Why Jack Dempsey should be hightly rated

[Mendoza]

While it’s true Dempsey lacks a win over another all time great heavyweight, and he has some shady outcomes in some of his most famous matches, I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweight.

Here’s why I beleive Dempsey should be highly rated:

*Power. Dempsey was a true two fisted puncher, with knockout power in both the cross and the hook. Many punchers only have fight ending power in one hand. With Dempsey, once he landed his best, the other guy often went down quickly, and shortly after that was O-U-T. Dempsey was not an attrition type of puncher like Marciano or Frazier were in most cases. Dempsey carried his power well into the later rounds too.

*Size and Style. Dempsey was an aggressive swarmer / stalker type who excelled as both an out fighter, and an in-fighter. He worked the head and the body equally well and could string together combinations. At 6’1 1/2”, and 77” of reach, Dempsey was by no means a short or limited reach type of fighter. While a prime Dempsey weighed about 188 pounds in the 1920’s, he had no trouble knocking out modern sized heavyweights, and some of them had top chins. Dempsey had the frame to properly carry about 205-210 pounds.

*Speed, reflexes, and agility. Dempsey had excellent hand speed, good reflexes, and unusually quick feet in comparison to all great heavyweights. He could move forward, backwards, or in a circular motion to get angles on others fighter. Most punchers just aren’t this fast with their hands or their feet, nor can they circle or get angles then attack the way Dempsey could. Dempsey has a speed advantage over most sluggers, a reach and height advantage over most swarmers, and the footwork speed to catch up to the deluxe boxer types. When you combine this with his power and aggressive nature, you have a unique type of fighter.

*Chin. Dempsey has one KO loss in 83 fights. This is very good. Dempsey fought a few good punchers. He survived a chin checking shot vs Fripo, and a pasting from Jack Sharkey. Dempsey was not a chinny puncher at all.

*Heart and will to win. Dempsey proved he had a ton of heart in the Fripo match, and would do what it took to win. In the clinches, Dempsey was pure hell.

* Stamina. A prime Dempsey had true 15 round stamina.

* Defense. Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense, which can be seen on film. Most swarmer types who prefer to attack do not have this good of a defense.

* Ring record. 66-6-11 at Box rec. The losses to Tunney were vs another all time great when Dempsey was past his best. One of those losses to Tunney is marred by “ the long count “, which might have been a KO win for Dempsey if there was no problem with the count. Besides the Tunney losses, Dempsey lost to Flynn. The Flynn loss was was avenged via KO. Dempsey never lost a match scheduled for 6 rounds or more. Had the Meehan fights been 10 round affairs, Dempsey likely wins via TKO late.

* Quality wins. Dempsey holds wins over Fripo, Willard, J. Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, and Pelky. Dempsey owns a KO win over all these ranked fighters, except for Gibbons who ran for 15 rounds.

*Historical opinions. Dempsey is a highly rated fighter to this day. Boxing historians, mangers, referees, promoters, fighters, and fans who saw Dempsey rated him in the top 3 in the 1940’s, 1950’s, and 1960’s and 1970’s. In 2007 the IBRO, a group of boxing historians gave Dempsey their #4 spot in the top 20 among heavyweights. While I think these rating might be a trifle high, they do speak volumes about opinions on Dempsey in multiple decades.

*Film. There is no doubt Dempsey had some speical performances on film in the ring, and in sparring session that live up to his legendary status. Not all old timers perform on film as good as their legend suggests they should have. While the film quality on Dempsey isn’t smooth or crystal clear, we can get a good feel for what he was about.

[JohnThomas1]

Good post mate. Nice to see someone giving some easy to follow non emotional facts on this one. Excellent work squire

:good

[Mendoza]

Good post mate. Nice to see someone giving some easy to follow non emotional facts on this one. Excellent work squire

:good

I rate Dempsey about 7th or 8th. Had he fought and beaten Wills, OR had the count been normal and Dmepsey beaten Tunney, I would move Dempsey up a few spots.

[JohnThomas1]

I rate Dempsey about 7th or 8th. Had he fought and beaten Wills, OR had the count been normal and Dmepsey beaten Tunney, I would move Dempsey up a few spots.

Fair call mate. I at present am not sure he will quite make my 10. I think he will end up sitting between 12 and 15.

[Pete47]

I rate Dempsey about 7th or 8th. Had he fought and beaten Wills, OR had the count been normal and Dmepsey beaten Tunney, I would move Dempsey up a few spots.

Yes, I agree with You, Mendoza. Dempsey was a great fighter and he contributed much to make boxing very popular in the golden twenties.

[McGrain]

I like that post Mendoza, but all of these things are relative. It's possible for a person (me) to admire a fighter like Dempsey and still have him outside of their top 10 becuase of how they regard other great fighters.

The difference between 10 and 11 is not big enough that it can ever really be said of a guy approaching the bottom end of a list "he should be in the top 10". 10 is just a number after all.

[OLD FOGEY]

I rate Dempsey about 7th or 8th. Had he fought and beaten Wills, OR had the count been normal and Dmepsey beaten Tunney, I would move Dempsey up a few spots.

Your initital post was solidly argued. It will be interesting to see the rebuttals, if any.

One thing I would question--I think Tunney would have beaten the count. Also, there are those, and Tunney was the most prominent among them, who thought Dempsey got the benefit of a long count when he was knocked out of the ring by Firpo. There is no way of judging that off the existing film, which is spliced.

I personally think Dempsey is a very strong top ten candidate, but it is a stretch to put him in the top five. Ali, Louis, Marciano, Lewis, and Holmes get my top five positions.

[JohnThomas1]

I like that post Mendoza, but all of these things are relative. It's possible for a person (me) to admire a fighter like Dempsey and still have him outside of their top 10 becuase of how they regard other great fighters.

The difference between 10 and 11 is not big enough that it can ever really be said of a guy approaching the bottom end of a list "he should be in the top 10". 10 is just a number after all.

He did only say "highly" tho. He said he himself believes he has done enough for the 10. Kudo's to you tho for ranking outside the box.

[McGrain]

I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweight.

.

This is the line I was referring to JT.

I have Dempsey at 11, between Foreman (12) and Holmes (10)

[Mendoza]

I like that post Mendoza, but all of these things are relative. It's possible for a person (me) to admire a fighter like Dempsey and still have him outside of their top 10 becuase of how they regard other great fighters.

The difference between 10 and 11 is not big enough that it can ever really be said of a guy approaching the bottom end of a list "he should be in the top 10". 10 is just a number after all.

Agreed. There is not much difference between my #7 fighter and my #11 fighter. Much of it is based on a subjective opinion of the given data, with tendencies, strengths, and weaknesses mix into the equations.

My point of this thread was to make a case as to why Dempsey should be considered as a top 10 fighter. I can live with Dempsey as low as say, top 15-20 as long as the person is fair minded explanation.

[Mendoza]

Your initital post was solidly argued. It will be interesting to see the rebuttals, if any.

One thing I would question--I think Tunney would have beaten the count. Also, there are those, and Tunney was the most prominent among them, who thought Dempsey got the benefit of a long count when he was knocked out of the ring by Firpo. There is no way of judging that off the existing film, which is spliced.

I personally think Dempsey is a very strong top ten candidate, but it is a stretch to put him in the top five. Ali, Louis, Marciano, Lewis, and Holmes get my top five positions.

In boxing, a fighter " come to " and regain his senses in a matter of seconds. On film, it looks like Tunney " came too " and was ready to get up count of 4-5 ( which was more like 8-9 seconds in the long count ). The question is this. Did the few extra seconds give Tunney the additional time he needed to regains his senses and legs. I lean towards NO, Tunney would have got up A-OK with a normal count, but we can't know for sure.

[JohnThomas1]

This is the line I was referring to JT.

I have Dempsey at 11, between Foreman (12) and Holmes (10)

You simply have to get Foreman back to 11!!! He beat an actaul great in Frazier via decimation, decimated a Norton not toooo far outside the 10 and won the title back at a ridiculous age in his 40's. George is the man.

[McGrain]

You simply have to get Foreman back to 11!!! He beat an actaul great in Frazier via decimation, decimated a Norton not toooo far outside the 10 and won the title back at a ridiculous age in his 40's. George is the man.

He's hugely flawed. I think that Foreman is slow enough that he could be outpunched, and certainly we've seen he could be outthought. I think there is little doubt he could be outboxed.

Foreman is great, but to be clear, he's a sort of "gatekeeper" type to me, which is to say that all those who are ranked above him represent the absolute cream.

The fact that I have Marciano at 13 is the REAL headache.

I'm almost alone in the world (apart from I Am Legend) in picking Tyson to beat Foreman, too.

[JohnThomas1]

He's hugely flawed. I think that Foreman is slow enough that he could be outpunched, and certainly we've seen he could be outthought. I think there is little doubt he could be outboxed.

Foreman is great, but to be clear, he's a sort of "gatekeeper" type to me, which is to say that all those who are ranked above him represent the absolute cream.

The fact that I have Marciano at 13 is the REAL headache.

I'm almost alone in the world (apart from I Am Legend) in picking Tyson to beat Foreman, too.

Foreman would utterly cream Dempsey if we speak head to head. Marciano needs to be higher, the man was never beaten. Took on pretty much all comers too. He's got to be ahead of Dempsey for sure and probably Foreman too. When i complete my 10 Rocky will surely be top 7 or 8, possibly even down to 5.

[OLD FOGEY]

In boxing, a fighter " come to " and regain his senses in a matter of seconds. On film, it looks like Tunney " came too " and was ready to get up count of 4-5 ( which was more like 8-9 seconds in the long count ). The question is this. Did the few extra seconds give Tunney the additional time he needed to regains his senses and legs. I lean towards NO, Tunney would have got up A-OK with a normal count, but we can't know for sure.

Agreed.

[Mendoza]

Can I make a request to keep the other fighters mostly out of this thread? I perfer to keep it a Dempsey thread.

[McGrain]

Foreman would utterly cream Dempsey if we speak head to head.

I might make Foreman a slim favourite, but "utterly cream" is not how I see it. To be frank, I don't think that Foreman could beat any one of the following - Ali (ahem), Louis, Liston (no hope), Lewis, Hollyfield, Jeffries, Holmes, Hollyfield, Frazier (ok, this one is a joke) or Tyson. So he beats Frazier, and the only other guy he has a chance against in my 10 is Johnson.

Dempsey is a much, much, much better composite puncher for me than Foreman. I think he was #9 on my recent composite punchers list. Foreman was not even considered, really. So therefore, Dempsey, (who is also an underdog v most of these guys) has the better punchers chance for me.

Marciano needs to be higher, the man was never beaten. Took on pretty much all comers too. He's got to be ahead of Dempsey for sure and probably Foreman too. When i complete my 10 Rocky will surely be top 7 or 8, possibly even down to 5.

Marciano is a problem for me, yes indeed.

[mr. magoo]

Can I make a request to keep the other fighters mostly out of this thread? I perfer to keep it a Dempsey thread.

What do you think about Wilbert " Vampire" Johnson?

[Mendoza]

What do you think about Wilbert " Vampire" Johnson?

Ok, but it's almost lunch time and I am going out to an Italian place with Garlic rolls.

[mr. magoo]

Ok, but it's almost lunch time and I am going out to an Italian place with Garlic rolls.

LOL :bat1


Bon Apetit...

[dmt]

While it’s true Dempsey lacks a win over another all time great heavyweight, and he has some shady outcomes in some of his most famous matches, I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweight.

Here’s why I beleive Dempsey should be highly rated:

*Power. Dempsey was a true two fisted puncher, with knockout power in both the cross and the hook. Many punchers only have fight ending power in one hand. With Dempsey, once he landed his best, the other guy often went down quickly, and shortly after that was O-U-T. Dempsey was not an attrition type of puncher like Marciano or Frazier were in most cases. Dempsey carried his power well into the later rounds too.

*Size and Style. Dempsey was an aggressive swarmer / stalker type who excelled as both an out fighter, and an in-fighter. He worked the head and the body equally well and could string together combinations. At 6’1 1/2”, and 77” of reach, Dempsey was by no means a short or limited reach type of fighter. While a prime Dempsey weighed about 188 pounds in the 1920’s, he had no trouble knocking out modern sized heavyweights, and some of them had top chins. Dempsey had the frame to properly carry about 205-210 pounds.

*Speed, reflexes, and agility. Dempsey had excellent hand speed, good reflexes, and unusually quick feet in comparison to all great heavyweights. He could move forward, backwards, or in a circular motion to get angles on others fighter. Most punchers just aren’t this fast with their hands or their feet, nor can they circle or get angles then attack the way Dempsey could. Dempsey has a speed advantage over most sluggers, a reach and height advantage over most swarmers, and the footwork speed to catch up to the deluxe boxer types. When you combine this with his power and aggressive nature, you have a unique type of fighter.

*Chin. Dempsey has one KO loss in 83 fights. This is very good. Dempsey fought a few good punchers. He survived a chin checking shot vs Fripo, and a pasting from Jack Sharkey. Dempsey was not a chinny puncher at all.

*Heart and will to win. Dempsey proved he had a ton of heart in the Fripo match, and would do what it took to win. In the clinches, Dempsey was pure hell.

* Stamina. A prime Dempsey had true 15 round stamina.

* Defense. Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense, which can be seen on film. Most swarmer types who prefer to attack do not have this good of a defense.

* Ring record. 66-6-11 at Box rec. The losses to Tunney were vs another all time great when Dempsey was past his best. One of those losses to Tunney is marred by “ the long count “, which might have been a KO win for Dempsey if there was no problem with the count. Besides the Tunney losses, Dempsey lost to Flynn. The Flynn loss was was avenged via KO. Dempsey never lost a match scheduled for 6 rounds or more. Had the Meehan fights been 10 round affairs, Dempsey likely wins via TKO late.

* Quality wins. Dempsey holds wins over Fripo, Willard, J. Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, and Pelky. Dempsey owns a KO win over all these ranked fighters, except for Gibbons who ran for 15 rounds.

*Historical opinions. Dempsey is a highly rated fighter to this day. Boxing historians, mangers, referees, promoters, fighters, and fans who saw Dempsey rated him in the top 3 in the 1940’s, 1950’s, and 1960’s and 1970’s. In 2007 the IBRO, a group of boxing historians gave Dempsey their #4 spot in the top 20 among heavyweights. While I think these rating might be a trifle high, they do speak volumes about opinions on Dempsey in multiple decades.

*Film. There is no doubt Dempsey had some speical performances on film in the ring, and in sparring session that live up to his legendary status. Not all old timers perform on film as good as their legend suggests they should have. While the film quality on Dempsey isn’t smooth or crystal clear, we can get a good feel for what he was about.good post Mendoza, excellent post infact :good

[Marciano Frazier]

I pretty much agree with your assessment of Dempsey. He's #7 on my list.

[Maxmomer]

I might make Foreman a slim favourite, but "utterly cream" is not how I see it. To be frank, I don't think that Foreman could beat any one of the following - Ali (ahem), Louis, Liston (no hope), Lewis, Hollyfield, Jeffries, Holmes, Hollyfield, Frazier (ok, this one is a joke) or Tyson. So he beats Frazier, and the only other guy he has a chance against in my 10 is Johnson.

Dempsey is a much, much, much better composite puncher for me than Foreman. I think he was #9 on my recent composite punchers list. Foreman was not even considered, really. So therefore, Dempsey, (who is also an underdog v most of these guys) has the better punchers chance for me.

People seem to now assume that Foreman would destroy any swarmer syle fighter just because he destroyed a shot Frazier. Shot Frazier and prime Dempsey are two different matters. I'd have it 50/50.

[JohnThomas1]

dempsey was way faster then both foreman and the rock..but foreman may well have beat him given his size and success with fighters of dempseys frame he had..but dempsey was able to box good..witness the first 2 mintues of dempsey willard..where he darted in and out...far better a boxer then tommy morrison...but of course.thats a old foreman the duke beat..as for the rock...the rock gets owned...check out my thread i have about dempsey sparring..has some good footage of his taking on big bill tate.

Enjoyed the sparring actually. Sorry but noway can i see 190 pound swarmer surviving against Foreman. D'Amato made the comment no swarmer in history beats Foreman and i agree. Tyson would be toughest. Foreman's got a superb chin too, stylistically he's a nightmare for Dempsey.

[ChrisPontius]

Excellent assessment Mendoza. I rank Dempsey somewhere around #10, but the difference between #7 and #10 is small and part of it comes to personal preference, of course.

[Mendoza]

Enjoyed the sparring actually. Sorry but noway can i see 190 pound swarmer surviving against Foreman. D'Amato made the comment no swarmer in history beats Foreman and i agree. Tyson would be toughest. Foreman's got a superb chin too, stylistically he's a nightmare for Dempsey.

JT,

Dempsey wasn't a stationary swarmer like others. He moved and circled very well. Did Dempsey attack Willard square up, or did he move and wait for an opening? A prime Dempsey moved around more than Ali did when he fought a prime Foreman in 1974. It’s true.

Judging on how easily Dempsey dropped men bigger than Foreman, you have to assume he could drop Foreman too if he landed enough. Lyle, who did not hit as hard as Dempsey dropped Foreman twice and nearly had him out. Ail and Young also dropped Foreman, though part of it was due to Foreman running out of gas, which would be a problem for him in the mid to late rounds if he didn't finish Dempsey early.

Dempsey being 190 pounds has nothing to do with his power. I think Willard and Firpo had good to very good chins, and Dempsey floored each man multiple times in the first round! Foreman had a wide open defense and wild swinging style. He could not match Dempsey's hand speed.

Foreman vs Dempsey is a pick em' type of fight in my book.

[Bummy Davis]

I rated Dempsey high but because of the impressiveway he desposed of Willard not so much of the win, the Firpo win to me impresses because of Jacks brutal 2 fisted power against a guy who was wild and hard to defend against. Dempsey was not active but if you look at the Heavyweights who preceded him, none were, even Johnson did not defend against the Black challegers of his time. Dempsey had the 1st million dollar gate and the Promoter Tex Richard had a lot of control on who Jack fought but I rated Jack high #4 and one of the reasons was that even a faded (legs) Dempsey was impressive with the long count fight over Tunney(great mover, fast hands and feet) and brutal Ko over Sharkey. Dempsey was one of the meanest with killer instinct in boxing had decent speed and power but did not have the example of a Louis (defended vs all) Marciano( 5 times vs #1 contender) Dempsey was the 1st of the great batch but could have defended more times if his focus was on boxing. I have to evalute his place when I revaluate my ratings, he may be lower but then I must do the same with Jeffries,Johnson and Holmes who did not always fight the best of there times.

[JohnThomas1]

JT,

Dempsey wasn't a stationary swarmer like others. He moved and circled very well. Did Dempsey attack Willard square up, or did he move and wait for an opening?

Contrary to some belief Frazier wasn't totally statuesque either. Tyson in his early days had sensational head movement and elusiveness. Marciano was underrated for his awkwardness in defense too. I still like Foreman over them all.

A prime Dempsey moved around more than Ali did when he fought a prime Foreman in 1974. It’s true.

Well Ali only moved for one round, if that. He came up with a surpreme on the spot strategy that centered around his unbelievable ability to take punishment both to head AND body. Why did Ali choose to rope a dope? The two consensus reasons are that he knew he couldn't dance all night vs George and you also hear that he thought Foreman cut off the ring too well. Even at that stage i'm sure Ali could have been more elusive than Dempsey could ever dream of, but knew the strategy would not prevail.

The thing is, swarmers really really don't like to fight backing up. Foreman can and indeed will back them up. His chin, size and strength give him every chance too. Dempsey at 190 is going to be backed up. It won't be good news.

Judging on how easily Dempsey dropped men bigger than Foreman, you have to assume he could drop Foreman too if he landed enough.

I can't remember anyone as small as Dempsey ever knocking full blown Foreman to the canvas. Many people dropped bigger men than Foreman, but that didn't mean they were going to drop George. George thumped out many bigger men than Dempsey, and men with good chins. I cannot see Dempsey being in the fight long enough to land the punches needed to do the job. I'm also a bit dubious of his power at 190. To be honest i think it might be a tad overrated.

Lyle, who did not hit as hard as Dempsey dropped Foreman twice and nearly had him out.

Did Dempsey hit harder than Lyle tho? Lyle was 30 pounds bigger and sure got some nice leverage on his shots. Dempsey is more explosive, but it takes a lot of that to make up for 30 well used pounds. Lyle was a damn hard puncher. Also, this is not the best of Foreman. He is one of these fighters who was never quite the same again once his aura of invincibility was taken, IMO. Even so, that Lyle could drop a guy with a fantastic chin like Foreman speaks volumes for his power.

Ail and Young also dropped Foreman, though part of it was due to Foreman running out of gas, which would be a problem for him in the mid to late rounds if he didn't finish Dempsey early.

Now i can agree. I can't see Dempsey getting there, but yes, if he somehow did it would be tougher. Don't forget Jack's size dictates he won't be taking much out of Foreman in the clinches.

Dempsey being 190 pounds has nothing to do with his power.

I totally disagree. Tell me when is the last time a guy 190 or below walked around routinely knocking out top class heavyweights? Again, i fear Dempsey's power when matched against top class modern heavyweights will be shown to be overrated.

[janitor]

I totally disagree. Tell me when is the last time a guy 190 or below walked around routinely knocking out top class heavyweights? Again, i fear Dempsey's power when matched against top class modern heavyweights will be shown to be overrated.

Dempseys power is one factor that can be taken for granted.

Whatever you think about the big men he knocked out their ability to absorb punishment would have been comparable to big heavyweights from other eras. Lennox Lewis's bones would shatter just like Jess Willards if Dempsey landed on him.

[Woddy]

Whatever you think about the big men he knocked out their ability to absorb punishment would have been comparable to big heavyweights from other eras. Lennox Lewis's bones would shatter just like Jess Willards if Dempsey landed on him.

How can you possibly surmize that Dempsey's power would have been too much for Lewis? Throughout his career, Lewis took shots from countless numbers of fighters who could bang. Mason, Klitschko, Golata, Grant, Bruno, Morrison and many others. I'd say his chin and durabity were very well tested to say the least. He was of course stoppe by Rahman and McCall, but one of those fights came when he was 35 years old, while the other was a possible pre-mature stoppage. In both cases McCall and Rahman were well over 200 Lbs, and not 190.

[C. M. Clay II]

How can you possibly surmize that Dempsey's power would have been too much for Lewis? Throughout his career, Lewis took shots from countless numbers of fighters who could bang. Mason, Klitschko, Golata, Grant, Bruno, Morrison and many others. I'd say his chin and durabity were very well tested to say the least. He was of course stoppe by Rahman and McCall, but one of those fights came when he was 35 years old, while the other was a possible pre-mature stoppage. In both cases McCall and Rahman were well over 200 Lbs, and not 190.

Dempsey was a better puncher than both McCall and Rahman. Lewis wouldn't be able to handle his speed and power.

[dmt]

as expected a thread on Dempsey can't go with three or so pages with other fighters being mentioned and then turning into another hate thread" so and so fighter would crush him" blah blah blah. This thread is to discuss Dempsey only so let's keep it that way

[Woddy]

Dempsey was a better puncher than both McCall and Rahman. Lewis wouldn't be able to handle his speed and power.

Lewis was also a better puncher, boxer and overall athlete than just about everyone Dempsey ever fought. It works both ways. I also clearified in my other post that Lewis was 35 against Rahman, and the McCall fight wasn't exactly a clear cut knockout either.

[Woddy]

as expected a thread on Dempsey can't go with three or so pages with other fighters being mentioned and then turning into another hate thread" so and so fighter would crush him" blah blah blah. This thread is to discuss Dempsey only so let's keep it that way

Okay let's keep it to Dempsey then.

Did you know that Dempsey fought a journeman named Willie Meehan 5 times in his career and only came up with a win once? :yep

[dmt]

Okay let's keep it to Dempsey then.

Did you know that Dempsey fought a journeman named Willie Meehan 5 times in his career and only came up with a win once? :yepdid u know how badly he was robbed especially in their last fight? :yep :good

[janitor]

How can you possibly surmize that Dempsey's power would have been too much for Lewis? Throughout his career, Lewis took shots from countless numbers of fighters who could bang. Mason, Klitschko, Golata, Grant, Bruno, Morrison and many others. I'd say his chin and durabity were very well tested to say the least. He was of course stoppe by Rahman and McCall, but one of those fights came when he was 35 years old, while the other was a possible pre-mature stoppage. In both cases McCall and Rahman were well over 200 Lbs, and not 190.

Power on its own is about as formidable as a wet letuce.

What Dempsey had that made him so firmidable was power combined with incredible technique and delivery. There is no puncher like Dempsey in heavyweight history. There might be middleweights with similar technique. There might be heavyweights who are as good in a diferent way like Louis or Tyson.

Dempsey could absolutely destroy any human being that he could land on with any consistency.

[Woddy]

did u know how badly he was robbed especially in their last fight? :yep :good

Why don't you post the footage, given that you sound so sure of yourself as though you've seen it? Then I can decide for myself.

[janitor]

Why don't you post the footage, given that you sound so sure of yourself as though you've seen it? Then I can decide for myself.

That cuts both ways.

In any event it was little more than an exhibition. Meehan refused several offers to meet Dempsey in a ten rounder. An no Meehan was not a journeyman.

[dmt]

Why don't you post the footage, given that you sound so sure of yourself as though you've seen it? Then I can decide for myself.well upwithevil posted newspaper reports of how bad a decision it was, there is no film of these fights.

Meehan was a slick and speedy boxer who wasn't bad. He had after all beaten Sam Langford and Jack Dillion if i am not wrong, hall of famers. His fights with Dempsey were four rounders and he didn;t want longer fights. The two "draws" and the last fight in particular were badly booed by the crowd

[janitor]

Meehan was a slick and speedy boxer who wasn't bad. He had after all beaten Sam Langford and Jack Dillion if i am not wrong, hall of famers. His fights with Dempsey were four rounders and he didn;t want longer fights. The two "draws" and the last fight in particular were badly booed by the crowd

Meehan is a fascinating fighter in his own right.

He basicaly made a career out of beating hall of famers in four rounders.

[Woddy]

Power on its own is about as formidable as a wet letuce.

What Dempsey had that made him so firmidable was power combined with incredible technique and delivery. There is no puncher like Dempsey in heavyweight history. There might be middleweights with similar technique. There might be heavyweights who are as good in a diferent way like Louis or Tyson.

Dempsey could absolutely destroy any human being that he could land on with any consistency.

I thnk that the quality of an athletes abilities has to be measured based on who he actually applied them against. Dempsey's opposition was about 5 levels below Lewis's.

[Woddy]

Meehan is a fascinating fighter in his own right.

He basicaly made a career out of beating hall of famers in four rounders.

I think Meehan was a journeyman.

[janitor]

I thnk that the quality of an athletes abilities has to be measured based on who he actually applied them against. Dempsey's opposition was about 5 levels below Lewis's.

I disagree.

[janitor]

I think Meehan was a journeyman.

Then you either dont know what a journeyman is or dont know who Meehan was.

Journeymen dont regularly fight the best of their era on even terms.

[Woddy]

I disagree.

Precisely why this thread has existed needlessly for so long.

[prime]

While it’s true Dempsey lacks a win over another all time great heavyweight, and he has some shady outcomes in some of his most famous matches, I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweight.

Here’s why I beleive Dempsey should be highly rated:

*Power. Dempsey was a true two fisted puncher, with knockout power in both the cross and the hook. Many punchers only have fight ending power in one hand. With Dempsey, once he landed his best, the other guy often went down quickly, and shortly after that was O-U-T. Dempsey was not an attrition type of puncher like Marciano or Frazier were in most cases. Dempsey carried his power well into the later rounds too.

*Size and Style. Dempsey was an aggressive swarmer / stalker type who excelled as both an out fighter, and an in-fighter. He worked the head and the body equally well and could string together combinations. At 6’1 1/2”, and 77” of reach, Dempsey was by no means a short or limited reach type of fighter. While a prime Dempsey weighed about 188 pounds in the 1920’s, he had no trouble knocking out modern sized heavyweights, and some of them had top chins. Dempsey had the frame to properly carry about 205-210 pounds.

*Speed, reflexes, and agility. Dempsey had excellent hand speed, good reflexes, and unusually quick feet in comparison to all great heavyweights. He could move forward, backwards, or in a circular motion to get angles on others fighter. Most punchers just aren’t this fast with their hands or their feet, nor can they circle or get angles then attack the way Dempsey could. Dempsey has a speed advantage over most sluggers, a reach and height advantage over most swarmers, and the footwork speed to catch up to the deluxe boxer types. When you combine this with his power and aggressive nature, you have a unique type of fighter.

*Chin. Dempsey has one KO loss in 83 fights. This is very good. Dempsey fought a few good punchers. He survived a chin checking shot vs Fripo, and a pasting from Jack Sharkey. Dempsey was not a chinny puncher at all.

*Heart and will to win. Dempsey proved he had a ton of heart in the Fripo match, and would do what it took to win. In the clinches, Dempsey was pure hell.

* Stamina. A prime Dempsey had true 15 round stamina.

* Defense. Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense, which can be seen on film. Most swarmer types who prefer to attack do not have this good of a defense.

* Ring record. 66-6-11 at Box rec. The losses to Tunney were vs another all time great when Dempsey was past his best. One of those losses to Tunney is marred by “ the long count “, which might have been a KO win for Dempsey if there was no problem with the count. Besides the Tunney losses, Dempsey lost to Flynn. The Flynn loss was was avenged via KO. Dempsey never lost a match scheduled for 6 rounds or more. Had the Meehan fights been 10 round affairs, Dempsey likely wins via TKO late.

* Quality wins. Dempsey holds wins over Fripo, Willard, J. Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, and Pelky. Dempsey owns a KO win over all these ranked fighters, except for Gibbons who ran for 15 rounds.

*Historical opinions. Dempsey is a highly rated fighter to this day. Boxing historians, mangers, referees, promoters, fighters, and fans who saw Dempsey rated him in the top 3 in the 1940’s, 1950’s, and 1960’s and 1970’s. In 2007 the IBRO, a group of boxing historians gave Dempsey their #4 spot in the top 20 among heavyweights. While I think these rating might be a trifle high, they do speak volumes about opinions on Dempsey in multiple decades.

*Film. There is no doubt Dempsey had some speical performances on film in the ring, and in sparring session that live up to his legendary status. Not all old timers perform on film as good as their legend suggests they should have. While the film quality on Dempsey isn’t smooth or crystal clear, we can get a good feel for what he was about.

Thank you, Mendoza, for this wonderful post. Each point you mention is meaty stuff and spot-on regarding a great who, as you say, was that rare two-fisted power puncher with good boxing fundamentals, speed, chin, stamina, heart and charismatic aura.

I learn just by watching Dempsey a few seconds on those old films. As you say, in contrast to other names, he grows bigger in estimation when you compare the hype to the film. This guy was the real deal.

[OLD FOGEY]

did u know how badly he was robbed especially in their last fight? :yep :good

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

Off the newspaper description, Meehan was not a jab and move guy, but a swarmer who came forward and threw a great many slap punches. The reporters commented that Dempsey was not nearly as effective with a fighter who carried the fight to him.

[Woddy]

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

Off the newspaper description, Meehan was not a jab and move guy, but a swarmer who came forward and threw a great many slap punches. The reporters commented that Dempsey was not nearly as effective with a fighter who carried the fight to him.

Thank you Old Fogey.

Its nice to see someone who actually uses references to support his arguments, rather than some who merely argue from pure emotion and nothing else.

I'd sure like to see dmt respond to this.

[My dinner with Conteh]

The two "draws" and the last fight in particular were badly booed by the crowd


Fight reports would be worth looking at.

[My dinner with Conteh]

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.


If this is true, then it looks like DMT's been hitchin' a ride with Janitor to Liarsville. :yep

[dmt]

That fight was in San Franciso. The SF library has microfilm of five newspapers which covered the fight. Four of them had Meehan winning.

Off the newspaper description, Meehan was not a jab and move guy, but a swarmer who came forward and threw a great many slap punches. The reporters commented that Dempsey was not nearly as effective with a fighter who carried the fight to him.i don't know OLD FOGEY, i read that this was more of an exhibition fight, and that Meehan was knocked down during it.

[Woddy]

If this is true, then it looks like DMT's been hitchin' a ride with Janitor to Liarsville. :yep

Hey what's wrong with lying? If you're creative enough, you can defend just about anything in the world that you want to.

DMT is learning the trade quite well.

[dmt]

here's one quote by eric jorgensen of cbz " Oh, yeah, the 5th fight in 1919. Bear with me whilst I set the stage here: it was a benefit for the U.S. Navy (contemporary accounts call it an "exhibition", in fact), Meehan was in the Navy, and the crowd was comprised almost entirely of Naval personnel. Due to the spirit of the proceedings and his friendship with Meehan, Dempsey adopted a pretty relaxed attitude in this fight, but not so relaxed that he didn't again dominate completely, chasing Meehan all over the ring, even dropping him (perhaps accidentally) for a count in the 2nd. There was no question that Dempsey was by far the better man that night. But, there was also no question whose hand the referee and sole judge would raise at the end. They say the crowd of cadets went wild. . . ."

[Woddy]

i don't know OLD FOGEY, i read that this was more of an exhibition fight, and that Meehan was knocked down during it.

Of course, anytime a blemish shows up on the record of a perceived all time great, then its automatically an exhibition right. In that case, why don't we just call Tyson-Douglas an exhibition. Or Ali Spinks an exhibition.

What about the other 4 meetings that Dempsey had with Meehan, including the one where Dempsey actually got a "W"? Were they exhibitions to?

[dmt]

Of course, anytime a blemish shows up on the record of a perceived all time great, then its automatically an exhibition right. In that case, why don't we just call Tyson-Douglas an exhibition. Or Ali Spinks an exhibition.i said i read it was an exnhibiton, i didn't say i was 100 percent sure

[My dinner with Conteh]

here's one quote by eric jorgensen of cbz " Oh, yeah, the 5th fight in 1919. Bear with me whilst I set the stage here: it was a benefit for the U.S. Navy (contemporary accounts call it an "exhibition", in fact), Meehan was in the Navy, and the crowd was comprised almost entirely of Naval personnel. Due to the spirit of the proceedings and his friendship with Meehan, Dempsey adopted a pretty relaxed attitude in this fight, but not so relaxed that he didn't again dominate completely, chasing Meehan all over the ring, even dropping him (perhaps accidentally) for a count in the 2nd. There was no question that Dempsey was by far the better man that night. But, there was also no question whose hand the referee and sole judge would raise at the end. They say the crowd of cadets went wild. . . ."




Who wrote this and what's it taken from?

[Woddy]

Who wrote this and what's it taken from?

What's more, does it account for the results of Dempsey and Meehan's other 4 meetings?

[dmt]

Who wrote this and what's it taken from?it's taken from Cyber boxing zone, i did not make anything up, all i said it this is what i found

[My dinner with Conteh]

What's more, does it account for the results of Dempsey and Miske's other 4 meetings?



It reads like a quote from someone who witnessed the bout "there's no question Dempsey won" but then the "they say the cadets went wild" seems to contradict this presence.

[My dinner with Conteh]

it's taken from Cyber boxing zone, i did not make anything up, all i said it this is what i found


I'm talking about the original quote. Who's saying this stuff?

[dmt]

It reads like a quote from someone who witnessed the bout "there's no question Dempsey won" but then the "they say the cadets went wild" seems to contradict this presence.still going to show up when and where Dempsey was knocked down by a welterweight?

[dmt]

I'm talking about the original quote. Who's saying this stuff?historian Eric Jorgensen, a writer for Cyber Boxing Zone

[Woddy]

historian Eric Jorgensen, a writer for Cyber Boxing Zone


If the man is a current writer for Cyber Boxing Zone, then I seriously doubt that he was present to witness this fight.

[janitor]

Of course, anytime a blemish shows up on the record of a perceived all time great, then its automatically an exhibition right. In that case, why don't we just call Tyson-Douglas an exhibition. Or Ali Spinks an exhibition.

What about the other 4 meetings that Dempsey had with Meehan, including the one where Dempsey actually got a "W"? Were they exhibitions to?

In this period the line between exhibitions and fights was blured. Somtimes an exhibition ended up being a fight because the state athletic comision required it to be and vice versa.

[OLD FOGEY]

i don't know OLD FOGEY, i read that this was more of an exhibition fight, and that Meehan was knocked down during it.


It was a fight for a naval charity of some sort, but I guess it was considered a real fight. The papers did comment that it was a great gesture on the part of Dempsey to take part and risk his status. Willard, if I remember correctly, had turned them down flat and so Dempsey stepped in as the replacement, a shrewd move on Kearns' part. There was a consensus that the defeat should not be held against Dempsey as he had graciously and patriotically agreed to fight for charity.
Dempsey did knock down Meehan for a nine count in the second, if memory serves, but Meehan seems to have had the edge in the other rounds and he rallied in the fourth to slap Dempsey about the ring. Meehan seems to have been a swarmer with busy hands. This style may have bothered Dempsey more than classic boxers or certainly big, but slow, fellows such as Willard or Fulton.

Kearns did claim Dempsey had fought with an injured hand and at least one reporter agreed that it was bruised and swollen. Dempsey fought the next night and stopped Jack Moran in one.

[janitor]

Meehan seems to have been a come forward swarmer with busy hands.

I had Meehan pegged as a go backwards swarmer with busy hands if you can imagine that.

[Dempsey1238]

The arm forces will always root for one of there own though. So as in the case here, its not shock imo, that they went with Meehan.

[My dinner with Conteh]

still going to show up when and where Dempsey was knocked down by a welterweight?


Banana Sam was that man. Ask Earnie Shavers. :good

[Marciano Frazier]

According to a few newspaper accounts OLD FOGEY posted here a while back, Dempsey wasn't robbed as clearly as Jorgensen's article makes it sound, but it was definitely close, it was only a four-rounder, it was a semi-exhibitionish fight at a charity event, and Dempsey probably wasn't taking it very seriously. I don't really think this is an enormous blotch on Dempsey's legacy.

[prime]

Some info I dug up from my Boxing Illustrated 100-Years-of-Boxing 1992 issue:

1918
Willie Meehan W4 Jack Dempsey
September 13
San Francisco

Fat Willie gets off deck to slap Dempsey around for four rounds, gets decision in Dempsey's last defeat until Tunney.

Fighter of the Year 1918
Jack Dempsey
Knocked out Jim Flynn, Bill Brennan, Arthur Pelkey, Fred Fulton, Battling Levinsky, Carl Morris and Gunboat Smith, among others; 20-1 on year; scored 17 kayoes, 12 in the first round; only loss against Willie Meehan in "California Law" four-round affair.

Not a bad year at all for Jack Dempsey. Amazing work rate. Even the best baseball teams will lose to mediocrities after the first twenty games of the season. This was obviously not Dempsey's best day against an awkward opponent he still almost knocked out.

In those days, most fighters had more or less the mentality of the Major Leaguer facing the 162-game season. You win some, you might lose some because you fought often. Today it is much about protecting the precious "0" in the loss column.

Dempsey and Meehan never fought beyond four rounds. In their brief bouts, Dempsey perhaps never established clear superiority over Fat Willie, but styles make fights. No way is Norton the equal of Ali.

[Marciano Frazier]

Some info I dug up from my Boxing Illustrated 100-Years-of-Boxing 1992 issue:

1918
Willie Meehan W4 Jack Dempsey
September 13
San Francisco

Fat Willie gets off deck to slap Dempsey around for four rounds, gets decision in Dempsey's last defeat until Tunney.

Fighter of the Year 1918
Jack Dempsey
Knocked out Jim Flynn, Bill Brennan, Arthur Pelkey, Fred Fulton, Battling Levinsky, Carl Morris and Gunboat Smith, among others; 20-1 on year; scored 17 kayoes, 12 in the first round; only loss against Willie Meehan in "California Law" four-round affair.

Not a bad year at all for Jack Dempsey. Amazing work rate. Even the best baseball teams will lose to mediocrities after the first twenty games of the season. This was obviously not Dempsey's best day against an awkward opponent he still almost knocked out.

In those days, most fighters had more or less the mentality of the Major Leaguer facing the 162-game season. You win some, you might lose some because you fought often. Today it is much about protecting the precious "0" in the loss column.

Dempsey and Meehan never fought beyond four rounds. In their brief bouts, Dempsey perhaps never established clear superiority over Fat Willie, but styles make fights. No way is Norton the equal of Ali.
True. In addition, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that, "It was told by friends of Dempsey before the fight started that he [Dempsey] had a damaged left hand." The referee for the match also said, "without doubt that bad hand handicapped Dempsey from landing hard punches."

In other words, these guys are vehemently bashing the man on the basis of one very close loss in a four-rounder to an awkward opponent while fighting a not-so-serious charity match with an injured hand. Hypercritical much?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Well, if we're going to talk about friends saying fighters were handicapped somehow then we'd be here all year. We could then go on about how the NY Times reported Tommy Gibbons looking ill, weight-drained and generally useless before his fight with Dempsey, for example.

[dmt]

It was a fight for a naval charity of some sort, but I guess it was considered a real fight. The papers did comment that it was a great gesture on the part of Dempsey to take part and risk his status. Willard, if I remember correctly, had turned them down flat and so Dempsey stepped in as the replacement, a shrewd move on Kearns' part. There was a consensus that the defeat should not be held against Dempsey as he had graciously and patriotically agreed to fight for charity.
Dempsey did knock down Meehan for a nine count in the second, if memory serves, but Meehan seems to have had the edge in the other rounds and he rallied in the fourth to slap Dempsey about the ring. Meehan seems to have been a swarmer with busy hands. This style may have bothered Dempsey more than classic boxers or certainly big, but slow, fellows such as Willard or Fulton.

Kearns did claim Dempsey had fought with an injured hand and at least one reporter agreed that it was bruised and swollen. Dempsey fought the next night and stopped Jack Moran in one.that's fair OLD FOGEY. Wherever i read it was considered more of an exhibition. I will try to find some newspaper reports. If i can't then that's my bad luck but i will try to get deeper into this

[dmt]

OLD FOGEY, i found a report on this

By Leon Meyer
' SAN FRANCISCO.—Amid the wild-
est enthusiasm thathas greeted a pair
of boxers in the local ring in several
years, Referee Eddie Graney awarded
Willie Meehan the decisio over Jack
Dempsey after four rounds of rather
hard-fighting at the Civic auditorium,
the other night.
While the spectators, especially the
gallery gods, cheered the decision
loudly, it did an injustice to Jack
Kearns fighter. Dempsey was at least
entitled to a draw.
What little damage was done during
the four rounds belonged to Dempsey.
His punches had far more sting than
Meehan's and he came dangerously
near scoring a knockout in the second
round, when he sat Willie down with
a left hook to the jaw and pumped in
some pile driving punches to the rolypoly
heavy's head and body. Meehan
was in a wobbly condition at bell time.
The third found Willie fully recuperated,
thanks to his good condition,
and he fairly tore at Dempsey, swinging
his arms from every angle. He
startled Dempsey with his come back
and the latter was forced back to the
ropes before he regained his equilibrium.
When Meehan again rushed
Dempsey landed a left-swing that
staggered him. As he did so it was
noticed that he dropped the arm, and
after the contest it was discovered
that h!s left hand was in a badly
swollen condition;
Dempsev acted as if in pain and
didn't fight back as hard as he might
have done, and Meehan took the lead
and kept it to the end of the round,
The punches Willie kept uncorking
usually missed their mark, but His
rushes forced Dempsey back and it
appeared to the spectators at a distance
that the blows were staggering
him, while they had little or no effect.
The fourth round waS fairly even.
Meehan was rushing and swinging
wildly, while Dempsey was shooting
in some short jolts, with an occasional
swing. Willie kept in close all through
the round, and with his arms working
overtime it appeared as if he was
doing some great execution. The majority
of the blows, however, were
smothered by Dempsey.
For two rounds Dempsey looked like
a greatly improved fighter. He was
fast on his feet, blocked nicely and
had a fine assortment of hooks and
swings that hurt. Beginning with the
third he seemed to slow up, but he
stated after the contest, and the condition
of his hand bore this out, that
he was in -pain and could hardly use
his left- hand."

[dmt]

If this is true, then it looks like DMT's been hitchin' a ride with Janitor to Liarsville. :yepi don't make anything up and i try to provide evidence for what i say instead of making jokes about Dempsey being knocked down by welters :good

[My dinner with Conteh]

How dare you joke about Banana Sam :twisted:

[dmt]

How dare you joke about Banana Sam :twisted::lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

Good research there by the way, is that from the SF Chronicle?

[dmt]

Good research there by the way, is that from the SF Chronicle?yes

[dmt]

it just seems like Dempsey was the more effective hitter despite being bruised and showed good defense and scored a knockdown, Jack probably deserved it but without the film it is not easy to say

[dmt]

Thank you Old Fogey.

Its nice to see someone who actually uses references to support his arguments, rather than some who merely argue from pure emotion and nothing else.

I'd sure like to see dmt respond to this.dmt has responded to this ;)

[My dinner with Conteh]

Whatever happened to Willie's title shot? Didn't his management table two separate offers? One for an 8-round fight, the other for a long one of 25 or something? Seems Jack was in no hurry to fight Meehan again (not that he seems to be in a hurry to fight anyone else, mind).


Another thing that makes me laugh is the dismissal of the 'four round schedule' of the Fat Willie fights, as if this hindered Dempsey. What's next, Tyson fans bemoaning that some of his earlier fights were 'unfairly' scheduled for just six rounds. :lol:

[Marciano Frazier]

Well, if we're going to talk about friends saying fighters were handicapped somehow then we'd be here all year. We could then go on about how the NY Times reported Tommy Gibbons looking ill, weight-drained and generally useless before his fight with Dempsey, for example.
Why not? If they were saying it before the fight, how is it invalid?

[My dinner with Conteh]

Why not? If they were saying it before the fight, how is it invalid?


My point was that you'll find stuff like this in loads of fights.

[OLD FOGEY]

OLD FOGEY, i found a report on this

By Leon Meyer
' SAN FRANCISCO.—Amid the wild-
est enthusiasm thathas greeted a pair
of boxers in the local ring in several
years, Referee Eddie Graney awarded
Willie Meehan the decisio over Jack
Dempsey after four rounds of rather
hard-fighting at the Civic auditorium,
the other night.
While the spectators, especially the
gallery gods, cheered the decision
loudly, it did an injustice to Jack
Kearns fighter. Dempsey was at least
entitled to a draw.
What little damage was done during
the four rounds belonged to Dempsey.
His punches had far more sting than
Meehan's and he came dangerously
near scoring a knockout in the second
round, when he sat Willie down with
a left hook to the jaw and pumped in
some pile driving punches to the rolypoly
heavy's head and body. Meehan
was in a wobbly condition at bell time.
The third found Willie fully recuperated,
thanks to his good condition,
and he fairly tore at Dempsey, swinging
his arms from every angle. He
startled Dempsey with his come back
and the latter was forced back to the
ropes before he regained his equilibrium.
When Meehan again rushed
Dempsey landed a left-swing that
staggered him. As he did so it was
noticed that he dropped the arm, and
after the contest it was discovered
that h!s left hand was in a badly
swollen condition;
Dempsev acted as if in pain and
didn't fight back as hard as he might
have done, and Meehan took the lead
and kept it to the end of the round,
The punches Willie kept uncorking
usually missed their mark, but His
rushes forced Dempsey back and it
appeared to the spectators at a distance
that the blows were staggering
him, while they had little or no effect.
The fourth round waS fairly even.
Meehan was rushing and swinging
wildly, while Dempsey was shooting
in some short jolts, with an occasional
swing. Willie kept in close all through
the round, and with his arms working
overtime it appeared as if he was
doing some great execution. The majority
of the blows, however, were
smothered by Dempsey.
For two rounds Dempsey looked like
a greatly improved fighter. He was
fast on his feet, blocked nicely and
had a fine assortment of hooks and
swings that hurt. Beginning with the
third he seemed to slow up, but he
stated after the contest, and the condition
of his hand bore this out, that
he was in -pain and could hardly use
his left- hand."

Good show. Thanks for printing it. But the consensus of the SF papers was that Meehan had a slight edge in a close fight. The injured left hand was mentioned by others. San Franciso had five papers in those days.

I should add that as I remember it after three years or so.

[Marciano Frazier]

Whatever happened to Willie's title shot? Didn't his management table two separate offers? One for an 8-round fight, the other for a long one of 25 or something? Seems Jack was in no hurry to fight Meehan again (not that he seems to be in a hurry to fight anyone else, mind).

Another thing that makes me laugh is the dismissal of the 'four round schedule' of the Fat Willie fights, as if this hindered Dempsey. What's next, Tyson fans bemoaning that some of his earlier fights were 'unfairly' scheduled for just six rounds. :lol:
:patsch If Dempsey had given Meehan a title shot, he'd be getting slagged even worse for it right now than he is for the title defenses he actually made. During Dempsey's title reign, Meehan was badly beaten by not one, not two, but three of Dempsey's title challengers! By mid-1920 he was losing to positively everyone. This would've been in league with Joe Louis' worst "bum-of-the-month" title fights. Think of it this way; there isn't some enormous call to give Ross Purrity a title shot at Wlad Klitschko, is there? You see, to people who were actually there, instead of being hypercritical revisionists digging through his record for dirt 85 years later, a close four-round decision loss in a semi-exhibition charity event a while back hardly seemed like cause for giving a guy not even close to being any kind of serious contender a shot at the championship- and say what you will about Dempsey's actual title opponents, they were all legitimate contenders.

As for the four-round limit, you think it didn't give Meehan a better chance? I think all kinds of mediocre fighters with awkward/clashing styles would be able to hold even with all-time greats in four-round fights. Gregorio Peralta might win half the time in four-rounders with George Foreman. Quick Tillis might steal some four-round decisions over Mike Tyson. Buster Mathis beat Joe Frazier repeatedly in three-round amateur fights, and I bet he could do it in a four-round pro fight. Meehan had a difficult style for Dempsey, clearly. In four-round fights, he was able to back-peddle and pitty-pat full-stop and win rounds over Jack. Even then, Dempsey had Meehan down and hurt and arguably won while fighting a charity match with an injured hand. Meehan did not have top stamina or long-term durability. What do you think would happen if they fought a longer fight? I don't think it's hard to see.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Good show. Thanks for printing it. But the consensus of the SF papers was that Meehan had a slight edge in a close fight.


Maybe dmt doctored it? ;)

[Marciano Frazier]

My point was that you'll find stuff like this in loads of fights. Note: McVey's account also mentions that Dempsey was seen to have a badly swollen hand after the fight.

Second, what is, well, the point of your point? Dempsey had a legitimate injury going into this match, and to the hand he relied on for his money punch. It was, again, not a very serious match and only a four-rounder, one of over 20 fights he had that year. He still had Meehan down and nearly out and won the fight in the eyes of many observers. What is your beef here?

[My dinner with Conteh]

a close four-round decision loss in a semi-exhibition charity event a while back hardly seemed like cause for giving a guy not even close to being any kind of serious contender a shot at the championship- and say what you will about Dempsey's actual title opponents, they were all legitimate contenders.


Legitimate, eh? Funny enough, when the fight was offered, Willie had won just one of his last five fights, so had Miske. :lol:

[My dinner with Conteh]

Note: McVey's account also mentions that Dempsey was seen to have a badly swollen hand after the fight.

Second, what is, well, the point of your point? Dempsey had a legitimate injury going into this match, and to the hand he relied on for his money punch. It was, again, not a very serious match and only a four-rounder, one of over 20 fights he had that year. He still had Meehan down and nearly out and won the fight in the eyes of many observers. What is your beef here?



My 'beef' is it didn't seem to affect him in rounds 1 or 2 but was swollen some time in the 3rd.

[My dinner with Conteh]

...and I'd say that Peralta and Tillis' only chance to beat Foreman and Tyson was in a longer fight.

[Marciano Frazier]

Legitimate, eh? Funny enough, when the fight was offered, Willie had won just one of his last five fights, so had Miske. :lol:
Look, if you're just going to keep nitpicking little phrases out of my posts and ignoring the overwhelming majority of the points (which debunk your snappy little anti-Dempsey quips), this is going to become deeply tedious.

Second, you're just spinning numbers here. Miske had lost two of his last five in very close decisions, both to elite-level opponents (Norfolk and Gibbons). Since then, he had draws with Brennan and Levinsky (again, both legitimate ranking fighters) and had won his last fight. Miske had a career as a legitimate elite fighter and had beaten many name opponents. After losing to Dempsey, he went on a huge winning streak and beat guys like Brennan, Gibbons, and, by the way, Meehan himself, by a crushing one-round knockout! If you're going to pretend you can't see the difference between this and a journeyman who was consistently going to draws and losses with non-entities on the world scale like Hugh Walker and Martin Burke, then there's pretty much no use in even trying to talk to you.

[Marciano Frazier]

My 'beef' is it didn't seem to affect him in rounds 1 or 2 but was swollen some time in the 3rd. Um, again, as I quoted already, the account states that his friends had mentioned before the fight that his hand was hurt, and McVey's notes that afterwards it was seen looking badly swollen. And even if the former weren't the case, that would still mean he was fighting half the match with a badly swollen hand.

[My dinner with Conteh]

I don't care what happened after the fight with Dempsey, I'm saying he shouldn't have gotten a shot before. He did and the basic selling point was that Miske had given Dempsey a good fight(s) beforehand. Same applies with Meehan. Imagine the tagline: "The guy who Jack couldn't beat". The public would have eaten it up.

[My dinner with Conteh]

...and funny enugh, it was done in response to Janitor's post that 'Meehan ducked a chance at Dempsey over 10 rounds when Jack was champ" that appears in one of the plethora of Dempsey threads.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Um, again, as I quoted already, the account states that his friends had mentioned before the fight that his hand was hurt, and McVey's notes that afterwards it was seen looking badly swollen. And even if the former weren't the case, that would still mean he was fighting half the match with a badly swollen hand.


Like Old Fogey mentions, Dempsey fought the very next evening. So it couldn't have been a major injury.

[dmt]

a contender like Miske who beat so many top contenders in his carrier atleast deserved one shot. BTW if i am not wrong the greb website credits Miske as a newspaper win over Greb, i'd have to look it up

[My dinner with Conteh]

Actually, I don't think there's too much wrong with Miske having a title fight (after all Stander, Roman and Wepner did), I was just making the point that Meehan's record over the previous year or so wasn't dissimilar- and the 'Can Jack beat him?' selling point was obviously a strong one.

[Sonny's jab]

Well stated thread-opener from Mendoza, most of which I completely agree with.

I rate Dempsey highly. He's up there with the very best.

Like any other great fighter he has a blemish or two on his record, a lacklustre result or two, a controversial win or draw, a loss or a bad aggregate score in a series with any "ordinary" fighter.

All the greats have some career record imperfections or a style they could never shine against, opponents that figure to be easy but were a pain in the ass.

Inevitably some people will pick up on such results and blow them way out of proportion and distort their historical significance and context.

I guess that's what drives this forum.

[Cojimar 1945]

Lyle failed to floor Jerry Quarry. I don't think he flooed the small Gregorio Peralta either.

[dmt]

Willie would have never fought Dempsey in a longer fight. Funny how the other Dempsey fights pre title were scheduled for longer on the most part but everytime he fought Dempsey it was a 4 rounder.

[dmt]

Good show. Thanks for printing it. But the consensus of the SF papers was that Meehan had a slight edge in a close fight. The injured left hand was mentioned by others. San Franciso had five papers in those days.

I should add that as I remember it after three years or so.do you mean to say that these articles in SF that u read were written three years after the actual bout?

[Senya13]

Funny how the other Dempsey fights pre title were scheduled for longer on the most part but everytime he fought Dempsey it was a 4 rounder.
I guess Meehan never agreed to fight Dempsey outside of California state, with it's stupid law of allowing only 4 rounds fights.

[dmt]

I guess Meehan never agreed to fight Dempsey outside of California state, with it's stupid law of allowing only 4 rounds fights.:good

[Senya13]

Speaking of which, does anybody know exact date when that law was adopted? I'd like to read how they explained it.

[Mendoza]

Look, if you're just going to keep nitpicking little phrases out of my posts and ignoring the overwhelming majority of the points (which debunk your snappy little anti-Dempsey quips), this is going to become deeply tedious.

Second, you're just spinning numbers here. Miske had lost two of his last five in very close decisions, both to elite-level opponents (Norfolk and Gibbons). Since then, he had draws with Brennan and Levinsky (again, both legitimate ranking fighters) and had won his last fight. Miske had a career as a legitimate elite fighter and had beaten many name opponents. After losing to Dempsey, he went on a huge winning streak and beat guys like Brennan, Gibbons, and, by the way, Meehan himself, by a crushing one-round knockout! If you're going to pretend you can't see the difference between this and a journeyman who was consistently going to draws and losses with non-entities on the world scale like Hugh Walker and Martin Burke, then there's pretty much no use in even trying to talk to you.

Well said. Miske was a top fighter in his time. Meehan was one of those rare journeymen capable of going the distance with just about anyone, and occasionally upsetting ranked fighters.

[Mendoza]

According to a few newspaper accounts OLD FOGEY posted here a while back, Dempsey wasn't robbed as clearly as Jorgensen's article makes it sound, but it was definitely close, it was only a four-rounder, it was a semi-exhibitionish fight at a charity event, and Dempsey probably wasn't taking it very seriously. I don't really think this is an enormous blotch on Dempsey's legacy.

I agree with this. Two things to focus on here.

1 ) Meehan wasn't that bad. Meehan has wins over Jeff Clark, Sam Langford, Jack Demspey, and Jack Dillion! Three of these fighters are in the hall of fame, and one day, I predict Clark will get the nod as well. As I said before, Meehan went 100+ matches with one lone stoppage.

2 ) This was a 4 round match with no titles on the line in an era were draws were more frequent than they were today.

[Sonny's jab]

Dempsey is a top ATG fighter --- top 5 heavy

I think so too.

[prime]

I think so too.

Ditto.

[OLD FOGEY]

do you mean to say that these articles in SF that u read were written three years after the actual bout?

No. They are from the next day. I meant that I read them three years ago or so and do not have notes. I am just pointing out that I am relying on my aging memory, never the best thing to do, but I have no choice in this case.

[OLD FOGEY]

Well said. Miske was a top fighter in his time. Meehan was one of those rare journeymen capable of going the distance with just about anyone, and occasionally upsetting ranked fighters.

Miske was certainly one of the top men of the time, but he did lose to men like Gibbons, Greb, and Norfolk around the time he fought his fights with Dempsey. His draw with Dempsey is sandwiched between two defeats by Kid Norfolk. The point is that someone like Miske was an
outstanding fighter of his time but not necessarily better or perhaps even as good as the outstanding contenders of other eras, such as, for example, Bob Pastor or Eddie Machen.

[Mendoza]

I guess Meehan never agreed to fight Dempsey outside of California state, with it's stupid law of allowing only 4 rounds fights.

Intersting information.

[SuzieQ49]

I dont think dempsey is top 5 HW of all time. not without a win over wills. Wills arguebably can be ranked higher than jack dempsey.


As much as people love to praise dempsey's astonishing looking definive skills on film, he sure has hell struggled, got stunned and hurt alot against crude fat southern panhandle grease looking fighters.

[joe33]

I dont think dempsey is top 5 HW of all time. not without a win over wills. Wills arguebably can be ranked higher than jack dempsey.


As much as people love to praise dempsey's astonishing looking definive skills on film, he sure has hell struggled, got stunned and hurt alot against crude fat southern panhandle grease looking fighters.


How can you rate willis above dempsey?,What makes him rank above JD then?

[SuzieQ49]

How can you rate willis above dempsey?,What makes him rank above JD then?


well since you ask..........


Wills beat much better competition than jack dempsey

Wills cleaned out the heavyweight division more than jack did(beating the best black heavyweights as well as top white heavyweights fulton,firpo).

Wills on his prime isnt on film, but on paper him and jack are just about an even fight, and the fact wills had a 6'4 220lb body with an 80" reach skills and a punch, he could very well upset dempsey.



Still, i rank dempsey over wills, but not by much.

[JohnThomas1]

well since you ask..........


Wills beat much better competition than jack dempsey

Wills cleaned out the heavyweight division more than jack did(beating the best black heavyweights as well as top white heavyweights fulton,firpo).

Wills on his prime isnt on film, but on paper him and jack are just about an even fight, and the fact wills had a 6'4 220lb body with an 80" reach skills and a punch, he could very well upset dempsey.



Still, i rank dempsey over wills, but not by much.

Insightful post. I know it's hard to judge, but do you think Wills would have beaten Dempsey Suze? Obviously he has a great chance.

[Woddy]

How can you rate willis above dempsey?,What makes him rank above JD then?This question has already been answered for the most part, but I'll throw in my two cents. Wills proceeded to beat top opposition over the three year period where Dempsey sat idle on the belt. Thats where the big difference comes in. Wills arguably beat better fighters over the long haul.

[dmt]

I dont think dempsey is top 5 HW of all time. not without a win over wills. Wills arguebably can be ranked higher than jack dempsey. . Wills also beat better fighters then Jack Johnson


As much as people love to praise dempsey's astonishing looking definive skills on film, he sure has hell struggled, got stunned and hurt alot against crude fat southern panhandle grease looking fighters.so did most other atg's