I don't know if you Lewis fans realize it, but LL was KO'd twice by 2nd tier guys

[Slothrop]

....in the early rounds.

[Illmatic]

and he avenged them...big whoopedy do

[brooklyn1550]

Really? I don't believe you

[McGrain]

Yeah, we know. He also took on more top 10 fighters during his reign than anyone since Louis, beat every man he ever faced and fights in an era where a fight is more likely to be stopped due to concussive injuries than most of the guys he's being compared to.

All in all he's not that comlicated a subject, though many wish to make him appear so. How you rate Lewis should be based on all factors, not just one, same as every other fighter.

[Slothrop]

Really? I don't believe you

I swear to God.

[chimba]

I really cant say he avenged the one against McCall.. Oliver was crazy..in that fight...I mean Lewis couldnt hurt him

[Slothrop]

No shit?! I almost forgot about that...

Never forget.

[RAMPAGE0017]

....in the early rounds.


Well, it's better than getting KOed by 3rd tier guys. :good :hey

[Slothrop]

Well, it's better than getting KOed by 3rd tier guys. :good :hey

I'll give him that.

[compukiller]

WALD was TKO'ed by 3 3rd tier guys.

[cuchulain]

....in the early rounds.

Did that really happen?

I had no idea.

Fancy that.

I'm demoting him to #4 on my ATG heavywt list, right away.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Did that really happen?

I had no idea.

Fancy that.

I'm demoting him to #4 on my ATG heavywt list, right away.

Not me, I'm demoting him to #2.

[shelterr]

The guy fought everyone he could, didn't avoid big puchers (Briggs, Tua, Vitali, ect), and got careless a couple of times and got caught. Big fuckin deal. Name another heavyweight who fought his level of competition over such a long period of time did half as well. You can't. I can't think of a single heavyweight who does better overall head to head against the other all time greats except maybe Ali.

[Zakman]

Lewis fans LOVE to gloss over this one - but the fact is that Lewis is the ONLY top level HW champ to have gotten taken out early, not once, but TWICE, by second rate guys like this when he held the title. The only one.

Those who point this out are NOT saying he wasn't a great fighter - just that this unique flaw in his record clearly makes him #2 for the era to the best HW champ since Holmes, Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield. :nod

[Fighting Weight]

Lewis fans LOVE to gloss over this one - but the fact is that Lewis is the ONLY top level HW champ to have gotten taken out early, not once, but TWICE, by second rate guys like this when he held the title. The only one.

Those who point this out are NOT saying he wasn't a great fighter - just that this unique flaw in his record clearly makes him #2 for the era to the best HW champ since Holmes, Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield. :nod

Here we go again.....:roll:

[barneyrub]

Rahman is a 2 time champ, Mccall until a few weeks ago was rated number 2 by the WBC, thats gotto make most other guys out there 3rd or 4th tier i suppose then!
At least Rahman beat Purrity and Sanders who both ko`d Wlad!

[cuchulain]

Lewis fans LOVE to gloss over this one - but the fact is that Lewis is the ONLY top level HW champ to have gotten taken out early, not once, but TWICE, by second rate guys like this when he held the title. The only one.

Those who point this out are NOT saying he wasn't a great fighter - just that this unique flaw in his record clearly makes him #2 for the era to the best HW champ since Holmes, Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield. :nod

He went head to head twice with Evander, utterly schooling first time and spanking him decisively the second time.

As for Holmes, do you think Lewis would have been careless or unprepared for a fight of that magnitude?

I have Lewis behind Ali and Louis, and maybe (just maybe) big George. Other than that, I would favour him over any other heavywt.


Ali lost to Spinks (past his best , admittedly) and to Smokin' Joe and Norton when he was near his best.

Louis lost to Schmeling by KO.

It doesn't change their rankings in my book.

Your posts in the lounge are pretty good, but your logic in this forum is sometimes tainted by bias.

[Zakman]

He went head to head twice with Evander, utterly schooling first time and spanking him decisively the second time.



Ali lost to Spinks (past his best , admittedly) and to Smokin' Joe and Norton when he was near his best.

Louis lost to Schmeling by KO.

It doesn't change their rankings in my book.

Ah but unlike Joe Louis, Lewis didn't get taken out when he was a kid - he was 29 when McCall did it, and 35 when Rahman did it! And yeah, Ali lost to Frazier and Norton in the heart of his career, yes - but in neither fight was he knocked out like Lewis was. And Frazier and even Norton are hardly on the level of McCall and Rahman!!

Oh, and his beating a past his prime Evander Holyfield hardly proves his superiority for the era - particularly considering that Holyfield beat a prime Bowe and a still-dangerous Tyson, while Lewis faced a declining Holyfield and a washed-up Tyson. And even then, in their second fight, quite a few ringside journalists gave Evander the nod.:yep

[audio101]

Great thread!

[Vanboxingfan]

Great thread!

Ya if ya like reading the same old arguments year in and year out. :yep

[psychopath]

....in the early rounds.

Nopes . . . haven't forgotten that, that's part of Lewis' boxing history . . . and despite that . . . he was able to rebound from it and still made a very remarkable career.

Lewis' boxing career didn't end there my friend. :D

[Fighting Weight]

Ah but unlike Joe Louis, Lewis didn't get taken out when he was a kid - he was 29 when McCall did it, and 35 when Rahman did it! And yeah, Ali lost to Frazier and Norton in the heart of his career, yes - but in neither fight was he knocked out like Lewis was. And Frazier and even Norton are hardly on the level of McCall and Rahman!!

Oh, and his beating a past his prime Evander Holyfield hardly proves his superiority for the era - particularly considering that Holyfield beat a prime Bowe and a still-dangerous Tyson, while Lewis faced a declining Holyfield and a washed-up Tyson. And even then, in their second fight, quite a few ringside journalists gave Evander the nod.:yep

You also fail to mention that Holyfield also lost twice to a prime Bowe, who threw his belt in the bin rather than face Lewis. That just about says it all doesn't it :deal

Love the fact that Tyson was 'still dangerous' against Holy yet was washed up against Lewis - maybe so, but Tyson had ducked Lewis for years, as had Holyfield, which was the ONLY reason Lewis got them later in their careers. Holyfield had to fight Lewis because he literally ran out of choices/excuses, and Tyson needed the payday so badly he decided he'd finally take his beating like a man.

Oh and a few half-drunk ringside journalists giving Evander the nod proves shit - he lost on everyones card who watched the fight without Holyfield coloured specs on.

[cuchulain]

Ah but unlike Joe Louis, Lewis didn't get taken out when he was a kid - he was 29 when McCall did it, and 35 when Rahman did it! And yeah, Ali lost to Frazier and Norton in the heart of his career, yes - but in neither fight was he knocked out like Lewis was. And Frazier and even Norton are hardly on the level of McCall and Rahman!!

I agree that neither Rahman nor McCall were Frazier nor Norton, but both Lewis losses were careless mistakes. This was evidenced by the outcomes of the rematches. Ali's losses to the two aforementioned were NOT mistakes. Both rematches were close.

Oh, and his beating a past his prime Evander Holyfield hardly proves his superiority for the era - particularly considering that Holyfield beat a prime Bowe and a still-dangerous Tyson, while Lewis faced a declining Holyfield and a washed-up Tyson. And even then, in their second fight, quite a few ringside journalists gave Evander the nod.

That would be the same prime Bowe that ducked Lewis and lost to him by KO in the Olympics (not overly significant but worth mentioning).

And Holyfield aged differently than many fighters. His skills were not significantly degraded by age when he faced Lennox. The result was, without a doubt, the biggest robbery I've witnessed in more thann forty years of following the sport.

Admittedly, the second fight was closer, but unless you were Stevie Wonder, it was clear who won the fight. A fight that would never have taken place but for the earlier travesty of a decision.

:yep.

[drvooh]

WALD was TKO'ed by 3 3rd tier guys.
And Ali was dropped and nearly out by 180 LB Henry Cooper....
but it doesn't take away Alis' skills.he was stil geat

[Fighting Weight]

And Ali was dropped and nearly out by 180 LB Henry Cooper....
but it doesn't take away Alis' skills.he was stil geat

Cooper could hurt anyone with that left hook.....he was an unusual fighter in that he was orthodox but his best punch was his left hook - he could surprise anyone with that shot. Ali took him too lightly and almost paid the price.

[Beebs]

Lewis fans LOVE to gloss over this one - but the fact is that Lewis is the ONLY top level HW champ to have gotten taken out early, not once, but TWICE, by second rate guys like this when he held the title. The only one.

Those who point this out are NOT saying he wasn't a great fighter - just that this unique flaw in his record clearly makes him #2 for the era to the best HW champ since Holmes, Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield. :nod

How does Lewis schooling Holyfied head to head fit into your world view?

[drvooh]

Cooper could hurt anyone with that left hook.....he was an unusual fighter in that he was orthodox but his best punch was his left hook - he could surprise anyone with that shot. Ali took him too lightly and almost paid the price. Also..as you said, it;s the ones you do not see that can get you..surprise..But LL could have been decked by guys, hat he was better than, and it happened to Wlad as well..:hi:

[Slothrop]

Once is a fluke, twice is a pattern.

[LONGROB]

Since when are Rahman and McCall shitty fighters? These guys were in their primes in these fights. McCall is a former crack head and is in his 40's but he is still fighting well and handling some good fighters. Rahman looked great in that fight with Lewis. He was at his peak. He would have given anyone trouble that night. Rahman also went on to win a HW belt 5 years after the Lewis fights. These are good fighters with big punches. They have the ability to ko any fighter with one shot.

[Zakman]

How does Lewis schooling Holyfied head to head fit into your world view?

He beat him the first time, although not by as wide a margin as Lewis fans like to make out. Second fight could have gone either way. The fact that Lewis fought close fights with a Holyfield on the decline indicates that, prime for prime, Holyfield would likely have emerged the victor. :yep

[cuchulain]

He beat him the first time, although not by as wide a margin as Lewis fans like to make out. Second fight could have gone either way. The fact that Lewis fought close fights with a Holyfield on the decline indicates that, prime for prime, Holyfield would likely have emerged the victor. :yep


Sorry, I don't see the fights that way.

First fight was 10-2 or 9-3 if you're generous. (It could also have been 11-1).

Second fight was 8-4 or 9-3.

I put Lewis as the best of his era andhead to head, top four alltime.

[Slothrop]

He beat him the first time, although not by as wide a margin as Lewis fans like to make out. Second fight could have gone either way. The fact that Lewis fought close fights with a Holyfield on the decline indicates that, prime for prime, Holyfield would likely have emerged the victor. :yep

This is the only objective way to view the fights.

[Zakman]

This is the only objective way to view the fights.

Exactly. :yep :goodThe closeness of these fights, combined with the fact that Holyfield fought Bowe, and fought Tyson when he had something left, AND didn't get starched early by second raters when he was champ, cinches his status as the best of the era. The Lewis fans will NEVER see it that way though, however much it's pointed out to 'em!! :-(

[Punisher33]

He beat him the first time, although not by as wide a margin as Lewis fans like to make out. Second fight could have gone either way. The fact that Lewis fought close fights with a Holyfield on the decline indicates that, prime for prime, Holyfield would likely have emerged the victor. :yep I had Lewis winning the first fight 8-4 maybe 7-5, the second fight was real close, and alot of the rounds were hard to score, I had the second fight a draw to be truthful, niether man did enough to win that fight IMO.

[djrock247]

....in the early rounds.

Are your 3,476 other posts quite this poignant and articulate? Really, I'd love to hear some more of your insightful and enlightening pugilistic prose. Educate us...

[Slothrop]

Are your 3,476 other posts quite this poignant and articulate? Really, I'd love to hear some more of your insightful and enlightening pugilistic prose. Educate us...

TWICE, DOODER! TWICE! In this feat, Lewis accomplished something that Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Ali, Foreman, Tyson, Liston, Tunney, Holmes, and Jerse Joe Walcott never managed! Yet half the people on this board want to rate Lewis above these guys!

[Beebs]

He beat him the first time, although not by as wide a margin as Lewis fans like to make out. Second fight could have gone either way. The fact that Lewis fought close fights with a Holyfield on the decline indicates that, prime for prime, Holyfield would likely have emerged the victor. :yep

Rational argument that doesn't seem overly biased.

You are still wrong though.

[DamonD]

Wha...why the hell didn't someone tell me about this sooner?!?! Two losses, you say?

[inchpunch]

Holyfield better than Lewis? Give me a break. Holy fought five opponents multiple times and only has a positive record against one of them, Tyson. He clearly lost 2 out of 3 against Bowe, should have lost both times against Lewis and is 1 - 1 with Moorer, losing when Moorer was in shape, and 1 -1 -1 with Ruiz. Plus Lewis dominated many fights against quality opponents, Holy had to dig deep against every quality opponent who came in shape.

[McGrain]

Lewis fans LOVE to gloss over this one - but the fact is that Lewis is the ONLY top level HW champ to have gotten taken out early, not once, but TWICE, by second rate guys like this when he held the title. The only one.

He's also the ONLY guy since Rocky to beat every man he's ever faced.

Those who point this out are NOT saying he wasn't a great fighter - just that this unique flaw in his record clearly makes him #2 for the era to the best HW champ since Holmes, Evander "Real Deal" Holyfield. :nod

And those of us who do NOT place him in the lowest possible slot are only saying that he has more great wins than Hollyfield and less losses against great fighters by some distance.

What is your opinion on Burley , Zivic, Armstrong or Archie Moore, who also lost fights, sometimes to weaker opposition? Are they proping up your top 15 in their respective divisions?

You hold a very extreme position on Lewis, as do the people who have him at 1 or 2. It's very unlikely that either you or they are right.

[Bodysnatcher]

Bowe and mid-90s Tyson avoided a prime Lewis like the plague but fought a prime or prime Holyfield.

I'd say Holyfield and Lewis are hard to seperate but whatever your view, you have to sympathise with Lewis, who was denied two legacy defining fights because he was feared.

[Relentless]

Once is a fluke, twice is a pattern.

what about the 11th time?

[196osh]

Dun dun dun. I could never have guessed.

[audio101]

Once is a fluke, twice is a pattern.

Did you just start following boxing a few days ago or something?:nut

[Feiti]

Ali almost got KOed by Henry Cooper in the early rounds and was pretty much saved by the bell. Remember too that Ali got more time to recover than he sould have, because of a glove issue. Ali also got a few questionable decisions in fights against Norton and Jimmy Young.

George Foreman got beaten and floored by Jimmy Young and he got floored and nearly KOed by Ron Lyle.

Mike Tyson got beaten silly by Buster Douglas.

A lot of the greats got beaten by lesser fighters at one point or another.

[sthomas]

Not a big Louis fan but Louis>Holyfield heavyweight champ in the 90's. Holyfield>Louis alltime fighter because of pre-heavy legacy for P4P. Heavyweight champ>Champ of any other weight, I do not consider P4P arguments except in fantasy.

[Haye]

Shit never realised that...

Who cares anyway? He avenged them both times, and the Rahman KO was one of the best KO's ever. As far as I am concerned because he avenged both losses in style, it does little to damage his legacy. One of the best heavyweight's ever, we may never, ever have such a superb, dominant heavyweight champion again, so dont diss him.

[Haye]

And another thing... McCall and Rahman in their primes would wipe the floor with todays HW's. They were second rate fighters in a golden age of heavies, but still good, solid fighters.

[thesandman]

I like how Holy is excused for losing to Lewis, as he's faded or "past prime", even though holding 2 belts and being what, 36, 37?

However, a THIRTY-FIVE year old Lewis doesn't get the same allowance due to age losing to Rahman.

"Different fighters, different styles of fighting make them age differently" - there you go, there's Holy fans reply.

Well, blocking punches with your head will do that........