Light heavyweights' records against other top light heavyweights

[Manassa]

This may or may not be quite telling. I've quickly compiled a list of several top light heavyweights and their records against other top thirty all time light heavyweights.

- I'm being quite conservative in my estimations of who is top thirty and who isn't, because not everyone will agree

- Verdicts are not changed; a robbery may be unfair, but for now I will not take the liberty to tamper with results (so Charles-Johnson is still a loss for Charles)

- Newspaper victories are counted

- Delaney stands for Jack, not Jimmy

- Didn't count Lloyd Marshall or Young Stribling

- Fights at heavyweight are still valid, as long as both fighters were great light heavyweights

--

Ezzard Charles: 12-2-0 (Moore, Johnson, Bivins, Maxim)

Archie Moore: 11-5-1 (Charles, Johnson, Bivins, Maxim, Pastrano)

Michael Spinks: 2-0-0 (Qawi, Muhammad)

Gene Tunney: 5-1-1 (Greb, Gibbons, Loughran)

Bob Foster: 1-1-0 (Tiger, Mina)

Sam Langford: 2-0-0 (Norfolk, O' Brien)

Tommy Loughran: 3-6-2 (Tunney, Greb, Delaney, Carpentier, Slattery)

--

:think

[ChrisPontius]

You forgot: Roy Jones 0-0.

[Manassa]

You forgot: Roy Jones 0-0.

Well, I'd say Hill is a top thirty light heavyweight.

[dmt]

good research there

[ChrisPontius]

It does show Charles' absolute dominance at lightheavyweight. The amazing thing is that 3 of those 12 wins are against Archie Moore, who would've been 11-2-1 without Charles.

[Asterion]

Is Mauro Mina truly a Top30 Light Heavyweight of all time?

[Manassa]

It does show Charles' absolute dominance at lightheavyweight. The amazing thing is that 3 of those 12 wins are against Archie Moore, who would've been 11-2-1 without Charles.

And one of the losses Charles arguably won (Johnson). Probably past his best there as well. The other loss, to Bivins, came before his prime; although he did get battered.

[Manassa]

Is Mauro Mina truly a Top30 Light Heavyweight of all time?

I believe so.

[Ezzard]

Mina is one of boxing's big secrets.

Great exercise Manassa

[Manassa]

Mina is one of boxing's big secrets.

Great exercise Manassa

Thank you. Here is an interesting one:

Jim Braddock: 2-3-0-1 (Slattery, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Lewis)

Braddock was a more proven light heavyweight than Bob Foster, at least at the top level.

[Manassa]

How about this for a tested light heavyweight?:

Maxie Rosenbloom: 7-9-1 (Slattery, Fox, Lewis, Greb, Delaney)

Anyone think I should have been including Young Stribling and/or Battling Levinsky?

[dpw417]

This may or may not be quite telling. I've quickly compiled a list of several top light heavyweights and their records against other top thirty all time light heavyweights.

- I'm being quite conservative in my estimations of who is top thirty and who isn't, because not everyone will agree

- Verdicts are not changed; a robbery may be unfair, but for now I will not take the liberty to tamper with results (so Charles-Johnson is still a loss for Charles)

- Newspaper victories are counted

- Delaney stands for Jack, not Jimmy

- Didn't count Lloyd Marshall or Young Stribling

- Fights at heavyweight are still valid, as long as both fighters were great light heavyweights

--

Ezzard Charles: 12-2-0 (Moore, Johnson, Bivins, Maxim)

Archie Moore: 11-5-1 (Charles, Johnson, Bivins, Maxim, Pastrano)

Michael Spinks: 2-0-0 (Qawi, Muhammad)

Gene Tunney: 5-1-1 (Greb, Gibbons, Loughran)

Bob Foster: 1-1-0 (Tiger, Mina)

Sam Langford: 2-0-0 (Norfolk, O' Brien)

Tommy Loughran: 3-6-2 (Tunney, Greb, Delaney, Carpentier, Slattery)

--

:think
Very interesting!
Charles was an amazing fighter:good

[sweet_scientist]

And one of the losses Charles arguably won (Johnson). Probably past his best there as well. The other loss, to Bivins, came before his prime; although he did get battered.

I can't for the life of me see how anyone would argue that Charles beat Johnson. He was soundly outboxed. Even if you give him the benefit of all the close rounds (the 4th and the 9th) and count the knockdown in the last round (I didn't), and give him a 10-8 round, I still think he earns a draw at best.

[Manassa]

I can't for the life of me see how anyone would argue that Charles beat Johnson. He was soundly outboxed. Even if you give him the benefit of all the close rounds (the 4th and the 9th) and count the knockdown in the last round (I didn't), and give him a 10-8 round, I still think he earns a draw at best.

That's what I've always said. Trying telling it to SuzieQ49... Actually don't bother, he'll just change his opinion to suit whatever argument he's faced with.

Whether Charles lost the fight or not matters little, however - he had seen his best days. Still think he'd always beat Johnson though, at his best - I mean, he outfoxed Charley Burley, Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott.

[sweet_scientist]

That's what I've always said. Trying telling it to SuzieQ49... Actually don't bother, he'll just change his opinion to suit whatever argument he's faced with.

Whether Charles lost the fight or not matters little, however - he had seen his best days. Still think he'd always beat Johnson though, at his best - I mean, he outfoxed Charley Burley, Archie Moore and Jersey Joe Walcott.

At his best he probably knocks Johnson out (could just as well win on points of course), but the old, slow, plodding guy he was in this fight definitely didn't do enough for a win. Would love to see Suzie's scorecard and justification for this one.

[mattdonnellon]

good work.dillon, levinsky, stribling would be in my list and tiger out.interesting stuff.

[Senya13]

Newspaper decisions shouldn't count much, as there was controversy about many of them. Such as several Loughran's losses could be taken as wins for him.

[janitor]

This may or may not be quite telling. I've quickly compiled a list of several top light heavyweights and their records against other top thirty all time light heavyweights.

- I'm being quite conservative in my estimations of who is top thirty and who isn't, because not everyone will agree

- Verdicts are not changed; a robbery may be unfair, but for now I will not take the liberty to tamper with results (so Charles-Johnson is still a loss for Charles)

- Newspaper victories are counted

- Delaney stands for Jack, not Jimmy

- Didn't count Lloyd Marshall or Young Stribling

- Fights at heavyweight are still valid, as long as both fighters were great light heavyweights

--

Ezzard Charles: 12-2-0 (Moore, Johnson, Bivins, Maxim)

Archie Moore: 11-5-1 (Charles, Johnson, Bivins, Maxim, Pastrano)

Michael Spinks: 2-0-0 (Qawi, Muhammad)

Gene Tunney: 5-1-1 (Greb, Gibbons, Loughran)

Bob Foster: 1-1-0 (Tiger, Mina)

Sam Langford: 2-0-0 (Norfolk, O' Brien)

Tommy Loughran: 3-6-2 (Tunney, Greb, Delaney, Carpentier, Slattery)

--

:think

Throw in Harry Greb and Jack Dillon.

You might also want to consider Jeff Clark in Sam Langfords case.

[Manassa]

Throw in Harry Greb and Jack Dillon.

You might also want to consider Jeff Clark in Sam Langfords case.

I knew you would mention Clark. I fail to see how he was a top light heavyweight. Please enlighten me.

[McGrain]

- Didn't count Lloyd Marshall or Young Stribling

Nice. But what are your reasons for leaving these boys out?

[Manassa]

Nice. But what are your reasons for leaving these boys out?

I don't exactly know why I left Stribling out, maybe I had the impression he was only twelve years old. I left Marshall out because he was better as a middleweight or small light heavyweight. The super middleweight division would have been perfect for him, same with Eddie Booker.

[janitor]

I knew you would mention Clark. I fail to see how he was a top light heavyweight. Please enlighten me.

Clark is a bit of a grey area. A miscelaneous weight if you like. He fought from middleweight to heavyweight but was typicaly in the light heavyweight range.

[Manassa]

Clark is a bit of a grey area. A miscelaneous weight if you like. He fought from middleweight to heavyweight but was typicaly in the light heavyweight range.

For a light heavyweight, he certainly fought a lot of lightweights and welterweights. Did he start out as one?

[janitor]

For a light heavyweight, he certainly fought a lot of lightweights and welterweights. Did he start out as one?

He was esentialy a natural middleweight but had to move up because none of the top middlews would face him.

[Manassa]

He was esentialy a natural middleweight but had to move up because none of the top middlews would face him.

Probably because he was losing too often.