View Full Version : If you were a ref, would you let Hatton...
gallagher430
11-21-2007, 01:50 AM
hold like he does?
I just watched the Tszyu fight and started thinking about Hatton's style... I like Hatton a lot and hope he beats Floyd to a pulp, but I'm kinda split on whether or not he should be allowed to hold as much as he does. Part of me says that he doesn't really hold because he stays busy (sometimes) when he starts grappling with the guy. Then another part of me thinks that if he were allowed to hold like he does only half as much as he does, then his fights might be more interesting and have different outcomes. What are everyone else's opinions on this?
thewoo
11-21-2007, 02:12 AM
Absolutly not. Holding is bad enough. Holding and hitting is even worse.
See Me Flow
11-21-2007, 02:17 AM
Hell no!
PBF by UD! :D
4Rounder
11-21-2007, 02:17 AM
Yes, let the fighters fight at their full potential as their styles dictate but still within a boundary.
heidegger
11-21-2007, 02:25 AM
Yeah let him hold. And if that doesnt work, let him punch the nuts.
younghov2k4
11-21-2007, 02:28 AM
Hattons holding is very borderline. hard to say.
i know i wouldnt have let the Hopkins/Wright fight go like it did.
See Me Flow
11-21-2007, 02:30 AM
I see some hypocrisy going on here.
I wonder if those who say they would allow Hatton to hold feel the same way about John Ruiz?
gallagher430
11-21-2007, 02:32 AM
Yes, let the fighters fight at their full potential as their styles dictate but still within a boundary.
But is Hatton exceeding that boundary? I think that he should still be allowed to hold, but not nearly as much as he has been.
Druid
11-21-2007, 02:34 AM
Hatton and Ruis are two of the worst offenders with this style. At least a lot of Hatton's fight maintain excitement regardless. If I were a ref I would certainly not tolerate this style, the odd clinch is ok, but to have a style completely dependent on it is unacceptable.
One of the most interesting things about this matchup (Mayweather V's Hatton) will be to see who can impose their conflicting style on the other, each style in this bout is the antithesis of the other fighters.
Claypole
11-21-2007, 02:48 AM
Watch the Hatton V Castillo fight. It's actually Castillo that does most of the holding.
Hatton is not the worst offender. BHop has developed a whole fighting technique around hugging fighters, yet his name has not been mentioned. I wonder why?
gallagher430
11-21-2007, 02:55 AM
This isn't a Hatton hate thread or anything. I just think that he's a good representation of the style. No one ever said he was the one and only fighter that holds a lot, he's just the one being mentioned.
Strike
11-21-2007, 03:29 AM
People forget what Ali was like...go and watch Ali-Frazier II. I say this because everytime someone slates Hatton they are often someone who also raves about past greats they barely watched.
Hatton should be allowed to clinch like he did in the Castillo fight, it is broken up by the fighters within moments and is not simply tangling up to stop any action. He should not be allowed to clinch as he did in the first 4 rounds of the Tszyu fight. Hatton gets in close and the clinches are often 50/50 but he always looks to come out of them and with punching. To compare him to Ruiz who simply looks to stop action and not fight is ignorant beyond belief.
divac
11-21-2007, 04:19 AM
People forget what Ali was like...go and watch Ali-Frazier II. I say this because everytime someone slates Hatton they are often someone who also raves about past greats they barely watched.
Hatton should be allowed to clinch like he did in the Castillo fight, it is broken up by the fighters within moments and is not simply tangling up to stop any action. He should not be allowed to clinch as he did in the first 4 rounds of the Tszyu fight. Hatton gets in close and the clinches are often 50/50 but he always looks to come out of them and with punching. To compare him to Ruiz who simply looks to stop action and not fight is ignorant beyond belief.
Well said!
Alot of all-time greats like Roberto Duran have used the clinch within the realm of mounting an offensive.
If you look at old footage of Roberto Duran, he's often getting himself and out of clinches.
.....it works to his advantage because he's a good infighter.
John Ruiz is a whole different story altogether......as some have said here, he does'nt use it within the realm of mounting an offensive.
What John Ruiz does....he clinches, he stalls, and he keeps on with the clinch until the ref comes to break them up.
When you look at Hatton, he thrust himself foward punching, and if he happens to get himself out of position to continue his assault, he'll gladly invite a clinch and if possible, will look to fight himself out of the clinch.
......no such thing with John Ruiz!
divac
11-21-2007, 04:23 AM
Watch the Hatton V Castillo fight. It's actually Castillo that does most of the holding.
Hatton is not the worst offender. BHop has developed a whole fighting technique around hugging fighters, yet his name has not been mentioned. I wonder why?Bernard Hopkins employed the clinch almost to Ruiz like proportions against some of the bigger middleweights he fought.
.....one two clinch, one two clinch, one two three clinch.....etc........
to tell you the truth, his fights were borefest....Hatton is a much more exciting fighter.
Symphenyceo
11-21-2007, 04:27 AM
holding is illegal period!!!!!! should not be allowed
in this fight against mayweather the only chance hatton has of winning is to employ rough house tactics and spoil and maul mayweather as he did in the tszyu fight.
yep but you can have the other extreme where the ref in the roy jones v ruiz fight would not let ruiz rough the faster man up at all and made it into a amatuer type rules fight in effect.
divac
11-21-2007, 05:05 AM
yep but you can have the other extreme where the ref in the roy jones v ruiz fight would not let ruiz rough the faster man up at all and made it into a amatuer type rules fight in effect.
Exactly!
Ref Jay Nady psyched Ruiz in the dressing room instructions and continued his verbal assault throughout the fight.
.....anytime Ruiz got within clinching distance with Jones, Nady could be herd yelling instruction, "dont hold, dont hold!"
I was allright with Nady warning Ruiz that he would deduct points for exessive holding......but he went beyond that....he was on Ruiz the whole fight riding him not to hold!
.....and Nady is just a horrible referee when it comes to fighters clinching....he wont let the fighters fight out and close quarters, even when they're not even involved in a clinch......
.....I've seen Nady come in and break the action for just as much as the fighters touching shoulder to shoulder.:-(
If Nady is picked to ref Hatton-Mayweather, Hatton is screwed, because Nady does'nt tolerate alot of what goes on during infighting.
stuistylee
11-21-2007, 05:06 AM
Fuck no! Clinching is tolerated way too much in this sport and styles like what Hatton and Ruiz fight in should be completely eradicated.hear hear...
Jazzo
11-21-2007, 05:08 AM
holding is illegal period!!!!!!
Don't be so bloody naive. Clinching is a big part of boxing, and it is up to the referee to interpret the rules.
Cerberus
11-21-2007, 05:35 AM
A fighter should only hold in desperation. If they just got rocked and need to gather themselves by holding... fine. But holding as part of your fighting technique? :nono
Decebal
11-21-2007, 06:26 AM
I would not let Hatton use holding and grappling as his main game-plan. However, if he walks that line well, I would allow him to express himself completely in the ring. To ensure that he knows where that line is, I would have a quick chat with him before the fight and show him examples which he would get a warning for, from the Tszyu fight.
Polymath
11-21-2007, 06:48 AM
hatton would have been disqualified in his fight with Urango by a lot of referees. The last four rounds or so were nothing but clinching - not even he Ruiz jab and hold, just holding and spoiling continually. He also could have been disqualified agaisnt Collazo. I agree Wright/Hopkins was unwatchable; Hopkins is also one of the absolute worst offenders, not as bad as Hatton or Ruiz but close.
badger6
11-21-2007, 07:25 AM
holding is illegal period!!!!!! should not be allowed
So is an elbow to the throat, should be a point deduction for that shit !!!
Cookie
11-21-2007, 07:41 AM
Yeah I would. If you're attacking and then clinch I don't see that as being too bad. What I wouldn't allow is the carry-on that happened towards the end of the Urango fight. He was literally just leaping at the opponent and latching on. No punches even attempted. That is unacceptable.
i suggest lots of people watch jack johnsons old fights (spelling), or that footage.
clinching and josseling for position has always been a part of boxing.
infighting is a art in its own.
Dorfmeister
11-21-2007, 07:56 AM
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Hatton can close the distance and outwork Floyd in close, like Castillo did against Mayweather ( even though JLC grabbed with the left arm and nailed him with the right on the blind side of the ref), Fullmer and Basillio did against Sugar Ray, Duran did against Ray Leonard and even Ricky did against Tszyu but it's gonna be very, very hard for him even if the ref allows it... It takes a lot of energy from the aggressor and the other guy can counter short too:
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BewareofDawg
11-21-2007, 08:12 AM
Yeah let him hold. And if that doesnt work, let him punch the nuts.
Let him use a frigg'n baseball bat! Anything to get Floyd KTFO :rofl :rofl
Zhaakal
11-21-2007, 08:34 AM
The fuck i would... Once PBF scores with any punch i would jump in to save Ricky from a beating and call it a Floyd TKO 1 victory.
MacManJr.
11-21-2007, 08:50 AM
Absolutly not. Holding is bad enough. Holding and hitting is even worse.:deal :bbb
MacManJr.
11-21-2007, 08:52 AM
People forget what Ali was like...go and watch Ali-Frazier II. I say this because everytime someone slates Hatton they are often someone who also raves about past greats they barely watched.
Hatton should be allowed to clinch like he did in the Castillo fight, it is broken up by the fighters within moments and is not simply tangling up to stop any action. He should not be allowed to clinch as he did in the first 4 rounds of the Tszyu fight. Hatton gets in close and the clinches are often 50/50 but he always looks to come out of them and with punching. To compare him to Ruiz who simply looks to stop action and not fight is ignorant beyond belief.Ali only held when people got inside on him. He didnt charge at them and grab them.
knockout
11-21-2007, 08:58 AM
Hell yeah i would he gonna be running might as well make the match even.
boxbox
11-21-2007, 09:05 AM
only if the opponent keeps running...it might be the only chance theyd actually fight.
SKULLSPLITTER
11-21-2007, 09:38 AM
Hatton should have been DQed against Tszyu...but as you know...that wasn't gonna happen in Manchester with Hatton's favorite ref.
If I were the ref...I would warn about the holding and hitting 2 times...take a point for the 3rd infraction...take another point if he does it again...then DQ him if he continued...
That's the proper way to handle that offense.
badger6
11-22-2007, 05:36 PM
Hatton should have been DQed against Tszyu...but as you know...that wasn't gonna happen in Manchester with Hatton's favorite ref.
If I were the ref...I would warn about the holding and hitting 2 times...take a point for the 3rd infraction...take another point if he does it again...then DQ him if he continued...
That's the proper way to handle that offense.
Sort of like elbows to the throat and head !!!
Sheehan
11-22-2007, 06:14 PM
The fuck i would... Once PBF scores with any punch i would jump in to save Ricky from a beating and call it a Floyd TKO 1 victory.
is that to save pbf from the punishment he is likely to recieve if the fight went on.
Bodysnatcher
11-22-2007, 06:25 PM
Just of curiosity, how many fights in history have been stopped because a fighter was disqualified for too much holding?
psychopath
11-22-2007, 06:49 PM
Just of curiosity, how many fights in history have been stopped because a fighter was disqualified for too much holding?
Hmmmmmmmmm :think
None . . . that I know :huh :-( :D
bill poster
11-22-2007, 06:55 PM
After the Castillo fight everyone was complaining about Hatton holding- I watched rd 4 on Youtube and I really don't see Hatton doing any of that- in my view, Castillo was doing more, Hatton was just coming forward
Just of curiosity, how many fights in history have been stopped because a fighter was disqualified for too much holding?
Lewis/Akinwande comes to mind.
bill poster
11-22-2007, 06:57 PM
Oscar looked too predictable with his punches- Hatton will be much sharper, choosing his punches better
bill poster
11-22-2007, 06:59 PM
Lewis/Akinwande comes to mind.
Not many- usually because the fighter shat himself(akinwande)
Strike
11-22-2007, 08:10 PM
Ali only held when people got inside on him. He didnt charge at them and grab them.
Oh that is okay then.:roll: Fighters throughout history have clinched and spoiled, from Ali to Duran and so on....
Hatton usually attacks, clinches and then fights on the inside and back out again.
If he clinches like he did in the first 4 rounds of the Tsyzu fight or the last few rounds of Urango....penalise it.
If he clinches when distance is closed and fights out and works on the inside then that is boxing, if you you disagree then stop watching amateur fights and go buy some videos of the supposed "greats" from the past 50 years.
psychopath
11-22-2007, 08:15 PM
After the Castillo fight everyone was complaining about Hatton holding- I watched rd 4 on Youtube and I really don't see Hatton doing any of that- in my view, Castillo was doing more, Hatton was just coming forward
Ah ah . . . nah nah nah . . . not after the Castillo fight . . . after the Tszyu fight. :yep
cuchulain
11-22-2007, 08:30 PM
The rules forbid excessive holding, and it depends on what the ref considers excessive.
In general, Ricky has gotten away with excessive holding, especially by a British referee and a huge British crowd in the Tszyu fight, a fight he would have lost with most other refs.
Re: Divac's points on Ruiz.
I would be quite happy to have the ref taser the quiet man at the first indication that he was contemplating a clinch.
John belongs in WWF.
Nice guy, genuinely puzzled at the ire he draws, but he's BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD for boxing.
mike464
11-22-2007, 08:36 PM
Holding should not be allowed at all whether it's Ruiz, Hatton, Klitschko or anyone.
Symphenyceo
11-22-2007, 08:44 PM
Holding can not be part of a fight plan..if a boxer is hurt then ok but holding is not fighting on the inside
Marcus
11-22-2007, 08:45 PM
Running away shouldnt be aloud!!!!!
cuchulain
11-22-2007, 08:48 PM
Runner away shouldnt be aloud!!!!!
Running's no big deal.
You can run, but you can't hide.
mike464
11-22-2007, 08:49 PM
There's no rule against running. I have no problem with that because all you're doing is damaging your chances of winning the fight on points.
Marcus
11-22-2007, 08:52 PM
There's no rule against running. I have no problem with that because all you're doing is damaging your chances of winning the fight on points.
But if your a HBO fighter and a runner........you can never lose.
mike464
11-22-2007, 09:02 PM
The issue there is with the scoring then.
I think holding should be treated like low blows. First a warning, then second warning and then points get taken off.
Running should be penalised in the scoring.
Marcus
11-22-2007, 09:08 PM
you make good points mike :good
mike464
11-22-2007, 09:11 PM
It's no coincidence that last year's FOTY had a total of ZERO clinches in all 11 rounds.
markbrooklyn
11-22-2007, 09:18 PM
Exactly.. Holding should ONLY be allowed when a fighter is hurt. I don't know why people keep using the excuse of in fighting making it seem holding is part of in fighting, Just look at Castillo vs Corrales I and that's how infighting should be they didnt grab or clinch at all the whole fight so lets stop using the excuse that holding is part of infighting
Symphenyceo
11-22-2007, 09:23 PM
Exactly.. Holding should ONLY be allowed when a fighter is hurt. I don't know why people keep using the excuse of in fighting making it seem holding is part of in fighting, Just look at Castillo vs Corrales I and that's how infighting should be they didnt grab or clinch at all the whole fight so lets stop using the excuse that holding is part of infighting
Exactly:good
james toney vs jirov is a perfect example of infighting..holding is no part of infighting..when your holding your doing just that HOLDING not fighting
mike464
11-22-2007, 09:44 PM
I think a great move in the battle against MMA would be to ban holding and treat it like low blows. Every fight would be much more exciting.
Toopretty
11-22-2007, 10:51 PM
After the Castillo fight everyone was complaining about Hatton holding- I watched rd 4 on Youtube and I really don't see Hatton doing any of that- in my view, Castillo was doing more, Hatton was just coming forward
:lol::lol::lol: even the dumb ass HBO commentators knew Hatton was initiating the damned hold and when the ref came he ACTED like he didnt. He came forward and went under Castillos arm with his right arm every single time. Castillo just didnt let him grab him and toss him. If Hatton is grabbing you he is actually trying to push you off balance and hit you with a hook. That is what he does every time night in and night out. This is boxing and not the UFC. Balance is everything if somebody is grabbing you and pushing you, you are not focused on punching but regaining your balance to punch. Floyd has excellent balance even when being pushed or grabbed. If floyd sticks his elbows in hattons neck when he tries to do an unecessary clinch IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAMNED RING. I REPEAT HE CLINCHES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RING. Like in the Castillo fight or any Hatton fight its funny that only in his fights there are clinches in the MIDDLE OF THE RING. That is fucking obsurd. Anyone who seen Castillo fight more then 4 times knows there is hardly a clinch in the in-fighting unless the other guy is trying to get away from him a la mayweather fight.
Symphenyceo
11-22-2007, 11:39 PM
:lol::lol::lol: even the dumb ass HBO commentators knew Hatton was initiating the damned hold and when the ref came he ACTED like he didnt. He came forward and went under Castillos arm with his right arm every single time. Castillo just didnt let him grab him and toss him. If Hatton is grabbing you he is actually trying to push you off balance and hit you with a hook. That is what he does every time night in and night out. This is boxing and not the UFC. Balance is everything if somebody is grabbing you and pushing you, you are not focused on punching but regaining your balance to punch. Floyd has excellent balance even when being pushed or grabbed. If floyd sticks his elbows in hattons neck when he tries to do an unecessary clinch IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAMNED RING. I REPEAT HE CLINCHES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE RING. Like in the Castillo fight or any Hatton fight its funny that only in his fights there are clinches in the MIDDLE OF THE RING. That is fucking obsurd. Anyone who seen Castillo fight more then 4 times knows there is hardly a clinch in the in-fighting unless the other guy is trying to get away from him a la mayweather fight.
:good :good
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