Just watched Tunney/Dempsey II...

[Russell]

And Tunney was absolutely amazing at staying off the ropes. Truly.

All those backward miles must of made him into what he was in regards to that.

Anyone agree? Thoughts, opinions...?

[robert ungurean]

Tunney was a true boxing master.
Very unapreciated champion.

[captherp]

Dempsey should have been the champ after that fight. Just finished Ferdie Pacheco's book on his Greatest Rounds in boxing, and he has a lot of documentation about the time Tunney was on the mat (anywhere from 14 seconds to SEVENTEEN (according to The Ring Magazine's Nat Fleischer). He also noted that the referee (Barry) didn't start counting until Dempsey finally went to a neutral corner, but when Tunney later went on to knock Dempsey down, Barry immediately started counting while Tunney was hovering around behind him. Take a look at that fight again, and let me know what you think.

The impression I get from Pacheco's book (as well as people like Mills Lane, and others quoted on that fight) is that the referee was bought and paid for.

To answer your question, Tunney was good at movement. However, he should have lost that fight. I'm not sure what you mean about backward?

Tony

[McGrain]

Dempsey should have been the champ after that fight. Just finished Ferdie Pacheco's book on his Greatest Rounds in boxing, and he has a lot of documentation about the time Tunney was on the mat (anywhere from 14 seconds to SEVENTEEN (according to The Ring Magazine's Nat Fleischer). He also noted that the referee (Barry) didn't start counting until Dempsey finally went to a neutral corner, but when Tunney later went on to knock Dempsey down, Barry immediately started counting while Tunney was hovering around behind him. Take a look at that fight again, and let me know what you think.

The impression I get from Pacheco's book (as well as people like Mills Lane, and others quoted on that fight) is that the referee was bought and paid for.

Opinions vary on this one, but for me Tunney always knew where he was. He looked alert. To quote the man himself, "nine of the ten seconds a fighter is on the canvas belong to him." And those are how the ref counted them, not anyone else. I heard Tyson say Dempsey may have had an advantage in the follow up - maybe.

As to the variance in the counts, i've heard two therories. One, Dempsey and his manager had made enemies and the ref was in Tunney's corner. Two, Dempsey had famously destroyed Willard by hovering and it stuck in the refs mind (and the mind of anyone else who saw it). He was very keen to get Demspey to a neutral corner.

Bad refereeing - but terminal to the match? Not in my opinion.

[Dempsey1238]

Dempsey was up so dang fast in round 8, The ref did not have time to get Tunney to a netrual Coner, Had Dempsey stay down. Perhaps the ref would have stop counting. Dempsey was also well known for standing over guys. The Willard and Firpo fights makes a good point in that regard.

[salsanchezfan]

I was taken by Dempsey's rabbit punching in that fight.


As to the referee "being bought and paid for," I disagree. Dempsey knew the rules ahead of time for that fight, that the fighter scoring the knockdown had to go to a neutral corner. He didn't, simple as that. Going by the rules, the referee correctly did not issue a count until he was in that corner. I'm not sure what there is to argue here.

[Russell]

To answer your question, Tunney was good at movement. However, he should have lost that fight. I'm not sure what you mean about backward?Tony

He used to run miles backwards.

[captherp]

He used to run miles backwards.

That I didn't know. Thanks.

As to the rest, all I can say is that the referee didn't even look around to see where Tunney was before he started counting when Dempsey went down, which was a lot different than what happened when Tunney went down.

[achillesthegreat]

Tunney sure did have some good feet. He was a handful for Dempsey and I think he would be for many others like Marciano, Louis, Jeffries etc

[Icemmann]

I was taken by Dempsey's rabbit punching in that fight.


As to the referee "being bought and paid for," I disagree. Dempsey knew the rules ahead of time for that fight, that the fighter scoring the knockdown had to go to a neutral corner. He didn't, simple as that. Going by the rules, the referee correctly did not issue a count until he was in that corner. I'm not sure what there is to argue here.

If thats the case then the referee also incorrectly began counting when Dempsey was down without directing Tunney to a neutral corner.


Though I don't think it really had much effect on the outcome.

[captherp]

If thats the case then the referee also incorrectly began counting when Dempsey was down without directing Tunney to a neutral corner.


Though I don't think it really had much effect on the outcome.

Agreed. Hey Iceman, remember me? Good to see you.

Herp

[captherp]

Agreed. Hey Iceman, remember me? Good to see you.

Herp

Lemme rephrase that. Agreed to the statement about the referee began counting; I can't say for sure to the second one, because I think if Tunney had gotten up at a TRUE nine, Dempsey, whose tactic was to immediately swarm his opponent, would have slapped him around like a rag doll, personally.

[Icemmann]

Lemme rephrase that. Agreed to the statement about the referee began counting; I can't say for sure to the second one, because I think if Tunney had gotten up at a TRUE nine, Dempsey, whose tactic was to immediately swarm his opponent, would have slapped him around like a rag doll, personally.

Been a while since I watched the fight but Tunney looked ready to get up by around what would have been 6 or 7. When the ref was pushing Dempsey into the corner he just stayed down to take a breather.

Being the mover he was I think he could have run around for another 10 seconds avoiding taking anything that would have resulted in him getting his head cleared.

Nothing is certain but that would be my guess.

Don't remember you unless you were the guy that used to post in the lounge when I first joined. :think

[captherp]

Lemme just say your avatar takes me back a few years....

[salsanchezfan]

If thats the case then the referee also incorrectly began counting when Dempsey was down without directing Tunney to a neutral corner.


Though I don't think it really had much effect on the outcome.


..............No argument. But if that's the criteria one uses to conclude that a referee is in the bag, it's pretty dubious.

[JimmyShimmy]

Dempsey's heart was not in it at this time. In his training towards the bout he had as many off days as he did good.

Still, you'll notice he makes the rounds much closer in the second fight than he did the first. He was in better shape for the rematch, but he still commented about how easily he was winded and how his legs were slow.

Tunney was a demon. A super-precise boxer with all the intangibles. He trained like a robot and did very well to get up and control the rest of the fight like he did.

[achillesthegreat]

The Dempsey-Tunney argument is much like the Castillo-Hatton argument.

Many say Castillo was old but in all honesty can you see Castillo not tasting hell if he was ABSOLUTE prime?

Same for Dempsey, even if he is in his ABSOLUTE prime Tunney takes him to hell and back again.

[Duodenum]

To me, the key instant in Tunney/Dempsey II was the exchange that set up the Long Count, when Tunney jabbed, Dempsey canted his head to his left, and rammbed his "Iron Mike" from the other side of Gene's extended left to the temple, wobbling Tunney from ring center, to where Dempsey nailed him with his hook as Gene ricocheted off the ropes.

If the Dempsey of Toledo had been in there with Tunney, he would have been slipping Gene's jab repeatedly in that fashion, stunning him with that counter right, over and over. The version of Dempsey who dethroned Willard wouldn't have been barely grazing Tunney with the right-left-right combination he followed up that richocet hook with either, but would have landed all three of those punches flush on Gene.

Even in that situation, Tunney would have easily beaten Dave Barry's count, even if Jack retreated immediately to a neutral corner, but after continually knocking Gene silly, there would have been no choice left but to stop the contest.

[captherp]

..............No argument. But if that's the criteria one uses to conclude that a referee is in the bag, it's pretty dubious.

I'll add to that, using Ferdie Pacheco's book, The Twelve Greatest Rounds of Boxing, copyright 2000, Total Sports Illustrated, publishers, pp. 28-29:


The Untold Story

(Writer Roger Kahn, talking to Pacheco, begins) "The question is not only whether Tunney could have gotten up. If he had gotten up he would have been confused, and if you're confused in the ring with Jack Dempsey, it's all over."

Right at this point is where the background, the untold story, gets murky. The main culprit seems to be the referee, Dave Barry. Who was he? Why was he hired to work this important fight? Did he affect the outcome? Was he crooked? Was the fix in?

And what about Gene Tunney? Superficially, at least, he was an impressive, virtuous fellow, squeaky clean and intellectual. But did the substance match the surface?

In my interview with Roger Kahn, the writer disclosed that referee Barry had some skeletons in his closet, while Tunney's background included an unsavory relationship with organized crime.

"For a start," says Kahn, "we have Gene Tunney involved with the Philadelphia mob headed by 'Boo Boo' Hoff and his pals. Boo Boo was an ominous figure in those days. Al Capone in Chicago admired boxers, so he wanted to manage Dempsey, who had the common sense to decline Al's offer. Capone did not get mad, and remained heavily committed to Dempsey.

"Two referees were considered for the fight. Dave Miller, whom Benny Leonard considered the best in the country, was favored for the assignment. Word filtered down to Philly that Capone liked Miller, and that Capone was trying to fix the fight. At this point a second ref is mentioned: Dave Barry. Now, Barry is running a speakeasy in Chicago; this is something that Capone does not like, but anyway, the fact is that Dave Barry is operating outside the law.

"Where but in Chicago in the twenties," Kahn concludes, "could you have a hoodlum referee a world title fight."

The Long Count has been analyzed in every possible way. What has been overlooked, however, is Dave Barry's behavior in the next round, the eighth, when Tunney knocks Dempsey down. Where is Barry at that time? Right on top of Dempsey, counting "One..." as soon as Dempsey's rear end hits the canvas. And Tunney? Did he run to a neutral corner so that Barry could begin the count? Hardly, says Kahn: "Tunney was as close to a neutral corner as I am to Moscow. And this was not the only evidence of a biased ref. A referee has many ways to influence a fight; for example, on the break."

One of Dempsey's favorite tactics was to hit on the break -- as he was moving back out of a clinch, he'd pull the other fighter with one hand and sucker punch him with the other. Dempsey was fierce coming out of a clinch. He won an important fight with ex-champ Jack Sharkey by using his wits. Sharkey, hit low by Dempsey, turned to the ref in a clinch to complain, and Dempsey decked him. When criticized for hitting on the break, Dempsey deadpanned, "What was I supposed to do, send him a letter?"

In this fight, Dave Barry would grab Dempsey's right arm so that he could not punch or move the other fighter, in effect neutralizing Dempsey's infighting. All of these factors, along with the fact that Boo Boo Hoff had loaned Tunney a staggering $200,000, gave the fight its lingering piscine aroma. Tunney was no saint, and neither was Dempsey. Tunney never did explain his connection with Boo Boo Hoff. He didn't need to; there was no postfight investigation."


So as to just using how Barry counted over Dempsey to conclude he was probably crooked, Pacheco/Kahn add a few more things to the list.

As to this one by achillesthegreat:


Same for Dempsey, even if he is in his ABSOLUTE prime Tunney takes him to hell and back again.


I can't agree with that. Minus the long count, he might have gone on to beat Dempsey in this fight because Dempsey was getting up there in age, and had been through a lot of battles and trained little. However, in his prime, I think Dempsey could have ripped off Tunney's head and crapped down his neck, sorry. I still remember reading a story about Dempsey walking to his restaurant in New York when he was in his seventies, and two guys chose him as an easy mark to mug. One punch apiece had them on the ground waiting for the cops. Whether or not this proves he was a good boxer, for an around-75-year-old boxer to do that sort of suggests he had more than enough power forty years earlier.

In short, everyone's got their opinions, no one will ever agree on this fight, but I've offered a few more opinions here. Take them as you will. 8)

[captherp]

Note: I forgot to mention that (although perhaps many of you already know) that the quoted Roger Kahn is a Dempsey biographer, having written Flame of Pure Fire: Jack Dempsey and the Roaring 20's, in which he also says that, upon watching replays of that round in Dempsey-Tunney 2, when Barry IMMEDIATELY starts counting over Dempsey while Tunney is standing right there, "I am watching a crooked referee in 1927 Chicago."

[salsanchezfan]

I'll add to that, using Ferdie Pacheco's book, The Twelve Greatest Rounds of Boxing, copyright 2000, Total Sports Illustrated, publishers, pp. 28-29:



So as to just using how Barry counted over Dempsey to conclude he was probably crooked, Pacheco/Kahn add a few more things to the list.

As to this one by achillesthegreat:



I can't agree with that. Minus the long count, he might have gone on to beat Dempsey in this fight because Dempsey was getting up there in age, and had been through a lot of battles and trained little. However, in his prime, I think Dempsey could have ripped off Tunney's head and crapped down his neck, sorry. I still remember reading a story about Dempsey walking to his restaurant in New York when he was in his seventies, and two guys chose him as an easy mark to mug. One punch apiece had them on the ground waiting for the cops. Whether or not this proves he was a good boxer, for an around-75-year-old boxer to do that sort of suggests he had more than enough power forty years earlier.

In short, everyone's got their opinions, no one will ever agree on this fight, but I've offered a few more opinions here. Take them as you will. 8)



..............Nothing but conjecture. Not a shred of real evidence there. In the end, no one can say that Dempsey's knockdown of Tunney was handled outside the rules. And yes, he may have started a quick count on Dempsey when he was knocked down in the following round, but if one was to look back at referrees' performances over the years, there have been a hell of a lot worse transgressions, and no one calls them crooked.


Where in Phoenix are you from? I used to live there........

[captherp]

..............Nothing but conjecture. Not a shred of real evidence there. In the end, no one can say that Dempsey's knockdown of Tunney was handled outside the rules. And yes, he may have started a quick count on Dempsey when he was knocked down in the following round, but if one was to look back at referrees' performances over the years, there have been a hell of a lot worse transgressions, and no one calls them crooked.


Where in Phoenix are you from? I used to live there........

Central Phoenix, near 7th Ave./Missouri.

[captherp]

BTW, the fact that Tunney borrowed two hundred grand from a mobster ain't conjecture. If you watch the film, too, Barry is counting over Tunney REAL SLOW, and that is after the timekeeper was up to five before Barry starts counting.

[salsanchezfan]

Central Phoenix, near 7th Ave./Missouri.


.............I lived on 85th and Belleview in Scottsdale, near where the Motorola plant is/was. By the old Los Arcos Mall, which is defunct now, as I understand it.

[Mendoza]

And Tunney was absolutely amazing at staying off the ropes. Truly.

All those backward miles must of made him into what he was in regards to that.

Anyone agree? Thoughts, opinions...?

Yes. Dempsey was better trained the second time. Dempsey was by no means slow. Tunney's quick feet, stmaina, and mental focus didn't give Dempsey a chance to land much. Tunney knew the ropes and the corners would be his bane, so he boxed, and moved.

[captherp]

.............I lived on 85th and Belleview in Scottsdale, near where the Motorola plant is/was. By the old Los Arcos Mall, which is defunct now, as I understand it.

Yup, they tore it down, I think. Not sure what's in its place now.

BTW, I liked Salvador Sanchez too.

[achillesthegreat]

The excuses people come up with for Dempsey are like that of Liston for Ali. Dempsey, like Liston, is a great fighter but got he PIMPED...

...TWICE!