147 lb Tourney Final - SUGAR v SUGAR

[Bill Butcher]

Well, suprise suprise, we have the dream match to settle all dream matches, probably the 2 greatest welter-wts who ever lived, both called sugar ray.

Opinions will vary on this 1 as neither have ever lost at this weight & quite often both looked unbeatable at the weight but who comes out on top, robinson or leonard.

Robinson saw off henry armstrong by a dazzling 21 votes to 2 while Leonard did likewise to jose napoles by 23 votes to 9.

Who is all time welterweight king, you have 2 days to decide, make your vote count.

[JohnThomas1]

Where's the ballot?

[McGrain]

I'd expect Robinson to dominate and stop Leonard. Not easy fighting a guy who does most of what you do better plus excellent power.

[Holmes' Jab]

All factors taken into consideration: Robinson holds the ever so slight edge, however I think SRL might just beat him in a head-to-head contest. Also he's the most complete package of any WW I've ever seen. :good


I'll put the cat amongst the pigeons and vote for Leonard.:good

[Holmes' Jab]

I'd expect Robinson to dominate and stop Leonard. Not easy fighting a guy who does most of what you do better plus excellent power.


Honestly?

I can't envisage either fighter dominating the other here. It's a pick 'em for me.

[McGrain]

Honestly?

I can't envisage either fighter dominating the other here. It's a pick 'em for me.

In which areas does Leonard exceed Robinson?

[biglads]

Robinson KO11 Leonard

I think Robinson at 147 is too good. SRL will have his moments with some flashy combos, but Robinson will wear him down, bust him up and then KO him late.

Robinson goes home in the Pink Caddy, Leonard is off the the infirmary for observation.

[Holmes' Jab]

In which areas does Leonard exceed Robinson?

Leonard had a very minor edge in handspeed and defence. Robinson carried more power, although more or less every other area was close to call between 'em. :good

[JohnThomas1]

In which areas does Leonard exceed Robinson?
Possibly hand speed, but Robinson's handspeed is if anything underrated now because the only common footage is at 160. I
think SRL would just edge him. Leonard might be the fasest 147 in history actually.

[McGrain]

Leonard had a very minor edge in handspeed and defence. Robinson carried more power, although more or less every other area was close to call between 'em. :good

I agree but understanding the following - Leonard is harder to hit, but only because he spends (generally) so little time in the firing zone. Despite being in the danger zone for huge portions of the match, Robinson is very hard to hit too. I think in this match, Leonards advantage in elusivenss is nul and void for this reason.

Second, Leonard MAY have an edge in handspeed. But I believe Robinson could throw punches just as quickly. It's just that when you throw very heavy blows in combinations you're going to be slowed up some. The difference needs to be massive to coutneract this huge Robinson advantage in punching. And it's just not.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not attacking Leonard. A great fighter, a top 5 WW, all time. But this match is just wrong for him - it's actually Robinson's easiest day out in the top 12 as far as I am concerned. The most over-hyped fantasy match in the sport.

[Holmes' Jab]

Anybody who thinks that there's a massive gulf in class between Robinson and a fellow Top 3 all-time WW, they're surely being a tad unrealistic. Both these guys bring to the table plenty of aces which will pose the other problems.

[JohnThomas1]

But this match is just wrong for him - it's actually Robinson's easiest day out in the top 12 as far as I am concerned. The most over-hyped fantasy match in the sport.

I totally disagree. Leonard will be competitive all the way. Robinson had his close calls at 147 vs fighters not as good as Leonard. I think Leonards style matches up possibly better than any other 147 truth be told. I also think SRR will still edge him, and any other 147 ever for that matter. Leonards speed is definitely going to disrupt SRR a bit, and don't be mistaken that he can't punch damn hard at 147 just because he moves a bit. This is a first class matchup.

[McGrain]

Anybody who thinks that there's a massive gulf in class between Robinson and a fellow Top 3 all-time WW, they're surely being a tad unrealistic. Both these guys bring to the table plenty of aces which will pose the other problems.

There is no gulf in class. They are both top .01%, all time. But if two greats meet and one outdoes the other in the areas where the first is used to excelling, the first will get soundly beaten.

Every time.

[JohnThomas1]

There is no gulf in class. They are both top .01%, all time. But if two greats meet and one outdoes the other in the areas where the first is used to excelling, the first will get soundly beaten.

Every time.

But in this case fighter 2 comes closer than most if not all others to matching fighter 1 in many area's. Gavilan had two great fights with SRR and Leonard brings some different assets to the table, not that Gavilan was lacking, super fighter. Realistically nobody at 147 has ever come anywhere near as close to matching SRR's immense completeness as Leonard. Neither have any standout weakness whatsoever, this just might be the most complete matchup of all time.

[McGrain]

I totally disagree. Leonard will be competitive all the way. Robinson had his close calls at 147 vs fighters not as good as Leonard.

And in addition, Leonard would be the best fighter Robinson ever fought, period. I'm not talking about class here.

I think Leonards style matches up possibly better than any other 147 truth be told.

Why? Punching, he loses. Footspeed, he loses. Aggression, he loses. Ring generalship...borderline, but he loses. Adaptability, close, but Robinson holds all the aces for changing this match, so he loses. What does he bring to upset Robinson? Specificifally.

[Bill Butcher]

SRR has the reach & the power, that might give him the edge because both are fast, great stamina, good finishers, super skills & the heart of a champion.

I think the reach & power will slow srl down in the last 3/4 rds enough for srr to pull away narrowly on the cards with srl still there at the end like a warrior.

In the end, I think robinson takes a UD by about 9-6 or 8-6-1 in rds.

If anyone can, leonard can but me thinks no-one can at 147.

[JohnThomas1]

Why? Punching, he loses. Footspeed, he loses. Aggression, he loses. Ring generalship...borderline, but he loses. Adaptability, close, but Robinson holds all the aces for changing this match, so he loses. What does he bring to upset Robinson? Specificifally.

You're getting far too hung up on what seems so on paper. If it worked this simple betting would not exist. I myself am not predicting a Leonard win, but i find your comment he would be Robinson's easiest match among the top 12 quite simply, astounding. Anyone writing Leonard off easily in any match at 147 does not fathom the substance of the man. As i said, Robinson had some tough matches at 147 with fighters far less talented than SRL, yet he easily outstripped them in every available asset. How could this have been? This is a tough night out for SRR, and he'd better bring his best to the table.

[JohnThomas1]

SRR has the reach & the power, that might give him the edge because both are fast, great stamina, good finishers, super skills & the heart of a champion.

I think the reach & power will slow srl down in the last 3/4 rds enough for srr to pull away narrowly on the cards with srl still there at the end like a warrior.

In the end, I think robinson takes a UD by about 9-6 or 8-6-1 in rds.

If anyone can, leonard can but me thinks no-one can at 147.

Great post, totally agree with Robinson easing away from Leonard late.

[McGrain]

You're getting far too hung up on what seems so on paper. If it worked this simple betting would not exist.

It's funny you should say this - i consider myself pretty moderate with my picks, I don't see myself as someone who very often insists for exactly this reason. If anything the opposite is true - i'm imagining specific style clashes rather than rellying upon resume news, which you have done, or tale of the tape, which Bill does above (nothing wrong with either - just saying).

Find me someoene else who looks at what's on paper and comes up with "easy win for Robinson" and we'll have something to talk about.

I myself am not predicting a Leonard win, but i find your comment he would be Robinson's easiest match among the top 12 quite simply, astounding.

Specifically, why? I've explained my position pretty clearly - Robinson edges Leonard in almost every area, the ones where he doesn't don't seem important to me as regards this match up. I'm not hating on Leonard, who I rate, I'm not bigging up Robinson, who I dislike (ducked a lot of my favourites you see). It's just the way I see it.

[JohnThomas1]

It's funny you should say this - i consider myself pretty moderate with my picks, I don't see myself as someone who very often insists for exactly this reason. If anything the opposite is true - i'm imagining specific style clashes rather than rellying upon resume news, which you have done, or tale of the tape, which Bill does above (nothing wrong with either - just saying).


Tell me how SRR beats Leonard easier than anyone else in the top 12 at 147. How do you envisage this easy win going?

Me, i see SRL blinding handspeed (faster than SRR had ever seen before) keeping him in both rounds and exchanges, i see his excellent durability and elusiveness keeping him both standing and competitive thru the length of the fight, his brilliant stamina will not see him fold and his power will keep SRR honest. His adaptability is second to none and this will see him winning some rounds and staying ever competitive. Again, even Robinson had his challenges at 147 and it is far from credible to see an immense talent like SRL pushing him hard and bringing out the best in him. Robinson doesn't have the reach and jabbing scythe that Thomas Hearns did. SRR does not have the reach on Leonard and a deep study will show this to be very integral to Leonard's competitiveness here.

[McGrain]

Tell me how SRR beats Leonard easier than anyone else in the top 12 at 147. How do you envisage this easy win going?

If Leonard looks to keep out of the way he's trying to do it with the best footwork he's ever been in with - now, I actually don't think this means he will fail to stay clear of very serious exchanges because he probably Could. But doing so would be exhausting. He'd be re-cutting the ring constantly, changing direction constantly, ont he back foot constantly because of Robinson's quickness. Robinson also has the better stamina here, of that there is little dount, although Leonard is no slouch.

For the first half of the fight here, you'd see Robinson win some rounds on aggression and punching and Leonard win some rounds on counterpunching and defence. I perosnally would envisage Robinson taking more of these first 7 or 8 rounds because the areas he's making his scoring in - punching and aggression - tend to be scored more consistantly than defence or counter-punching (unless Robinson is consistantly missing, which is unlikely - and remember, even upon missing Robinson rarely over-reached. His balance was para-normal (is that a word?)). In addition, Leonard in executing this plan won't hurt Robinson, or if he does it will be the exception rather than the rule. The reverse is unlikely to be true.

So we have the first half of the fight as a bigger test of the fighter with the lesser stamina, the less durable fighter being more consistantly hurt, the less accurate puncher counter-punching, the less hurtful puncher throwing less punches. Robinson has not been hurt and has had the rare luxury of using straight ahead footwork. Leonard has been running backwards and possibly been hurt.

The second half of a fight would show us if Leonard had an absolutley extraordinary heart, or just the heart of a great champion. My guess is Leonard, without having really tested or hurt Robinson, starts to seriously flag around ten. By 12 it would be about who was in his corner. If it's Dundee, he's probably sent out for the 13th, and be stoppoed there or in the 14th by the better puncher, boxer and ring general.

Me, i see SRL blinding handspeed (faster than SRR had ever seen before)

This is true, but I had the same argument with Senya about Calzaghe-Kessler a fortnight ago. Just becase Calzaghe has ditched only second class jabs doesn't mean that he will be unable to ditch a world class jab when he steps up. Just as I would be astonished if Leonard is automaticlaly "caught" because Robinson has better footwork than any of his other opponents, so I would be astonished if Robinson's incredble reactions were suddenly dulled because he stepped in with the fastest (handspeed) fighter he'd taken on.

keeping him in both rounds and exchanges,

Exchanges? If there are many exchanges this could be a slaughter. Leonard has to get away, there are good-punching middles who couldn't keep Robinson off, if Leonard tries to do so with his fairy dust (Relative, of course) he might get stopped early. I see Leonard pot shotting in ones and twos whilst shifting directions, changing the angles. He'd have medium success against the fastest man (reactions) he's ever been in with. OK, Duran may be comparable, actually.

His adaptability is second to none and this will see him winning some rounds and staying ever competitive.

YOu are right, he is a very adaptable fighter, but how does that help him in this one? What adaptions can he make, really? See what I'm saying? Not that Leonard is not good, but that he is no good against Robinson.

[enquirer]

Leonard on points over 15...The second sugar is more adaptable and will get the balance right between boxing,punching and brawling...I dont see robinson outboxing leonard as i dont think he has the style of tommy hearns or the inclination...Robinson has never met anyone with the speed and intelligence of ray leonard,whilst leonard has met and tamed the different though comparable offensive/pressurising capabilities of duran,hearns and hagler (conversely he also beat and outhought the master defense of benitez.)..Leonard is too smart to just try to brawl with a true welter bomber like robinson and his defense will be key in this fight...A true masterclass of skills and competition with leonards intelligence,defense and adaptability winning the day....

[enquirer]

Mcgrain,i can see why most will pick robinson,but most underestimate leonards balls,punch power and intelligence,and i think you are grossly underrating ray and overstating robinson...Lets remember leonard was never stopped or near to stopped at welter,that he finshed very strongly against hearns,duran and benitez in very competitive fights. (14,15 and 15 rounds.) I dont see how robinsons stamina is better at 147,who did robinson show this superior stamina against?
Hearns was superior as a one punch hitter to robinson and yet never at any point did he have a stoppage opportunity,hearns was also as fast and as elusive as robinson at welter with a better jab...I will concede robinson may have had the better overall arsenal,but without the jab and reach of hearns he cannot just outbox or bomb without catching some fire back....I think you dont appreciate the power of leonard at 147,i dont think robinson could walk through leonards power or speed...
Robinson wont outhink or outspeed ray leonard without borrowing tommy hearns' height,jab and reach....
Robinson wins this by outpunching/outworking leonard,roberto duran style....
Maybe a 50/50 fight....

[JohnThomas1]

If Leonard looks to keep out of the way he's trying to do it with the best footwork he's ever been in with - now, I actually don't think this means he will fail to stay clear of very serious exchanges because he probably would be. But doing so would be exhausting. He'd be re-cutting the ring constantly, changing direction constantly, ont he back foot constantly because of Robinson's quickness.

Leonard had to deal with some serious offensive firepower and stalking in Hearns, then had to turn the chaser at various times, then back etc. Robinson will also be hunting the best mover he has ever faced. It's twofold. Don't think Leonard has to run, this isn't 160 against a bigger man.

Robinson also has the better stamina here, of that there is little dount, although Leonard is no slouch.

Personally i don't think it is as doubtless as you claim. Leonard came back to win a couple of rounds very late vs a Duran who had really gone at him, to the body too. Leonard also showed brilliant stamina when rallying very late vs Hearns. I think you are again cutting Leonard a little short.

For the first half of the fight here, you'd see Robinson win some rounds on aggression and punching and Leonard win some rounds on counterpunching and defence. I perosnally would envisage Robinson taking more of these first 7 or 8 rounds because the areas he's making his scoring in - punching and aggression - tend to be scored more consistantly than defence or counter-punching (unless Robinson is consistantly missing, which is unlikely - and remember, even upon missing Robinson rarely over-reached. His balance was para-normal (is that a word?)).

All of a sudden you are seeing both win some rounds in the first 7 or 8. Your tone might indicate 4-3 or 5-3. I find this to be slightly against your claim SRR will beat Leonard easier than anyone else he'd face in the top 12. Heck it's entirely possible there's fighters in the top 12 that might not be on their feet at this stage.

In addition, Leonard in executing this plan won't hurt Robinson, or if he does it will be the exception rather than the rule. The reverse is unlikely to be true.

Robinson was stunned by lesser punchers than Leonard, unlikely i agree but certainly not beyond the realm.


So we have the first half of the fight as a bigger test of the fighter with the lesser stamina, the less durable fighter being more consistantly hurt, the less accurate puncher counter-punching, the less hurtful puncher throwing less punches.

Yet you say Leonard will take some of these rounds. What you describe above sounds like an utter thrashing.

Robinson has not been hurt and has had the rare luxury of using straight ahead footwork. Leonard has been running backwards and possibly been hurt.

Totally disagree. Leonard will be moving laterally far more often than backward. There's a big difference. It seems to me you are picturing the Leonard that fought Hagler, and this fight isn't near the same vein. Even vs Hearns Leonard wasn't "running". Robinson is not bigger than Leonard here, unlike Hagler.

The second half of a fight would show us if Leonard had an absolutley extraordinary heart, or just the heart of a great champion. My guess is Leonard, without having really tested or hurt Robinson, starts to seriously flag around ten. By 12 it would be about who was in his corner. If it's Dundee, he's probably sent out for the 13th, and be stoppoed there or in the 14th by the better puncher, boxer and ring general.

Personally i think the slightly better Robinson might ease away and win the fight in the last 5. I only see maybe a 2 point diff or similar.

This is true, but I had the same argument with Senya about Calzaghe-Kessler a fortnight ago. Just becase Calzaghe has ditched only second class jabs doesn't mean that he will be unable to ditch a world class jab when he steps up.

Is Kessler's jab that good? Calz was a damn proven fighter, he wasn't about to succumb his unbeaten to a mere jab. Calz has a variety of answers to a decent jab. Leonards handspeed will be far more beneficial than the Kessler jab Senya overtrumped substancially. Granted it won't defeat Robbo on it's own but it's going to factor in some.

Exchanges? If there are many exchanges this could be a slaughter. Leonard has to get away, there are good-punching middles who couldn't keep Robinson off, if Leonard tries to do so with his fairy dust (Relative, of course) he might get stopped early. I see Leonard pot shotting in ones and twos whilst shifting directions, changing the angles. He'd have medium success against the fastest man (reactions) he's ever been in with. OK, Duran may be comparable, actually.

Again it's a two way street, Leonards reactions are catlike too. You made the wrong comparison tho, Benitez's actual reactions are better than both Duran AND Robinson. He said he had radar in his eyes, and he sure as hell wasn't kidding.

YOu are right, he is a very adaptable fighter, but how does that help him in this one? What adaptions can he make, really? See what I'm saying? Not that Leonard is not good, but that he is no good against Robinson.

Leonard's adaptions and variety will win him rounds my friend. Not enough rounds for mine but it will be close, certainly closer than you claim IMO. As far as "no good" vs Robinson, i think Leonard will fare better than anyone that ever preceeded him, including the great Gavilan. And that's sayin' something. Leonard is a great survivor, but even his ability to survive is overtaken by his will to win. He will try anything to win this one and has a fantastic corner guiding him. I am taking peak Leonqard to fight this fight, and i see peak Leonard as the one who had just beaten Hearns.

Enjoying the debate mate.

[JohnThomas1]

As the self appointed official ESB oddsmaker i am making SRR 7-5 fave.

[McGrain]

Mcgrain,i can see why most will pick robinson,but most underestimate leonards balls,punch power and intelligence,and i think you are grossly underrating ray and overstating robinson...

Let's be clear here - I think Robinson is #1 ww all time, I think Leonard is #4. Nothing odd here, nobody is overated or underated. Normally there is next to nothing between 1 and 4. That is also the case here, in terms of pure quality. What I am saying is is that the things the areas where Leonard is very very strong Robinson is either equally strong, stronger, or nearly as strong. Meanwhile, Robinson still has some areas where he completely dominates Leonard (composite punching, power for example). Leonard is overhauled in this match up. It would be competitive because of Leonard's sheer quality, but a clear victory for Robinson, probably by TKO.

Lets remember leonard was never stopped or near to stopped at welter,that he finshed very strongly against hearns,duran and benitez in very competitive fights. (14,15 and 15 rounds.) I dont see how robinsons stamina is better at 147,who did robinson show this superior stamina against?

At 147 i've never seen him fight, though there are stories. Against LaMotta in their final contest, Robinson was in with one of busiest, durable MW's in history and he set a pace that man couldn't match. Watching that film, a man could believe the myth of "finishing stronger". When he was near peak, Robinson's stamina was limitless for practical purposes and is proven to be so. If you want to talk about fighting more than 15 that might be different.

Hearns was superior as a one punch hitter to robinson and yet never at any point did he have a stoppage opportunity,hearns was also as fast and as elusive as robinson at welter with a better jab

I agree that Hearns was a better one-punch hitter - I also actually feel he is comparable as a composite punche, very impressive win. I cold not disagree with you more that he is "as elusive at Robinson at welter", I think that is an extraordinary claim. Regardless, I fail to see what the relevance would be here, given that any sensible plan has Leoanrd on the back foot (those who think otherwise should have another look at the Duran I tape and ask themselves what a faster, better puncher would do).

i dont think robinson could walk through leonards power

I agre with this. But that certainly would not be Robinson's plan unless Leonard decided to brawl with him. If Leoanrd does this then it will be worth Robinsons while to take some punches to score the KO.



Maybe a 50/50 fight....

I see it as as clear cut as it can be when two greats enter the same ring.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Robinson had his close calls at 147 vs fighters not as good as Leonard.


Oh come on mate, if a boxer fights about 100 times at welter he's sure to have a few more close calls than someone who fights 30 times at the weight.



Oh and Robinson's odds are now 8-5 at closing. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Oh come on mate, if a boxer fights about 100 times at welter he's sure to have a few more close calls than someone who fights 30 times at the weight.



Oh and Robinson's odds are now 8-5 at closing. :good

Hahaha, fair nuff mate. Don't tell me however that Leonard isn't going to be competitive nor that he will be beaten easier than all others in the top 12.

BBOB i think picked SRR via split decision. This fight is competitive.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Hahaha, fair nuff mate. Don't tell me however that Leonard isn't going to be competitive nor that he will be beaten easier than all others in the top 12.

BBOB i think picked SRR via split decision. This fight is competitive.



Of course. No one beats Leonard out of sight. His blinding speed alone wins him some rounds, but Robbi's no slouch and his power would be a factor in swinging rounds his way. Still, UD to SRR but fairly close (9-6).

[JohnThomas1]

Of course. No one beats Leonard out of sight. His blinding speed alone wins him some rounds, but Robbi's njo slough and his power would be a factor in swinging rounds his way. Still, UD to SRR but fairly close (9-6).

And that's about what i have been saying all along mate. 9-6 or maybe 8-6-1 at the closest.

[enquirer]

I can see people saying robinson wins,even clearly,but not by stoppage as ray was never even close to being stopped at welter or in fact any weight. (i discount the camcho match.)
There is no concrete example of robinson being superior to leonard in stamina,especially at welter....Leonard showed extraordinary stamina in the two bouts with hearns and duran respectively,remember he moved for the first five rounds v hearns,had his eye closed and was being soundly outboxed but threw huge flurries in the 13th and 14th to force a stoppage,and against duran he was subjected to a pounding and went life and death for fifteen rounds yet still took the last round and never faded... He also finished strongly enough to force a 15 round stoppage v benitez,all these fights occured at welter...
If you think tommy has comparable offense to robinson what makes you think robbie stops leonard if tommy never even came close? Especially seeing as tommy had the better jab to set up the punches...
By tommy being elusive i mean because of his reach and jab keeping him out of trouble,at welter tommy was very elusive...
Duran is a totally different type of fighter to robinson,and in montreal he closed the distance very quickly,bored inside to the body,relentlessly attacked,wrestled and during all this bobbed,weaved and defended,this is not robinsons style at all,so the comparison is not valid,hearns was a faster and better puncher than duran,same as robinson,but lost to leonard....
My main point is i dont feel there is any welter in history who is going to eat leonards punches to score a ko,or beat ray inside schedule...

[McGrain]

Leonard had to deal with some serious offensive firepower and stalking in Hearns, then had to turn the chaser at various times, then back etc. Robinson will also be hunting the best mover he has ever faced. It's twofold. Don't think Leonard has to run, this isn't 160 against a bigger man.

Robinson is slightly bigger with better reach and a far superior offensive arsenal. Leonard is very slightly speedier. If he doesn't run he will be dominated and stopped.

I agree that Robinson will be hunting the best mover he's ever faced. I also think this has no relevance. The list of assets that each man posseses that outstrips the opposition the other man has faced will be long, long. The assets that Leonard has where he outstrips Robinson will be short. This is far more relevant.



Personally i don't think it is as doubtless as you claim. Leonard came back to win a couple of rounds very late vs a Duran who had really gone at him, to the body too. Leonard also showed brilliant stamina when rallying very late vs Hearns. I think you are again cutting Leonard a little short.

Nowhere in this thread have I criticised Leonard's stamina. So I am hardly selling him short. I have said that in a 15 round fight Robinson's stamina has been proved limitless for practical purposes. I stand by that.

And my point was relative, which you seem to have dismissed. Leonard is the running counter-punching fighter in this fight (normally doom when you have two speedsters, surely?) which will tax even the greatest of staminas to the absolutle maximum, especially when they are in with a great punhcer. Robinson's stamina would not be tested in this way in this fight.

What this adds up to is actually small things. Tired men are less quick, less decisive, less keen to punch. All fatal here.


All of a sudden you are seeing both win some rounds in the first 7 or 8. Your tone might indicate 4-3 or 5-3.

I never claimed a whitewash anywhere. Of course Leonard will win rounds, there is nothing sudden in this. My position again - Robinson would not lose. Robinson would never be in real danger. Robinson would win the fight by late stoppage, taking over almost completely down the back straight.

I find this to be slightly against your claim SRR will beat Leonard easier than anyone else he'd face in the top 12.

I stand by it, see no reason to change it based upon the fact that Leoanrd might wins some rounds early by my addmission.


Yet you say Leonard will take some of these rounds. What you describe above sounds like an utter thrashing.

That's just a summary of the first part of the fight. Leonard can win rounds whilst spending more stamina than his opponent (As you know) Leonard can also win rounds despite the fact that he is the lesser puncher (As you know).


Totally disagree. Leonard will be moving laterally far more often than backward. There's a big difference.

I agree that he'll do plenty of lateral movement BUT when you are in with a very very quick fighter who is a puncher and has excellent footwork you do lots of re-cutting. Lots of changing direction, re-organising. This is almost as bad as back-peddaling - in fact in my limited experience it is worse, although I accept it might not be the case for these boys, it's surely in the same sort of neighbourhood. If you are conceeding that Leonard will be giving ground during the fight, you must also conceed that it will be faster, more difficult with more sudden changes of direction and plan than is normal. Like I said, exhausting.

And even in your version he is still taking many more steps than Robinson, who has better stamina. And I have to be honest with you John, here I don't see your version as realistic.

It seems to me you are picturing the Leonard that fought Hagler, and this fight isn't near the same vein. Even vs Hearns Leonard wasn't "running". Robinson is not bigger than Leonard here, unlike Hagler.

Robinson is by far the better puncher (than Leonard). As a composite puncher I rate him in the class above Hagler. Although i accept that Leonard won't behave as he did for Marvin (he had serious stamina issues for that fight IMO) I do think a less timid version of that plan is what he would bring.

He loses though. His best chance for victory is to stand and trade, I guess, hope for the punch. He loses though.



Leonard's adaptions and variety will win him rounds my friend.

But what adapations? I honestly don't understand what adaptions Leonard can make, I can't see the alternative fight plan, I can't see what in the ring adjustment will save him.

Enjoying the debate mate.

Always a pleasure John.

[jonesjrp4p1]

its a pick em to me but i think robinson will take it in a close ud

[Manassa]

Ray Leonard? :lol:

Benny Leonard would have a better chance of beating Robinson than Ray Leonard.

[JohnThomas1]

Robinson is slightly bigger with better reach and a far superior offensive arsenal. Leonard is very slightly speedier. If he doesn't run he will be dominated and stopped.

Moving laterally is not the same as running. Why didn't Robinson stop Gavilan in either fight given that he stood his ground? Leonard's offensive arsenal is also not to be scoffed at.

I agree that Robinson will be hunting the best mover he's ever faced. I also think this has no relevance.
How could this have no relevance? Given that the said mover hits far far harder than Gavilan.

The list of assets that each man posseses that outstrips the opposition the other man has faced will be long, long. The assets that Leonard has where he outstrips Robinson will be short. This is far more relevant.
The first point puts both in unknown territory. It also makes Leonard quite competitive IMO.

Nowhere in this thread have I criticised Leonard's stamina.
The quote below

Robinson also has the better stamina here, of that there is little dount
leads me to think you might underrate Leonard's stamina a little. He showed superb stamina vs 3 ATG's late in their fights.









Personally i don't think it is as doubtless as you claim. Leonard came back to win a couple of rounds very late vs a Duran who had really gone at him, to the body too. Leonard also showed brilliant stamina when rallying very late vs Hearns. I think you are again cutting Leonard a little short.

Nowhere in this thread have I criticised Leonard's stamina. So I am hardly selling him short. I have said that in a 15 round fight Robinson's stamina has been proved limitless for practical purposes. I stand by that.

And my point was relative, which you seem to have dismissed. Leonard is the running counter-punching fighter in this fight (normally doom when you have two speedsters, surely?) which will tax even the greatest of staminas to the absolutle maximum, especially when they are in with a great punhcer. Robinson's stamina would not be tested in this way in this fight.
Leonard had to do plenty vs Hearns. I do agree tho that SRR eases away late, have always agreed. I cannot however see Leonard being stopped at all.

What this adds up to is actually small things. Tired men are less quick, less decisive, less keen to punch. All fatal here.
TBH i cannot see Leonard being any more tired than he was vs Duran, a brutal battle. He'd never been under anything like that pressure yet was firing very well at the end. Leonard will be quite ok.

I never claimed a whitewash anywhere. Of course Leonard will win rounds, there is nothing sudden in this. My position again - Robinson would not lose. Robinson would never be in real danger. Robinson would win the fight by late stoppage, taking over almost completely down the back straight.
I can't see a stoppage, and nor can i see Robinson "taking over almost completely down the back straight". Again i take solace in the Duran fight, nobody is putting on more heat.

I stand by it, see no reason to change it based upon the fact that Leoanrd might wins some rounds early by my addmission.
You'd better give me your other 10 in the top 12 then so i can dig much deeper. Finding one from that many fighters that Robinson will defeat easier will be absolute chicken feed to be honest.

That's just a summary of the first part of the fight. Leonard can win rounds whilst spending more stamina than his opponent (As you know) Leonard can also win rounds despite the fact that he is the lesser puncher (As you know).
I'm going up against your comment Leonard will be Robinson's easiest win out of the top 12. I believe many will not even win this many rounds all fight, IF they survive this long at all. It's a big big call from you.

And even in your version he is still taking many more steps than Robinson, who has better stamina. And I have to be honest with you John, here I don't see your version as realistic.

No worries, i don't see all the other 10 doing better than Leonard as very realistic either.

Robinson is by far the better puncher (than Leonard). As a composite puncher I rate him in the class above Hagler.
He's easily better than Hagler, but given this is at 147 and Ray is not blown up or past it it's not going to remotely resemble this fight.

He loses though. His best chance for victory is to stand and trade, I guess, hope for the punch. He loses though.

His best chance of winning is lateral movement with the odd flurry hoping to lead this fight. He might also happen to hurt Robinson, it's been done before. Both slim pickings, but the only pickings really. He's gotta float and trade at the right times, with variety.

But what adapations? I honestly don't understand what adaptions Leonard can make, I can't see the alternative fight plan, I can't see what in the ring adjustment will save him.
Leonard's adaptions will be variety of offense so Robinson can't time him, which of course also makes it harder for Robinson to defend against. If Leonard gets predictable he's in trouble, but he won't.

Again i ask how come peak Robinson didn't come close to stopping Gavilan in either fight.

[Holmes' Jab]

Ray Leonard? :lol: ,
Benny Leonard would have a better chance of beating Robinson than Ray Leonard.


Yeah- "My granny could beat Ray Leonard, with her zimmer frame and handbag" :roll: :dead


Wise up. Nobody would have an easy night against SRL at WW (a great deal would lose), Robbo is no different. It'd be a truely fantastic fight. :good

[Manassa]

Yeah- "My granny could beat Ray Leonard, with her zimmer frame and handbag" :roll: :dead


Wise up. Nobody would have an easy night against SRL at WW (a great deal would lose), Robbo is no different. It'd be a truely fantastic fight. :good

Napoles would have the easiest night with Leonard. Or Gavilan, who was essentially a better version of Ray.

[Senya13]

Robinson with his footspeed, handspeed (while inferior to Leonard's per se, but faster when power punching is concerned) and awkward angles of attacks (the footage of him near his prime weight and years reminds of RJJ actually), comes on top in offence, and his reflexes and counter-punching don't allow Leonard to steal enough rounds to get a decision. Most probably a KO win for Robinson though.

[Nick Balsamo]

Ray Leonard? :lol:

Benny Leonard would have a better chance of beating Robinson than Ray Leonard.

What happened to you buddy ? You seem completely lost...:patsch

[Manassa]

What happened to you buddy ? You seem completely lost...:patsch

I woke up. Why don't you...

[McGrain]

I woke up. Why don't you...

:lol:

Did you know that's a line from Predator?

[Manassa]

:lol:

Did you know that's a line from Predator?

Affirmative. I'll be back, I just need to hasta la pizza.

[McGrain]

Moving laterally is not the same as running.

I know that - nor did I say it was. I said that whey I am in the ring I find swift re-cutting (my term I think - changing direction quickly, changing any plans very quickly, allowing for the super-fast box puncher coming the other way, in this insance) and suggested that for these top athletes, although it also won't be as bad as re-cutting (TM) it will be very tiring when carried out against a fighter with such excellent footwork.

Why didn't Robinson stop Gavilan in either fight given that he stood his ground? Leonard's offensive arsenal is also not to be scoffed at.

Leonard's offensive arsenal is fine - it's just not good enough to keep Robinson from him. My basic position is that Leonard has to give ground in order to keep from getting a hiding - do you dispute this?

Are you quite happy with Gavlin as a foil for Leonard? He seems like a pretty static fighter to me, by comparison, as well as one tough man. Not that Leoanrd is nt tough. But he isn't a tough it fighter.


How could this have no relevance?

John, you're a top poster, so i don't mean any offense by this at all I swear. But every thread that ever gets opened where two ATG fighters are matched some joker will say, "yeah, but Louis never faced a punch like Foreman". We know that; it's rare that two ATG fighters will be matched where one doesn't exceed the other's competition in some way or another.

You've (sort of) hit the nail on the head here, with comparisons to Gavlin though. That's a lot more like sense. Although I'm not convinced, as i've said.

It also makes Leonard quite competitive IMO.

Leonard wouldn't neccisarily be outclassed, he's an ATG fighter, arguably top 10 of all fighters ever (though I have him in the low teens, I think) - just soundly beaten by a man who does most of what he does better than him.

leads me to think you might underrate Leonard's stamina a little. He showed superb stamina vs 3 ATG's late in their fights.

What i will do for you John - rewatch a couple of Leonard fights in the coming weeks and have a rethink on this specific area. But i'll be surprised if I see anything as impressive as what Robinson has shown (also baring in mind that we have no footage of his peak years :twisted: )*.



TBH i cannot see Leonard being any more tired than he was vs Duran, a brutal battle.

If Leonard fought the fight he fought in Duran I, I promise you bud, he wouldn't have to worry about the later rounds in the slightest.


You'd better give me your other 10 in the top 12 then so i can dig much deeper.

Benitez, Napoles, Duran, Ted Lewis, Armstrong, Grifith, Walcott, Langford, Mickey Walker and Charley Burley.

But for Christ sake, let's leave Burley out of this, we could be here until Christmas :lol:


[quote]Leonard's adaptions will be variety of offense so Robinson can't time him, which of course also makes it harder for Robinson to defend against.[/quote[

I will agree with you that Leonard is perfectly capable of doing this in normal - or even odd - circumstances. Will you not agree with me that Robinson is one of the most exquisite timers of a man, ever?

[dpw417]

Tell me how SRR beats Leonard easier than anyone else in the top 12 at 147. How do you envisage this easy win going?

Me, i see SRL blinding handspeed (faster than SRR had ever seen before) keeping him in both rounds and exchanges, i see his excellent durability and elusiveness keeping him both standing and competitive thru the length of the fight, his brilliant stamina will not see him fold and his power will keep SRR honest. His adaptability is second to none and this will see him winning some rounds and staying ever competitive. Again, even Robinson had his challenges at 147 and it is far from credible to see an immense talent like SRL pushing him hard and bringing out the best in him. Robinson doesn't have the reach and jabbing scythe that Thomas Hearns did. SRR does not have the reach on Leonard and a deep study will show this to be very integral to Leonard's competitiveness here.
I really like this assessment of 'Sugar v Sugar'. this is actually one of my favorite fantasy match-ups. Robinson's explosiveness and power win the day for him, but leonard is very close in all areas...In the power department however, I think SRR is superior....Because of th epower he displayed at middle...I don't know if Robinson would be the hardest hitting welter that SRL has faced....That distintion just might go to Hearns on a punch for punch basis. But Robinson had better explosive combinations.
I like SRR by close UD (at his very best)

[McGrain]

His power is the only thing see that he has better of than Leonard. A stoppage is HIGHLY unlikely.

Really? So your picking the technical execution of Leonard's left hook over over the technical execution of Leonard's left hook? Do you also think that Leonard is stronger and has longer reach?

[McGrain]

When you use punches as compact as Robinson does against a mover like Leonard, I don't think reach is gonna be a big asset.

There may be something to this - but what i'm interested in now is your claim that Robinson exceeds Leonard in only one area, power.

[McGrain]

Robinson KO11 Leonard

I think Robinson at 147 is too good. SRL will have his moments with some flashy combos, but Robinson will wear him down, bust him up and then KO him late.

Robinson goes home in the Pink Caddy, Leonard is off the the infirmary for observation.

Hey! I totally missed this guy! What a great post. Chap, you are spot on.

:good :D

[McGrain]

:blood

It's nice when you're saying one thing - and your the only one saying it - to have someone else join in.

Even some newbie. ;)

[JohnThomas1]

I know that - nor did I say it was. I said that whey I am in the ring I find swift re-cutting (my term I think - changing direction quickly, changing any plans very quickly, allowing for the super-fast box puncher coming the other way, in this insance) and suggested that for these top athletes, although it also won't be as bad as re-cutting (TM) it will be very tiring when carried out against a fighter with such excellent footwork.



Leonard's offensive arsenal is fine - it's just not good enough to keep Robinson from him. My basic position is that Leonard has to give ground in order to keep from getting a hiding - do you dispute this?

Are you quite happy with Gavlin as a foil for Leonard? He seems like a pretty static fighter to me, by comparison, as well as one tough man. Not that Leoanrd is nt tough. But he isn't a tough it fighter.




John, you're a top poster, so i don't mean any offense by this at all I swear. But every thread that ever gets opened where two ATG fighters are matched some joker will say, "yeah, but Louis never faced a punch like Foreman". We know that; it's rare that two ATG fighters will be matched where one doesn't exceed the other's competition in some way or another.

You've (sort of) hit the nail on the head here, with comparisons to Gavlin though. That's a lot more like sense. Although I'm not convinced, as i've said.



Leonard wouldn't neccisarily be outclassed, he's an ATG fighter, arguably top 10 of all fighters ever (though I have him in the low teens, I think) - just soundly beaten by a man who does most of what he does better than him.



What i will do for you John - rewatch a couple of Leonard fights in the coming weeks and have a rethink on this specific area. But i'll be surprised if I see anything as impressive as what Robinson has shown (also baring in mind that we have no footage of his peak years :twisted: )*.





If Leonard fought the fight he fought in Duran I, I promise you bud, he wouldn't have to worry about the later rounds in the slightest.




Benitez, Napoles, Duran, Ted Lewis, Armstrong, Grifith, Walcott, Langford, Mickey Walker and Charley Burley.

But for Christ sake, let's leave Burley out of this, we could be here until Christmas :lol:


[quote]Leonard's adaptions will be variety of offense so Robinson can't time him, which of course also makes it harder for Robinson to defend against.[/quote[

I will agree with you that Leonard is perfectly capable of doing this in normal - or even odd - circumstances. Will you not agree with me that Robinson is one of the most exquisite timers of a man, ever?

Hey thanks for the debate. I appreciate the time and thought you have put in mate. I am a massive fan of SRR and agree with many of your assessments of him, after all he is the greatest of the greatest. As close to the perfect fighter as we will ever see many very knowledgable obserbers have said. Guys that saw him at his 147 greatest.

:good

[JohnThomas1]

I really like this assessment of 'Sugar v Sugar'. this is actually one of my favorite fantasy match-ups. Robinson's explosiveness and power win the day for him, but leonard is very close in all areas...In the power department however, I think SRR is superior....Because of th epower he displayed at middle...I don't know if Robinson would be the hardest hitting welter that SRL has faced....That distintion just might go to Hearns on a punch for punch basis. But Robinson had better explosive combinations.
I like SRR by close UD (at his very best)

Thanks mate, and i agree with SRR carrying his power much better, grew into a massive hitting 160 actually.

[MAD - MIKE -]

One man stands a chance at beating sugar ray robinson - the 1980 montreal roberto duran who beat the other ray that wood rock! Or at a catch weight 140lbs duran a 135lb monster vs ray rob when ray was coming up to 147. If that duran don't win just 4get it Pal! MAD - MIKE -

[Bill Butcher]

Napoles would have the easiest night with Leonard.

Leonard just whipped napoles ass in the semi-final in order to meet robinson.

The majority side with srl on that one.

:D

[Bill Butcher]

Oh, I forgot to say cheers for all the posts (far more than I expected) & since the poll is just about to close with robinson a clear enough winner on the poll, its time to move on to the MWTs (also look out for the congrats thread for SRR winning the welter-wt tournament.)

[JohnThomas1]

So what's the semi line up at 160? Robinson, Hopkins, Monzon and maybe Hagler?

[werety]

Leonard for all intensive purposes isnt much faster than Robinson. Watch the actual power punches he throws against Hearns and then watch the ones Robinson throws against Lamotta. If u take in count the weight difference I really can't see much of a handspeed difference at all. I feel Robinson is too much offensively for Leonard and unlike most I think he wins a fairly lopsided decision. I actually see Duran Robinson being a more interesting matchup based on styles althought i still rate Leonard much higher as a welterweight but I just feel that Robinson is just a slightly better version of Leonard in most areas.

[redrooster]

All factors taken into consideration: Robinson holds the ever so slight edge, however I think SRL might just beat him in a head-to-head contest. Also he's the most complete package of any WW I've ever seen. :good


I'll put the cat amongst the pigeons and vote for Leonard.:good

fuckin crazy! :lol:

[redrooster]

McGrain you were right to hold your ground. Let's not forget the problems leonard had with Thomas hearns. Didn't look so formidable in that one, behind to a guy with 3 measely defenses employing a simple stick and move strategy.

Let's not forget the Kevin Howard fight that made leonard lose his appetite for fist for entire three years. And he totally didn't know what he was doing in the Norris fight. :lol: What do you think Robinson would do to leonard? He crush his spirit then he'd crush leonard.

[JohnThomas1]

I'll post a little dream fight article if i get the inspiration or interest.

So who think's it's not beyond the realm that Leonard is actually a little stronger than SRR?

[redrooster]

I'll post a little dream fight article if i get the inspiration or interest.

So who think's it's not beyond the realm that Leonard is actually a little stronger than SRR?

Somebody please respond to this and hurry :lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

Well, suprise suprise, we have the dream match to settle all dream matches, probably the 2 greatest welter-wts who ever lived, both called sugar ray.

Opinions will vary on this 1 as neither have ever lost at this weight & quite often both looked unbeatable at the weight but who comes out on top, robinson or leonard.


One stole the name, the other invented it, any questions? :smoke

[RoccoMarciano]

So who think's it's not beyond the realm that Leonard is actually a little stronger than SRR?

So why do you think L is stronger, John?

[redrooster]

Well, suprise suprise, we have the dream match to settle all dream matches, probably the 2 greatest welter-wts who ever lived, both called sugar ray.

Opinions will vary on this 1 as neither have ever lost at this weight & quite often both looked unbeatable at the weight but who comes out on top, robinson or leonard.

Robinson saw off henry armstrong by a dazzling 21 votes to 2 while Leonard did likewise to jose napoles by 23 votes to 9.

Who is all time welterweight king, you have 2 days to decide, make your vote count.

We have a fabricator on the forum. Funny how he thought he could sneak that one in. :D

[RoccoMarciano]

We have a fabricator on the forum. Funny how he thought he could sneak that one in. :D
What, RR? Surely SRL never lost..:lol: Or did he? :lol:

Accurate details, please!

[JohnThomas1]

So why do you think L is stronger, John?

Hey, i said nothing of the sort!! :hey

[McGrain]

So who think's it's not beyond the realm that Leonard is actually a little stronger than SRR?

:lol:

Well put.

I think it's not impossible - the fact is though, Robinson is the proven fighter when it comes to strength, having operated in the weight division above without looking bullied. Going into the fight I would be quite confident that Robinson was stronger until Leonard showed otherwise. If it happened I would be very surprised, and it would be interesting to see Robinson trying to find the correct adapation (a burden that would have been on Leonard previously).