147 lb tourney - LEONARD V NAPOLES [Archive]

Bill Butcher

11-13-2007, 06:29 AM

Mantequilla

11-13-2007, 09:33 AM

Napoles is just too slow.

He'll get beat to punch consistently in a tough fight and stopped on cuts late while a few points behind.

Minotauro

11-13-2007, 02:16 PM

Naploes is to smooth if Duran could make Ray miss so could Napoles I actually don't think this would be an exciting fight but I see Napoles getting a close decision.

mcvey

11-13-2007, 02:57 PM

Napoles was the best welter of his time, Ray Leonard proved likewise by tko`ing Hearns but who would have won at 147 had these magnificent fighters met in their welterweight peaks ?

You have 2 days to decide, who has the unenviable task of facing either robinson or armstrong in the final, srl or jose napoles ?
Leonard by tko around the 10th ,Napoles eyes let him down ,he would have his moments ,but Leonards speed give him the edge here ,imo..

Manassa

11-13-2007, 02:58 PM

My mind tells me that Napoles would be too hard hitting for Leonard.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 03:04 PM

My mind tells me that Napoles would be too hard hitting for Leonard.

Not sure Naploes hit hard as Hearns. When you mean "too hard hitting for Leonard", do you mean knockout him out or hard hitting enough to put him into a defensive shell and outpoint him?

Manassa

11-13-2007, 03:08 PM

Not sure Naploes hit hard as Hearns. When you mean "too hard hitting for Leonard", do you mean knockout him out or hard hitting enough to put him into a defensive shell and outpoint him?

Knockout. Hearns nearly had him out in their fight, but he wasn't accurate or savvy enough to follow it up. Napoles would hound Leonard, hurt him, then knock his lights out.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 03:48 PM

Knockout. Hearns nearly had him out in their fight, but he wasn't accurate or savvy enough to follow it up. Napoles would hound Leonard, hurt him, then knock his lights out.

I can mind Hearns rocking Leonard's head back with a right hand during the first 5 rounds, probably the cleanest power punch of the fight from Hearns. But he never had Leonard anywhere close to "nearly out".

Leonard's senses were not scattered, certainly on the outside looking in. Maybe wishful thinking on your behalf.

Not sure about a prediction as never seen a prime Napoles.

Manassa

11-13-2007, 03:53 PM

I can mind Hearns rocking Leonard's head back with a right hand during the first 5 rounds, probably the cleanest power punch of the fight from Hearns. But he never had Leonard anywhere close to "nearly out".

Leonard's senses were not scattered, certainly on the outside looking in. Maybe wishful thinking on your behalf.

Not sure about a prediction as never seen a prime Napoles.

I distinctly remember Leonard going down twice.

196osh

11-13-2007, 04:02 PM

I distinctly remember Leonard going down twice.

You would assume that as this is a 147 lb tourney he would be talking about Leonard - Hearns at 147. Not when they weighed over 160 lbs, and were fighting for the supermiddle weight title. Why do you bring it up?

Robbi

11-13-2007, 04:02 PM

I distinctly remember Leonard going down twice.

"going down twice". Too much vodka my man, I know you like it.

Manassa. Any recommendations for prime Napoles fights?

Robbi

11-13-2007, 04:07 PM

I distinctly remember Leonard going down twice.

Its Leonard v Naploes at welterweight, not super-middleweight. Hearns' power was clearly at its most potent at welterweight, and so was Leonard's chin.

Mind the thread "147lb tourney".

Robbi

11-13-2007, 04:11 PM

You would assume that as this is a 147 lb tourney he would be talking about Leonard - Hearns at 147. Not when they weighed over 160 lbs, and were fighting for the supermiddle weight title. Why do you bring it up?

He brung it up because he reckons it helps his opinion look valid when picking Naploes over Leonard via knockout.

Leonard was past his prime when he rematched Hearns at 168lbs, how much he was past his sell by date is up for arguement, but it wasn't his prime. Thats written in stone IMO.

196osh

11-13-2007, 04:17 PM

He brung it up because he reckons it helps his opinion look valid when picking Naploes over Leonard via knockout.

Leonard was past his prime when he rematched Hearns at 168lbs, how much he was past his sell by date is up for arguement, but it wasn't his prime. Thats written in stone IMO.

Yeah i agree man. I don't think that you should bring up fights in different weight class's to fighters as differnt as Napoles 5' 8" ish and Tommy Hearns at over 6'. To illustrate how a fight between the other fighters would go.

He just seems not to like Leonard very much so bring's up negitive things as to make him look bad.

Nick Balsamo

11-13-2007, 04:19 PM

Knockout. Hearns nearly had him out in their fight, but he wasn't accurate or savvy enough to follow it up. Napoles would hound Leonard, hurt him, then knock his lights out.

I don't believe that Ray Leonard can't be KO'ed at 147.

Maybe SSR on his best night, but it's doubtful.

196osh

11-13-2007, 04:27 PM

I don't believe that Ray Leonard can't be KO'ed at 147.

Maybe SSR on his best night, but it's doubtful.

Anybody can be KO'd but I know what you mean. I think that he would be competative at 147 lbs with anyone at that weight ever, and beat all but a few. Ray Robinson is the only fighter that I would choose to beat Leonard most of the time.

Nick Balsamo

11-13-2007, 04:37 PM

Anybody can be KO'd but I know what you mean. I think that he would be competative at 147 lbs with anyone at that weight ever, and beat all but a few. Ray Robinson is the only fighter that I would choose to beat Leonard most of the time.

I agree with that too.

Yeah, any fighter can be KO'ed.. but it's like saying Ali can't be KO'ed at HW. It's very likely he'll finish the fight on his legs against any fighter ever.

196osh

11-13-2007, 04:48 PM

I agree with that too.

Yeah, any fighter can be KO'ed.. but it's like saying Ali can't be KO'ed at HW. It's very likely he'll finish the fight on his legs against any fighter ever.

Yeah, :).

So how do you see this one going?

Manassa

11-13-2007, 05:36 PM

If Hearns can knock Leonard down twice, Napoles can easily.

Mike T

11-13-2007, 05:40 PM

If Hearns can knock Leonard down twice, Napoles can easily.That was at 168.

Luigi1985

11-13-2007, 05:40 PM

I pick Napoles, the upset. His powerful combination-boxing would give SRL a lot of problems IMO...

Stonehands89

11-13-2007, 05:54 PM

Ray Leonard. Speed factor -hand and foot. And his power was nothing to scorn.

Manassa

11-13-2007, 05:58 PM

That was at 168.

Exactly. Hearns wasn't as good a puncher at 168lbs yet he still managed to floor Leonard - twice! Napoles would rip his head off.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:10 PM

Exactly. Hearns wasn't as good a puncher at 168lbs yet he still managed to floor Leonard - twice! Napoles would rip his head off.

Leonard's punch resistance wasn't the same at 168lbs either. The first thing that goes when a fighter is past his prime, the ability to take a punch.

Leonard took Hearns' best shots at welterweight and never flinched.

147 lb tourney - LEONARD V NAPOLES. Leonard was knocked down at 168lbs at the age of 32 by Hearns, not as a welterweight performing at his peak in his early-mid 20's.

My dinner with Conteh

11-13-2007, 06:15 PM

Leonard's punch resistance wasn't the same at 168lbs either. The first thing that goes when a fighter is past his prime, the ability to take a punch.

Leonard took Hearns' best shots at welterweight and never flinched.

147 lb tourney - LEONARD V NAPOLES. Leonard was knocked down at 168lbs at the age of 32 by Hearns, not as a welterweight performing at his peak in his early-mid 20's.

He went all jelly legged against Duran and, according to Rooster, did the Spaghetti Dance vs Geraldo. His chin was solid overall no doubts for there for me, not in the Napoles class though.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:16 PM

If Hearns can knock Leonard down twice, Napoles can easily.

Since your judging Leonard's ability to absorb a punch at super-middleweight years past his prime in a fantasy match-up at welterweight, I'll do the same with Napoles.

But I'll go one better and stick to the weight class in question.

If Stracey can knock down Napoles and stop him, Leonard smokes him sooner and in a more convincing manner.

Leonard KO3.

My dinner with Conteh

11-13-2007, 06:17 PM

Since your judging Leonard's ability to absorb a punch at super-middleweight years past his prime in a fantasy match-up at welterweight, I'll do the same with Napoles.

But I'll go one better and stick to the weight class in question.

If Stracey can knock down Napoles and stop him, Leonard smokes him sooner and in a more convincing manner.

Leonard KO3.

Napoles slipped against Stracey- and had a better chin than Leonard any day.

Manassa

11-13-2007, 06:18 PM

Leonard's punch resistance wasn't the same at 168lbs either. The first thing that goes when a fighter is past his prime, the ability to take a punch.

Leonard took Hearns' best shots at welterweight and never flinched.

147 lb tourney - LEONARD V NAPOLES. Leonard was knocked down at 168lbs at the age of 32 by Hearns, not as a welterweight performing at his peak in his early-mid 20's.

Hearns never landed on Leonard clean like Napoles would. Hearns couldn't land even if he wanted to, he was weight drained and struggling for stamina, conserving himself. His legs were shaky and he couldn't set himself.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:26 PM

Napoles slipped against Stracey- and had a better chin than Leonard any day.

He was stopped, right or wrong?

My dinner with Conteh

11-13-2007, 06:29 PM

He was stopped, right or wrong?

Of course he was. You said he was knocked down though. But the 'knock down' (slip) wasn't connected to the stoppage. Leonard would perhaps have been stopped more often, but fighting once or twice every six years dramatically reduces the odds of that happening.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:30 PM

Napoles slipped against Stracey- and had a better chin than Leonard any day.

Was Leonard dropped or stopped at welterweight?.

I will concede that Naploes stoppage loss against Stracey was at the very end of his career and past his prime, just as Leonard was against Hearns in the rematch. Maybe not as past as prime as Napoles was, but both were around 4-5 years past their peak.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:35 PM

The above is mainly a comparison to Manssa saying "Hearns dropped Leonard twice" which was at 168lbs while past his prime, and not to support my claim that Leonard would beat Napoles a 147lbs.

Manassa went off the railtracks, so thought I would as well.

Double stanards.

Manassa

11-13-2007, 06:36 PM

Was Leonard dropped or stopped at welterweight?.

I will concede that Naploes stoppage loss against Stracey was at the very end of his career and past his prime, just as Leonard was against Hearns in the rematch. Maybe not as past as prime as Napoles was, but both were around 4-5 years past their peak.

Leonard was wobbled bare times bruv, Napoles was hardcore man, he took shots off Monzon man, did Leonard do that? Nah, so den stop chattin' shit. You a chief blud...

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:36 PM

Hearns couldn't land even if he wanted to, he was weight drained and struggling for stamina

I'll be back later to piss over that with pretty solid evidence for good measure.

My dinner with Conteh

11-13-2007, 06:37 PM

Was Leonard dropped or stopped at welterweight?.

Was Terry Marsh ever beaten in a professional bout? Well, seeing though he only fought about 27 of 'em the odds are stacked in his favour somewhat. How many world welterweight title fights did Leonard have compared with Napoles? I think Jose was legitimately floored just once in his whole career (which was a bit more than 30 fights).

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:38 PM

Leonard was wobbled bare times bruv, Napoles was hardcore man, he took shots off Monzon man, did Leonard do that? Nah, so den stop chattin' shit. You a chief blud...

Leonard took shots off Hagler, and showed a good chin.

My dinner with Conteh

11-13-2007, 06:39 PM

Leonard took shots off Hagler, and showed a good chin.

He did have a good chin. But I can't remember him taking any really decent shots from Marvin.

Bummy Davis

11-13-2007, 06:40 PM

Napoles had a tendency to cut, he was a smooth boxer and had good power but Ray Leonard was one of the best amatuers I have ever seen and had great wins as a pro over Benitez,Duran and Hearns also Hagler at 160, Leonard dominated fighters at 147 and basically had the whole package, Napoles was a great fighter with wins over Curtis Cokes, Emile Griffith, Earnie Lopez was stopped by Billy Backus but beat him in a rematch...Leonard by TKO or UD

redrooster

11-13-2007, 06:41 PM

Leonard couldn't stand the heat coming from Napoles. He'd be forced out of his rhythm.

Ray likes a laid back pace and when he doesn't get it, becomes very uncomfortable as we all saw against Kevin Howard, and backs up boxing ineffectively as we saw with Duran, and of course with Terry Norris.

Leonard does much better with slow footed plodders and mediocre boxers where he has time to "think".

Neither am I sold on the strength of his chin. A good counter will get him in trouble as we saw with Geraldo, an arm puncher and Norris. Or even drop him as we saw with Howard and Norris.

napoles would be too relentless with pressure and leonard can only fight in spurts anyways, as we saw in Hearns 1. Napoles puts an end to the myth of the great leonard chin with a late round tko. Cuts not a factor.

redrooster

11-13-2007, 06:42 PM

Manassa

11-13-2007, 06:45 PM

Leonard took shots off Hagler, and showed a good chin.

Hagler landed nothing of note on Leonard compared with the many wrench-like fists Monzon landed on Napoles. Granted, Leonard lasted the distance, but Napoles' chin held up brilliantly against Monzon - that sixth round was of Robinson-LaMotta VI proportions, he was really battered. Didn't really stagger either, just got forced back and was retired by his corner in between rounds.

Napoles - better chin than Leonard, arguably lesser survival skills.

Anyway, in all seriousness, Leonard wins this fight for reasons already stated.

Robbi

11-13-2007, 06:54 PM

Anyway, in all seriousness, Leonard wins this fight for reasons already stated.

Good pick. I probably need to see a bit more of Napoles at welterweight before making a solid prediction.

The KO3 Leonard was a "tit for tat" when you brung up Leonard getting knocked down by Hearns twice, 7 years past his last fight at welterweight (1982) and in his early 30's.

If you look back over the last page or so, my argument has been to do with punch resistance rather than an outright prediction.

You choose Leonard, after all that.

Manassa

11-13-2007, 07:00 PM

Good pick. I probably need to see a bit more of Napoles at welterweight before making a solid prediction.

The KO3 Leonard was a "tit for tat" when you brung up Leonard getting knocked down by Hearns twice, 7 years past his last fight at welterweight (1982) and in his early 30's.

If you look back over the last page or so, my argument has been to do with punch resistance rather than an outright prediction.

You choose Leonard, after all that.

Do Scotsmen find it offensive when Englishmen wear kilts?

Robbi

11-13-2007, 07:15 PM

Do Scotsmen find it offensive when Englishmen wear kilts?

:yikes

Manassa

11-13-2007, 07:23 PM

:yikes

Serious question :think

Robbi

11-13-2007, 07:33 PM

Serious question :think

Not as far as I know. Are you thinking about coming to Scotland with a kilt on?

:think

Manassa

11-13-2007, 07:37 PM

Not as far as I know. Are you thinking about coming to Scotland with a kilt on?

:think

Not a kilt in the usual sense.

Holmes' Jab

11-14-2007, 04:38 AM

I'd make Ray marginaly favourite here. He has the edge in handspeed, is the slightly better pure technician, has power in both hands and a solid chin to go with it. The complete package at WW. In saying that you'd be very silly to rule out Napoles, he has the power and skill to keep Ray very honest. This one would be an intriguing matchup that's for sure.

Verdict: Leonard, by close UD.

Bill Butcher

11-14-2007, 07:06 AM

Ive only seen napoles in flashes where as Ive seen leonard a lot & on what Ive seen, srl wins.

Leonard was very complete & probably 2nd only to srr at 147, I think its just the reach & 1 punch power that srr has over srl aswell as being a better inside fighter but leonard v napoles mmmm Id make srl the fav.

My dinner with Conteh

11-14-2007, 07:16 AM

I don't think Leonard is as good as Napoles technically actually, he's more of an intuitive speedster, Napoles is the more textbook fighter. This would likely go in his favour if the two were to meet at their best, but I see Leonard wobbled a couple of times, perhaps a brief visit to the canvas.

Nick Balsamo

11-14-2007, 08:59 AM

Yeah, :).

So how do you see this one going?

I see a cautious fight from Leonard who would be aware of Napoles good pop and counterpunching abilities. Leonard would backpedal a lot, throw some flurries and earn a close unanimous decision in a tactical one.

If that fight gets heated, I give the edge to Leonard too due to his superior handspeed and resistance.

Napoles is great but Leonard wouldn't get caught fighting a fight he's not comfortable with.