Best chins ever, p4p [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

Luigi1985

11-17-2007, 11:49 AM

Fine choices. I'd throw Jim Jeffries into the mix. From the modern bunch Calzaghe deserves a mention.

Thanks. I thaught about both. But Jeffries faced almost only smaller men, that´s why I didn´t mention him in a p4p- list, where other fighters fought some weight classes above their natural weight and showed their iron chin, and with Calzaghe, well, if I would have made a Top 25-list, we would be in... :D

Manassa

11-17-2007, 11:49 AM

Tier 1

Marvin Hagler
Jake LaMotta
Jose Napoles

Tier 2

Kid Gavilan
Carlos Monzon
Tony Canzoneri

Tier 3

Ray Robinson
Ray Leonard
Muhammad Ali

Tier 4

Emile Griffith
Ike Williams
Alexis Arguello

Tier 5

Willie Pep
Joe Louis
Harold Johnson

Those would be my above average ratings. As you can see, there are very fine lines between separations.

Luigi1985

11-17-2007, 11:49 AM

Ray Mercer. In his prime the guy had a rock solid jaw. Watch him take flush bombs from Cooper, Morrison, and Lewis.

I also thaught about him, same with Calzaghe... :D

but definitely a very good choice...

McGrain

11-17-2007, 11:51 AM

Good work Manassa, I agre with Moore's high placing. Louis is to high though. What's your thinking there? Why is his chin better than, say, Mike Tyson's?

Minotauro

11-17-2007, 11:51 AM

Henry Armstrong even Fritzie Zivic and Battling Nelson deserve a mention.

JohnThomas1

11-17-2007, 11:51 AM

Monzon is surely tier 1.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 11:55 AM

Good work Manassa, I agre with Moore's high placing. Louis is to high though. What's your thinking there? Why is his chin better than, say, Mike Tyson's?

Ah, but Tyson's chin is better than Louis' ;)

I just removed Moore in place of Pep, although Moore stays in that tier.

I believe Louis was quite a durable fighter - more than his knockdown record would imply, at least. He was almost always up within a couple of seconds, and it took a hell of a battering for Schmeling & Marciano to take him out.

red cobra

11-17-2007, 11:57 AM

Monzon is surely tier 1.
I would think so, after 100+ fights and after reigning as middleweight champion for years and never having been stopped. That's tier one in my opinion.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 11:57 AM

Monzon is surely tier 1.

Not quite, a step below. Monzon was knocked down four times in his career to our knowledge and had his brains scrambled by a wicked Briscoe right - which is far more than Hagler had done to him. Monzon was tough as old boots and is only a hair behind, but a hair behind he is. You can argue that Napoles was floored three times in his career and was stopped - but he demonstrated an immense capacity for taking punishment in that loss to Monzon.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 11:58 AM

I would think so, after 100+ fights and after reigning as middleweight champion for years and never having been stopped. That's tier one in my opinion.

Do not confuse 'chin' with 'survival skills, defence, determination and resistance to cuts.'

UndisputedUK

11-17-2007, 12:00 PM

Chris Eubank, Steve Collins and Wayne Mcullough.

McGrain

11-17-2007, 12:01 PM

Chris Eubank is a great shout. Good luck knocking Eubank out.

Which tear for Eubank Manassa?

Manassa

11-17-2007, 12:02 PM

Chris Eubank is a great shout. Good luck knocking Eubank out.

Which tear for Eubank Manassa?

Durex.

McGrain

11-17-2007, 12:03 PM

Durex.

Uh huh.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 12:05 PM

Uh huh.

Sorry, 'deux.' Two. Tier two.

MagnificentMatt

11-17-2007, 12:06 PM

Robbi

11-17-2007, 12:06 PM

Oliver McCall

Robbi

11-17-2007, 12:08 PM

Manassa

11-17-2007, 12:10 PM

Left, now before everyone starts saying 'add this fighter, add that fighter... No this fighter? Got a lighter?' I will say that my list contains examples and examples only, and is not meant to be complete and comprehensive.

sthomas

11-17-2007, 12:10 PM

A couple more: Chavez ,before he was washed up he walked through a lot of big bombs. How bout Camacho, 85 fights no KO losses, great survival skills.

ChrisPontius

11-17-2007, 12:16 PM

Not really one of my favorites, but i think Bernard Hopkins deserves a mention. He has not been tested that well, but i believe he has only been down two times which is impressive nonetheless. It was surely impressive to see him take those bombs from Jones, who is a huge puncher at 160/168, without being hurt or staggered.

Oscar De la Hoya seemed to have a fine chin as well.

They're not in the league of a Hagler, LaMotta or Napoles, but outstanding nethertheless.

ChrisPontius

11-17-2007, 12:18 PM

Ray Mercer. In his prime the guy had a rock solid jaw. Watch him take flush bombs from Cooper, Morrison, and Lewis.

He's definitely up there. Took a shitload of punishement from an offensively-peak Wladimir Klitschko at the age of 41 before being stopped on his feet after only one knockdown. The knockout against Briggs seemed to be more of a quit job after a punch on the back of the head than a clean knockout.

Bill1234

11-17-2007, 12:24 PM

I will mention the obvious choices and ones that come to mind because I don't feel like thinking a lot right now.

George Chuvalo
Marvin Hagler
Olivar McCall
Tex Cobb
Jake LaMotta
Max Baer
Ray Robinson
Rocky Marciano
James Toney
Carmen Basilio
Larry Holmes (arguable)

MagnificentMatt

11-17-2007, 12:43 PM

How about David Tua.... surprised its taken this long for him to come up..unless i missed something..

My boy Mosley has a pretty good one, but i dont think it cracks the top 20 p4p list..(all-time)

MrSmall

11-17-2007, 01:33 PM

I think p4p is a bad way to judge chin, it's better to do it with opposition.
Otherwise there are few chinners who went up in weight and had solid beards.
Like Eubank and Toney, Toney would be first easy.

Stonehands89

11-17-2007, 02:18 PM

Manassa

11-17-2007, 02:31 PM

Barney Ross? Roberto?

I will say that my list contains examples and examples only, and is not meant to be complete and comprehensive.

!

Stonehands89

11-17-2007, 04:41 PM

!

I missed that post. Rare, because usually I read the total thread before jumping in. Apologies for being a nuisance.

Allow me to be a more adept nuisance.

1. Hagler, in my estimation, and judging from our previous discussions, perhaps in yours too, belongs in a class by himself. He didn't just take monster shots, they almost always weren't even acknowledged. Guys who stop what they are doing or just take the punishment (Tex Cobb. Chuvalo. Almost every other celebrated iron-chin who ever stepped into the ring) -just don't compare to that.

2. I'm unclear on why Napoles is an elite here.

Dempsey1238

11-17-2007, 04:44 PM

The Toy Bulldog needs a mention.

Ross was never counted out in nearly 80 fights, and that includes the beat down he got from Armstrong.

Minotauro

11-17-2007, 04:49 PM

A couple more: Chavez ,before he was washed up he walked through a lot of big bombs. How bout Camacho, 85 fights no KO losses, great survival skills.

I can't believe I forgot Chavez he truely had a great chin.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 04:50 PM

I'm unclear on why Napoles is an elite here.

He had a hell of a chin. Ever seen the Monzon fight?

My dinner with Conteh

11-17-2007, 04:53 PM

After Seales lost to Hagler in 1974, Boxing Illustrated asked him did he want to fight Marv again, he said: "yes, but I'll box more next time. No use trying to knock this guy out, his head's made of rock". :D

My dinner with Conteh

11-17-2007, 04:57 PM

As far as I know, Napoles was only legitimately floored in one bout: his TKO win over Carlos Hernandez.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 04:59 PM

As far as I know, Napoles was only legitimately floored in one bout: his TKO win over Carlos Hernandez.

Same (Hernandez was a wicked puncher as well) - although I've heard a rumour he was floored in at least one more. Might have been by the poster Mantequilla.

My dinner with Conteh

11-17-2007, 05:01 PM

Same (Hernandez was a wicked puncher as well) - although I've heard a rumour he was floored in at least one more. Might have been by the poster Mantequilla.

Well, he was given an official count against Stracey but that was a slip. Maybe Mantequilla has more info?

Manassa

11-17-2007, 05:03 PM

Well, he was given an official count against Stracey but that was a slip. Maybe Mantequilla has more info?

Wasn't that one, it was by someone else.

Stonehands89

11-17-2007, 05:04 PM

He had a hell of a chin. Ever seen the Monzon fight?

Sure did... and he took shots that rattled my teeth.

But he didn't see round 8.

Duran, slightly smaller than Jose, caught holy hell from Barkley who was arguably a bigger puncher than Monzon. And continued on. Barney Ross was never stopped and went down once against McClarnin and didn't even take the count. He survived Armstrong (although I suspect that there was an assist in that one)... damn near 80 fights.

Manassa

11-17-2007, 05:18 PM

Sure did... and he took shots that rattled my teeth.

But he didn't see round 8.

Duran, slightly smaller than Jose, caught holy hell from Barkley who was arguably a bigger puncher than Monzon. And continued on. Barney Ross was never stopped and went down once against McClarnin and didn't even take the count. He survived Armstrong (although I suspect that there was an assist in that one)... damn near 80 fights.

In Napoles' defence...

... Dundee pulled him out because of the punishment he was taking (it was round seven he didn't see though, although technically he didn't see round eight either).

And you know 'the' hook Barkley landed on Duran? Napoles took several punches like that in the sixth round alone by Monzon. Without looking at the tape I can distinctly remember three one-two-threes to the head that started off the whole assault, and a massive right hand shortly after that landed flush as Napoles was backed to the ropes. And that was only a third of it, he took another load like that as well yet was still standing at the bell. I should imagine a more youthful Napoles would have handled it even better.

Also, McLarnin was a featherfist in comparison to Carlos Hernandez, who had a right hand like Tony DeMarco.

My dinner with Conteh

11-17-2007, 05:20 PM

Dempsey1238

11-17-2007, 05:31 PM

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 06:30 PM

What´s your, let´s say Top 20 in no order? Here´s mine:

Muhammad Ali
Marvin Hagler
George Chuvalo
Rocky Marciano
Harry Greb
Jake LaMotta
Tony Canzoneri
James Toney
Duilio Loi
Panama Al Brown
Charles Burley
Vito Antuofermo
Sam Langford
Oliver McCall
Randall Tex Cobb
Mike Gibbons
Freddie Miller
Dave Shade
Jack Britton
Kid Gavilan

Perhaps I forgot someone...
I would replace marciano with chavez and camacho, they both have better chins.

Luigi1985

11-17-2007, 06:51 PM

I would replace marciano with chavez and camacho, they both have better chins.

Hard to say. But I agree that both, Camacho and JCC, would be also great choices.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:09 PM

I disagree. Chavez is on his level, but I wouldn't say Camacho is just because he was good at running away when he got hurt.
Camacho was never dropped his whole career and he took alot of punishment in fights where he was past his prime. Didnt marciano get dropped by smaller fighters like moore and walcott?

zippy

11-17-2007, 08:21 PM

Camacho was never dropped his whole career and he took alot of punishment in fights where he was past his prime. Didnt marciano get dropped by smaller fighters like moore and walcott?

Camacho was dropped three times. Reyes, Delahoya, and Trinidad.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:24 PM

Camacho was dropped three times. Reyes, Delahoya, and Trinidad.
Ok, my bad, how many times was marciano dropped though. Should i also mention that those 3 guys are all naturally bigger than camacho and he was way past it by then. Marciano was dropped by the smaller moore and walcott, am i not right?

Manassa

11-17-2007, 08:25 PM

Ok, my bad, how many times was marciano dropped though. Should i also mention that those 3 guys are all naturally bigger than camacho and he was way past it by then. Marciano was dropped by the smaller moore and walcott, am i not right?

... Marciano also ate a lot more punches than Camacho. Say the latter had better survival skills if you will, but Marciano had more raw durability.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:25 PM

Well that puts an end to Brownpimp's little theory.

Also, Brownpimp, as I said, ability to run and survive are not the same as chin. I have to stress that again.
Camacho has taken alot of flush shots, i would put him in a top 20 p4p chin for sure. Getting dropped when your 4 wieght classes above your natural weight, that shouldnt tarnish your chin at all. Getting dropped by smaller guys should.

zippy

11-17-2007, 08:26 PM

Ok, my bad, how many times was marciano dropped though. Should i also mention that those 3 guys are all naturally bigger than camacho and he was way past it by then. Marciano was dropped by the smaller moore and walcott, am i not right?

Well not really. Walcott outweighed him by over ten ounds, and Moore weighed the same, 188.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:27 PM

... Marciano also ate a lot more punches than Camacho. Say the latter had better survival skills if you will, but Marciano had more raw durability.
He didnt eat alot of punches from many heavyweights that were big and devastating hitters though, most of his opponents were well below the 200 lbs mark. As a heavyweight marciano had a very good chin, but p4p, i wouldnt say that.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:27 PM

Well not really. Walcott outweighed him by over ten ounds, and Moore weighed the same, 188.
Moore and walcott started out at smaller weights, lol. Is james toney a natural big guy, i mean he weighs 230 now.

zippy

11-17-2007, 08:29 PM

Moore and walcott started out at smaller weights, lol. Is james toney a natural big guy, i mean he weighs 230 now.

Walcott had been at that weight for years, and Moore had campained as a heavy for a while, and always had to dry out by then to get to 175. By that time, he was probably more comfortable at that weight. Toney is different. He ate himself out of his best weight.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:32 PM

Walcott had been at that weight for years, and Moore had campained as a heavy for a while, and always had to dry out by then to get to 175. By that time, he was probably more comfortable at that weight. Toney is different. He ate himself out of his best weight.
Yeah but as they go up in weight, thier chin decreases and thier punching power decreases. Bob Foster and Mike Spinks would be perfect examples. Trinidad was a welterweight, camacho was a super featherweight, getting dropped by him is not as bad as getting dropped by a guy that was light heavyweight champion when he fought you as a heavyweight.

zippy

11-17-2007, 08:38 PM

Yeah but as they go up in weight, thier chin decreases and thier punching power decreases. Bob Foster and Mike Spinks would be perfect examples. Trinidad was a welterweight, camacho was a super featherweight, getting dropped by him is not as bad as getting dropped by a guy that was light heavyweight champion when he fought you as a heavyweight.

to be honest I don't think the Foster and Spinks examples are good. Your talking about fighters there that were still natural to 175 and tried to pack on pounds in a hurry to try for the heavies. Of course that won't work as well as it would if you do it gradually and let it just happen because your body has to grow as you get older. There's a big difference there. That's what happened with Camacho. He wasn't a superfeather when he fought Trinidad, hadnt been for years. He was getting older and his body developed, as most do. Its unfair to call him just a superfeather then. He had been dominating lightweights, then junior welters along the way. Nice trick for a little 130 pounder.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:40 PM

to be honest I don't think the Foster and Spinks examples are good. Your talking about fighters there that were still natural to 175 and tried to pack on pounds in a hurry to try for the heavies. Of course that won't work as well as it would if you do it gradually and let it just happen because your body has to grow as you get older. There's a big difference there. That's what happened with Camacho. He wasn't a superfeather when he fought Trinidad, hadnt been for years. He was getting older and his body developed, as most do. Its unfair to call him just a superfeather then. He had been dominating lightweights, then junior welters along the way. Nice trick for a little 130 pounder.
When tito and camacho fought though, you could clearly tell who was the bigger man. Bob foster and spinks fought holmes, tyson, ali and frazier though, thats 4 of the best ever.

brownpimp88

11-17-2007, 08:42 PM

Again Brownpimp, ability to run and survive is not the same as ability to take a raw punch. I could say Mayweather has a better chin than Camacho because he was never hurt like Camacho or dropped. I could say Mayweather has a better chin than Gatti as well, though I'm not sure that's true, given the beatings I know Gatti has withstood.
Honestly, it depends on your definiton of 'chin'. Camacho is very fast, while marciano is significantly slower, obviously camacho is not going to just stand there to be hit. However i have seen him take flush shots throughout his career and i know he has a great chin. If you have speed, you use it to your advantage.

zippy

11-17-2007, 08:45 PM

When tito and camacho fought though, you could clearly tell who was the bigger man. Bob foster and spinks fought holmes, tyson, ali and frazier though, thats 4 of the best ever.

Tito was bigger than Oba Carr and Larry Barnes too. He was bigger than most.

I agree that Foster and Spinks weren't as effective heavier, but thats a totally different reason for that.

Luigi1985

11-17-2007, 08:49 PM

zippy

11-17-2007, 09:05 PM

I agree with brownpimp88, Camacho had a great chin, no doubt about that. But to be fair, you have also to say, that Marciano´s KD´s were flush and he wasn´t hurt, every KD doesn´t automatically mean that you´re hurt or so...

I agree; I think Camacho had a good chin, but it goes back to what Manassa said earlier about survival instincts. That and chin are a different thing. Camacho had both I think. I was just arguing about weight gain.

Luigi1985

11-17-2007, 10:21 PM

I agree; I think Camacho had a good chin, but it goes back to what Manassa said earlier about survival instincts. That and chin are a different thing. Camacho had both I think. I was just arguing about weight gain.

:thumbsup

Robbi

11-17-2007, 10:33 PM

SgrRyLeonard

11-18-2007, 12:19 AM

Marvin Hagler.

Joe E

11-18-2007, 06:30 AM

Maxie Rosenbloom

Joe E

11-18-2007, 06:31 AM

radianttwilight

11-18-2007, 10:08 AM

Monzon had zero power, therefore his fight with napoles should have no bearing on napoles chin.

Oliver McCall has the greatest chin of all time, he sparred hundreds of rounds against the greatest puncher in history without even getting rocked.

McCall is definately my pick.

Seriously, people need to WATCH Lewis-McCall II. McCall wasn't even holding his hands up during the "quit round", he took a RIDICULOUS number of right crosses from Lewis (who was throwing everything he had towards taking McCall out), a very hard puncher himself.

McCall was just walking around the ring taking clean shots to the head, and he wasn't even fazed.

Jack Dempsey

11-18-2007, 10:31 AM

We should get Zakman in here

Stonehands89

11-18-2007, 07:41 PM

In Napoles' defence...

... Dundee pulled him out because of the punishment he was taking (it was round seven he didn't see though, although technically he didn't see round eight either).

And you know 'the' hook Barkley landed on Duran? Napoles took several punches like that in the sixth round alone by Monzon. Without looking at the tape I can distinctly remember three one-two-threes to the head that started off the whole assault, and a massive right hand shortly after that landed flush as Napoles was backed to the ropes. And that was only a third of it, he took another load like that as well yet was still standing at the bell. I should imagine a more youthful Napoles would have handled it even better.

Also, McLarnin was a featherfist in comparison to Carlos Hernandez, who had a right hand like Tony DeMarco.
I had forgotten that Ross went down a few times against Garcia in '35... that demotes him. As for Napoles's chin -strictly speaking it was great, of that I have no doubt. My definition of a elite/great chin factors in more than yours however... Ross was never stopped but he went down -he's no Hagler. Napoles was stopped, and I detract points based on that -whether it was for cuts (damn near always the case with him) or his corner really doesn't rehabilitate the fact that he was stopped. I factor it against him in terms of chin.

In the last minute of the fifth, Napoles was stunned by a series of hard shots. He went backwards and stopped punching to regain composure. He took the shots, but he was stunned, if not hurt... in the sixth, yes, he was standing at the end, but he was hurt. I wouldn't put him at the top based on this fight.

...I do agree that the more youthful Napoles would have handled the Monzon onslaughts better but we would not have such a clear measure of his chin -you take more shots as you age because that mind's eye that prepares you for shots is based on reflexes and those diminish markedly in your 30s. All you have left eventually is chin and will.

Stonehands89

11-18-2007, 07:47 PM

But Barkley didn't hit Duran as many times on the button in such a short period of time as Monzon did with Napoles. He tatooed his face non-stop for two consecutive rounds. Ange Dundee pulled him out because he couldn't see out of one eye.

Round 7, Duran-Barkley. Barkley, facing the camera, wound up and nailed Duran flush with a left hook... then he winds up again and doubles it. Duran took these flush. Duran was taking monster shots in that bout that he shouldn't have. And don't forget he was a bit smaller than Napoles and Barkley was a bigger mann than Monzon.

I'd argue that Duran's chin was slightly better than Napoles... but neither are in Hagler's league.

Bummy Davis

11-18-2007, 07:58 PM

Lamotta,Hagler,Greb,Marciano,Maxim,Chuvalo,McCall

Manassa

11-18-2007, 08:06 PM

I had forgotten that Ross went down a few times against Garcia in '35... that demotes him. As for Napoles's chin -strictly speaking it was great, of that I have no doubt. My definition of a elite/great chin factors in more than yours however... Ross was never stopped but he went down -he's no Hagler. Napoles was stopped, and I detract points based on that -whether it was for cuts (damn near always the case with him) or his corner really doesn't rehabilitate the fact that he was stopped. I factor it against him in terms of chin.

Why? I thought you read the same lines as me when it comes to separating raw durability from the ability to survive; there are many factors; defence, reflexes, cut resistance, counter punching (discourages attackers), stamina etc... If I'm not mistaken, we are talking about pure 'chin.'

I don't think criticizing Napoles for being stunned against a heavy handed, larger fighter is fair. We never saw Hagler take light heavyweight punches.

Stonehands89

11-18-2007, 08:43 PM

Why? I thought you read the same lines as me when it comes to separating raw durability from the ability to survive; there are many factors; defence, reflexes, cut resistance, counter punching (discourages attackers), stamina etc... If I'm not mistaken, we are talking about pure 'chin.'

I don't think criticizing Napoles for being stunned against a heavy handed, larger fighter is fair. We never saw Hagler take light heavyweight punches.

Napoles was stopped 4 times in his career. Three because of cuts, one because Monzon landed too many concussive blows to his head. Napoles's inability to continue means to me that his chin was about to fail him, or that he was going to be hurt. Don't mistake me, he had a top chin, I just wouldn't put it up there with Haglers'.

"Chin" is the ability to take a punch to the face. It isn't literally the chin area -it includes the temple and cheekbones and the end of the jawbone under the ear -all the nerve centers. Cuts probably shouldn't count, but I can't help it. If you get stopped, you get stopped. Perhaps I am confusing the argument; I just can't say that I'd place Hagler at the top if he was stopped 3 times on cuts.

Great chins take monster shots. But the "best chins" don't acknowledge monster shots, the fighter doesn't skip a beat and the fighter isn't stopped -ever.

Manassa

11-18-2007, 08:49 PM

Napoles was stopped 4 times in his career. Three because of cuts, one because Monzon landed too many concussive blows to his head. Napoles's inability to continue means to me that his chin was about to fail him, or that he was going to be hurt. Don't mistake me, he had a top chin, I just wouldn't put it up there with Haglers'.

"Chin" is the ability to take a punch to the face. It isn't literally the chin area -it includes the temple and cheekbones and the end of the jawbone under the ear -all the nerve centers. Cuts probably shouldn't count, but I can't help it. If you get stopped, you get stopped. Perhaps I am confusing the argument; I just can't say that I'd place Hagler at the top if he was stopped 3 times on cuts.

Great chins take monster shots. But the "best chins" don't acknowledge monster shots, the fighter doesn't skip a beat and the fighter isn't stopped -ever.

Perhaps I am confusing the argument

I think so.

sweet_scientist

11-18-2007, 10:44 PM

We'd have a better understanding of who had a better chin between Napoles and Hagler if a past prime Hagler took some flush shots from cruiserweights, which is about equivalent to the natural 135-140 pound Napoles taking flush shots from the 160 pound Monzon.

sweet_scientist

11-18-2007, 10:50 PM

I have seen a good part of the fight with Armstrong, Ross did ok in the early part, before Armstrong just over swarm Ross, and started beating Ross around the ring. He did not let up. The film doesnt show Armstrong holding Ross up.
I agree. Having seen a good 30 minutes of the fight (as you have), I didn't notice Armstrong going any easier on Ross down the stretch. Of course I could be wrong, but from appearances, it didn't look like he went easy on him.

Manassa

11-18-2007, 10:55 PM

Well, Napoles was at his best at 147, so I don't see how he was more natural at 135-140.

Wrong. He certainly achieved the most at 147lbs, but was a small welterweight - at 140lbs he was a more fearsome, youthful puncher.

Robbi

11-18-2007, 11:12 PM

Wrong. He certainly achieved the most at 147lbs, but was a small welterweight - at 140lbs he was a more fearsome, youthful puncher.

How many fights of Naploes you seen at 140lbs?

Manassa

11-18-2007, 11:12 PM

A small Welterweight yet a champion at MW? Damn what a fighter. He never looked small at WW to me.

Although I will say, though I've never seen him at 140, I have heard from some he was perhaps even better there, the total package.

Napoles wasn't a middleweight champion, though you might have made a typing error.

Robbi

11-18-2007, 11:13 PM

Napoles wasn't a middleweight champion, though you might have made a typing error.

Yep, I was thinking the same. Monzon handed him his ass.

Manassa

11-18-2007, 11:21 PM

How many fights of Naploes you seen at 140lbs?

You know full well I haven't seen any, and neither have most other people (some limited rare footage exists) - I, just like others, go on what witnesses have said. That Napoles was better when he was lighter.

sweet_scientist

11-18-2007, 11:23 PM

I've seen his second fights with Adolph Pruitt and Al Urbina, and he looks much the same there as he did as a welter, just perhaps a tad quicker than in his welterweight days.

Robbi

11-18-2007, 11:24 PM

You know full well I haven't seen any, and neither have most other people (some limited rare footage exists) - I, just like others, go on what witnesses have said. That Napoles was better when he was lighter.

Was just curious. Kinda knew the footage of him from the 1960's at 140lbs was limited, but how limited I wasn't sure. Napoles against Pryor at 140lbs would have been a barnburner.

Manassa

11-18-2007, 11:28 PM

I've seen his second fights with Adolph Pruitt and Al Urbina, and he looks much the same there as he did as a welter, just perhaps a tad quicker than in his welterweight days.

... And we can guess his power and chin were slightly better relative to his weight. Fractionally more agile, had a tiny bit more stamina (less weight to carry)... All adds up though.

sweet_scientist

11-18-2007, 11:28 PM

You guys are on drugs not to have Chavez #1 or even mention him

It pays to read a thread before responding to it. But we must be on drugs to be able to do that.

sweet_scientist

11-18-2007, 11:30 PM

... And we can guess his power and chin were slightly better relative to his weight. Fractionally more agile, had a tiny bit more stamina (less weight to carry)... All adds up though.

That's true.

Robbi

11-18-2007, 11:30 PM

You guys are on drugs not to have Chavez #1 or even mention him

Fighters who get dumped on their ass don't get a mention among the top tier "best chins ever".

Robbi

11-18-2007, 11:39 PM

... And we can guess his power and chin were slightly better relative to his weight. Fractionally more agile, had a tiny bit more stamina (less weight to carry)... All adds up though.

Sometimes it doesn't all add up. Fighters have been known to move up a weight or two and increase speed. Mainly due to weight making difficulties more than anything else. Mosley was a fighter who jumped from lightweight to welterweight and he got quicker. Although he fought at lightweight throughout most of his 20's, it was always a struggle for him, always.

Napoles' case a different matter no doubt. He was probably always comfortable at 140lbs, but seen bigger purses 7lbs north. Hence, you stating he was a small welterweight.

Pat_Lowe

11-18-2007, 11:49 PM

Fighters who get dumped on their ass don't get a mention among the top tier "best chins ever".

Come on. Chavez did get dumped on his ass, 14 years into his career! It was also only a flash knockdown that was a flush right hand straight to his chin. In his peak years, he was one fighter that you'd guarantee to finish the fight, in fact I don't recall even seeing him wobbled. Definently worth a mention as one of the best chins ever.

Also I just watched Monzon-Napoles, wow. What a chin Napoles had. Those shots he took in the 5th and 6th rounds were enormous and he didn't go down! Great great chin.

Robbi

11-18-2007, 11:57 PM

Come on. Chavez did get dumped on his ass, 14 years into his career! It was also only a flash knockdown that was a flush right hand straight to his chin. In his peak years, he was one fighter that you'd guarantee to finish the fight, in fact I don't recall even seeing him wobbled. Definently worth a mention as one of the best chins ever.

Chavez had a great chin in his prime. But what seperates the great chins from the very good ones, not going down no matter what stage you are at in your career.

Chavez was dropped against Randall and Tszyu. It works against him.

I never said Chavez had weak whiskers, he just aint at the top of the tree.

sweet_scientist

11-19-2007, 12:04 AM

I think a fighter being hurt should be the gauge here, rather than whether he went down or not.

Going down can be caused from things like balance as well as being hurt.

E.g. Duran went down twice from Dejesus hooks, but he was never hurt in either case. I wouldn't hold it against him and claim his chin wasn't first class simply because he went down. It was more a balance issue than anything really, (though I'm not denying for a second that DeJesus had good power).

On the flip side, Hector Camacho didn't go down against Rosario, but his legs were trembling all over the place and he ran for his life to survive the fight. THAT to me shows a weaker chin than does Duran's getting dumped on his ass twice and coming back and resuming the attack.

Robbi

11-19-2007, 12:25 AM

Its not all about being hurt combined with the knockdown. Duran maybe wasn't hurt against De Jesus, but landing on his ass twice over the first two fights with De Jesus works against him. Thumping left hooks put him on his trunks.

The type of knockdown I don't take too serious, De La Hoya's against Whitaker. Slip/punch knockdown with no damaging effects. Some referees might have called it a slip. Action replays from above clearly showed De La Hoya's foot was giving way at the same time the punch landed. If the punch never landed, more than likely De La Hoya would not have went down. Correctly scored a knockdown.

Robbi

11-19-2007, 12:30 AM

SO if I fight 1 fight and don't get dropped or knocked out because im moving around the ring like Ali I have a great chin????.

:huh

Robbi

11-19-2007, 12:39 AM

By your logic against chavez SRL has an even weaker chin since he was TKO'd by a featherfisted puncher Camacho....

I ofcourse know that this was because of age but since you can't seem to consider that in chavez case why can you use it for SRL?

You really don't understand do you?. Chavez had a brilliant chin, but he was knocked down against Randall and Tszyu. Some other fighters don't get knocked off their feet, no matter if they are 25 and in their prime, or washed up at 35. Thats the difference between someone like Chavez and McCullough. Both had similar styles, they came forward and took two to land one.

Arguably McCullough fought harder punchers, even though he competed at lighter weights. I'd say Hamed and Morales, featherweight and super-bantamweight respectively, were bigger punchers in those divisions than any opponent Chavez faced in the divisions he fought.

Pat_Lowe

11-19-2007, 12:48 AM

You really don't understand do you?. Chavez had a brilliant chin, but he was knocked down against Randall and Tszyu. Some other fighters don't get knocked off their feet, no matter if they are 25 and in their prime, or washed up at 35. Thats the difference between someone like Chavez and McCullough. Both had similar styles, they came forward and took two to land one.

Arguably McCullough fought harder punchers, even though he competed at lighter weights. I'd say Hamed and Morales, featherweight and super-bantamweight respectively, were bigger punchers in those divisions than any opponent Chavez faced in the divisions he fought.

Rosario was one of, if not the biggest lightweight punchers ever. Mayweather was also a huge hitter. Not to mention De La Hoya, LaPorte etc etc. He faced some pretty big hitters

Robbi

11-19-2007, 12:56 AM

Rosario was one of, if not the biggest lightweight punchers ever. Mayweather was also a huge hitter. Not to mention De La Hoya, LaPorte etc etc. He faced some pretty big hitters

True. Probably Rosario comes closest. Hamed hits harder at featherweight than Rosario at lightweight though, IMO.

McCullough's chin never let him down when past his prime, the same can't be said for Chavez.

Remember, Chavez had an outstanding chin. Just not top bracket. I'm being very picky here, I know.

Pat_Lowe

11-19-2007, 01:05 AM

True. Probably Rosario comes closest. Hamed hits harder at featherweight than Rosario at lightweight though, IMO.

McCullough's chin never let him down when past his prime, the same can't be said for Chavez.

Remember, Chavez had an outstanding chin. Just not top bracket. I'm being very picky here, I know.

Understood. Top bracket consists of fighters like Hagler, LaMotta, Chuvalo, McCullogh, McCall? Fighters who were never floored? I would probably agree though that Hamed P4P hit harder then Rosario.

Stonehands89

11-19-2007, 08:09 AM

I don't think criticizing Napoles for being stunned against a heavy handed, larger fighter is fair. We never saw Hagler take light heavyweight punches.
Of course it's fair if we are talking about the ability to take shots. It affords us comparative ability.

I am not alone in confusing the argument. Determining "best chins" is a complicated matter and the more variables you factor in, the more confused it gets. Any argument that gets hypothetical here shouldn't be offered (ex. Hagler against a LHW) because it can go on forever.

If we simplify the argument by setting parameters, it would help. We should look at what was and resist hypothesizing.

1. Stoppage losses count, if it is the result of head trauma from punches, not for a dislocated shoulder.
2. Some leeway should be giving for the fighter who over ~35. By the same measure, the fighter who takes monster shots over 35 should get recognition.
3. A fighter was out of shape and got hurt, stopped or knocked down? It should count against him.
4. A fighter chose to rise in weight and fight a banger and gets hurt, stopped or knocked down? It should count against him.

Other variables to consider is how many bangers faced, shots landing flush, and the reaction when big shots from big punchers landed flush.

Sweet Scientist's assertion that being hurt but not going down should be considered sensibly is well-taken...

Stonehands89

11-19-2007, 06:51 PM

Ofcourse not moving up in weight should count against him.... Let say Chavez retired before randal, would we not say he had a legendary chin? Obviosly hypothetical factors do play in
If Chavez never went down in 90 fights, we would say he had a legendary chin. And there would be evidence to prove it, namely, that he never went down in 90 fights, and he fought a fair amount of good punchers -Rosario at the top of them.

To then second guess his standing by saying, "well, De La Hoya would have stopped him had they fought" would be balderdash.

Stonehands89

11-19-2007, 08:23 PM

Thank you... Finally someone with some sense..

Look im not saying Marvin did not have a great chin but as I stated in another chin list he did not move in weight and retired at 33 so to compare him with people that were in far more wars than him, did move in weight classes and did not retire that young is not fair..
Marvin's chin withstood
flush
shots
from
Hearns'
Right (uppercut and a cross) when
Hearns was fresh
and in his physical prime at 26 years old.

--If Hagler had one fight in his total career and accomplished that feat, it should still give you pause.

He also took shots from Mugabi -right on the sniffer and right on the kisser. Repeatedly. Nothing happened. His head steamed and he walked right on in. Throw in guys like Roldan, Lee, and Briscoe and Cyclone Hart who was murderous and you have to think this through.

Not many guys took shots better than heavier punchers.

I think he's earned the benefit of the doubt with hypotheticals.

Raging B(_)LL

11-19-2007, 09:30 PM

Marcos Villasana and Juan LaPorte deserve honourable mentions when discussing all-time great chins. I cannot recall ever seeing either man truly hurt or dropped by a single punch, and I have seen these two eat some absolute bombs over the years. Eder Jofre and Salvador Sanchez come to mind as well, both men had outstanding chins.

JohnThomas1

11-19-2007, 09:34 PM