Lennox Lewis v Muhammad Ali

[McGrain]

Who, and please, please, please, why?

[Zakman]

A prime Ali would bo cricles around Lewis, perhaps even stop him late. Ali wasn't known as a puncher, but Lewis didn't take the greatest shot, so I could see an accumulation of punches taking Lewis out somewhere in the "championship rounds." Not only did Lewis not have the sturdiest chin, but his stamina wasn't the greatest either. In a 15 round fights, Ali takes him out.

[Duodenum]

In a 15 round fight, the best Lewis could realistically hope for are three judge's scorecards all reading 150-135 for Ali. Lennox would simply be too big and easy a target to hit. If it goes past 12 rounds though, don't bet on Lewis going the distance.

[hopkinsfan07]

easy ko for ali

Lewis's jab is his best weapon and Ali's is better

Ali had power and could take lewis out 5th-8th round

[Muchmoore]

Ali wins by UD 10-5 or 8-4. A young Lewis was a beast and would trouble Ali but the speed edge and ring generalship is the difference.

[hopkinsfan07]

:rofl at the above two answers. I think Lennox is definitely one of those capable of beating Ali, bad matchup, terrible in fact. If Norton could mess up Ali and give him those kinds of problems Lewis certainly could.

no lennox's chin is bad probly to bad for how much ali would hit him

[McGrain]

:rofl at the above two answers. I think Lennox is definitely one of those capable of beating Ali, bad matchup, terrible in fact. If Norton could mess up Ali and give him those kinds of problems Lewis certainly could.

I tend to agree. Lewis hit hard too.

Patterson I Ali has this problem - Lewis is massive and has a big big reach. It's true he can't be expected to lug himself about at Ali's pace for 10 through 15, but he'll be live the whole time he's in there. I agree that Ali is the better ring general, but I think after Johnson, Ali & Hollyfield, Lewis heads up that second clutch. He would have his hands full.

Frazier III Ali has a problem too. One of the best defensive in fighters in the division history and perhaps the strongest of all time along with Liston and Foreman.

I do favour Ali, but I think the shouts we've heard so far undersell the difficulty of this job.

[Muchmoore]

no lennox's chin is bad probly to bad for how much ali would hit him

He was dropped twice his whole career. He hardly had a glass jaw, he fought hard punchers Ruddock, Tua, Briggs, Tyson, Mason, etc without being dropped.

[McGrain]

Ali wouldn't be hitting him a lot, and Norton didn't have a very good chin either, no better than Lewis's, and Lewis was way better than Norton as well.


In addition: Lewis doesn't cut, and Ali doesn't hit hard enough to drop Lewis. Whilst Lewis' chin is suspect, it can only be descibred as so in the light of the company he keeps - the best fighters of all time.

Average-good hitters won't drop him. And Lewis will be entirely focused for this one.

No one punch or combo KO. You're looking at points or accumilation of punishment.

[hdog]

With Lewis height and reach, it wouldn't be easy for Ali at first but I think Ali's superior movement, stamina and smarts takes over.

[Robbi]

Ali survives a knockdown from Lewis right hand to win on points. Holmes would also beat Lewis.

[rekcutnevets]

If Lewis were to stand in the center of the ring, and make Ali bring the fight to him; he could make this fight real interesting. Only once that I know of has Ali been in the ring with someone as tall as Lewis. I don't recall him facing anyone that size, with Lewis' jab, right hand, and timing.

I believe Ali would need to adopt a similar fighing style to what Evander Holyfield used on Riddick Bowe in their rematch. A young Ali would have been capable of a fight like that, and I feel Ali would win a decision.

I don't know about a 70's Ali. That is a tough fight to call. Ali still had legs, but not 15 rounds worth. I don't think Lewis would be able to stop that Ali, but I may favor him in a decision win there.

For the record; I rate Lewis 7th at heavyweight all time. I have Ali 1st.

[Seamus]

I think Lewis would do slightly better than Karl Milderbeger, as in stop Ali in 8 or 9 rounds.

[Zakman]

You guys are ridiculous, you have no idea how to actually analyze a matchup. Completely ridiculous.

Why? Because Lewis was starched by such stellar HWs as Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman???:lol:

[brooklyn1550]

Lennox Lewis would give Ali trouble...his size, strength, power, and jab would be tough to overcome for anybody on his best nights. However, assuming this is the prime Ali we are talking about, his speed, movement, chin, and jab would get him a decision victory.

[robert ungurean]

Ali by comftorable UD.

[NickHudson]

I think LL's slight ponderousness plays beautifully into Alis hands. Meanwhile, LL does not offer enough in return to trouble Ali, other than the occasional clean right cross. I think LL would struggle to land his jab on a dancing, alert 208 lb Ali.

Ali to win 12 or 13 rounds outright in a one-sided 15 round fight

[Zakman]

Ali had one-punch power? Since when? And Lewis at his best stood in there with bigger hitters than those guys without even tasting canvas, so you can bring up those two fights all you want, they don't hold ANY relevance in this fight. Lewis by decision, and I love Ali. I think Ali rates above him, but head to head Lewis gives him or anyone else hell.

I love debating you man - you are a fierce competitor for your positions, and I respect that. BUt you're DEAD WRONG here. Neither McCall OR Rahman were known as particularly heavy hitters UNTIL they starched Lewis. Their reps as "punchers" are almost entirely made off the Lewis fight.

Look at Rahman - two fights with glass-jawed Oleg Maskaev, who is another guys whose power is overrated, btw - and he couldn't even put him on the canvas. At least McCall managed that. On the other hand he couldn't take out china-chinned Frank Bruno. These guys are basically "one hit wonders" - and Lewis was their one hit!!

As far as Lewis not getting laid out by Tua, or Mercer - who are probably the hardest hitters he's faced, well I credit the adjustments he and Manny made after the McCall debacle. And it's one of the reasons that Lewis IS an ATG - they worked on defensive techniques, blocking punches, rolling with punches, etc. - and it worked beautifully.

In fact, given Lewis' shaky chin, if it wasn't for the McCall and Rahman KOs and the fact that he faced old versions of Holyfield and Tyson and didn't face Bowe - I'd probably put him in the top five, achievement wise!

[Senya13]

Ali gets a boxing lesson and loses by wide margin, and even that because he chooses to run and survive, 'coz he knows if he tries to stand up and fight, he's getting KTFO.

[Smokin'Joe]

I don't see how some of you think Lewis would have a chance. IMO this would be a completely boring fight. You're saying size and strength is an issue here, but I don't think it is, if anything Lewis's size and therefore lack of speed would be working against him. Ali's agility would neutralize the power edge of Lewis, who's ponderous fighting style would negate such advantages even moreso.

Ali UD 15

[Senya13]

Ali's agility in fixed fights with Liston? Or his agility against Doug Jones and Henry Cooper?

[Amsterdam]

Ali had one-punch power? Since when? And Lewis at his best stood in there with bigger hitters than those guys without even tasting canvas, so you can bring up those two fights all you want, they don't hold ANY relevance in this fight. Lewis by decision, and I love Ali. I think Ali rates above him, but head to head Lewis gives him or anyone else hell.

Not a prime Tyson, Tyson would blast him in 3 rounds or less peak/peak. The difference here is that Tyson does possess 1 punch KO power at his peak, and Lewis WOULD be driven back.

[Smokin'Joe]

Ali's agility in fixed fights with Liston? Or his agility against Doug Jones and Henry Cooper?

Doug Jones was an early fight for Ali, and Henry Cooper caught him so what? It happens everyday to fighters around the world. It happend to Lewis twice, but the catch is, he didn't get up. and yes Ali's fights VS Liston are good comparisons (fixed? ok.). Liston had the relativly same reach, power, and probobly more speed than Lewis, and got circles danced around him.

[Jbuz]

Ali UD. Too fast. That's as deep as I'm gonna go, these matchups have been done too many times.

[Holmes' Jab]

Lewis could potentially give him fits, however I think Ali's ring smarts and movement would eventually allow him to win a decision (though he could well be dropped during the fight)

Dancing Pre-Vietnam Ali: Wins, by wide UD. Boxing and moving.
Early mid-70's Ali: Wins a more close decision (9-6 in rounds)

[Amsterdam]

The fact remains that Tyson had trouble with a bigger guy who wouldn't be pushed around, and one who had a good jab to keep Tyson off. I think a guy like Lennox, and even a prime Holmes, had the ability to beat a prime Tyson.

I disagree on both counts. Lennox, it's absurd to feel that a fighter with a shaky chin, whom can be bullied about and outworked at times can beat a prime Tyson.

Holmes, a case can be made, but Holmes was not shot by any means and I feel a prime Holmes would have lasted a few rounds later, or would have lost a good UD.

[Holmes' Jab]

The fact remains that Tyson had trouble with a bigger guy who wouldn't be pushed around, and one who had a good jab to keep Tyson off. I think a guy like Lennox, and even a prime Holmes, had the ability to beat a prime Tyson.

Good post. I concur. :good

[Senya13]

Doug Jones was an early fight for Ali, and Henry Cooper caught him so what?
Because he has nothing to brag about in first part of his career.
As for post-exile Ali, his legs and his agility have diminished so much, that I don't see any other result than a KO win for Lewis, Ali was there to be hit whenever Lewis chose to.

Liston had the relativly same reach, power, and probobly more speed than Lewis, and got circles danced around him.
Lewis was a much better boxer than Liston, more skilled, better footwork, harder hitter (although his jab is less powerful than Sonny's, but his right hand is better), less predictable than Liston.

[Sizzle]

I don't see Ali having too many problems with Lewis - Lewis would be too frustrated trying to establish his jab, that he wouldn't be able to get set, much like Liston. Ali was too fast, his reflexes were too sharp, and used the ring too well for Lewis - I think Lewis would steal a few rounds early on, if he pressed the action while Ali took it easy (Much like his matchup against Ernie Terrell) but Lewis would tire down the stretch and end up suffering a relatively wide UD to the boxer with better conditioning, spirit, speed and footwork.

I don't think Ali could make Lewis "respect" him with his power, like some have suggested, I'm still not buying the Lennox Lewis "china chin" theory, but I don't think Lewis was able to apply the sort of pressure neccessary to defeat Ali.

Oh, and I don't think Lewis is neccessarily better than Liston, not the case at all in my opinion, but I think Lewis would trouble Ali to a greater extent partially because he was put together a lot better psychologically than Liston. Lewis may have lacked some heart, but he was not nearly as messed up in the mind as Liston. Ali was a bad stylistic matchup for Liston and thus he crumbled.

[Sizzle]

The fact remains that Tyson had trouble with a bigger guy who wouldn't be pushed around, and one who had a good jab to keep Tyson off. I think a guy like Lennox, and even a prime Holmes, had the ability to beat a prime Tyson.

The jab theory is rubbish. Tyson only had troubles with a strong effective jab when
a) he abandoned his own jab when making his way inside
b) he abandoned his head movement, and
c) he abandoned roadwork among other things which made him flatfooted and easier to hit alot quicker in a bout.

At this point Tyson relied on "busting" his way into range against his opponents and looking for one big shot to end or change the fight. This was not the case in the prime of Tysons career though, as I think is evident from the footage.

In fact, I would say Pinklon Thomas and Larry Holmes offered two of the best jabs Tyson came across in his career - And he was a master of slipping the jab, getting inside and bombing his opponents. And if you threw the jab lazily, a la Carl Williams, he could counter it directly and end the fight in an instant.

Tyson was excellent at working off the jab of his opponent to mount his own offense.

[Holmes' Jab]

Not a prime Tyson, Tyson would blast him in 3 rounds or less peak/peak. The difference here is that Tyson does possess 1 punch KO power at his peak, and Lewis WOULD be driven back.

Peak-period was a superb fighter, however he did have a couple of off-colour nights (Yes, even in his '86-88 hayday)- Witness the mediocre Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker standing up to him and going the distance.

Take this into account and you start to wonder what a class above those guys type fighter (ie: Lewis, Holyfield) would have done on said nights. Even Tyson at his finest would be tested against Lewis. Saying Lewis would quite simply be blasted out prime-for-prime is wide of the mark, in my view.

[George W Hedge]

Ali v Lewis.... primes.

Ali by ud.

I cant see lennox landing enough big shots to wear Ali down late on & Ali (at his best defensively when faced with danger) wont lose to anyone taking 1 shot.

I see Ali starting like he did v clev williams building up a decent lead after 5 or 6 rds but once it was clear lewis is in it for the distance, Ali paces himself using his brain + loads of lateral movement like vs terrell.

I see Ali having to concede a few rds in order to put on his usual championship rds strong finish... all in all lewis does better than williams & Terrell but still loses about.... 10-5 or 11-4.

speed & stamina win this 1 for the greatest.

:good

[Rock0052]

Lewis either stops him, or Ali will win a woefully boring UD that, if the fight happened nowadays, would get him only slightly more love and respect as Corey Spinks.

[ironchamp]

Lewis vs. Ali?

Much like Norton this would be stylitically an uphill battle for Ali....

I think a fight with Lewis given his skill and size advantages would for force Ali to fight uncomfortably the whole night unable to do enough to win decisively.

Ali may take a decision but it would most certainly be a disputed one.

[hopkinsfan07]

this is silly Lewis isent even near Ali's level

[McGrain]

this is silly Lewis isent even near Ali's level

I disagree but let's suppose you're right - i would say that Norton wasn't, either.

Lewis is bigger, MORE patient, stronger, hits harder, is a better boxer.

[Smokin'Joe]

Because he has nothing to brag about in first part of his career.
As for post-exile Ali, his legs and his agility have diminished so much, that I don't see any other result than a KO win for Lewis, Ali was there to be hit whenever Lewis chose to.

Nothing to brag about? Who's ass didn't he whoop in his early career? And you don't think boxing the ears off of a prime Sonny Liston is anything to brag about? I beg to diffa sir.


Lewis was a much better boxer than Liston, more skilled, better footwork, harder hitter (although his jab is less powerful than Sonny's, but his right hand is better), less predictable than Liston.

Lewis might have been a better boxer, but he was just as slow as Liston and did not hit harder than either Liston or Foreman, both of whom whacked Ali with their best shots to no avail.

Lewis is to ponderous, and as far as his excellent patience goes as someone mentioned, he would be waiting for opportunites that would be out the window before he had time to react.

Ali's style is all wrong for him.

[hopkinsfan07]

I disagree but let's suppose you're right - i would say that Norton wasn't, either.

Lewis is bigger, MORE patient, stronger, hits harder, is a better boxer.

he thought Norton after his prison stuff in there first 2 and was quite past it in the 3rd fight

[Senya13]

Ali may get knocked down by a Lewis right hand but he isn't staying down.
He got almost KTFO by Henry Cooper, European mediocre cruiserweight.

[Senya13]

And you don't think boxing the ears off of a prime Sonny Liston is anything to brag about?
Anyone can see both fights were a fix. Where are any signs of injured shoulder in the 1st fight during the rounds prior to his retirement?

Lewis might have been a better boxer, but he was just as slow as Liston and did not hit harder than either Liston or Foreman, both of whom whacked Ali with their best shots to no avail.
Watch the film again before making claims about Lewis being as slow as Liston. Liston was plodding forward slowly most of the time, behind the jab. Lewis is at least twice faster on feet and hands. Foreman with his looping punches which anyone can see 5 secs before he throws them, and has enough time to go pour himself a cup of coffee while he is throwing them, still had Ali out on his feet a couple of times. Lewis wasn't as slow and as predictable and as inaccurate with his punches as was Foreman. They are not even comparable.

Lewis is to ponderous, and as far as his excellent patience goes as someone mentioned, he would be waiting for opportunites that would be out the window before he had time to react.
Lewis might be ponderous when he has something in front of him that he sees as a danger. He has nothing to be afraid of a slapper like Ali. Unlike in fixed fights with Liston, with Lewis he won't be able to run with both hands held low, as the very first time he does that, Lewis leaps forward and flattens him on his back for the full count. Ali's lack of defense and lack of punching power is all wrong against someone like Lewis.

[NickHudson]

The only Norton fight where Ali was in any sort of shape was the second, in 1973.

As this is a good 6 years past Ali's best performance, and 9 years after he first became champ it might be a bit misleading to use it as evidence...

Lewis is also slower, has less stamina, a more open defence and is more prone to one punch KOs than Norton.

I disagree but let's suppose you're right - i would say that Norton wasn't, either.

Lewis is bigger, MORE patient, stronger, hits harder, is a better boxer.

[Senya13]

Now a journeyman like Norton, who Ali almost didn't train for for the 1st fight, as he was on his 'bum of the month' tour at the time, is faster (when was the last time you watched Norton and Lewis), with great defense (whenever Ali chose to jab him while dancing on his feet, he hit Norton right on the kisser without much trouble), and with great chin (that he forgot at home almost any time he fought somebody with above average punching power).

[NickHudson]

Senya,

Have watched plenty of both men. Lewis was one of the most ponderously slow HWs I have ever seen (he is good relative to his massive size, but in absolute terms he is still slow, certainly compared to Norton).

Norton had an unusual cross armed defence that covered much of his face. Conversely, Lewis held his left hand very low indeed and didnt cover his face.

Norton got smashed by a number of ATG huge hitters, but NOONE KOd him with a single punch...Lewis was KOd twice by a single punch from glorified sparring partners.

Over to you.

Now a journeyman like Norton, who Ali almost didn't train for for the 1st fight, as he was on his 'bum of the month' tour at the time, is faster (when was the last time you watched Norton and Lewis), with great defense (whenever Ali chose to jab him while dancing on his feet, he hit Norton right on the kisser without much trouble), and with great chin (that he forgot at home almost any time he fought somebody with above average punching power).

[Senya13]

Where exactly did Norton show speed? When he was plodding after Ali (when Ali desided to move, not just walk around flat-footed)? Prime Lewis (not the old one) was extremely fast for a guy of his size and for a heavyweight in general.
Norton's defense was primitive and worked against guys who's primary weapon is a jab, but even then he was hit with jab rather frequently I'd say.
Lewis was not KO'd by McCall, he got up before the count ended, but was not quite steady forcing the referee to stop it. Norton was stopped 4 times and dropped down even more times during his career. He had a glass jaw any time he faced a dangerous puncher. Lewis had either stopped or gone the distance with several dangerous punchers.

[fists of fury]

Earnie Terrel was comparable in height and reach to Lewis, and Ali had absolutely no problem landing on Terrel. Different fighter to Lewis, but the point I'm making is that Ali is not much smaller than Lewis. Quite a bit lighter sure, but in terms of height and reach Ali is still very much in Lewis' league.
I don't think the Norton fights have any relevance here, as Norton had something in his style that Ali just never solved.
What does Lewis ring that could trouble Ali? Well, he was well-schooled in boxing's nuances and had a long, successful amateur pedigree that many well-schooled fighters have.
Lewis also has patience and would probably not succumb to Ali's mind games. A good (if somewhat lazy at times) jab, good, no great, right hand laced with TnT. Power though, never bothered Ali. He fought many guys with a lot of power, and none of them ever really bothered him that much.

Ali? Well, there's that speed of hand and foot, amazing reflexes and the ability to judge distance like nobody else. I think Ali is an underrated puncher sometimes - he got some really tough cookies out of there, inlcuding Lyle, Bonavena, Frazier (indirectly) and Foreman. (Yes, we know about the heat, but Ali's punches had something to do with it too.)
Ali did not have heavy hands per se, but he had tremendous accuracy and timing and plenty of zip in his punches. He certainly had enough 'power' to make Lewis respect it.
The better ring general? I'd say Lewis, but Ali had the knack of making a guy fight his fight.
At the end of the day I go with Ali. Lewis brings a lot to the table, but he never fancied a jab in his face and Ali had a very good jab. Ali's workrate and speed see him through to a decision win.

[ChrisPontius]

Lewis was certainly not slow. He had very good handspeed. He easily outspeeds Liston and put better combinations together as well.

[Senya13]

The Terrell fight was discussed before, I think. Terrell used his jab very little, fighting an unusual fight for himself. They are in different classes with Lewis in most departments, whether it's skills or natural abilities. Lewis won't be walking forward passively behind a high guard and only start fighting in close. Plus, Terrell had a damaged eye early in the fight, so he had to basically fight Ali one-eyed. In all the Terrell fight gives us no hints whatsoever about what Lewis-Ali fight would be like.
Norton exploited a very simple thing in all three fights, with that step forward with a jab and protect against Ali's jab whenever Ali desided to throw it. How a "master" like Ali couldn't find antidote for it, is beyond understanding. Lewis was faster than Norton, and had longer reach, he'd be hitting Ali the same way Norton did all night long, and unlike Norton, he'd follow it up with something else, and uppercut or a cross. Ali never used his back hand to protect his head while throwing a jab, he always kept it low. And while throwing a jab, he stayed upright for a moment, he couldn't step back and lean away from a punch at such moments, or use body movement to avoid getting hit with a cross. Lewis will use his timing to calculate where Ali will be while throwing his jab, and step forward with a cross (one clean right cross to the chin of completely open Ali at such moments, and he's not getting up).
The guys with punching power that Ali fought were mediocre and predictable boxers. Both Foreman and Shavers were poorly skilled, not very clever. Still Foreman's slow heavy punches were enough to get Ali out on his feet, on his own admission. Lewis was a lot more accurate and sharp puncher than either, he didn't throw punches with a hope of them landing, he looked for openings or he worked to create them, with footwork, feints or angles.
It's funny how you bring up "speed of hand and foot" and in the same section mention fights with Lyle, Bonavena, Frazier and Foreman. Ali defeated these fighters not with "speed of hand and foot" (which had considerably diminished by this point), but by toughness. But toughness is good when you get average punishment during long time, not when you get clocked by sharp accurate puncher where you are unprepared for the punch that hit you.
Ali's punching power was mediocre at best. He couldn't get many people to respect it, there's nothing he can hit Lewis with to make Lennox respect it, and he'll have a hard time trying to hit him in the first place at all.

[McGrain]

he thought Norton after his prison stuff in there first 2 and was quite past it in the 3rd fight


There is always some argument for putting 70's Ali in with a really difficult opponent though I agree 60's Ali is the better guy for Norton (and Lewis), so your point is valid. However, even accepting that Ali could be considered less good by the time of the Norton fights, Lewis is much the better fighter - so again, reletavley speaking, any notion that this is an easy one for Ali should be dismissed.

[McGrain]

The only Norton fight where Ali was in any sort of shape was the second, in 1973.

"Any sort" is an exageration in my view, but OK. And regardlss, Norton was still trouble for Ali in 2.

As this is a good 6 years past Ali's best performance, and 9 years after he first became champ it might be a bit misleading to use it as evidence...

It is evidence of Ali struggling against an opponent who was "not in his class" which was the relevant pont.

We could talk about Wenner or Patterson II instead of course.

Lewis is also slower, has less stamina, a more open defence and is more prone to one punch KOs than Norton.

Lewis may be more prone to one punch KO's than Norton but this is an old tune that just doesn't need to be played in a Lewis v Ali thread - Ali is not going to knock out Lewis with one punch.

[NickHudson]

I hear you McGrain, my response in defence of Norton was merely to redress the balance a little, as he had been completely dismissed as a comparitor to Lewis.

While I dont believe Norton to be a Great, he was competent, exceptionally well-trained and very competitive.


Lewis may be more prone to one punch KO's than Norton but this is an old tune that just doesn't need to be played in a Lewis v Ali thread - Ali is not going to knock out Lewis with one punch.[/quote]

[Smokin'Joe]

Anyone can see both fights were a fix. Where are any signs of injured shoulder in the 1st fight during the rounds prior to his retirement?

Of freakin course there was no shoulder injury man. Liston after seeing he could not even touch a BLIND Ali (explain that if it's a fix), it was a mere excuse so he could get out of the fight and not have to sustain even more of a beating. Look at Liston's face after the fight dude, does that look like a guy who was supposed to take a dive? Who would let themselves get their ass whooped for 6 rounds, blind the guy he was supposed to lose to (and try to knock him out while he is blinded), and then just quit because that's what the 'script' said. Nobody in a fixed fight would put themselves through that. Besides that it makes absolutley no sense. Your wrong here.


Watch the film again before making claims about Lewis being as slow as Liston. Liston was plodding forward slowly most of the time, behind the jab. Lewis is at least twice faster on feet and hands. Foreman with his looping punches which anyone can see 5 secs before he throws them, and has enough time to go pour himself a cup of coffee while he is throwing them, still had Ali out on his feet a couple of times. Lewis wasn't as slow and as predictable and as inaccurate with his punches as was Foreman. They are not even comparable.

I wasn't saying that he was. I was saying that Foreman, who hit much harder than Lewis, hit Ali with his best shots and Ali withstood them. Now if wrecking ball shots like Foreman's arent going to crack Ali's armor, then the 3 or 4 right hands Lewis would be able to throw are a round aren't either.
And I still disagree even IF Lewis is faster, it's not by much, certainly not enough to make a difference.


Lewis might be ponderous when he has something in front of him that he sees as a danger. He has nothing to be afraid of a slapper like Ali. Unlike in fixed fights with Liston, with Lewis he won't be able to run with both hands held low, as the very first time he does that, Lewis leaps forward and flattens him on his back for the full count. Ali's lack of defense and lack of punching power is all wrong against someone like Lewis.

You're basically throwing out random comments without any references. Lewis never faced anyone like Ali. Never faced a fast or slick guy, outside of Holyfield who fought more of an inside battle vs Lewis.
So how are you so sure that he wouldn't be a threat. Anyone with hands as fast as Ali is a threat. Through fatigue or not, Ali was the only man to ever stop Formman, who's chin was just a little bit better than Lewis's:roll: . Also I believe he was the only man to stop Bonevena, somthing Frazier couldn't do in 25 rounds of boxing. Not bad for a slapper eh? or are these fights fixed to I wonder?:yep

On that note Lewis's chin isn't exactly made of the highest quality material my friend. McCall and Rahman weren't even known as punchers untill they dented ol' Lewis chin. Ali might not have been able to pack as quite a powerful punch as those 2 in one whallop, but it would be the better tecnique, speed, and volume that would do it.

I don't really see where you are going with this because the proofs all there. Ali dances circles around the Big Brit in a boring 15 round UD.

[Senya13]

Liston after seeing he could not even touch a BLIND Ali (explain that if it's a fix),
That's the point. Someone like Liston couldn't put to sleep a virtually blind person? As Stanislavskiy said "I don't believe it". Or, quoting you:
it makes absolutley no sense.

I was saying that Foreman, who hit much harder than Lewis,
Foreman's punches were heavier, but they weren't harder, if you know what I mean. Foreman scored very few one-punch knockdowns or knockouts. He couldn't convert his raw power into power of impact properly, not enough handspeed/accuracy/timing.

hit Ali with his best shots and Ali withstood them.
Very few of his punches to the head actually land, and those that did, were softened/amortized.

Now if wrecking ball shots like Foreman's arent going to crack Ali's armor, then the 3 or 4 right hands Lewis would be able to throw are a round aren't either.
There offense was completely different. Lewis wasn't trying to just hurt you, wear you down, he tried to score effectively, inflict as much damage as he could with as few power punches as possible, he was a boxer-puncher more than a slugger/power-puncher young Foreman was.

And I still disagree even IF Lewis is faster, it's not by much, certainly not enough to make a difference.
The difference is clear on film. I have almost complete Lewis career (only one fight missing; plus several his amateur fights) and over a dozen of Liston fights, it's clear as daylight Lewis was considerably faster with hands and on feet.

So how are you so sure that he wouldn't be a threat. Anyone with hands as fast as Ali is a threat.
How many punches did Ali need to knock people down or out? How many clean knockouts did he score with 1 or 2-3 punches? How many times he was unable to rid of opponents at all or it took him a lot of rounds and a lot of punishment to stop his opponents, who were not known for having a solid chin?

Through fatigue or not, Ali was the only man to ever stop Formman, who's chin was just a little bit better than Lewis's.
Ali landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses to Foreman's chin, George just kept going forward. Only after Foreman punched himself out, Ali was able to put him down.

Also I believe he was the only man to stop Bonevena, somthing Frazier couldn't do in 25 rounds of boxing.
Frazier was a swarmer, also with heavy, but not very hard punch. How many 1 or 2-3 punch knockdowns or knockouts can you remember from Frazier? Not counting the examples, where he previously wore the opponent down with bunches of punches.

Ali might not have been able to pack as quite a powerful punch as those 2 in one whallop, but it would be the better tecnique, speed, and volume that would do it.
Sorry, but Ali had tens of times to showcase such ability, but failed miserably.

Ali dances circles around the Big Brit in a boring 15 round UD.
Lewis exploits Ali's flawed defense, like several other fighters did, who were much inferior to Lewis in both skills and power, and puts him to sleep.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Senya you forget Lewis lost to two bums. You can make fun of Ali getting knocked down by Cooper but what happened the next round? What happened the round after Lewis got knocked down by McCall and Rahman? Let's not forget Lewis is the only top 10 heavyweight to lose to a heavyweight not in the top 50 twice in his prime. If anyone gets knocked out it will be Lewis.
We never saw Ali on the ground for a 10 count but I have seen Lewis twice looking at the ceiling for a 10 count.

Lewis chin was pathetic. A 40 year old out of shape Larry Holmes was not hurt by Mercer or McCall but lewis was knocked out by McCall and hurt badly by Mercer Foreman seemed to hold up pretty good against Briggs but Lewis was badly hurt in the first round

If your gonna say Ali-Liston 1 was a fix I'm gonna say McCall-Lewis 2 was a obvious fix
as well.

[Senya13]

We saw Ali hurt just as badly by a European mediocrity, as Lewis was hurt by McCall. We saw a mediocre journeyman Sonny Banks put Ali down. Both are far inferior to McCall and Rahman, as boxers or punchers.
We didn't see it, but we know about it where Ali was knocked senseless twice in the same round by old retired former middleweight Jimmy Ellis.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Manny Stewart ranks Ali ahead of Lewis.
We all know trainers are always biased towards their fighters. You will never hear Leonard Ellerbee say SRL was better then Floyd

[quintonjacksonfan]

Senya the point is Ali knocked out Copper in the next round and beat Banks.
Lewis was on queer street against McCall. If the fight was allowed to continue he would of been finished within 10 seconds. if McCall did not take a dive he would of knocked out Lewis again. He had his hands down and Lewis couldn't even dent his chin.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Senya you do realize a fighter doesn't lose a fight by getting knocked down. It's what you do after the knockdown that matters. Ali stopped Cooper the following round and also knocked out Banks. The only one who got knocked out after Lewis was knocked down was Lewis himself. Senya I don't think your wrong I just don't think you understand the rules in boxing. You don't lose a fight when you get knocked down once.

[McGrain]

I hear you McGrain, my response in defence of Norton was merely to redress the balance a little, as he had been completely dismissed as a comparitor to Lewis.

Yeah, fair shout.

[Senya13]

Ali knocked out Cooper? When and where?

[quintonjacksonfan]

Cooper knocked down Ali in the fourth round and Ali stopped him in the 5th
I saw Rahman knockdown Lewis in the fifth round but my DVD was scratched so I couldn't watch the rest of the fight. Senya if you can kindly tell me what Lewis did in the sixth round it
would be much appreciated

[Senya13]

Ali didn't stop Cooper. Referee stopped the fight because of terrible cuts on Cooper's face.

[Stonehands89]

Ali didn't stop Cooper. Referee stopped the fight because of terrible cuts on Cooper's face.

Oh come on. Who do you think slashed Cooper's face to ribbons? Angelo Dundee? Ali stopped Cooper.

Stop torturing logic.

[Stonehands89]

Lewis would indeed present problems to Ali -particularly the latter version. For purposes of the argument, let's say that it is 1967 Ali. Lewis would be well-advised to apply serious pressure and to forego that hold and jab style that he adopted later in his career.

Frazier beat Ali with constant pressure and a good left hook that exploited Ali's technical deficiencies (most glaring: dropping the right after throwing the jab). Pressure fighters have the best chance of dealing with rythym fighters and Ali was the quintessential rythym fighter.

I don't think that it would be worth it for Lewis to fight tall. The height advantage and reach advantage are not significant enough and Ali's blinding speed and mobillity would make Lewis look like Frankenstein. Lewis would have to emphasize the strength and power advantage and fight small.

Lewis was strong enough to get close and apply pressure. His chin was good enough to take risks in there. He hit very hard -harder than anyone except for Liston (who didn't train) and Foreman (who fought stupidly). The version of Lewis that fought Mercer (1996) would have the best chance. He never showed better technical skills and was throwing shots to the head and body that were beautifully destructive. Ali would feel those shots more than Mercer.

Critical point: Lewis must not allow Ali to establish his game. If that happens, the conclusion becomes predictable. Lewis would be well-advised to jab hard from long range at first just to see if he can outjab Ali. Not sure he could, but his jab is stronger and 2 inches longer. He should jab at Ali's chest to disallow him from setting himself. Behind that kind of jab, he steps in with short hooks to the ribs and the head. When Ali starts to spin or angle out, hook him hard in that direction and pivot at him.

He should step in and throw an overhand the moment Ali starts to shuffle.

Lewis has a chance with Steward who is a master strategist. If Futch is an advisor, then Lewis chances increase.

Prediction? Ali in a close but UD.

[McGrain]

Lewis has a chance with Steward who is a master strategist. If Futch is an advisor, then Lewis chances increase.

Prediction? Ali in a close but UD.


Stonehands strikes again.

Good post bro.

[MoneyPunch]

Lewis never performed well against guys who could establish their jab. and Alis jab was not only better, it was much, much faster.
Also, people are making a big thing of Lewis' strength, well Ali was hardly thrown about by Liston and Foreman, was he?!?!

Ali beats Lewis very comfortably.

[Robbi]

Ali rates ahead of Lewis as an all time great heavyweight. Not even close in my eyes. Getting revenge over fighters like Frazier and Norton is far more impressive than doing the same to McCall and Rahman. Ali may not have beaten every fighter he faced, but his era was way too strong for any other heavyweight great to make an arguement, including Lewis.

Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. Arguably all these guys are top 10 heavyweight greats.

One question I pose for all you guys. Exactly when was Lewis in his prime?.

I think from around 2000 until 2003. He peaked late, even though he seemed to be more athletic and trim during the early-mid 90's.

[ironchamp]

Manny Stewart ranks Ali ahead of Lewis.
We all know trainers are always biased towards their fighters. You will never hear Leonard Ellerbee say SRL was better then Floyd


Manny Stewart also acknowledges that for Ali to beat Lewis it would be an uphill battle and as much as Lewis didnt quite fancy jabbers Ali didnt like them either.

To be quite honest, this match up will always be a close match up.

[Robbi]

Lewis would indeed present problems to Ali -particularly the latter version. For purposes of the argument, let's say that it is 1967 Ali. Lewis would be well-advised to apply serious pressure and to forego that hold and jab style that he adopted later in his career.

Frazier beat Ali with constant pressure and a good left hook that exploited Ali's technical deficiencies (most glaring: dropping the right after throwing the jab). Pressure fighters have the best chance of dealing with rythym fighters and Ali was the quintessential rythym fighter.

I don't think that it would be worth it for Lewis to fight tall. The height advantage and reach advantage are not significant enough and Ali's blinding speed and mobillity would make Lewis look like Frankenstein. Lewis would have to emphasize the strength and power advantage and fight small.

Lewis was strong enough to get close and apply pressure. His chin was good enough to take risks in there. He hit very hard -harder than anyone except for Liston (who didn't train) and Foreman (who fought stupidly). The version of Lewis that fought Mercer (1996) would have the best chance. He never showed better technical skills and was throwing shots to the head and body that were beautifully destructive. Ali would feel those shots more than Mercer.

Critical point: Lewis must not allow Ali to establish his game. If that happens, the conclusion becomes predictable. Lewis would be well-advised to jab hard from long range at first just to see if he can outjab Ali. Not sure he could, but his jab is stronger and 2 inches longer. He should jab at Ali's chest to disallow him from setting himself. Behind that kind of jab, he steps in with short hooks to the ribs and the head. When Ali starts to spin or angle out, hook him hard in that direction and pivot at him.

He should step in and throw an overhand the moment Ali starts to shuffle.

Lewis has a chance with Steward who is a master strategist. If Futch is an advisor, then Lewis chances increase.

Prediction? Ali in a close but UD.

Lewis was still very much a work in progress under Emanuel Steward when he fought Mercer in 1996. I'm pretty sure Steward and Lewis would clarify this themselves.

Lewis was an average fighter inside, and only during certain moments did he like to be there. Like stepping in to throw an uppercut. It was not an area of his game where he felt comfortable. He always liked to have a bit distance to dictate his opponent with the jab, and long right hand.

Holyfield took 6 rounds during the rematch to get inside Lewis' reach, and when he did, he had success. I'm not saying Ali was better inside than Lewis, because Ali himself liked to tie his opponents up inside then push them off to create distance again to be effective. You could say that Ali had success against Foreman inside at times, but only when he leaned back on the ropes to get distance and leverage on his punches, with the right hand hitting its target many times.

Ali was caught many times from the outside by Norton during their first fight, as he timed his jabs to perfection while advancing. I feel Lewis would have success if he boxed aggressively against Ali, but not necessarily looking to get close. Timing would be the key for Lewis against Ali.

[Senya13]

Oh come on. Who do you think slashed Cooper's face to ribbons? Angelo Dundee? Ali stopped Cooper.

Stop torturing logic.
Cooper was known as an easy cutter. Ali couldn't knock out a fly that night with his slaps, to stop Cooper he needed either baseball bat or a gun.

[quintonjacksonfan]

It only took Rahman one slap to KO lewis

[Doppleganger]

Lewis would indeed present problems to Ali -particularly the latter version. For purposes of the argument, let's say that it is 1967 Ali. Lewis would be well-advised to apply serious pressure and to forego that hold and jab style that he adopted later in his career.

Frazier beat Ali with constant pressure and a good left hook that exploited Ali's technical deficiencies (most glaring: dropping the right after throwing the jab). Pressure fighters have the best chance of dealing with rythym fighters and Ali was the quintessential rythym fighter.

I don't think that it would be worth it for Lewis to fight tall. The height advantage and reach advantage are not significant enough and Ali's blinding speed and mobillity would make Lewis look like Frankenstein. Lewis would have to emphasize the strength and power advantage and fight small.

Lewis was strong enough to get close and apply pressure. His chin was good enough to take risks in there. He hit very hard -harder than anyone except for Liston (who didn't train) and Foreman (who fought stupidly). The version of Lewis that fought Mercer (1996) would have the best chance. He never showed better technical skills and was throwing shots to the head and body that were beautifully destructive. Ali would feel those shots more than Mercer.

Critical point: Lewis must not allow Ali to establish his game. If that happens, the conclusion becomes predictable. Lewis would be well-advised to jab hard from long range at first just to see if he can outjab Ali. Not sure he could, but his jab is stronger and 2 inches longer. He should jab at Ali's chest to disallow him from setting himself. Behind that kind of jab, he steps in with short hooks to the ribs and the head. When Ali starts to spin or angle out, hook him hard in that direction and pivot at him.

He should step in and throw an overhand the moment Ali starts to shuffle.

Lewis has a chance with Steward who is a master strategist. If Futch is an advisor, then Lewis chances increase.

Prediction? Ali in a close but UD.

Good post and I agree with almost all of your analysis and prediction. If they fought 3 times I could see Lewis sneaking one. I would actually pick Lewis over the later version Ali but prime Ali, the earlier version, is too fast and smart for Lewis.

[Senya13]

Unlike mediocre European journeyman Henry Cooper, Hasim Rahman was a ranked contender.

[quintonjacksonfan]

You make a great point if Ali lost to Cooper
Senya you don't seem to understand a knockdown means nothing if you get up and win the fight. The reason you might be confused is because Lewis never got up to win a fight
That might be why you think a fight is over when someone gets knocked down

[Senya13]

You don't seem to understand what a knockdown from unranked European mediocrity means, where your trainer has to save you by ripping your glove open and thus giving you extra time for recovering.

[quintonjacksonfan]

That's hillarious that you have to pick an ali win to find flaws in his game.

Cooper might be able to take Lewis out. It wouldn't be the first time he lost to a fighter

not in the top 50 Heavyweights of all-time

[Senya13]

Unlike Clay, Lewis didn't have the help of a trainer to save him from a knockout vs McCall. And unlike Ali, Lewis, even when he was old, didn't get knocked senseless twice in the same round by old retired sparring-partner (that means BIG padded gloves) who started his career as a middleweight.

[quintonjacksonfan]

I agree with you a 40 year old Lewis beats a 40 year old Ali.

Senya I think where both right. This whole time I thought you were foolish to say

a Prime Lewis could beat a Prime Ali but you were saying old Lewis beats Old Ali

I have to agree with you on that

Prime versus Prime Lewis doesn't have a chance. Ali never lost in his prime and

Lewis lost twice in his prime. Even if the Cooper round had 2 minutes left in it

Ali would of found a way to win Dundee is just trying to

make himself out to be more important then he is.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Senya name another top 10 heavyweight that got knocked out by two bums

Don't spin it now I want fighters names not explainations and excuses

[quintonjacksonfan]

Briggs had Lewis in bad trouble . Briggs couldn't hurt the fat and slow

version of Foreman but in minutes he hurts Lewis. The same Foreman who Ali

knocked out had no trouble taking punches from Briggs. I laugh everytime I

watch that bum Briggs give Lewis all he could handle

[Senya13]

Name me another top 10 heavyweight that was stopped by old retired former middleweight, wearing sparring gloves.

[quintonjacksonfan]

You lost the prime versus prime argument so you have to change it to old Ali

I agree the old Ali that fought Holmes and Berbick sucked. Put it this way

I would take both McCall and Rahman over the old Ali that's how bad he was

[Senya13]

Prime Lewis didn't get a boxing lesson from Doug Jones, or got knocked down by Billy Daniels and Henry Cooper, he didn't win his title in a fixed fight, he didn't defend it in another fixed fight, and he ddn't defend it afterwards against several mediocre or injured fighters.

[Smokin'Joe]

That's the point. Someone like Liston couldn't put to sleep a virtually blind person? As Stanislavskiy said "I don't believe it".

Exactly. Why would someone who's supposivly throwing a fight, blind the other fighter and try desperatly to knock him out? You were right to quote me cause it don't make since my man.



Foremans punches were heavier, but they weren't harder, if you know what I mean. Foreman scored very few one-punch knockdowns or knockouts. He couldn't convert his raw power into power of impact properly, not enough handspeed/accuracy/timing.

you are the first person I've ever met that would argue this. But I will agree with you, Foreman did possess raw power and he did not need any of that other crap to make use of it.

Did you ever see Lewis do to ANYONE, as Foreman had done to Frazier? Norton? Cooney? Lyle? Moorer? No, Lewis never ever displayed such force or power in any of his ko's. There is a reason Foreman is considered the heaviest puncher of all time and not Lewis.


Very few of his punches to the head actually land, and those that did, were softened/amortized.

I thought Ali had a flawed defense? Even against somebody who does telegraph like Foreman, to lay on the ropes and repel or slip punches of that calibre and take the shots that land is more impressive than anything Lewis ever did


There offense was completely different. Lewis wasn't trying to just hurt you, wear you down, he tried to score effectively, inflict as much damage as he could with as few power punches as possible, he was a boxer-puncher more than a slugger/power-puncher young Foreman was.

exactly you're proving my point. In order to beat Ali you must apply constant pressure, none of which is even hinted at in you're analyisis of his style. Not only that, Lewis was not a pressure fighter. He never was never will be. He was a cautious, calculating, boxer puncher. Bad match up my brotha.


The difference is clear on film. I have almost complete Lewis career (only one fight missing; plus several his amateur fights) and over a dozen of Liston fights, it's clear as daylight Lewis was considerably faster with hands and on feet.

Possibly he is, but it's not enough to be a deciding factor, and not really a sound argument to debate about.


How many punches did Ali need to knock people down or out? How many clean knockouts did he score with 1 or 2-3 punches? How many times he was unable to rid of opponents at all or it took him a lot of rounds and a lot of punishment to stop his opponents, who were not known for having a solid chin?

Ali didn't have to possess dynamite hands to put people away. His mixture of handspeed, footwork, and agility did all that. Further more You're not looking at prime Ali 64-67. who was something like 29-0 with 24 knockouts, just a good of ko ratio if not better than Lewis's. Nice Ko resume no matter how he took them out, he still did it. You're trying to bend the rules and make it sound as if a stoppage isn't a stoppage if it aint a flat out ko, but Ali possessed so many tools outside power that is simply wasn't a problem for him.


Ali landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses to Foreman's chin, George just kept going forward. Only after Foreman punched himself out, Ali was able to put him down.

Lewis was landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses on an equally fatigued Ray Mercer, and absolutly could NOT put him down. And the fight even lasted longer!


Frazier was a swarmer, also with heavy, but not very hard punch. How many 1 or 2-3 punch knockdowns or knockouts can you remember from Frazier? Not counting the examples, where he previously wore the opponent down with bunches of punches.

Ugh.......Foster, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Zygliwits, Machen, should I go on?

But what do you meen 'without wearing them down'??? How many right off the bat ko's did Lewis have where he didn't have to 'wear down' his opponent in some way. Nearly all ko's are a form of that, one fighter somehow 'wearing down' the other then stopping them. Very few right off the bat ko's such as Foreman-Frazier 1 and Klitcko-Sanders type ko's happen, very rare. How many does lewis have?


Sorry, but Ali had tens of times to showcase such ability, but failed miserably.

Well I'm sorry, but Lewis had just a few times to showcase he chin and it failed EVERY TIME. Gimmee a break, you trying to degrade Ali's skill just because he (according to you) had less than an average HW punch? Get real. I'd say Lewis' dentable chin is far more a factor. Let us not forget Ali makes up for this with speed, agility, and raw talent. I'd take a fighter with a weak punch and all that, tha, a strong one witha dubious chin anyday.


Lewis exploits Ali's flawed defense, like several other fighters did, who were much inferior to Lewis in both skills and power, and puts him to sleep.

What several other fighters exploited Ali's so called 'flawed defense'? Lemme guess......Jones and Cooper right? Sure they landed good ones just like Rahman and McCall did. But Ali got up and won.




Did Lewis?:good

[quintonjacksonfan]

Senya I'm gonna pay Lewis a compliment. His chin doesn't have as much glass as Roy Jones

There are chins worse then Lewis but his was not great

[McGrain]

. The only champion with a worse chin then Lewis

is Roy Jones.


It seems unlikely to me that the Heavyweight champ of the world could have a genuinely dodgey chin.

How does he absorb shots from the likes of Tyson, Klitschko, Hollyfield etc. etc., with a weak chin?

[Smokin'Joe]

And if you want to use age vs age Senya, lets turn it around.

Ali won the title when he was somthing like 21. Lewis wasn't even a professional fighter untill he was 24! So I guess we can say since a 40 year old Lewis beats a 40 year old Ali. Then what do you think a 21 Year old Ali would do to Lewis who's 3 years older and still an amateur? lol

[quintonjacksonfan]

Tyson was 15 years past his prime. How did McBribe take his punches

Holyfield was never that big a puncher to begin with at heavyweight and in my opinion was never

the same after the Bowe trilogy. People thought he was back because he beat the overated

Mike Tyson Klitschko did hurt Lewis and if the fight would of continued I think Lewis would

of been knocked out. Lewis never beat a Hall of Famer in his prime but lost to a crack addict in his

prime

[MoneyPunch]

Lewis was still very much a work in progress under Emanuel Steward when he fought Mercer in 1996. I'm pretty sure Steward and Lewis would clarify this themselves.

Lewis was an average fighter inside, and only during certain moments did he like to be there. Like stepping in to throw an uppercut. It was not an area of his game where he felt comfortable. He always liked to have a bit distance to dictate his opponent with the jab, and long right hand.

Holyfield took 6 rounds during the rematch to get inside Lewis' reach, and when he did, he had success. I'm not saying Ali was better inside than Lewis, because Ali himself liked to tie his opponents up inside then push them off to create distance again to be effective. You could say that Ali had success against Foreman inside at times, but only when he leaned back on the ropes to get distance and leverage on his punches, with the right hand hitting its target many times.

Ali was caught many times from the outside by Norton during their first fight, as he timed his jabs to perfection while advancing. I feel Lewis would have success if he boxed aggressively against Ali, but not necessarily looking to get close. Timing would be the key for Lewis against Ali.

Ali was caught many times from distance v Norton, but lets be honest, the Ali 2nd time around, was not the same talent.
He was smarter possibly, but not as gifted athletically, and he'd, IMO, have battered Norton earlier in his career.

Lewis was being dictated to by Frank Bruno, fight 1 v Rahman and by Mercer, because they could jab with Lewis.
I really think the speed differential ofsets anything Lewis has to hurt Ali, as he wouldnt get to use it.

Ali was also strong enough to tie Lewis up, and not be hanhandled in the clinch, as Lennox liked to do.

I honestly could see Lewis beating Ali if they fought 10 times, if we are talking both fighters at their optimum.

[McGrain]

Tyson was 15 years past his prime. How did McBribe take his punches

Holyfield was never that big a puncher to begin with at heavyweight.

Klitschko did hurt Lewis and if the fight would of continued I think Lewis would

of been knocked out


I don't think it's sensible to try to discredit every puncher a dominant heavyweght champ has faced.

I also don't think is sensible to speculate about a fight that ended decisivley in favour of one fighter as being a robbery against the other.

[quintonjacksonfan]

The version of Tyson that Lewis fought was no better then the version

that faced Williams and McBride. The version of Holyfield that Lewis fought

was slightly better then the one Toney faced. Lewis was in no hurry

to give Klitschko a rematch either

[Smokin'Joe]

That's hillarious that you have to pick an ali win to find flaws in his game.

Cooper might be able to take Lewis out. It wouldn't be the first time he lost to a fighter

not in the top 50 Heavyweights of all-time

I agree, at least Cooper was a reknown puncher and a champion at that! Rahman wasn't even considered a threat and McCall was only known as a Tyson sparring partner. Their reputations as punchers are direct results of their wins over Lewis.

I disagree on the earlier statement though. To Lewis's credit, Holyfield was much much more formidable than when he faced Toney. And Tyson was in much better shape mentally as well as physically when he fought Lewis.

[McGrain]

The version of Tyson that Lewis fought was no better then the version

that faced Williams and McBride. The version of Holyfield that Lewis fought

was slightly better then the one Toney faced. Lewis was in no hurry

to give Klitschko a rematch either


Lewis retired after beating Klitschko.

If you're determined to discredit the versions of Tyson and Hollyfield that Lewis fought, so be it, I won't argue with you. Let's say it's true.

How does this detract from Lewis' chin in regards to all the big heavyweights who punched him hard in the face?

[Robbi]

It seems unlikely to me that the Heavyweight champ of the world could have a genuinely dodgey chin.

How does he absorb shots from the likes of Tyson, Klitschko, Hollyfield etc. etc., with a weak chin?

Apart from his KO losses, Lewis had an excellent chin. I can mind Holyfield, who we all know could pop pretty well as a heavyweight, smacked Lewis with a monster left hook inside during the 7th round, and Lewis never looked like going down.

He hardly looked like going down in his 10 war with Mercer either.

[quintonjacksonfan]

What about Briggs? The guy could not hurt Foreman but had Lewis badly hurt

a few minutes into the fight

[McGrain]

What about Briggs? The guy could not hurt Foreman but had Lewis badly hurt

a few minutes into the fight


For an elite heavyweight, Lewis had a less than stellar chin.

That's all.

[RAMPAGE0017]

The version of Tyson that Lewis fought was no better then the version

that faced Williams and McBride. The version of Holyfield that Lewis fought

was slightly better then the one Toney faced. Lewis was in no hurry

to give Klitschko a rematch either


Give me a break. :lol:


That wasn't the tune Tyson fans were whistling before this fight happened. Lewis put the nail in Tyson's coffin.. Williams and McBride just put him in the ground.

[Senya13]

Exactly. Why would someone who's supposivly throwing a fight, blind the other fighter and try desperatly to knock him out? You were right to quote me cause it don't make since my man.
Desperately try to knock him out? He had at least 3 full minutes to do that, and Liston couldn't land a single good clean punch on blind Clay? This is a lot more absurd (for anyone who knows what a wonderful fighter Liston was) than trying to persuade that that imitation of offense was real thing.

you are the first person I've ever met that would argue this. But I will agree with you, Foreman did possess raw power and he did not need any of that other crap to make use of it.
Why don't you tell about "that other crap" to Thomas Hearns and Gerald McClellan, neither of whom were originally known as big punchers? Even Earnie Shavers once said, that as he got older, it became more difficult to knock people out and so he actually was developing his punching skills, timing and accuracy, to keep his fearsome power.

Did you ever see Lewis do to ANYONE, as Foreman had done to Frazier? Norton? Cooney? Lyle? Moorer? No, Lewis never ever displayed such force or power in any of his ko's.
Ruddock. Golota. Briggs. Grant. Botha. Rahman II.

I thought Ali had a flawed defense?
Foreman was too uneducated and too overconfident in his power to even think about exploiting these flaws.

Even against somebody who does telegraph like Foreman, to lay on the ropes and repel or slip punches of that calibre and take the shots that land is more impressive than anything Lewis ever did
Ali took the punches to the body exceptionally well, there's no doubt about it. But to the head, he took very few clean punches, where other guys showed much better accuracy than Foreman. Yet even those not very clean punches were enough to get Ali senseless two times with only the ropes saving him from being flattened.

In order to beat Ali you must apply constant pressure, none of which is even hinted at in you're analyisis of his style.
I must have forgot how Jimmy Young applied constant pressure on Ali.

Not only that, Lewis was not a pressure fighter. He never was never will be. He was a cautious, calculating, boxer puncher.
These claims are so silly, I don't even know what to tell you. You gotta get more Lewis fights and watch them carefully, before ever claiming words like "never was". I'll spare you of public embarasment this time, but try to avoid making such mistakes in the future.

Possibly he is, but it's not enough to be a deciding factor, and not really a sound argument to debate about.
This thing is evident to anyone who has actually watched both fighters. It doesn't need sound arguments, it's common knowledge.

Ali didn't have to possess dynamite hands to put people away. His mixture of handspeed, footwork, and agility did all that.
If so, then stop claiming Ali's power would be a factor here. In which fight did a slapper wear Lennox Lewis down and eventually stopped him?

Further more You're not looking at prime Ali 64-67. who was something like 29-0 with 24 knockouts, just a good of ko ratio if not better than Lewis's.
Most of these KO's were against bums, plus several stoppages on cuts, where his slaps couldn't really hurt his opponents even once.

Nice Ko resume no matter how he took them out, he still did it.
Lamar Clark has one of the most impressive KO records in history at some point. But anyone who thinks he could knock out ranked fighters just as easily, eventually found out it was a false assumption.

Lewis was landed several tens of clean hooks and crosses on an equally fatigued Ray Mercer, and absolutly could NOT put him down.
Who was more fatigued at that point, Mercer (who has a better chin than Foreman) or Lewis?

Ugh.......Foster, Quarry, Ellis, Ali, Zygliwits, Machen, should I go on?
Glass-chinned Foster? That's a good one. Do you mind describing the other examples so we know they fit the conditions that were in my question? You may even name 1-3 punch KO wins against bums if that helps you.

But what do you meen 'without wearing them down'???
Being able to wear an opponent down with tons of punches and then being able to finish them off, doesn't represent a hard hitter. Real hard hitters don't need many punches to knock the opponent down or out. Frazier's punching power was just average. Henry Armstrong and Harry Greb stopped many opponents also, with they constant pressure, but nobody calls them big punchers for some reason. Joe Frazier was no different than them.

How many right off the bat ko's did Lewis have where he didn't have to 'wear down' his opponent in some way.
Ruddock, Golota, Grant are obvious examples. I could list several fights before he won the world title (against European level of opposition). That wouldn't help you, as Frazier doesn't have anything even against below World-level opposition.

Very few right off the bat ko's such as Foreman-Frazier 1 and Klitcko-Sanders type ko's happen, very rare.
Foreman-Frazier 1? What are you talking about?

but Lewis had just a few times to showcase he chin and it failed EVERY TIME.
Mercer. Bruno. Briggs. Klitschko. Holyfield.

Let us not forget Ali makes up for this with speed, agility, and raw talent.
He didn't make up for it to stop a glass-chinned Cooper or glass-chinned old injured Floyd Patterson. He couldn't even land any clean punches on 15-11-1 big and slow Duke Sabedong. He only narrowly outpointed Alonzo Johnson. He was lucky that Alex Miteff wasn't a big puncher, when he caught Clay with a right cross in the 2nd round. Sonny Banks punished him for overconfidence, dropping him with a long left hook. Billy Daniels had been ahead on points when the fight was stopped on cuts and Clay refused to give him a rematch, same as to Doug Jones a little later. Lavorante knocked the wind out of Clay with a couple of body shots, Clay grimaccing in pain and getting on a bicycle to avoid the troubles. He asked for a new Caddilac to get himself in the right mood for Doug Jones, and was doing silly predictions, but instead he blew it and got a boxing lesson (that right hand in the 1st round ought to teach him a lesson, but as it turned out in the next fight, it didn't) and barely escaped defeat (the referee in that bout was obviously a blind man though). They chose Henry Cooper next, who Clay called 'a tramp, a bum and a cripple'. Well that crippled bum put him on his own bum, so that he wasn't fully aware where he was and when the next round was going to be. Against, he was lucky that the fight was stopped on cuts, but not before Cooper got the first blood from Cassius' nostrils in the 1st round, so much for Clay's speed and agility.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Desperately try to knock him out? He had at least 3 full minutes to do that, and Liston couldn't land a single good clean punch on blind Clay? This is a lot more absurd (for anyone who knows what a wonderful fighter Liston was) than trying to persuade that that imitation of offense was real thing.


Why don't you tell about "that other crap" to Thomas Hearns and Gerald McClellan, neither of whom were originally known as big punchers? Even Earnie Shavers once said, that as he got older, it became more difficult to knock people out and so he actually was developing his punching skills, timing and accuracy, to keep his fearsome power.


Ruddock. Golota. Briggs. Grant. Botha. Rahman II.


Foreman was too uneducated and too overconfident in his power to even think about exploiting these flaws.


Ali took the punches to the body exceptionally well, there's no doubt about it. But to the head, he took very few clean punches, where other guys showed much better accuracy than Foreman. Yet even those not very clean punches were enough to get Ali senseless two times with only the ropes saving him from being flattened.


I must have forgot how Jimmy Young applied constant pressure on Ali.


These claims are so silly, I don't even know what to tell you. You gotta get more Lewis fights and watch them carefully, before ever claiming words like "never was". I'll spare you of public embarasment this time, but try to avoid making such mistakes in the future.


This thing is evident to anyone who has actually watched both fighters. It doesn't need sound arguments, it's common knowledge.


If so, then stop claiming Ali's power would be a factor here. In which fight did a slapper wear Lennox Lewis down and eventually stopped him?


Most of these KO's were against bums, plus several stoppages on cuts, where his slaps couldn't really hurt his opponents even once.


Lamar Clark has one of the most impressive KO records in history at some point. But anyone who thinks he could knock out ranked fighters just as easily, eventually found out it was a false assumption.


Who was more fatigued at that point, Mercer (who has a better chin than Foreman) or Lewis?


Glass-chinned Foster? That's a good one. Do you mind describing the other examples so we know they fit the conditions that were in my question? You may even name 1-3 punch KO wins against bums if that helps you.


Being able to wear an opponent down with tons of punches and then being able to finish them off, doesn't represent a hard hitter. Real hard hitters don't need many punches to knock the opponent down or out. Frazier's punching power was just average. Henry Armstrong and Harry Greb stopped many opponents also, with they constant pressure, but nobody calls them big punchers for some reason. Joe Frazier was no different than them.


Ruddock, Golota, Grant are obvious examples. I could list several fights before he won the world title (against European level of opposition). That wouldn't help you, as Frazier doesn't have anything even against below World-level opposition.


Foreman-Frazier 1? What are you talking about?


Mercer. Bruno. Briggs. Klitschko. Holyfield.


He didn't make up for it to stop a glass-chinned Cooper or glass-chinned old injured Floyd Patterson. He couldn't even land any clean punches on 15-11-1 big and slow Duke Sabedong. He only narrowly outpointed Alonzo Johnson. He was lucky that Alex Miteff wasn't a big puncher, when he caught Clay with a right cross in the 2nd round. Sonny Banks punished him for overconfidence, dropping him with a long left hook. Billy Daniels had been ahead on points when the fight was stopped on cuts and Clay refused to give him a rematch, same as to Doug Jones a little later. Lavorante knocked the wind out of Clay with a couple of body shots, Clay grimaccing in pain and getting on a bicycle to avoid the troubles. He asked for a new Caddilac to get himself in the right mood for Doug Jones, and was doing silly predictions, but instead he blew it and got a boxing lesson (that right hand in the 1st round ought to teach him a lesson, but as it turned out in the next fight, it didn't) and barely escaped defeat (the referee in that bout was obviously a blind man though). They chose Henry Cooper next, who Clay called 'a tramp, a bum and a cripple'. Well that crippled bum put him on his own bum, so that he wasn't fully aware where he was and when the next round was going to be. Against, he was lucky that the fight was stopped on cuts, but not before Cooper got the first blood from Cassius' nostrils in the 1st round, so much for Clay's speed and agility.



The boards of ESB cannot handle such ownage. :lol:

[ChrisPontius]

Briggs had Lewis in bad trouble . Briggs couldn't hurt the fat and slow

version of Foreman but in minutes he hurts Lewis. The same Foreman who Ali

knocked out had no trouble taking punches from Briggs. I laugh everytime I

watch that bum Briggs give Lewis all he could handle

I think Briggs' succes was more limited than you suggest it was.

Briggs landed a great left hook when Lewis was throwing a double jab, which shook him and made him stagger into the ropes, but his mind and legs were back right when hit the ropes. Briggs was going all out and all Lewis did was defend (who wouldn't?) and made it out of the round fresh.
In the second round he landed another left hook and that's all he did in the entire fight, from there on it was basically a heavy bag session for Lewis.

The difference between a punch from Briggs that landed is that the crowd went nuts whereas a flush right hand from Lewis on Briggs was met with silence. Add to that that Briggs goes all out without any regard for stamina after he lands one punch whereas Lewis clinically goes on with his job. That pretty much leads to Briggs' succes looking a lot larger than it actually was.


Those comparisons don't say much anyway. If Foreman did so much better against Briggs, then surely he wouldn't have lost one sided fights to Morisson and Holyfield who both were easily defeated by Lewis.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Party Boy I am not saying a 45 year old Foreman was better then Lewis

but his chin certainly was. I am also saying Lewis had the worst chin of

any Linear Heavyweight champion with the exception of Patterson and Moore

Ali could knock out Lewis. He knocked out Foreman who Briggs could not

hurt but Briggs had Lewis hurt badly in the first round Bottom line

Prime Ali versus Prime Lewis is a cakewalk for Ali.

Lewis came around at the perfect time. He beat two Hall of Famers both well past

their Prime. Ali beat 7 Hall of Famers four of them in their Prime.

[JIm Broughton]

I think this would be a tough fight for Ali, especially if Lewis comes in good shape and in the right frame of mind. Lewis would be the best technician Ali ever faced and his size and punch would be something Ali would have to be wary of as well. Lennox had a very good jab. Good enough to perhaps break Ali's rythym and make him suceptible to a big right hand. These would'nt be the wide looping shots that Foreman threw either. Lennox punched straight. Ali looked his best making guys like Frazier and Foreman swing wildly at him and then use his speed to get away and fire back. Against fighters like Young and Bugner and Norton, Ali did'nt look as spectacular. One of the reasons for this is each of these men used an effective JAB against Ali and fighters like Ali as well as holmes et al don't like to be jabbed back at. Look at Holmes/Williams-Holmes/Witherspoon and Ali/Norton-Ali/Bugner as examples of this. Also Lewis would'nt rush at Ali and swing blindly at him. Lewis was a very intelligent man inside and outside the ring which is why I see this fight shaping up like a chess match, a potentially boring one at that. Ali's speed would probably be the deciding factor and he would most likely take it by decision but he would have to be careful. Lewis could punch, and his shots came in straight behind a very good jab. Not wide and wild which always played into Ali's hands ala Foreman and if Ali could be decked by the likes of Cooper and Frazier and be given headaches by the likes of Norton and Young then it's not too crazy to suggest that a much bigger but equally skilled Lewis could spell trouble for the "Greatest" as well.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Lewis never fought anyone who had the speed of Ali

Who did Lewis ever beat that had any speed?

It wasn't Grant,Golota,Bruno,Ruddock,Briggs,Morrision, or the older verisons of Tyson or Holy

He would never catch the 67 version of Ali

[NickHudson]

This is a bit off topic, but I think it is worth repeating. When exactly was Lewis's prime?

I have noticed in many human athletic performance sports there is a 3 year peak when the athlete is at the top of their game. An ATG during this time exhibits an aura of invinciblity. Some examples:

Seb Coe 1979-1981. Half a dozen world records over 4 events, two of which have only been beaten by 1 man in the following third of a century, plus a stunning Olympic Gold medal.

Muhammad Ali 1964-1967. Balletic grace, elusiveness, cat-like reflexes, speed, stamina, toughness, resourcefullness and will-to-win. The ultimate fighting package.

Mike Tyson 1986-1989. Speed, explosive power, blistering 1 punch and combo KOs, incredible aura and fear factor.

I attach a lot of status to this phase when assessing ATGs.

So, when is Lewis peak? Is it the young, beautifully built athletic boxer than blew his opportunities in the early to mid 90s, or the immense, immovable sluggish later version with the tighter defence?

Ali rates ahead of Lewis as an all time great heavyweight. Not even close in my eyes. Getting revenge over fighters like Frazier and Norton is far more impressive than doing the same to McCall and Rahman. Ali may not have beaten every fighter he faced, but his era was way too strong for any other heavyweight great to make an arguement, including Lewis.

Liston, Frazier, and Foreman. Arguably all these guys are top 10 heavyweight greats.

One question I pose for all you guys. Exactly when was Lewis in his prime?.

I think from around 2000 until 2003. He peaked late, even though he seemed to be more athletic and trim during the early-mid 90's.

[ChrisPontius]

Party Boy I am not saying a 45 year old Foreman was better then Lewis

but his chin certainly was. I am also saying Lewis had the worst chin of

any Linear Heavyweight champion with the exception of Patterson and Moore

Ali could knock out Lewis. He knocked out Foreman who Briggs could not

hurt but Briggs had Lewis hurt badly in the first round Bottom line

Prime Ali versus Prime Lewis is a cakewalk for Ali.

Lewis came around at the perfect time. He beat two Hall of Famers both well past

their Prime. Ali beat 7 Hall of Famers four of them in their Prime.

Foreman does have a better chin indeed.

But does that mean Ali can knock Lewis out?
Lewis' chin has only failed him against huge punches (and even at that, only in 2 cases in his entire career). Accumulative punishement was no problem.

Your logic here is that Ali could knock Lewis out because he knocked Foreman out (who had a better chin) or because he knocked out someone (Foreman) who wasn't KO'd by someone else (Briggs) who in turn hurt Lewis?
In both cases the reasoning is invalid.

Frazier's chin couldn't take Foreman's bombs, and Ali knocked Foreman out, so Ali should have no trouble with Frazier or Fraziers chin....while in fact he lost the fight with Frazier when both were closest to their primes and never knocked him down in 44 hard rounds.

If your reasoning is the former: Archie Moore hurt Marciano, while Moore himself was knocked out by Charles. By your reasoning, Charles should in that case have no problem hurting Marciano, but in reality, Charles never hurt Marciano in 23 rounds, with the exception of an elbow (foul).

There is a big difference between taking accumulative punishement from a heavyweight with good power and bombs from a big puncher. Joe Frazier could seemingly take an endless amount of Ali's (accumulative) punches without going down, but when he was hit by a huge puncher in Foreman, it was a different story. Stewart went 12 rounds with Holyfield but was knocked out in one round by Mike Tyson. There are plenty of examples.



By the way, a prime, focused Lewis is no cakewalk for anyone. While Lewis never faced anyone as fast, durable and resortful as Ali, Ali never faced someone who had Lewis' combination of precision punching, intelligence, size and power.
I think Lewis would take 1 out of 3 matches.

[ChrisPontius]

This is a bit off topic, but I think it is worth repeating. When exactly was Lewis's prime?


I would say from the moment he knocked Ruddock out untill he knocked Tyson out, in other words, from 1992 to 2002.
While he had quite some fundamental flaws pre-Steward and was somewhat slowed down against Tyson, i still count them as prime years.

I think he was at his peak during the second McCall fight.

[NickHudson]

Hmmm fair enough, I can sort of see where you are coming from.

But how do you respond to the critics who point to the horrible KO losses during 'prime'?

Also, it is a mighty shame that McCall II was so incompetent, as if this was to be Lewis's night of nights we were robbed of a fine match. McCalls durability as a foil for Lewis's skills and athleticism...

I watched the fight at the time but have never seen it since as I was so disgusted by it! Did Lewis really look great that night????

I only ask as its not how I remember it, I remember him doing virtually nothing and following McCall round the ring like a puppy dog. It was a pathetic spectacle, equalled only by Lewis Akinwande.


I would say from the moment he knocked Ruddock out untill he knocked Tyson out, in other words, from 1992 to 2002.
While he had quite some fundamental flaws pre-Steward and was somewhat slowed down against Tyson, i still count them as prime years.

I think he was at his peak during the second McCall fight.

[ChrisPontius]

Hmmm fair enough, I can sort of see where you are coming from.

But how do you respond to the critics who point to the horrible KO losses during 'prime'?


They were during his prime, no two ways about it.
Lewis looked great against Ruddock, which was before losing to McCall.
And he looked great after losing to Rahman (in the rematch and against Tyson), so the only logical conclusion is that he was in his prime for both these fights.

Now i will add that he seemed to underestimated Rahman and had some unfixed flaws in his style against McCall, but it was still his prime.


Also, it is a mighty shame that McCall II was so incompetent, as if this was to be Lewis's night of nights we were robbed of a fine match. McCalls durability as a foil for Lewis's skills and athleticism...

I watched the fight at the time but have never seen it since as I was so disgusted by it! Did Lewis really look great that night????

I only ask as its not how I remember it, I remember him doing virtually nothing and following McCall round the ring like a puppy dog. It was a pathetic spectacle, equalled only by Lewis Akinwande.

Don't trust your memory if it's longer than 5 years ago. The memory has a way of changing the information. Sometimes exxagarating one event (in this case Lewis doing nothing and chasing McCall around), sometimes changing the event in such a way that you're more happy with it. Research has proven this. That's why i find it completly laughable when Fleischer says "well i've seen Jim Jeffries 20 years ago and he was faster than Dempsey/Tunney/whoever"... you can barely remember these things accurately enough over a few years to make such a judgement... over 5 years it is simply unreliable, especially when it comes to subjective matter like Boxing. I sometimes re-watch a fight that i haven't seen in one or two years and am suprised that the fight was quite different from what i remembered.


Anyway, about Lewis-McCall II. The first 3 rounds were genuine and Lewis showed great ability in it. He controlled McCall by keeping him on the outside with his jab and hit him with hard uppercuts on the inside. McCall tried to repeat his right hand but Lewis simply didn't allow him to. Also watch 2:00 or 1:00 minute left in round 3 (i forget which of the two), McCall lunges in and Lewis hits him with a beautiful, hard counter right hand, and momentarily staggers McCall.. which is the only time i've ever seen McCall stagger. Here is where McCall realised that he couldn't land on Lewis and had to pay for trying everytime by hard counter shots. He feared another long, painful night like against Bruno and broke down.

Round 4 & 5 are appartantly the only rounds which you remembered because those did go as you described. McCall barely did anything and Lewis nailed him with some hard shots, while being carefull because McCall could be playing possum.

I think the fight is on Youtube, be sure to look it up. Lewis looks as sharp as ever.

Now Lewis vs Akinwande, that WAS disgusting indeed.

[NickHudson]

thanks for your response chris, i will be sure to revisit the fight on youtube.

They were during his prime, no two ways about it.
Lewis looked great against Ruddock, which was before losing to McCall.
And he looked great after losing to Rahman (in the rematch and against Tyson), so the only logical conclusion is that he was in his prime for both these fights.

Now i will add that he seemed to underestimated Rahman and had some unfixed flaws in his style against McCall, but it was still his prime.



Don't trust your memory if it's longer than 5 years ago. The memory has a way of changing the information. Sometimes exxagarating one event (in this case Lewis doing nothing and chasing McCall around), sometimes changing the event in such a way that you're more happy with it. Research has proven this. That's why i find it completly laughable when Fleischer says "well i've seen Jim Jeffries 20 years ago and he was faster than Dempsey/Tunney/whoever"... you can barely remember these things accurately enough over a few years to make such a judgement... over 5 years it is simply unreliable, especially when it comes to subjective matter like Boxing. I sometimes re-watch a fight that i haven't seen in one or two years and am suprised that the fight was quite different from what i remembered.


Anyway, about Lewis-McCall II. The first 3 rounds were genuine and Lewis showed great ability in it. He controlled McCall by keeping him on the outside with his jab and hit him with hard uppercuts on the inside. McCall tried to repeat his right hand but Lewis simply didn't allow him to. Also watch 2:00 or 1:00 minute left in round 3 (i forget which of the two), McCall lunges in and Lewis hits him with a beautiful, hard counter right hand, and momentarily staggers McCall.. which is the only time i've ever seen McCall stagger. Here is where McCall realised that he couldn't land on Lewis and had to pay for trying everytime by hard counter shots. He feared another long, painful night like against Bruno and broke down.

Round 4 & 5 are appartantly the only rounds which you remembered because those did go as you described. McCall barely did anything and Lewis nailed him with some hard shots, while being carefull because McCall could be playing possum.

I think the fight is on Youtube, be sure to look it up. Lewis looks as sharp as ever.

Now Lewis vs Akinwande, that WAS disgusting indeed.

[Robbi]

They were during his prime, no two ways about it.
Lewis looked great against Ruddock, which was before losing to McCall.
And he looked great after losing to Rahman (in the rematch and against Tyson), so the only logical conclusion is that he was in his prime for both these fights.

Now i will add that he seemed to underestimated Rahman and had some unfixed flaws in his style against McCall, but it was still his prime.



Don't trust your memory if it's longer than 5 years ago. The memory has a way of changing the information. Sometimes exxagarating one event (in this case Lewis doing nothing and chasing McCall around), sometimes changing the event in such a way that you're more happy with it. Research has proven this. That's why i find it completly laughable when Fleischer says "well i've seen Jim Jeffries 20 years ago and he was faster than Dempsey/Tunney/whoever"... you can barely remember these things accurately enough over a few years to make such a judgement... over 5 years it is simply unreliable, especially when it comes to subjective matter like Boxing. I sometimes re-watch a fight that i haven't seen in one or two years and am suprised that the fight was quite different from what i remembered.


Anyway, about Lewis-McCall II. The first 3 rounds were genuine and Lewis showed great ability in it. He controlled McCall by keeping him on the outside with his jab and hit him with hard uppercuts on the inside. McCall tried to repeat his right hand but Lewis simply didn't allow him to. Also watch 2:00 or 1:00 minute left in round 3 (i forget which of the two), McCall lunges in and Lewis hits him with a beautiful, hard counter right hand, and momentarily staggers McCall.. which is the only time i've ever seen McCall stagger. Here is where McCall realised that he couldn't land on Lewis and had to pay for trying everytime by hard counter shots. He feared another long, painful night like against Bruno and broke down.

Round 4 & 5 are appartantly the only rounds which you remembered because those did go as you described. McCall barely did anything and Lewis nailed him with some hard shots, while being carefull because McCall could be playing possum.

I think the fight is on Youtube, be sure to look it up. Lewis looks as sharp as ever.

Now Lewis vs Akinwande, that WAS disgusting indeed.

Akinwande was a complete disgrace to the human race. He was a terrified beanpole while the fight lasted. He had no interest in even trying to make a noise against Lewis. After viewing the fight it seems he was only looking to stop Lewis getting off with punches, and was not in the slightest bit concerned with his own work. Mills Lane gave him chances to fight effectively, but he choose to get DQ'd. Lewis was in there to box and fight, Akinwande on the otherhand was a wrestler during July 97.

[Robbi]

I would say from the moment he knocked Ruddock out untill he knocked Tyson out, in other words, from 1992 to 2002.
While he had quite some fundamental flaws pre-Steward and was somewhat slowed down against Tyson, i still count them as prime years.

I think he was at his peak during the second McCall fight.

I feel Lewis' prime was his fights with, Grant, Botha, Tua, Rahman, Rahman II, Tyson. 2000-2002. He became a complete seasoned fighter during that period. His boxing ability over 12 rounds was sublime against Tua, and his destructions against Botha and Grant showed his power and timing was as good as it ever was it any point in his career.

During the mid-late 90's he struggled with fighters such as Mercer, and he hardly looked on top of his game against Mavrovic.

Its amazing when you look at young athletic fighter during the early 90's, then once he got the rematch against McCall he was physically a different man.

[Smokin'Joe]

Desperately try to knock him out? He had at least 3 full minutes to do that, and Liston couldn't land a single good clean punch on blind Clay? This is a lot more absurd (for anyone who knows what a wonderful fighter Liston was) than trying to persuade that that imitation of offense was real thing.

Yes desperatly try to knock him out, there's nothing more I can say really. You've done ntohing to prove me wrong on this.


Why don't you tell about "that other crap" to Thomas Hearns and Gerald McClellan, neither of whom were originally known as big punchers? Even Earnie Shavers once said, that as he got older, it became more difficult to knock people out and so he actually was developing his punching skills, timing and accuracy, to keep his fearsome power.

How is this even relevant? We're talking about Foreman here. I said HE didn't need all that other stuff. I didn't say all that other stuff was pointless. Geesh man, READ.


Ruddock. Golota. Briggs. Grant. Botha. Rahman II.

You wrattle these names of like they were actually good fighters. Foreman would have walked through everyone of those guys, and did it quicker than Lewis did. But there would have been no need for Foreman to face Rahman a second time


Ali took the punches to the body exceptionally well, there's no doubt about it. But to the head, he took very few clean punches, where other guys showed much better accuracy than Foreman. Yet even those not very clean punches were enough to get Ali senseless two times with only the ropes saving him from being flattened.

You overexagerate everything. Ali was never freaking senseless at all during the fight. He might have taken a good shot, but he recovered, you can see Ali talking to Foreman after taking such said shots to get into his head. He was fine.


I must have forgot how Jimmy Young applied constant pressure on Ali.

Ugh, ok? Didn't he lose to?


These claims are so silly, I don't even know what to tell you. You gotta get more Lewis fights and watch them carefully, before ever claiming words like "never was". I'll spare you of public embarasment this time, but try to avoid making such mistakes in the future.

Ohh, you'll spare me public embarasment, kinda what you're going through now? Half your comments towards Ali are so unrescoured and dumb, you are making yourself look stupid. I admit, I'm not a Lewis fight expert, but I don't try to sound like one. You're making statements about Ali and bending truths, just for the sake of strengthing any argument you have.


If so, then stop claiming Ali's power would be a factor here. In which fight did a slapper wear Lennox Lewis down and eventually stopped him?

If you could at all, comprehend what people are saying, instead of picking and choosing things to comment on, you'd see that's not at all what I was trying to get across. I was saying that Ali's combination of speed, agility, etc makes up for any lack of power he had. How can you argue this?


Most of these KO's were against bums, plus several stoppages on cuts, where his slaps couldn't really hurt his opponents even once.

oh, and Liston's first 20 ko's were real championship calibre to. Most of his ko's over guys like Tony Tucker, who were as you said, bums, with just padded records.


Lamar Clark has one of the most impressive KO records in history at some point. But anyone who thinks he could knock out ranked fighters just as easily, eventually found out it was a false assumption.

Ok, what's your point? you're continuing to argue on a pretty well dead issue. And your simply trying to bend logic. So now what? Tko stoppages dont count or somthing? Your again trying to make it sound as if we should discredit Ali because of his according to you weak punch. You can't win with you.


Who was more fatigued at that point, Mercer (who has a better chin than Foreman) or Lewis?

Mercer had a tough chin, but he was decked by Holyfield who wasn't hitting him near as cleanly or often as he was an old ass Foreman. It was nowhere near as tough as Foremans.


Glass-chinned Foster? That's a good one. Do you mind describing the other examples so we know they fit the conditions that were in my question? You may even name 1-3 punch KO wins against bums if that helps you.

I allready did. You've just once again showed you can't comprehend anything you read.


Being able to wear an opponent down with tons of punches and then being able to finish them off, doesn't represent a hard hitter. Real hard hitters don't need many punches to knock the opponent down or out. Frazier's punching power was just average. Henry Armstrong and Harry Greb stopped many opponents also, with they constant pressure, but nobody calls them big punchers for some reason. Joe Frazier was no different than them.

Just average? lol. There is absolutly no winning with you. To attempt to argue that Frazier's power was just average, shows you don't have near as much knowledge of boxing as you claim. Jimmy Ellis had an AVERAGE punch. Micheal Moorer had and AVERAGE punch. You know nothing man. Frazier cracked ribs, busted kidneys, broke jaws, with single blows. You're complelety wrong.


Ruddock, Golota, Grant are obvious examples. I could list several fights before he won the world title (against European level of opposition). That wouldn't help you, as Frazier doesn't have anything even against below World-level opposition.

Well, there's no accounting for taste. and you're right, Frazier doesn't have anything aginst below World level opp, cause after Mathis, he wasn't hardly fighting any.


Foreman-Frazier 1? What are you talking about?

I was just using it as an example of ko right off the bat, where the other fighter wasn't worn down. what's there not to get?


Mercer. Bruno. Briggs. Klitschko. Holyfield.

Bruno's a joke he still rattled Lewis' cage, Briggs is a big unbalanaced monster and he did the same, and Klitschko was on the verge of stopping Lewis. Mercer is an overated puncher, just because of what he did to Tommy Morrison people think he could really hit, but he always fell short against the next tier of contenders. Holyfield had phsical disadvantages, sort of like Mercer, and he was a solid volume puncher but not a powerful one. He had trouble even landing on lewis.


He didn't make up for it to stop a glass-chinned Cooper or glass-chinned old injured Floyd Patterson. He couldn't even land any clean punches on 15-11-1 big and slow Duke Sabedong. He only narrowly outpointed Alonzo Johnson. He was lucky that Alex Miteff wasn't a big puncher, when he caught Clay with a right cross in the 2nd round. Sonny Banks punished him for overconfidence, dropping him with a long left hook. Billy Daniels had been ahead on points when the fight was stopped on cuts and Clay refused to give him a rematch, same as to Doug Jones a little later. Lavorante knocked the wind out of Clay with a couple of body shots, Clay grimaccing in pain and getting on a bicycle to avoid the troubles. He asked for a new Caddilac to get himself in the right mood for Doug Jones, and was doing silly predictions, but instead he blew it and got a boxing lesson (that right hand in the 1st round ought to teach him a lesson, but as it turned out in the next fight, it didn't) and barely escaped defeat (the referee in that bout was obviously a blind man though). They chose Henry Cooper next, who Clay called 'a tramp, a bum and a cripple'. Well that crippled bum put him on his own bum, so that he wasn't fully aware where he was and when the next round was going to be. Against, he was lucky that the fight was stopped on cuts, but not before Cooper got the first blood from Cassius' nostrils in the 1st round, so much for Clay's speed and agility.

Sure lets go back to Cooper and Jones you wont seem to forget about it. But you seem to totally forget about McCall and Rahman knocking the hell out of Lewis don't you?

Also you're compelelty underating Cooper who at the very LEAST was a champion and had a reputation as a puncher, that more than any of us can say about either McCall or Rahman befor ethe ko'd Lewis.

McCall and Rahman's rep as punchers are pretty well a direct result of knocking out Lewis. Further more Ali beat those other 2 fighters! Lewis lost. What's your comment on this?

[Senya13]

I see this is meaningless. Instead of answering to facts or giving out facts in the reasoning, he keeps saying 'so what' or says 'no, that ain't so' without giving a single fact to back it up. I'm not wasting my time any longer.

[ChrisPontius]

I feel Lewis' prime was his fights with, Grant, Botha, Tua, Rahman, Rahman II, Tyson. 2000-2002. He became a complete seasoned fighter during that period. His boxing ability over 12 rounds was sublime against Tua, and his destructions against Botha and Grant showed his power and timing was as good as it ever was it any point in his career.

During the mid-late 90's he struggled with fighters such as Mercer, and he hardly looked on top of his game against Mavrovic.

Its amazing when you look at young athletic fighter during the early 90's, then once he got the rematch against McCall he was physically a different man.


Like i said before, i don't think he was at his peak during the Mercer fight, but i count it as his prime anyway.

About the Mavrovic fight, what was wrong there? Lewis lost one round in the entire fight; you can even argue he didn't lose a single round. The one time Mavrovic landed some good stuff, Lewis came back later in the round with hard combinations, which still made the round pretty much even, even though it was Mavrovic' best one.

Mavrovic has an iron chin and because of that he was able to go the distance, but he ate a tremendous amount of hard uppercuts. Basically it was a shutout win over a decent contender; just because Mavrovic went the distance doesn't mean that Lewis did bad or anything.

[Stonehands89]

Cooper was known as an easy cutter. Ali couldn't knock out a fly that night with his slaps, to stop Cooper he needed either baseball bat or a gun.

Unfortunately, the facts say otherwise: Cooper couldn't continue because his face was a bleeding mess. Ali's fists made it that way. Ali stopped Cooper.

To stop Cooper, Ali turned those "slaps" around and sliced up Cooper's skin. Ali doesn't need to apologize because Cooper's prominent bone structure made him prone to cut.

Now got write it 400 times on the black board after school. "Ali stopped Cooper. Ali stopped Cooper. Ali stopped Cooper."

[Longhhorn71]

Interesting comments above my boxing friends.

I don't know if anyone mentioned 6'6" WBA Ernie Terrell. And of course Ali
boxed rings around him.....and Ali was aggressive and came inside also in that fight.

To beat Ali you have to be "on a mission" like Frazier...and to some degree like Norton (when he had used a psychologist...and was not afraid or psyched by Ali).

Lewis of the Ruddock fight might have the psych to give Ali some issues.
The problem is Ali keeps his demeanor thru an entire fight and is hard to discourage.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Lewis did not beat any great fighters in their prime for that reason I can't put

him any higher then nine or ten among the great heavyweights. Losing to

a few C level fighters doesn't help either.

The best fighters Lewis beat in their prime were mercer,Morrison,Ruddock,

and Tua. I will be generous and say they are B level fighters

[Doppleganger]

Losing to a few C level fighters doesn't help either.
Well he lost to two fighters. Using the word 'few' makes it appear worse than what it is.

[Senya13]

Unfortunately, the facts say otherwise: Cooper couldn't continue because his face was a bleeding mess. Ali's fists made it that way. Ali stopped Cooper.

To stop Cooper, Ali turned those "slaps" around and sliced up Cooper's skin. Ali doesn't need to apologize because Cooper's prominent bone structure made him prone to cut.
If you can't see the connection between two parts of the same statement...
Ali couldn't knock out a fly that night with his slaps, to stop Cooper he needed either baseball bat or a gun.
In this case "stop" = "knock out".

[Senya13]

Well he lost to two fighters. Using the word 'few' makes it appear worse than what it is.
He also forgot to mention that Clay/Ali struggled in fights with a LOT of D, E and F fighters.

[groove]

but he never struggled against A fighters like Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Patterson or against B fighters like Quarry, Terrell, Ellis etc. Cooper was not a D fighter so who the fuck were E and F fighters? Cooper is a better heavy than Don Cockell anyway and not FAT LOL. Cooper may have beaten Rocky. After the Rocky fight Cockell said, "I would like to fight Marciano again any place any time. He's not the hardest hitting man I ever fought. He just hits more often."

[Senya13]

I laid out facts, listing over a dozen fights and describing the details to pay attention to. Ali defenders had nothing to say about them, other than concentrate on two Lewis losses time and time again.

[Smokin'Joe]

I laid out facts, listing over a dozen fights and describing the details to pay attention to. Ali defenders had nothing to say about them, other than concentrate on two Lewis losses time and time again.

I expected somthin like that. Guys like you dont' know when they've lost.

[NickHudson]

Hey Senya,

I have re-read your lengthy earlier post, and there is no doubt you have watched and analysed a lot of boxing. It is full of detail and contains many grains of truth.

However, I believe the reason your arguments don't wash with much of the ESB forum, and that you have created so much debate, is that you dont apply the same stringent criticisms to Lewis as you do to Ali.

In short your recent posts have been terribly one-sided in manner and tone. Your posts give the impression (and the impression may be wrong) that you don't like Ali as a man, and you really desperately wish that Lewis (or at least someone) would have beaten him in a fight, whether or not logic suggests this is the case.

Support for this conclusion is based on an earlier thread where you argued the patently absurd notion that prime RJJ would have beaten prime Ali.

If you applied the same destructive tone to RJJ (e.g. he was rubbish and it was just a matter of time before he got exposed by KO) or Lewis (e.g. he was rubbish and could be KOd by a single shot from a glrofied sparring partner while in his prime) as you did to Ali I believe your opinions would balance out a little.

I laid out facts, listing over a dozen fights and describing the details to pay attention to. Ali defenders had nothing to say about them, other than concentrate on two Lewis losses time and time again.

[Senya13]

Of course I don't like Ali. I hate him so much that I have him #2 in my all-time heavyweight ratings. Not at #1, that's how far my hate for him goes. Not having Ali at #1 and criticizing him for his flaws is a major sin with some people (I don't mean you).
The reason why I argueing like that is because there are hundreds of people out there, who don't know when to stop in their love for Ali. They describe him as some kind of ideal boxer, who in his prime never had any troubles with any boxer. Who outsmarted everyone he faced. Who never lost a round in his prime, never struggled with any styles. And even if he did, they will keep repeating that it only matters who got his hand lifted as the winner.
As you said, it is "terribly one-sided in manner and tone" and gives "the impression (and the impression may be wrong)" that Ali is some kind of God, who, while in his best shape, could lose to nobody.

you dont apply the same stringent criticisms to Lewis as you do to Ali
See, it's like I said, instead of admitting Ali's flaws and admitting that he experienced troubles in the ring not only when he was old, but when he was young and was fighting inferior opposition, you prefer to concentrate on other fighters instead, and would rather put them down worse than I did Ali, than admit the above things. Although, such thing happens not just with Ali, but with pretty much any other fighter that gets discussed here.

[C. M. Clay II]

Lewis' size means nothing. Ali ate up huge heavyweights. Liston, Foreman, Williams, Lewis, Wepner, Terrel, etc says it all. It's the small, volume punchers who gave him trouble (Frazier, Spinks, Chuvalo, etc.)Lewis loses by wide UD. He couldn't handle Ray Mercer's jab, so how is he gonna handle Ali's? Lewis may even lose my a late stoppage due to accumilation. Ali would hit him at will and dart in and out of range. Plus Lewis never fought a 15 rounder before.

Muhammad Ali TKO 14 Lennox Lewis:good

[groove]

Norton was Ali's achilles heel. You know why? Because he was always looking to counter attack Ali. Ali was a counter attacker himself so he liked his opponents to come forward and show him the way. Norton didn't play that game. They cancelled each other out a lot of the time in their fights and therefore the reason they were not so great action wise like the Frazier battles and were very close fights.

[Stonehands89]

If you can't see the connection between two parts of the same statement...

In this case "stop" = "knock out".

Senya, you strain gnats and swallow camels. Whether or not Ali knocked Cooper unconscious or sliced his face to ribbons is incidental. Cooper was stopped. Twice by Ali. The records show Cooper posting 2 of the 37 "KO" victims of Ali.

[Joe E]

This is'nt a good match up for Ali.The way to beat Ali was to be patient and wait for him.You also would need a good left jab and would have to use it frequently.Lennox could do this,his carefull style of counter punching combined with his patience and very good right would give Ali fits.In a 12 rounder Lennox stands a very good chance of beating Ali.In a 15 rounder I say Ali wins a close decision.:cool:

[Mendoza]

Who, and please, please, please, why?

A their very best, I'll go with Ali via close decsion. Anything outside of their best nights, Lewis wins by decison or knockout.

[Sonny's jab]

Ali wins it.

Because he's so damn fast and Lewis would do nothing much than eat his jab all night, probably get cut up and possibly KO'd or TKO'd late.
Ali makes Lewis look ordinary from start to finish.

And before anyone starts, I also think a peak Ali would pot shot the shit out of my favourite Holyfield.

[Black Eyes To You]

Ali would KO Lewis in the late rounds. Why? Because Lewis is a slower, less polished version of Larry Holmes without his speed and jab. He also has a less than stellar chin to cover from the likes of ALI? Get real.

[ripcity]

Lewis uses his 4 inch reach advantage and wins by decision.

[Seamus]

Ali would KO Lewis in the late rounds. Why? Because Lewis is a slower, less polished version of Larry Holmes without his speed and jab. He also has a less than stellar chin to cover from the likes of ALI? Get real.


Lewis is also a much stronger, heavier-handed fighter than Holmes with a pulverizing rather than stinging jab.

LL UD Ali

[mcvey]

Who, and please, please, please, why?
Lewis is well coordinated for a big man but he would be facing the most agile of the Heavies in Ali,Ali wins this with superior movement and greater speed Lewis,s footwork would look clumsy in contrast to alis ,s fleetness,I can even see Ali dropping Lewis as he overreaches with his punches ,ala Foreman.

[Joe E]

Ali would do the same to Lewis that he did to Williams,Terrel,and Ellis.A prime Lewis would never catch a prime Ali.Thanks.

[C. M. Clay II]

This is'nt a good match up for Ali.The way to beat Ali was to be patient and wait for him.You also would need a good left jab and would have to use it frequently.Lennox could do this,his carefull style of counter punching combined with his patience and very good right would give Ali fits.In a 12 rounder Lennox stands a very good chance of beating Ali.In a 15 rounder I say Ali wins a close decision.:cool:

No, to beat Ali you have to be relentless and take the fight to him. If you wait on him, he's gonna pick you apart. Lewis is too slow. Ali would pick him apart on the way to a comfortable UD.:good

[JohnThomas1]

No, to beat Ali you have to be relentless and take the fight to him. If you wait on him, he's gonna pick you apart. Lewis is too slow. Ali would pick him apart on the way to a comfortable UD.:good

When did Ali ever face a fighter who waited on him that had the talent and size of Lennox Lewis? Whilst i am inclined to go for Ali in this one stating "If you wait on him, he's gonna pick you apart." is a terrible oversimplification IMO. Comparing Lewis to some of the mugs who waited for Ali is like comparing a crack in the bedroom wall to the grand canyon. What you are overlooking is that Ali preferred his opponent to come after him, and i really can't see Lewis with all that reach running round chasing Ali all fight.