Is Ali untouchable as far as criticism goes??

[Jack Dempsey]

Can you criticise Ali without invoking the wrath of the Ali lovers?? is he untouchable?

I see very few negative comments about the man and his career without there being a huge backlash.

Can he be criticised fairly and justly or is he just too damn good???

[janitor]

Nobody is untouchable as far as criticism goes.

Not even fighters who compiled their records before the advent of colour television.

[Jack Dempsey]

Nobody is untouchable as far as criticism goes.

Not even fighters who compiled their records before the advent of colour television.

People fought before colour tv!!?!!!?!:admin

I agree that no-one is 'above the law' so to speak, but in forum discussions is Ali just a little too protected by his fans???

[Jack Dempsey]

Going against the status quo will cause you to be an outcast. especially with the sheer amount of ali huggers on this sight.

Glad you joined in Legend, you re one poster I've seen 'go against the grain' where Ali is concerned, what are your views on him?

[McGrain]

This thread could be really fun. Check Janitor's answer and Legend's answer. Politics man, politics.

Anyway, yes. People go crazy if you slag of Ali. An even handed Ali fan is a rare and wonderful thing.

[My dinner with Conteh]

An even handed Ali fan is a rare and wonderful thing.



He's here. :good

[McGrain]

He's here. :good

I tell you, you're not far off.

Bro.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Glad you joined in Legend, you re one poster I've seen 'go against the grain' where Ali is concerned, what are your views on him?



Legend's a bigger Tyson cock smoker than even Groove is to Ali...or Bill 1234 is to The Mallard.*




* Nearly.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I tell you, you're not far off.

Bro.



:lol:

[Jack Dempsey]

He's horribly overrated, The reputation of his opponents prop up his own reputation. The only reason his opponents have a reputation is for fighting him or fighting someone who fought him. they get a reputation because they're fighting Ali, and ali has a great reputation.

The 70's heavyweights are a perpetual self-contained hype machine, to mention they recieved a huge influx of hype from the media of the day. time has only seen their legend grow even more.

:smoke

This is qualty, I love it when myths and auras around supposed 'super humans' are challenged

[My dinner with Conteh]

So when you combine the speed of ali, the power of foreman, and the punching of louis into a single package with an iron jaw, you get someone who will evidently lose because he doesn't have "heart".



Yep. Someone with the heart of, say, Kenny Bugger would have a great chance. :good



ps. People with 18 month primes (or whatever it was) aren't the best ever. It's that simple.

[Jack Dempsey]

Yep. Someone with the heart of, say, Kenny Bugger would have a great chance. :good



ps. People with 18 month primes (or whatever it was) aren't the best ever. It's that simple.

Kenny Bugger KO4 Tyson:yep

[Luigi1985]

He's horribly overrated, The reputation of his opponents prop up his own reputation. The only reason his opponents have a reputation is for fighting him or fighting someone who fought him. they get a reputation because they're fighting Ali, and ali has a great reputation.

The 70's heavyweights are a perpetual self-contained hype machine, to mention they recieved a huge influx of hype from the media of the day. time has only seen their legend grow even more.

:smoke


Agreed.

[My dinner with Conteh]

"Hey Evander let's get it on you're my mandatory...oops Big Duggy has fucked me all up....hey Evander I'm back and bad again, let's get it on...oops I've hurt my thumb...hey Evander I'm champ again and you're totally shot let's get it on...oops you twatted the fuck out of me."

[My dinner with Conteh]

You prefer two fighters Ali beat over Ali? In fact he beat all but Berbick of who you named. And he was more shot than Tyson is now.

Anyone who landed a good shot on Tyson had him beat, as he never once got off the canvas to win, even as many times as he had a chance to.


You mean people actually hit him back? Yeah, but that doesn't count because Cus had died. :D

[My dinner with Conteh]

Tyson was 3 years past his prime by 1990, 9 years past ( plus prison) by 1996 and completely shot at 2000. :smoke


Great. Riddick Bowe had a two year prime too. Big deal.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Agreed.


So where does Ali rate at heavyweight then?

[Luigi1985]

But c´mon, MDWC, I know I AM LEGEND is a big Tyson-fan and overrates him a bit, but you as a normal Ali- fan should agree, that everytime someone says something negative about Muhammad, he gets called a hater, it´s really hardcore with Ali...

[Luigi1985]

So where does Ali rate at heavyweight then?


Top 50.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Doug jones and Cooper were robbed.



Irrelvent, tyson's defense and chin in his prime made him virtually impossible to knock down, his own juggernaut offense meant the fight was over before anyone could even check his chin. Tyson finishes what frazier and cooper started. :smoke



You make Bill1234 seem like he has an idea. :lol:

[McGrain]

Ali's the clear #1 for me. I want very badly top put Louis at 1. I don't like Ali. That's how i know i'm right, I guess.

[Luigi1985]

No, seriously, even the best (I have him at 2nd best HW ever) ever can´t be untouchable, everyone has/ had their weaknesses, but with Ali here on ESB it´s really almost funny...

[Luigi1985]

Well obviously, so are Louis, Holmes, Lewis, Marciano, Dempsey, etc. How high is the question.


Sarcasm.


1: Louis
2: Ali
3: Marciano
4: Jeffries
5: Lewis

[My dinner with Conteh]

A peak Tyson has a chance to beat Ali. I have come to that conclusion having thought of the match a bit recently.

I could use the same logic on you that Ali would do what Quick Tillis did, just a lot better.



What he does with Tyson fights is look at Boxrec and go by the judge who scored it for Mike by the biggest margin. He does this all the time. Even as I type I'm thinking of delaying it, as he'll say 8-2 vs Tillis (because one judge had it that). Just like his "Tyson lost one round" vs Tucker and "Tyson won every round" (vs Thomas).

[McGrain]

Sarcasm.


1: Louis
2: Ali
3: Marciano
4: Jeffries
5: Lewis

Jeffries at #4? I got him at #6 and have always felt that might be a bit to high...where do you have Johnson? I see them as a matching pair.

[My dinner with Conteh]

But c´mon, MDWC, I know I AM LEGEND is a big Tyson-fan and overrates him a bit, but you as a normal Ali- fan should agree, that everytime someone says something negative about Muhammad, he gets called a hater, it´s really hardcore with Ali...




You're right. The likes of Groove and CMC III are embarrassing.

[Luigi1985]

Jeffries at #4? I got him at #6 and have always felt that might be a bit to high...where do you have Johnson? I see them as a matching pair.


I don´t have a Top 15-list off-head, but I would say at 7th ca., and you?

[My dinner with Conteh]

only a delusional tyson hater could score that fight anything less than 7-3 for tyson. :smoke


Like the two judges. Yeah, they voted 4 rounds for Tillis because he was such box-office gold.

[Luigi1985]

You're right. The likes of Groove and CMC III are embarrassing.


Yeah, that´s what I mean...

[My dinner with Conteh]

You forgot Bill1234.

I'm going to keep a running tally of times he mentions Holmes in threads totally unrealted to holmes.



I was talking Ali fans in that post. But Bill1234 is probably worse than you you're right. ;)

[McGrain]

I don´t have a Top 15-list off-head, but I would say at 7th ca., and you?

#5. 7 is perfectly reasonable though.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Where do you guys rate Kenny Bugger? I'd say somewhere between Tony Musto and Danny McAlinden.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Yeah, that´s what I mean...



As an Ali fan myself and having a vast collection of books, mags, etc I have found some discrepencies with his story. My latest investigation involves the "gold medal in river" tale, of which, the earliest telling appears in the mostly dreadful piece of propaganda* that was the Richard Durham book in 1976. It's puzzling me why Ali would wait till that time to relay this story. :huh




* Although it does contain some nuggets. The Frazier conversation and Ali's writings to Betrand Russell among them.

[Luigi1985]

#5. 7 is perfectly reasonable though.


:thumbsup


You know it´s always hard making such a list... but with a 5th place I can live with... :yep

[Luigi1985]

As an Ali fan myself and having a vast collection of books, mags, etc I have found some discrepencies with his story. My latest investigation involves the "gold medal in river" tale, of which, the earliest telling appears in the mostly dreadful piece of propaganda* that was the Richard Durham book in 1976. It's puzzling me why Ali would wait till that time to relay this story. :huh




* Although it does contain some nuggets. The Frazier conversation and Ali's writings to Betrand Russell among them.


Very mindful from you, perhaps you noticed it, some months ago I had a long discussion with Clay II about some points (incl. the thing you mentioned now) and you know what a final answer I got? That I´m just an Ali- hater... :D

[JohnThomas1]

I see Conteh's kicking the usual ass.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Nice avatar mate. :good

[Jbuz]

Can you criticise Ali without invoking the wrath of the Ali lovers?? is he untouchable?

I see very few negative comments about the man and his career without there being a huge backlash.

Can he be criticised fairly and justly or is he just too damn good???

If anything Ali is a massive target for criticism. He cops a lot just because he is Ali. He has his defenders just like every fighter.

[McGrain]

As an Ali fan myself and having a vast collection of books, mags, etc I have found some discrepencies with his story. My latest investigation involves the "gold medal in river" tale, of which, the earliest telling appears in the mostly dreadful piece of propaganda* that was the Richard Durham book in 1976. It's puzzling me why Ali would wait till that time to relay this story. :huh

I'm quite happy that that story is BS.




* Although it does contain some nuggets. The Frazier conversation and Ali's writings to Betrand Russell among them.

That is golden. Isn't Frazier waring a lime green cowboy outfit during that conversation? That sure as shit didn't make it into the film.

[Jbuz]

No, seriously, even the best (I have him at 2nd best HW ever) ever can´t be untouchable, everyone has/ had their weaknesses, but with Ali here on ESB it´s really almost funny...

Oh geez get a clue. Ali gets a fuck load of criticism at ESB, way more than any other forum, or among experts etc. People feel they are somehow better for going against popular opinion, such as people ranking Robinson top 5 at best, or Ali the same (at HW). Just because you don't like Ali, doesn't mean that every time someone praises him you have to come out with these sort of comments - "but with Ali here on ESB it´s really almost funny".

I could make exactly the same argument about Marciano considering the nuthugging that goes on for him, but in reality he has plenty of critics too, just like Ali.

[JohnThomas1]

Nice avatar mate. :good

:D

[Luigi1985]

Oh geez get a clue. Ali gets a fuck load of criticism at ESB, way more than any other forum, or among experts etc. People feel they are somehow better for going against popular opinion, such as people ranking Robinson top 5 at best, or Ali the same (at HW). Just because you don't like Ali, doesn't mean that every time someone praises him you have to come out with these sort of comments - "but with Ali here on ESB it´s really almost funny".

I could make exactly the same argument about Marciano considering the nuthugging that goes on for him, but in reality he has plenty of critics too, just like Ali.


You´re now exactly like one of the posters MDWC mentioned. Just because I wrote, that some fans overact with him, and crank up the usual Ali- propaganda, doesn´t automatically mean that I don´t like him. The only thing I don´t like about Ali is, SOME of his nuthugging fans. Get it now? And to Marciano: 49-0-0, that´s all what it need to be said. He beat all challenges he had to fight, and he won always in spectacular fashion (never needed the judges, KO´d so many ranked fighters, etc.), he doesn´t need nuthugging (although there are also many like from every ATG- fighter)...

[Jack Dempsey]

Where do you guys rate Kenny Bugger? I'd say somewhere between Tony Musto and Danny McAlinden.

I'm feeling the love for Kenny Bugger MDWC:lol:

[Bummy Davis]

No ATG is above criticisim but there are a few that rise above the rest for different reasons,Ali was one of those but so was Louis,Marciano, Dempsey and a few others and they all had there weaknesses, Ali fans think that he could actually fly around the ring and was a superman but we know that he was human and suffers today from a long career and taking a lot of punches, anyway I think Ali is a must for anyones top 5

[McGrain]

Rocky is defeneded every bit as much as Ali I think.

[Luigi1985]

Rocky is defeneded every bit as much as Ali I think.


Mhmm, I don´t know. Just look here on ESB: Some here wrote, that Marciano would lose to SMW like Calzaghe or Mundine. A genius poster named Homicidal Hank said that every non shot +200 lbs black fighter would beat him, etc., I never read such things about Ali, so IMO with Muhammad it´s even worse...

[Jbuz]

You´re now exactly like one of the posters MDWC mentioned. Just because I wrote, that some fans overact with him, and crank up the usual Ali- propaganda, doesn´t automatically mean that I don´t like him. The only thing I don´t like about Ali is, SOME of his nuthugging fans. Get it now? And to Marciano: 49-0-0, that´s all what it need to be said. He beat all challenges he had to fight, and he won always in spectacular fashion (never needed the judges, KO´d so many ranked fighters, etc.), he doesn´t need nuthugging (although there are also many like from every ATG- fighter)...

Thanks for proving my point. :good

I didn't defend Ali once, and I didn't have a go at Marciano. But look at what you reply with. And for the record, everyone knows you don't like Ali.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I'm feeling the love for Kenny Bugger MDWC:lol:



I'm a Bugger Hugger and proud of it. :good



Back on the hugging subject. I don't want this one to unearth the beast that is Pepping It and Co, but posters that defend Duran for his 'no mas' has to be the height of all-time 'huggery' for me.*





* Running it close is CMC III scoring Ali a winner over Berbick. :yep

[Luigi1985]

Thanks for proving my point. :good


You´re welcome! :thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

I'm a Bugger Hugger and proud of it. :good



Back on the hugging subject. I don't want this one to unearth the beast that is Pepping It and Co, but posters that defend Duran for his 'no mas' has to be the height of all-time 'huggery' for me.*





* Running it close is CMC III scoring Ali a winner over Berbick. :yep

He probably scored also the Ali- Holmes fight as a draw until the stoppage from Ali´s corner... :lol:

[Jbuz]

You´re welcome! :thumbsup

Ahahahahahahaa

[Luigi1985]

Ahahahahahahaa



Laugh better about your comment...

[redrooster]

No fighter is I wouldn't say. It depends on the quality of the posters posting. Guys in the General Forum would never dare bash Ali, SRR, etc because they think it would damage their credibility, and they don't know enough about them. People with more knowledge of fighters realize there is more to criticize.

But what most even here don't seem to realize is that once studied enough, every fighter can be criticized.

Well said!

I face this same problem when I expose the talented but vastly overrated Ray Leonard. The man didn't have anywhere near the career Ali had though he did his best to parallel his accomplishments although against different opponents.

People in the classic section go to great lengths to defend him, fabricating even and just plain lying through their teeth while ignoring the obvious flaws.

I mean just today, you had some nut trying to debate with me that leonard stalled his career until he could no longer contain the urge to return to the ring all the while ignoring the fact that Leonard made it public that he nearly quit after his first tough fight with Willie Rodriguez and had to be talked out of retiring following his loss to Duran.

i says to myself "who the hell does this moron think he's talking to and what's his point in trying to debate someone he knows is not only only smarter than himself but more knowledgable about the sport?"

This is the kind of the knowledge you were referring to that allows me to freely criticize leonard while the groupies like John Thomas who is constantly afraid to say anything unpopular, will never speak his true thoughts. He's a man pleaser and because of this he never has anything valuable to share. He just plays follow the leader every single day.

As for Ali, he isn't above reproach but there's one thing you can't say which is he never ducked anyone and he never waited for another fighter to dry up into a complete shell. His style didn't really impress me all that much though.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I'm quite happy that that story is BS.



I have an interview from 1967 where Ali alludes to still having the medal. He described his future home as having a basement where he keeps all his "fight films, trophies and gold medal". But nothing to suggest he'd flung it. The river episode is not mentioned in Jose Torres' most fine Sting Like A Bee or in Larry Bornstein's 'effort' just called Ali either.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Rooster: legend. Even as one of his foes I have to admit that.

[Jbuz]

Laugh better about your comment...

I'm sorry that doesn't make sense.

I just find it funny that you replied with a defense of Marciano (after I didn't even say anything negative about him), after all of this talk by you of Ali "huggers" rushing to his defence at every opportunity. Hypocrit? Yes.

[Luigi1985]

I'm sorry that doesn't make sense.

I just find it funny that you replied with a defense of Marciano (after I didn't even say anything negative about him), after all of this talk by you of Ali "huggers" rushing to his defence at every opportunity. Hypocrit? Yes.


Don´t make you sillier than you perhaps are. You charged me indirectly as a Marciano- nuthugger, and I responded that his record speaks for itself...

[McGrain]

I have an interview from 1967 where Ali alludes to still having the medal. He described his future home as having a basement where he keeps all his "fight films, trophies and gold medal". But nothing to suggest he'd flung it. The river episode is not mentioned in Jose Torres' most fine Sting Like A Bee or in Larry Bornstein's 'effort' just called Ali either.

I'm pretty sure that he told Kram that he had "lost it" a long time ago. I belive that. If he still had it, that chick he's ended up with would have wheeled it out by now.

Joyce Carole Oats or whatever, she buys the original story hook, line and sinker, copy of angling time.

[Jbuz]

Don´t make you sillier than you perhaps are.

:huh

I don't speak jibberish.

You charged me indirectly as a Marciano- nuthugger, and I responded that his record speaks for itself...

I never implied you were a Marciano nuthugger, although I do think you are. I merely used Marciano as another example of a fighter with fans who immediately defend him at the first sign of criticism, which you subsequently substantiated.

Like I said. Hypocrit.

:roll:

[Luigi1985]

:huh

I don't speak jibberish.



I never implied you were a Marciano nuthugger, although I do think you are. I merely used Marciano as another example of a fighter with fans who immediately defend him at the first sign of criticism, which you subsequently substantiated.

Like I said. Hypocrit.

:roll:


OK, before you cry now, I apologize, I just do so if I wouldn´t have noticed your indirectly side blow...

[Dempsey1238]

But Marciano does get more smack than Ali though.

When people start saying super middleweights could beat the Rock. Than thats pretty bad. Thats almost like saying Tommy Burns or Harry Greb would beat Ali.

And have people all ready forgoting that Max Kellerman said that Robinson would beat Marciano, saying that Rocky WAS too slow, and Robinson too fast.?(He made that claim after Jones beat Ruiz.)

[ChrisPontius]

Some are way too far up Ali's ass, some aren't.
Even suggesting that a guy like Lennox Lewis or Wladimir Klitschko "could" give Ali trouble because he doesn't have the stylistic traits to easily solve them, like he didn't with Norton, you're a hater, etc.

It's okay though. When Michael Jackson was a bit past his prime and heading towards self-destruction in the mid-90's, my sister always started to scream , yell and cry whenever i critised him or made jokes about him having romantic dinners with 7 year old boys.

She was a bit more mature and reasonable than some Ali fans here.


When Ali passes away (and it might happen soon), i expect him to go on an unprecented undefeated streak in mythical fights here at ESB.

[groove]

Davis Miller author of Tao of Muhammad Ali said that Ali made the story up of throwing the gold medal in the river. I think he just lost it. But in Champions Forever he says he did throw it in the river. But the point he was making was true. He was asked to leave a cafe/restaurant in in his own town even tho he was Olympic Champ. No wonder he later made a stand against his own country fighting in Vietnam. Can't have equal rites in their own country but they expect you to be equal on the battle field fighting against some other country. It stinks.

[Luigi1985]

Davis Miller author of Tao of Muhammad Ali said that Ali made the story up of throwing the gold medal in the river. I think he just lost it. But in Champions Forever he says he did throw it in the river. But the point he was making was true. He was asked to leave a cafe/restaurant in in his own town even tho he was Olympic Champ. No wonder he later made a stand against his own country fighting in Vietnam. Can't have equal rites in their own country but they expect you to be equal on the battle field fighting against some other country. It stinks.



:tired

[My dinner with Conteh]

Davis Miller author of Tao of Muhammad Ali said that Ali made the story up of throwing the gold medal in the river. I think he just lost it. But in Champions Forever he says he did throw it in the river. But the point he was making was true. He was asked to leave a cafe/restaurant in in his own town even tho he was Olympic Champ. No wonder he later made a stand against his own country fighting in Vietnam. Can't have equal rites in their own country but they expect you to be equal on the battle field fighting against some other country. It stinks.



So he lied then. We know this now. Sad. :-(

[Stonehands89]

Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it.

2. He had a cruel streak. A vicious one. He had tendencies to promote the intra-race bias against darker skinned African Americans. Calling Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom and a gorilla is beyond classless.

3. He was a darling of too many referees who gave him assists in the 70s with his extra-legal allowances in the ring.

4. His style can be criticized rather easily.

5. He was naive enough to get roped into the Nation of Islam which was a bastardized, racist version of true Islam.

[McGrain]

He was a bit silly, too.

[Luigi1985]

Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it.

2. He had a cruel streak. A vicious one. He had tendencies to promote the intra-race bias against darker skinned African Americans. Calling Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom and a gorilla is beyond classless.

3. He was a darling of too many referees who gave him assists in the 70s with his extra-legal allowances in the ring.

4. His style can be criticized rather easily.

5. He was naive enough to get roped into the Nation of Islam which was a bastardized, racist version of true Islam.


I completely agree.

[zippy]

Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it.

2. He had a cruel streak. A vicious one. He had tendencies to promote the intra-race bias against darker skinned African Americans. Calling Joe Frazier an Uncle Tom and a gorilla is beyond classless.

3. He was a darling of too many referees who gave him assists in the 70s with his extra-legal allowances in the ring.

4. His style can be criticized rather easily.

5. He was naive enough to get roped into the Nation of Islam which was a bastardized, racist version of true Islam.


This is right I think. He isn't bulletproof. He was a great fighter, but I think it's a little much for any fighter to have a book named after him called "The Tao Of...." he's become too mythical.

[ChrisPontius]

He was a bit silly, too.

:lol:

[sthomas]

Criticism is all fine and dandy but to say the 70's was not a Golden Era for the division is taking things a bit too far. ATG Larry Holmes pulled out a split decision in round 15 from 34 year old Ken Norton in 1978. It was an ATG heavyweight fight. Norton was hardly the best fighter from the era: KO'd early in his career, KO'd by Foreman, KO'd by Shavers right after Holmes, but credit to Kenny he did give Ali Hell for 3 fights. Then there was Frazier, the underrated Jimmy Young, and on and on.

[Bill1234]

When Ali passes away (and it might happen soon)

IMO he has about 5-7 years left on this Earth. And when he does kick off...can you imagine how much Ali ESPNCLASSICS will show? Of course they will leave out 7 fights. The first one with Frazier, the first and last one with Norton (the 3rd one will show the gift decision), the one with Young (another one that will show he got lucky on the cards), and the ones with Holmes and Berbick (understandably).

[Bill1234]

And for the record, everyone knows you don't like Ali.

Damn him. The nerve of him for not liking the all mighty Ali. He should be banned for not liking him. :ban1

[My dinner with Conteh]

Damn him. The nerve of him for not liking the all mighty Ali. He should be banned for not liking him. :ban1



AT LAST!!!! An actual post where you haven't mentioned Larry Holmes. Party time!!!!


:happy :happy :happy :happy :happy :party :party :party :happy :happy :happy :happy :happy

[Bill1234]

AT LAST!!!! An actual post where you haven't mentioned Larry Holmes. Party time!!!!


:happy :happy :happy :happy :happy :party :party :party :happy :happy :happy :happy :happy

Ive done it before. I mentioned Hagler with out Larry once.:p

[My dinner with Conteh]

The inclusion of :vonnecunt has amused me no end. :lol:

[JohnBKelly]

Criticising Ali is ok, he was a pretty nasty feller sometimes in and out of the ring. He wasn't some kind of superman just an exceptionally talented boxer and a very tough man.

[Dempsey1238]

Criticising Ali is ok, he was a pretty nasty feller sometimes in and out of the ring. He wasn't some kind of superman just an exceptionally talented boxer and a very tough man.

Dont you know?? He was a superman. The man can walk on water, and cure cancer with his toe nails.

[Bill1234]

Dont you know?? He was a superman. The man can walk on water, and cure cancer with his toe nails.

He even cured him self of parkinsons, he just fakes it because he doesn't want people to know that he's that great. Its true.

[RoccoMarciano]

....fight was over before anyone could even check his chin. Tyson finishes what frazier and cooper started. :smoke

Then how can you be so certain he had an "iron chin"? :patsch:smoke

[zippy]

Shot tyson took the following things


Something near 500 punches against douglas before going down
Razor ruddock's best smashes without even blinking
Lennox Lewis took 8 rounds of using tyson like a punching bag before finally knocking him down.
11 rounds of punishment against holyfield without falling
A 25 punch volley against danny williams where he was completley lucid as he was counted out.


Tyson's chin was cast iron, he's one of the only heavyweights in history to never suffer a flash knockdown.



Good point about the flash KD's. When he went down, he usually stayed there.

[RoccoMarciano]

Shot tyson took the following things


Something near 500 punches against douglas before going down
Razor ruddock's best smashes without even blinking
Lennox Lewis took 8 rounds of using tyson like a punching bag before finally knocking him down.
11 rounds of punishment against holyfield without falling
A 25 punch volley against danny williams where he was completley lucid as he was counted out.


Tyson's chin was cast iron, he's one of the only heavyweights in history to never suffer a flash knockdown.

Maybe his chin got better with age.

[JohnThomas1]

Good point about the flash KD's. When he went down, he usually stayed there.

:lol:

[Jbuz]

Damn him. The nerve of him for not liking the all mighty Ali. He should be banned for not liking him. :ban1
Is that what I said? I was merely making a point.

Now fuck off Bill, I'm sure a Holmes thread is calling.

[RoccoMarciano]

Just like Everyone's favorite lennox lewis.

Only tyson was well past his best and required an immense beating to reach the canvas. Lewis require a light breeze to knock him to the canvas.
Rahman threw the hardest punch of his life in that one... it was hardly a light breeze.

[JohnThomas1]

Just like Everyone's favorite lennox lewis.

Only tyson was well past his best and required an immense beating to reach the canvas. Lewis require a light breeze to knock him to the canvas.

Pretty sure i remember Lewis standing over decimated Tyson to, oozing blood all over the canvas. I wanna thank Mr Lewis for the opportunity to make this money, i'd like to polish Mr Lewis in the hope for the opportunity for more money in a rematch, Mr Lewis is a great man and champ, Mr Lewis was the better man. My last ditch tactical weapon was nullified because he was simply too tall. That ears a hell of a long way up.

[JohnThomas1]

Rahman threw the hardest punch of his life in that one... it was hardly a light breeze.

There was no quit in Lewis either ;)

[Robbi]

Just like Everyone's favorite lennox lewis.

Only tyson was well past his best and required an immense beating to reach the canvas. Lewis require a light breeze to knock him to the canvas.

If ever a post shows an unrealistic and overexaggerated opinion its this one. "Lewis require a light breeze to knock him to the canvas". Rahman and McCall's right hands were no breezes, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs help.

Next you will be telling us Ali got up from Frazier's left hook during the closing stages of the 15 round, only because it was a breeze.

Lewis' chin was rather solid outside his two knockout defeats.

[JohnThomas1]

If i was a Tyson fanatic i'd be very decent in my criticism of others, Tyson is very likely the most easy to attack Heavyweight champ to ever lace a glove.

[JohnThomas1]

Jack Johnson is far easier to attack than anyone in history.

Well lets go Louis forward. I'll also add the proviso "great". Even Liston's safe.

[Robbi]

If i was a Tyson fanatic i'd be very decent in my criticism of others, Tyson is very likely the most easy to attack Heavyweight champ to ever lace a glove.

Spot on. He once carried an aura of invincibility on his shoulders, and was probably as popular and well known at his peak than anyone outside Ali. But looking back at his ring accomplishments, average. The way he won, knocking people out asap, does wonders for his career when people come to hold him in such high esteem.

[RoccoMarciano]

Jack Johnson is far easier to attack than anyone in history.
Oh yes, being a rapist, drug addict, woman beater etc etc is very hard to attack.

In the boxing ring he never beat a guy he coundn't terrify or bully. Once stood up to, tyson melted faster than soft ice cream in 120 degree F heat.

[JohnThomas1]

Spot on. He once carried an aura of invincibility on his shoulders, and was probably as popular and well known at his peak than anyone outside Ali. But looking back at his ring accomplishments, average. The way he won, knocking people out asap, does wonders for his career when people hold him in such high esteem.

His star shone bright, but burnt out pretty fast. The others, including Lewis, remained competitive and even best in the world long after Tyson had dwardled by comparison.

[Marciano Frazier]

Can you criticise Ali without invoking the wrath of the Ali lovers?? is he untouchable?

I see very few negative comments about the man and his career without there being a huge backlash.

Can he be criticised fairly and justly or is he just too damn good??? Well, there is also quite a bit of backlash by the fans of virtually any really famous fighter towards criticism of him and his ability. Some of Ali's fans are among the absolute most zealous and fanatical, though, and there will certainly be a bigger backlash than there is towards criticism of many other, less popular fighters.

[JohnThomas1]

Star bright, fuck no. Mike tyson was brighter than a fucking quasar.:smoke

And shorter than a cigar!

[RoccoMarciano]

Star bright, fuck no. Mike tyson was brighter than a fucking quasar.:smoke

Funny, I always thought he was stupider than a fence post :lol:

[Robbi]

My comparsion was far more apt. :smoke

Give me your top three heavyweights of all time.

[JohnThomas1]

My comparsion was far more apt. :smoke

Well yes, but you are a bit of a hugger, no?

:smoke

[JohnThomas1]

I prefer the term realist. :smoke

Of course you do, denial is always present in those that have the tightest hug.

:smoke

[Robbi]

Head to head or Legacy?

Just throw in all the ingredients that make a great fighter. Longevity, opposition, coming off the canvas, skill, etc.

[Robbi]

You are the one that is in denial, i have seen the glory of Mike Tyson and accept him as the best heavyweight ever and i accept that truth.

People cannot handle the truth.

:smoke

JT rates Tyson on what he merits, nothing to do with handling the truth. If he thought Tyson was the greatest heavyweight ever, why would he hide from the truth?.

[JohnThomas1]

You are the one that is in denial, i have seen the glory of Mike Tyson and accept him as the best heavyweight ever and i accept that truth.

People cannot handle the truth.

:smoke

And therein' lay the telltale signs and relentless reciting from the commune that is Team Tyson. Charles Manson eat your heart out, ya got nuthin.

[Robbi]

Because it goes against what he's been told all his life.

:huh

[JohnThomas1]

Because it goes against what he's been told all his life.

Don't think for a minute that i didn't buy into plenty of the hype. There was a time when i didn't doubt for a minute the call that he was or was going to be the most indestructable heavyweight in history. It looked entirely possible, even probable if you'd just put the book down :lol:

The fact is he didn't quite get there. Who's the best he beat? Holmes was past it and not as good as many others at that point. Spinks was a former 175. We've gotta look at Berbick. Maybe Rudduck. Nothing amazing.

[Robbi]

Don't think for a minute that i didn't buy into plenty of the hype. There was a time when i didn't doubt for a minute the call that he was or was going to be the most indestructable heavyweight in history. It looked entirely possible, even probable if you'd just put the book down :lol:

The fact is he didn't quite get there. Who's the best he beat? Holmes was past it and not as good as many others at that point. Spinks was a former 175. We've gotta look at Berbick. Maybe Rudduck. Nothing amazing.

The best heavyweights Tyson ever beat. Thomas, Tucker, and Ruddock.

Finished at 23, well that says it all really. Never had it in him to take tough fights throughout the 90's. He continually ducked Lewis, and took the easier route with Holyfield, or so he thought. The Holyfield fight was a bigger purse with little risk on paper.

[JohnThomas1]

Go watch tyson on film

Go watch ali on film.


Tyson looks far, far better.

I've got every Tyson fight available mate. Most of Ali too. Just pre exile Ali is the one i like. The latter version is sure not unbeatable. The Ali of around Williams/Terrell impresses me greatly. This for me is the greatest version. I take him over Tyson for sure.

[Robbi]

in 3 years, Tyson accomplished more than holmes in a way more fan friendly and dominating fashion. :smoke


Holmes never relied on intimidation and power. He had to beat opponents with skill and boxing ability, with the ocassional rough and tough stuff.

Holmes' durability surpassed Tyson's. And thats saying something, as Tyson himself could take a few heavy digs before going anywhere. Holmes got up off the canvas to come back and win while reigning over 7 years.

Everytime Tyson went down in a fight, guess what, he lost. Thats the truth, dont go into hiding now. :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

in 3 years, Tyson accomplished more than holmes in a way more fan friendly and dominating fashion. :smoke

There's merit there, but Holmes showed his inner fortitude many many times. We know Tyson could decimate non great opponents and damn decent ones, but when the chips are down vs the Holmes, Liston's, Lewis', Foreman's etc we cannot be fully sure he holds up. Rest assured these guys aren't going down without a fight.

[JohnThomas1]

You mean against Ernie " I'm sort of tall" Terrel and Cleveland " Jesus holy fucking christ ive been shot in the goddamned lung" Williams?


He'll, he doesnt even look that good there. Dreadfully boring stuff.

Tell me again Tyson's best win? To take your stance - Michael "I'm really a 175" Spinks, Trevor "i've been recycled 4 times" Berbick, Tony "i'll go the distance " Tucker, James "i'm huge, powerful and still scared" Smith or Pinklon "i'm 30 but going on 45 in drug years" Thomas. Rudduck didn't know if he was coming or going, sometimes i wonder if he was nuts.

[Robbi]

Holmes never fought a Great opponent, hell he fought barley any good ones. and he struggled terribly with a bunch of embryonic nobodies and Ernie " L KO5 Ron Stander" Shavers.

also,


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

How many times has that been posted by yourself on Eastside now?. Its becoming rather long in the tooth.

That would not have happened had it been the Holmes between 1978-1982.

[Robbi]

Noticed you said nearly. Tyson on the otherhand surpassed nearly. Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, and McBride. Down on his ass, and beaten.

[Robbi]

Yeah. Credit where its due. Only time Holmes was ever stopped.

Many times was Tyson stopped, five?.

[JohnThomas1]

The best heavyweights Tyson ever beat. Thomas, Tucker, and Ruddock.


Berbick has to be there, he beat a fine version of Thomas who in turn had beat Witherspoon and Weaver. I think the Berbick Tyson beat was in better fettle than the Thomas he beat. Berbick was also not one bit intimidated and Tyson was yet to prove he could peak the top level of the day. Berbick was an excellent win, especially considering how well he did it.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes never fought a Great opponent, hell he fought barley any good ones. and he struggled terribly with a bunch of embryonic nobodies and Ernie " L KO5 Ron Stander" Shavers.


Granted Holmes opposition was a bit thin.

[Robbi]

Berbick has to be there, he beat a fine version of Thomas who in turn had beat Witherspoon and Weaver. I think the Berbick Tyson beat was in better fettle than the Thomas he beat. Berbick was also not one bit intimidated and Tyson was yet to prove he could peak the top level of the day. Berbick was an excellent win, especially considering how well he did it.

Yeah Berbick is up there as well. Great performance from Tyson.

[JohnThomas1]

You mean Michael " I sent larry holmes crying home to his momma" Spinks and Trevor " Hacked to death with a machete because he was such a badass motherfucker" Berbick. as for Thomas, Cocaine is a stiumlant, just ask Pyror.

Larry was old and took Spinks for granted before outclassing him second fight. Holmes was running on 75% tho, and about 50% for Tyson. The best of Holmes would flog Spinks.

Thomas was a heroin addict early on.

[JohnThomas1]

Legend, don't frget to respect possible dial up users on the site, your use of multiple video (ridiculously so lol) will give them hell when loading a page. Might even be good if you could edit it down from the 30 or so images.

[JohnThomas1]

I need to make a gif of larry holmes crying like a little bitch after getting wtfpwned by the judges.

Interesting side not, i reached the maxmimum amount of times you can post the tyson-holmes gif in a single post.



Dial up users don't deserve the glory of the internet. Not to mention, it violates my artistic integrity to censor or edit my posts for any reason

No doubt you did lol.

I was a dial up user for years. Where i am took quite some time to get reasonable access to better service. Some in Australia will still be on it.

[Robbi]

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[JohnThomas1]

There's some real kick ass pics of Tyson.

One of the most interesting moments i have ever witnessed in boxing comes in the look on the face of Tyson when he looks up at Holyfield who had just dropped him for the first time.

[JohnThomas1]

None of those are even moving, they are obviously nothing more than photoshops. :smoke

Tyson sure wasn't moving

:lol:

[JohnThomas1]

I used to have a perfect picture for this situation.

It was a screen cap from an episode of the simpsons where they visit australia, and they recieve a letter with an australian stamp that says "Australia, 30 years of electricity"


TL;DR- Your country needs moar internets.

So Moar provides the best service? Never heard of em, personally

:smoke

[My dinner with Conteh]

There's some real kick ass pics of Tyson.

One of the most interesting moments i have ever witnessed in boxing comes in the look on the face of Tyson when he looks up at Holyfield who had just dropped him for the first time.



I could swear you heard him mutter 'No Mas' at that point.

[JohnThomas1]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:lol:

[JohnThomas1]

I could swear you heard him mutter 'No Mas' at that point.
He certainly may as well have :yep

[My dinner with Conteh]

Noticed you said nearly. Tyson on the otherhand surpassed nearly.


That's unfair. Cus had died. Rooney had left. Mike had a paper cut on his left thumb. One of the fights started at 10.10pm, Mike's 'least favourite' time, as he didn't like the clock angle. He got scared When the hands were facing opposite ways but a made a kinda 'V' shape: :|

[JohnThomas1]

That's unfair. Cus had died. Rooney had left. Mike had a paper cut on his left thumb. One of the fights started at 10.10pm, Mike's 'least favourite' time, as he didn't like the clock angle. He got scared When the hands were facing opposite ways but a made a kinda 'V' shape: :|

OMG

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[My dinner with Conteh]

Carlos monzon and all of your boyhood heros( and probably your parents) are still dead, attacking me wont bring them back to life. :smoke




[Only registered and activated users can see links]


:yikes :yikes :yikes

[JohnThomas1]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]


:yikes :yikes :yikes

You must be near the funniest fooker on the net, omfg hahaha

[Spman20999]

You prefer two fighters Ali beat over Ali? In fact he beat all but Berbick of who you named. And he was more shot than Tyson is now.

Anyone who landed a good shot on Tyson had him beat, as he never once got off the canvas to win, even as many times as he had a chance to.

What you say has some truth to it. But I have a question for you; why is Norton never mentioned despite the fact that he bested Ali?

Now I know officially he only won one of the three, but the third Ali Vs. Norton fight is still referenced as one of the bigger rip offs the sport has seen. The second fight could have gone either way, they give it to Ali? No problem! However the third fight was all Norton, it is pure BS that saw Ali the champion that day.

If Ali is "the greatest" than what does that make Norton? The "greater than the greatest"?

[My dinner with Conteh]

By the way, Legend, mum and dad are still going strong. How about yours? How are Brad and Mandy these days?

[JohnThomas1]

Nothing will be funnier than the time i pwned you with that Goatse PM. :smoke

Didn't you actually get banned for life for that?

If i was you i'd hardly be bringing it back up, you be out like Tyson vs Douglas.

Lucky i'm a kind hearted forgiving sort of guy

:yep

[My dinner with Conteh]

Which one's 'goatse'- the weight-lifter bloke?

[JohnThomas1]

Which one's 'goatse'- the weight-lifter bloke?

Worse, the guy holding his ass open lol. Disgusting. Sent it to me privately, i commented in a thread and common consensus got him banned - fast.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Aah, fuck. I know. Mike enjoyed that one.

[JohnThomas1]

Aah, fuck. I know. Mike enjoyed that one.

Rumour has it Tyso was standing behind, ready to rock & roll :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

which mike?



I also got banned for wishing cancer on some guy's mother.

One of my finest hours. :smoke

Sounds like a real sterling resume. You must be proud lol

[My dinner with Conteh]

Rumour has it Tyso was standing behind, ready to rock & roll :lol:



True. :D

[My dinner with Conteh]

i also told DavetheWave that he deserves to have his family sent back to him in pieces. :smoke:



File Under: Obvious lack of opportunity to have sex with girls.

[My dinner with Conteh]

which mike?


10.10 guy.

[My dinner with Conteh]

oh i get it.


Yawn, you limeys are so BORING. :dead



What really happened is that you tried to amuse international posters all night and was far less successful than me, even when I got up at 6.45am and you're still up late after yet another unsuccessful campaign to have sex with a woman.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I went out, played pool all night, came back, taunted some englishmen and now im getting ready to play some Team Fortress 2. as for the last part of the comment, One can only conquer so much in a single month. :smoke



Just the 'played pool all night' seems to denote no chicks. :good

[JohnThomas1]

:rofl

You'd prefer playing pool or pocket billiards to chicks?

:yikes

[My dinner with Conteh]

You'd prefer playing pool or pocket billiards to chicks?

:yikes




Talking of 'sessions'. December 8th promises to be an all-timer. A bit of a re-union with mates from London, as well as the core from down here. Out to town all day after the footy (including a few in Shavers bar and Johnny Stracey's local) then fight-party back at my house. A few illegals may make a return- just for old times sake. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Talking of 'sessions'. December 8th promises to be an all-timer. A bit of a re-union with mates from London, as well as the core from down here. Out to town all day after the footy (including a few in Shavers bar and Johnny Stracey's local) then fight-party back at my house. A few illegals may make a return- just for old times sake. :good

Jesus H! Sounds like a corker. What fights do you see being on the request list?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Jesus H! Sounds like a corker. What fights do you see being on the request list?



I don't think we'll get in till the undercard starts. It seems quite a good one, well, 'interesting' if nothing else (Lacy-Manfredo). Khan fights earlier in evening, then the big one starts, probably about 4.00am. :bbb :D

[JohnThomas1]

I don't think we'll get in till the undercard starts. It seems quite a good one, well, 'interesting' if nothing else (Lacy-Manfredo). Khan fights earlier in evening, then the big one starts, probably about 4.00am. :bbb :D

Ah i get ya. I miss the days when boxing was big here (Tyson days actually with Fenech active too) and we'd all go to the local and join the cheer. The last big thiong here was Mundine - Green, but i gotta say it was the biggest sport event at the pubs i have ever seen. Every pub with it in town packed. Plenty arrested later too, there wasn't much middle ground in this fight. I actually quietly hoped for and picked a Mundine win as i had met the man and he's nothing like he portrays, silly cunt.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Did you think it was an evening of old fight mate? Sorry no Page-Coetzee available that evening. ;)


Re: Mundine-Green. There's nothing bigger when it's a fight between two of your own countryman, it's great. The Benn-Eubank/ Bruno-Lewis events were huge. Even back in 1971 the coverage of Cooper-Bugner was as big as the Fight of the Century...Frazier even had to share the cover the following week with Aussie Joe. :good

[JohnThomas1]

Did you think it was an evening of old fight mate? Sorry no Page-Coetzee available that evening. ;)


That i did. I'm always behind with the present fights lol. Page - Coetzee, man what a *******. That final left hookercut! :shock:

Re: Mundine-Green. There's nothing bigger when it's a fight between two of your own countryman, it's great. The Benn-Eubank/ Bruno-Lewis events were huge. Even back in 1971 the coverage of Cooper-Bugner was as big as the Fight of the Century...Frazier even had to share the cover the following week with Aussie Joe. :good

Yeah spot on. Twas a huge pub i was at, 3 rooms and about 8 screens and you couldn't move in any of em. Only 3 blocks from home. Mundine has set himself up as a love hate thing with not many in between. You could have cut the air with a knife at times.

[Chaney]

I haven't read all of this thread, but I have read a lot about Ali.

I think Ali was an incredible human being. He was a remarkable athlete and man. He had awesome physical talent, willpower, guts, determination and courage. He was entertaining and witty. A born showman, who could light up a room. But it is ridiculous to try and make him into a saint.

His boxing record speaks for itself...he was, beyond any question a top five all-time great heavyweight. Most experts place him top one or two.

But as a man, outside of the ring, he did have serious character flaws.

He was very cruel to Joe Frazier, a decent man who had been a friend to Ali during his exile.

He was a member of a racist organisation who saw all white people as literal devils, and black people as either with them, or 'Uncle Toms'

He treated three of his wives very poorly, was unfaithful and hypocritical to them. He was a serial adulteror.

But on the other hand he could also be wonderfully kind and generous. He would sometimes take pity on people with nothing and hand them large amounts of cash. He was, and still is, caring and affectionate towards children.

And with all his flaws, the person he hurt the most was probably himself, with his gullability allowing him to be repeatedly robbed of his money and his desire to be in the limelight driving him to fight on far too long and sustain crippling injuries.

Somebody wrote that Ali had strong characteristics inherited from each of his parents. His mother, Odessa was gentle, kind and caring. His father Cash, could be a selfish, mercenary, street hustler type. This sounds a fair assessment of Ali to me. Like most of us, Ali had good and bad in him.

The best single overview of Ali is the Thomas Hauser biography. But read Mark Krams 'Ghosts of Manilla' for the darker side of Ali. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Chaney]

What you say has some truth to it. But I have a question for you; why is Norton never mentioned despite the fact that he bested Ali?

Now I know officially he only won one of the three, but the third Ali Vs. Norton fight is still referenced as one of the bigger rip offs the sport has seen. The second fight could have gone either way, they give it to Ali? No problem! However the third fight was all Norton, it is pure BS that saw Ali the champion that day.

If Ali is "the greatest" than what does that make Norton? The "greater than the greatest"?Ali didn't train hard enough for Norton, the first time round. He foolishly underestimated him. It was a competitive fight, despite Norton breaking Ali's jaw...but Norton won it fair and square.

The rematch, where Ali was fully prepared was still a very competitive bout. Ali had no excuses here: and Norton proved himself a good match against Ali. Ali got the nod, and most folk agree this was a fair verdict, but it was close.

Forget the third Norton fight. Ali should have retired no later than Manilla. Ali was shot here, hardly able to put a combination together. Norton got terrible advice from his corner before the last round where he was told to play it safe as he "already had it won." Ali knew it was close and gave it his all in the final round.

Most think it was close, but that Norton won it. Champions often get the benefit of the doubt in close fights. But this was a 'win' against an Ali on the decline.

Norton was a very good fighter. His style made him very good against boxers like Ali and Holmes who let him come forward. His style was not good against big punchers like Foreman and Shavers.

Overall, boxers like Ali and Holmes were greater than Norton, despite him giving them hell. Ali and Holmes proved they could cope with a greater variety of styles than Norton could.

But Ken Norton should not be overlooked...he was a true star of the 70s, who would give many ATG boxers a very tough evenings work...

[Chaney]

Ali is wide open for criticism for anyone honest...

1. His glorified stance on Vietnam was disengenuous. He didn't want to die, that was his actual grand reason. Ideologues made a hero out of him because of his celebrity status and the plain fact that they were against the war. Understandable of course... however, Ali's claim to be a devout Muslim who was forbidden to go to war is nonsense. He was anything but devout at this time of his life and his adulterous affairs demonstrate it. I think Ali was, and is, a devout Muslim in many ways. But there is no denying he had a weakness for the ladies as a younger man. He admits this himself, now.

Without saying if he was right or wrong to do it, I think Ali was brave to make his stand against the US Government in refusing to go to war. It is likely that he would have been protected, and not sent to the front line. Perhaps he would have put on exhibitions for troops, etc. He would have become the darling of the conservative media.

Instead he chose to become public enemy No. 1 and lose his heavyweight crown and his right to do what he loved to do most: to box. I don't think Ali was a coward. I think he was in the pocket of the Nation of Islam and did what they told him to do. If they would have told him it was OK to get drafted, I reckon he would have done so.

I agree Ali was lacking as a devout Muslim in his numerous adulterous affairs, but the Nation of Islam never criticised him for this, so he carried on doing it. (they did tell him to divorce his 'westernised' first wife, which he eventually did).

[Bill1234]

Is that what I said? I was merely making a point.

Now fuck off Bill, I'm sure a Holmes thread is calling.

:lol:

[Bill1234]

And shorter than a cigar!

:lol:

[Bill1234]

Funny, I always thought he was stupider than a fence post :lol:

:lol:

[Bill1234]

Of course you do, denial is always present in those that have the tightest hug.

:smoke

:rofl

[Bill1234]

You mean against Ernie " I'm sort of tall" Terrel and Cleveland " Jesus holy fucking christ ive been shot in the goddamned lung" Williams?


He'll, he doesnt even look that good there. Dreadfully boring stuff.

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl I can't stop laughing.

[Bill1234]

Holmes never fought a Great opponent, hell he fought barley any good ones. and he struggled terribly with a bunch of embryonic nobodies and Ernie " L KO5 Ron Stander" Shavers.

also,


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Oh yes, Holmes really struggled against Shavers. He didn't out box him at all. Hell, he even went down!!!

[Bill1234]

Berbick has to be there, he beat a fine version of Thomas who in turn had beat Witherspoon and Weaver. I think the Berbick Tyson beat was in better fettle than the Thomas he beat. Berbick was also not one bit intimidated and Tyson was yet to prove he could peak the top level of the day. Berbick was an excellent win, especially considering how well he did it.

He even made Tyson grimace with a body shot. I think it was a right uppercut to the solar plexus.

[Bill1234]

Larry was old and took Spinks for granted before outclassing him second fight. Holmes was running on 75% tho, and about 50% for Tyson. The best of Holmes would flog Spinks.

Thomas was a heroin addict early on.

Larry's speed was only a fraction of what it was in the Cooney fight, IMO his last peak fight.

[Bill1234]

None of those are even moving, they are obviously nothing more than photoshops. :smoke

Ok, you didn't like that, then here

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[Bill1234]

Tyson sure wasn't moving

:lol:

:lol: :good

[Bill1234]

I enjoyed watching I AM LEGEND get owned. It is gonna be a good day.:smoke

[Robbi]

riTcyE6OelA

Just been sent a home made video of "I am Legend" with his dog Tyson.

[RoccoMarciano]

Of course you do, denial is always present in those that have the tightest hug.

:smoke

Are you trying to tell us something about the toad, John? :lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

riTcyE6OelA

Just been sent a video from "I am Legend" with his dog Tyson.

:lol: He named that whining pooch well, didn't he?

[ron u.k.]

well i'm one of ali's biggest fans,but should he be above critisizm? hell no.

[red cobra]

Ali was of course, an alltime great, but any real criticism is strictly forbidden by the Ali nut-huggers that abound, particularly those that abound at ESPN and the Most High Priest of Ali Nut-Huggers, Thomas Hauser.

[red cobra]

Ali was fortunate in that he completely missed being around in his last days at the same time that Mike Tyson was at his peak. If he attempted a
comeback win against Tyson in his latter days like Holmes did, he would have been humbled just as Holmes was. It was far better that his last fight was against a Trevor Berbick instead. It isn't fair to judge Holmes on his lack of discretion and wisdom in taking that fight with Tyson, and I don't care if he did actually defeat Ray Mercer a couple of years later, he still had no business coming back against Tyson.

[Bummy Davis]

But Marciano does get more smack than Ali though.

When people start saying super middleweights could beat the Rock. Than thats pretty bad. Thats almost like saying Tommy Burns or Harry Greb would beat Ali.

And have people all ready forgoting that Max Kellerman said that Robinson would beat Marciano, saying that Rocky WAS too slow, and Robinson too fast.?(He made that claim after Jones beat Ruiz.)


I know, I can never call Max an expert, he is sports educated but he is an educated IDIOT and I have heard him time and time again sticking his foot in his mouth...he loves everything that sparkles

[ChrisPontius]

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Gotta love that Brittish commentary on Lewis' fights. You should hear them during the Lewis-Rahman rematch when the KO punch landed. Unfortunatly, Youtube recently deleted a shitload of boxing videos (including my own :twisted:) for copyright infringement so i don't think it's still on there.

[RoccoMarciano]

Gotta love that Brittish commentary on Lewis' fights. You should hear them during the Lewis-Rahman rematch when the KO punch landed. Unfortunatly, Youtube recently deleted a shitload of boxing videos (including my own :twisted:) for copyright infringement so i don't think it's still on there.

I'm pretty sure it's still on there, Chris, I watched it only a fortnight or two ago... for about the tenth time :)

[NickHudson]

Just rewatched an old favorite of mine "The Five Laws of Muhammad Ali."

Any of you guys seen it??

Henry Cooper hosts it "Those two cuts against Ali were the worst cuts in my career. He was a flicker and a long-puncher, he dragged and clawed at your flesh..."

Anyway, for those who haven't seen it, its a well put together package with a good blend of banter and footage.

It also supports the viewpoint that, as a fighter at least, there is very little meaningful criticism that can be applied to Ali.