Vitali-AT LEAST in the top 3 highest KO percentages in history for a heavyweight. [Archive]

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:12 PM

List VITLAYS competition and anyone with any knowledge could name you probably 20 other guys that would have knocked them all out.

The most important statistic about VITLAY is that he lost to the only 2 decent fighters he faced. Byrd was 'decent' and the version of Lewis that he faced was nothing special either.

Dick!

Kirk Johnson & Corrie Sanders were shit by your standards? The same Kirk Johnson That KO'd Maskaev easily, y'know, the current WBC Heavyweight champion?

The same Sanders that knocked down Rahman & KO'd Wladimir? Sanders doesn't hit hard enough for you? He has no skills whatsoever in your opinion?

Crack kills dude...........................:rofl

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:16 PM

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:18 PM

Dick!

Kirk Johnson & Corrie Sanders were shit by your standards? The same Kirk Johnson That KO'd Maskaev easily, y'know, the current WBC Heavyweight champion?

The same Sanders that knocked down Rahman & KO'd Wladimir? Sanders doesn't hit hard enough for you? He has no skills whatsoever in your opinion?

Crack kills dude...........................:rofl

Not shit but hardly difficult to KO either are they? In almost every 'glass jaw' thread on here I see Rahmans name cropping up so that pretty much takes him out of the argument. Sanders at the age VITLAY fought him at was nothing more than a token opponent, who was only rated because he KO'd WALD. Maskaev wasn't even a player when Lewis was champ but all of a sudden he wins a paper belt in his late 30's and he becomes great?? :nut :nut :nut

VITLAYS percentage looks impressive but in reality it's all smoke and mirrors. Every time he faced adversity in a fight he lost.

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:18 PM

And against Bryd he was winning, but injured. He obviously would have beaten Bryd, so you really can't count that against him either.

The fact is Vitali was winning both fights that he lost at the time of the stoppages. he had a serious rotator cuff injury vs. Byrd & the ref stopped the fight vs. Lewis because of cuts.......................

Let the record speak for itself :deal

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:20 PM

Herbie Hide is also a good boxer but Vitali KO'd him so I guess Herbie just flat out sucks because he lost to Vitali right Fightweight............?

Is that the only measuring stick you use to judge fighters? How well they did against a Klitschko?

Larry Donald is also a good boxer with a solid chin but VitKlit Ko'd his ass didn't he? Something that Valuev couldn't do, and Donald beat Holyfield didn't he?

Oh shit :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Dragging in Valuev (who is a bum in every sense of the word) and old Holyfield into your argument just stinks of desperation.

As for Hide, he was given excessive vaseline before the VITLAY fight, and he was ahead on all the cards at the time of the weak stoppage - that tells you all you need to know about that fiasco.

Dekkers

06-29-2007, 09:22 PM

Herbie Hide is also a good boxer but Vitali KO'd him so I guess Herbie just flat out sucks because he lost to Vitali right Fightweight............?

No Herbie is a good fighter, he just has a terrible chin.

Is that the only measuring stick you use to judge fighters? How well they did against a Klitschko?

Larry Donald is also a good boxer with a solid chin but VitKlit Ko'd his ass didn't he? Something that Valuev couldn't do, and Donald beat Holyfield didn't he?

An ancient Holyfield, Valuev is also damn slow

For the record Johnson would've been a good win if he bothered showing up in something resembling shape, to quote Larry Merchant, "He harpooned that whale!"

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:25 PM

Not shit but hardly difficult to KO either are they? In almost every 'glass jaw' thread on here I see Rahmans name cropping up so that pretty much takes him out of the argument. Sanders at the age VITLAY fought him at was nothing more than a token opponent, who was only rated because he KO'd WALD. Maskaev wasn't even a player when Lewis was champ but all of a sudden he wins a paper belt in his late 30's and he becomes great?? :nut :nut :nut

VITLAYS percentage looks impressive but in reality it's all smoke and mirrors. Every time he faced adversity in a fight he lost.

......and those losses were legit losses IMO. Both Byrd & Lewis won since the injuries occured during the course of the fight. However it must be noted that Vitali was beating both to the punch, which isn't easy against either. That shows heart, boxing skill, speed & confidence that I personally admire in any boxer.

So What's your fuckin' problem with Vitali? Not the proper nationality?

I have a serious question for you:

If Vitali comes back & beats McCline, the winner of Maskaev vs.Peter & then McCall or whomever else they line up how will you rate him in the top 10 current HW list?

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:30 PM

For the record Johnson would've been a good win if he bothered showing up in something resembling shape, to quote Larry Merchant, "He harpooned that whale!"

Oh come on, as if the fight vs. Johnson lasted long enough for stamina or "fightingshape" to play a part whatsoever. You can do better than that can't you?

Besides, since when is it the opposing fighter's responsibility to make sure the other fight arrives in fighting shape?

Don't even say that Kirk didn't try, everyone who watched that fight saw Kirk swinging for the KO and Vitali took a few & avoided a few to beat Kirk into submission didn't he?

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:32 PM

......and those losses were legit losses IMO. Both Byrd & Lewis won since the injuries occured during the course of the fight. However it must be noted that Vitali was beating both to the punch, which isn't easy against either. That shows heart, boxing skill, speed & confidence that I personally admire in any boxer.

So What's your fuckin' problem with Vitali? Not the proper nationality?

I have a serious question for you:

If Vitali comes back & beats McCline, the winner of Maskaev vs.Peter & then McCall or whomever else they line up how will you rate him in the top 10 current HW list?

First of all I'd say if you're 6 feet 8 inches tall and any kind of fighter then you should beat Byrd to the punch without too many problems.

The problem I have with VITLAY fans is that they talk as though VITLAY was totally owning Lewis when they fought and that clearly wasn't the case, it was a pretty even fight going into the 7th. I also have problems with the VITLAY fans claiming that this makes their guy a great fighter - it doesnt. No more than beating Holmes at 38 makes Tyson a great fighter....although Tyson is a great fighter, but for far more important reasons than the Holmes win. The thing is VITLAY had a champ there that was there for the taking and he still lost, how he lost is absolutely irrelevent - he allowed an ageing, rusty guy to bust his skull up to the point where he couldn't continue, end of argument.

If VITLAY comes back and does all you say then yes he'll be number 1 or 2 (depending on what WALD does) but that still doesn't erase what happened before.....VITLAY was in his prime against Lewis and Byrd and lost. The reasons for the losses are well documented but excuses are like assholes and all that....

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:33 PM

Now if Vitali vs. Kirk would've gone at least 5 rounds or so you would've had a point.........................

But it didn't.

BTW, who has kicked the shit outta Johnson that badly before or after he fought Vitali?

How about Sanders? At least the fight vs. Corrie went on long enough to let stamina play a role..................

Man, you guys make this way too easy.

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:34 PM

Besides, since when is it the opposing fighter's responsibility to make sure the other fight arrives in fighting shape?

True, in the same way it wasn't Lewis's fault that VITLAY has paper skin, or Sandersfault that WALDO has a glass chin, or Brewsters fault that WALDO had been poisoned :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl or Byrds fault that VITLAYS arm got sore....

See where I'm going here?

Dekkers

06-29-2007, 09:35 PM

Oh come on, as if the fight vs. Johnson lasted long enough for stamina or "fightshpae" to play a part whatsoever. You can do better than that can't you?

Besides, since when is it the opposing fighter's responsibility to make sure the other fight arrives in fighting shape?

Don't even say that Kirk didn't try, everyone who watched that fight saw Kirk swinging for the KO and Vitali took a few & avoided a few to beat Kirk into submission didn't he?

The guy was totally underdone, wasn't sharp or mobile in any way, he didn't put the hard work in at the gym, didn't prepare for the fight, it obviously showed. It's Johnsons' fault not Vitalis' but regardless you've got to factor it in.

BoxingGuru

06-29-2007, 09:37 PM

No other boxer, including Lennox Lewis would have knocked out everyone Vitali knocked out. And I'll say I repeat that with confidence. I don't even think Lennox would have KO'd Corrie Sanders.

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:39 PM

First of all I'd say if you're 6 feet 8 inches tall and any kind of fighter then you should beat Byrd to the punch without too many problems.

The problem I have with VITLAY fans is that they talk as though VITLAY was totally owning Lewis when they fought and that clearly wasn't the case, it was a pretty even fight going into the 7th. I also have problems with the VITLAY fans claiming that this makes their guy a great fighter - it doesnt. No more than beating Holmes at 38 makes Tyson a great fighter....although Tyson is a great fighter, but for far more important reasons than the Holmes win. The thing is VITLAY had a champ there that was there for the taking and he still lost, how he lost is absolutely irrelevent - he allowed an ageing, rusty guy to bust his skull up to the point where he couldn't continue, end of argument.

If VITLAY comes back and does all you say then yes he'll be number 1 or 2 (depending on what WALD does) but that still doesn't erase what happened before.....VITLAY was in his prime against Lewis and Byrd and lost. The reasons for the losses are well documented but excuses are like assholes and all that....

I personally don't give a shit about a particular fighters fans.............or what they think. I wouldn't let it cloud my judgement as to whether they were a good or dominate fighter. But hey, that's just me.

I make no excuses and some poster once said that Vitali may have injured his shoulder trying to hit a very elusive fighter - Byrd and I believe that did play a role no doubt. Byrd won fair & square & so did Lewis.

BUT

It's not as if either way beating Vitali to the punch or knocked him down or even outlanded him in punches landed.

That's my point.

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:41 PM

No other boxer, including Lennox Lewis would have knocked out everyone Vitali knocked out. And I'll say I repeat that with confidence. I don't even think Lennox would have KO'd Corrie Sanders.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:42 PM

True, in the same way it wasn't Lewis's fault that VITLAY has paper skin, or Sandersfault that WALDO has a glass chin, or Brewsters fault that WALDO had been poisoned :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl or Byrds fault that VITLAYS arm got sore....

See where I'm going here?

Read my last post bonehead & you may see the light.

Not all fans are the same. It's not Brewster's fault that Wlad had some serious physical ailment during their fight, he just did what was nec. to capitalize on his condition. Fair play in my book as it is each fighter's own responsibility to keep in fighting shape throughout the fight.

RUSKULL

06-29-2007, 09:45 PM

Vitali lost both those fights but in no way was he losing at the time of the stoppages. Those losses still count against Vitali's legacy and maybe that's why he wanted to come back, that and the amount of money he can make......................

Dekkers

06-29-2007, 09:46 PM

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:46 PM

I personally don't give a shit about a particular fighters fans.............or what they think. I wouldn't let it cloud my judgement as to whether they were a good or dominate fighter. But hey, that's just me.

I make no excuses and some poster once said that Vitali may have injured his shoulder trying to hit a very elusive fighter - Byrd and I believe that did play a role no doubt. Byrd won fair & square & so did Lewis.

BUT

It's not as if either way beating Vitali to the punch or knocked him down or even outlanded him in punches landed.

That's my point.

Punches landed means shit when you know your opponent is physically weaker than you, which is what got old Lewis past VITLAY - Lewis fought reckless because he knew it wasn't going to the cards, and it wasn't the first time he'd done this, so why pick on the VITLAY fight?

Lewis did the same against Bruno and was down on the cards in a similar way to the VITLAY fight before he dropped the bomb, yet you don't get Bruno fans complaining on here day and night, because they know their guy lost. VITLAY lost just as badly (if not worse) as Bruno and was doing no better than Frank on the cards at the time of stoppage, what's the big deal??

By no means am I trying to make Lennox out to be superman here, he tried the same shit against McCall and Rahman and you saw the results. However you spin it, VITLAY didn't have the tools that those 2 did to take advantage of the situation.

DoumB

06-29-2007, 09:49 PM

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

try and go outside loose some fat cause your klit-hating is making you loose credibility but not weight.

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:49 PM

Read my last post bonehead & you may see the light.

Not all fans are the same. It's not Brewster's fault that Wlad had some serious physical ailment during their fight, he just did what was nec. to capitalize on his condition. Fair play in my book as it is each fighter's own responsibility to keep in fighting shape throughout the fight.

The only serious physical ailment WALDO had in the Brewster fight was a glass chin, just fucking admit it and move on.....it's these kind of excuses that give me the shits when it comes to the Klits. Their fans claim that all time greats like Lewis and Jones had glass chins but make bullshit excuses up for their guys when they get KO'd by shit opposition. Damn at least Lewis and Jones had REASONABLE excuses when they got laid out :yep

Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 09:50 PM

try and go outside loose some fat cause your klit-hating is making you loose credibility but not weight.

Grow up doum-bell :good

Heavyrighthand

06-29-2007, 09:59 PM

Good GOD this repetition of Lewis being old, rusty, unmotivated, out of shape, etc., gets old.

The man is a pro boxer and knew he had a fight coming up, and he prepared for it, period. I even read he was training VERY hard for the Vitali fight.

He was maybe a few pounds over his ideal weight, but some of you make it sound as if 5 pounds is a major hinderance to a 245 pound heavyweight. 5 pounds is nothing, and Lewis was still showing defined abs, but you are desperate to make Lewis look past it, so you cling to anything, no matter how trivial.

He wasn't 45 years old, 43 years old, or 48 years old. He was only 37, and was still at a decent age for a heavyweight.

So stop with the bullshit excuses. Vitali and Lewis were both prepared, in shape, and neither was too old to perform, so stop with the comedic nonsense about how Lewis was a fat, unmotivated, shell of a once great fighter, cause its making me a bit nautious..

Lewis managed to catch Vitali, tear his skin, and won the fight, fair and square. A win is a win.

But as for Vitali in defeat..........a loss on a cut is in no way, a reason to discredit a fighter who was holding his own against one of the greats. A fighter who was actually winning on the cards at the time of the stoppage.

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Fighting Weight

06-29-2007, 10:15 PM

Liston3

06-29-2007, 10:20 PM

And against Bryd he was winning, but injured. He obviously would have beaten Bryd, so you really can't count that against him either.

u cant say that cause byrd had dominated a tired vitali in the 7th and 8th round, vitali had punched himself out

oblate

06-30-2007, 01:07 AM

For the record Johnson would've been a good win if he bothered showing up in something resembling shape, to quote Larry Merchant, "He harpooned that whale!"
that was great when he said that.

Drexl

06-30-2007, 02:09 AM

35 wins, THIRTY FOUR knockouts. That is PRETTY FREAKING SICK.

ONE (1) decision against Hoffman.

The stat only exists because most fighters would have fought better competition by that stage of their career.

Vitali is all hype, very little substance. He stepped up twice & lost twice. I'm not overly impressed with any of his KO wins.

Shamrock

06-30-2007, 03:14 AM

First of all I'd say if you're 6 feet 8 inches tall and any kind of fighter then you should beat Byrd to the punch without too many problems.

The problem I have with VITLAY fans is that they talk as though VITLAY was totally owning Lewis when they fought and that clearly wasn't the case, it was a pretty even fight going into the 7th. I also have problems with the VITLAY fans claiming that this makes their guy a great fighter - it doesnt. No more than beating Holmes at 38 makes Tyson a great fighter....although Tyson is a great fighter, but for far more important reasons than the Holmes win. The thing is VITLAY had a champ there that was there for the taking and he still lost, how he lost is absolutely irrelevent - he allowed an ageing, rusty guy to bust his skull up to the point where he couldn't continue, end of argument.

Vitali WAS owning Lewis before the cut! The cut changed everything, but Vitali was still winning when the ref stopped the fight. And of course you blind chump, it was Vitali who made Lewis look old and decide to retire rather than than risk a lucrative rematch even though he was pressuring lil old mikey and fatty Jones Junior to the easy table at the same time. And, are you stating a belief that Byrd wins fair and square against Vit when the odds are something like even? But I guess your hatred of Vitali for making Lennox look like a chump to most even minded boxing fans can't find a paralell.

ajohnfp

06-30-2007, 03:23 AM

Is it me, or does it seem like Klitschko fans are coming onto this thread and calling "no excuses" on the Lewis fight when someone mentions Lewis being unprepared?

Isn't that the height of irony?

uppa kut

06-30-2007, 03:23 AM

Vitali ko Lewis round 7!

Drexl

06-30-2007, 03:32 AM

Vitali WAS owning Lewis before the cut! The cut changed everything, but Vitali was still winning when the ref stopped the fight.

The cut was opened in round 3.

So you are saying Vitali "owned" Lennox for 2 rounds? :lol:

And if you watch the fight again without Vitali's nuts obscuring your view, you'll see that the first round was fairly even.

So that's ONE good round against the oldest, fattest version of Lennox ever to set foot in a boxing ring. Followed by a few more rounds where he got his face mashed.

WOW! IMPRESSIVE!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Also, Lennox swept the last round on all 3 cards, so he was in the ascendancy while Vitali was fading.

Marciano Frazier

06-30-2007, 03:39 AM

You cannot discredit a man for losing a fight by a cut.

HE didn't win but you cant say he lost it again lennox.

No one knows what would of happened in the 7th round. But to discredit a fighter by a cut is stupid. Why? Why is losing because the other man injured you any more or less legitimate than losing because he outboxed you or knocked you out?

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 03:44 AM

First of all I'd say if you're 6 feet 8 inches tall and any kind of fighter then you should beat Byrd to the punch without too many problems.

The problem I have with VITLAY fans is that they talk as though VITLAY was totally owning Lewis when they fought and that clearly wasn't the case, it was a pretty even fight going into the 7th. I also have problems with the VITLAY fans claiming that this makes their guy a great fighter - it doesnt. No more than beating Holmes at 38 makes Tyson a great fighter....although Tyson is a great fighter, but for far more important reasons than the Holmes win. The thing is VITLAY had a champ there that was there for the taking and he still lost, how he lost is absolutely irrelevent - he allowed an ageing, rusty guy to bust his skull up to the point where he couldn't continue, end of argument.

If VITLAY comes back and does all you say then yes he'll be number 1 or 2 (depending on what WALD does) but that still doesn't erase what happened before.....VITLAY was in his prime against Lewis and Byrd and lost. The reasons for the losses are well documented but excuses are like assholes and all that....

Holmes was well past prime at 38. That KO of Mikes was pretty meaningless.

Lennox was at prime (1999-2003). He was a late bloomer.

Tyson was prime 20 -24.

Obviously Vitali didn't dominate Lennox, even in the first 6 before the stoppage. It was close but he had and edge.

Re Byrd: Vitali won 8 of 9 rounds and tore his shoulder. He made the wise choice. This only hurts his legacy in the eyes of those who undervalued him to begin with.

His only true defeat came at the hands of Lewis, an ATG who I rank 3 or 4 alltime.

Prime healthy Vitali, head to head was a difficult opponent.

Sakura

06-30-2007, 06:16 AM

Vitali was his prime at the time about Herbie Hide fight. His movement was great at that time and his right was good to (before surgery)..

Sundance

06-30-2007, 06:23 AM

Looking forward to seeing him KO McLine and then Peter or Maskaev. Just too big and strong for all these muppets.

Thom

06-30-2007, 07:52 AM

try and go outside loose some fat cause your klit-hating is making you loose credibility but not weight.

:huh

And you think that the assertion that prime Lennox Lewis wouldn't have been able to KO Corrie Sanders is credible? It's really funny that a younger incarnation of the supposedly heavy handed, quick fisted Corrie Sanders couldn't even get the better of Hasim Rahman in a slugfest or survive a furious onslaught from Nate fucking Tubbs, yet people want to claim Vitlay was the only guy who could knock him out at an advanced age? :-(

God, I hate idiots.

Drexl

06-30-2007, 09:46 AM

Re Byrd: Vitali won 8 of 9 rounds and tore his shoulder. He made the wise choice. This only hurts his legacy in the eyes of those who undervalued him to begin with.

His only true defeat came at the hands of Lewis, an ATG who I rank 3 or 4 alltime.

Prime healthy Vitali, head to head was a difficult opponent.

Vitali winning 8 rounds makes his decision to quit weak, not wise. He was in there against one of the lightest hitters in the division, who also had a huge size disasvantage making Vitali's "lean back" defence all the more effective.

All he had to do was not get KO'd and he'd walk away with the victory
without even having to move his injured shoulder.

That was a 100% legit defeat.

Yes, prime & healthy Vitali was a difficult opponent.... but so are 1000's of other HW's. Vitali is nothing special.

Heavyrighthand

06-30-2007, 09:57 AM

Yes, prime & healthy Vitali was a difficult opponent.... but so are 1000's of other HW's. Vitali is nothing special.

Nothing special......?????????

:blood

-Highest KO percentage in history; or at least, one of the top three highest in history

-Never been knocked down, even against heavy handed fighters like Lewis and Sanders

-Never been even BEHIND on the cards, even against supreme boxers like Byrd and Lewis

So yeah, his power, countering skill, overall handspeed, defense, and iron chin, aside, I guess you could say that this man is nothing special.

:blood

RUSKULL

06-30-2007, 10:35 AM

Thom

06-30-2007, 10:47 AM

Nothing special......?????????

:blood

-Highest KO percentage in history; or at least, one of the top three highest in history

-Never been knocked down, even against heavy handed fighters like Lewis and Sanders

-Never been even BEHIND on the cards, even against supreme boxers like Byrd and Lewis

So yeah, his power, countering skill, overall handspeed, defense, and iron chin, aside, I guess you could say that this man is nothing special.

:blood

:roll:

Those stats mean next to nothing when you consider the fact that his "marquee" career victories were over Kirk Johnson, Herbie Hide, Larry Donald and Corrie Sanders, and his one title defense in his manufactured status as the recognized HW champ came against Danny Williams.

The guy was a skilled fighter in his prime with excellent size, power, and an awkward style that could give a lot of people fits, but his competition was utterly subpar when compared to the top HWs in history. Sorry, but he was a good fighter who never lived up to his potential and will always be remembered for his losses more than his victories. Nothing special. End of story.

ETA Who the fuck is rapidfyre and how did he edit this post last year?

RAMPAGE0017

06-30-2007, 11:55 AM

:rofl At least give him a round to catch up before saying he was behind on the cards.

I don't give a shit about that card argument he knocked both of those guys out.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl I was thinking the same thing.. why do people always point out that Hide was scoring on him for one round? Is that supposed to somehow take away from his ability? That he lost a round to a guy? :lol:

And as for the Sanders fight, the judges must've been blind if they actually had Sanders ahead on the scorecards.

jopez707

06-30-2007, 12:26 PM

V. Klitschko had a lot of potential, he just never lived up to it. He didnt fight enough of the top guys, wins against an old Corrie Sanders and a fat Kirk Johnson just dont cut it. If V. Klitschko can come back and beat Peter and or Chagaev he will get a lot more respect.

Tencount85

06-30-2007, 12:36 PM

I like Vitali a lot but I admit a lot of those KO's on his record are against part-time Janitor equivalent type fighters...shitty. I hope if he does indeed return he can maybe beat up Chagaev and possibly Peter so he can be "credible".

PATSYS

06-30-2007, 12:51 PM

You cannot discredit a man for losing a fight by a cut.

HE didn't win but you cant say he lost it again lennox.

No one knows what would of happened in the 7th round. But to discredit a fighter by a cut is stupid.

He lost, that is all we know.

But I personally know that Lewis would have finished him on the very next round.

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 02:03 PM

Here we go again...

Vitali was BEHIND versus Sanders and Hide, so yes NOTHING SPECIAL

Is that the same Hide he KO'd in round 2?

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 02:11 PM

He lost, that is all we know.

But I personally know that Lewis would have finished him on the very next round.

Yo know that personally.

Good for you Mr. Psychic.

Lewis himself did not share your confidence.

He stated he would give Vitali a rematch ($20m purse was mentioned).

He thought about it for over a year and then wisely decided to preserve his legacy and retire as champ.

BTW:
Would you happen to know (personally, of course) who's going to win the next Kentucky Derby? I have a few dollars to bet and with your prescience, I could profit here.

PATSYS

06-30-2007, 02:17 PM

Yo know that personally.

Good for you Mr. Psychic.

Lewis himself did not share your confidence.

He stated he would give Vitali a rematch ($20m purse was mentioned).

He thought about it for over a year and then wisely decided to preserve his legacy and retire as champ.

BTW:
Would you happen to know (personally, of course) who's going to win the next Kentucky Derby? I have a few dollars to bet and with your prescience, I could profit here.

Lewis would have koed Vitali damnit. Watch the damn fight ffs.

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 02:45 PM

The cut was opened in round 3.

So you are saying Vitali "owned" Lennox for 2 rounds? :lol:

And if you watch the fight again without Vitali's nuts obscuring your view, you'll see that the first round was fairly even.

So that's ONE good round against the oldest, fattest version of Lennox ever to set foot in a boxing ring. Followed by a few more rounds where he got his face mashed.

WOW! IMPRESSIVE!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Also, Lennox swept the last round on all 3 cards, so he was in the ascendancy while Vitali was fading.

First, Nobody was owned in the fight. It was close, with an edge for Vitali.

Second, the oldest-ever-Lennoxthing doesn't wash. Lennox from 10 years earlier would have had a much harder night. Lennox was prime 1999 to 2003, a late bloomer.

Lennox won the sixth round and so was on the ascendancy?

Herbie Hide won a round against Vitali and was knocked into kingdom come in the next round.

Vitali ended Lennox's career.

A prime Lennox would beat a prime Vitali (I have prime Lennox and Big George tied for 3/4 on my alltime list).

But that night was the end of Lennox's prime career and from that point till he retired, Vitali was the top dog.

He never lived up to his promise. He was injury-plagued, and had competed lots in kick-boxing in his younger days, all of which left unfulfilled potential in his boxing career.

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 02:58 PM

Lewis would have koed Vitali damnit. Watch the damn fight ffs.
Good detailed response to the points,PATSYS.

I watched it live and several times since.

What would have happened in the second half is unknown and UNKNOWABLE, even to a genius like yourself.

I believe Lennox dodged a bullet.

I believe that Lennox KNEW that too, hence, no rematch.

DonPrestige

06-30-2007, 03:04 PM

Well firstly I def wouldnt call Lennox a great. A skilled and clever boxer who dominated an extremely weak, over the hill and limited division. But hey you cant blame Lewis for that and he was the last hw to unify so he gets my credit. However, you cant criticise Vitali for getting beat coz of a cut. He was ahead on the cards in my opinion and Lewis knew this which wa why he retired after that and didnt give vitali a rematch.

DamonD

06-30-2007, 03:07 PM

He's 0-2 with 0 KOs against the two best guys he fought. That's what matters more.

Drexl

06-30-2007, 08:11 PM

I think Drexl is nothing special as a poster here on ESB. But hey, that's just my opinion............:yep

I don't either.

Do you think YOU are something special?

Dekkers

06-30-2007, 08:18 PM

Ibeabuchi deserves more praise than Vitali, atleast he shared the ring with a fighter of prime Tuas quality (on what was said to be his greatest night) and managed to pull out the win.

Drexl

06-30-2007, 08:19 PM

First, Nobody was owned in the fight. It was close, with an edge for Vitali.

Second, the oldest-ever-Lennoxthing doesn't wash. Lennox from 10 years earlier would have had a much harder night. Lennox was prime 1999 to 2003, a late bloomer.

He was Very active throughout his prime fighting 2-3 times a year.

He was CLEARLY no loncer interested and CLEARLY in the worsy shape of his career. And I hope you aren't trying to say he wasn't the oldest he had ever been.... :yep

Lennox won the sixth round and so was on the ascendancy?

Herbie Hide won a round against Vitali and was knocked into kingdom come in the next round.

Are you telling me you can't understand the difference between someone having a good first round, and someone who struggled early turning things around mid-way through a fight?

Whatever. Even if you don't agree that he ws gaining momentum, the fact is the fight was stopped because Vitali couldn't continue therefore the scorecards become insignificant.

Vitali ended Lennox's career.

So..... age, and the fact that he was a multi-millionaire who had achieved all of his career goals before Vitali's name was even mentioned as a possible opponent had nothing to do with it?

:roll:

If he was in his early 30's and just hitting his prime, THEN you could say Vitali ended his career. (Kind of like how Danny Williams ended Vitali's career.... :yep)

But that wasn't the case with Lennox.

Drexl

06-30-2007, 08:20 PM

Ibeabuchi deserves more praise than Vitali, atleast he shared the ring with a fighter of prime Tuas quality (on what was said to be his greatest night) and managed to pull out the win.

And at least Ike managed to get past "Killer" Chris Byrd. :yep

Drexl

06-30-2007, 08:22 PM

:rofl At least give him a round to catch up before saying he was behind on the cards.

I don't give a shit about that card argument he knocked both of those guys out.

So I take it you apply the same logic to Vitali being ahead against Lennox?

:good

Dekkers

06-30-2007, 08:22 PM

And at least Ike managed to get past "Killer" Chris Byrd. :yep

Poor guy was drooling, never saw Vitali do that to "Killer" Chris Byrd with his shots, too bad KO percentages are everything :nut

Drexl

06-30-2007, 08:27 PM

-Highest KO percentage in history; or at least, one of the top three highest in history

It's all about quality of opposition.

There are literally 100's of HW's right now who have a 100% KO percentage simply because they haven't stepped up their competiton level yet.

-Never been knocked down, even against heavy handed fighters like Lewis and Sanders

It's all about quality of opposition. He wasn't KD against Lewis or Byrd, but he was damaged so much that he was unable to continue.

-Never been even BEHIND on the cards, even against supreme boxers like Byrd and Lewis

Yes he has, but again that's all about quality of opposition.

NOTHING SPECIAL. :deal

Fighting Weight

06-30-2007, 08:29 PM

If he was in his early 30's and just hitting his prime, THEN you could say Vitali ended his career. (Kind of like how Danny Williams ended Vitali's career.... :yep)

See that's the argument that always fucks these morons up....if VITLAY retired Lewis by losing to him then surely Williams retired VITLAY, using the same criteria???

Oh of course, Danny wasn't ahead on the cards when he was stopped :nut :nut :nut

He never had a face that looked like a fat girls used tampon either though :deal

Dekkers

06-30-2007, 08:30 PM

Fighting Weight

06-30-2007, 08:31 PM

Vitali WAS owning Lewis before the cut! The cut changed everything, but Vitali was still winning when the ref stopped the fight. And of course you blind chump, it was Vitali who made Lewis look old and decide to retire rather than than risk a lucrative rematch even though he was pressuring lil old mikey and fatty Jones Junior to the easy table at the same time. And, are you stating a belief that Byrd wins fair and square against Vit when the odds are something like even? But I guess your hatred of Vitali for making Lennox look like a chump to most even minded boxing fans can't find a paralell.

So VITLAY made Lewis look like a 'chump' now did he?

Do I need to post the post-fight pics again? Who looks the chump???

Stick to grooming little girls in paedo chat rooms old man, this is where grown ups talk :hat

Fighting Weight

06-30-2007, 08:32 PM

Waldomir already deserves more respect than Vitlay at this point, never seen any fighter as overrated and overhyped as Vitali. There are guys out there who say he takes a 'wide decision' over Ali :rofl

Yeah but come on they've got grounds for believing it......he IS tall and he DID beat Herbie Hide :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Archie_Moore

06-30-2007, 08:36 PM

List VITLAYS competition and anyone with any knowledge could name you probably 20 other guys that would have knocked them all out.

The most important statistic about VITLAY is that he lost to the only 2 decent fighters he faced. Byrd was 'decent' and the version of Lewis that he faced was nothing special either.

:good I like watching both Klitschko brothers because they are skilled and powerful, but there many HW that could have KOed every opponent Vitali has ever beat. :good

RUSKULL

06-30-2007, 08:38 PM

I don't either.

Do you think YOU are something special?

My son thinks I'm special and that's all that really matters. :tong :D

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 09:08 PM

It's all about quality of opposition.

There are literally 100's of HW's right now who have a 100% KO percentage simply because they haven't stepped up their competiton level yet.

Name some, who had the same level of competition as Vitali.

It's all about quality of opposition. He wasn't KD against Lewis or Byrd, but he was damaged so much that he was unable to continue.

Byrd had NOTHING to do with the stoppage.

He lost to Lewis, the best heavywt of the last 15 years and one of the best ever, but he aquitted hiself well.

Yes he has, but again that's all about quality of opposition.

NOTHING SPECIAL. :deal

There are two extreme camps re: Vitali and both are equally misguided. He would have lost probably every round to Ali. Hes' not an ATG. A good number of past fighters would have beaten him (Louis, Foreman, Holmes, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson, Liston....all probably beat him)

On the other hand, there are those ( yourself and Fightingweight for example) who denigrate his notable accomplishments and rate him as a bum, or nothing special.

Both groups are wrong.
He is very over-rated by some, and very under-rated by others.

The truth is in between.

He was top dog for a time, and head-to-head, a difficult fight for any hw ever.

Asterion

06-30-2007, 09:13 PM

cuchulain

06-30-2007, 09:15 PM

That post is the truth. :deal

Thank you !

Shamrock

06-30-2007, 10:13 PM

He lost, that is all we know.

But I personally know that Lewis would have finished him on the very next round.

"personally know" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: so you actually believe in seeing into the future?? Crowd at ringside thought they were robbed, because they could see Vitali winning in the 7th!

Shamrock

06-30-2007, 10:22 PM

So VITLAY made Lewis look like a 'chump' now did he?

Do I need to post the post-fight pics again? Who looks the chump???

Stick to grooming little girls in paedo chat rooms old man, this is where grown ups talk :hat

At 12 you think you're growed up :lol: :lol: :lol: what other reason is there for such hatred of Vitali with you and Drexl other than he made Lewis look very ordinary and only won through an injury (meaning indecisively) and the fact that Vit is a white man :huh

JoeyP

06-30-2007, 10:49 PM

Shamrock

06-30-2007, 10:52 PM

My problem with VK is that he did not beat one top tier fighter. He most likely would have beaten other top guys--or the other champs--but thinking he would do it and actually doing it are 2 different things

Got to agree, but he only quit through injury. Perhaps he can get up again in his comeback, providing he fights often. The lay-off is a worry though.

Drexl

06-30-2007, 11:50 PM

Byrd had NOTHING to do with the stoppage.

OF COURSE HE DID!

Byrd made Vitali miss with his looping haymakers, and did his usual trick of swatting punches away which puts lateral strain on the shoulder joint.

Byrd's style and defence, along with Vitali's lack of accuracy and inability to land properly directly led to the shoulder injury.

Therefore Byrd proved himself to be the superior fighter on the night - Byrd survived Vitali's assault, but Vitali couldn't last the distance against Byrd's tactics.

In the Lennox fight, Lennox's accuracy along with Vitali's lack of defence and inability to defend an obvious target led to the facial damage.

Therefore Lennox proved himself superior to Vitali on the night - he survived Vitali's assault, Vitali couldn't withstand his.

Drexl

07-01-2007, 12:04 AM

Uh oh, I may catch hell from you on this, but I just noticed that the above statement says that " on that night " he survived Vitalis' assault.
Hmmm...does that mean on another night, he may not have been able to survive Vitalis' assault ?? ( :hey )

Yes, that's true as well. Anything can happen in HW boxing.

The Whaler

07-01-2007, 12:10 AM

OF COURSE HE DID!

Byrd made Vitali miss with his looping haymakers, and did his usual trick of swatting punches away which puts lateral strain on the shoulder joint.

Byrd's style and defence, along with Vitali's lack of accuracy and inability to land properly directly led to the shoulder injury.

Therefore Byrd proved himself to be the superior fighter on the night - Byrd survived Vitali's assault, but Vitali couldn't last the distance against Byrd's tactics.

In the Lennox fight, Lennox's accuracy along with Vitali's lack of defence and inability to defend an obvious target led to the facial damage.

Therefore Lennox proved himself superior to Vitali on the night - he survived Vitali's assault, Vitali couldn't withstand his.

I second this post. Byrd making Vitali miss repeatedly HAD to have contributed to Vitali's injury, and Lennox carving up Vitali's eye led up to the stoppage. We can argue about what could have happened, but there's no arguing with what did happen.

PATSYS

07-01-2007, 01:10 AM

Good detailed response to the points,PATSYS.

I watched it live and several times since.

What would have happened in the second half is unknown and UNKNOWABLE, even to a genius like yourself.

I believe Lennox dodged a bullet.

I believe that Lennox KNEW that too, hence, no rematch.

Well it doesn't take a genius to figure out what would have happened in the next rounds considering that Vitali did nothing in the last 2 minutes of round 6 and was punch drunk at the end of the round when he almost wne to the other corner. He was eating monster uppercuts.

Vitali was done, no rocket science there.

cuchulain

07-01-2007, 02:18 AM

Well it doesn't take a genius to figure out what would have happened in the next rounds considering that Vitali did nothing in the last 2 minutes of round 6 and was punch drunk at the end of the round when he almost wne to the other corner. He was eating monster uppercuts.

Vitali was done, no rocket science there.

Let me refresh your failing memory with the link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Lewis walked back to his corner ( he had lost the round but was not punch drunk. Lennox ( who hit again well after the bell) collapsed exhausted into his corner, punched out.

He could have been KOd in the 7 th.

The point is , no-one KNOWS what would have happened next.

Lennox win on cuts, a completely legit TKO victory (unlike Byrd's, despite Drexl's very far fetched analysis). No-ones disputing that. No-ones disputing that prime Lennox was better.

However, Vitali did well in the fight and I believe Lennox judged that he couldn't beat him in a rematch.

Drexl

07-01-2007, 02:31 AM

Lennox win on cuts, a completely legit TKO victory (unlike Byrd's, despite Drexl's very far fetched analysis).

Care to explain how it is far-fetched that repeatedly missing and having your punches slapped sideways WON'T contribute to a shoulder injury?

You ARE aware that Holyfield suffered the exact same injury in the same way against the exact same opponent, right? Coincidence...? Only if you are a moron.

Oh, and I love the "Lennox sat down harder, therefore he was more exhausted" argument. Thanks for providing me with a few chuckles by bringing up that one. :yep

Shamrock

07-01-2007, 03:28 AM

Let me refresh your failing memory with the link: [Only registered and activated users can see links]

Lewis walked back to his corner ( he had lost the round but was not punch drunk. Lennox ( who hit again well after the bell) collapsed exhausted into his corner, punched out.

He could have been KOd in the 7 th.

The point is , no-one KNOWS what would have happened next.

Lennox win on cuts, a completely legit TKO victory (unlike Byrd's, despite Drexl's very far fetched analysis). No-ones disputing that. No-ones disputing that prime Lennox was better.

However, Vitali did well in the fight and I believe Lennox judged that he couldn't beat him in a rematch.

And it was due to the massive cut that Vitali's onslaught slowed down, Lennox couldnt risk another cut in a rematch! Without the cut, I believe Klitschko would be a threat to Lennox's prime. Lennox never fought someone as big and determined. Luck was with Lennox this time, enuff said!

cuchulain

07-01-2007, 03:35 AM

Care to explain how it is far-fetched that repeatedly missing and having your punches slapped sideways WON'T contribute to a shoulder injury?

You ARE aware that Holyfield suffered the exact same injury in the same way against the exact same opponent, right? Coincidence...? Only if you are a moron.

Oh, and I love the "Lennox sat down harder, therefore he was more exhausted" argument. Thanks for providing me with a few chuckles by bringing up that one. :yep

I'm missing your point here Drexl.

Re: Lennox, I have stated that he won a legit TKO. My post in response to PATSYS very foolish statements: I know personally that Vitali would have been KO'd in the 7th...

and: It doesn't take a genius to figure out what would happen next...

On what would happen next, opinion is roughly equally divided and as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, it's unknowable.

My point re how they each sat down was in response to the idea put forth by PATSYS that Vitali was punch drunk and Lennox was ready to pounce in the next round.

What the clip shows is two exhausted fighters at the end of the round, and if anything, Lennox looks more exhausted.

And if pointing that out brings you a few chuckles, then you're pretty simple to amuse (or maybe just pretty simple).

Drexl

07-01-2007, 03:42 AM

I'm missing your point here Drexl.

Did somebody say "simple"...? :yep

I notice you didn't (couldn't) explain how my description of the LEGIT Byrd victory was "far-fetched"...

:think

:yep

Fallow

07-01-2007, 03:43 AM

Man, you guys make this way too easy.

Easy? I hate to rain on your parade, but you're getting your ass kicked.

Drexl

07-01-2007, 03:49 AM

My son thinks I'm special and that's all that really matters. :tong :D

How old is he?

I suspect he is the one providing you with your opinions. :think

cuchulain

07-01-2007, 06:25 AM

Did somebody say "simple"...? :yep

I notice you didn't (couldn't) explain how my description of the LEGIT Byrd victory was "far-fetched"...

:think

:yep

I already described that analysis as far fetched.

If your strategy for winning fights is to hope that your opponent tears his shoulder in missing you while, at the same time he's landing enough on you to win nearly every round, I would call that 'far-fetched.'

If things transpired in your favour in such a case, I would call that 'lucky.'

As most folks know (including Chris), this loss was on pretty much of a technicality, something like Montel's 'victory' over Roy, officially legit, but...

The record books don't tell the tull story in either case.

If that's not evident, then SIMPLE might be too weak of a term.

JoeyP

07-01-2007, 06:01 PM

How many stiches did VK need in that fight again? I remember reading that it was the most in HW championship bout over the last 30-30 years or so. I don't ever remember seing a cut that bad in a HW championship fight.

Mr "T"

07-01-2007, 06:59 PM

Mr "T"

07-01-2007, 07:02 PM

And at least Ike managed to get past "Killer" Chris Byrd. :yep
So did Wlad, in equally brutal fashion.:yep

Vantage_West

07-01-2007, 07:13 PM

And against Bryd he was winning, but injured. He obviously would have beaten Bryd, so you really can't count that against him either.no byrd was turning the fight round vitali was missing more and more until byrd ducked every vitali right hand making vitali throw further and further to try and it him...and he went to far and popped his shoulder....lucky on byrds part but it wasnt likehe was going to win but byrd did deserve it in the end.

Vantage_West

07-01-2007, 07:16 PM

I already described that analysis as far fetched.

If your strategy for winning fights is to hope that your opponent tears his shoulder in missing you while, at the same time he's landing enough on you to win nearly every round, I would call that 'far-fetched.'

If things transpired in your favour in such a case, I would call that 'lucky.'

As most folks know (including Chris), this loss was on pretty much of a technicality, something like Montel's 'victory' over Roy, officially legit, but...

The record books don't tell the tull story in either case.

If that's not evident, then SIMPLE might be too weak of a term.wait montell griffin wasnt losing watch it roy jones looked awful missing all those shots

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 07:20 PM

The weird thing about Vitali is, despite his high stoppage percentage, he wasn't a big puncher. He didn't throw many combinations, and he lacked one-punch power against all but the weakest chins (like Hide).

What he did have was a high workrate for such a big man (in an age of heavyweight sloths) and a limited but very accurate offense. Against Sanders, it was really an exhaustion stoppage (Corrie was too tired to protect himself). In fact, the Sanders fight demonstrates my point: against a boxer with a highly suspect chin, Vitali failed to KO or even knock down his opponent. However, his relentlessness and workrate left Sanders too tired and cut up to go on.

I've deliberately avoided talking about opposition, as that has already been discussed to its limits in this thread. The fact is, Vitali was a busy and lanky boxer who kept the pressure on his opponents without much thought of taking the easy route to a decision. I hated his ugly style, but it WAS effective in facing the opponents he faced up until Lewis (and afterwards).

Fighting Weight

07-01-2007, 08:03 PM

Drexl

07-01-2007, 08:19 PM

I already described that analysis as far fetched.

If your strategy for winning fights is to hope that your opponent tears his shoulder in missing you while, at the same time he's landing enough on you to win nearly every round, I would call that 'far-fetched.'

Have you ever seen Chris Byrd fight before, EVER? That is his tactic in EVERY fight. He doesn't plan on winning by injury, only a moron would assume that's what I was saying. But he uses those tactics to avoid the shots make his opponent reluctant to throw those punches.

Of course he didn't plan for the Vitali to tear his shoulder, but Vitali's fragile body led to those tactics being more effective than even Byrd would have thought.

I am asking you to prove to me that it is far-fetched to say that Vitali's piss-poor connect percentage directly led to the injury. You still haven't managed that.

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 08:20 PM

So to sum up, if the era hadn't been so shit then VITLAY would never have been heard of :deal

He'd be at least a fringe contender in any era post 1920.

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 08:22 PM

Fighting Weight

07-01-2007, 08:23 PM

He'd be at least a fringe contender in any era post 1920.

Yeah, fringe contender is about right.

I'd never deny something as sensible as that, but it's the 'VITLAY and WALD would beat prime Ali/Holmes/Tyson because they are tall' that I fight against....sure you understand.

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 08:25 PM

I'd never deny something as sensible as that, but it's the 'VITLAY and WALD would beat prime Ali/Holmes/Tyson because they are tall' that I fight against....sure you understand.

I quite understand. But remember the wise words of Ronnie James Dio- "If you listen to fools, the mob rules."

Fighting Weight

07-01-2007, 08:27 PM

I quite understand. But remember the wise words of Ronnie James Dio- "If you listen to fools, the mob rules."

Oh I don't listen to them, but I've got no problem with mocking them :hey

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 08:28 PM

Oh I don't listen to them, but I've got no problem with mocking them :hey

:good

Right on mate.

Fighting Weight

07-01-2007, 08:30 PM

At 12 you think you're growed up :lol: :lol: :lol: what other reason is there for such hatred of Vitali with you and Drexl other than he made Lewis look very ordinary and only won through an injury (meaning indecisively) and the fact that Vit is a white man :huh

VITLAY made Lewis look ordinary for 2 rounds.....maybe but we're talking about a way past it and ring rusty Lewis here. Once Lewis overcame the rust then you could see with your own eyes what happened :deal

Do I need to post the pics of VITLAYS face after the fight again to show who looked 'ordinary' after the fact???

Fighting Weight

07-01-2007, 08:32 PM

:good

Right on mate.

Nice one. See my post before this for a perfect example :D

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 08:37 PM

Nice one. See my post before this for a perfect example :D

A fine one indeed. Lewis-Vitali was essentially a six round exposure of Vitali's style: a predictable offense and a leaky defense. Against an ATG, that's just not going to cut it. Imagine what a prime Tyson or prime Louis would have done with that Lewis, who worse than the Lewis that lost to Rahman.

Fighting Weight

07-01-2007, 08:47 PM

A fine one indeed. Lewis-Vitali was essentially a six round exposure of Vitali's style: a predictable offense and a leaky defense. Against an ATG, that's just not going to cut it. Imagine what a prime Tyson or prime Louis would have done with that Lewis, who worse than the Lewis that lost to Rahman.

Precisely the point that gets lost on the VITLAY lovers, who claim that Lewis was at his very best in that fight :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

VITLAY, much like WALD, has been found wanting at the highest level, and every reasonable boxing fan sees it.

The Kurgan

07-01-2007, 08:52 PM

VITLAY, much like WALD, has been found wanting at the highest level, and every reasonable boxing fan sees it.

I'm probably biased because I like Wlad a lot (primarily because he reminds me of Frank Bruno) but I wouldn't compare him with Vitali. Wlad's wins over Sam Peter, Chris Byrd, Calvin Brock and soon against Lamon Brewster show that, while unreliable, he CAN produce wins at the top level.

Wlad is also much more technically sound than Vitali.

thesandman

07-01-2007, 09:42 PM

I even read he was training VERY hard for the Vitali fight.

You "read" something that isn't true then.

Lewis was training to fight Kirk Johnson, a match he was expected to cruise through. Lewis being an arrogant SOB refused to learn from the Rahman fight, and again under prepared for it.

Even Vitlay knew this, and his quotes about Lewis being heavy and showing a lack of condition have been well documented on millions of (pre crash) threads here. Vitlays plan was to have the fight go late because of it.

What it shows to me is that Vitlay and his corner simply couldn't adjust after the cut, as it was obvious the fight was going to be stopped soon. I'm surprised it went that long.

If the roles were reversed, and Lewis/Steward knew they had 2, 3 rounds at the most to get a guy out of there, I think they would have handled it better.

As it was, it was OBVIOUS that Lewis had zero interest in the scorecards, he knew it was going to be a stoppage one way or the other. He just made sure it was in his favour.

Vitlay was still fighting as though points mattered. Lewis wasn't.

Mr "T"

07-01-2007, 10:03 PM

OF COURSE HE DID!

Byrd made Vitali miss with his looping haymakers, and did his usual trick of swatting punches away which puts lateral strain on the shoulder joint.

Byrd's style and defence, along with Vitali's lack of accuracy and inability to land properly directly led to the shoulder injury.

Therefore Byrd proved himself to be the superior fighter on the night - Byrd survived Vitali's assault, but Vitali couldn't last the distance against Byrd's tactics.

In the Lennox fight, Lennox's accuracy along with Vitali's lack of defence and inability to defend an obvious target led to the facial damage.

Therefore Lennox proved himself superior to Vitali on the night - he survived Vitali's assault, Vitali couldn't withstand his.
You are out of whack! No way you will listen to reason.

Mr "T"

07-01-2007, 10:06 PM

Yeah, fringe contender is about right.

I'd never deny something as sensible as that, but it's the 'VITLAY and WALD would beat prime Ali/Holmes/Tyson because they are tall' that I fight against....sure you understand.
You guys are s...ooo..oo predicable. Please say something different.

Shamrock

07-01-2007, 10:07 PM

You "read" something that isn't true then.

Lewis was training to fight Kirk Johnson, a match he was expected to cruise through. Lewis being an arrogant SOB refused to learn from the Rahman fight, and again under prepared for it.

Even Vitlay knew this, and his quotes about Lewis being heavy and showing a lack of condition have been well documented on millions of (pre crash) threads here. Vitlays plan was to have the fight go late because of it.

What it shows to me is that Vitlay and his corner simply couldn't adjust after the cut, as it was obvious the fight was going to be stopped soon. I'm surprised it went that long.

If the roles were reversed, and Lewis/Steward knew they had 2, 3 rounds at the most to get a guy out of there, I think they would have handled it better.

As it was, it was OBVIOUS that Lewis had zero interest in the scorecards, he knew it was going to be a stoppage one way or the other. He just made sure it was in his favour.

Vitlay was still fighting as though points mattered. Lewis wasn't.

Lewis didn't forecast that cut! It was a fluke which he wasn't prepared to risk in a rematch! Lewis was very very lucky that cut occured, he knew that and avoided the rematch. He retired at 38, Holyfield is still knocking em over at 43. :hi:

Lance_Uppercut

07-01-2007, 10:09 PM

Shamrock

07-01-2007, 10:22 PM

Great example with Holyfield Shammy. He's REALLY knocking em over huh?:lol:

That avatar pic seems like you havn't got everything on your chosen location Lance :lol:

thesandman

07-01-2007, 11:03 PM

Lewis didn't forecast that cut! It was a fluke which he wasn't prepared to risk in a rematch! Lewis was very very lucky that cut occured, he knew that and avoided the rematch. He retired at 38, Holyfield is still knocking em over at 43. :hi:

I didn't say he did, did I?

I said he adapted to something that happened, and changed his plan.

Vitlay didn't.

Who knows how Lewis would have fought after Round 3 if the cut didn't happen. Thing is, it did.

He, and everybody watching the fight APART from Vitlay and his corner, knew it wasn't going to points. So why fight like it was?

This fact makes the scorecards totally and completely irrelevant.

C Money

07-01-2007, 11:15 PM

Vitaly isnt the best Klitschko and I cant believe the guy is getting as much hype as he does from some.V. Klitschko isnt very skilled and got by on size with mostly overmatched and out of shape opponents. He did have the better CHIN and perhaps heart of the brothers. That's about the kindest praise I can give him from a boxing perspective.

As for Lewis, Lennox was half focused, conditioned, and FILMED a movie in the run up to the fight, AND STILL WON:good

Drexl

07-02-2007, 07:33 AM

Didn't McCline or another of Byrd's opponents for his worthless illegitimate anti-boxing non-credible non-linear non-important shit corrupt "title" injure his shoulder?

Holyfield and Golota both had shoulder injuries after fighting Byrd. Golota's wasonly a minor recurrance of an old injury, but Holy's was serious enough to require surgery.

Drexl

07-02-2007, 07:38 AM

You are out of whack! No way you will listen to reason.

Are you going to actually debate the points I made, or just disagree without backing it up? :blood

Drexl

07-02-2007, 07:38 AM

You guys are s...ooo..oo predicable. Please say something different.

Please say something intelligent. :blood

Drexl

07-02-2007, 07:43 AM

I didn't say he did, did I?

I said he adapted to something that happened, and changed his plan.

Vitlay didn't.

Who knows how Lewis would have fought after Round 3 if the cut didn't happen. Thing is, it did.

He, and everybody watching the fight APART from Vitlay and his corner, knew it wasn't going to points. So why fight like it was?

This fact makes the scorecards totally and completely irrelevant.

Yep. He saw a weakness and took advantage.

It's called experience & tactical intelligence. Something Vitali lacks (along with victories over elite opposition.)

Drexl

07-02-2007, 07:47 AM

Holyfield is still knocking em over at 43.

:lol:

Yeah.... Maddalone, Oquendo, Savarese and Jeremy Bates

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

He may be beating scrubs at 43 but he was losing to Donald, Toney & Byrd at 40/41. :yep

Drexl

07-02-2007, 08:05 PM

If your strategy for winning fights is to hope that your opponent tears his shoulder in missing you while, at the same time he's landing enough on you to win nearly every round, I would call that 'far-fetched.'

If things transpired in your favour in such a case, I would call that 'lucky.'

Hmmm.... still no reply I see. :think :yep

So I guess by your reasoning, if a fighter throws a body-shot hoping to bring his opponents guard down & set up a head-shot but happens to break his opponents rib and scores a TKO win.... that win is not legit?

:lol:

RAMPAGE0017

07-02-2007, 08:10 PM

It's called experience & tactical intelligence. Something Vitali lacks (along with victories over elite opposition.)

How do you figure that? I always thought he was a really crafty fighter.

Drexl

07-02-2007, 08:13 PM

How do you figure that? I always thought he was a really crafty fighter.

He had a gashed eye and still went on all-out attack against Lewis rather than protecting it.
Result - TKO LOSS

He had a massive lead but quit when he could have won without throwing a single punch against Byrd.
Result - TKO LOSS

:patsch

Fighting Weight

07-02-2007, 08:17 PM

He had a gashed eye and still went on all-out attack against Lewis rather than protecting it.
Result - TKO LOSS

He had a massive lead but quit when he could have won without throwing a single punch against Byrd.
Result - TKO LOSS

:patsch

Yes but he was ahead on the cards in both of those, and he quit craftily against Byrd, and was stopped inbetween rounds whilst busily plotting his cunning for round 7 against Lewis.

RAMPAGE0017

07-02-2007, 08:21 PM

He had a gashed eye and still went on all-out attack against Lewis rather than protecting it.
Result - TKO LOSS

I can't say I agree with that, Vitali for most of the fight was avoiding a lot of Lewis' shots, but you can only protect a cut as bad as his so much. And let's keep in mind that Vitali was fighting an intelligent fighter in his own right that night. I don't see how this should reflect his in-ring intelligence.

He had a massive lead but quit when he could have won without throwing a single punch against Byrd.
Result - TKO LOSS

:patsch

I don't see how this reflects his ring-intelligence, either.. I'm sure Klitschko even knew that he was winning that fight, but that right there should tell you how severely the pain in his shoulder must've been. Only Vitali knows how painful the injury was.

Mr "T"

07-02-2007, 08:21 PM

Are you going to actually debate the points I made, or just disagree without backing it up? :blood
How would you like a Byrd/Vitali rematch?Who would you pick? Byrd?Your facts are far-fetched--whatever happened that night had nothing to do with the Byrd strategy-just luck from a worn out kick boxer.I say the worn-out kick boxer KO's Byrd next time. You want to make a bet?
You just rain on the K'bros...who do you pick with Brew fight? Don't tell me.
You need to be fair.

Drexl

07-02-2007, 08:29 PM

I can't say I agree with that, Vitali for most of the fight was avoiding a lot of Lewis' shots, but you can only protect a cut as bad as his so much. And let's keep in mind that Vitali was fighting an intelligent fighter in his own right that night. I don't see how this should reflect his in-ring intelligence.
When the cut was opened, it wasn't too bad. 3 rounds later, it was one of the worst cuts ever seen in boxing.

Plenty of fighters have been cut against intelligent opposition and managed to limit the damage. Vitali didn't even try to keep the guard up on the side that was injured. That's dumb, no matter how you try to spin it.

Either he didn't protect is eye well enough by choice
or
he couldn't protect is eye well enough because of a lack of defensive skill.

Take your pick.

Either way, it's a negative against Vitali.

I don't see how this reflects his ring-intelligence, either.. I'm sure Klitschko even knew that he was winning that fight, but that right there should tell you how severely the pain in his shoulder must've been. Only Vitali knows how painful the injury was.
Holyfield got the exact same injury against the exact same opponent, but kept going to the end. He lost because the injury happened in round 2 and he didn't have the lead, but Vitali just had to stand there.

Take a look at the fight. Vitali was still throwing punches with the injured arm in the round before the stoppage. He wasn't even wincing.

Drexl

07-02-2007, 08:35 PM

How would you like a Byrd/Vitali rematch?Who would you pick? Byrd?Your facts are far-fetched--whatever happened that night had nothing to do with the Byrd strategy-just luck from a worn out kick boxer.I say the worn-out kick boxer KO's Byrd next time. You want to make a bet?
You just rain on the K'bros...who do you pick with Brew fight? Don't tell me.
You need to be fair.

I bet you a bazillion dollars that Vitali never beats (or even fights) Byrd in the future.

Byrd's style and tactics led directly to the injury TKO. He didn't intend it but that doesn't make it either lucky or not legit. Refer to my example of the guy who breaks the opponents rib without intending it.

If you intend to KO an opponent with a jab/right cross/hook/uppercut combo, but happen to KO him with the cross, is that not legit because you meant to KO him with the uppercut?

Wlad is going to destroy Brewster. Why do you ask?

Fighting Weight

07-02-2007, 08:35 PM

Drexl

07-02-2007, 08:37 PM

The same worn out kick boxer who years later took a prime (if you'll believe the Klit fans) Lewis to the limit??

Damn, imagine how good VITLAY could have been if he'd never kick-boxed!! :nut :nut

Well that embarassing KO by Pele Reid took a lot out of him. :yep

RAMPAGE0017

07-02-2007, 08:42 PM

When the cut was opened, it wasn't too bad. 3 rounds later, it was one of the worst cuts ever seen in boxing.

Plenty of fighters have been cut against intelligent opposition and managed to limit the damage. Vitali didn't even try to keep the guard up on the side that was injured. That's dumb, no matter how you try to spin it.

Either he didn't protect is eye well enough by choice
or
he couldn't protect is eye well enough because of a lack of defensive skill.

Take your pick.

Either way, it's a negative against Vitali.

Plenty, but not all. And either way, you're going to come to the conclusion of his tactical skills from one fight against a great fighter? He's open to right hands a lot because he holds his left hand very low, and just because one fighter successfully landed some good ones on him, it doesn't reflect his overall skill as a fighter.

Holyfield got the exact same injury against the exact same opponent, but hept going to the end. He lost because the injury happened in round 2 and he didn't have the lead, but Vitali just had to stand there.

Take a look at the fight. Vitali was still throwing punches with the injured arm in the round before the stoppage. He wasn't even wincing.

Unless you can somehow jump into the bodies of Holyfield and Klitschko, there's no way of telling to what degree each fighter's injury was. Only the fighter's themselves can answer that. And I'm still not sure how this is supposed to reflect Vitali's ring-skills.

Fighting Weight

07-02-2007, 08:42 PM

Well that embarassing KO by Pele Reid took a lot out of him. :yep

No.....I'm not joining in....just this once :D

Fighting Weight

07-02-2007, 08:46 PM

How would you like a Byrd/Vitali rematch?Who would you pick? Byrd?Your facts are far-fetched--whatever happened that night had nothing to do with the Byrd strategy-just luck from a worn out kick boxer.I say the worn-out kick boxer KO's Byrd next time. You want to make a bet?
You just rain on the K'bros...who do you pick with Brew fight? Don't tell me.
You need to be fair.

By the way I ain't making a pick on the WALDO V Brewster fight but will give WALDO his props if he wins it. I've slated WALDO in the past, absolutely SLATED him for refusing to avenge his losses and give him big respect for finally attempting to avenge one.

I do think the fight may be closer than people think, maybe WALDO will blast Brewster out of there but I wouldn't be surprised if Brewster blasted WALDO too. Brewster definately has the mental edge, WALDO has the edge in skills. I never underestimate the mental edge though, a lot of fights have been won or lost because of it.

Thing is we ain't talking about WALDO here we're talking about VITLAY.

cuchulain

07-02-2007, 08:49 PM

Have you ever seen Chris Byrd fight before, EVER? That is his tactic in EVERY fight. He doesn't plan on winning by injury, only a moron would assume that's what I was saying. But he uses those tactics to avoid the shots make his opponent reluctant to throw those punches.

Of course he didn't plan for the Vitali to tear his shoulder, but Vitali's fragile body led to those tactics being more effective than even Byrd would have thought.

I am asking you to prove to me that it is far-fetched to say that Vitali's piss-poor connect percentage directly led to the injury. You still haven't managed that.

Next you'll be telling us that Calzaghe and Mayweather opponents should take power punches to the head in hopes that Joe or Floyd will break their brittle hands.

Byrd was LUCKY, period. He could not have KOd Vitali if he'd been given a baseball bat for the last round of that fight. And that was the only way he could win if it continued.

Vitali decided his future boxing career (and health) was more important than the W in this case, and like a tennis player (leading in a match ) who sprains his ankle, he did the wise thing and withdrew.

The only folks who put a different spin on it are guys who would have denigrated Vitali anyway, whether he had won or lost. You only have to look around this thread to hear the rationalizations when he demolished Sanders and Johnson. (Old, fat pick your excuse.)

A healthy Vitali is far superior to Byrd. A healthy Wlad is too.

Fighting Weight

07-02-2007, 08:52 PM

A healthy Vitali is far superior to Byrd. A healthy Wlad is too.

Just like a tougher-skinned VITLAY is superior to Lewis, and a harder chinned WALDO is superior to Sanders.

Mr "T"

07-02-2007, 09:05 PM

By the way I ain't making a pick on the WALDO V Brewster fight but will give WALDO his props if he wins it. I've slated WALDO in the past, absolutely SLATED him for refusing to avenge his losses and give him big respect for finally attempting to avenge one.

I do think the fight may be closer than people think, maybe WALDO will blast Brewster out of there but I wouldn't be surprised if Brewster blasted WALDO too. Brewster definately has the mental edge, WALDO has the edge in skills. I never underestimate the mental edge though, a lot of fights have been won or lost because of it.

Thing is we ain't talking about WALDO here we're talking about VITLAY.
I know the subject is on Vitali, but I'm curious to know who Drexl picks in the Brew/Wlad fight? What's his take? He seems to be a Klit hater.

thesandman

07-02-2007, 10:12 PM

Next you'll be telling us that Calzaghe and Mayweather opponents should take power punches to the head in hopes that Joe or Floyd will break their brittle hands.

Ludicrous or not, I've actually read respected writers on other sites saying exactly that. That fighters will duck their heads to take those guys punches in the forehead or top of the head to try and damage their hands.

Would I do it? Fuck no. But I have seriously read that before.

You only have to look around this thread to hear the rationalizations when he demolished Sanders and Johnson. (Old, fat pick your excuse.)

A healthy Vitali is far superior to Byrd. A healthy Wlad is too.

Was Sanders old, and coming of just one good win in years? Yes/No.
Was Johnson really, really fat? Yes/No.

Lewis is superior to Rahman too, but he still lost to him. Loads of guys lose to guys they shouldn't, that's boxing.

Did Byrd get lucky? Yep, he sure did. But he won. End of story.
And being able to last a full fight is a major part in boxing.

deram

07-02-2007, 11:26 PM

Herbie Hide is also a good boxer but Vitali KO'd him so I guess Herbie just flat out sucks because he lost to Vitali right Fightweight............?

Is that the only measuring stick you use to judge fighters? How well they did against a Klitschko?

Larry Donald is also a good boxer with a solid chin but VitKlit Ko'd his ass didn't he? Something that Valuev couldn't do, and Donald beat Holyfield didn't he?

That is the best I have ever seen a Klitscho. Against Hide. Hide from that fight would beat any current HW imo. outside of Wlad.... and that would be an even fight than Wlad might loose.

cuchulain

07-03-2007, 12:38 AM

Just like a tougher-skinned VITLAY is superior to Lewis, and a harder chinned WALDO is superior to Sanders.

Slight difference.

Sanders KO'd Wlad by landing on his chin with considerable impact, several times.

i.e. SANDERS knocked Wlad out.

Lewis TKO'd Vitali by landing on his eye with a slicing shot. He followed up by landing on it some more, till, in your poetic description, it looked like a used tampon.

i.e. LENNOX stopped Vitali on cuts.

Vitali out-pointed Chris for most of the fight. Near the end he tore his shoulder and withdrew.

i.e. VITALI injured himself

Note the diference. VITALI injured himself.

(Unless you buy into Drexl's theory that the shoulder injury was Byrd's strategy from the beginning and he was willing to take an eight round clobbering because he knew that sooner or later Vitali would injure himself.)

Drexl

07-03-2007, 01:05 AM

Slight difference.

Sanders KO'd Wlad by landing on his chin with considerable impact, several times.

i.e. SANDERS knocked Wlad out.

Lewis TKO'd Vitali by landing on his eye with a slicing shot. He followed up by landing on it some more, till, in your poetic description, it looked like a used tampon.

i.e. LENNOX stopped Vitali on cuts.

Vitali out-pointed Chris for most of the fight. Near the end he tore his shoulder and withdrew.

i.e. VITALI injured himself

Note the diference. VITALI injured himself.

(Unless you buy into Drexl's theory that the shoulder injury was Byrd's strategy from the beginning and he was willing to take an eight round clobbering because he knew that sooner or later Vitali would injure himself.)

How many times must you be told that it was NOT Byrd's strategy to injure Vitali's shoulder, but it is ALWAYS his strategy to make the opponent miss and swat punches away.

The fact that this led to Vitali pussying out was a bonus, but NOT lucky. Byrd used the tactics on purpose. the outcome was unexpected but the FACT is that the way Byrd fought DIRECTLY led to the injury.

....unless you are saying Vitali missed on purpose....?

Drexl

07-03-2007, 01:08 AM

I know the subject is on Vitali, but I'm curious to know who Drexl picks in the Brew/Wlad fight? What's his take? He seems to be a Klit hater.

I already answered that.

Wlad is going to destroy Brewster. Why do you ask?

:deal

Why don't you try reading next time?

smokey

07-03-2007, 01:56 AM

Unless you can somehow jump into the bodies of Holyfield and Klitschko, there's no way of telling to what degree each fighter's injury was. Only the fighter's themselves can answer that. And I'm still not sure how this is supposed to reflect Vitali's ring-skills.

Rotator cuff injuries hurt, but a champ would have made it through the last couple rounds if they truly had the fight in the bag. I have a torn rotator cuff RIGHT NOW. It's not a complate tear, but it painfull to make any motion that involves my arm being raised over my shoulder. I played catch yeserday with my kid. I threw side arm.

My point is that, I, just a regular dude who admittedly has a high pain treshold, but still just a regular dude can do some athletic stuff with a rotator cuff tear that's going to require surgury. With all that was on the line, why could Vitaly just stink it out and make it out of the fight? If the rotator cuff was a worthy excuse for quitting, then it would be a worthy excuse of giving up the last rounds just covering up and fighting one handed... right?

Watch the fight again. I think you're wrong about "Byrd couldn't knock him out with a bat." Byrd clocked him good toward the end of the round, and he looked like he was ready to call it quits. He hurt his shoulder, and realized he might have to go through some pain for the win and quit. I like my fighters a little tougher than someone willing to give up a major fight because he's scared of getting hit by Chris Byrd for a couple rounds. Of course, if I'm wrong and Byrd was completely incapable of hurting him, that just makes him a bigger puss for quitting.

I've NEVER seen what makes Vitali so great. Wlad has actually done tons more in the ring, even with his defeats. Vitali's biggest "win" was a TKO loss due to having his head split open BY A PUNCH (which makes it a KO. Punch damage=inability to fight)! As champ his big title defense was against a completely fat bloated Kirk Johnson... AFTER being to injured to fight Rahman. Then he bailed out of a couple fights and retired. OH! And he got the title from a dude who was a semi-retired boxer/full time golf pro who wasn't supposed to end up with the title.

Yeah, Sanders had a hell of a left hand. Kirk Johnson USED to be considered dangerous, and Vitali was standing in with the dominant heavyweight of the late 90's/early 2000's. That is a good START. It doesn't create a hall of fame mystique. Vitali has done exactly as much as any of the other faceless title holders now... actually less than Wlad, and Ibragimoc/Chagaev are unifying in a high risk fight for both of them. Shit. Shannon Briggs has a more impressive resume.

Mr "T"

07-03-2007, 02:52 AM

I already answered that.

:deal

Why don't you try reading next time?
Because I don't live on this board and sniff thru every post, smart ass. Nor will I look in the archives, I think I know your decision already by the defensive position you are taking. BTW, Brewster is a warrior, and I will be the first to say he was the better man if he wins, will you take this opportunity to show that you are a man by admitting that Wlad was the better man if he loses? It'll help you in the long run and maybe get rid of the "chip" you have on your shoulder.:deal

Drexl

07-03-2007, 03:29 AM

Because I don't live on this board and sniff thru every post, smart ass. Nor will I look in the archives,

But you will take the time to post the same question twice without looking back ONE page to see if has already been answered?

:lol:

I think I know your decision already by the defensive position you are taking. BTW, Brewster is a warrior, and I will be the first to say he was the better man if he wins, will you take this opportunity to show that you are a man by admitting that Wlad was the better man if he loses?

Can you repeat the question, this time in ENGLISH. I have no idea what you are saying here. :huh

It'll help you in the long run and maybe get rid of the "chip" you have on your shoulder.:deal

What chip? I have said countless times on thin board that Wlad is clearly the best HW in the world right now. Face it, your claim that I am a "Klit hater" is simply wrong.

All I am doing is looking at the beating Brewster was getting before Wlad ran out of gas in the first fight, adding Wlads improvement, then adding Brewster's lay-off and injuries. Conclusion - Brewster is getting his ass handed to him, barring another miracle.

The Kurgan

07-03-2007, 04:58 AM

That is the best I have ever seen a Klitscho. Against Hide. Hide from that fight would beat any current HW imo. outside of Wlad.... and that would be an even fight than Wlad might loose.

Unless any of them managed to hit a glancing arm-shot to the ear. Then Hide's in big trouble. :lol:

The Kurgan

07-03-2007, 05:00 AM

Holyfield and Golota both had shoulder injuries after fighting Byrd. Golota's wasonly a minor recurrance of an old injury, but Holy's was serious enough to require surgery.

I thought I remembered something like that. People injured their shoulder far too many times against Byrd to be a coincidence, just like people bled against Ali too often to be a coincidence.

Mr "T"

07-03-2007, 08:50 AM

But you will take the time to post the same question twice without looking back ONE page to see if has already been answered?

:lol:

Can you repeat the question, this time in ENGLISH. I have no idea what you are saying here. :huh

What chip? I have said countless times on thin board that Wlad is clearly the best HW in the world right now. Face it, your claim that I am a "Klit hater" is simply wrong.

All I am doing is looking at the beating Brewster was getting before Wlad ran out of gas in the first fight, adding Wlads improvement, then adding Brewster's lay-off and injuries. Conclusion - Brewster is getting his ass handed to him, barring another miracle.
My apologies, maybe I jumped the gun and took your comments out of context .I don't Wlad will steam-roll Brew, but this rematch definitely needed to be made.

Mendoza

07-03-2007, 12:15 PM

There are two extreme camps re: Vitali and both are equally misguided. He would have lost probably every round to Ali. Hes' not an ATG. A good number of past fighters would have beaten him (Louis, Foreman, Holmes, Marciano, Frazier, Tyson, Liston....all probably beat him)

On the other hand, there are those ( yourself and Fightingweight for example) who denigrate his notable accomplishments and rate him as a bum, or nothing special.

Both groups are wrong.
He is very over-rated by some, and very under-rated by others.

The truth is in between.

He was top dog for a time, and head-to-head, a difficult fight for any hw ever.

Ali lost many rounds to guys who could not wear Vitlai's trunks. To say he looses every round to Ali is fantasy. Moreover Vitali has only lost a maximum of two rounds his entire boxing career. This man could fight. Not even Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, or Lennox Lewis can claim this type of dominance on the score cards in their careers.

Who wins in a fantasy fight can be debated, but Vitlai's high knockout percentage and score cards can not.

cuchulain

07-03-2007, 09:03 PM

Ali lost many rounds to guys who could not wear Vitlai's trunks. To say he looses every round to Ali is fantasy. Moreover Vitali has only lost a maximum of two rounds his entire boxing career. This man could fight. Not even Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, or Lennox Lewis can claim this type of dominance on the score cards in their careers.

Who wins in a fantasy fight can be debated, but Vitlai's high knockout percentage and score cards can not.

Now you're forcing me to reverse the direction of my posts on this thread and address some of the wilder claims re: Vitali.

(As you can see, if you read all of what I've written, I 'm a Vitali fan and often feel he doesn't get fair recognition for his accomplishments)

When comparing Ali to Vitali, you have to compare their opposition.

Vitali never faced anyone of the calibre of Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Patterson, Young, or Terrell. Ali beat all of these guys, and most of them twice. Vitali's only big name was Lennox.

Ali, 1964 to 1967, probably wins a very lopsided decision over any version of Vitali. Vitali would not have had an answer for his speed and movement.

Give Vitali his dues but don't get carried away.

Fighting Weight

07-03-2007, 09:07 PM

Moreover Vitali has only lost a maximum of two rounds his entire boxing career. This man could fight. Not even Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, or Lennox Lewis can claim this type of dominance on the score cards in their careers.

Sorry, but that is utter fucking bullshit. If I could be bothered that'd be a Klitschko fan quote of the week right there.

CASH_718

07-03-2007, 09:09 PM

Drexl

07-04-2007, 04:56 AM

Who wins in a fantasy fight can be debated, but Vitlai's high knockout percentage and score cards can not.

Neither can the fact that Vitali was stopped both times he tried to step up to the elite.

Mendoza

07-04-2007, 08:27 AM

Now you're forcing me to reverse the direction of my posts on this thread and address some of the wilder claims re: Vitali.

(As you can see, if you read all of what I've written, I 'm a Vitali fan and often feel he doesn't get fair recognition for his accomplishments)

When comparing Ali to Vitali, you have to compare their opposition.

Vitali never faced anyone of the calibre of Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Patterson, Young, or Terrell. Ali beat all of these guys, and most of them twice. Vitali's only big name was Lennox.

Ali, 1964 to 1967, probably wins a very lopsided decision over any version of Vitali. Vitali would not have had an answer for his speed and movement.

Give Vitali his dues but don't get carried away.

I am intimately familiar with Ali's career in and out of the ring. Ali had a very close fight with Doug Jones, and was nearly KO'd by Henry Cooper prior to winning the title vs Liston.

Ali's technical flaws meant he had trouble with fighters who could jab at all stages of his career. See the Jones, Norton, Lyle, and Young fights, and though the example is not needed the Holmes fight. If you feel I have mis repsrented the material facts or jabs of the above fighters, this is a fine forum to debate the particulars.

Vitlai has a very good & hard jab, and he throws the punch often. To pick the 64-67' Ali over Vitlai is fine, but to pick a lopsided decision is where myth meets the sky. Look at history of Ali vs jabbers. Since Ali never fought a 6'8" man with skills it is unknown how good he would do. My best guess is Ali would be in for the fight of his life. If Norton could beat Ali once, and get robbed of a decision in the third fight, certainly one would have to open the door for Vitlai to do the same. The excuse that Ali was not in his prime was bunk. Whopping a shot Cleveland Williams, letting a small Folley win two rounds before Ko’ing the older fighter, watching Liston quit on his stool once, then roll over like a dog the second time, beating a slow as molasses Ernie Terell, and letting a small German fighter named Mildenberger win a few rounds was Ali's best stuff from 1966-1967. Ali was not untouchable from the years 1964-1967. Was Ali that good? Sure. Were his opponents that bad in the 1960's? I think the answer is the same.

Mendoza

07-04-2007, 08:29 AM

Sorry, but that is utter fucking bullshit. If I could be bothered that'd be a Klitschko fan quote of the week right there.

The facts are true the way I presented them. Vitlai has never lost more than two rounds on the cards in any of his professional fights. Throwing a temper tantrum like a 3 year old will change anything.

Drexl

07-04-2007, 09:45 AM

I am intimately familiar with Ali's career in and out of the ring. Ali had a very close fight with Doug Jones, and was nearly KO'd by Henry Cooper prior to winning the title vs Liston.
That was a flash Knockdown vs Cooper. He wasn't nearly KO'd.

And anyway, Cooper is aout the same level as anyone Vitali has beaten. His signature "win" was a loss, and the next biggest win after that was against a 38 year old retired semi-pro golfer.

Drexl

07-04-2007, 09:51 AM

The facts are true the way I presented them. Vitlai has never lost more than two rounds on the cards in any of his professional fights.
That fact only exists because Vitali had an awkward style that was difficult to look good against, coupled with the fact that he never faced a prime, in-shape elite fighter in his entire career. the closest he got was vs Byrd and Lewis, and he lost both of those fights.

Throwing a temper tantrum like a 3 year old will not change that stat either, which is way more significant than percentages and round scoring.

BTW, who has the highest connect percentage of right crosses after a double-jab against opponents over 6'-1"? You seem to be obsessed with meaningless stats, surely you know that one. :think Whoever it is should be proclaimed the greatest EVER, no matter who he fought.

:yep

madpup

07-04-2007, 10:23 AM

Vitali still has a lot to prove as a boxer, I think his comeback will answer a lot of questions, if he faces some of the top heavyweights of the current era.

His loss to Lewis was fair and square, but those who keep talking over and over about his loss to Byrd as it was some kind of gigantic failure on his behalf, come on guys, thats just irrational hating.

Mendoza

07-04-2007, 11:00 AM

Now you're forcing me to reverse the direction of my posts on this thread and address some of the wilder claims re: Vitali.

(As you can see, if you read all of what I've written, I 'm a Vitali fan and often feel he doesn't get fair recognition for his accomplishments)

When comparing Ali to Vitali, you have to compare their opposition.

Vitali never faced anyone of the calibre of Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Patterson, Young, or Terrell. Ali beat all of these guys, and most of them twice. Vitali's only big name was Lennox.

Ali, 1964 to 1967, probably wins a very lopsided decision over any version of Vitali. Vitali would not have had an answer for his speed and movement.

Give Vitali his dues but don't get carried away.

Bryd is pretty quick, defensive, and a southpaw. Vitlay was way ahead of him with only one good working arm. Ali's illegal behind the head clinching tactics would not work against a 6'8" bigger & stronger man. It worked with Frazier and a gassed Foreman, but Vitlay doesn't in-fight much. He forces the action on the outside. What I said was true. Ali even his prime years of 64-67' had issues. I highly doubt Vitali has issues with Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, or any of the fighters Ali fought from 64-67', except for Liston under the assumption that Liston was in there to win, which of course he wasn't vs Ali.

Vitali never faced anyone with the quality of Patterson, Young, or Terell? Who says the slow handed Terrell, The glassy jawed Patterson, or the wildly inconsistent Young were any better than Sanders, Donald, or Johnson? I am more than sure Vitlai has an easier time with Patterson, Terrell, and Young than Ali did. Vitlai would knock these guys out. Ali had his hands full vs Young, carried a past his best Patterson, and carried Terell.

While Ali certianly fought better competiton, the crux of my disagreement is your assessment that Ali easily outboxes Vitali. See the numerous examples of others who had their moments or even defeated the greatest well before his 34th birthday.

Mendoza

07-04-2007, 11:37 AM

That was a flash Knockdown vs Cooper. He wasn't nearly KO'd.

And anyway, Cooper is aout the same level as anyone Vitali has beaten. His signature "win" was a loss, and the next biggest win after that was against a 38 year old retired semi-pro golfer.

Are you bloody mad? A flash knockdown? Not a chance. Ali was hurt. ‘Enry clocked him. I suggest you watch the video tape. Dundee jumped into the ring to escort Ali to his corner. In the corner, Dundee used smelling salts to revive Ali. When Ali came to his eyes were like pin balls. Then he got off his stool, and Dundee had to sit him back down. Smelling slats are illegal in British boxing by the way. Then Dundee ripped up Ali's glove. Dundee admitted a 3-4 minute delay on interview right after the fight. It happened. Ali won the fight, but it was the Dundee who saved him on that night.

RAMPAGE0017

07-04-2007, 12:08 PM

Are you bloody mad? A flash knockdown? Not a chance. Ali was hurt. ‘Enry clocked him. I suggest you watch the video tape. Dundee jumped into the ring to escort Ali to his corner. In the corner, Dundee used smelling salts to revive Ali. When Ali came to his eyes were like pin balls. Then he got off his stool, and Dundee had to sit him back down. Smelling slats are illegal in British boxing by the way. Then Dundee ripped up Ali's glove. Dundee admitted a 3-4 minute delay on interview right after the fight. It happened. Ali won the fight, but it was the Dundee who saved him on that night.

Anybody calling that a flash knockdown is a severe Ali nut-hugger. Ali got rocked, all's you gotta do is look at his face.

RAMPAGE0017

07-04-2007, 12:18 PM

When comparing Ali to Vitali, you have to compare their opposition.

I disagree with that, cuch. I mean, if you want to look at it from just that standpoint you can, but I tend to look more towards what I've actually seen in the ring, as well as the opposition both have faced. But even then, it's difficult to measure their skills by just that because both fighters came from different eras. There's no way to tell whether Kirk Johnson could beat Ron Lyle, or whether Jerry Quarry could beat Sanders. After all, how many people do you think could have predicted that Ken Norton would've been able to beat Muhammad Ali? Or that Max Schmeling would've beaten Louis? Or even Sanders beating Wladimir? That's why you can't base a discussion only on the fact that guy A beat guy B. Know what I mean? You have to take each fighters actual strengths, weaknesses, and skills into account as well. And I think both Klitschko AND Ali have shown weaknesses that both fighters could exploit.