Prime Larry Holmes Vs Prime Joe Frazier???

[anut]

WHO WINS PRIME FOR PRIME.............. JOE FRAZIER 15 RD DEC.:smoke:smoke:smoke:smoke

[Bummy Davis]

Frazier by stoppage 12th

[Muchmoore]

Frazier by clear decision. Holmes wouldnt be able to keep up with his workrate.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes close UD15 after being dropped one or even two times.

[Woddy]

In my opinion, people read too much into the fight of the century when sizing up Frazier to Holmes. Ali was off for more than 3 years before fighting Joe, and would later beat him twice, despite being past his prime. Also, I don't think that Holmes was as susceptible to the left hook, the way that Ali was, and in fact, was far more vulnerable to the right. Frazier didn't have much of a right hand. I could also see Holmes blinding and frustrating Joe by constantly having his left hand extended in Frazier's face all night long. In addition, Frazier was vulnerable to the right uppercut as seen in the Foreman figtht. Now, I'm not going to try and make an argument that Holmes's uppercut was anything like Foreman's, but let's just say that it was lethal. If Joe lunged forward, and cornered Larry on the ropes, he would be wide open for that shot, and might even get floored. This would be a tuff fight for Larry, but I think he'd pull it off by a comfortable decision.

[Mendoza]

On the surface Frazier has the style advantage over Holmes. If we examine the tendencies the advantage is not as big as one would initially think. In fact the reverse is true.

Holmes himself was a good in-fighter with an uppercut ( works vs Swarmers ) and a great out fighter with a power jab that snapped heads back and a right cross that could finsh fighters. A hard jab makes it tough for the shorter man to get indside, and if the jabber can throw the right hand behind it, there will be some trouble. Ali made Frazier look easy to hit at times. So did Foreman. I don't think Holmes would have trouble at short ot long range landing on Frazier. Holmes certianly hit hard enough to floor Frazier.

In addition, Holmes was far stronger. Fraizer could be tied up in clinches. In the battle of the network stars, Frazier was embarrassed by non power athletes in a bar bell press. In fact I think Frazier was next to last in the event. While weight room strength is not punching power, there is a translation to weight room strenght and clinching. Ali had no problem clinching Frazier. Holmes could do the same.

The reason Fraizer did well vs Ali is Ali fell into this Frazier's trap by resting on the ropes. Ali did not go to the body much either to slow Frazier down. Holmes did not have Ali's low guard either which is how one gets nailed by hooks. Certain fighters are susceptible to certain punches. With Ali it was the hook, which Frazier had, with Holmes it was the right hand which Frazier did not feature.

Frazier to me did much better vs guys closer to his height...Ellis, Chavalo, Quarry. Frazier took taller fighters with solid skills like Bugner the distance. Frazier took a while to gain the lead and TKO Mathis. Holmes is far better than these two.

My best guess, Holmes TKO 9 over Frazier.

[Robbi]

China chin frazier beats the mediocre holmes.

China chin Joe and Mediocre Holmes are above Tyson in virtually everyones all-time great heavyweight lists. I'd comfortably say around 80% of people who are knowledgeable on boxing would put Tyson behind both.

Tyson was sublime for around 3 years against decent opposition then fell from the cliff face first. Finished at 23 years of age.

[Woddy]

On the surface Frazier has the style advantage over Holmes. If we examine the tendencies the advantage is not as big as one would initially think. In fact the reverse is true.

Holmes himself was a good in-fighter with an uppercut ( works vs Swarmers ) and a great out fighter with a power jab that snapped heads back and a right cross that could finsh fighters. A hard jab makes it tough for the shorter man to get indside, and if the jabber can throw the right hand behind it, there will be some trouble. Ali made Frazier look easy to hit at times. So did Foreman. I don't think Holmes would have trouble at short ot long range landing on Frazier. Holmes certianly hit hard enough to floor Frazier.

In addition, Holmes was far stronger. Fraizer could be tied up in clinches. In the battle of the network stars, Frazier was embarrassed by non power athletes in a bar bell press. In fact I think Frazier was next to last in the event. While weight room strength is not punching power, there is a translation to weight room strenght and clinching. Ali had no problem clinching Frazier. Holmes could do the same.

The reason Fraizer did well vs Ali is Ali fell into this Frazier's trap by resting on the ropes. Ali did not go to the body much either to slow Frazier down. Holmes did not have Ali's low guard either which is how one gets nailed by hooks. Certain fighters are susceptible to certain punches. With Ali it was the hook, which Frazier had, with Holmes it was the right hand which Frazier did not feature.

Frazier to me did much better vs guys closer to his height...Ellis, Chavalo, Quarry. Frazier took taller fighters with solid skills like Bugner the distance. Frazier took a while to gain the lead and TKO Mathis. Holmes is far better than these two.

My best guess, Holmes TKO 9 over Frazier.

This is basically what I said earlier, only in less detail.

Nice post:good

[Bill1234]

Holmes ud. IMO like someone or other already stated, they compare too much to the FOTC. Holmes didn't get hit with the left hook nearly as often as Ali, and he hit harder. He also went to the body. Frazier's bob and weave style would fall into Holmes's jab to the solar plexus. Frazier would duck down and get nailed in the face with it. This is by no means an easy fight for Holmes, but IMO its a bad style match up for Joe. He would also walk into Holmes's sneaky uppercuts. I see Holmes controling the early and late rounds with Frazier winning the middle rounds like he usually did.

[Bill1234]

Holmes close UD15 after being dropped one or even two times.

Why do you think Larry would get dropped? He didn't get hit with the left hook all that much.

[rekcutnevets]

If it makes it the distance it is only because of refs and drs not caring as much about the swelling of a fighter's face in those times.

Holmes by doctor stoppage now.

Holmes by decision then.

[JohnThomas1]

Why do you think Larry would get dropped? He didn't get hit with the left hook all that much.

Pretty sure Holmes was dropped by a hook at one time or another.

But more applicable, it's all about degree's. Prime Larry didn't face anyone with a left hook even remotely approaching Frazier's. Cooney's was totally different and Cooney couldn't apply pressure in the way Frazier could one bit. I'm predicting a distance fight, and nobody is going 15 with Frazier and not taking plenty of left hooks. Frazier's power with the hook is totally underrated now. I see this as a very very gruelling fight Bill, any boxer going 15 with Frazier is in for a torrid battle. I think at a stage or two Holmes could well visit the canvas. Frazier would be by far the best fighter Larry ever fought excepting Tyson when he way past his best. This fight would heavily feature the Holmes jab and uppercut vs Frazier's left hook and relentless pursuit to close the distance. Both would share center stage at numerous points of the war. Don't let anyone tell you Larry will simply be moving side to side and fending Frazier off with the jab all night. Not gonna happen.

[anut]

China chin frazier beats the mediocre holmes.

CHINA CHIN??????:rofl:rofl:rofl

[Robbi]

CHINA CHIN??????:rofl:rofl:rofl

He talks down every heavyweight apart from Tyson.

[Bill1234]

Pretty sure Holmes was dropped by a hook at one time or another.

But more applicable, it's all about degree's. Prime Larry didn't face anyone with a left hook even remotely approaching Frazier's. Cooney's was totally different and Cooney couldn't apply pressure in the way Frazier could one bit. I'm predicting a distance fight, and nobody is going 15 with Frazier and not taking plenty of left hooks. Frazier's power with the hook is totally underrated now. I see this as a very very gruelling fight Bill, any boxer going 15 with Frazier is in for a torrid battle. I think at a stage or two Holmes could well visit the canvas. Frazier would be by far the best fighter Larry ever fought excepting Tyson when he way past his best. This fight would heavily feature the Holmes jab and uppercut vs Frazier's left hook and relentless pursuit to close the distance. Both would share center stage at numerous points of the war. Don't let anyone tell you Larry will simply be moving side to side and fending Frazier off with the jab all night. Not gonna happen.

The only time Larry was dropped by a hook was when Tyson landed 5-6 hard shots flush and Larry went down (more so from off balance of the flurry) and was up at 3. I won't count the Butterbean fight because that was a BS call.

[BUDW]

China Chin? you must be kidding, Smoking Joe wins TKO 12 rd

[Jbuz]

Holmes via a very very close decision.

[JohnThomas1]

The only time Larry was dropped by a hook was when Tyson landed 5-6 hard shots flush and Larry went down (more so from off balance of the flurry) and was up at 3. I won't count the Butterbean fight because that was a BS call.

But this matters very little Bill, read what i type and explore new possibilities. Just because Larry wasn't dropped by a left hook vs the average opposition he happened to fight doesn't mean he won't be when the opposition turns to great. Frazier's hook is probably the best utilised hook in heavyweight history. Frazier is also very likely going to take Holmes into water deeper than he ever waded in his prime. Frazier retained his power thoughout a full fight as evidenced vs Ali 1. This is the Frazier that will be fighting Larry.

It's far from derogatory to think Frazier is going to have Holmes on the deck once or twice while still picking Holmes to win. I think he could survive as his instincts when hurt were brilliant and Frazier only had one real finishing wing.

[heerko koois]

Holmes on points [ud ]

[Holmes' Jab]

Holmes close UD15 after being dropped one or even two times.


Agree. It'd be very close. :good

[Mendoza]

Pretty sure Holmes was dropped by a hook at one time or another.

But more applicable, it's all about degree's. Prime Larry didn't face anyone with a left hook even remotely approaching Frazier's. Cooney's was totally different and Cooney couldn't apply pressure in the way Frazier could one bit. I'm predicting a distance fight, and nobody is going 15 with Frazier and not taking plenty of left hooks. Frazier's power with the hook is totally underrated now. I see this as a very very gruelling fight Bill, any boxer going 15 with Frazier is in for a torrid battle. I think at a stage or two Holmes could well visit the canvas. Frazier would be by far the best fighter Larry ever fought excepting Tyson when he way past his best. This fight would heavily feature the Holmes jab and uppercut vs Frazier's left hook and relentless pursuit to close the distance. Both would share center stage at numerous points of the war. Don't let anyone tell you Larry will simply be moving side to side and fending Frazier off with the jab all night. Not gonna happen.
JT,

Cooney's hook was a harder punch than Frazier's. Frazier tended to grind guys down with his hook. Cooney simply knocked them much quicker.

Frazier threw his hook in bunches when the other guys was on the ropes or in the corners. Holmes was no fool. He would not get caught resting on the ropes or in the corner.

As for the knockdowns, I think Frazier is more likely to go down than Holmes.

[JohnThomas1]

JT,

Cooney's hook was a harder punch than Frazier's. Frazier tended to grind guys down with his hook. Cooney simply knocked them much quicker.


Frazier's was a much better hook tho. Cooney's was a bit harder, but not in the same league delivery wise. Frazier's hook is also infinitely more proven vs much better opposition than Cooney's. Holmes, a good defensive fighter but certainly no Benitez reduced the threat Cooney's hook immensely. He barely got a flush one in. I will agree Cooney's is a bit harder, but i'll also bet there are Frazier victims that would have beaten Cooney. Cooney is levels below Frazier.


Frazier threw his hook in bunches when the other guys was on the ropes or in the corners. Holmes was no fool. He would not get caught resting on the ropes or in the corner.

Holmes got caught hard against much lesser fighters than Frazier. Joe wasn't no aimless plodder, he would definitely have moments of success cutting off Holmes and rapping him. Noway is Larry dancing for 15. There will be plenty of flatfooted fighting.

As for the knockdowns, I think Frazier is more likely to go down than Holmes.

I'm not sure about more likely, but you bring up a good point, one i'd been expecting to see a bit more of. It's quite possible Holmes can stagger or even stop Frazier. I'll stick to my scenario, but yours is entirely possible.

[teeto]

This would be a great fight. Even the best boxer finds it extremely difficult to keep Frazier away, its impossible . But Holmes was so great , anyone doubting his hart and calling him mediocre should just leave boxing . Look at the way he come back against Shavers. There wasnt a jab as good as Holmes' in HW history, and in terms of ringcraft he was of the very best p4p.
This would be one of the best fights ever. Frazier's pressure is so much it cannot be put into words. But Holmes would do what he had to do I think , boxing , and he would have to fight at some points of the fight. His hart showed against Shavers and Norton so he could fight. Holmes wins I believe. He was too great

[yancey]

I think Joe imposes his will on Larry and gets him out late, say about the thirteenth round.

[booradley]

I've always that that if Larry Holmes was a little older, he would have been right in the mix with Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and the rest from that era. Who wins this one is a really tough call. I think it's a pick-em fight.

Boo

[Sakura]

Holmes UD. Holmes had much better extension and he probably jabbing Frasiers head of.

[Duodenum]

Joe didn't engineer a particularly good strategy for Marvis in contending with Larry, who didn't simply give away bodyshots like Ali, and wasn't especially susceptible to the left hook. Joe also had a nasty tendency to swell around the eyes. Joe had a cataract in his left eye, and with Larry's jab pounding away on his right eye, Joe's sight might be compromised earlier than it was in Manila.

Larry's right uppercut was considerably more dangerous than Muhammad's, and I believe Holmes to be smarter than Ali, if not as physically gifted. I go back and forth over whether Larry would take a decision or late stoppage win.

[brooklyn1550]

Frazier close decision

[ChrisPontius]

But this matters very little Bill, read what i type and explore new possibilities. Just because Larry wasn't dropped by a left hook vs the average opposition he happened to fight doesn't mean he won't be when the opposition turns to great. Frazier's hook is probably the best utilised hook in heavyweight history. Frazier is also very likely going to take Holmes into water deeper than he ever waded in his prime. Frazier retained his power thoughout a full fight as evidenced vs Ali 1. This is the Frazier that will be fighting Larry.

It's far from derogatory to think Frazier is going to have Holmes on the deck once or twice while still picking Holmes to win. I think he could survive as his instincts when hurt were brilliant and Frazier only had one real finishing wing.

Right on. If Bill had a twin brother who grew up and trained in Frazier's gym in Philadelphia, you'd hear him say "But Frazier was never hurt by an uppercut from a boxer type of fighter without outstanding power, so Holmes couldn't hurt or drop him with it". Just because it never happened doesn't mean it can't happen.


I would go with Frazier by a hard fought decision. Holmes sweeps the early rounds but Frazier pours it on, fights his heart out, manages to drop Holmes in the 13th, but Holmes gamely survives to a close decision loss. I expect Frazier to take a lot of punishment though, Holmes may just win the rematch just like Ali did. But if you don't have the firepower to take Frazier out, you're in deep deep trouble.

[Bill1234]

I've always that that if Larry Holmes was a little older, he would have been right in the mix with Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and the rest from that era. Who wins this one is a really tough call. I think it's a pick-em fight.

Boo

He's the same age as Foreman, just started when he was 16, and didn't have the style or charisma to rush him to the top.

[Bill1234]

Right on. If Bill had a twin brother who grew up and trained in Frazier's gym in Philadelphia, you'd hear him say "But Frazier was never hurt by an uppercut from a boxer type of fighter without outstanding power, so Holmes couldn't hurt or drop him with it". Just because it never happened doesn't mean it can't happen.


I would go with Frazier by a hard fought decision. Holmes sweeps the early rounds but Frazier pours it on, fights his heart out, manages to drop Holmes in the 13th, but Holmes gamely survives to a close decision loss. I expect Frazier to take a lot of punishment though, Holmes may just win the rematch just like Ali did. But if you don't have the firepower to take Frazier out, you're in deep deep trouble.

But I wouldn't. I didn't rule it out, but I just don't see it being likely. If I had a twin brother that went to Frazier's gym, there would be a good chance he would have been shot dead by now. But other than that, no, he wouldn't rule out Frazier being dropped because he's never been dropped by a massive puncher. Ali had him pretty well hurt in the 11th of their 2nd fight (I think, I don't remember which fight or round).

[Bummy Davis]

On the surface Frazier has the style advantage over Holmes. If we examine the tendencies the advantage is not as big as one would initially think. In fact the reverse is true.

Holmes himself was a good in-fighter with an uppercut ( works vs Swarmers ) and a great out fighter with a power jab that snapped heads back and a right cross that could finsh fighters. A hard jab makes it tough for the shorter man to get indside, and if the jabber can throw the right hand behind it, there will be some trouble. Ali made Frazier look easy to hit at times. So did Foreman. I don't think Holmes would have trouble at short ot long range landing on Frazier. Holmes certianly hit hard enough to floor Frazier.

In addition, Holmes was far stronger. Fraizer could be tied up in clinches. In the battle of the network stars, Frazier was embarrassed by non power athletes in a bar bell press. In fact I think Frazier was next to last in the event. While weight room strength is not punching power, there is a translation to weight room strenght and clinching. Ali had no problem clinching Frazier. Holmes could do the same.

The reason Fraizer did well vs Ali is Ali fell into this Frazier's trap by resting on the ropes. Ali did not go to the body much either to slow Frazier down. Holmes did not have Ali's low guard either which is how one gets nailed by hooks. Certain fighters are susceptible to certain punches. With Ali it was the hook, which Frazier had, with Holmes it was the right hand which Frazier did not feature.

Frazier to me did much better vs guys closer to his height...Ellis, Chavalo, Quarry. Frazier took taller fighters with solid skills like Bugner the distance. Frazier took a while to gain the lead and TKO Mathis. Holmes is far better than these two.

My best guess, Holmes TKO 9 over Frazier.

the guys that had Holmes down and hurt Shavers was about a 1/2 an inch taller than Joe and Kevin Issac had him down, Nick Wells Ko'd Holmes 2 times in the amatuers and Nick was about 5"10 1/2, ok Frazier was more of a one handed fighter( the Hook was Ali's krytonite the RIGHT was Holmes) but he was still relentless and Tyson was about 5'10 1.2 AND HE ko'D hOLMES ( AN OLDER VERSION) so the knife cuts both ways

[Bill1234]

the guys that had Holmes down and hurt Shavers was about a 1/2 an inch taller than Joe and Kevin Issac had him down, Nick Wells Ko'd Holmes 2 times in the amatuers and Nick was about 5"10 1/2, ok Frazier was more of a one handed fighter( the Hook was Ali's krytonite the RIGHT was Holmes) but he was still relentless and Tyson was about 5'10 1.2 AND HE ko'D hOLMES ( AN OLDER VERSION) so the knife cuts both ways

Flash knock down. Larry stopped him shortly after.

[Woddy]

But if you don't have the firepower to take Frazier out, you're in deep deep trouble.

When did Ali have the fire power to take out Frazier? The fact is he didn't, but he still won 2 out of 3. Holmes actually had more power than Ali, and had the luxury of sparring with Frazier in his prospect days, which is an advantage that Ali didn' have either. Also, tell me when Holmes was ever dropped by a left hook? Ali was dropped by several. When was Ali dropped by a right? Rarely if ever. Holmes was floored by a few right handers. Get my drift? Ali and Holmes were nothing like each other.

[ChrisPontius]

But I wouldn't. I didn't rule it out, but I just don't see it being likely. If I had a twin brother that went to Frazier's gym, there would be a good chance he would have been shot dead by now. But other than that, no, he wouldn't rule out Frazier being dropped because he's never been dropped by a massive puncher. Ali had him pretty well hurt in the 11th of their 2nd fight (I think, I don't remember which fight or round).

I'm glad to hear you really care about your brother. :good
It was the 2nd round of the second fight, by the way. And Frazier was not nearly as hurt as Ali was on several occasions in their first fight when both were closest to their peaks.



When did Ali have the fire power to take out Frazier? The fact is he didn't, but he still won 2 out of 3. Holmes actually had more power than Ali, and had the luxury of sparring with Frazier in his prospect days, which is an advantage that Ali didn' have either. Also, tell me when Holmes was ever dropped by a left hook? Ali was dropped by several. When was Ali dropped by a right? Rarely if ever. Holmes was floored by a few right handers. Get my drift? Ali and Holmes were nothing like each other.


Ali did not have the firepower to take out Frazier and that's why Frazier gave him hell! He beat Ali when both were close their primes. Ali won the later two, but neither was an easy victory and Frazier slowed down faster than Ali because of his style. In other words, Ali was in deep trouble. Holmes is not as great as Ali. Frazier proved he can beat a great, master boxer. Holmes never beat a swarmer even close to the class of Frazier. That is not to say he couldn't, of course, but i'd take my chances with Frazier by a close decision in this one.

[Mendoza]

ChrisPontius I'm glad to hear you really care about your brother. :good
It was the 2nd round of the second fight, by the way. And Frazier was not nearly as hurt as Ali was on several occasions in their first fight when both were closest to their peaks.

Did the ref screw things up int he 2nd roudn when Ali buzzed Frazier? Someone here said he did.


Ali did not have the firepower to take out Frazier and that's why Frazier gave him hell! He beat Ali when both were close their primes. Ali won the later two, but neither was an easy victory and Frazier slowed down faster than Ali because of his style. In other words, Ali was in deep trouble. Holmes is not as great as Ali. Frazier proved he can beat a great, master boxer. Holmes never beat a swarmer even close to the class of Frazier. That is not to say he couldn't, of course, but i'd take my chances with Frazier by a close decision in this one.

I think Ali had the fire power to take Frazier out. Indeed hurt him in the 2nd match, and stopped him in the 3rd match. Holmes was better equipped to defeat a guy like Frazier. Holmes had a top uppercut, a better guard, rested less on the ropes, and mixed in body shots.

Frazier best and only dangerous weapon ( the hook ) was Ali's weakness. This weakness was magnified by Ali taking numerous breaks on the ropes. Holmes did not spend much time on the topes. Holmes also did not get caught by hook. In fact Holmes had the ability to take certain things away from fighters. Cooney's hook did not land much on Holmes, and it was harder and had more range than Fraziers.

Holmes fought and defeated a few attack dog type of fighters. Snipes, who was more durable than Frazier was comes to mind.

[JohnThomas1]

In fact Holmes had the ability to take certain things away from fighters. Cooney's hook did not land much on Holmes, and it was harder and had more range than Fraziers.


Taking away Cooney's hook, and taking away Frazier's hook should not even be mentioned together. Cooney never ever beat a name fighter anywhere near his prime. He was one of the most overhyped challengers in history. Awesome raw power but no command of even the basics. It's a pity he wasn't brought along properly, but even then he may not have had the temperment for long term boxing.

Holmes fought and defeated a few attack dog type of fighters. Snipes, who was more durable than Frazier was comes to mind.

Snipes was a hot and cold contender that wasn't really THAT good. A guy like Quarry would bust him up. I think you might be slightly underrating Frazier's durability. He was only ever stopped by Foreman, not exactly a disgrace. He was hurt a few times but Larry himself was dropped quite a bit and hurt many times. Both have very decent durability even if they hit the deck. I'd highly doubt Snipes was much more durable, Coetzee had him up and down like a yoyo.

[AREA 53]

Its one of those pairings which could go either way, and the balance may ultimatelty be tipped one way or other by as little as a dozen full blooded shots?? In the early rounds when fresh will Larry find time to compose and execute, and catch Joe coming in with some heavy Flush Right Crosses which might hymatoma Joe up and allow Larry to Build a landing pad for his heavy Jab, and those Cruder but effective Clubbing Rights Larry Employs when he feels the time is right to terminate proceedings ??

Or does This Prime Joe Suffocate Larry with his Extreme Pressure, Bobing Weaving and Jinking past Larrys Hurried Jabs, to Rip To body and Head in those Drilled Number sequences as Barked out by Yancey Durham 6-6-2 Body-Body-Head 6-2-2 Body-Head-Head….??
Both men are will warriors who will exceed their normal physical tolerance levels, the will to impose upon, and the will not to be imposed upon, which barring cuts, will probably ensure both paties will have to battle through the exhaustion barriers that this deadlocked mentality will indeed impose on each other's bodies, but as to these tariffs, they instinctively would agree with themselves to recognise the pain the hurt the trauma later…perhaps the next day,,in a dark room with dark glasses….but during their match their desire will fuel their bodies beyond natural resourse…

Larry would be Approx 211 -213lb with Joe Approx 207-209lb so no real advantage to Larry in that regard, and neither seems to me to be capable of taking out the other Early, unlike shavers or weaver Joe does not Plod Forward so Larry will not enjoy time to fully Compose and Execute and will have to move to Create his own Punching Room, and Larry whilst a highly capable mover, usually does it sprarodicly to break up the monotony, shake up some rythme, and generally when he wishes to move, he much prefers to settle into a slide to side and counter regime, with lots of standing off and always at a distence to suit himself, But Joe will not play ball with this, he will be seeking to hussle, bussle and Tussle Larry off Kilter and launching from a moving platform is always harder then from anchoured foundations, where Ali moves through seer exhuberance and perhaps a desire to Look Pretty at all times, Larry is not adverse to winning ugly, so unlike a the rusty Ali, Larry will seek to gain Maximum Advantage for his output even if it does not look pretty, Thats a big plus

Neither can really afford to coast, if Joe stands off to any great degree he allows Larry Full Extension on his punches Joe must deny him that, but Larry will probably be forced, perhaps from the 5th to Negate Joe with clinches and perhaps some leaning on, perhaps whilst looking/hopeing for a Weaver Type uppercut, as a strategy whether imposed or not, it may indeed pay a benefit early in denying Joe the opportunity to create too early a damaging impression, however if you do not disrupt Joe drastically his Rhytmatic Pattern will be Set and Joe, once Smoking, will be Awfully Hard to dislodge or derail, the heart certainly leans towards this March 8th 71 Ripping, Snorting, Pressure-Hooker to introduce Holmes to a Dance the type of which he has Never encountered before…But the Head…The Head tells me that Joe does not achieve the Ref's Gentlemans Excuse me !

Larry Has the Skill The Will the Adroitness, and Minimalist Approach to squardering energy, combined with his particular Bogey Punch Seeming to be the Right Cross, in Nature, a No-Go for Joe, that I can see an Early Rounds Larry Making those Few Impressive Early Connection which will sow the facial Hematoma and contusion seeds in Joe, which will germinate in the last Quarter, in between Joe will be on the Point of Disembolwing Larry with his inside work, and with Larry being repeatedly rattled when Joe suddenly switches a hook to the head, but a wary Larry, unlike Ali, never Showboating, denies Joe the full force flush connection he is constantly searching for, as they enter the final 3 rounds they are pretty much level, and on the point of Exhaustion, Joe Snorting Still, but more to clear Blood hampering his Breathing, Hematomas and contusions seeming to cast shadows on his own face from the overhead ring lights, and Larry His blooded Mouth Agape, sweat pourind down his face, the whites of his eyes Visible every time Joe Now Bundles him to the ropes, they grunt in unison, Joe in the manical effort of giving, and Larry taking no pleasure in receiving, Its gone Primeval. Manila comes to Vagas,....

But this time its not slow tired heavy veterans, - But Lean Mean Prime Fistic Machines - at least that’s how they started out, Come the 12th (?) we come to something of a Junction, one route leads to victory and one to defeat, and with the general opinion being that both are level on the cards, and with both now operating in that twilight world of numbed senses, and looking like extras from the Sam Remi stable, the outcame can now be decided by as little as five good punche either way,....

I can see Larry Catching a slower to close Joe with heavy Right coming in, and A tremor in Joes Knees betraying him, which is a cue for Larry to extend his Left as a measuring Stick and Start Clubbing with the Right, Crude but Effective, Joe Sags Against the Ropes, Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane, the Ref Jumps in to wave it off just as Durhams white towel flutters in, Larry is lead off to his Corner Stool but is very grateful that l it is brought half way to him……Joe Spits blood and tells Durham "i want him Again"..…Wills and Skills were level ….But Larrys no waste policy paid dividends,,,and those Half Dozen or so balance tipping Punches…… .

( Ask me Tomorrow and i might lean Joe's way, with Joes momentum carring him to victory, its probably that close...)

[yancey]

Its one of those pairings which could go either way, and the balance may ultimatelty be tipped one way or other by as little as a dozen full blooded shots?? In the early rounds when fresh will Larry find time to compose and execute, and catch Joe coming in with some heavy Flush Right Crosses which might hymatoma Joe up and allow Larry to Build a landing pad for his heavy Jab, and those Cruder but effective Clubbing Rights Larry Employs when he feels the time is right to terminate proceedings ??

Or does This Prime Joe Suffocate Larry with his Extreme Pressure, Bobing Weaving and Jinking past Larrys Hurried Jabs, to Rip To body and Head in those Drilled Number sequences as Barked out by Yancey Durham 6-6-2 Body-Body-Head 6-2-2 Body-Head-Head….??
Both men are will warriors who will exceed their normal physical tolerance levels, the will to impose upon, and the will not to be imposed upon, which barring cuts, will probably ensure both paties will have to battle through the exhaustion barriers that this deadlocked mentality will indeed impose on each other's bodies, but as to these tariffs, they instinctively would agree with themselves to recognise the pain the hurt the trauma later…perhaps the next day,,in a dark room with dark glasses….but during their match their desire will fuel their bodies beyond natural resourse…

Larry would be Approx 211 -213lb with Joe Approx 207-209lb so no real advantage to Larry in that regard, and neither seems to me to be capable of taking out the other Early, unlike shavers or weaver Joe does not Plod Forward so Larry will not enjoy time to fully Compose and Execute and will have to move to Create his own Punching Room, and Larry whilst a highly capable mover, usually does it sprarodicly to break up the monotony, shake up some rythme, and generally when he wishes to move, he much prefers to settle into a slide to side and counter regime, with lots of standing off and always at a distence to suit himself, But Joe will not play ball with this, he will be seeking to hussle, bussle and Tussle Larry off Kilter and launching from a moving platform is always harder then from anchoured foundations, where Ali moves through seer exhuberance and perhaps a desire to Look Pretty at all times, Larry is not adverse to winning ugly, so unlike a the rusty Ali, Larry will seek to gain Maximum Advantage for his output even if it does not look pretty, Thats a big plus

Neither can really afford to coast, if Joe stands off to any great degree he allows Larry Full Extension on his punches Joe must deny him that, but Larry will probably be forced, perhaps from the 5th to Negate Joe with clinches and perhaps some leaning on, perhaps whilst looking/hopeing for a Weaver Type uppercut, as a strategy whether imposed or not, it may indeed pay a benefit early in denying Joe the opportunity to create too early a damaging impression, however if you do not disrupt Joe drastically his Rhytmatic Pattern will be Set and Joe, once Smoking, will be Awfully Hard to dislodge or derail, the heart certainly leans towards this March 8th 71 Ripping, Snorting, Pressure-Hooker to introduce Holmes to a Dance the type of which he has Never encountered before…But the Head…The Head tells me that Joe does not achieve the Ref's Gentlemans Excuse me !

Larry Has the Skill The Will the Adroitness, and Minimalist Approach to squardering energy, combined with his particular Bogey Punch Seeming to be the Right Cross, in Nature, a No-Go for Joe, that I can see an Early Rounds Larry Making those Few Impressive Early Connection which will sow the facial Hematoma and contusion seeds in Joe, which will germinate in the last Quarter, in between Joe will be on the Point of Disembolwing Larry with his inside work, and with Larry being repeatedly rattled when Joe suddenly switches a hook to the head, but a wary Larry, unlike Ali, never Showboating, denies Joe the full force flush connection he is constantly searching for, as they enter the final 3 rounds they are pretty much level, and on the point of Exhaustion, Joe Snorting Still, but more to clear Blood hampering his Breathing, Hematomas and contusions seeming to cast shadows on his own face from the overhead ring lights, and Larry His blooded Mouth Agape, sweat pourind down his face, the whites of his eyes Visible every time Joe Now Bundles him to the ropes, they grunt in unison, Joe in the manical effort of giving, and Larry taking no pleasure in receiving, Its gone Primeval. Manila comes to Vagas,....

But this time its not slow tired heavy veterans, - But Lean Mean Prime Fistic Machines - at least that’s how they started out, Come the 12th (?) we come to something of a Junction, one route leads to victory and one to defeat, and with the general opinion being that both are level on the cards, and with both now operating in that twilight world of numbed senses, and looking like extras from the Sam Remi stable, the outcame can now be decided by as little as five good punche either way,....

I can see Larry Catching a slower to close Joe with heavy Right coming in, and A tremor in Joes Knees betraying him, which is a cue for Larry to extend his Left as a measuring Stick and Start Clubbing with the Right, Crude but Effective, Joe Sags Against the Ropes, Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane, the Ref Jumps in to wave it off just as Durhams white towel flutters in, Larry is lead off to his Corner Stool but is very grateful that l it is brought half way to him……Joe Spits blood and tells Durham "i want him Again"..…Wills and Skills were level ….But Larrys no waste policy paid dividends,,,and those Half Dozen or so balance tipping Punches…… .

( Ask me Tomorrow and i might lean Joe's way, with Joes momentum carring him to victory, its probably that close...)

Well, at the end, Joe may or may not have been been "Swaying like a Sick Sycamore in a Hurricane", but he would be looking down at Holmes who would be lying on the canvas in a fetal position.

Too much smoke for ol' Larry, me thinks.

[round15]

This all depends on which version of Frazier were talking about. If Holmes fought the 1969 - 1971 version, I'd say he probably gets knocked out late or loses a unanimous decision. If Holmes fought the same Frazier that Foreman whupped in 1973, Holmes would probably win by a unanimous decision or late round stoppage a la Manilla. I can't see Holmes knocking out Frazier but he could probably beat the post Foreman, post Manilla Frazier. I disagree with the fact that people place too much emphasis on the fight of the century when comparing Frazier. Frazier was at his absolute best I think just prior to the FOTC. The Ali that he fought in 1971 hit much harder and took a better punch than the pre exile 1960's Ali.

[teeto]

Shavers is awful and lost every time he stepped up in class.
This is corect but as you can see in my post I'm simply making the point of Holmes' ability to overcome a crisis , you saw what happened when Shavers dropped Holmes , it looked over. Holmes did tremendously well to wim that fight.

[yancey]

This all depends on which version of Frazier were talking about. If Holmes fought the 1969 - 1971 version, I'd say he probably gets knocked out late or loses a unanimous decision. If Holmes fought the same Frazier that Foreman whupped in 1973, Holmes would probably win by a unanimous decision or late round stoppage a la Manilla. I can't see Holmes knocking out Frazier but he could probably beat the post Foreman, post Manilla Frazier. I disagree with the fact that people place too much emphasis on the fight of the century when comparing Frazier. Frazier was at his absolute best I think just prior to the FOTC. The Ali that he fought in 1971 hit much harder and took a better punch than the pre exile 1960's Ali.

Excellent post. (which means I agree, haha)

Frazier, to my way of thinking, hit his peak with the Ellis fight in 1970.

Prime Joe handles prime Larry, imo.

[JohnThomas1]

The one thing shining thru here is just how very little separate these two, and i could not agree more. Anyones fight this one.

[nick wells jr]

frazier by ko from his relentless hooks.

[mr. magoo]

Shavers is awful and lost every time he stepped up in class.

If stepping up in class means losing in close impressionable fights to Muhammad Ali and Larry Holmes, then I really have to question your understanding of the term awful.

[nick wells jr]

shavers was a hell of puncher and i would never use his name and the word awful in the same sentence.

[cuchulain]

Holmes would probably take tis one, seven times out of ten.

His jab will keep Frazier off and he has KO power. Faster, better movement.

[BUDW]

Smoking Joe Frazier wins late TKO 13 rd or so.

[Bill1234]

no-contest Frazier destroys him KO4

Have you seen prime Holmes, or just him in the 90's?

[anut]

SO OUT OF 24 VOTES..........FRAZIER GOT 13 AND HOLMES GOT 11.....pretty much a pickem fight

[SuzieQ49]

I like frazier by late round TKO, it would be similiar to ali-frazier I except holmes couldnt take the pounding ali took. frazier grinds him down and gets to him late. close on scorecards at the time. holmes jab would be more problems for frazier but frazier would hammer away at larrys weak midsection and larrys problem of trying to brawl whenever he got hurt will catch up to him.

[Bill1234]

Larry's weak midsection? Larry took Cooney's hardest body shots that KO'd others with out even flinching. Of course, twice a left hook bothered Larry, other than that nothing (not counting the numerous low blows). I think some people are underrating Larry's mid section. Just because he didn't have a fancy 6 pack doesn't mean it wasn't solid. Later in his career he had a bigger stomach, but it still wasn't all that big for what his weight said. At 255/254 (Larry's fights with Butterbean and Weaver rematch) Larry's stomach was still smaller than a lot of guys out there now. Its all genetics. I went to a gym with the Mr. Natural universe (1986 and 2000), and he said and explained that some abs are mainly genetics. Thats why some have 8 pacs, and others have 2 pacs. He said in some rare cases some people don't have any at all, but it is extremely tight. In Larry's case, he wasn't born with large abs, so they would never be very defined.

[Keihule]

I cant believe how much shit gets talked about smokin' joe. I dont care how good of a boxer you are, or how good you are at defending the left hook, you going to get hit with it sooner or later.

And lets not forget, frazier was one of the best heavyweight body punchers in history. After Smokin' joe goes to town on your core for about 8 rounds it aint so easy to run around and "jab his head off" anymore.

Im seeing a Frazier KO in round 9 or 10.

[C. M. Clay II]

In my opinion, people read too much into the fight of the century when sizing up Frazier to Holmes. Ali was off for more than 3 years before fighting Joe, and would later beat him twice, despite being past his prime. Also, I don't think that Holmes was as susceptible to the left hook, the way that Ali was, and in fact, was far more vulnerable to the right. Frazier didn't have much of a right hand. I could also see Holmes blinding and frustrating Joe by constantly having his left hand extended in Frazier's face all night long. In addition, Frazier was vulnerable to the right uppercut as seen in the Foreman figtht. Now, I'm not going to try and make an argument that Holmes's uppercut was anything like Foreman's, but let's just say that it was lethal. If Joe lunged forward, and cornered Larry on the ropes, he would be wide open for that shot, and might even get floored. This would be a tuff fight for Larry, but I think he'd pull it off by a comfortable decision.

I couldn't have said it better myself.:happy

[nick wells jr]

Larry's weak midsection? Larry took Cooney's hardest body shots that KO'd others with out even flinching. Of course, twice a left hook bothered Larry, other than that nothing (not counting the numerous low blows). I think some people are underrating Larry's mid section. Just because he didn't have a fancy 6 pack doesn't mean it wasn't solid. Later in his career he had a bigger stomach, but it still wasn't all that big for what his weight said. At 255/254 (Larry's fights with Butterbean and Weaver rematch) Larry's stomach was still smaller than a lot of guys out there now. Its all genetics. I went to a gym with the Mr. Natural universe (1986 and 2000), and he said and explained that some abs are mainly genetics. Thats why some have 8 pacs, and others have 2 pacs. He said in some rare cases some people don't have any at all, but it is extremely tight. In Larry's case, he wasn't born with large abs, so they would never be very defined.
bill,just curious if your opinion would differ if you didnt have such close contact with him.any time someone has a different view than you you seem to react aggresivly.

[yancey]

I cant believe how much shit gets talked about smokin' joe. I dont care how good of a boxer you are, or how good you are at defending the left hook, you going to get hit with it sooner or later.

And lets not forget, frazier was one of the best heavyweight body punchers in history. After Smokin' joe goes to town on your core for about 8 rounds it aint so easy to run around and "jab his head off" anymore.

Im seeing a Frazier KO in round 9 or 10.

"I cant believe how much shit gets talked about smokin' joe"

Ain't that the truth!

I can only guess that some of these people weren't around to see just what a force Frazier was from '67 to '71, or drawn their conclusions from the Foreman fight with all the knockdowns of an out of shape, past prime Frazier, or maybe some are pissed that Frazier beat Ali when they both were at or near their primes. Whatever.

I do know Joe Frazier at his prime was a beast, and he likely takes out Larry in the later rounds.

[Bill1234]

bill,just curious if your opinion would differ if you didnt have such close contact with him.any time someone has a different view than you you seem to react aggresivly.

I do the same if they say something like that about Marciano. I hate it when 1 person says based on how a fighter looks, for example, Larry didn't have ripped abs, so people say he had a weak mid section. Which isn't even a little bit true. His mid section could take a pounding.

[SuzieQ49]

cooney hit holmes with a left hook to the midsection ending round 4 and larry looked like he wanted to cry. norton had some success attacking holmes midsection, a all time body puncher like frazier who tore up alis limbs would really work over holmes soft midsection

[JohnThomas1]

cooney hit holmes with a left hook to the midsection ending round 4 and larry looked like he wanted to cry. norton had some success attacking holmes midsection, a all time body puncher like frazier who tore up alis limbs would really work over holmes soft midsection

You're such a frigging brat Suzie :lol:

[zicas]

Holmes by late stoppage. Too much strength and power for Frazier to handle.. amazing jab + good clinching and inside work. I don't see how Frazier could win this.

[brownpimp88]

this fight is a pickem for me.

[Cojimar 1945]

Holmes failed to stop Berbick, Witherspoon or Norton yet he stops Frazier? That seems unlikely.

[Bill1234]

cooney hit holmes with a left hook to the midsection ending round 4 and larry looked like he wanted to cry. norton had some success attacking holmes midsection, a all time body puncher like frazier who tore up alis limbs would really work over holmes soft midsection

It was a very hard, clean shot that Larry took extremely well. Other were KO'd by the same type of shot, Larry didn't even flinch until he turned his back to go back to the corner. Cooney also hit Larry with a devasting low blow around round 9-12. To be honest I forget exactly which round. But that low blow alone would have destroyed most guys. Norton also had success with Ali's mid section. You call Larry's mid section soft because he didn't have a fancy 6 pac (I assume because thats pretty much the only argument you can make with it).

[RoccoMarciano]

It was a very hard, clean shot that Larry took extremely well. Other were KO'd by the same type of shot, Larry didn't even flinch until he turned his back to go back to the corner. Cooney also hit Larry with a devasting low blow around round 9-12. To be honest I forget exactly which round. But that low blow alone would have destroyed most guys. Norton also had success with Ali's mid section. You call Larry's mid section soft because he didn't have a fancy 6 pac (I assume because thats pretty much the only argument you can make with it).

How does Andrew Cooney grab ya? :lol:

[Mendoza]

I do the same if they say something like that about Marciano. I hate it when 1 person says based on how a fighter looks, for example, Larry didn't have ripped abs, so people say he had a weak mid section. Which isn't even a little bit true. His mid section could take a pounding.

Holmes could take a body shot. Norton was a great body puncher. In fact I think he really hurt Ali in the first fight with body punches. Cooney landed his best hook to the body. Holmes took the blows

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes failed to stop Berbick, Witherspoon or Norton yet he stops Frazier? That seems unlikely.

It's not impossible tho. Frazier gives everything and would never be content to coast or back off like a Berbick or Witherspoon might. There would be few if any quiet rounds vs Frazier, and this can be hell on both Joe and the opponent. Holmes retains his power late quite well. If it gets to the late rounds both combatants would be feeing it i think. Holmes has enormous heart and will just like Ali.

[Woddy]

Holmes failed to stop Berbick, Witherspoon or Norton yet he stops Frazier? That seems unlikely.

It's not really that simple believe it or not.

Unlike those other guys, Frazier had a constant habbit of lunging forward, and in the process could have made himself vulnerable to counter attack or even a vicious uppercut. Holmes had a very potent uppercut, especially when a fighter opted to bully him on the ropes, which I suspect Frazier would try to do. In all reality, I don't see Holmes knocking out or even stopping Frazier, but it could certainly happen in theory.

[Bill1234]

It's not impossible tho. Frazier gives everything and would never be content to coast or back off like a Berbick or Witherspoon might. There would be few if any quiet rounds vs Frazier, and this can be hell on both Joe and the opponent. Holmes retains his power late quite well. If it gets to the late rounds both combatants would be feeing it i think. Holmes has enormous heart and will just like Ali.

Good point. Also, Berbick had a pretty sturdy jaw, even though Holmes buckled his knee's and hurt him a few times with the right.

[Bill1234]

The way I look at it, Holmes is a slugger at heart, just lacked the power to be an effective one, and happened to have one of the, if not the greatest jabs of all time. IMO this is a lot of times why he would win exchanges and slug outs.

[Smokin'Moe420]

In my opinion, people read too much into the fight of the century when sizing up Frazier to Holmes. Ali was off for more than 3 years before fighting Joe, and would later beat him twice, despite being past his prime. Also, I don't think that Holmes was as susceptible to the left hook, the way that Ali was, and in fact, was far more vulnerable to the right. Frazier didn't have much of a right hand. I could also see Holmes blinding and frustrating Joe by constantly having his left hand extended in Frazier's face all night long. In addition, Frazier was vulnerable to the right uppercut as seen in the Foreman figtht. Now, I'm not going to try and make an argument that Holmes's uppercut was anything like Foreman's, but let's just say that it was lethal. If Joe lunged forward, and cornered Larry on the ropes, he would be wide open for that shot, and might even get floored. This would be a tuff fight for Larry, but I think he'd pull it off by a comfortable decision.

good theory but watch Frazier vs Quarry I Joe lands a devasting right hand in one of the early rounds

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes could take a body shot. Norton was a great body puncher. In fact I think he really hurt Ali in the first fight with body punches. Cooney landed his best hook to the body. Holmes took the blows

What rounds did Cooney land his absolutely best left hook to the body vs Holmes? I recall a couple of huge low shots, but if you point me to the full power legal blows i'll get the fight out of the cupboard and have a Captain Cook again.

[Sonny's jab]

I would never write Larry Holmes off completely, but I think a peak Joe Frazier would beat him quite harshly over 12 or 15 rounds.

[Cojimar 1945]

Shavers fight with Ali may have been close but Ali was well past it by that stage. Aside from knocking Holmes down how were Shavers fights with Holmes close?

[Bill1234]

What rounds did Cooney land his absolutely best left hook to the body vs Holmes? I recall a couple of huge low shots, but if you point me to the full power legal blows i'll get the fight out of the cupboard and have a Captain Cook again.

Why not just go over to youtube now? The full fight is on there, ring entrances and all. Cooney landed a hell of a left hook to the body at the end of the 4th.

[Bill1234]

Shavers fight with Ali may have been close but Ali was well past it by that stage. Aside from knocking Holmes down how were Shavers fights with Holmes close?

They weren't. An argument could be made for Larry to have won all 12 rounds in the first fight.

[Woddy]

good theory but watch Frazier vs Quarry I Joe lands a devasting right hand in one of the early rounds

What does Frazier landing a single right hand on Quarry have to do with how he'd do against a peak Holmes? :huh