Never underestimate the bum of the month

[janitor]

It seems to me that there have been a nuber of cases throughout history where a champion beleived himself to be taking on an easy oponent but had somehow found the last person in the world he should have fought.

Jim Jeffries was Bob Fitzsimmons bum of the month.

Muhamad Ali was Sonny Listons bum of the month.

George Foreman was Joe Fraziers bum of the month.

Somtimes the next ATG can almost apear from nowhere.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Fair enough, but although they were underdogs, they were generally considered to be champs of the future.

[janitor]

Fair enough, but although they were underdogs, they were generally considered to be champs of the future.

But not a particular threat to the champion at the time.

[My dinner with Conteh]

But not a particular threat to the champion at the time.


No, but more of a threat than Tony Galento etc.

[DamonD]

It seems to me that there have been a nuber of cases throughout history where a champion beleived himself to be taking on an easy oponent but had somehow found the last person in the world he should have fought.

Jim Jeffries was Bob Fitzsimmons bum of the month.

Muhamad Ali was Sonny Listons bum of the month.

George Foreman was Joe Fraziers bum of the month.

Somtimes the next ATG can almost apear from nowhere.
Both Ali and Foreman were unbeaten Olympic gold medallists...hardly 'bum of the month'.

[McGrain]

Both Ali and Foreman were unbeaten Olympic gold medallists...hardly 'bum of the month'.

They certainly had earned their shots, put it that way. Though I guess that most of the guys at the time wouldn't have guessed at them beng true top 20 ATG's for their weight classs.

Though Liston didn't think so. He saw saw Ali as a guy who should be fighting an eliminator rather than stepping straight in with him - he wanted Ali to fight Williams first. Either way, as far as this one is concerned, Liston expected to blow Muhammad out of the water.

Though I personally wonder about that fight.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Though I personally wonder about that fight.


What do you wonder?

[mcvey]

It seems to me that there have been a nuber of cases throughout history where a champion beleived himself to be taking on an easy oponent but had somehow found the last person in the world he should have fought.

Jim Jeffries was Bob Fitzsimmons bum of the month.

Muhamad Ali was Sonny Listons bum of the month.

George Foreman was Joe Fraziers bum of the month.

Somtimes the next ATG can almost apear from nowhere.
They were all rated fighters ,Ali and Foreman in the top two,hardly unknown,bums of the month ,an expression that I dont like,are more akin to some of Louis,s competition,guys like Jack Roper,who was 36 ,and had been kod by Braddock with one punch,beaten twice by an old George Godfrey,and went into the Louis fight with a record of 26W 22L 5 D,Tony Musto who stood only 5 7 1/2,had lost all 4 of his 1940 fights and won only4 out of his 9 in 41 the year he fought Louis ,he was unrated and unworthy.Jean Peirre Coopman must be up therealong with Ron Stander and Terry Daniels two of Fraziers challengers.How about Pattersons defence against Rademacher,Floyds excuse-" Im asked to fight an amateur for $200,000".disgraceful!

[McGrain]

What do you wonder?

If Liston didn't do his miserable best to throw that fight.

[ChrisPontius]

If Liston didn't do his miserable best to throw that fight.

Whatever makes you able to accept the outcome...

[McGrain]

Whatever makes you able to accept the outcome...


How do you mean?

[My dinner with Conteh]

If Liston didn't do his miserable best to throw that fight.


So, as a guess, what would you say the 'deal' was? Just give a quick rundown of the scenario that he/they planned. Just your guess, that's all.

[McGrain]

So, as a guess, what would you say the 'deal' was? Just give a quick rundown of the scenario that he/they planned. Just your guess, that's all.

Something like this: Liston gets told in the dressing room that he's throwing the fight in round 6. No deal would need to exsist, Liston was as purely owned by the mob as any fighter ever was.

This explains why Liston was seen crying on his way to the ring, the news was fresh. I guess the news would need to be - can't have him knowing a thing like that in the run up.

Liston doesn't get a proper opportunity to dump in the 6th (as he sees it) so he sits on his stool.

Something like that.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Something like this: Liston gets told in the dressing room that he's throwing the fight in round 6. No deal would need to exsist, Liston was as purely owned by the mob as any fighter ever was.

This explains why Liston was seen crying on his way to the ring, the news was fresh. I guess the news would need to be - can't have him knowing a thing like that in the run up.

Liston doesn't get a proper opportunity to dump in the 6th (as he sees it) so he sits on his stool.

Something like that.



Well, he left it to chance, because many initially regarded the fight as TKO 7, as he didn't come out for the 7th. So, would he really take that risk?

[McGrain]

Well, he left it to chance, because many initially regarded the fight as TKO 7, as he didn't come out for the 7th. So, would he really take that risk?

Not a risk for Sonny. The guy is in dreamland - if the outlined scenario is correct - the guy doesn't know how to dump. All he's wanted to do is KO this guy and then this.

Ali starts sitting down on his punches in 6, really scoring "at will" - you read that time and time again. But Ali is no power puncher - it's possible, I suggest, that Liston is waiting for the guy to hit him hard enough to drop him - just taking the shots - but nothing comes along.

Ding ding, end of round. Oh shit.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Not a risk for Sonny. The guy is in dreamland - if the outlined scenario is correct - the guy doesn't know how to dump. All he's wanted to do is KO this guy and then this.

Ali starts sitting down on his punches in 6, really scoring "at will" - you read that time and time again. But Ali is no power puncher - it's possible, I suggest, that Liston is waiting for the guy to hit him hard enough to drop him - just taking the shots - but nothing comes along.

Ding ding, end of round. Oh shit.



It's possible I suppose. But the mob could have also got a good price on the Patterson rematch. Why not take that?

[McGrain]

It's possible I suppose. But the mob could have also got a good price on the Patterson rematch. Why not take that?

Very good question.

I would answer that the stink that the Ali win created at the time - which was not insignificant - would be nothing compared to the stink a Patterson win would have created. Minimalise the heat, max out the prophit.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Very good question.

I would answer that the stink that the Ali win created at the time - which was not insignificant - would be nothing compared to the stink a Patterson win would have created. Minimalise the heat, max out the prophit.


Another good point. However, his team could've probably worked in a voluntary defence against a Top tenner, like, say, Brian London, and have gotten greater odds around 12-1 perhaps- then taken a dive.

[janitor]

They certainly had earned their shots, put it that way.

I don't think that Foreman earned his shot at Frazier and I think that Ali was borderline to fight Liston.

I would say that all the guys I have listed met trouble half way.

[McGrain]

Another good point. However, his team could've probably worked in a voluntary defence against a Top tenner, like, say, Brian London, and have gotten greater odds around 12-1 perhaps- then taken a dive.

This is a good point, but London wouldn't have been the choice - these guys don't want to see the title leave the country.

But in allowing the title to pass to Ali, the mob sees the title go to a fighter they will NEVER have a peice of.

I'd speculate that the mob saw Ali holidng the title as a very temporary situation. Many did.

As to why not a ringer, why not the #1 challenger? Bound to generate a lot more action, and Ali was highly, highly visible. "Good for business". But I agree, the choice doesn't add up all the way.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I don't think that Foreman earned his shot at Frazier and I think that Ali was borderline to fight Liston.


George probably didn't but most of the top 10 at the time had either been champ or had a title shot themselves. Foreman had also graced the cover of Ring with the headline: Is this the next champion of the world? Ali was the #1 by the time of the Liston fight also and a box-office hit. Who do you suggest should have received a title shot instead in Feb 1964 & Jan 1973?

[My dinner with Conteh]

This is a good point, but London wouldn't have been the choice - these guys don't want to see the title leave the country.

But in allowing the title to pass to Ali, the mob sees the title go to a fighter they will NEVER have a peice of.

I'd speculate that the mob saw Ali holidng the title as a very temporary situation. Many did.

As to why not a ringer, why not the #1 challenger? Bound to generate a lot more action, and Ali was highly, highly visible. "Good for business". But I agree, the choice doesn't add up all the way.



But why the 'dive' in the rematch then?

[janitor]

[quote=My dinner with Conteh]Who do you suggest should have received a title shot instead in Feb 1964

Probably Ali but his claim would have been stronger if he fought an eliminator for the position. Perhaps a re match with Doug Jones.


& Jan 1973?


Ali did enough in the FOTC to earn a rematch and he was ranked No1. Foreman should not have been ranked No2 at this stage.

[McGrain]

But why the 'dive' in the rematch then?

The lunatic dive in the rematch is more easily explained in the light of the first fight being fixed, in my opinion. Having failed to take a proper dive in the sixth in the first fight Liston is told - in no uncertain terms - to hit the deck. So he does, makes a show of trying to get up, oh!, he'd down again. I can only imagine his heart was in his mouth - if i'm right about the first fight - when the fight was allowed to continue for those few seconds.

Quitting on his stool was no longer an option.

As to why the mob passed up a chance on - possibly - recelaiming the title, there was heat being generated on the mob and their boxing connections. Secondly, the odds were still through the roof. Finally, they may have been smart enough to know, that by that time, Ali may have been a reality favourite to beat Liston, or at the very least that Liston couldn't be expected to control the result without some help, as had previously been the case.

[Mendoza]

I beleive Jeffries was a slight betting favorite over Fitzsimons in the first fight.

[Bummy Davis]

You are correct, Foreman vs Frazier and Golota vs Bowe and Golota vs Byrd,Lyackovitch vs Brewster and Brewster/Meehan

[ChrisPontius]

How do you mean?

I meant that i don't believe for a moment that the first fight was fixed.

Liston tried his best to get Clay out of there - watch some HARD left hooks fail to take Clay's head off by just a few inches. Liston was helpless because he was too slow, undertrained and had no clue whatsoever on how to cut the ring off against a faster fighter. After the sixth he had thrown all his best shots, even when Clay was blind and they were to no effect. His lack of training started to kick in and he quit.

The second fight, yeah, that was probably a phony.

Why would they wanna throw the heavyweight championship anyway?
And if the fight was fixed in the 6th, then they were tacking one hell of a risk.
In hindsight we know that Ali was as close to knockout proof as one gets, but back then, Cooper nearly knocked him out, Banks dropped him, Jones had a close one with him, everyone expected Ali to be gone after a few rounds. Liston went at him with full force and didn't held back at all.

Put it this way - one year ago, would you have let Audley Harrison go 6 rounds with Samuel Peter or Wladimir Klitschko going all out untill they quit on their stool in the 7th? Harrison and Ali both are olympic champions, both naturally gifted and both seemed to have chin problems at that point. Of course in hindsight there's a world of difference between them, but that's not the point.
The point is that they made their decisions based on what was the consencus back then - which was that Clay was cannon fodder. 8 to 1 odds.

[janitor]

I beleive Jeffries was a slight betting favorite over Fitzsimons in the first fight.

That is not my understanding.

While I have not seen the odds I know that Fitzsimmons was criticised at the time for taking this inexperienced oponent over Joe Choynski.

[McGrain]

I meant that i don't believe for a moment that the first fight was fixed.

Well let me start by saying that i'm not insisting upon it. I'm just open minded to the possibility. I feel there is enough cirumstantial for it to be worth that much.

Liston tried his best to get Clay out of there - watch some HARD left hooks fail to take Clay's head off by just a few inches.

As far as Liston's punching goes, it is troublesome. Although of course he couldn't elect to take a dive in round 6 without having thrown between the opening bell and throwing in the towel.

They do all just miss of course. If the fight was thrown, Liston pulled a little bit. If Ali won clean, he ducked out of them. Liston missing Ali doesn't prove he was trying to knock him out.

Liston made his money knocking out his opponents jab then firing. Or slipping the jab and then firing. Or...he was adept at cirumnavigating his opponents jab. In parts of this fight, Ali just hovered his jab in Listons face, and he doesn't even bother to bat it out of the way. I found that curious even when that was the only Liston fight i'd seen, before I knew that Liston had been seen crying on the way to the ring, before I knew that Lison had spent years tracking opponents down in the ring, before I knew that knocking a jab out of the way was a move he knew and knew well, before I knew he was owned by the mob.

In the "Ali blinded" round, he can't catch Ali. He's a proffesional fighter in with a partially blind fighter. He's near the top of most ATG head to head lists. I find it a bit curious, I also find his propensity for bodywork in that round curios.




Liston was helpless because he was too slow, undertrained and had no clue whatsoever on how to cut the ring off against a faster fighter.

Given he was no cut off expert, though with his massive reach and underated hand speed he didn't have to be against most opponents (Ali is an extraordinary opponent of course). Even undertrained, Liston should never be described as "helpless" in the ring, in my opinion.

After the sixth he had thrown all his best shots, even when Clay was blind and they were to no effect. His lack of training started to kick in and he quit.

A perfectly reasonable point of view. The point of view that his sudden collapse - and it was sudden, i understand the fight was very close on the judges scorecards going in - was a neccesity rather than symptom is also reasonable, is it not?

The second fight, yeah, that was probably a phony.

I've always found people who accept so easily the 2nd fight being a fix but refuse to acknowledge the first one may have been fixed curious. The same principles were involved.

Why would they wanna throw the heavyweight championship anyway?

Huge amounts of money. The huge, huge amount only ever bet in a title match on a heavy champ who is a heavy favourite - guaranteed to be left in the coffers. And the massive amount that the mob would collect from straight up bookies having gambled on Ali in 6. There were financial irregularities involving a load of out of town money going on Ali in the last few days ("Night Train") - this is not uncommon on a big outsider in a title fight but we are talking about A LOT of money here.

And Liston was an ageing fighter - if they were to cash in on their prize possesion it had to be soon. And they would DEFINITELY want to cash in on him. I think it's worth you reading that sentance again. This is not disputable in my opinion.

These were long odds and Ali was a young fighter. Why take the chance?

And if the fight was fixed in the 6th, then they were tacking one hell of a risk.

How so? Why more than the 11th or the 2nd?


In hindsight we know that Ali was as close to knockout proof as one gets, but back then, Cooper nearly knocked him out, Banks dropped him, Jones had a close one with him, everyone expected Ali to be gone after a few rounds.


And it's possible that Ali would have won a straight up fight - I would certainly bet on peak Ali to beat peak Liston.

Liston went at him with full force and didn't held back at all.

I dispute this.

Clay was cannon fodder. 8 to 1 odds.

Exaclty - the crucial point. Long odds Chris, pretty tempting. Liston was entirely in the power of the mob. Can you really dismiss the possibility so easily given what came after?

[McGrain]

Without a motive to quit or lay down, I don't see any reason to believe that either of the contests were fixed.

Finding a motive is by far the easiest part.

Deciding what you are going to beleive is the difficult part.

[C. M. Clay II]

I'm positive that the first Liston-Clay fight wasn't fixed. Liston blinded Clay in the fourth round, so obviously he was trying everything he could to win the fight (even if it was dirty). Doesn't seem like a man trying to lose to me.:good

[My dinner with Conteh]

How so? Why more than the 11th or the 2nd?



I think Chris may have been alluding to what I suggested with the 6th almost being the 7th. But you do make a decent argument McGrain (even though it's much of it is probably based on what you've read in Toches' book).

[My dinner with Conteh]

That is not my understanding.

While I have not seen the odds I know that Fitzsimmons was criticised at the time for taking this inexperienced oponent over Joe Choynski.


Fitz was 2-1.

[McGrain]

I think Chris may have been alluding to what I suggested with the 6th almost being the 7th. But you do make a decent argument McGrain (even though it's much of it is probably based on what you've read in Toches' book).

There's also a small dose in Ghosts Of Manilla, which I'll bet you've read.

Also, contempary accounts are often suspicious. Though there's no meat on the bones.

I will say this - there's surprisngly little known about Liston's state of mind between the two fights. He seems to have dropped of the face of the earth media wise. Although there are bits and bobs in exsistance it tends to be testimony from his inner circle. If you've got anything Conteh, or anyone else, let me have a reference or a summary, i'd be grateful.

[McGrain]

I'm positive that the first Liston-Clay fight wasn't fixed. Liston blinded Clay in the fourth round, so obviously he was trying everything he could to win the fight (even if it was dirty). Doesn't seem like a man trying to lose to me.:good

Three possibilities: an accident.

Intentional, but without Liston's knowledge. It's unlikely that the cornerman would say "LET'S PUT SOME SHIT IN HIS EYES - HERE, IT'S ON YOUR GLOVES NOW!"

Or you are quite right and Liston knew the score.

[CASH_718]

It seems to me that there have been a nuber of cases throughout history where a champion beleived himself to be taking on an easy oponent but had somehow found the last person in the world he should have fought.

Jim Jeffries was Bob Fitzsimmons bum of the month.

Muhamad Ali was Sonny Listons bum of the month.

George Foreman was Joe Fraziers bum of the month.

Somtimes the next ATG can almost apear from nowhere.

Foreman and Ali were Olympic gold medalist and wasn't Jeffries a great bareknuckle boxer or something like that???

I doubt any of them were considered bums.

[ChrisPontius]

Well let me start by saying that i'm not insisting upon it. I'm just open minded to the possibility. I feel there is enough cirumstantial for it to be worth that much.

Alright.


As far as Liston's punching goes, it is troublesome. Although of course he couldn't elect to take a dive in round 6 without having thrown between the opening bell and throwing in the towel.


They do all just miss of course. If the fight was thrown, Liston pulled a little bit. If Ali won clean, he ducked out of them. Liston missing Ali doesn't prove he was trying to knock him out.


Well it didn't look to me like Liston pulled a little bit. To me it looked like Liston doing his absolute best to get Ali out of there and failing to hit him because Ali had near superhuman speed.


Liston made his money knocking out his opponents jab then firing. Or slipping the jab and then firing. Or...he was adept at cirumnavigating his opponents jab. In parts of this fight, Ali just hovered his jab in Listons face, and he doesn't even bother to bat it out of the way. I found that curious even when that was the only Liston fight i'd seen, before I knew that Liston had been seen crying on the way to the ring, before I knew that Lison had spent years tracking opponents down in the ring, before I knew that knocking a jab out of the way was a move he knew and knew well, before I knew he was owned by the mob.

That's because Ali, as i pointed out before, was seen as an easy match, just a big mouth and he had made Liston quite mad. So Liston wanted to end the night early and get him out of there with bigshots from the getgo.


In the "Ali blinded" round, he can't catch Ali. He's a proffesional fighter in with a partially blind fighter. He's near the top of most ATG head to head lists. I find it a bit curious, I also find his propensity for bodywork in that round curios.

He's not near the top of my ATG head to head list. Ali may have lost his sight partially, but he didn't lose his legs or his defence. Since Liston couldn't catch the head, he decided to take the body out.



Given he was no cut off expert, though with his massive reach and underated hand speed he didn't have to be against most opponents (Ali is an extraordinary opponent of course). Even undertrained, Liston should never be described as "helpless" in the ring, in my opinion.


Well his massive reach was only a few inches larger than Clays, and add to that that reach is wingspan, meaning that two inches more in wingspan means only one inch more in useable reach, AND that Clay's taller, i'd say there's not very much between them in reach.
Speed is the much more important factor; here is the difference between a big reach with average speed and a somewhat smaller reach with more speed:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

And maybe you don't like the term, but Liston did look very helpless in there to me. He simply couldn't catch Clay and even when Clay was blinded (whether intentional or not) he couldn't really do much damage.



A perfectly reasonable point of view. The point of view that his sudden collapse - and it was sudden, i understand the fight was very close on the judges scorecards going in - was a neccesity rather than symptom is also reasonable, is it not?


Well Duran's quit was also sudden and unexpected at the time. Maybe the fight was close on the judges scorecards, but part of that was because Ali was blinded in one round, and did little in some other rounds when he was contend to just tire Liston out and stay away from him. It's no secret that Ali didn't mind losing a round or two for the sake of his strategy over 15 rounds.. and staying away from Liston early, making him tired him is certainly a recommendable thing. It is likely that Clay expected the fight to go beyond the 10th and fight accordingly.



I've always found people who accept so easily the 2nd fight being a fix but refuse to acknowledge the first one may have been fixed curious. The same principles were involved.


Disagree. The second fight, Liston went down from a punch that couldn't have knocked Herbie Hide out. He then put on one of the worst acting performances ever by pretending to be seriously hurt. Even Ali knew that it wasn't enough to knock him out, which you can clearly see from his immediate reaction. He wanted Liston to get up because there's not much credit to receive from a fixed fight. When there was no getting around it anymore he came up with that bullshit anchor punch story to save the day.

Faking a knockout from a light punch after having done next to nothing and quitting on your stool after 6 rounds of throwing hard punches without being able to catch him even when he's blind are two different things.


Huge amounts of money. The huge, huge amount only ever bet in a title match on a heavy champ who is a heavy favourite - guaranteed to be left in the coffers. And the massive amount that the mob would collect from straight up bookies having gambled on Ali in 6. There were financial irregularities involving a load of out of town money going on Ali in the last few days ("Night Train") - this is not uncommon on a big outsider in a title fight but we are talking about A LOT of money here.

And Liston was an ageing fighter - if they were to cash in on their prize possesion it had to be soon. And they would DEFINITELY want to cash in on him. I think it's worth you reading that sentance again. This is not disputable in my opinion.

These were long odds and Ali was a young fighter. Why take the chance?


Liston was only an aging fighter in hindsight.

Fact of the matter is that he was destroying everyone he shared the ring with and came off his career peak performance. He had pretty much cleaned out the division and no one would be a threat to him. Of course Clay outclassed him but no one expected that and there was absolutely nothing on his record to indicate that he could, either.

Liston looked indestructable and i think most if not everyone at that point would've made the choice of milking the money cow for a few more years instead of already giving it up during his first title defence.

Again i want to emphasize how easy it is for us to talk about this now that we know history. They didn't. Liston didn't look old. He was on top of the world and no one seemed to be able to beat him. On my film of the buildup to Clay-Liston I, the commentator says "Liston looked his usual awesome self".

You can look back at stockmarket traders and say they made a mistake, but in this case there was absolutely nothing to suggest the market would crash.


And like MDWC says, why take the huge risk of losing all the money by quitting between rounds?



How so? Why more than the 11th or the 2nd?

Because Liston was wailing away with full power shots at someone who was nearly knocked out by Henry Cooper, troubled by Jones and dropped by Banks.
Would you sit down relaxed when the hardest hitting heavyweight in the world chops away for six full rounds at a fragile heavyweight?


I dispute this.


Watch the fight. See the hard punches that Liston throws. I don't see there's much to dispute there. Clay is too damn fast, it's not like Liston take a step back and purposely throws a shot while being out of range.

Just one random example, watch the first round, about 40 seconds in it.
Liston throws a HUGE left hook and misses Clay only by a hair. If that one landed on his chin, most heavyweights would go to sleep, especially one who was considered as weak as Clay going into this fight.
And there are several more punches just like that, do you think they would take that chance when there's so much money at stake?



Exaclty - the crucial point. Long odds Chris, pretty tempting. Liston was entirely in the power of the mob. Can you really dismiss the possibility so easily given what came after?

With Liston you can't dismiss any theory. But given the circumstances i strongly doubt the first fight was fixed.

By the way, there were investigations of money bet on Clay but no evidence was found. Then again they probably used bookies the FBI didn't know about.

[groove]

No fight was fixed. The Mob wouldn't give the title to the Black Muslims for one. Even the great Joe Louis called the first round the best he had seen in many years. Ali fought at his best in this fight and to say it is fixed is an insult to how well he fought in that first fight. Liston wasn't use to chasing fighters around the ring and hitting thin air. The 2nd fight must be the worse fix of all time. If you're gonna take a dive you do it so people believe it's real. No one believed that was a real ko shot, even Ali, so you don't take a dive that early in the fight from only the 2nd punch he had took. Liston said he wasn't going to get up until Ali had gone to the corner. That never happened so Liston stayed down then finally got up and Nat got involved when he shouldn't have. Walcott fucked up. He should've let the fight continue as Ali and Liston were doing when he came back and stopped it. Complete farse DEFINITELY but not a fix.

[McGrain]

Well it didn't look to me like Liston pulled a little bit. To me it looked like Liston doing his absolute best to get Ali out of there and failing to hit him because Ali had near superhuman speed.

Again - a fair position. But again, I don't see Liston missing Ali as proof that Liston was trying to hit Ali as hard as he could.


That's because Ali, as i pointed out before, was seen as an easy match, just a big mouth and he had made Liston quite mad. So Liston wanted to end the night early and get him out of there with bigshots from the getgo.

I don't agree. Why would the fact that the fight is easy mean that Liston would allow Ali to hover his jab in his face? Why not do what he normally does with an incoming jab? Because it's an easy fight? That doesn't add up.


He's not near the top of my ATG head to head list. Ali may have lost his sight partially, but he didn't lose his legs or his defence. Since Liston couldn't catch the head, he decided to take the body out.

I've been interested in this area for many years, and while I don't run a dumptruck over the accepted reality there are some areas where it runs so threadbare as to be naked. Your position is that Liston, after headhunting and missing by a close margin for the opening rounds decides, when he has his opponent at the mercy of his head shots, to a greater extent than in all of those rounds, decides to go for the body? He's after Ali's head - Ali goes blind - and he then decides to shift to the body? Because he's been missing?

One of two things here: Liston's choice is pitiful or this argument makes no sense. No other explanation will do.



And maybe you don't like the term, but Liston did look very helpless in there to me. He simply couldn't catch Clay and even when Clay was blinded (whether intentional or not) he couldn't really do much damage.

That is your position - mine is that it is possible that there might not be the enormous distance between these fighters in terms of talent as there appeared to be on fight night.



Well Duran's quit was also sudden and unexpected at the time.

Do you really think the two cases have that much in common? If so, how does one help to explain the other? Some people think Duran shit himself, some don't - I think Sonny may have been fixed - most don't. I think that's the most that can be said about this.


Maybe the fight was close on the judges scorecards, but part of that was because Ali was blinded in one round, and did little in some other rounds when he was contend to just tire Liston out and stay away from him.

All of this may be true - or it may be true that the round Ali couldn't see for would have been close, like the others. The tactic you describe for Ali is perfectly reasonable. Of course, many other have tried it against Sonny & Sonny would have expected it.




The second fight, Liston went down from a punch that couldn't have knocked Herbie Hide out. He then put on one of the worst acting performances ever by pretending to be seriously hurt. Even Ali knew that it wasn't enough to knock him out, which you can clearly see from his immediate reaction. He wanted Liston to get up because there's not much credit to receive from a fixed fight. When there was no getting around it anymore he came up with that bullshit anchor punch story to save the day.

Well yeah, that's all true. Of course it is obvious there was something wrong with the second fight. My point was, I find people who can be so sure the 1st wasn't fixed, when they are sure the second was, curious. I would like to know where that surity comes from. Liston has future history in this department, with exactly the same managment team, exactly the same opponent, at around the same age, with similair odds, and exactly the same problems with his life. IF the first fight was thrown it wasn't thrown so cleanly and obviously - that doesn't mean it wasn't so.

Faking a knockout from a light punch after having done next to nothing and quitting on your stool after 6 rounds of throwing hard punches without being able to catch him even when he's blind are two different things.

Granted - but done by the same men in the same circumstances. Consider this - how would Liston have looked had he had to throw the fight in round 6? How different would the fight have looked? What would Liston have done differently if he HAD been told ten minutes before he went out to ditch in the 6th? And not as regards the 6th round - but what went before.



Liston was only an aging fighter in hindsight.

How so? Are you sure this would be the case for those around him? If so, how?

Then there is the fact of his physical age, which he lied about, but was still nearing the upper limit for a prize fighter at that time.

Fact of the matter is that he was destroying everyone he shared the ring with and came off his career peak performance. He had pretty much cleaned out the division and no one would be a threat to him.

This makes a fix MORE likely, not less. Such a situation would have to be in place to achieve the necessary odds and make the venture prophitable.



Liston didn't look old. He was on top of the world and no one seemed to be able to beat him. On my film of the buildup to Clay-Liston I, the commentator says "Liston looked his usual awesome self".

Not to you - not to me - and not to that commentator. But to the guys who worked with him in the gym? To the mafia runners? To those inside? His poor training camp may have been enough to bring this about when the massive money to be made became apparent.

There is NO QUESTION AT ALL in my mind that something like this was in the pipe for the Liston. They either got the timing wrong - and didn't have Liston take a dive until the rematch and lost a lot of money - or right and asked Liston to take a dive v Ali in round 6 of the first fight, and made a lot of money.


And like MDWC says, why take the huge risk of losing all the money by quitting between rounds?

I thought i'd already covered this with him - to paraphrase. Liston has an iron jaw. Ali is only a good puncher. Liston waits for a shot to come that is hard enough to fall to and it doesn't come. Ding-ding. Oh shit. This actually helps to explain the ridiculous punch Liston selected to fall to in the fight you do beleive is fixed.



Because Liston was wailing away with full power shots at someone who was nearly knocked out by Henry Cooper, troubled by Jones and dropped by Banks.
Would you sit down relaxed when the hardest hitting heavyweight in the world chops away for six full rounds at a fragile heavyweight?

Again, I don't consider the fact that Liston missed Ali proof that he was trying to knock it out - or that he wasn't. I will say this. That performance was the worst I have ever seen Liston give. Do you consider it so? If so, how can you be so certain that Liston was giving his best? It is perfectly reasonable to say Ali made him look that bad - perfectly - but how can you be so certain?



Watch the fight. See the hard punches that Liston throws. I don't see there's much to dispute there.

I've watched that fight until it's coming out of my ears. I do feel there is a dispute to be had.


Just one random example, watch the first round, about 40 seconds in it. Liston throws a HUGE left hook and misses Clay only by a hair. If that one landed on his chin, most heavyweights would go to sleep, especially one who was considered as weak as Clay going into this fight.

Again, I don't feel missed punches form proof. Again, what would the fight have looked like if Liston was trying to throw it in 6? Would he have thrown zero punches? Or some punches which all missed? The later, obviously.


With Liston you can't dismiss any theory. But given the circumstances i strongly doubt the first fight was fixed.

Thanks for saying that, and don't think I am trying to run down the opinion you hold. I would just suggest that there is enough that you don't hold onto it quite so tightly.

By the way, there were investigations of money bet on Clay but no evidence was found. Then again they probably used bookies the FBI didn't know about.

Yes. The FBI has caught up to the mafia in these past decades - their results as far as money laundering (the most likely cause for a fix if there was one - absolutley horrible if you think about it) and crooked betting was not special in the sixties.

[unitas]

It seems to me that there have been a nuber of cases throughout history where a champion beleived himself to be taking on an easy oponent but had somehow found the last person in the world he should have fought.

Jim Jeffries was Bob Fitzsimmons bum of the month.

Muhamad Ali was Sonny Listons bum of the month.

George Foreman was Joe Fraziers bum of the month.

Somtimes the next ATG can almost apear from nowhere.

:patsch.........NO!

foreman was unbeaten and a three to one underdog to frazier. that is not a bum of month type of fighter!!
a guy like johnny williams or jack roper were like 30-1 or even 40-1 underdogs when challenging louis. those belonged in the bum of the month club.
not foreman.

[My dinner with Conteh]

McGrain, what kind of info are you looking for? For a starter Mac, you may be interested to know that Ali was interviewed by Sports Illustrated just before the rematch in which he predicted he would KO Liston with his first right hand punch. He said he'd dance for the first minute than 'bam', land that right. I've often wondered that Liston, upon reading this, may have thought "I'll lie down after that, then they'll never believe it".

[McGrain]

McGrain, what kind of info are you looking for? For a starter Mac, you may be interested to know that Ali was interviewed by Sports Illustrated just before the rematch in which he predicted he would KO Liston with his first right hand punch. He said he'd dance for the first minute than 'bam', land that right. I've often wondered that Liston, upon reading this, may have thought "I'll lie down after that, then they'll never believe it".


:lol:

That's a beaut.

I'll tell you what it is - it's like, everything i've read about Liston in that time is from a "source in the camp". Do you see what I mean? It's like no-one pinned him down properly for an interview, or even a proper press confrence. It's a little uncanny considering all that had gone on.

I suspect there may not be anything. Like he was gone even before that second fight.

That Beatles story, you can imagine why Liston wouldn't be into it. Fannying about with the Beatles - old people and kids blah blah but not hippy types, that wouldn't be his speed I don't think.

[My dinner with Conteh]

:lol:

That's a beaut.

I'll tell you what it is - it's like, everything i've read about Liston in that time is from a "source in the camp". Do you see what I mean? It's like no-one pinned him down properly for an interview, or even a proper press confrence. It's a little uncanny considering all that had gone on.

I suspect there may not be anything. Like he was gone even before that second fight.

That Beatles story, you can imagine why Liston wouldn't be into it. Fannying about with the Beatles - old people and kids blah blah but not hippy types, that wouldn't be his speed I don't think.




Yeah, I agree. The Beatles thing was the local paper (Miami Herald i think) wanting the meet-up with Clay but they weren't so keen at first, probably because they thought Liston would mash him. But the papers wanted a 'Fifth Beatle' and Clay fight the bill, really. Their respect for Liston continued of course when he was one of the 'people we like' to feature on the Sgt.Pepper cover. No sign of Clay.

[ChrisPontius]

Again - a fair position. But again, I don't see Liston missing Ali as proof that Liston was trying to hit Ali as hard as he could.

If you see the way that he was missing, particular that left hook i was talking about, then i can't help but think that he went all out. That left hook would've flatten most heavyweights if it landed, which it nearly did. Why would Liston take that risk against an at that time seen as fragile opponent?



I don't agree. Why would the fact that the fight is easy mean that Liston would allow Ali to hover his jab in his face? Why not do what he normally does with an incoming jab? Because it's an easy fight? That doesn't add up.
Liston didn't allow Ali to hover the jab in his face, Ali simply made that happen. Ali looked like to have a weak chin at that point, so why bother turning it into a jabbing contest when you are the baddest man on the planet and can easily knock him out?



I've been interested in this area for many years, and while I don't run a dumptruck over the accepted reality there are some areas where it runs so threadbare as to be naked. Your position is that Liston, after headhunting and missing by a close margin for the opening rounds decides, when he has his opponent at the mercy of his head shots, to a greater extent than in all of those rounds, decides to go for the body? He's after Ali's head - Ali goes blind - and he then decides to shift to the body? Because he's been missing?


One of two things here: Liston's choice is pitiful or this argument makes no sense. No other explanation will do.


Watch the fight again, he did go after Ali's head mostly and landed a couple of shots. He missed most of them though, and when in close range, he was hitting Clay's body because that was the only available target. Those were also almost the only punches which came through, which might have made it looked like he only went to the body while he in fact didn't.

And if he was supposed to throw the fight one round later, why would he not simply rest or do nothing inside instead of quickly following Clay around and using every upportunity to hit him, like in a clinch?






That is your position - mine is that it is possible that there might not be the enormous distance between these fighters in terms of talent as there appeared to be on fight night.
If that is so then Liston should get an Oscar because he did an absolutely brilliant job of looking just as slow as he always was against a much faster opponent. His oscar should be taken away after the second fight, though.





Do you really think the two cases have that much in common? If so, how does one help to explain the other? Some people think Duran shit himself, some don't - I think Sonny may have been fixed - most don't. I think that's the most that can be said about this.
The thing that both of these have in common is that the fighters quit.
In both cases, the quitting fighter had that bully-attitude, was undertrained and couldn't catch the much faster, in shape opponent.




Well yeah, that's all true. Of course it is obvious there was something wrong with the second fight. My point was, I find people who can be so sure the 1st wasn't fixed, when they are sure the second was, curious. I would like to know where that surity comes from. Liston has future history in this department, with exactly the same managment team, exactly the same opponent, at around the same age, with similair odds, and exactly the same problems with his life. IF the first fight was thrown it wasn't thrown so cleanly and obviously - that doesn't mean it wasn't so.
Because all signals of an out of shape, frustrated, quitting fighter who tried before he quit are there.



Granted - but done by the same men in the same circumstances. Consider this - how would Liston have looked had he had to throw the fight in round 6? How different would the fight have looked? What would Liston have done differently if he HAD been told ten minutes before he went out to ditch in the 6th? And not as regards the 6th round - but what went before.
By the same men but not the same circumstances. Ali was the champ now. Maybe the nation of terrorism thought that a well prepared, in-shape Liston was too much of a threat?

The answer to your question is very simple, then Ali would've been bragging that he knocked Liston out in the 6th round of their first fight and the public would say that Liston took a dive. Probably in that case there would not have been a rematch at all.




How so? Are you sure this would be the case for those around him? If so, how?

Yes i'm pretty sure of that. No one saw it coming. Liston looked invincible in his recent outings. Even if Liston had lot just a little bit, there was no way he was gonna lose to Clay. Same with Tyson vs Douglas. And make no mistake about it, Clay was every bit as average as Douglas coming into this fight; he looked spectacular and quick at times, but was badly troubled by Jones and Cooper, who were not even near Liston's class.



Then there is the fact of his physical age, which he lied about, but was still nearing the upper limit for a prize fighter at that time.
Who knew he lied about it? Do we even know that now? No one is sure when he was born - he didn't even know himself.



This makes a fix MORE likely, not less. Such a situation would have to be in place to achieve the necessary odds and make the venture prophitable.

You don't need to be a Harvard business graduate to realise that cashing out when you're destroying everyone around in big money fights is a stupid thing to do. At this point everything indicated that Liston would've reigned for years and there was a lot of money to make from that. Not to mention that having the heavyweight champion of the world gives you a lot of power.

Can you think of a single other occasion in boxing history, any weightclass, where this happened? A fix when a fighter was destroying everyone around and just annihilated the champion twice?




Not to you - not to me - and not to that commentator. But to the guys who worked with him in the gym? To the mafia runners? To those inside? His poor training camp may have been enough to bring this about when the massive money to be made became apparent.

Maybe they saw he lost a bit - maybe. But even if he was 70% of his former self, he'd still destroy Clay and everyone thought so.



I thought i'd already covered this with him - to paraphrase. Liston has an iron jaw. Ali is only a good puncher. Liston waits for a shot to come that is hard enough to fall to and it doesn't come. Ding-ding. Oh shit. This actually helps to explain the ridiculous punch Liston selected to fall to in the fight you do beleive is fixed.
Could be, but i don't believe it.




Again, I don't consider the fact that Liston missed Ali proof that he was trying to knock it out - or that he wasn't. I will say this. That performance was the worst I have ever seen Liston give. Do you consider it so? If so, how can you be so certain that Liston was giving his best? It is perfectly reasonable to say Ali made him look that bad - perfectly - but how can you be so certain?

Was it Listons worst perforamnce? I don't know, Liston always looked slow and ponderous to me - he was just made to look a lot worse than normally because his opponent was so much better.

I am so certain because Liston looked every bit as serious and deadly in trying to dispose Clay as he did against other, easier opponents. Like i said, that hard left hook that barely missed Clay is not a chance you can take against a fragile opponent who you are supposed to lay down to 5 rounds later. Liston threw that punch (and many others) with mean intend.



I've watched that fight until it's coming out of my ears. I do feel there is a dispute to be had.

So you think Liston missed that left hook on purpose then ? And all those other hard shots?



Again, I don't feel missed punches form proof. Again, what would the fight have looked like if Liston was trying to throw it in 6? Would he have thrown zero punches? Or some punches which all missed? The later, obviously.
The punch just BARELY missed Ali. Watch it again, if you think that's a purposely missed hook..... come on, anyone can see that that hook had "murder" written all over it.

If he would've thrown the fight in 6, i think he would've thrown light jabs, go backward or slowly forward. But in reality, Liston plodded forward at his maximum speed and threw hard shots.

[McGrain]

I was wondering would I hear from you about this again!

First up let me say once more that i'm not insiting up on any of this.

Also, well laid out argument, nice.


If you see the way that he was missing, particular that left hook i was talking about, then i can't help but think that he went all out. That left hook would've flatten most heavyweights if it landed, which it nearly did. Why would Liston take that risk against an at that time seen as fragile opponent?

Again, I just can't see a fighter missing as proof that he was trying to hit someone. These guys work in 1/8 inches.


Liston didn't allow Ali to hover the jab in his face, Ali simply made that happen.

In round 5 Ali just hangs it there. Ali did make it happen. To unmake it all Liston has to do is pat the top of Ali's glove away. He would also probably get to throw his right of the back of this move. He doesn't bother.


Ali looked like to have a weak chin at that point, so why bother turning it into a jabbing contest when you are the baddest man on the planet and can easily knock him out?

I'm not actually advocating a jabbing contest - although Liston's jab is perhaps his best punch and you raise an interesting point. Liston may have abandoned it for round one or two for the reasons you outline but he was pretty adaptable. Why no counter-jabbing from Liston when he hits trouble?


Watch the fight again, he did go after Ali's head mostly and landed a couple of shots. He missed most of them though, and when in close range, he was hitting Clay's body because that was the only available target. Those were also almost the only punches which came through, which might have made it looked like he only went to the body while he in fact didn't.

Well, it's interesting. I see him winging to the body in this round more than in any other round which is how we get onto the topic I guess. Whilst i'm not denying Liston went to the head too, this body word is unusual for Liston v an upset opponent. He uses bodywork to CAUSE the upset usually, then goes for the KO. I feel that Liston going for the body v the distressed Ali MORE in this round than in other rounds is a little odd.

And if he was supposed to throw the fight one round later, why would he not simply rest or do nothing inside instead of quickly following Clay around and using every upportunity to hit him, like in a clinch?

Nothing would look odder. That should be answer enogh, but as an aside, i've no doubt that Liston wanted to hurt Ali.





If that is so then Liston should get an Oscar because he did an absolutely brilliant job of looking just as slow as he always was against a much faster opponent. His oscar should be taken away after the second fight, though.

Yes Liston always plodded a bit. He often looked clumsy but there were things he did even AFTER the second Ali fight that he did not do in either one of those contest - moved his head after throwing a punch, feints with his feet (mainly), jabbing, and most of all, most stark in it's ommision, a devastating two fisted attack to body and head when he had his man backed up that little bit awkward. Seriouly, why does Liston not come out and go, "fuck it, i'm going to attack this guy regardless of the fact that he's going to hit me loads, it's time". Most fightrers ran from Liston and these were the techniques he employed(amongst others) to destroy them anyway. I see none of them in the fight.

At no time does Liston decide that he's going to get hit and bore in. IT'S FREAKISH.

I'd direct you towards Liston-McMurray if you're interested in seeing Liston fight post-Ali in this manner. He looks bigger, stronger and faster than he did for either Ali fight and the two fisted attack he uses to end it is as deadly as anything i've ever seen in the heavyweight ring. McMurray runs for the entire fight, possibly even wins a round, then gets starched in a brutal KO.

Liston looks very good, if not quite the fighter he was as challenger.




Because all signals of an out of shape, frustrated, quitting fighter who tried before he quit are there.

Fair enough. We can certianly agree on the quitting part.


By the same men but not the same circumstances. Ali was the champ now. Maybe the nation of terrorism thought that a well prepared, in-shape Liston was too much of a threat?

The title was still up for grabs. If the mob wanted a heavyweight title badly enough, why the fix second time around? Everything you say about Liston's percieved ability is still true (he was still a betting favourite).



Yes i'm pretty sure of that. No one saw it coming. Liston looked invincible in his recent outings. Even if Liston had lot just a little bit, there was no way he was gonna lose to Clay.

I don't really know how you can say that Liston was out of shape on the one hand and that those who were closest to him would not have noticed he was on the slide on the other.


Who knew he lied about it? Do we even know that now? No one is sure when he was born - he didn't even know himself.

Very well. But I'm sure we can both agree that he was ageing in terms of the era according to his offical age, that he was older than he told people he was and that he himself may not have known how old he was.



You don't need to be a Harvard business graduate to realise that cashing out when you're destroying everyone around in big money fights is a stupid thing to do. At this point everything indicated that Liston would've reigned for years and there was a lot of money to make from that.

Dead wrong. Liston was almost certainly losing the mob money by this stage. If you wanted to place a bet in NY city (and most of the rest of the east coast) you saw a mob bookie. Absolutley nobody was betting against Liston, everyone was betting for him and had been for a long time. 5-1 were the odds for Valdes on the street, unheard of for two ranked heavyweights I think. People - the wrong people - were clearing up on him. How much money the mob moved out of town to place on their man is up for debate - but the mob doesn't like %, regardless.

For the 1st Ali fight - Liston biggest - the managers end was about 400k. Liston's end was to be the same, but he had a couple of mob "seconds", a trainer etc. to pay for, let's say the mob lifted another 70k out of Liston's end. Great. Lovely.

But what if he loses? That's a %. And how to cover the betting expense? Because I promise you, Liston was costing some powerful grassroots types a lot of money every time he fought. And none of the Liston money would have been trickling down to them.

Liston had no manager of note. That 400k just evaporated. Here's why.


Not to mention that having the heavyweight champion of the world gives you a lot of power.

No. Not really. Not as far as these guys are concerned.

There were two men who really "owned" Liston, Frankie Carbo aka "The Gray", who was the closest thing the US had to a master criminal at that time, and Blinky Palermo, probably Carbo's underboss. Now, Tosches, "Night Train" paints Carbo as a guy who enjoyed the bauble that was the world heavyweight title but wasn't that interested and really only saw the money. John Dickie in "Cosa Nostra: The History of the Sicilian Mafia" he is painted as cooler than that: bottom line only. The truth will be in between. But I think Palermo liked it.

None of this mattered though when the FBI caught up to them on unrelated matters. Carbo was looking at life, Palermo went on the run (and was actually free during the first fight I think) but eventually got 15 years.

When a top mobster goes to jail, he MUST consolidate. What was his when he went in becomes a % deal - he gets to keep this % of that, this % of the next. What is unoquivically his? That is the only question that matters. Once The Gray got caught, once Palermo went on the run the power, the status means less than nothing at all: it is literally valueless - time to cash in.

This, I think, is the reason for the Ali throw - even if these guys thought Liston had 15 years left in him, even if he was 19, even if he made twice the money he did at gate, chances are that they would have made the move right then and there. Even at crap odds, and they were getting tremendous odds, huge odds.

Liston himself knew he had to throw one. He told Cox (sparring partner and buddy) he "would have to lose one sooner or later". Why not this one, Chris?

I think anyone with a business degree, taking his clients (Palermo, Carbo) circumstances into account would give advice to arrange the fall.

[McGrain]

Sorry, i had to split this post in two.

It's your fault, you got me started.




Can you think of a single other occasion in boxing history, any weightclass, where this happened? A fix when a fighter was destroying everyone around and just annihilated the champion twice?

Can you think of an ocaasion in boxing history where a fighter is owned by the biggest mobster in the country and that man desperatley needed millions? Carbo had five children that he wold admit to at the Kauverman hearings, was about to have many of his assets stripped and was looking at life in prison.


Was it Listons worst perforamnce? I don't know, Liston always looked slow and ponderous to me - he was just made to look a lot worse than normally because his opponent was so much better.

Ali was the best fighter that he (or any other HW IMO) ever fought. But to answer your first question - i haven't seen all of Liston's fights, but i've seen many of them, including a couple from after the Ali fights, and Liston looks by far and away the worst I have ever seen him in Ali I. There are so many things he didn't do were normal for him.



So you think Liston missed that left hook on purpose then ? And all those other hard shots?

I think it's possible, yes. Liston would obviously have to throw punches between the beginning of the first and whatever was meant to happen in the 6th.


The punch just BARELY missed Ali. Watch it again, if you think that's a purposely missed hook..... come on, anyone can see that that hook had "murder" written all over it.

Watching it again won't help me bro. I wish it would!


If he would've thrown the fight in 6, i think he would've thrown light jabs, go backward or slowly forward. But in reality, Liston plodded forward at his maximum speed and threw hard shots.

I would have expected him to move forward constantly to make himself available for shots. I would expect him to fail to duck out from any of those and I would expect him to throw his shots wider than was normal for him.

About what happend then.


Liston spoke to his eldest brother right after the fight. He is supposed to have said: "I did what they told me to do". There are loads of stories like this one, but I won't repeat them all here. They don't really prove anything IMO. They are there though if you are interested.

Did you know that Liston's crew bought the rights to promote Ali's next fight? They paid 50k, absolutley top whack.

Strange thing to do if they were so sure Ali was going to be a beaten and in nowhere by the end of the fight, don't you think?

[ChrisPontius]

Yeah, well, ok.. we can go on forever.

If you think Liston threw that murderous hook and missed it by a hair on purpose then i guess there's no way i can convince you. Nice debating though.:good

[McGrain]

Yeah, well, ok.. we can go on forever.

If you think Liston threw that murderous hook and missed it by a hair on purpose then i guess there's no way i can convince you. Nice debating though.:good

I agree there's no end in sight...

If you think the prediciment facing the men who owned Liston isn't reason enough to raise suspicions of a fix, I guess i'll never persuade you!

I do recomend that you check out the McMurray fight.

Always a pleasure debating someone as smart as you Chris.