View Full Version : Beating Kessler doesn't make Calzaghe an ATG!
Caliboxing
11-22-2007, 03:00 AM
Calzaghe can be an ATG but isn't yet. I would like to see him beat a few more fighters before I call him an ATG. The biggest name I see on Kessler's record is Mundine who is a good fighter but not great. The only other fighters I recognize are Lucas, Beyer and Andrade who are far from great. The rest of the fighters are average and most of us haven't even heard of them. Since I expected Calzaghe to beat Kessler long before they fought, I don't consider it such a great accomplishment.
psychopath
11-22-2007, 03:19 AM
It is a great exciting fight because Kesller is a real threat but that victory is not enough to propell him to ATG status yet.
Got to fight some big established names and beat them.
Jose FM
11-22-2007, 04:02 AM
DAMMIT im glad someone is fuckin telling the truth round here!
inchpunch
11-22-2007, 04:30 AM
His career as a whole does make him an ATG. Something that boxing fans overdo is to consider only wins over other ATG's as an accomplishment. To be unbeaten without a single questionable win is remarkable - how many ATG's have accomplished that?? Many fighters who are considered ATG's had dubious decisions in their favor or even losses against huge underdogs. Louis against Schmeling. Prime Ali struggled with the nobody Jones. Holyfield struggled against various lesser opponents and has some gift decisions in his record. Lennox Lewis lost twice to huge underdogs (I consider Lewis ATG Nr. 3 in HW) and ended his career with a dubious win. Calzaghe's fights never left a doubt as to who the better fighter was. Kessler was in his prime, in shape and is obviously a complete and dangerous fighter. In so many cases people discuss the meaning of a win because someone is past their prime or slightly out of shape. Kessler was at his absolute best, which counts at least as much as his career accomplishments.
Shake
11-22-2007, 04:59 AM
Of course he's already an ATG -- people underestimate how good Kessler was. A win over him means much more than outclassing Hopkins, Wright or Woods would mean at this point.
China_hand_Joe
11-22-2007, 05:05 AM
People are taling as though that was Calzaghe's debut!
What inchpunch said is correct.
t-worm
11-22-2007, 05:25 AM
Hi All,
Who would Joe need to fight to make him an ATG in your view?
He's basically a foot in for ATG status imo. But, he should fight Hopkins in a woulda shoulda coulda match. If he defeats Hop soundly, he deserves tons of respect. If he wins a close decision, or loses, then we need to rethink things. I think beating B-Hop should be the benchmark, even at this point of B-Hops career.
Hi All,
Who would Joe need to fight to make him an ATG in your view?
ATG already for myself and many others. But for the doubters...
I see 5 'choices'
Pavlik (If he wants to move up, which I doubt, and I don't blame him)
Dawson
Woods
Jones (If he beats Trinidad well)
Hopkins (If he grows a pair)
For me, any of these wins for Joe could be explained away all too easily and therefore do little to enhance his legacy.
Pavlik - was overrated. Who had he beaten other than a weight drained and crude Miranda and 'No Bad Intentions' Taylor.
Dawson - was too green and yeah, we overrated him I guess.
Woods - Ha! that British bum already got DOMINATED by RJJ remember?
Jones - Ok he beat Trinidad, but come on, we all knew he was pretty much shot.
Hopkins - Maybe he should have bought his zimmerframe to the ring and tried beating Joe with that instead.
.... Joe's legacy was secured a few weeks ago, and I hope (and think) that Kessler will pummel the SM division for the next few years to highlight this.
I wouldn't mind if he retires now. But I wont begrudge him chasing the mega buck fight before he does, he's earned it.
McGrain
11-22-2007, 06:02 AM
Two big fights against proven fighters would do it for me. What's been proven is that he has the type of quality that makes him comparable to the greatest fighters.
Meh, yeah. I expect him to beat guys like Hop, and Roy Jones at this point. Beating Jones at this point in his career really says nothing. Beating B-Hop, and schooling him, not pulling some Jermain Taylor gift on a close scorecard victory should seal his legacy. Yeah, Calzaghe was able to outbox a big, strong determined well schooled boxer puncher. But, can he defeat a savvy, well schooled junkyard dog who has the reputation of Hopkins?
I want to see Joe fight different types of great fighters to see where he really stands. Like, how do you compare Joe to Hopkins at this point of their careers? Well, Hopkins took on all sorts of different elite competition in his career, while Joe took on very good competition and one elite level fighter. While I think very highly of Calzaghe, I still feel he needs to take on another elite fighter. One huge win in an undefeated career is an underachievement imo.
Meh, yeah. I expect him to beat guys like Hop, and Roy Jones at this point. Beating Jones at this point in his career really says nothing. Beating B-Hop, and schooling him, not pulling some Jermain Taylor gift on a close scorecard victory should seal his legacy. Yeah, Calzaghe was able to outbox a big, strong determined well schooled boxer puncher. But, can he defeat a savvy, well schooled junkyard dog who has the reputation of Hopkins?
I want to see Joe fight different types of great fighters to see where he really stands. Like, how do you compare Joe to Hopkins at this point of their careers? Well, Hopkins took on all sorts of different elite competition in his career, while Joe took on very good competition and one elite level fighter. While I think very highly of Calzaghe, I still feel he needs to take on another elite fighter. One huge win in an undefeated career is an underachievement imo.
Eubank was far from shot
t-worm
11-22-2007, 06:16 AM
Thanks for the replies guys, B hop seems to be the man Joe wants. I am not holding my breath though.
Strike
11-22-2007, 06:55 AM
It is quite simple no matter who Calzaghe fights the American fans who are bias (not the level headed ones) will dismiss it.
I am seeing Pavlik and Hopkins mentioned and even Dawson. Dawson? Well sorry but Kessler has beaten more recognised names than Dawson...so just as with the Lacy fight and the Kessler fight where numerous people predicted Calzaghe to lose by KO this is how the predictions and reactions to a Calzaghe win would pan out on ESB home of the moron....
Dawson - will win by KO, a proper American fighter unlike anyone Calslappy has dared face.
Then Calzaghe wins - Huh Dawson was green, typical Calzaghe fighting someone who is not the finished article rather than a real US champ like Hopkins, Calzaghe is a joke.
Pavlik - Kelly by murder, Joe cant hurt him, Joe is too small and Pavlik hits WAY harder than Lacy, Kessler, Reid, Eubank etc.....
Then Calzaghe wins - Pathetic from Joe, ducks real competition at his weight and makes a fight with a middle weight, this proves nothing, what a fraud, who is next Joe Diaz???
Hopkins - Calzaghe has no chance, for once in his pathetic Euro Bum career he is facing a proper champion a real great and he will be exposed as the fraud he is when Hopkins takes him to school and then takes him down. This is going to be embarrassing.
Then Calzaghe wins - sickening move from Joe Calzaghe, there are young hungry fighters who would DESTROY him like Dawson and Pavlik, but what does he do? He fights a shot, way past it, almost dead old man. No surprise here he has never faced anyone at that peak other than frauds like Kessler and Lacy, everyone knew he would not have the balls to get whipped by Kelly and Chad.
And so on......
rusticraver
11-22-2007, 07:09 AM
Err world champ for 10 years, ducked by every top american fighter for years. 21(?) defences... Beat Eubank at a young age. Never even had a close fight since then.. Beat a prime strong opponent at 35... Totally individual style.. incredible punch volume... took the absolute piss out of the "new tyson" for 12 rounds..
Can't believe he still isnt rated as what he is.. one of the best fighters in last 20 years
Sure, some will just be Joe haters, regardless of what he does he is in a lose lose situation in the ignorance of some. But I'm impressed by Calzaghe and want to see him step it up a notch and take on fighters that have different skill sets to see how Joe stands on the ATG list. Its not just a matter of making the list, its a matter of his standings on that list as well. I'm a little hesitant to give him the nod for ATG status, thing is. He will make it, but he will be regarded much lower than Hopkins.
If However he takes Hopkins on, and wins decisively, I will be more than convinced he deserves to be ranked very highly.. That is all. People want to hate, I want to see just how good he is.
Strike
11-22-2007, 07:24 AM
Sure, some will just be Joe haters, regardless of what he does he is in a lose lose situation in the ignorance of some. But I'm impressed by Calzaghe and want to see him step it up a notch and take on fighters that have different skill sets to see how Joe stands on the ATG list. Its not just a matter of making the list, its a matter of his standings on that list as well. I'm a little hesitant to give him the nod for ATG status, thing is. He will make it, but he will be regarded much lower than Hopkins.
If However he takes Hopkins on, and wins decisively, I will be more than convinced he deserves to be ranked very highly.. That is all. People want to hate, I want to see just how good he is.
Aye I don't class you as one of haters, but someone like JoseFm...:lol:, it does not make a damn bit of difference who Calzaghe fights he will find a way to discredit it. The guy picked Kessler by savage KO and now Kessler is nothing compared to Pavlik.:lol:
Err world champ for 10 years, ducked by every top american fighter for years. 21(?) defences... Beat Eubank at a young age. Never even had a close fight since then Robin Reid.. Beat a prime strong opponent at 35... Totally individual style.. incredible punch volume... took the absolute piss out of the "new tyson" for 12 rounds..
Can't believe he still isnt rated as what he is.. one of the best fighters in last 20 years ever
Just a couple of errors I thought i'd correct. Otherwise :good
Ambition_Def
11-22-2007, 07:37 AM
I have to say that I disagree. ATG is somewhere that you absolutely have to start considering Calzaghe. He has beaten both the top guys in his division, and has been champion for a lengthy amount of time.
Please keep in mind who Hopkins beat during his lengthy title reign and he is considered ATG. Calzaghe beating both Lacy and Kessler is quite comparable. Especially considering how easily he won both.
jammerdk
11-22-2007, 07:49 AM
Joe's proven himself to me that's for sure......but ATG well actually don't like that term cause every decade has it's Champions, Styles, Super fights and that's way too hard a pick for me
a lot depends on how kessler performs the rest of his carreer if calzaghe retires as of now.
MancMexican
11-22-2007, 07:51 AM
a lot depends on how kessler performs the rest of his carreer if calzaghe retires as of now.
Agreed.
Also if Lacy goes on to great things then Joe will rise through the rankings.
Decebal
11-22-2007, 07:57 AM
It is irrelevant whether it does make Joe an ATG or not...even if it didn't, this wouldn't change the fact he would beat Hopkins, Dawson, Pavlik...
Since Joe signed to fight Kessler, he started to cement/enhance his legacy in big steps.
Now that he has beaten him and got recognition for his great talent and ability form everyone, including Americans, he can continue to cement/enhance his legacy in big steps - he can make the best fights now, whereas before, they were dodging him because he was unknown and a bad risk - whether enough to achieve ATG status or not is another discussion - and as long as he can do so, he should;
he can enhance his legacy by fighting the most dangerous and best live threats out there at 168-175...Dawson, for example...NOT have-been NAMES who are only resume trophy wins.
Boro chris
11-22-2007, 07:58 AM
Agreed.
Also if Lacy goes on to great things then Joe will rise through the rankings.
Agree x2! Kessler may well go on to great things, it just depends how he reacts to his first loss. As for Lacy, well he might've been ruined by Calzaghe. If he makes a sucess of the rest of his career he'll have to demonstrate enormous willpower!
drvooh
11-22-2007, 09:58 AM
Calzaghe can be an ATG but isn't yet. I would like to see him beat a few more fighters before I call him an ATG. The biggest name I see on Kessler's record is Mundine who is a good fighter but not great. The only other fighters I recognize are Lucas, Beyer and Andrade who are far from great. The rest of the fighters are average and most of us haven't even heard of them. Since I expected Calzaghe to beat Kessler long before they fought, I don't consider it such a great accomplishment. He's beaton them all...past and present....Eubank called him the best:patsch
drvooh
11-22-2007, 10:03 AM
It is irrelevant whether it does make Joe an ATG or not...even if it didn't, this wouldn't change the fact he would beat Hopkins, Dawson, Pavlik...
Since Joe signed to fight Kessler, he started to cement/enhance his legacy in big steps.
Now that he has beaten him and got recognition for his great talent and ability form everyone, including Americans, he can continue to cement/enhance his legacy in big steps - he can make the best fights now, whereas before, they were dodging him because he was unknown and a bad risk - whether enough to achieve ATG status or not is another discussion - and as long as he can do so, he should;
he can enhance his legacy by fighting the most dangerous and best live threats out there at 168-175...Dawson, for example...NOT have-been NAMES who are only resume trophy wins. It also seems that in the past, everyone who was gonna fight Joe, was gonna beat him...and when thay lost to Joe, instead of giving Joe credit, they called the ones he beat as overhyped....if Joe beats Hopkins/Dawson both, then woods, he's still not gonna get credit...they will be overhyped...old..inexperienced..overrated...etc :-(
It will do nothing for Joe to beat those old timers, he should meet Dawson
or give Kessler a remacth in Copenhagen!
Irish Steel
11-22-2007, 10:31 AM
No matter what Joe does, the americans will underrate him. Saying he only fought old bums and young noobs. BUt to me, he has already proven himself. He fought the toughest competition there was to offer, even when he was green himself, figting eubank. Fighting Lacy, who was supposed to "murder" Joe. It turns out he was just a great black hope. Then he fights Kessler. The second best in the division."If anyone can beat joe its kessler. He has the right style. WAAAAY harder punching"etc etc. Boy were they wrong.
Undefeated.Almost zero close fights.Holding the WBO belt for 10 years. Now unifying all the belts and fighting anyone that accepted his offer?
Thats an ATG in my book.
You will see what Kessler does in the future will make Calzaghe an ATG.
Steve Fox
11-22-2007, 11:26 AM
Despite Joe's masterful performance against Kessler, people are still going to be left short of examples when trying to illustrate his greatness. He has fought far too many fights that were completely pointless.
Of course he's already an ATG -- people underestimate how good Kessler was. A win over him means much more than outclassing Hopkins, Wright or Woods would mean at this point.:good
i dont care what anyone says, JC is an ATG in my book..... i mean, we have to remember, he is at the TAIL END of his career, and hes beating on guys like kessler?
true class....
i wish i could have been a fan when he was in his prime...
i still like kessler more, and after a few wins maybe they can have a rematch though i doubt jc would, and i dont blame him, no need to.
PH|LLA
11-22-2007, 01:40 PM
beating Kessler alone doesn't make him all time great but when you combine that with all his other accomplishments, its the definately tips the scale.
Alo2006
11-22-2007, 01:47 PM
Hey bud.
Calzaghe needs no one. Only pure testacle lickers think Hopkins resume is actually better and he's destined for HOF.
A bloated Wright.
Overated Tarver.
Undersized DLH.
Undersized Tito.
Loss to Jones.
You honestly believe Calzaghe wouldn't trounce these Jokers? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!! (except maybe Jones)
*keels over and dies of laughter*
Can't believe u are trying to argue resumes between Hopkins and Calzaghe :-( 4 out of 5 of those fighters will be HOF. Name 5 fighter on Calzaghe's resume that's better than Hopkins 5........................
Caliboxing
11-22-2007, 02:20 PM
It is irrelevant whether it does make Joe an ATG or not...even if it didn't, this wouldn't change the fact he would beat Hopkins, Dawson, Pavlik...
Since Joe signed to fight Kessler, he started to cement/enhance his legacy in big steps.
Now that he has beaten him and got recognition for his great talent and ability form everyone, including Americans, he can continue to cement/enhance his legacy in big steps - he can make the best fights now, whereas before, they were dodging him because he was unknown and a bad risk - whether enough to achieve ATG status or not is another discussion - and as long as he can do so, he should;
he can enhance his legacy by fighting the most dangerous and best live threats out there at 168-175...Dawson, for example...NOT have-been NAMES who are only resume trophy wins.
You are jumping to conclusions but if he beats fighters such as Hopkins, Pavlik, Dawson he will be one of the greatest fighters in my book.
scorpy
11-22-2007, 02:29 PM
Beating Kessler doesn't make Joe an ATG... right, but it sure helps. :lol:
Plus, consider the fact that he also beat Eubank, Reid, Mitchell, Brewer, Lacy, etc. that he has been a champ for more then 10 years and, you're pretty, pretty close to be an ATG.
Caliboxing
11-22-2007, 02:32 PM
Beating Kessler doesn't make Joe an ATG... right, but it sure helps. :lol:
Plus, consider the fact that he also beat Eubank, Reid, Mitchell, Brewer, Lacy, etc. that he has been a champ for more then 10 years and, you're pretty, pretty close to be an ATG.
I agree with that.
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