undoubtedly, one cannot interpolate how well someone can take a very powerful punch based on how the figher handles moderate punches (relatively). It doesn't work like that.
More often than not, it does. A guy who stands up well to moderate-level punchers is more likely to stand up to high-level ones than a guy who doesn't.

Alex Stewart went the distance against a prime Evander Holyfield whereas Mike Tyson was stopped. Evander Holyfield provided a steady beating but not the kind of high amplitude power that someone like Foreman could provide. Alex Stewart seemed to indicate that he could take a steady beating better than Tyson - so can one interpolate and say he takes a very hard punch better? Obviously not because Stewart couldn't last a single round against a very hard puncher (Tyson himself) whereas Mike Tyson could last for several rounds of very hard punches. So overall, Tyson had a better chin than Stewart but you wouldn't know that if you looked at just Holyfield.
On what basis do you make being able to take one very hard punch more valuable than being able to take many pretty hard punches? Why should a guy who can take one huge wallop on the jaw without flinching, but crumbles under sustained pressure be given the edge over a guy who might go down from one big shot but can keep taking punishment all night long without staying down? What makes you think the first guy in this situation has the better chin "overall"?

Additionally, there's lots of room for error in boxing. Can you explain why Muhammad Ali was decked by Henry Cooper but never came close to hitting the deck when taking some monster punches from Liston & Foreman (who DID land some good shots to the chin). Can you explain how Tex Cobb was KO'd in 1 round? (coke?). Some guys are reading into it too much. You need lots of samples to have a clear indication that is above that "noise" or that "uncertainty". Frazier getting shaken by Ali in round 2 - you can't make conclusions on this. The sample is too small. Shit happens - but does that happen consistently? With a small sample like that - you cannot tell. A standing eight count in the amateur career doesn't mean a whole lot (you are still green and developing, they are super safe with young amateurs).
I'm quite aware of all this. Note that I said that "the reasonable conclusion is that Marciano was probably the more durable man." I didn't say "Marciano takes a better punch, and anyone who disagrees is some form of obscene expletive" or somesuch. Rather, that since Marciano was wobbled and dropped less often than Frazier in each stage of their respective careers and even against the same level of puncher, the most likely conclusion is that Marciano probably had a better chin.

The fact that Marciano was decked twice really opens him up to doubt about giving him the benefit of the doubt. It makes you wonder what would happen against Foreman & Ali. He wouldn't do better than Frazier.
Your logic was very sound in large portions above, but you don't seem to be carrying it over at all here. Marciano was down for two-and-three counts against Walcott and Moore, sure, but Ali was decked by Henry Cooper, Sonny Banks, and Chuck Wepner, Foreman was dropped by Jimmy Young, Ali and Chuck Wepner, Liston was downed by Marti Marshall and Leotis Martin, Dempsey was dropped by Johnny Sudenberg, Fireman Jim Flynn, and others, Holyfield was dropped by Bert Cooper and James Toney, Holmes was down against Kevin Isaac and Renaldo Snipes, etc., and every one of those men stood up against top-notch power punchers in spite of it. Every one of those men was floored and hurt by far inferior fighters and punchers to Walcott and Moore, but was quite obviously capable of standing up at the highest level. Against the level of punchers he fought, Marciano stood up better and more consistently than virtually anyone.

Those methods of comparison to predict Marciano being able to handle VERY POWERFUL punches are not reliable at all (hardly better than a guess really - look at Lennox Lewis - if it wasn't for those two single shots, we'd say he has a granite chin - the record would show too).
Again, why are you assuming that the most important part of durability is being able to stand up to "VERY POWERFUL" punches? Why is that more important than being able to stand up to large accumulations of moderately powerful punches? Would not each asset serve its owner equally well against different opponents? A guy who can take one powerful shot well but breaks down under an accumulation and a guy who can be hurt with one shot but can take punishment all night are theoretically equally durable in my view. It's the ones who can do both that have the truly top-notch chins. We know that Marciano can do the first as well as anyone. Whether he was equally strong in the second facet is impossible to know for certain, but again, we have no specific reason to think he wasn't.

And people are looking too much into details that have lots of artificats and noise.
Again, if you want to compare two fighters' careers, these "details" are important. If they're skewed and can be interpreted either way, it isn't particularly meaningful. But since in this case, they are consistent(Marciano was floored and hurt less as an amateur, as a young professional, as a contender and as a champion, and against the same level of hitter), they constitute sound reason to recognize an apparent gap between these men's respective levels of durability.


If I had to put money - I'd say Frazier as he is more proven.
Again, I would bet Marciano, because he stood up better in every way which we can directly compare them.

[hobgoblin]

More often than not, it does. A guy who stands up well to moderate-level punchers is more likely to stand up to high-level ones than a guy who doesn't.
I disagree is I don't see any consistent correlation.

On what basis do you make being able to take one very hard punch more valuable than being able to take many pretty hard punches? Why should a guy who can take one huge wallop on the jaw without flinching, but crumbles under sustained pressure be given the edge over a guy who might go down from one big shot but can keep taking punishment all night long without staying down? What makes you think the first guy in this situation has the better chin "overall"?
Again, why are you assuming that the most important part of durability is being able to stand up to "VERY POWERFUL" punches? Why is that more important than being able to stand up to large accumulations of moderately powerful punches? Would not each asset serve its owner equally well against different opponents? A guy who can take one powerful shot well but breaks down under an accumulation and a guy who can be hurt with one shot but can take punishment all night are theoretically equally durable in my view. It's the ones who can do both that have the truly top-notch chins. We know that Marciano can do the first as well as anyone. Whether he was equally strong in the second facet is impossible to know for certain, but again, we have no specific reason to think he wasn't.

Several reasons. First, the difference between Marciano and Frazier in ability to take moderate, steady beatings is not significant (many consider Ali-Frazier III the most brutal exchange of punishment between hws and Frazier could have finished it. Besides, we care for his chin that did not let him down in that fight- not his skin). In a different way, even if Marciano has a better record against moderate power punchers, the difference is small enough that being able to take high amplitude punches brings Frazier's chin on top. So even if you don't think such an consideration of being able to take hard punches if necessary in general, it is in this specific case.

In complete contast to you, I think being able to take a single hard punch (which does not mean that you take it and are still standing but dead on your feet) indicates that your CHIN can handle a steady beating. It does NOT indicate that you have the conditioning (ability to handle body punching), the heart, or stamina to be able to handle a steady beating. However, all this is irrelevant to the chin alone and even then, Frazier is as highly qualified as anyone in those factors.

As an exteme exaggeration to make my point, what if we find out that Marciano is like a Lennox Lewis who takes moderate punches (surely the string of punchers Lennox faced laid SOMETHING on him but he took it) but doesn't take very hard punches as well as Smokin' Joe. This is the reason why people rate Lewis' chin as average (or in some cases, glass). IF we found out something like that - then I guarantee majority of voters would switch sides to Frazier (who did show he can take several high amplitude shots and still be on his feet!). Has Vitali ever taken a steady beating like say George Foreman against Holy? No. Yet, just him being able to handle well a single uppercut against Lennox Lewis makes everyone (including me) jump to the idea that Vitali has an excellent chin. A single uppercut is what made a lot put money on Vitali's chin (even before Sanders etc).

With me refusing to accept that being able to take a steady beating implies on can take a very hard shot: I KNOW what is undrer the trunk (hahaha) with Frazier whereas I don't with Marciano. This makes me more comfortable to put money on Frazier whereas with Marciano it is no better than a guess.

I have nothing against Rocky - I think he would beat Joe Frazier in a head to head match up since he is more two handed against the Frazier whose one eye made him less two handed. I also wish to disagree with the mass and I do believe in the idea of Frazier being more proven.

The real answer is we don't know. We'd need to see something like Rocky vs Tyson.

[hobgoblin]

Frazier's chin was more tested, but IDK, I'll say it's about even.:good

:good

[Marciano Frazier]

I disagree is I don't see any consistent correlation.

Several reasons. First, the difference between Marciano and Frazier in ability to take moderate, steady beatings is not significant (many consider Ali-Frazier III the most brutal exchange of punishment between hws and Frazier could have finished it. Besides, we care for his chin that did not let him down in that fight- not his skin).
Who was wobbled/dropped more as an amateur and an early pro? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his rise to the championship? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his high-level performances? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more against moderate-level punchers? Frazier. It's true that we don't have a direct comparison of how they each stand up against herculean one-punch hitters, but in the areas we can compare them, Marciano wins.



In a different way, even if Marciano has a better record against moderate power punchers, the difference is small enough that being able to take high amplitude punches brings Frazier's chin on top. So even if you don't think such an consideration of being able to take hard punches if necessary in general, it is in this specific case.
No, I think being able to take singular hard punches is always worth consideration- it's just that it isn't the only important criterion.

In complete contast to you, I think being able to take a single hard punch (which does not mean that you take it and are still standing but dead on your feet) indicates that your CHIN can handle a steady beating. It does NOT indicate that you have the conditioning (ability to handle body punching), the heart, or stamina to be able to handle a steady beating. However, all this is irrelevant to the chin alone and even then, Frazier is as highly qualified as anyone in those factors.
Durability, like most attributes of a human body, is a complicated thing. It isn't black and white. Some guys are easy to phase with a single punch, but they snap back to their senses very quickly, while other guys are hard to phase with one shot, but once they are phased, they can't recover and proceed to be knocked out. Some guys are easily buzzed, but have good instincts and are able to fight through it/cover it up, while other guys who might be harder to buzz don't know what to and make it more obvious when they are, which might make them easier to be knocked out and perceived as less durable.
In Frazier's case, you have a guy who can be rocked or floored more easily than some- he was staggered by a few lesser fighters and Foreman bounced him up and down like a basketball- but who is darned near impossible to actually knock out, ie separate from his senses and leave him helpless. He can be rocked or floored, but he is near-impossible to actually knock out and can get up from practically anything. On the other hand, you have guys like, say, Tyson, who are very, very difficult to put down with a single shot or a single barrage, but with whom, once you break past that durability threshold, are liable to be clean knocked out when they do go down.
Imagine there are two reeds you're trying to break. One is relatively moist and soft. When you go to break it, it bends fairly easily under force and seems malleable. However, you find that no matter how far you bend it or twist it, it stays elastic and just won't snap. The other is dry and hard- you push and heave mightily and can't seem to get it to bend an inch, but once you finally apply enough pressure, it breaks clean in half. Sometimes the malleable reed proves harder to break than the brittle one.

As an exteme exaggeration to make my point, what if we find out that Marciano is like a Lennox Lewis who takes moderate punches (surely the string of punchers Lennox faced laid SOMETHING on him but he took it) but doesn't take very hard punches as well as Smokin' Joe. This is the reason why people rate Lewis' chin as average (or in some cases, glass).
Yes, but Lewis didn't take any extended batterings, either. Marciano had fights in which opponents who were at least pretty hefty punchers in their own rights landed some of their best shots on him and connected consistently over periods of numerous rounds, enough, at times, to make his face look like it had been hit by a truck, but were unable to even deter him in the slightest, let alone knock him out. Lewis never came through an extended battering like that to win, and he was twice flattened by single shots, and so he is generally estimated to have had a fairly average chin.

IF we found out something like that - then I guarantee majority of voters would switch sides to Frazier (who did show he can take several high amplitude shots and still be on his feet!).
Yes, this is true, but we have no reason to think that would happen were Marciano to face a top-notch puncher. In all the areas his durability has been tested, he stood up as well as virtually anyone.

With me refusing to accept that being able to take a steady beating implies on can take a very hard shot: I KNOW what is undrer the trunk (hahaha) with Frazier whereas I don't with Marciano. This makes me more comfortable to put money on Frazier whereas with Marciano it is no better than a guess.

I have nothing against Rocky - I think he would beat Joe Frazier in a head to head match up since he is more two handed against the Frazier whose one eye made him less two handed. I also wish to disagree with the mass and I do believe in the idea of Frazier being more proven.
I don't have the time right now, but later I'll put some points together to show that being able to take moderate-level punches and being able to take accumulations of punches exceptionally well is an indicator that one is more likely to be able to take top-notch punches.

[Bummy Davis]

Who was wobbled/dropped more as an amateur and an early pro? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his rise to the championship? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his high-level performances? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more against moderate-level punchers? Frazier. It's true that we don't have a direct comparison of how they each stand up against herculean one-punch hitters, but in the areas we can compare them, Marciano wins.




No, I think being able to take singular hard punches is always worth consideration- it's just that it isn't the only important criterion.


Durability, like most attributes of a human body, is a complicated thing. It isn't black and white. Some guys are easy to phase with a single punch, but they snap back to their senses very quickly, while other guys are hard to phase with one shot, but once they are phased, they can't recover and proceed to be knocked out. Some guys are easily buzzed, but have good instincts and are able to fight through it/cover it up, while other guys who might be harder to buzz don't know what to and make it more obvious when they are, which might make them easier to be knocked out and perceived as less durable.
In Frazier's case, you have a guy who can be rocked or floored more easily than some- he was staggered by a few lesser fighters and Foreman bounced him up and down like a basketball- but who is darned near impossible to actually knock out, ie separate from his senses and leave him helpless. He can be rocked or floored, but he is near-impossible to actually knock out and can get up from practically anything. On the other hand, you have guys like, say, Tyson, who are very, very difficult to put down with a single shot or a single barrage, but with whom, once you break past that durability threshold, are liable to be clean knocked out when they do go down.
Imagine there are two reeds you're trying to break. One is relatively moist and soft. When you go to break it, it bends fairly easily under force and seems malleable. However, you find that no matter how far you bend it or twist it, it stays elastic and just won't snap. The other is dry and hard- you push and heave mightily and can't seem to get it to bend an inch, but once you finally apply enough pressure, it breaks clean in half. Sometimes the malleable reed proves harder to break than the brittle one.


Yes, but Lewis didn't take any extended batterings, either. Marciano had fights in which opponents who were at least pretty hefty punchers in their own rights landed some of their best shots on him and connected consistently over periods of numerous rounds, enough, at times, to make his face look like it had been hit by a truck, but were unable to even deter him in the slightest, let alone knock him out. Lewis never came through an extended battering like that to win, and he was twice flattened by single shots, and so he is generally estimated to have had a fairly average chin.


Yes, this is true, but we have no reason to think that would happen were Marciano to face a top-notch puncher. In all the areas his durability has been tested, he stood up as well as virtually anyone.


I don't have the time right now, but later I'll put some points together to show that being able to take moderate-level punches and being able to take accumulations of punches exceptionally well is an indicator that one is more likely to be able to take top-notch punches.


:good Intellegent Post :good

[hobgoblin]

I don't have the time right now, but later I'll put some points together

Me too. I think from the angle you are looking at it - things get distorted. It is like trying to look at a clock at a weird angle when trying to pin down the precise minute - there are many angles that cause distortion. For instance, the way you mention Frazier in the last post, I'd think we're talking about Floyd Patterson here (who was wobbled dropped more...) Later on I shall better explain myself...

[Muchmoore]

Marcianos chin was ATG quality, Fraziers chin was good but not in Marcianos league.

[Dempsey1238]

Walcott was beating on Marciano in the first fight. Walcott landed the shot that drop Marciano, but Walcott would go on and land thsos type of punchings on Marciano thown out the 13 rounds, he relly did bust up Marciano. Did you guys see pics of Marciano in the post fight interview?? He face was pretty mess up. I think that fight prove Marciano's chin.

[hopkinsfan07]

Marciano easy

Frazier has been knocked out and stuned alot of times

[Ramon Rojo]

Marciano easy

Frazier has been knocked out and stuned alot of times

:nut


Frazier fought much better opponents than Marciano.

[Bad_Intentions]

Frazier's chin was more tested, but IDK, I'll say it's about even.:good[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Marciano Frazier]

Me too. I think from the angle you are looking at it - things get distorted. It is like trying to look at a clock at a weird angle when trying to pin down the precise minute - there are many angles that cause distortion. For instance, the way you mention Frazier in the last post, I'd think we're talking about Floyd Patterson here (who was wobbled dropped more...) Later on I shall better explain myself... No, I'm not at all suggesting that Frazier had Patterson-like durability. I didn't say that Frazier was easily wobbled/dropped or was wobbled/dropped especially often, but only that he was clearly wobbled/dropped more often than Marciano(who was barely ever wobbled/dropped). Although, Patterson did have a similar type of chin to Frazier(inferior, but of the same brand)- they were both of the type that was somewhat vulnerable(or, in Patterson's case, very vulnerable) to being hurt or floored if hit with a very hard single shot or a flurry, but extremely hard to actually knock out. Like the elasticy reed that might bend and flex, but refuses to snap.

[hobgoblin]

Who was wobbled/dropped more as an amateur and an early pro? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his rise to the championship? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more in his high-level performances? Frazier. Who was wobbled/dropped more against moderate-level punchers? Frazier. It's true that we don't have a direct comparison of how they each stand up against herculean one-punch hitters, but in the areas we can compare them, Marciano wins.
The way you write it, I'd think Joe Frazier had a chin like Floyd Patterson! Yes, Marciano wins 3-1 in the categories you listed (look at his championship defenses and his fights with Ali - including the Foreman fights is just plain wrong - if anything - those fights showed what a warrior Joe Frazier was). However, that is sort of like George Bush having won 30 states (or more) during the 2000 election but each state was won by not a significant margin and so "overall" on the popular vote, Gore was actually ahead. If you look "overall" the difference is not a decisive 3-1. It is closer. The category of Herculean punches is what could potentially be Frazier's California, Pennsylvania, etc (these states counted more heavily).

It's true that we don't have a direct comparison of how they each stand up against herculean one-punch hitters, but in the areas we can compare them, Marciano wins.
He doesn't win by a whole lot IMO. We NEED to make a direct comparison against Herculean punches. We don't have it - we really can't make conclusions.



No, I think being able to take singular hard punches is always worth consideration- it's just that it isn't the only important criterion.

Durability, like most attributes of a human body, is a complicated thing. It isn't black and white. Some guys are easy to phase with a single punch, but they snap back to their senses very quickly, while other guys are hard to phase with one shot, but once they are phased, they can't recover and proceed to be knocked out. Some guys are easily buzzed, but have good instincts and are able to fight through it/cover it up, while other guys who might be harder to buzz don't know what to and make it more obvious when they are, which might make them easier to be knocked out and perceived as less durable.
Durability and chin are actually two different things. Durability depends on factors NOT associated with chin like conditioning, heart, stamina, etc. For example you sai "Fight through it and cover up" and "instincts" - totally irrelevant to chin. Let's focus on chin alone. Even if Marciano is more durable in those limited categories...we NEED to see how he does against herculean shots - that category COUNTS BIG for me (I'll explain why)

Foreman bounced him up and down like a basketball
Foreman would have done that to a lot of fighters. Perhaps Tyson, Marciano, and Dempsey - the other three swarmers - included. This is not exclusive to Frazier.

In Frazier's case, you have a guy who can be rocked or floored more easily than some- he was staggered by a few lesser fighters
As are aware, stuff happens in boxing. I don't really see these episodes as significant. Fine, I will say that Marciano has less of these episodes and so he is better in the limited category. But we need MORE for a conclusion.

On the other hand, you have guys like, say, Tyson, who are very, very difficult to put down with a single shot or a single barrage, but with whom, once you break past that durability threshold, are liable to be clean knocked out when they do go down.
I think this is a misconception. If Mike Tyson ever got KO'd it is not because his chin let him down (it was either the opponent was boxing him like crazy e.g. Lennox Lewis or Evander Holyfield and punching again and again - just about anyone except Tex Cobb will succumb to that - that is more of a stylistic, overall fighter trait - not chin alone). If Mike Tyson did not recover - it is not because of his chin but his mentality or maybe more decisively - him not having the mentality of Frazier, Holyfield, Marciano, Holmes - guys that fought back hard when hurt. He didn't have the stamina, etc. All this is irrelevant to chin! Tyson was difficult to put down because he had an excellent chin!

Sometimes the malleable reed proves harder to break than the brittle one.
Perhaps that is where the difference lies between man and thread. Threads don't have stamina, heart, conditioning etc.


Marciano had fights in which opponents who were at least pretty hefty punchers in their own rights landed some of their best shots on him and connected consistently over periods of numerous rounds
Yes, they were hefty punchers. They had credentials. But they still don't compare to the punching power of George Foreman. Taking repeated shots from those guys is still not the same thing as even take a round of Foreman's punches. It is dubious (I'm not saying plain wrong but doubtful) to regard those experiences relevant to what Foreman brings.

and connected consistently over periods of numerous rounds, enough, at times, to make his face look like it had been hit by a truck, but were unable to even deter him in the slightest, let alone knock him out.
Look at Gatti when he fights Ward - look at his face. He takes some pretty good shots. But that doesn't mean he has a great chin. Sure, Gatti was deterred much more than Marciano (who did suffer KDs and I still can't tell from the video if it was off balance or what - i recall you said off balance - i cannot tell - in any case this is not a big issue) but I'm just saying taking a consistent beating doesn't mean you have a great chin (it DOES mean that you have one hell of a heart as is the case for both the latter and Rocky).


In all the areas his durability has been tested, he stood up as well as virtually anyone.
Not enough areas. I need more proof. I don't question that Rocky has a good chin - but a chin to handle GEORGE FOREMAN? That is another story that makes me nervous and demand some reassurance. :think

I'll put some points together to show that being able to take moderate-level punches and being able to take accumulations of punches exceptionally well is an indicator that one is more likely to be able to take top-notch punches.
Oh yes, it is definitely an indication in the RIGHT direction (lol, if you can't pass that test, then why bother to bring in Foreman). However, being able to take accumulations of MODERATE punches requires chin but just as much, STAMINA, CONDITIONING, HEART and these factors taint the analysis of chin alone. Look at Gatti, Alex Stewart, etc.

On CHIN ALONE, being able to take several herculanean shots indicates that your chin is excellent and that the CHIN can sustain sustained punishment (this says nothing about other important factors). Moderate punches to hard punches is no guarantee.

I disagreed with your example of Mike Tyson (it wasn't his chin but other examples). Can you give me 3 fighters since 1990 who could take a single hard punch well but could not take a sustained beating because of chin and not because of heart or some other factor? An example would be like Gatti fighting with his heart, having proven stamina, but gets buzzed too much in the late rounds and so it is his chin that lets him down (not some other deficiency) and he loses.

Tyson was buzzed in round 11 against Holy - but obvious he lasted 11 rounds of a heavy beating - he showed he could take it pretty good - and if he had a HEART like Fraziers - he'd have decisoned. It was also about Holy outboxing him, not his chin being unable to take sustained punishment.

Most boxing fans will dub a fighter as having granite chin if they seem him handle a sing hard shot and be fine - look at Vitali. This is how chins are considered by many.

[bigjake]

I think some of you are making a good point about Marciano not facing as hard a puncher as Frazier. That makes this one hard to call.

Marciano was floored, but was usually coming forward and hit while doing so. He never looked hurt. It may not be fair to say how he would stand up to larger shots, when he never really looked fazed by what did hit him.

Frazier's chin was tested by Foreman, and failed. It stood up to everyone else he faced.

The only thing I can base my decision on is how Frazier looked when others were hitting him. He looked like he was pushing thru when some were hitting him. Like it bothered him, but he was coming anyway. I never really saw Marciano with that look. It was like he was coming, and it didn't hurt.

Sorry, but that's all I can base this on. If I have to answer, Marciano.

oscar bonavena had frazier on the canvas twice in the same round of their first fight

[hopkinsfan07]

:nut


Frazier fought much better opponents than Marciano.

but Marciano had bad head movement and defence so he got hit more

[Marciano Frazier]

The way you write it, I'd think Joe Frazier had a chin like Floyd Patterson!
Um, where do you get that impression? I never said "Frazier was constantly wobbled and dropped and I could take a better punch than he could." I only said that he was wobbled/dropped more than Marciano, who was hardly ever wobbled/dropped. All-in-all, of course, Frazier was green when he was dropped by Bruce and Bonavena, he took some very serious batterings and kept coming during his rise to the title, he proved his mettle against some guys who could pack a formidable punch as champion and in his post-title career, and he took one of the worst shellackings you'll ever see from one of the most dangerous punchers of all time and was still on his feet after being splattered on the floor six times when the fight was stopped.
In fact, if you flick down to the "How many fighters would blow Frazier out?" thread(which I started), you'll see I've been actively defending Frazier's durability and have been engaged in a long exchange with Mendoza over Frazier's durability, particularly in comparison with Norton's(Mendoza is making the argument that Norton showed a similar level of durability to Frazier and Frazier being considered to have a solid chin while Norton is viewed as having a weak one is the result of bias/skewed perception, and I'm arguing that Frazier was considerably more durable than Norton and much harder to blast out). This is an interesting time for me, because I'm busy in one thread defending and promoting Frazier's chin as underrated and strong and arguing against it in comparison with another fighter simultaneously! Again, I have never said anything here to the effect of the viewpoint that Frazier had a weak chin or was easy to hurt and knock down- only that he did not have as good a chin as Marciano(since a comparison of these two fighters in that department is the topic posed in the heading of this thread).

Yes, Marciano wins 3-1 in the categories you listed (look at his championship defenses and his fights with Ali - including the Foreman fights is just plain wrong - if anything - those fights showed what a warrior Joe Frazier was). However, that is sort of like George Bush having won 30 states (or more) during the 2000 election but each state was won by not a significant margin and so "overall" on the popular vote, Gore was actually ahead. If you look "overall" the difference is not a decisive 3-1. It is closer. The category of Herculean punches is what could potentially be Frazier's California, Pennsylvania, etc (these states counted more heavily).
Yes, but we don't have any evidence Frazier has the advantage in "Herculean" punches, and since Marciano seems to take medium and pretty-hard punches better, the reasonable guess would be that he probably takes extremely hard ones better as well- in the absence of some kind of compelling evidence that Frazier was better at taking "Herculean" punches, the fair conclusion, based on the available evidence, is that Marciano probably had the sturdier overall set of whiskers.

He doesn't win by a whole lot IMO. We NEED to make a direct comparison against Herculean punches. We don't have it - we really can't make conclusions.
We can't make definitive conclusions, but we can make educated guesses. As you've probably noticed, this entire forum centers around hypothetical scenarios involving fighters we simply can't compare directly. Without objective measurements or common opponents, there is no way to make a sure conclusion that one champion from one era was better than another from a different era, but that certainly doesn't stop us from speculating and making educated guesses about it.

Imagine my friend and I are involved in a shooting competition on a basketball court. We each shoot 100 free throws, and I make 80, while he makes 70. Then we each step outside the circle and shoot 100 three-pointers. I make 60 and he makes 50. Next, we're each going to shoot 100 from half-court, and you're a spectator looking to make a smart bet on the outcome. Now, the fact that I outscored my friend at free throws and three-pointers doesn't prove that I'm better at half-court; but since I seem to be better at moderate-range and fairly long-range shots, the smart bet would be that I'm probably better at very long-range shots, too. By the same token, since Marciano seems to have been harder to hurt/drop with medium and fairly hard punches(not for certain, since, as you say, much of this is incidental and fluid, but since their careers reflect it as best we can see, we can reasonably think he was), he was most likely also harder to hurt/drop with extremely hard punches.

Now, I don't mean to make light of your effort in this next series of paragraphs/arguments(it is well-articulated and detailed), but I don't have the time or space(they've got a limit on the length of posts these days) to quote each one individually, so I will go over your points in this next section in a little broader fashion.

When I talked about "covering up" and "fighting through" being hurt, I didn't necessarily mean that those things indicated a better chin- rather I said that they cause a fighter to be perceived as having a better chin. I was pointing out that there are a great deal of factors which effect an observer's perception of how good a chin one fighter has in comparison with another, that judging this sort of thing off visual interpretation is still a grey and uncertain determination, and that there are some facets which are debatable, ie if one guy takes a single hard punch and doesn't go down, but is separated from his senses and unable to perform competently afterwards, while another guy takes an equally hard shot and does go down, but is fine internally and was only knocked over by the force of the punch, who actually took the shot better?
As for examples of fighters who stood up to one very hard punch but went down under accumulations of lighter punches, look at, for instance, Oscar Bonavena- he was certainly able to take single, crushing hooks from a Joe Frazier without going down, but after 14 rounds of consistent punishment from the much lighter-hitting Ali, he completely snapped and was dropped and left helpless.

Most boxing fans will dub a fighter as having granite chin if they seem him handle a sing hard shot and be fine - look at Vitali. This is how chins are considered by many.
Yes, fighters like Vitali Klitschko are known for having granite chins because they survived single powerful shots, but you're ignoring a large portion of the field when you make this remark. To use an example very close to home here, when Frazier's durability comes up, I've often heard remarks to the tune of "No one can watch Ali-Frazier I and tell me Frazier didn't have an excellent chin."

[Minotauro]

I think Frazier chin was good but his recovery was great thats what enabled him to get back up so many times against Foreman. Marciano had a slightly better chin although he never fought anyone like Foreman.

[hobgoblin]

Yes, but we don't have any evidence Frazier has the advantage in "Herculean" punches, and since Marciano seems to take medium and pretty-hard punches better, the reasonable guess

We can't make definitive conclusions, but we can make educated guesses.

Imagine my friend and I are involved in a shooting competition on a basketball court. We each shoot 100 free throws, and I make 80, while he makes 70. Then we each step outside the circle and shoot 100 three-pointers. I make 60 and he makes 50. Next, we're each going to shoot 100 from half-court, and you're a spectator looking to make a smart bet on the outcome. Now, the fact that I outscored my friend at free throws and three-pointers doesn't prove that I'm better at half-court; but since I seem to be better at moderate-range and fairly long-range shots, the smart bet would be that I'm probably better at very long-range shots, too.

It is NOT a reasonable or an educated inference at all. Your example clearly indicates it. People that shoot well at the free throw and then go to shoot well at three point lines - are usually just good shooters in general so it isn't a fitting analogy. Nevertheless, some parts do work: your shooting at half court is nearly irrelevant to your shooting within a reasonable range - I'm sure when you see someone try a half court shot they have a very different position and "technique" ; it is something totally different and hardly related to normal shooting. Just like that, a Herculanean punch is something totally different to moderate power punches - it is like the half court shot (in exaggeration to illustrate my point).

As for examples of fighters who stood up to one very hard punch but went down under accumulations of lighter punches, look at, for instance, Oscar Bonavena- he was certainly able to take single, crushing hooks from a Joe Frazier without going down, but after 14 rounds of consistent punishment from the much lighter-hitting Ali, he completely snapped and was dropped and left helpless.

That is not a very good example. I saw the finish - it is comical. It had less to do with Bonavena's chin and more with other things like not having the conditioning (for facing Ali at least) and getting plain tired (we discussed this kind of tainting before). More so - 14 rounds of punishment - that is EXCELLENT ability to take a steady beating (maybe not as good as Marciano - but if Bonavena can take very hard shots better than you must look at it overall).

I'm not stating that Frazier has a better chin. I'm saying that I would put money on him to have a better chin (based on conventional wisdom) because I know what is UNDER THE TRUNK OF that car - I have seen that he takes hard shots and gets back up if needbe. I can't say the same for Marciano so I'll take the MORE PROVEN product.

Yes, fighters like Vitali Klitschko are known for having granite chins because they survived single powerful shots, but you're ignoring a large portion of the field when you make this remark. To use an example very close to home here, when Frazier's durability comes up, I've often heard remarks to the tune of "No one can watch Ali-Frazier I and tell me Frazier didn't have an excellent chin."

I'm not ignoring - it is just a ONE WAY street. If a fighter takes a single hard shot well - it means he can take a sustained beating so long as his other factors are tuned in. If a fighter takes a sustained beating - it is not an EDUCATED CONCLUSION to say he takes a very hard shot too as we've seen many cases of that discontinuity. A lot of people probably believe that it is a reasonable or educated inference - it most definitely is not - people are ignoring too many examples in history that show it is a one way street.

At the end of the day, Joe Frazier was more proven.

[Dempsey1238]

Marciano took shots from Walcott, and Moore and they were hard punchers, sure not George Foreman level. But does getting stop by Foreman relly PROVE Fraizer's chin?? I belive Marciano would have goting stop the same way. Up and down. But that does not mean Marciano or Fraizer had less than a chin. As MM said, Fraizer was hurt vs lower tier or middle tier punchings. Marciano took them and strug them off and keep comeing. Only Walcott hurt Marciano in round 11, even the knockdown did not hurt Marciano. Moore caught the Rock on 1 foot. But Fraizer was indeed hurt vs Bonavena and Ali in the 2nd fight. As well as Ramos hurting Fraizer with a uppercut. And other accouts. Outside of Foreman, I dont think Fraizer took on a puncher like Walcott or Moore imo.

[JIm Broughton]

The fact is That Rocky never faced the kind of punishment that Joe had to endure. Joe took hundreds of sharp fast hard shots from Ali who was underrated as a puncher and kept getting up after being bombed by a giant clubber like Foreman, two modern sized athletes. Rocky never faced anything like that in his career. He was decked by Moore who weighed 180 and was hurt as well. Rocky was also given a standing 8 count which was not in the conditions set before the fight. Moore might have finished him if the ref did'nt do this. Marciano fought in an era where fighters were generally under 200lbs and nowhere as fast as the modern fighters of Joe's era. Most of the punches in Rocky's era were thrown with a one-and-a-two rythym. Ali threw lightning fast combos that came 4 and 5 at a time, and hurt. How would Rocky deal with that kind of barrage? And if Foreman could easily shove a 212 Frazier halfway across the ring before throwing his bombs, I think he would easily do the same to a 184lb Marciano. Could Rocky keep getting up after receiving those kind of power shots which came very fast from a brute like Foreman? Maybe he could survive the barrages from Ali and Foreman but the fact is we'll never know so I don't think we can truthfully say who had the better chin unless they both faced the same opponents. Both men were very tough no question about that but Rocky was decked by a light HW in Moore and a cruiserweight in Walcott. It would be interesting to see how he would've handled the shots of bigger modern sized HWs like Ali and Foreman but unfortunately we'll never know.

[Luigi1985]

The fact is That Rocky never faced the kind of punishment that Joe had to endure. Joe took hundreds of sharp fast hard shots from Ali who was underrated as a puncher and kept getting up after being bombed by a giant clubber like Foreman, two modern sized athletes. Rocky never faced anything like that in his career. He was decked by Moore who weighed 180 and was hurt as well. Rocky was also given a standing 8 count which was not in the conditions set before the fight. Moore might have finished him if the ref did'nt do this. Marciano fought in an era where fighters were generally under 200lbs and nowhere as fast as the modern fighters of Joe's era. Most of the punches in Rocky's era were thrown with a one-and-a-two rythym. Ali threw lightning fast combos that came 4 and 5 at a time, and hurt. How would Rocky deal with that kind of barrage? And if Foreman could easily shove a 212 Frazier halfway across the ring before throwing his bombs, I think he would easily do the same to a 184lb Marciano. Could Rocky keep getting up after receiving those kind of power shots which came very fast from a brute like Foreman? Maybe he could survive the barrages from Ali and Foreman but the fact is we'll never know so I don't think we can truthfully say who had the better chin unless they both faced the same opponents. Both men were very tough no question about that but Rocky was decked by a light HW in Moore and a cruiserweight in Walcott. It would be interesting to see how he would've handled the shots of bigger modern sized HWs like Ali and Foreman but unfortunately we'll never know.


Yes, he was badly hurt, if he wouldn´t be white, the referee surely would have stopped the fight, but Moore wasn´t the only opponent of Marciano who was robbed... :thumbsup

[Dempsey1238]

Wallace didnt knock out the Rock. Wallace won on points in that Atm fight. Marciano didnt get knockout in the pros or the Atms.

[RoccoMarciano]

Marciano never faced big, talented heavyweights like Ali and Foreman. Marciano couldn't go the distance with either one of them. With Foreman it would have been a massacre.
Ali wasn't that big, and I really don't see him winning against Marciano.... Ali gets his head knocked off in the 11th! :good

[RoccoMarciano]

Marciano and Frazier both had great chins... very nearly equal I would say.

[Jack]

I'd probably say around equal, but seeing as Marciano is wining this poll easily, I voted for Frazier.

It's hard to say really. I think there is a lot of fighters who would have looked to have an awesome chin against Marciano's opposition, despite them being knocked down in their own careers, such as Holmes, Dempsey, prime Louis, Holyfield, Tyson. I just can't see those, or many other ATG's, suffering knockdowns against the poor competition Marciano faced, unless it is a freak shot.

On the other hand, Frazier had a tough career against hard htiting guys, and you can only say he was hurt before and after his prime. Considering the physical shape he was in post-Ali I, it's no wonder his punch resistance fell. If you think about how drastically the difference in his style was against Bonavena, it's clear that is wasn't prime Frazier.

You have a guy who was only hurt before and after his prime and one who was very rarely hurt. You have someone who faced elite level punchers, and one who often fought light weak hitters.

It's hard to say because of the circumstances. the two cases are very different, but I think if they both fought the same 50 guys, the results would be similar.