Could it be that Braddock simply outboxed Baer instead of the clowning excuses?

[ChrisPontius]

I'm sure that Bear clowned here and there, but some people make it out asif he was laughing and fooling around the ring for 14 and a half rounds.

Watching footage on Baer it becomes awefully apparant that Baer has very weak boxing skills. Why would it be such a stretch to suggest Braddock simply outboxed him?

Braddock had an iron chin which is probably what saved him in the Baer fight: If you're good and Bear can't knock you out, you're likely to win a decision. Baer lost decisions to other, lesser fighters before. Only a peak Louis ever KO'd Braddock and it took a lot of punishement for that to happen.

Buster Douglas also outboxed Tyson, Moorer outboxed Holyfield, Norton outboxed Ali. Worse things have happened. Perhaps Braddock is a little better than we think ? Or Baer a bit worse than we think? He resume is awefully thin. When Fogey did the analysis of champions' records against top contenders, Baer ended very low.

It is, of course, hard to judge because we don't have the entire fight on film. But i suspect Braddock deserves more respect than "He was champion because Baer clowned around!". I've also read of Baer breaking a hand, but hey, shit happens. I feel he gets a lot of excuses.

[McGrain]

I am absolutel sure that Braddock outboxed Baer. In fact i'll go a bit further - the guy between Corn and Joe is the most underated HW of all.

[Sonny's jab]

It's not really an "either...or" situation.

Baer clowned AND Braddock outboxed him.

The fight was a horrible bore.

[janitor]

Another variable is that Baer seems to have injured both his hands at some point in the fight. This might have upset his game plan, which was probably to bludgeon Braddock sensless and cut the reff out of the equation.

[janitor]

I'm sure that Bear clowned here and there, but some people make it out asif he was laughing and fooling around the ring for 14 and a half rounds.

Watching footage on Baer it becomes awefully apparant that Baer has very weak boxing skills. Why would it be such a stretch to suggest Braddock simply outboxed him?

Braddock had an iron chin which is probably what saved him in the Baer fight: If you're good and Bear can't knock you out, you're likely to win a decision. Baer lost decisions to other, lesser fighters before. Only a peak Louis ever KO'd Braddock and it took a lot of punishement for that to happen.

Buster Douglas also outboxed Tyson, Moorer outboxed Holyfield, Norton outboxed Ali. Worse things have happened. Perhaps Braddock is a little better than we think ? Or Baer a bit worse than we think? He resume is awefully thin. When Fogey did the analysis of champions' records against top contenders, Baer ended very low.

It is, of course, hard to judge because we don't have the entire fight on film. But i suspect Braddock deserves more respect than "He was champion because Baer clowned around!". I've also read of Baer breaking a hand, but hey, shit happens. I feel he gets a lot of excuses.

Well some Baer apologists will try to claim that he was outboxed and did not simplyclown away the most prestigeous title in sporting history.

But i suspect Braddock deserves more respect than "He was champion because Baer clowned around!". I've also read of Baer breaking a hand, but hey, shit happens. I feel he gets a lot of excuses.

Well to be fair Braddock was not some bum who was given an undeserved shot at the title that he managed to capitalize on. He earned his place in the ring by beating the better contenders around, so if Baer underestimated him then more fool him.

[mr. magoo]

I think it fair to assume that Max Baer did not take Jim Braddock as a serious contender. Of course this is a huge mistake for any champion to make no matter what the circumstances are. I never saw this fight in its entirety, but Braddock showed up to capitalize on the opportunity, wheras Baer seems to have slacked a bit. Nevertheless, Braddock should be given full credit for the efforts that he put forth, regardless of what Baer's attitude was going into the fight.

[Dempsey1238]

I have seen all 15 rounds in highlight form. Baer DID clown a lot in that fight though. Making poseings, weaving at the crowd, and making some faces during the match. Than Braddock would just jab him lol. Jimmy earn his victory. But I think the main reason Baer lost, is because he came in less than peak shape. He relly did try to take Jimmy's head off in the later rounds, but failed.

[Jack Dempsey]

I read today, and it was the first time I'd heard it, but apparently Max was acting very strange the night before the fight, Ancil Hoffman reported him having a strange faraway look in his eyes, it was very unlike Max to be anything but laughing and happy, Ancil said whatever it was that was bothering Max it was 'down deep'

Maybe he was stuggling with his conscience and how he may be sending Braddock back to the poverty line by winning??

How about Baer threw the fight to help Jimmy out?????????

Doubtful though

[red cobra]

It's not really an "either...or" situation.

Baer clowned AND Braddock outboxed him.

The fight was a horrible bore.
Right. Braddock had a good night and he did fight the right kind of fight and basically had the right idea, but don't tell me that if Baer had truly fought at his real potential that the fight would have turned out like it did. Braddock was helped out greatly by the fact that he was fighting a guy who had a flaw in his fighting mentality, whether it was due to killing two men in his career, or that he had no real sense of urgency, or whatever, I believe that if Baer's mindset was set on 'killer' that he would have been a much harder man to beat, and would have most certainly have ko'd, that's KO'D, with a capital "K" the rather pedestrian, but courageous Jim Braddock.

[ChrisPontius]

I, for one, am not as convinced as you are of the inevitability of Baer's win over Braddock had he been focused.

First of all, Baer never really seemed to box that serious. It's not like this was a one-fight fluke.

Second, Baer is a horrible boxer. And i really mean horrible. Watch the Louis fight; his defence consists mostly of blocking jabs with his forehead, Louis just couldn't miss him. Offense was his only defense. He carries his hands low, his balance is incorrect, etc etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Braddock would still beat him. He has to tools to outbox Baer and the chin to take the big ones that do get through.

[McGrain]

I, for one, am not as convinced as you are of the inevitability of Baer's win over Braddock had he been focused.

First of all, Baer never really seemed to box that serious. It's not like this was a one-fight fluke.

Second, Baer is a horrible boxer. And i really mean horrible. Watch the Louis fight; his defence consists mostly of blocking jabs with his forehead, Louis just couldn't miss him. Offense was his only defense. He carries his hands low, his balance is incorrect, etc etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Braddock would still beat him. He has to tools to outbox Baer and the chin to take the big ones that do get through.

:lol:

I pick THAT BRADDOCK to beat any version of Baer. Nearly ditched him in the 5th.

[janitor]

I, for one, am not as convinced as you are of the inevitability of Baer's win over Braddock had he been focused.

First of all, Baer never really seemed to box that serious. It's not like this was a one-fight fluke.


Baer did have some decision wins over good fighters including, Tommy Farr, Earnie Schaff and King Levinsky. They were all either sluggers or swarmers though.

Against a boxer over 15 rounds he would typicaly need a KO. He got away with this weakness because he generaly got one.

[Maxie's Gal]

I read today, and it was the first time I'd heard it, but apparently Max was acting very strange the night before the fight, Ancil Hoffman reported him having a strange faraway look in his eyes, it was very unlike Max to be anything but laughing and happy, Ancil said whatever it was that was bothering Max it was 'down deep'

Maybe he was stuggling with his conscience and how he may be sending Braddock back to the poverty line by winning??

How about Baer threw the fight to help Jimmy out?????????

Doubtful though


This is actually a valid possibility. Having daily researched Max for the last year, I know how scattered his thought processes were. Do you recall what newspaper and its date where you read this. Did you find it on newspaperarchives.com ??

I'm currently delving into the Battle of the Maxes and the Sharkey-Carnera bout and one thing we forget is that the challenger, regardless of whether he wins the title or not, gets peanuts compared to the cut the champ gets. In the Sharkey-Carnera bout, Primo got 10% and Sharkey got 42.5% of the gate receipts. Its only after they win the title that they make the big bucks from personal appearances. Max knew there'd never be a slow down in demands for his personal appearances regardless of whether he was champ or not, and until his dying day he was on the road more often than home. Braddock from all accounts was fairly shy and not given to drawing attention to himself. He needed to make hay while the sun shined y'know ?

Modern times has it that Baer was issuing scathing ballyhoo against Schmeling prior to their fight, but I actually discovered more quotes along the lines of "gee he's a game fighter" and after the fight, "with eyes that shone he watched Schmeling walk into the room and later remarked, 'I hope he's not sore at me for beating him.'"

Max was quoted as saying he was worried about killing Braddock in the ring and I didn't take it as bluster. Another reporter said to him, "Y'know you need to get serious, this guy is pretty good." to which Max replied, "Don't you think I know that?" Its a fact Max always read several daily newspapers and knew the sentimental factor pulling for Braddock.

Remember too, the newspapers stated *prior* to the fight that Baer had injured his hands in an exhibition bout 3 weeks before the fight. The boxing commission doctor examined his hands and claimed "they should be okay." Just after the bout he was pushing on his hands to show the press how the metacarpals bounced out of joint. Can you fake that ? Blow by blows of the bout indicate "Max didn't throw more than a handful of real blows" during the fight.

I dunno, you guys know I have a soft spot for Max, but I tell ya, once you dig deep, day by day, into the events leading up to, during and after these big bouts, you find that modern knowledge of what really went on is entirely different from what actually happened.

Regards,
Cat
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[Jack Dempsey]

This is actually a valid possibility. Having daily researched Max for the last year, I know how scattered his thought processes were. Do you recall what newspaper and its date where you read this. Did you find it on newspaperarchives.com ??

I'm currently delving into the Battle of the Maxes and the Sharkey-Carnera bout and one thing we forget is that the challenger, regardless of whether he wins the title or not, gets peanuts compared to the cut the champ gets. In the Sharkey-Carnera bout, Primo got 10% and Sharkey got 42.5% of the gate receipts. Its only after they win the title that they make the big bucks from personal appearances. Max knew there'd never be a slow down in demands for his personal appearances regardless of whether he was champ or not, and until his dying day he was on the road more often than home. Braddock from all accounts was fairly shy and not given to drawing attention to himself. He needed to make hay while the sun shined y'know ?

Modern times has it that Baer was issuing scathing ballyhoo against Schmeling prior to their fight, but I actually discovered more quotes along the lines of "gee he's a game fighter" and after the fight, "with eyes that shone he watched Schmeling walk into the room and later remarked, 'I hope he's not sore at me for beating him.'"

Max was quoted as saying he was worried about killing Braddock in the ring and I didn't take it as bluster. Another reporter said to him, "Y'know you need to get serious, this guy is pretty good." to which Max replied, "Don't you think I know that?" Its a fact Max always read several daily newspapers and knew the sentimental factor pulling for Braddock.

Remember too, the newspapers stated *prior* to the fight that Baer had injured his hands in an exhibition bout 3 weeks before the fight. The boxing commission doctor examined his hands and claimed "they should be okay." Just after the bout he was pushing on his hands to show the press how the metacarpals bounced out of joint. Can you fake that ? Blow by blows of the bout indicate "Max didn't throw more than a handful of real blows" during the fight.

I dunno, you guys know I have a soft spot for Max, but I tell ya, once you dig deep, day by day, into the events leading up to, during and after these big bouts, you find that modern knowledge of what really went on is entirely different from what actually happened.

Regards,
Cat
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Hi Cat

This was in Ray Arcels biography that I've just been reading (the following info came from an article in Ring many years later), it also says that he wasn't himself at the weigh in either, he clowned somewhat (kissed the boxing comissioners pretty assistant allegedly) but those who really knew him claimed he was not his usual madcap self, the same thing is also said about him when him and Braddock go face to face for the square off, its claimed Max chooses to look at the floor instead of Braddock.

Ray Arcel states that he wept like a baby when he heard Max had died, and said 'I loved the big guy, he was the kid that never grew up, and every time I was with him I felt 20 years younger'

[Maxie's Gal]

I'm sure that Bear clowned here and there, but some people make it out asif he was laughing and fooling around the ring for 14 and a half rounds.

Watching footage on Baer it becomes awefully apparant that Baer has very weak boxing skills. Why would it be such a stretch to suggest Braddock simply outboxed him?

Braddock had an iron chin which is probably what saved him in the Baer fight: If you're good and Bear can't knock you out, you're likely to win a decision. Baer lost decisions to other, lesser fighters before. Only a peak Louis ever KO'd Braddock and it took a lot of punishement for that to happen.

Buster Douglas also outboxed Tyson, Moorer outboxed Holyfield, Norton outboxed Ali. Worse things have happened. Perhaps Braddock is a little better than we think ? Or Baer a bit worse than we think? He resume is awefully thin. When Fogey did the analysis of champions' records against top contenders, Baer ended very low.

It is, of course, hard to judge because we don't have the entire fight on film. But i suspect Braddock deserves more respect than "He was champion because Baer clowned around!". I've also read of Baer breaking a hand, but hey, shit happens. I feel he gets a lot of excuses.
And I see it as alot of people seem to have an ax to grind against him. We tend to select a few of his fights where he performed poorly and state that this was how he always was.

We tend to forget that in rematches against fighters who were at the top of their game when Max fought them, such as Schaaf, Risko, Levinsky, Griffith, Max won. Schmeling and Carnera were in their prime when he fought them. Tommy Farr staggered Louis on several occasions and was British Champ, yet Max was the first to knock him down. Lou Nova stated it practically killed him to get Baer to go down in both their bouts. Louis said he had to hit Max harder than anyone to get him to go down. I think the count in their 4 rounds together was over 250 punches.

All of the press and Max himself admitted he had no technique and was wide open defensively. The qualities he possessed were the ability to take endless punishment while he waited for an opening for that right. Surprisingly enough, early in his career it was his left that was deadly too !

Did Max quit vs. Louis ? Yes. But as someone said on another forum "there are several instances of steel chinned fighters having to take matters into their own hands and end proceedings before being beaten into an absolute pulp."

Regards,
Cat
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[Maxie's Gal]

Hi Cat

This was in Ray Arcels biography that I've just been reading (the following info came from an article in Ring many years later), it also says that he wasn't himself at the weigh in either, he clowned somewhat (kissed the boxing comissioners pretty assistant allegedly) but those who really knew him claimed he was not his usual madcap self, the same thing is also said about him when him and Braddock go face to face for the square off, its claimed Max chooses to look at the floor instead of Braddock.

Ray Arcel states that he wept like a baby when he heard Max had died, and said 'I loved the big guy, he was the kid that never grew up, and every time I was with him I felt 20 years younger'

Holy sheet, I didn't know there was a biography on Ray !! I've been talking with Bill Gallo, who knew Arcel, and the bio never came up. I gotta have that book, thanks !

From what I've read about the weigh-in at Baer-Braddock, Max came bounding up like a puppy to shake the hands of Jimmy and Joe Gould and both of them cut him down dead. There is a photo of that weigh-in where Max looks rather crestfallen. I've always attributed that look on his face to his surprise at how nasty Jimm and Joe were to him just before the photo was snapped.

[Jack Dempsey]

Holy sheet, I didn't know there was a biography on Ray !! I've been talking with Bill Gallo, who knew Arcel, and the bio never came up. I gotta have that book, thanks !

From what I've read about the weigh-in at Baer-Braddock, Max came bounding up like a puppy to shake the hands of Jimmy and Joe Gould and both of them cut him down dead. There is a photo of that weigh-in where Max looks rather crestfallen. I've always attributed that look on his face to his surprise at how nasty Jimm and Joe were to him just before the photo was snapped.

Its not been out long, its called 'The champ in the corner' it's not great to be honest, this is what I had to say about it in another thread

''Well I'm 2/3's of the way through the Arcel book and its a bit disappointing to be honest, every chapter past the first 2 seem to be about a different fighter with a link to Arcel, very little about the man himself, basically a potted bio of each fighter per chapter with a comment made by Arcel in his lifetime tacked on the end.

So far we've had Baer Braddock Louis Carnera Ross Galento, nothing in here I haven't head a dozen time before''

[Maxie's Gal]

Its not been out long, its called 'The champ in the corner' it's not great to be honest, this is what I had to say about it in another thread

''Well I'm 2/3's of the way through the Arcel book and its a bit disappointing to be honest, every chapter past the first 2 seem to be about a different fighter with a link to Arcel, very little about the man himself, basically a potted bio of each fighter per chapter with a comment made by Arcel in his lifetime tacked on the end.

So far we've had Baer Braddock Louis Carnera Ross Galento, nothing in here I haven't head a dozen time before''
Sheesh, no kidding its new, I can only pre-order it at Amazon, which is the cheapest at $35.00.

That's dissapointing, but I appreciate your honesty. $35.00 is a bit steep to me unless its a well done book. Is that all he says about Max Baer ? If so, I'll pass.

I'm reading "Master of the Ring" about Jem Mace. Its by Graham Gordon. I actually won it in a contest on another forum. I can't recommend it highly enough and I'm only on page 92. The details are so precise, yet its written in a way that even a non-boxing fan would enjoy it and learn alot, as Jem Mace had his fingers in alot of pies, not just boxing. Excellent work !

Thanks !!!
Cat

[Jack Dempsey]

Sheesh, no kidding its new, I can only pre-order it at Amazon, which is the cheapest at $35.00.

That's dissapointing, but I appreciate your honesty. $35.00 is a bit steep to me unless its a well done book. Is that all he says about Max Baer ? If so, I'll pass.

I'm reading "Master of the Ring" about Jem Mace. Its by Graham Gordon. I actually won it in a contest on another forum. I can't recommend it highly enough and I'm only on page 92. The details are so precise, yet its written in a way that even a non-boxing fan would enjoy it and learn alot, as Jem Mace had his fingers in alot of pies, not just boxing. Excellent work !

Thanks !!!
Cat

Theres one chapter on Baer, try and get it at the library perhaps?