Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

[Mendoza]

Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92

[McGrain]

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

:yikes

This is why people tend to treat Ali as two seperate entities (fight of the century v Liston I) - I presume Ali scores so low here because you are treating him for "high guard/fundamentals"?


Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

But why have you scored him a 9 in durability? In the modern division Ali is almost without peer as far as beatings absorbed is concerned, the two Frazer beatings were very serious and the Foreman beating is hugely, hugely underated. Ali is a 10 in this department, and you have to go back to pre WW1 before you can find someone with a better claim to one.

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

You really are losing me now. Holmes, 10 for heart, Ali 9.5? That is just plain wrong, Ali's pride got him to about round 8 in Manilla after that it's all heart, and then whatever comes after heart. Ali proves it over and over again, why is Holmes a 10?

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Unless you are talking about Ring Generalship in a different sense to the one I understand you are grossly underestimating him here again.


Wow. I had no idea I was such an Ali nuthugger. Or is it possible you have underestimated him here?

[janitor]

Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92

You should probably throw in Joe Walcott for good measure.

[Mendoza]

You should probably throw in Joe Walcott for good measure.

Master boxers rarely lose decsions.

[janitor]

Master boxers rarely lose decsions.

It depents who to.

[Mendoza]

McGrain

This is why people tend to treat Ali as two separate entities (fight of the century v Liston I) - I presume Ali scores so low here because you are treating him for "high guard/fundamentals"?
Defense is a lot of things. I think Ali had too many defense lapses, had mediocre defense vs in-fighters, a low guard, and some poor fundamentals. Ali got " nailed " too many times and hit with too many jabs to rate extremely high on defense.


But why have you scored him a 9 in durability? In the modern division Ali is almost without peer as far as beatings absorbed is concerned, the two Frazer beatings were very serious and the Foreman beating is hugely, hugely underrated. Ali is a 10 in this department, and you have to go back to pre WW1 before you can find someone with a better claim to one.

I think Ali was a great actor and was hurt more than his opponents realized. And Ali was hurt quite a few times in his career. A 9 is a great score. It is rare. To put it into context, guys like Mercer would be a 10 in durability.


You really are losing me now. Holmes, 10 for heart, Ali 9.5? That is just plain wrong, Ali's pride got him to about round 8 in Manilla after that it's all heart, and then whatever comes after heart. Ali proves it over and over again, why is Holmes a 10?

Heart is a lot of things. Ali coasted too often. When Ali needed a big final round vs Frazier, Norton, or Young did he really go all out in the fights he lost or might have lost? I think not. Remember, the young Ali wanted to quit vs Liston, but Dundee would not let him. Besides 9.5 is a great score. Now that I think about it, a 9 might have been better. Holmes in my opinion had to show more grit later in fights, fought better hurt, and had more dramatic moments when he needed them.


Wow. I had no idea I was such an Ali nuthugger. Or is it possible you have underestimated him here?

Ali came out #1. I am not underestimating him here. I think it’s a case of judging the full picture. Where we disagree is on a .5 to 1 factor. This is not a big disagreement. Its a 5-10% disagreement on 1 to 10 scale. Make no mistake bout it. Ali was great, but he had his share of incompletes and flaws too.

[Mendoza]

It depents who to.

Corbett was 59-0-4 before losing to Fitz. Some were real fights, others were exhibitions.

Tunney officially only lost once in 80+ fights.

The prime Ali only lost twice, and they were vs hall of fame fighters on their better nights.

Holmes was 48-0 at one point.

As for Walcott, he lost more decision than all of these men combined; and some of them were to non-hall of fame type of opponents. Hence Walcott was not a master boxer even if he had the traits of being one.

My $.02 on the topic.

[ChrisPontius]

I don't think you can rate Tunney and Corbett a 10 and 9,5 on stamina and give Holmes and Ali only 9 and 8.

Ali and Holmes had to deal with much bigger opponents, which causes your energy to drain much faster. Ask anyone who's been in the ring.

Ali averaging 60 punches a round against an unstoppable Frazier in their first fight should guarantee at least a 9,5.

Corbett proved it against a middleweight, a few lightheavies, cruisers and lost to the only real heavyweight. Tunney never fought a good 200lbs+ fighter that made him require 15 round stamina like any of Holmes' or Ali's opponents did. Put Tunney or Corbett in the ring with the 1971 Frazier, he'll eat them up.

[Mendoza]

ChrisPontius I don't think you can rate Tunney and Corbett a 10 and 9,5 on stamina and give Holmes and Ali only 9 and 8.
Do you think Ali or Holmes woudl be able to go full speed, in 20 rounds or more in the heat like Corbett did? No way. Tunney's ability to keep moving on flim in the later rounds, is more impressive than Ali's or Holmes. I have seen this.


Ali and Holmes had to deal with much bigger opponents, which causes your energy to drain much faster. Ask anyone who's been in the ring.

Counter point, they only had to deal with them when they got tired, and could move at 100%. Roy Jones did not get tired agaisnt John Ruiz, because he did not clinch him.


Ali averaging 60 punches a round against an unstoppable Frazier in their first fight should guarantee at least a 9,5.
Counterpoint, Ali clinched too much, which is away of resting, and rested on the ropes too often.


Corbett proved it against a middleweight, a few lightheavies, cruisers and lost to the only real heavyweight. Tunney never fought a good 200lbs+ fighter that made him require 15 round stamina like any of Holmes' or Ali's opponents did. Put Tunney or Corbett in the ring with the 1971 Frazier, he'll eat them up.

I'd favor Frazier, but an upset is possible for Tunney. I agree that Ali and Holmes fought better ehavies, which is why I game them higher scores on quality of competition.

[Maxmomer]

What about Johnson?

[ChrisPontius]

Do you think Ali or Holmes woudl be able to go full speed, in 20 rounds or more in the heat like Corbett did? No way. Tunney's ability to keep moving on flim in the later rounds, is more impressive than Ali's or Holmes. I have seen this.


A bigger heavy makes you move more, makes you be more afraid of counters etc (which causes you to make more upper body movement). Anyone who has been in the ring will tell you do this. Corbett and Tunney simply did not have to deal with this.

Tunney never went 20 rounds either. We don't have full fights of him going 15 like we have of Ali and Holmes. Maybe he took his rests as well.

About Corbett, we went past 20 rounds twice according to Boxrec. One of them was against an old brawler who hadn't fought in 5 years.

The other fight was against Choinsky in 1889. Choinsky was a middleweight (see my earlier point about heavyweights) and i assume this was a bareknuckle fight where a round ends when one fighter is one the ground? Uncomparable to the grueling 15 Ali went with Frazier.



Counter point, they only had to deal with them when they got tired, and could move at 100%. Roy Jones did not get tired agaisnt John Ruiz, because he did not clinch him.


True, that was a smart choice of referee on Jones' side. Ruiz should've used his physical advantages more and rough him up, pressure him, etc. He stopped doing that after a few rounds and any time they got close, the referee said Break!



Counterpoint, Ali clinched too much, which is away of resting, and rested on the ropes too often.



And you're telling me that Corbett, coming from a half-wrestle-half-boxing (called 'bareknuckle boxing') style did not wrestle and use that to rest? Or Tunney?

[Mendoza]

ChrisPontius A bigger heavy makes you move more, makes you be more afraid of counters etc (which causes you to make more upper body movement). Anyone who has been in the ring will tell you do this. Corbett and Tunney simply did not have to deal with this.

Weight drains a fighter’s stamina. Ali and Holmes would have better stamina at 200 than 212-215. How did Ali and Frazier look with a few extra pounds on them? See my point? Tunney and Corbett did not have the extra bulk to carry; hence their stamina was a bit better. As I said before, a master boxer uses skills, and smarts. The bigger guys get tired when chasing fleet footed opponents who don't stop, unless they have a big time height and reach advantage to dictate the action.


Tunney never went 20 rounds either. We don't have full fights of him going 15 like we have of Ali and Holmes. Maybe he took his rests as well.

Tunney never seemed tired on film...ever. I have footage of Tunney in the later rounds. He was fresh as a daisy. Corbett went 20+ rounds more than once with reports saying he was moving quickly well past round 15.


About Corbett, we went past 20 rounds twice according to Boxrec. One of them was against an old brawler who hadn't fought in 5 years.

Box rec is wrong. Corbett went 20+ rounds with Sullivan, 60+ rounds with Jackson, 27 rounds with Choynski, and 23 rounds with Jeffries.


True, that was a smart choice of referee on Jones' side. Ruiz should've used his physical advantages more and rough him up, pressure him, etc. He stopped doing that after a few rounds and any time they got close, the referee said Break!

I agree, but Ruiz being 220+ pounds did not slow Jones down one bit. And Ruiz punked out when Jones landed on him.


And you're telling me that Corbett, coming from a half-wrestle-half-boxing (called 'bareknuckle boxing') style did not wrestle and use that to rest? Or Tunney?

When one wrestles in the clinches, it burns stamina far faster than boxing from a distance. Corbett wrestled when he had the advantage, but did not wrestle much vs stronger guys like Sullivan or Jeffries. Yes, I am sure Tunney was most active. More active in terms of moving around than Ali or Holmes was in a 15 round fight. You can think the old timers were not as good, but they clearly had better stamina, fought longer matches, had the fights in the out door heat of daylight, and did not have any gator aid or AC.

[Mendoza]

What about Johnson?

Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.

[McGrain]

Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.

:twisted:

But fair enough. Johnson falls into the same "type" as Walcott who has also got a mention in this thread - smart, tricky clever types, very good defencively as well as a very excellent boxer.

I have no problem with your excluding Johnson (or Walcott) from your analyisis on "master boxers" but nor do I accept that Holmes is a better fighter than Johnson because of that distinction.

Oh, and Holmes would have got "pointed, draw(n), or narrowly defeat(ed) vs less types" if he had fought to Johnson's schedule.

[McGrain]

Defense is a lot of things. I think Ali had too many defense lapses, had mediocre defense vs in-fighters, a low guard, and some poor fundamentals. Ali got " nailed " too many times and hit with too many jabs to rate extremely high on defense.

I disagree with you hotly about his defence being mediocre v infighters. Ali is great v infighters. Take Walcott's remark about Marcinao - that he is easy to hit, but hard to hit clean - and multiply it for Ali v infighters. In fact I think Ali was never KD'd whilst fighting on the inside.

Secondly, whilst he did have defencive lapses, as you say, he got away with those lapses many, many times on account of his superb reactions. More often than many others who have "better fundamentals" but lesser reactions. I rate him as a defencive master unbettered in the history of the division for these reasons, and horribly underestimated as a defencive infighter.



I think Ali was a great actor and was hurt more than his opponents realized. And Ali was hurt quite a few times in his career. A 9 is a great score. It is rare. To put it into context, guys like Mercer would be a 10 in durability.

Never KO'd, ofcourse he was often hurt - he was in with some of the best HW's of all time, some of the most powerful too. He also often took opponents lightly and had to relly upon durability to help him through there. His second career was based primarily upon durability and defencive in fighting, the two areas I feel you have underestimated him the most.

I understand that a 9 is rare and so is a 10 - I am completely convinced that Ali is one and you should change your mark here, for what that is worth.



Heart is a lot of things. Ali coasted too often. When Ali needed a big final round vs Frazier, Norton, or Young did he really go all out in the fights he lost or might have lost? I think not. Remember, the young Ali wanted to quit vs Liston, but Dundee would not let him. Besides 9.5 is a great score. Now that I think about it, a 9 might have been better. Holmes in my opinion had to show more grit later in fights, fought better hurt, and had more dramatic moments when he needed them.

Indeed, all these points are valid. Surely all are washed from the eyes in light of the performances v Frazier or Foreman or Holmes, even? Ali has suffered some of the greatest violence in boxing's modern history unflinchingly - in fact he dominated in spite of it. What has Holmes done to be rated above Ali in this most crucial of departments? What hellish beating did he suffer? What massive, seemingly concussive KO did he rise from to dominate his enemy? Mabye the best left hook in HW division.



Ali was great, but he had his share of incompletes and flaws too.

I have never disputed this - I am not a big Ali fan, in fact I dislike the man.

[janitor]

Master boxers rarely lose decsions.

I dont think that it is unreasonable to think that a master boxer could loose a decision to a swarmer or another slickster.

I think that is what Johnson and Walcotts points losses generally are.

[Maxmomer]

Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.

Fair enough, I don't think Johnson was a better boxer than any of the four you've picked. On another subject: 60 plus rounds? Damn, if that's not a testament to Corbett's stamina, I don't know what is. Wikipedia says it was declared a No Contest because Jackson and Corbett were both too tired to continue.

[Mendoza]

Fair enough, I don't think Johnson was a better boxer than any of the four you've picked. On another subject: 60 plus rounds? Damn, if that's not a testament to Corbett's stamina, I don't know what is. Wikipedia says it was declared a No Contest because Jackson and Corbett were both too tired to continue.

I read the round by round report of Corbett vs Jackson, and its a dozy. Corbett won more rounds from what I can tell, but Jackson won some rounds by a larger margin. After round 30, things slowed down.

[godking]

Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92Take Ali out of the thread .ALI was NOT a master boxer.

He had great physical abilities but a relativelly poor defense and no body game.

[Bill1234]

Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92

I agree 100%. I made a similar list on the main forum I go to, just it was based on more things and I did the top ATG heavyweights, not just the master boxers.

[SuzieQ49]

how could you not consider jersey joe a master boxer? if you have ever stepped foot in the ring and had some boxing knowledge, one would realize watching him on film that he was a master boxer ring technision with great science. Eddie futch said "walcott was one of the finest master boxing ring technicions in the history of boxing.

If you look at his record you will also see he has also outboxed and outpointed some very fine fighters(louis I, murray, charles, Bivins, Ray, marciano 13)

overall all you need to do his watch the film to realize how great a master boxer walcott was. He excelled ring science to a higher level with his artistry of slick moves/ upper body feints.

I think walcott looks much better than corbett for instance.

[SuzieQ49]

I also think Floyd Patterson and Ezzard Charles should be on this list over gene tunney. too me on film patterson was one of the finest most skilled boxers i have ever seen, and charles was an exceptional textbook fluid master boxer.

[C. M. Clay II]

Jack Johnson should be on this list.

[Mendoza]

I also think Floyd Patterson and Ezzard Charles should be on this list over gene tunney. too me on film patterson was one of the finest most skilled boxers i have ever seen, and charles was an exceptional textbook fluid master boxer.

I suppose I could list them, but they would be in 5th and 6th place. Patterson and Charles were down a combined 48 times. Tunney was only down once. His footwork was better, he was much smarter, and he was more of the classic boxer style I was angling for. Patterson and Charles liked to brawl a bit.

[SuzieQ49]

no walcott? tunney better footwork than walcott? is that a joke?

[SuzieQ49]

tunney was only down once, but he didnt face anywhere near the level of competition charles, patterson, walcott faced. tunney also never fought any men over 200lb like the above 3 did. tunney the majority of his career fought men much smaller than him. Tunney didnt fight any black fighters, he ducked jack sharkey and george godfrey. Tunney also failed to fight many of the top punchers of his era

[Mendoza]

no walcott? tunney better footwork than walcott? is that a joke?


I did not say Tunney's footwork was any better or worse than Walcott's. I was comparing Tunney's footwork to Charles and Patterson.

I fancy Walcott’s stuff, but he just doesn’t fit my definition of a " master boxer " because he lost 18 times. By contrast Tunney officially only lost once.

[SuzieQ49]

tunney didnt fight any where near the level of competition at heavyweight that walcott fought. tunney didnt fight big men, tunney didnt fight black fighters. tunney did not fight on 24 hr notice against top contenders with no training and with hardly any food in his stomach in the last 2 days like walcott did. tunney didnt fight out of his prime like walcott did. tunney didnt fight big punchers(outside of old jack).

[SuzieQ49]

On film, it appears Floyd Patterson and ezzard charles both looked like the better tutored and skilled boxers than gene tunney. for instance, tunney didnt even know how to hold a high guard, something that you learn your first day in the gym. tunney threw arm punches, something they teach you in the gym not to do.


Tunney had predictable unpolished footwork. charles at his peak danced and glided around like a polished dancer, with great rythm and unpredictablity in his footwork. i give charles the edge here.

[ChrisPontius]

for instance, tunney didnt even know how to hold a high guard, something that you learn your first day in the gym.

Not in those days.

Tunney was revolutionary skilled in that he did things that most boxers only learnt from the 30's. If you look at a guy like Dempsey, who was still modern for that time, you'd think in the 1920's they had their testicles in their knees, the way he keeps his hands there. Product of the transition of bareknuckle boxing to gloved boxing. From the early 30's, gloved boxing was modern.

[Mendoza]

tunney was only down once, but he didnt face anywhere near the level of competition charles, patterson, walcott faced. tunney also never fought any men over 200lb like the above 3 did. tunney the majority of his career fought men much smaller than him. Tunney didnt fight any black fighters, he ducked jack sharkey and george godfrey. Tunney also failed to fight many of the top punchers of his era

Are you aware that Geroge Godfrey would not fight Tunney? The papers make reference to this.

Are you aware Tunney record vs hall of fame fighter is something like 10-1? I think that is fine competition.

Are you aware Charles and Patterson also fought much smaller men, who for the most part were the same size as Tunney?


Tunney fought Demspey twice, he was the best puncher of the era.

[JohnThomas1]

Not in those days.

Tunney was revolutionary skilled in that he did things that most boxers only learnt from the 30's. If you look at a guy like Dempsey, who was still modern for that time, you'd think in the 1920's they had their testicles in their knees, the way he keeps his hands there. Product of the transition of bareknuckle boxing to gloved boxing. From the early 30's, gloved boxing was modern.

Tho i've lost the article Tunney did indeed move boxing forward technically.

[red cobra]

Are you aware that Geroge Godfrey would not fight Tunney? The papers make reference to this.

Are you aware Tunney record vs hall of fame fighter is something like 10-1? I think that is fine competition.

Are you aware Charles and Patterson also fought much smaller men, who for the most part were the same size as Tunney?


Tunney fought Demspey twice, he was the best puncher of the era. Also, Ali fought many guys who were were within the heavyweight limit but who were much smaller with decided disadvantages in height and reach.

[ChrisPontius]

Tho i've lost the article Tunney did indeed move boxing forward technically.

The article is right there on film. :good

[JohnThomas1]

The article is right there on film. :good

Fair call, and when i stumble back upon it it will be right here on ESB :yep

[SuzieQ49]

Are you aware that Geroge Godfrey would not fight Tunney? The papers make reference to this.

Are you aware Tunney record vs hall of fame fighter is something like 10-1? I think that is fine competition


otherway around. tunney would not fight godfrey. tunneys management ducked godfrey, they wanted no part of him. Historian Kevin Smith was kind enough to send me newspaper articles confirming this.



10-1 is misleading......most of those wins are over past there prime greats, or against much smaller fighters than tunney.



Tunney never fought a man over 200lb, never fought a black fighter......never fought a great fighter near their prime outside of harry greb who beat tunney twice despite being outweighed by at least 15lb.


On film. patterson, charles, walcott appear to me as the better boxers than tunney.

[janitor]

Not in those days.

Tunney was revolutionary skilled in that he did things that most boxers only learnt from the 30's.

I am not convinced that Tunney was a turning point in terms of technique.

I have seen contemporary articles describing Jem Mace, Jim Corbett and Terry McGovern as having turned a corner in technique but not Tunney.

Jack McAuliffe said that Gene Tunney was better than Jim Corbett but only because he was more powerfull and durable while posessing similar tools.

[ChrisPontius]

Corbett was ahead of his time, too. I don't know about Mace but i'll take your word on that one. It's just that i see fighters from the early 30's on use combinations, high guard, jabbing etc, while a lot of fighters before that (with a few exceptions, say Tunney, Dempsey and a few others) did not do that. I'm talking about heavyweights, by the way.