Mayweather & Current Legacy

[zivic1941]

This thread deals with a contemporary fighter, but I believe this belongs in this section because you folks deal with these things pretty well, and can compare and contrast legacies in a historical context well.

Have at it.

There has been a sentiment lately among some boxing folks, who are putting Mayweather up there with the great names of the past. I think Mayweather has a special skill set, but I think we need to scrutinize his accomplishments. Here goes....

In terms of opponents, his situation is not nearly as severe as what Roy Jones did for years, but when we're talking about all-time status, we need to analyze with care. I felt he accomplished a lot at 130, and was excellent at 135, but he actually didn't stay long enough at that weight.

The points Brian Kenny made in their contentious 2006 ESPN interview were valid at the time. At the time, he was getting ready to face Judah, who was coming off a loss. Mayweather had not faced the best at 140 prior to that. Kenny was right in what he said to Mayweather, but I did not approve of the way Kenny approached the issue, because it appeared as though he was purposely trying to start a food fight, which is real easy to do with Mayweather because he reacts viscerally to any hint of disrespect. However, when they got into it, the consensus among most was that Kenny won boxing's re-enactment of the 1992 Al Gore vs. Dan Quayle debate. Lots of vitriol and ad hominem anger, but it really didn't produce anything that was good for boxing.


Thereafter, he beat Judah, but lost several of the opening rounds. He beat Baldomir, who is a very tough and solid fighter, but not considered the real elite at 147 when you look at all of the options in 2006 and 2007. I've said my piece on Oscar. Prime Oscar at 140 probably beats Mayweather, and the 147 pound version of Oscar versus Mayweather is a tough fight I think Oscar wins as well. 135 pound version of Oscar is a big problem, too.

I think the 2000 version of Mosley beats the 147 version of Mayweather, and the 135 pound version of Mosley probably does the same to Mayweather because he was a superb body puncher at the time. Shoot, I think the 2002, welterweight version of Vernon Forrest would've beaten the 147 version of Mayweather. The jab, right hand, body punching, and size advantage are a huge problem for Mayweather.

It is important to note that neither Oscar nor Mosley are considered among the top 10 PFP welterweights in boxing history. Neither is Forrest. I think Oscar could've ranked among the top 10 PFP fighters in jr. welterweight history, but didn't stay long enough, and neither did Mayweather. With the exception of Castillo, Oscar actually fought more and better opponents at 135 than Mayweather did, but you don't hear many rank him on the all-time list at that weight either. At 130, Oscar just didn't---and couldn't--stay long enough to take his legacy seriously there.

From 135 to 147, Oscar's legacy is actually superior to that of Mayweather. Let's remember that this is a guy who, at one time between 1995 - 1997, fought in 10 championship fights, and the compiled records of his opposition was 447-13-6....many of those fighters had held, or were holding, world titles, and several had either one loss or were undefeated champions. Some were past their primes, but certainly, most were of more difficult ilk than what Mayweather has faced between those 3 divisions. Let's remember, this is all within 5 years of Oscar turning pro. His resume actually gets tougher and tougher from there with Quartey, Trinidad, 2000 version of Mosley, etc.

At 135, Mayweather fought Castillo twice---one which some felt he lost---and followed up with fights against Sosa and N'Dou....then left the division. His three fights at 140 were against Corley, Bruseles, and Gatti. Corley is a good fighter....I see him as an acid test between what separates a champion and a contender at 140....but that's it for Mayweather at that weight.

Mayweather has shown a tendency to skip around divisions to collect belts, but doesn't seem inclined to seek unification to create purity. We know that Paul Williams, Miguel Cotto (who is much, much better at 147 than he was at 140), Antonio Margarito, Kermit Cintron (whose stock is currently declining, but he can turn it around), and the older version of Shane Mosley are the elite at 147.

Most recently, we know that Ricky Hatton struggled with Collazo, looked pretty ordinary against Urango, and fought very, very well against Castillo, but Castillo was right on the cusp of being a shot fighter if you look at his previous two performances. Thus, one can deem this fight as certainly very interesting because of Hatton's accomplishments at 140 and the styles clash, but really, he's not nearly the top---or most dangerous---opponent at 147.

In my opinion, as soon as Paul Williams decisioned Margarito, if Mayweather really wanted to provide substance and purity, he would've called Williams out. He should've done the same after Cotto bludgeoned Judah. Instead, he goes for Hatton after Hatton disposes of the shot version of Castillo. Let's face it, Cotto has been more impressive than Mayweather thus far, this year in terms of what he did to Judah, and beating a still dangerous Mosley.

To add to all of this, let's look at Floyd's opponents after the 2002 bouts Jose Luis Castillo, and just before the Judah fight in 2006.

1. Victoriano Sosa (solid fighter, but lost to Spadafora)
2. Phillip N'Dou (hard puncher, but never beat anyone of note)
3. DeMarcus Corley (good fighter)
4. Henry Bruseles (no threat)
5. Arturo Gatti (not truly elite....look at his losses)
6. Sharmba Mitchell (shot fighter)

Which one of those opponents was truly dangerous to him as the elite I've mentioned at 147? None. Moreover, there were dangerous opponents for him at 140, but the fights never materialized.

All in all, I think Floyd Mayweather is right near the top on the list of the greatest 130 fighters in boxing history, but his legacy as an all-time great in any of the divisions thereafter deserves scrutiny. By the age of 30, Oscar's resume is actually superior to that of Mayweather, and he is not considered an all-time great fighter, and doesn't occupy the list of the top 5 or even top 10 pfp fighters in a lot of the divisions he competed in.

A lot of this talk about all-time status, especially coming from Floyd's uncle Roger, is really hype. He's a helluva fighter, but we really need to look at his propensity not to face the best in the last several years. I think he has a special skill set, but we need to see unification against tougher opponents to put him up high with the great fighters of the past.

Some additional evidence.

When Duran vacated 135 in 1978, a lot of people forget that his official, written, public challenge in the newspapers was to ALL CHAMPIONS UP TO 160 POUNDS. Win, lose, or draw, Leonard, Duran, Hearns, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles (who was a heckuva lightweight), Carmen Basilio, Bob Fitzsimmons, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, De La Hoya, Mosley, Trinidad unifying with DLH, and later going after Hopkins, Hopkins going after Tarver while coming off losses, Michael Spinks making history against Larry Holmes, Billy Conn almost beating Joe Louis, Harry Greb being ducked by Dempsey's management after outdueling him in sparring (while beating a host of world champions in higher weight classes than him...sometimes in the same year), Mickey Walker unconscionably going after Schmeling and Sharkey after vacating the middleweight title---and so many more in boxing history---.....always looked for the absolute best opponents they could face in their divisions.

Mayweather hasn't done the same.

[Mendoza]

I think Mayweather is an all time great, but I am bit more progressive than some other historians who prefer to keep things classic. It is best to wait and see how Mayweather finishes up his career. All we can do is rate Maywehather on what he has done to date.

Mayweather has special skills. He also has an " 0 " at the end of his record. I believe Mayweather is a sinch for the hall of fame, and will own at least two, possible 3-4 wins over hall of fame opponents when it’s all said and done.

[PowerPuncher]

Mayweather after Saturday night will have fought:

Top Tier

1. Linear and No1 at 130lbs in Genaro Hernandez
2. Linear/No1 at 135lbs in Castillo TWICE
3. Linear/No1 at 140lbs in Ricky Hatton
4. Linear/No1 at 147lbs in Baldomir
5. No1 at 154lbs in Delahoya

Secondary Tier

1. No 2 at 130 in Corrales
2. No2 at 147 Zab Judah

3rd Tier

1. Top5 at 130 Chavez
2. Top6 at 130 Manfredy
3. Top6 at 130 C Hernandez
4. top5 at 140 Gatti (who beat Dorin who beat Spadafora)
5. Mitchell - ex champ
6. Corley - top10 at 140

Fighters that have turned down Mayweather fights:

1. Hamed - linear at 126
2. Mosley - at 135/147
3. Cotto - at 140
4. Hatton - at 140

Who has gone through so many weight divisions? Who has been overcome been outweighed by 15-20lbs by the likes of Corrales/Castillo/Delahoya/Baldomir?

Floyd Armstrong is comparable P4P to Henry Armstrong, hes covered as much weight in terms of weight hopping and has beaten tougher opposition in doing so.

BTW would Mayweather have lost to Zivic or Ambers? I doubt it

[zivic1941]

It's not how many belts you collect, it's the actual level of competition at or near their prime(s).

I believe Hatton is the first current Top 10 PFP fighter Floyd Mayweather has faced since 2002, and Hatton is coming from a lower weight class to create that.

[PowerPuncher]

It's not how many belts you collect, it's the actual level of competition at or near their prime(s).

I believe Hatton is the first current Top 10 PFP fighter Floyd Mayweather has faced since 2002, and Hatton is coming from a lower weight class to create that.

Actually beating the top 2 fighters at 130/135/140/147/154 is what its all about. Henry Armstrong and Sugar Ray avoided the best at 147 in Burley to name 1. P4P is a modern phenomenon anyway

Corrales/Castillo/Hatton were all P4P top 10 and in their prime. Delahoya is a future ATG and much much bigger than Mayweather and coming off a good win to make him a champ. Judah was P4P Top10 before he lost to Baldomir. And Floyd beat both of them while Judah hit peak form. Genaro Hernandez may have been P4P top 10 I forget and GEnaro was favourate.

So what if Hatton is coming up from 140 - Mayweathers come from 130 himself and weighs less on fight night. Hatton's nutrionist says Ricky weighs 155-160 on fight night, Floyd says he weighs 148 on fight night. Floyds the smaller fighter.

Lets not forget Hatton and Cotto turned down a fight with Mayweather at 140. Hatton turned Mayweather down 5 times prior to 2007 according to Hatton's own father. You can't blame Floyd for not fighting the best at 140 - they weren't interested

[PowerPuncher]

Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles ), Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, De La Hoya, Mosley, Trinidad unifying with DLH, and later going after Hopkins, always looked for the absolute best opponents they could face in their divisions.

Mayweather hasn't done the same.

BULLSHIT lets apply the standards you apply to Mayweather to these fighters:

Duran - missed the best at 140,154 and lost against the best he faced - Pryor, McCallum,

Leonard - missed the best from 140/154 - Pryor/McCallum/Hearns rematch/Hagler rematch

Armstrong/Robinson - both ducked Burley and the blk dynamite crew

Delahoya - Whitaker and Quartey rematches after getting gifts

Trinidad - avoided skilled boxers and schooled when he stepped up against skilled boxers

Mosley - Agree BUT turned down Mayweather

[rekcutnevets]

Mayweather's only controversial win was immediately avenged against Castillo.

De la Hoya's have yet to take place. Whitaker, Quartey, and Sturm are still wondering what happened.

Mayweather started 2 divisions below Hatton. I can't really say Floyd is the bigger man.

Oscar has gone on to lose. Mayweather has yet to do so.

Who did Oscar beat, without any controversy, that was in his prime and so far above Mayweather's victims? Chavez was past him prime. His best wins are against Vargas, and I'll give him Trinidad because he should have gotten that one.

De la Hoya lost to every other elite fighter he faced. Mosley, Hopkins, and Mayweather.

I don't know where Mayweather ranks all time just yet. If he is capable of defeating Hatton, it will help him.

[zivic1941]

You quote: " Duran - missed the best at 140,154 and lost against the best he faced - Pryor, McCallum,"

Please read the first post again. Duran published a newspaper challenge in 1978 to all champs all the way to 160. Please don't distort facts. He never fought at 140 because nobody accepted the challenge. Pryor became champ at 140 in 1980, when Duran was fighting bigger and more important game in Leonard at 147. Duran had actually moved to 147 in 1979. Once again, he went to 147 instead and fought the best PFP fighter in the sport.....Sugar Ray Leonard. He later fought Hagler for the 160 pound title, and gave Hagler problems in 1983. He lost to Benitez in 1982. Please don't even compare the careers of Duran and Mayweather and level of competition.....it's not even in the same stratosphere. Duran peaked as a lightweight, and had close to 70 professional fights by the time he moved up in weight. After 1978, it's all gravy, and thick.



You quote: "Leonard - missed the best from 140/154 - Pryor/McCallum/Hearns rematch/Hagler rematch"

Leonard never fought at 140. He beat Benitez for the 147 pound title. Unified against Hearns, while banking the 154 pound title from Kalule in 1981. The best 154 pounder in 1981 was Benitez, who Leonard had already beaten. After 3 years of retirement, Leonard beat Hagler in a close bout for the 160 pound championship. McCallum had not won a championship until 1984, when Leonard was retired.

You quote: "Armstrong/Robinson - both ducked Burley and the blk dynamite crew"

Look at the overall careers of Armstrong & SRR - Mayweather isn't in the same league in terms of quality of opposition. It's really not a worthwhile comparison

You quote: "Delahoya - Whitaker and Quartey rematches after getting gifts"

De La Hoya was farther past his prime against Mayweather than Whitaker was against De La Hoya. De La Hoya was about 3-3 in his last 6 fights before fighting Mayweather as well, if one takes into account that he actually lost to Sturm. He peaked between 140-147 pounds. De La Hoya ended up fighting a much more dangerous opponent in a pure unification match with Trinidad instead of rematching Quartey. As we know, most thought he won the fight, and he clearly won the Quartey fight by pulling that one out of the clutch in the 12th.

You quote: "Trinidad - avoided skilled boxers and schooled when he stepped up against skilled boxers"

This is rubbish. Trinidad and his father were always fighting with Don King about getting big money and name opponents prior to DLH. In the end, Trinidad & De La Hoya met when De La Hoya was near his peak, and DLH was indeed a Top 10 PFP fighter---right near the top---at that time, and a skilled technician at the time. Trinidad never avoided anyone. Don King steered him in a certain direction prior to DLH. One thing to admire about Trinidad, win, lose, or draw, he took chances against the best.

You quote: "Mosley - Agree BUT turned down Mayweather"

Show me the press release in complete context. The timing, the contract offer, who either was pending to fight at the time. All told, Mosley has fought more dangerous opposition since 2002 than Mayweather.

[zivic1941]

Actually beating the top 2 fighters at 130/135/140/147/154 is what its all about. Henry Armstrong and Sugar Ray avoided the best at 147 in Burley to name 1. P4P is a modern phenomenon anyway

Corrales/Castillo/Hatton were all P4P top 10 and in their prime. Delahoya is a future ATG and much much bigger than Mayweather and coming off a good win to make him a champ. Judah was P4P Top10 before he lost to Baldomir. And Floyd beat both of them while Judah hit peak form. Genaro Hernandez may have been P4P top 10 I forget and GEnaro was favourate.

So what if Hatton is coming up from 140 - Mayweathers come from 130 himself and weighs less on fight night. Hatton's nutrionist says Ricky weighs 155-160 on fight night, Floyd says he weighs 148 on fight night. Floyds the smaller fighter.

Lets not forget Hatton and Cotto turned down a fight with Mayweather at 140. Hatton turned Mayweather down 5 times prior to 2007 according to Hatton's own father. You can't blame Floyd for not fighting the best at 140 - they weren't interested
Once again, please read the first post again if you can.

1) Hatton is the first top 10 PFP fighter Mayweather has faced since 2002. Once again, look at the depth of opposition Armstrong and Robinson faced in their careers.....over a 5 year period compared to Mayweather. It's not even close.

As we all know, Burley had severe management issues. He allowed Zivic's management to buy out his contract, and that cost him. Losing to the middleweight version of Ezzard Charles hurt him, too. Charles was not yet 21 when he aced Burley twice in 1942. I've written about Burley many times in articles about his 1944 fight with Archie Moore, his series against Holman Williams, his losses to Charles, and his fights with Zivic. He, along with Sam Langford, is perhaps the best epitome of an uncrowned champ in history.

2) I already covered the DLH issue in the previous post.

3) Judah proved he wasn't top 10 by losing to Baldomir. Judah wasn't in peak for when he fought either, and has proven to be a front runner. He'd already been knocked out by Tszyu.

4) The Hernandez fight was 9 years ago. If you'd read the first post (again), I think Mayweather is right around the top of all jr. lightweights in history. Where Mayweather runs into problems is post-2002.

5) The issue with Hatton is that he didn't perform well previously at 147. Many felt he actually lost to Collazo. Collazo might've won one or two rounds against Mosley. Scores were in the range of 119-108 or 118-109.

6) I don't recall Cotto or Hatton officially turning down challenges. Please show copies of the press releases.

[rekcutnevets]

I don't have any press releases of Hatton turning down a fight with Mayweather. I do recall watching a segment with him, when he was a guest on ESPN's Friday Night Fights, and he stated that he needed to fight at least once(or once more) in the US before fighting Mayweather. Mayweather's people had tried to make a fight with him around the time of Mayweather's fight with Gatti. Hatton did state that they were not yet interested.

Mayweather then went to 147.

[zivic1941]

Zivic would have been a nightmare opponents for floyd.
It depends on which Zivic shows up. He could fight like one of the top fighters in the sport on one night, and fight like a club fighter in his next fight.

One thing is for sure, as like many of the fighters mentioned in this thread, with the exception of some of Sugar Ray Robinson's hardball tactics at the negotiating table throughout his career, "risk and reward" is a term not often associated with many of the fighters mentioned.......especially in their primes......it does apply.....and often....to Mayweather. By the time Sugar Ray Leonard was 25, he had fought Benitez, Duran twice, and unified with Hearns. Pure, HOF opposition.

Mayweather is a very good fighter. Great skill set. One of the best 130 pounders in history. Very dedicated fighter as far as being in shape and practicing his craft. I guess in a way he's entitled to flash the fruits of his labor, although excessive ostentation creates lots of backlash. In his defense, Jack Johnson would certainly be worse than Mayweather today if he was born in 1978 instead of 1878.

Above 130, however, he's arguably 1-1 with Castillo, who was Julio Cesar Chavez's sparring partner. If Mayweather had the opportunity to fight the level of competition Duran, Leonard, Benitez, Hearns, Sugar Ray Robinson, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and the other mentioned on this thread, he'd have several losses on his ledger, some by knockout.

As it stands, Mayweather is a businessman first, and a fighter second. He looks at his opportunities, assesses the risk, and moves accordingly. He's not being as aggressive as Pacquiao, the Marquez brothers, Winky Wright, and several other fighters have been in seeking out the most elite competition possible. As stated, up until now, he has not fought a Top 10 PFP fighter since 2002, and that fighter, Ricky Hatton, arguably lost to Luis Collazo. Collazo won 1 or 2 rounds against Mosley. Once again, Oscar De La Hoya was really about 3-3 before Mayweather (he actually lost to Sturm), and who did Oscar win that 154 pound? Ricardo Mayorga.

What Mayweather needs to do, and should've done in the past, is try to unify instead of pricing himself out of fights.

[zivic1941]

I don't have any press releases of Hatton turning down a fight with Mayweather. I do recall watching a segment with him, when he was a guest on ESPN's Friday Night Fights, and he stated that he needed to fight at least once(or once more) in the US before fighting Mayweather. Mayweather's people had tried to make a fight with him around the time of Mayweather's fight with Gatti. Hatton did state that they were not yet interested.

Mayweather then went to 147.

I want an official press release that shows everything in context. Contractual obligations and other issues come into play a lot of the time, and Floyd is known for making exorbinant purse split demands for big fights while he pursues lesser fights for disproportionate reward.

[enquirer]

Zivic,i think your posts express exactly the way i feel about mayweathers 'achievements'....Recently he has fought nobody and is a businessman like hopkins.
What annoys me most about him is his absolutely meritless and absurd claim of being the best ever,coupled with his childish boring arrogant personality....

[zivic1941]

Zivic,i think your posts express exactly the way i feel about mayweathers 'achievements'....Recently he has fought nobody and is a businessman like hopkins.
What annoys me most about him is his absolutely meritless and absurd claim of being the best ever,coupled with his childish boring arrogant personality....
He's a real good fighter, but to back up his claim, he needs to do more against different opposition. A lot of the criticism he received from Brian Kenny was indeed correct, although it was done in a way that brought out the worst in Floyd Mayweather. Any hint of criticism or disrespect, and he becomes viscerally angry. It's not the case with a lot of the other fighters mentioned in the thread. They didn't have to defend the picking of their opponents because they had either already fought the best, were rematching the best, or were about to fight the best.

Hopkins has become more of a businessman as he'd gotten older. In his defense, however, he was not obligated to fight Jermain Taylor, but put it on the line regardless. When he lost the decision, BOTH Hopkins & Taylor were ranked in the Top 10 PFP category by the time of their rematch. When Hopkins lost the rematch, he did what most haven't done in boxing history, went after the top, #1 light heavyweight in the world, the man who knocked out Roy Jones. He aced Tarver over 12 rounds. Very few middleweight champions have done that. Hagler didn't step up to 175, and Monzon didn't to step to 175. Sugar Ray Robinson gave it a go, and lost to Maxim, despite being ahead on the cards at the time he collapsed. Dick Tiger did it legitimately. Zale went after Conn, although Conn had vacated months before to go after Louis. Ketchel actually went after Johnson, and Walker actually went after heavyweight champions. Greb essentially beat most of the top light heavyweights in the world while he was a middleweight, and is the only man to beat Gene Tunney. All told, it's rare in contemporary boxing to do that. So, Hopkins gets more upside than Mayweather if you look at what he accomplished when he beat Tarver. With Winky Wright, I give him upside for going after Hopkins, but it really was too heavy a weight for him. If Hopkins should be doing anything, it's either fighting Chad Dawson, or being less of a businessman with Calzaghe......or retire....he's had a great career.

Jermain Taylor, despite his flaws, deserves credit for going after Hopkins when he had fought relatively anemic opposition prior to stepping up to that class. After the Hopkins fights, who does he fight? Winky Wright.....who was considered among the Top 3 PFP fighters in the sport at the time, and it was a very close fight. After that, I think he was steered incorrectly in myriad ways by fighting Ouma and Spinks. Because of his regression, I had his fight with Pavlik as pick 'em, plus the fact that Pavlik was the first puncher he had ever faced. But....this is a fighter who put it all on the line against the best fighters he could face....Hopkins twice...Wright....Pavlik (mandatory #1 after knocking out Miranda).

I gotta go. I'll check back on the board on Saturday afternoon.

[Thread Stealer]

De La Hoya ended up fighting a much more dangerous opponent in a pure unification match with Trinidad instead of rematching Quartey. As we know, most thought he won the fight, and he clearly won the Quartey fight by pulling that one out of the clutch in the 12th.


You're usually on point with your posts, but this is nonsense.

Oscar only won that fight if you're being generous to him on the cards. Nothing clear about that win at all.

[Thread Stealer]

Mayweather is a terrific fighter, but almost any modern day fighter is going to come up short in the thickness of resume department compared to fighters in the past like Robinson and Armstrong who fought so much more often.

What I would like to do is compare Mayweather to the other top fighters in recent years, among this era. Mayweather's opposition level, while solid, could've been better in the last few years. He's got to do more before establishing himself as the best of this era, rather than being one of the top ones. The p4p thing, not beating too many top 10 guys, well, I don't really hold that against him. Going by The Ring's top 10 p4p lists, DLH only beat one top 10 p4p guy, and that was a controversial decision over Whitaker. Tito only beat one, and that was controversial (Oscar). Mayweather has beaten one and maybe will have two on Saturday. As for Hatton moving up, well, Hatton did more are 147 (winning close decision over top 5 WW after moving up on short notice) than guys like say, Nelson @ 135 or Chavez @ 147. Sure, Hatton isn't an ATG like those two, but he also will likely enter the ring on Saturday as the heavier man, which I doubt Nelson and Chavez were over Whitaker. Oscar made a whole habit out of having guys move up to face him...this is Floyd's 2nd time doing so.

[Minotauro]

BULLSHIT lets apply the standards you apply to Mayweather to these fighters:

Duran - missed the best at 140,154 and lost against the best he faced - Pryor, McCallum,

Leonard - missed the best from 140/154 - Pryor/McCallum/Hearns rematch/Hagler rematch

Armstrong/Robinson - both ducked Burley and the blk dynamite crew

Delahoya - Whitaker and Quartey rematches after getting gifts

Trinidad - avoided skilled boxers and schooled when he stepped up against skilled boxers

Mosley - Agree BUT turned down Mayweather

Amstrong did not duck Burley it was due to poor management on Burley's behalf that this fight never happened. His contract was bought out by Zivic people and obvious they wanted Zivic to get a title shot who was more marketable. And sure the Burley fight was a possibility for Robinson but by the time he won the title Burley was fighting at 160lbs and probably couldn't have made 147lbs he even struggled with the weight in his early fights like mot making weight for one of the Zivic fights.

Hardly any of the black murders row (black dynamite crew was decades before) were ranked fighters when Ray was champ at 147lbs and when he went to 160lbs most of them were fighting at higher weights (Marshall and Bivins) or were finished I believe Holman Williams retired the same year and Eddie Booker hung up his gloves earlier. Do your research before making these claims. It like saying when Floyd won the welterweight title Taylor was main man at 160lbs so if Jermain was calling out Mayweather and the fight never happened it would be because Floyd ducked him?

And you failed to mention how Mayweather failed to fight Tszyu who was a nightmare match up for boxers who relied on there speed due to his power, accuracy and timing.

[Robbi]

Mayweather is a terrific fighter, but almost any modern day fighter is going to come up short in the thickness of resume department compared to fighters in the past like Robinson and Armstrong who fought so much more often.

What I would like to do is compare Mayweather to the other top fighters in recent years, among this era. Mayweather's opposition level, while solid, could've been better in the last few years. He's got to do more before establishing himself as the best of this era, rather than being one of the top ones. The p4p thing, not beating too many top 10 guys, well, I don't really hold that against him. Going by The Ring's top 10 p4p lists, DLH only beat one top 10 p4p guy, and that was a controversial decision over Whitaker. Tito only beat one, and that was controversial (Oscar). Mayweather has beaten one and maybe will have two on Saturday. As for Hatton moving up, well, Hatton did more are 147 (winning close decision over top 5 WW after moving up on short notice) than guys like say, Nelson @ 135 or Chavez @ 147. Sure, Hatton isn't an ATG like those two, but he also will likely enter the ring on Saturday as the heavier man, which I doubt Nelson and Chavez were over Whitaker. Oscar made a whole habit out of having guys move up to face him...this is Floyd's 2nd time doing so.

Quartey was a top 10 P4P fighter, the bottom half.

[Thread Stealer]

Quartey was a top 10 P4P fighter, the bottom half.

In reality, he probably was deserving (in terms of skills/talent/ability).

But I'm talking about the official p4p lists from The Ring.

Personally I think way too much is made out of this mythical stuff.

[PowerPuncher]

You quote: " Duran - missed the best at 140,154 and lost against the best he faced - Pryor, McCallum,"

1. Please read the first post again. Duran published a newspaper challenge in 1978 to all champs all the way to 160. Please don't distort facts. He never fought at 140 because nobody accepted the challenge. Pryor became champ at 140 in 1980, when Duran was fighting bigger and more important game in Leonard at 147.

2. Duran peaked as a lightweight, and had close to 70 professional fights by the time he moved up in weight. After 1978, it's all gravy, and thick.

3. You quote: "Leonard - missed the best from 140/154 - Pryor/McCallum/Hearns rematch/Hagler rematch"

Leonard never fought at 140. He beat Benitez for the 147 pound title. Unified against Hearns, while banking the 154 pound title from Kalule in 1981.


You quote: "Armstrong/Robinson - both ducked Burley and the blk dynamite crew"

4. Look at the overall careers of Armstrong & SRR - Mayweather isn't in the same league in terms of quality of opposition. It's really not a worthwhile comparison

You quote: "Delahoya - Whitaker and Quartey rematches after getting gifts"

5. De La Hoya was farther past his prime against Mayweather than Whitaker was against De La Hoya. De La Hoya was about 3-3 in his last 6 fights before fighting Mayweather as well, if one takes into account that he actually lost to Sturm. He peaked between 140-147 pounds.

6. De La Hoya ended up fighting a much more dangerous opponent in a pure unification match with Trinidad instead of rematching Quartey. As we know, most thought he won the fight, and he clearly won the Quartey fight by pulling that one out of the clutch in the 12th.

7. One thing to admire about Trinidad, win, lose, or draw, he took chances against the best.

8. You quote: "Mosley - Agree BUT turned down Mayweather"

Show me the press release in complete context. The timing, the contract offer, who either was pending to fight at the time.

9. All told, Mosley has fought more dangerous opposition since 2002 than Mayweather.

1. So What? Mayweather put a chalenge down when he was at 135 'anyone up to 147' and he moved to 154 to egt delahoya.

2. Yes and Mayweather peaked at 130, hes now at 147 - thats like Duran at 154. Mayweather is far more dominant at 147 than Duran was at 154. Remember Duran got whooped by Hearns, Benitez and Laing at 154

3. Leonard fought the best but he missed many of the elite top fighters and avoided the Hearns rematch, Pryor and so on......

4. Overall SRR and Armstrong ducked the black dynamite crew. How many top10 P4P fighters did SRR and Armstrong face off with? Well they didn't fight Charles, Burley, Moore etc etc

5. Who says Delahoya was further past his prime against PBF than Whitaker was against Delahoya? Delahoya had 1 of his best career performances 10 months earlier so thats not the best argument. If you're going to take Sturn away from Delahoya do you give him Mosley 2?

6. NO NO NO Delahoya fought Carr instead of Quartey. Quartey easily won 9 rounds against Delahoya EASILY. Remember when Mayweather had a similar time when he had a close fight with Castillo? Did he duck Castillo or rematch him?

7. Yes and against the best Trinidad got whooped. Who did Trinidad ever beat who was P4P excluding the Delahoya gift?

8. Mosley has excellent comp but hes lost 5 times since 2002.

I don't hold this career management against these fighters that much but the double standards and rose tinted glasses need to be shown up for what they are

[PowerPuncher]

Once again, please read the first post again if you can.

1) Hatton is the first top 10 PFP fighter Mayweather has faced since 2002.

1a) Once again, look at the depth of opposition Armstrong and Robinson faced in their careers.....over a 5 year period compared to Mayweather. It's not even close.

1b) As we all know, Burley had severe management issues. He allowed Zivic's management to buy out his contract, and that cost him. Losing to the middleweight version of Ezzard Charles hurt him, too. Charles was not yet 21 when he aced Burley twice in 1942. I've written about Burley many times in articles about his 1944 fight with Archie Moore, his series against Holman Williams, his losses to Charles, and his fights with Zivic. He, along with Sam Langford, is perhaps the best epitome of an uncrowned champ in history.


3) Judah proved he wasn't top 10 by losing to Baldomir. Judah wasn't in peak for when he fought either, and has proven to be a front runner. He'd already been knocked out by Tszyu.

4) The Hernandez fight was 9 years ago. If you'd read the first post (again), I think Mayweather is right around the top of all jr. lightweights in history. Where Mayweather runs into problems is post-2002.

5) The issue with Hatton is that he didn't perform well previously at 147. Many felt he actually lost to Collazo. Collazo might've won one or two rounds against Mosley. Scores were in the range of 119-108 or 118-109.

6) I don't recall Cotto or Hatton officially turning down challenges. Please show copies of the press releases.

1. Which P4P fighter did you want him to face since 2002?????? Tyszu - unavailable. Hatton - turned him down. Cotto-turned him down and only recently P4P. Spinks - lost, Judah - lost and beat him There was no P4P fighters from 140-147 other than Floyd and Hatton and Hatton kept turning him down

1a) How many P4P fighters did SRR and Armstrong face?

1b) We can agree Burley was a legend.

3) If you were PBF in 2005 and Hatton and Cotto had turned you down at 140 and you had the P4P Judah at 147, isnt P4P Judah the best fight to make? Its not Mayweathers fault Judah underestimated Baldomir and lost.

I think your being unfair underestimating the Judah win. Judah showed his best against Mayweather and did pretty well early on.

4) I think your looking at 2002-2005 too much when there were no big fights to make. 2006 and 2007 have been excellent comp Judah, Baldomir, Delahoya, Hatton. 4 Linear Champs back to back.

5) Well yes but Hatton-Mayweather is historical because they were 1 and 2 at 140lbs. Hatton is bigger than Mayweather, its testiment that to Mayweather he has beaten the top 147 and 154lbers while essentially been smaller than many lightweights.

I actually think a well prepared Hatton is a serious danger to Floyd. Then again as a PBF fan I was worried about the problems Mitchell, Judah and DLH would present. (No I wasn't worried about Baldomir stylistically but Baldomir is very underrated)

6. Hatton's father stated they had turned down Mayweathers talks of the fights 5 times from 2004-2006. Mayweather wanted his first fight at 140 to be Hatton instead of Corley, he wanted Hatton in November 2005 instead of Mitchell, he wanted Hatton to fill in for Judah when Judah lost in 2006.

It wouldnt have been a big fight back in 2004 but it may have happened.

This is public knowledge I don't need to show press releases but start a thread on the general forum asking about it and you'll get the info.

Arrum himself said Cotto wasn't ready for PBF at 140 - again this is public knowledge. I'm nto going diggin for the articles but its there if you want to find it

[PowerPuncher]

And you failed to mention how Mayweather failed to fight Tszyu who was a nightmare match up for boxers who relied on there speed due to his power, accuracy and timing.

Mayweather and Hatton both offered fights to Tyszu, Tyszu took the bigger money from Hatton, the rest is history

Are you claiming Mayweather is would make the same mistakes as Judah and Mitchell against Tyszu?

[Minotauro]

Mayweather and Hatton both offered fights to Tyszu, Tyszu took the bigger money from Hatton, the rest is history

Are you claiming Mayweather is would make the same mistakes as Judah and Mitchell against Tyszu?

Exactly you mention that it was Tyszu fault the fight was not made but then say Armstrong ducked Burley how is it Mayweather is excused but not Armstrong. You have only mentioned by point about Tyszu yet ignored the facts I mentioned defending both Robinson and Armstrong and even if both guys refused or didn't face some top guys they still have some huge wins is there anyone on Mayweather record that compares to Ambers, Ross, Zivic, Sarron or the like of Gavilan, LaMotta, Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin & Graziano. Don't criticize them on not fighting people when they fought so many quality fighters they didn't have to.

Not saying Tyszu would beat Mayweather or not but he was miles better then anyone Floyd fought at 140lbs.

P.S Burley and co were never part of the black dynamite crew those guys were years before them.

[PowerPuncher]

1. Exactly you mention that it was Tyszu fault the fight was not made but then say Armstrong ducked Burley how is it Mayweather is excused but not Armstrong. You have only mentioned by point about Tyszu yet ignored the facts I mentioned defending both Robinson and Armstrong and even if both guys refused or didn't face some top guys they still have some huge wins

2. Is there anyone on Mayweather record that compares to Ambers, Ross, Zivic, Sarron or the like of Gavilan, LaMotta, Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin & Graziano. Don't criticize them on not fighting people when they fought so many quality fighters they didn't have to.

3. Not saying Tyszu would beat Mayweather or not but he was miles better then anyone Floyd fought at 140lbs.

4. P.S Burley and co were never part of the black dynamite crew those guys were years before them.

4. Yes I always get the black dynamite and the the black murders row mixed up. I think I'll start calling them both the ducked black murderers dynamite row

1. I wasn't being completely Anti-Armstrong I was trying to demonstrate that Mayweather may not have fought all the best fighters around his weight but most fighters in history didnt including SRR and Armstrong.

I also think that Armstrong despite being an excellent fighters gets a little overrated at welterweight as his comp wasn't devastating.

2. How do Delahoya, Hatton, Judah, Castillo, Corrales, Genaro Hernadez, Chavez, Gatti compare to Ambers, Ross, Zivic, Sarron or the like of Gavilan, LaMotta, Basilio, Fullmer, Turpin & Graziano??????? Is there that many degrees of seperation?

3. Yes Tyszu was very good but I think a 170lb Delahoya with his skills and defense was a tougher fight than a 35yo Tyszu - agree or disagree? Delahoya ko'd some joint opponents quicker

[dmt]

Floyd Armstrong is comparable P4P to Henry Armstrong, hes covered as much weight in terms of weight hopping and has beaten tougher opposition in doing so.

BTW would Mayweather have lost to Zivic or Ambers? I doubt itno offense but this is not true. Armstrong made 19 title defenses at welterweight. Besides If Pretty boy was fighting 30 times a year then he could lose to Zivc or Ambers (do u know what a dirty player Zivic was)

[sweet_scientist]

What I would like to do is compare Mayweather to the other top fighters in recent years, among this era. Mayweather's opposition level, while solid, could've been better in the last few years. He's got to do more before establishing himself as the best of this era, rather than being one of the top ones. The p4p thing, not beating too many top 10 guys, well, I don't really hold that against him. Going by The Ring's top 10 p4p lists, DLH only beat one top 10 p4p guy, and that was a controversial decision over Whitaker.
Most think he beat Tito though. And I'd definitely say Tito is a better welterweight (and fighter per se) than Ricky Hatton.


Tito only beat one, and that was controversial (Oscar). Mayweather has beaten one and maybe will have two on Saturday. As for Hatton moving up, well, Hatton did more are 147 (winning close decision over top 5 WW after moving up on short notice) than guys like say, Nelson @ 135 or Chavez @ 147. Sure, Hatton isn't an ATG like those two, but he also will likely enter the ring on Saturday as the heavier man, which I doubt Nelson and Chavez were over Whitaker. Oscar made a whole habit out of having guys move up to face him...this is Floyd's 2nd time doing so.
It's one thing moving up and facing Luis Collazo and its another thing moving up and facing Pernell Whtiaker. What if Hatton had to move up and face Pernell Whitaker? We can almost say with certainty he would have been moving back down to 140 with his tail between his legs. And probably in more embarassing fashion than Nelson or Chavez did to their respective divisions.

[PowerPuncher]

no offense but this is not true. Armstrong made 19 title defenses at welterweight. Besides If Pretty boy was fighting 30 times a year then he could lose to Zivc or Ambers (do u know what a dirty player Zivic was)

Most of Armstrong defenses were journeymen, so while 20 defenses sounds impressive its not 20 quality fights, most of them were easy pickings.

[zivic1941]

1. Right at the top of 130 pounders in boxing history.

2. In my opinion, split fights with Castillo at lightweight, with a few other defenses.

3. Won a belt at 140, defended a few times.

4. Has done more at 147 than 140. Beating Baldomir (who reminds me of Armando Muniz), now defending against the best 140 pounder. Fought a close decision against Oscar at 154, albeit one can make the argument that Oscar was 3-3 going into that fight (actually lost to Sturm).

Here's the issue, and it's pretty simple. If you and your camp are talking about being one of the greatest---if not the greatest---fighter ever, back it up with unification. Part of the reason boxing has suffered is because casual fans can't name champs. Too much fragmentation. Floyd has been a culprit along those lines for a while.

Calzaghe and Kessler unified at 168.

We know that Hopkins is really considered the top dog at 175 after acing Tarver.

We all consider Kelly Pavlik the man at 160.

154 is an open book. Remember, DLH won that belt from Mayorga before losing the close decision to Mayweather. At 154 as well, Vernon Forrest, past his prime and prone to injuries in the last several years, was more impressive against Baldomir at that weight than Mayweather was at 147.

Pac, Marquez, Barrera, and Morales never had trouble signing on the dotted line against each other.

Wherever Mayweather seems to go, we don't have the clarity we have in other divisions.

147 is a hot weight class. Be a champ, ask for a tournament. In 2001, King put together the middleweight tournament, and the fighters and promoters should ask for the same. After Cintron heals, and if Mayweather wins tonight, put it together. Cintron and Williams were already moving in that direction anyways.

In early summer/late spring, do this.

1) Match Mayweather with Williams.
2) Match Cotto with Cintron. If Cintron is still injured, substitute with Margarito---Arum had been talking about Margarito - Cotto anyways this past year---and put a contractual stipulation in place which guarantees Cintron an automatic #1 contender place when the tournament finalizes.

In the late Fall, the winners meet and unify. As stated, Cintron meets the winner of the tournament in the Spring of 2009.

Personally, I don't think Mayweather would make it to the finals (Williams is a very hard styles match-up), and I doubt you'll hear him call out the other champs tonight. It would be refreshing if he would, because we haven't seen him fighting the best available guys for quite a while. Let's face it, Hatton---a good, tough, game fighter---might've actually lost to Collazo. Collazo won maybe 1 or 2 rounds against Mosley.

It's one of the reasons Emanuel Steward calls Mayweather a "very good" fighter, but not a great fighter like those Mayweather likes to mention himself along with.

I agree with that sentiment. I like watching Mayweather fight. He has perfect balance. Superb technician. Always in shape. But.....he's one of those guys that leaves you with the feeling that he's not going to dig, dig, dig to make sure he puts himself over the top completely.

As a micro way of looking at this, when Oscar pounded away in the corners against him, he slipped, and then HELD....and moved to the center of the ring....and continued to slip in reverse gear instead of firing myriad combinations to turn the tide of the bout and make it a dominant win. Always does that. Why not do what Sugar Ray Leonard, James Toney, Sugar Ray Robinson, and so many other have done.....go ahead and slip....and then nail the guy with your own to close the level of doubt. SAFETY FIRST.

I'll be back to answer some more of this thread later today.

[zivic1941]

no offense but this is not true. Armstrong made 19 title defenses at welterweight. Besides If Pretty boy was fighting 30 times a year then he could lose to Zivc or Ambers (do u know what a dirty player Zivic was)
The more you fight, you more you are risking a chance to lose. True statement.

Fritzie Zivic is in the Hall of Fame. He lost 65 TIMES. Why is he in the Hall of Fame? All you have to do is listen to the quotes of Robinson and LaMotta. Robinson said Zivic was his toughest opponent, and LaMotta said Zivic was his smartest opponent. Look at the combined resumes of those fighters, and their place in boxing history.

In the end, it's about putting it all on the line.

[zivic1941]

You're usually on point with your posts, but this is nonsense.

Oscar only won that fight if you're being generous to him on the cards. Nothing clear about that win at all.

7-5 fight for Oscar, and put completely over the top with the last round knockdown and near stoppage.

[Olu G. Rotimi]

This thread deals with a contemporary fighter, but I believe this belongs in this section because you folks deal with these things pretty well, and can compare and contrast legacies in a historical context well.

Have at it.

There has been a sentiment lately among some boxing folks, who are putting Mayweather up there with the great names of the past. I think Mayweather has a special skill set, but I think we need to scrutinize his accomplishments. Here goes....

In terms of opponents, his situation is not nearly as severe as what Roy Jones did for years, but when we're talking about all-time status, we need to analyze with care. I felt he accomplished a lot at 130, and was excellent at 135, but he actually didn't stay long enough at that weight.

The points Brian Kenny made in their contentious 2006 ESPN interview were valid at the time. At the time, he was getting ready to face Judah, who was coming off a loss. Mayweather had not faced the best at 140 prior to that. Kenny was right in what he said to Mayweather, but I did not approve of the way Kenny approached the issue, because it appeared as though he was purposely trying to start a food fight, which is real easy to do with Mayweather because he reacts viscerally to any hint of disrespect. However, when they got into it, the consensus among most was that Kenny won boxing's re-enactment of the 1992 Al Gore vs. Dan Quayle debate. Lots of vitriol and ad hominem anger, but it really didn't produce anything that was good for boxing.


Thereafter, he beat Judah, but lost several of the opening rounds. He beat Baldomir, who is a very tough and solid fighter, but not considered the real elite at 147 when you look at all of the options in 2006 and 2007. I've said my piece on Oscar. Prime Oscar at 140 probably beats Mayweather, and the 147 pound version of Oscar versus Mayweather is a tough fight I think Oscar wins as well. 135 pound version of Oscar is a big problem, too.

I think the 2000 version of Mosley beats the 147 version of Mayweather, and the 135 pound version of Mosley probably does the same to Mayweather because he was a superb body puncher at the time. Shoot, I think the 2002, welterweight version of Vernon Forrest would've beaten the 147 version of Mayweather. The jab, right hand, body punching, and size advantage are a huge problem for Mayweather.

It is important to note that neither Oscar nor Mosley are considered among the top 10 PFP welterweights in boxing history. Neither is Forrest. I think Oscar could've ranked among the top 10 PFP fighters in jr. welterweight history, but didn't stay long enough, and neither did Mayweather. With the exception of Castillo, Oscar actually fought more and better opponents at 135 than Mayweather did, but you don't hear many rank him on the all-time list at that weight either. At 130, Oscar just didn't---and couldn't--stay long enough to take his legacy seriously there.

From 135 to 147, Oscar's legacy is actually superior to that of Mayweather. Let's remember that this is a guy who, at one time between 1995 - 1997, fought in 10 championship fights, and the compiled records of his opposition was 447-13-6....many of those fighters had held, or were holding, world titles, and several had either one loss or were undefeated champions. Some were past their primes, but certainly, most were of more difficult ilk than what Mayweather has faced between those 3 divisions. Let's remember, this is all within 5 years of Oscar turning pro. His resume actually gets tougher and tougher from there with Quartey, Trinidad, 2000 version of Mosley, etc.

At 135, Mayweather fought Castillo twice---one which some felt he lost---and followed up with fights against Sosa and N'Dou....then left the division. His three fights at 140 were against Corley, Bruseles, and Gatti. Corley is a good fighter....I see him as an acid test between what separates a champion and a contender at 140....but that's it for Mayweather at that weight.

Mayweather has shown a tendency to skip around divisions to collect belts, but doesn't seem inclined to seek unification to create purity. We know that Paul Williams, Miguel Cotto (who is much, much better at 147 than he was at 140), Antonio Margarito, Kermit Cintron (whose stock is currently declining, but he can turn it around), and the older version of Shane Mosley are the elite at 147.

Most recently, we know that Ricky Hatton struggled with Collazo, looked pretty ordinary against Urango, and fought very, very well against Castillo, but Castillo was right on the cusp of being a shot fighter if you look at his previous two performances. Thus, one can deem this fight as certainly very interesting because of Hatton's accomplishments at 140 and the styles clash, but really, he's not nearly the top---or most dangerous---opponent at 147.

In my opinion, as soon as Paul Williams decisioned Margarito, if Mayweather really wanted to provide substance and purity, he would've called Williams out. He should've done the same after Cotto bludgeoned Judah. Instead, he goes for Hatton after Hatton disposes of the shot version of Castillo. Let's face it, Cotto has been more impressive than Mayweather thus far, this year in terms of what he did to Judah, and beating a still dangerous Mosley.

To add to all of this, let's look at Floyd's opponents after the 2002 bouts Jose Luis Castillo, and just before the Judah fight in 2006.

1. Victoriano Sosa (solid fighter, but lost to Spadafora)
2. Phillip N'Dou (hard puncher, but never beat anyone of note)
3. DeMarcus Corley (good fighter)
4. Henry Bruseles (no threat)
5. Arturo Gatti (not truly elite....look at his losses)
6. Sharmba Mitchell (shot fighter)

Which one of those opponents was truly dangerous to him as the elite I've mentioned at 147? None. Moreover, there were dangerous opponents for him at 140, but the fights never materialized.

All in all, I think Floyd Mayweather is right near the top on the list of the greatest 130 fighters in boxing history, but his legacy as an all-time great in any of the divisions thereafter deserves scrutiny. By the age of 30, Oscar's resume is actually superior to that of Mayweather, and he is not considered an all-time great fighter, and doesn't occupy the list of the top 5 or even top 10 pfp fighters in a lot of the divisions he competed in.

A lot of this talk about all-time status, especially coming from Floyd's uncle Roger, is really hype. He's a helluva fighter, but we really need to look at his propensity not to face the best in the last several years. I think he has a special skill set, but we need to see unification against tougher opponents to put him up high with the great fighters of the past.

Some additional evidence.

When Duran vacated 135 in 1978, a lot of people forget that his official, written, public challenge in the newspapers was to ALL CHAMPIONS UP TO 160 POUNDS. Win, lose, or draw, Leonard, Duran, Hearns, Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles (who was a heckuva lightweight), Carmen Basilio, Bob Fitzsimmons, Henry Armstrong, Sugar Ray Robinson, De La Hoya, Mosley, Trinidad unifying with DLH, and later going after Hopkins, Hopkins going after Tarver while coming off losses, Michael Spinks making history against Larry Holmes, Billy Conn almost beating Joe Louis, Harry Greb being ducked by Dempsey's management after outdueling him in sparring (while beating a host of world champions in higher weight classes than him...sometimes in the same year), Mickey Walker unconscionably going after Schmeling and Sharkey after vacating the middleweight title---and so many more in boxing history---.....always looked for the absolute best opponents they could face in their divisions.

Mayweather hasn't done the same.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but there is no doubt that PBF is an all time great and has beaten the top fighters in every division he has been in. The only division he did not fight the very best was Light Welterweight basically because Tyzu was unavailable and injured. When Hatton beat Tyzu he refused to unify with PBF after PBF destroyed the WBC champion Gatti. Amongst the champions and fighters he has beat are undefeated champions at the time and or at their peak Corrales, Castillo, Chavez, Manfredy, Baldomir etc.

[zivic1941]

Mayweather is a terrific fighter, but almost any modern day fighter is going to come up short in the thickness of resume department compared to fighters in the past like Robinson and Armstrong who fought so much more often.

What I would like to do is compare Mayweather to the other top fighters in recent years, among this era. Mayweather's opposition level, while solid, could've been better in the last few years. He's got to do more before establishing himself as the best of this era, rather than being one of the top ones. The p4p thing, not beating too many top 10 guys, well, I don't really hold that against him. Going by The Ring's top 10 p4p lists, DLH only beat one top 10 p4p guy, and that was a controversial decision over Whitaker. Tito only beat one, and that was controversial (Oscar). Mayweather has beaten one and maybe will have two on Saturday. As for Hatton moving up, well, Hatton did more are 147 (winning close decision over top 5 WW after moving up on short notice) than guys like say, Nelson @ 135 or Chavez @ 147. Sure, Hatton isn't an ATG like those two, but he also will likely enter the ring on Saturday as the heavier man, which I doubt Nelson and Chavez were over Whitaker. Oscar made a whole habit out of having guys move up to face him...this is Floyd's 2nd time doing so.
Some of this is very good and accurate.

However:

1) DLH fought several Top 10 PFP guys when he faced them. Hopkins, Trinidad, Mosley 1. More importantly, in the last several years, we've had a lot of Top 10 PFP guys facing each other (Pac, Marquez, Wright vs. Taylor, Wright vs. Hopkins, etc.).

What we need, as stated in another post, and in line with some of your post, is full fledged unification. Calzaghe and Kessler did it....other examples as well. Or, ignoring the alphabets, and just shooting for the best guy.

This fight tonight is not bad. It's a very interesting match-up. What I'd like to see, however, to solidify a claim to be mentioned along with greats of the past, is full unification of the division, and precipitated by a challenge from Mayweather without pricing himself out.

[zivic1941]

1. So What? Mayweather put a chalenge down when he was at 135 'anyone up to 147' and he moved to 154 to egt delahoya.

2. Yes and Mayweather peaked at 130, hes now at 147 - thats like Duran at 154. Mayweather is far more dominant at 147 than Duran was at 154. Remember Duran got whooped by Hearns, Benitez and Laing at 154

3. Leonard fought the best but he missed many of the elite top fighters and avoided the Hearns rematch, Pryor and so on......

4. Overall SRR and Armstrong ducked the black dynamite crew. How many top10 P4P fighters did SRR and Armstrong face off with? Well they didn't fight Charles, Burley, Moore etc etc

5. Who says Delahoya was further past his prime against PBF than Whitaker was against Delahoya? Delahoya had 1 of his best career performances 10 months earlier so thats not the best argument. If you're going to take Sturn away from Delahoya do you give him Mosley 2?

6. NO NO NO Delahoya fought Carr instead of Quartey. Quartey easily won 9 rounds against Delahoya EASILY. Remember when Mayweather had a similar time when he had a close fight with Castillo? Did he duck Castillo or rematch him?

7. Yes and against the best Trinidad got whooped. Who did Trinidad ever beat who was P4P excluding the Delahoya gift?

8. Mosley has excellent comp but hes lost 5 times since 2002.

I don't hold this career management against these fighters that much but the double standards and rose tinted glasses need to be shown up for what they are
1) Your first point is a distortion. When Duran made his challenge, it was to all of the unified champs, all of which were in their primes. You never heard a sportswriter criticize Duran for going after those guys, because they were pure champs.

What Mayweather has done in the past is put exorbinant price tags on himself, which makes it hard for the other guy to make money against him. Why did Tszyu go to Britain? Obviously, more money because of how Mayweather negotiates.

As we know, there isn't clarity or purity at 147. What is best for the division isn't a win over Baldomir. I certainly hope you wouldn't compare Mayweather's challenge of Baldomir to Duran's challenge of Leonard. After all, Forrest, past his prime and injury prone over the last several years, was more impressive against Baldomir than Mayweather was at 147.

UNIFICATION---as stated previously---is the way to go. Don't get a trinket, and move on, and then start comparing yourself to Armstrong, Ali, and Robinson. If other divisions shoot for unification as we've been seeing, and Williams and Cintron were trying to unify a % in their division, why not Mayweather? Shoot, Archie Moore had wanted posters published all over the country challenging Marciano. Mayweather is not a guy who pushes the envelope like that. He's a risk assessment guy.

2) Addressed pretty much in the previous post. Don't compare Leonard, Hearns, Benitez, and Hagler to the comp. Mayweather has faced at 147 and 154. Duran had fought almost 70 professional fights when he moved up, and beat Leonard in the first fight in one of the great welterweight title fights in history. You're talking about automatic HOF guys in their primes with who Duran went after, and his fights with Hearns, Benitez, and Hagler were fought when Duran was several years past his prime, and his HOF opponents were in their primes.

Remember as well, Duran actually started his career as a bantamweight to super bantamweight. Armstrong started low as well, won his first title at 126 and held 126, 135, and 147 simultaneously. He drew with Garcia for the middleweight crown. Much of Armstrong's defenses at 147 were fought well under that limit. 140 was actually kind of pushing it when he defended his 147 pound crown. He sometimes even weighed below the lightweight limit when he defended at 147.....and he made a helluva lot of defenses there.

3) I don't like to repeat this, but as addressed in a previous post, Leonard did not avoid Pryor as a pro. He was fighting higher level pound-for-pound game in 1980 and 1981. The detached retina issue came up in 1982, when Leonard was aiming for a prime Hagler. It is believed by many that Leonard got the detached retina in the Hearns fight. Hearns, in the meantime, actually fought as a middleweight in his next fight, and settled in at jr. middleweight thereafter for quite a while. Pryor's claim would be legitimate if he did what Duran and Benitez did, vacate (135 & 140),establish yourself as a contender at 147, and earn the title shot.

4) Look at the amount of Hall of Fame fighters they faced in those fighters' primes. Look at the IBHOF list......It's almost countless. I hope you wouldn't compare Baldomir to Kid Gavilan. So many more examples it would be hard to list. Mayweather hasn't faced a HOF fighter in that fighter's prime in his career. Hatton might be the closest thing to it because he beat Tszyu, and is generally considered the top guy at 140. Let's remember, Castillo was a good fighter at 135, but he was JC Chavez's sparring partner, and not mentioned among the top elite Mexican fighters in history.

5) Your point is a distortion. DLH's "performance" was against Mayorga, who had been bludgeoned so badly by Trinidad that he considered retirement. De La Hoya peaked as a welterweight in the late 1990s. Whitaker was not in his prime for sure when they met, but he still had superb reflexes and timing when he fought Oscar, he was still essentially an undefeated fighter, while Oscar was a few years before his prime when they met. Oscar probably peaked around 1998-1999. I had him winning 8-4 in rounds over Tito, but as always, I was rooting against Oscar. The only time I ever rooted for Oscar was against Mayorga.

6) DLH fulfilled an oblgation to fight Carr, and didn't duck anyone. His next fight, listen closely, was unification against Trinidad. When Mayweather defeated Baldomir, who is a tough, but ordinary fighter, did he go after unification? No. He went to DLH, who can be deemed to be 3-3 in his previous 6 fights before the match. That's part of the problem in comparing Mayweather.....he claims he's one of the greatest fighters in history....Oscar is not vociferous along those lines.....and Oscar has a deeper resume....yet PBF puts himself with the greats like Robinson and Ali. Go figure.

7) The difference with Trinidad is that when he lost, he lost to legitimate HOF opponents in their primes. Hopkins---who he was favored to beat---and Winky Wright.

8) Unquestionbably. Mosley has put himself on the line a lot more than Mayweather has. Winky Wright and Vernon Forrest were multi-talented fighters with distinct physical advantages, and in their primes. Mosley had lost to Forrest in the amateurs, and it was well known that Forrest felt he had Mosley's stylistic number, and became the Fighter of the Year for that year. When Mosley lost to Cotto, it was close, and when Mosley was far, far past his prime.

[zivic1941]

1. Which P4P fighter did you want him to face since 2002?????? Tyszu - unavailable. Hatton - turned him down. Cotto-turned him down and only recently P4P. Spinks - lost, Judah - lost and beat him There was no P4P fighters from 140-147 other than Floyd and Hatton and Hatton kept turning him down

1a) How many P4P fighters did SRR and Armstrong face?

1b) We can agree Burley was a legend.

3) If you were PBF in 2005 and Hatton and Cotto had turned you down at 140 and you had the P4P Judah at 147, isnt P4P Judah the best fight to make? Its not Mayweathers fault Judah underestimated Baldomir and lost.

I think your being unfair underestimating the Judah win. Judah showed his best against Mayweather and did pretty well early on.

4) I think your looking at 2002-2005 too much when there were no big fights to make. 2006 and 2007 have been excellent comp Judah, Baldomir, Delahoya, Hatton. 4 Linear Champs back to back.

5) Well yes but Hatton-Mayweather is historical because they were 1 and 2 at 140lbs. Hatton is bigger than Mayweather, its testiment that to Mayweather he has beaten the top 147 and 154lbers while essentially been smaller than many lightweights.

I actually think a well prepared Hatton is a serious danger to Floyd. Then again as a PBF fan I was worried about the problems Mitchell, Judah and DLH would present. (No I wasn't worried about Baldomir stylistically but Baldomir is very underrated)

6. Hatton's father stated they had turned down Mayweathers talks of the fights 5 times from 2004-2006. Mayweather wanted his first fight at 140 to be Hatton instead of Corley, he wanted Hatton in November 2005 instead of Mitchell, he wanted Hatton to fill in for Judah when Judah lost in 2006.

It wouldnt have been a big fight back in 2004 but it may have happened.

This is public knowledge I don't need to show press releases but start a thread on the general forum asking about it and you'll get the info.

Arrum himself said Cotto wasn't ready for PBF at 140 - again this is public knowledge. I'm nto going diggin for the articles but its there if you want to find it

Much of this has been addressed in a previous post.

If a fighter is going to call themselves one of the all-time greats, price yourself in such a way to make the fights happen. In 2002, if fights can't be made, and you think you're an all-time great, go for Forrest and Mosley at 147....just as previous lightweights in the past have done.

Let's remember something substantive as well: Kostya Tszyu aggressively sought unification when he was a champion, and he knocked Zab Judah goofi. He also spent a helluva lot of time injured during the time frame you mentioned as well, causing The Ring to vote him as Comeback Fighter of the Year in 2004.

I do need evidence of press releases, or exact quotes and their sources. With Floyd, much of the press has been very critical of him for the reasons stated. He is not considered a "ducked" fighter. None have been critical of the other fighters nearly as much as Floyd. Floyd, as Emanuel Steward has stated, is a "very good" fighter, but Floyd's grandiose claims just don't stack up well if you look at the overall level of opposition compared to those he mentions himself along with.

[PowerPuncher]

2. In my opinion, split fights with Castillo at lightweight, with a few other defenses. .

Have you got a round by round scorecard for Mayweather-Castillo 1 or are you going along with the myth?

[rekcutnevets]

I get the feeling that some would feel better about Mayweather's legacy if would have won a bullshit belt at 130; fought one legitimate lightweight, and then faced a few good 130 lbers while still at 135; score a couple of solid wins at 140; moved to 147 and questionably win a title, then refuse to give any title shots to anyone you quesionably beat and instead fight people that have already lost to people you've previously faced, unjustly lose the biggest fight of your career, lose to a lightweight; then score a couple of solid wins at 154 before losing to a former 147 rival; cheat a bullshit titlist out of a title at middleweight, then lose to the real champ; drop back to 154 and call out a "bully" that you should be able to handle with no problem then lose to a smaller fighter you call out.

Floyd's resume is better at Jr. lightweight than de la Hoya's, about even at lightweight(win over Castillo) since Oscar waited until moving to lightweight before facing all the good 130 pounders, worse at 140 with wins over Corley and Gatti as opposed to Chavez and Gonzalez, have to say better at 154 since he beat Oscar there, and currently behind at 147. Oscar's "loss" to Trinidad has proved more than Floyd has currently done there. If Floyd beats Hatton and Cotto you could easily argue Pretty Boy has a better resume than the Golden Boy.

[zivic1941]

Have you got a round by round scorecard for Mayweather-Castillo 1 or are you going along with the myth?
When I watched the first fight, I scored it 115-113 (7-5) based on effective aggression and the harder, better punches landed.

In the second fight, I scored it 116-112 for Mayweather.

However, let's remember that Castillo is not considered one of the elite Mexican fighters in boxing history. He was Julio Cesar Chavez's sparring partner.

Besides all of the other posts I've put up related to the topic of Mayweather, I think the best thing Mayweather can do right now to solidify his claims is to totally dominate Hatton and cleanly stop him within 6 rounds, and move towards unification, as Williams & Cintron were setting the tone for.

I hope that you all noticed that I did not include Duran's win over Barkley in the previous analyses. Sure, Barkley won it from Hearns, but if you trace the lineage, it's not as pure as one would like in terms of the opponent, and the history of that division from the time Leonard beat Hagler, and Hearns winning the splintered version from Roldan.

I hope it was also noticed how I didn't throw in Leonard's 1988 super middleweight/light heavyweight "title" win over Donny LaLaonde as well. He had other, and more substantive game, to go after instead of the political maneuvering he pulled in setting stipulations for the fight.

Several months before Leonard - LaLonde, I sat next to Julian Jackson during the Starling - Breland 2 & Chavez-Aguilar card earlier that year. Leonard came by and made some mock aggressive gestures towards Jackson. Jackson was polite, and didn't take a bit of it seriously. He knew Leonard wasn't going to give that a go, not to mention anything with McCallum or Nunn. Sugar Ray's major accomplisments started in the 1970s, and ended with Hagler. That's his true legacy....and a stunning one at at that.

[rekcutnevets]

I really don't care about unifications as much as I used to. Especially since I think some of the top fighter don't have titles, i.e. the recently defeated Shane Mosley. I would still regard Mosley a more significant fight than Cintron. I would even buy Margarito over Cintron, and Williams definately deserves a shot since he defeated Margarito.

I say Williams deserves a shot, because I only count one fighter per division as champ, and everyone else is a contender.

Mayweather proved he is champ by defeating Judah and Baldomir. He can erase all doubts by defeating Cotto and Williams.

That is, if he beats Hatton.

My money says the Williams fight never happens, and the Cotto fight will if De la Hoya doesn't get him first.

[zivic1941]

I really don't care about unifications as much as I used to. Especially since I think some of the top fighter don't have titles, i.e. the recently defeated Shane Mosley. I would still regard Mosley a more significant fight than Cintron. I would even buy Margarito over Cintron, and Williams definately deserves a shot since he defeated Margarito.

I say Williams deserves a shot, because I only count one fighter per division as champ, and everyone else is a contender.

Mayweather proved he is champ by defeating Judah and Baldomir. He can erase all doubts by defeating Cotto and Williams.

That is, if he beats Hatton.

My money says the Williams fight never happens, and the Cotto fight will if De la Hoya doesn't get him first.

You make a good and fair point on Cintron. He's been knocked out by Margarito, and Margarito - Williams was a good fight.

One can throw Margarito in the mix against Cotto---that fight can happen---and put Mayweather in with Williams. Then go from there.

Remember, the point(s) of contention I have with Floyd Mayweather are specifically related to his claims---and the claims of his uncle Roger---that he is among the best, if not the best, fighter of all-time. I, along with others, need to see quite a bit more for that claim to be solidified. At the moment, he is among the best fighters of this era (last 10 years or so), but falls short as one of the all-time best for reasons previously stated. I like his work ethic, his fundamental skill set, his speed, and his mental toughness (I've never seen him freeze in the ring).

[JohnThomas1]

Mayweathers stock just went up considerably. It'll be rather hard for anyone not to give him some serious due now.

[Vanboxingfan]

Yes indeed. I certainly think he's an ATG but I wouldn't put him up there with Duran or anything along those lines, but he's just a below these type of A+ fighters. A convincing win over Cotto, or Williams (I would consider a victory unlikely), would certainly put him right at the top.

[zivic1941]

Yes indeed. I certainly think he's an ATG but I wouldn't put him up there with Duran or anything along those lines, but he's just a below these type of A+ fighters. A convincing win over Cotto, or Williams (I would consider a victory unlikely), would certainly put him right at the top.
I think that's a good assessment. It's good to use the word "great" infrequently. I don't think Floyd is yet a "great" fighter, whereas Duran, Armstrong, Robinson, both Leonards, Ali, etc. were. If he can unify what is probably the toughest division in boxing right now at welterweight, we really need to bow our heads to him and start thinking about putting him up there.

My pick in a welterweight unification tournament, however, would be Paul Williams.

[Thread Stealer]

7-5 fight for Oscar, and put completely over the top with the last round knockdown and near stoppage.

What 7 rounds did Oscar win? If you're generous to Oscar, you have it 3-2 after 5 for DLH. DLH lost round 6 when both guys went down, as Ike clearly did the better work after the 2 KDs. DLH did practically nothing from rounds 7 to 9. He stood there, way too tenative, as he would later admit that he was cautious because of Ike's punching power. Oscar has to win the last 3 rounds to win the fight, which is giving him the benefit of the doubt (I gave him 10 and 12, making it 114-113 Ike).

[TBooze]

It best to evaluate a fighter at least 10 years after he has retired; not 10 minutes after his finest win.

Mayweather is good, damn good, but so was Don Curry after the McCrory fight and Gato Gonzales was a cannot miss superstar, ditto Hector Camacho...

I think Mayweather is a lot better than the examples given, but it is best to wait; hindsight should be your friend.

[zivic1941]

Floyd clearly stepped up his game in this fight compared to his wins over DLH, Baldomir, and Judah. Unquestionably, for polls that had Pacquiao as the #1 PFP fighter in the sport, that must be changed now. Floyd is the best fighter in the world.

I picked Floyd by clear UD or late stoppage (on cuts). On paper, he did close to what was expected. The conventional wisdom, which is often wrong in boxing, was correct here. What Floyd did, in my book at least, is exceed my expectations. His close out between the 8th and 10th rounds was brilliant stuff.

Although it is indeed very wise to wait and allow a fighter's legacy to soak in over time, his career does appear to be close to over, and we know how good his opposition has been thus far. Floyd, in my opinion, is on the cusp. Successful unification would put him over the top, and get him in with the top 15-20 fighters in boxing history.

Floyd is divisive for various reasons, nonetheless, and that causes issues for some in coming to crystal clear judgment.


Floyd Mayweather has a Jack Johnson mentality, and a Jack Johnson level of ring intelligence. Very smart, very subtle, and extremely tough mentally. He actually did some subtle things toying with Hatton last night, just as Johnson toyed with a lot of his opponents while not looking invulnerable in the process.

Floyd is the best fighter in the world, as Johnson was. He has also been guilty of defiantly hand picking some opponents in his career, too. In kind, he will probably continue to thumb his nose at critics, thumb his nose as he runs red lights at high speed in a car more expensive than a % of American real estate, just as the jazz thumper and Mann Act target did almost 100 years ago. As stated in another thread, imagine if Johnson was born in 1978 instead of 1878? Let's face it, he'd be a worse villain than Mayweather. The example was given in that same thread.....as the ultra-lucid Archie Moore said about Johnson, “The man was a disaster to anyone who came near him. American blacks are still paying for him." Mayweather can be bad, but he's not that bad.

GBP should send him a bonus for last night, and you can expect that they'll be inclined to take it step farther than that. Too bad that they're not of the ilk of Tex Rickard.

I've been informed by an experienced and astute source that a tournament will be tough to make because Harvard alum and music industry mover and shaker, Al Haymon, manages both Mayweather and Williams.

Nonetheless................ as a rejoinder.......

If a Harvard alum, Bob Arum, can speak of putting his two guys, Margarito and Cotto, in against one another, then the other Harvard alum, Haymon. should be reminded that Mayweather and Williams can be put in with one another as well. They should both be reminded that another Harvard alum, Lou DiBella, was the catalyst in the 2001 tournament, and his 36-year-old fighter at the time, Bernard Hopkins, became much, much wealthier thereafter, while improving the sport in the process. We know that Hopkins has experienced what some may deem as lead paint brain freezes since then, but still, these types of tournaments, pitting the best against the best while jettisoning alphabet malaise, is what drives the sport to a higher level in myriad ways.

Heck, I think Mayweather deserves Oscar De La Hoya money for it. If you look at the 2004 middleweight round robin, I believe Oscar made over $30 million. He reportedly made more for losing to Mayweather this year.

Food for thought.

See you folks in late January/Early February. 2008 is looking good, and as mentioned above, it can become great with some solid, well thought out tweaks from the power brokers in the sport.

[zivic1941]

What 7 rounds did Oscar win? If you're generous to Oscar, you have it 3-2 after 5 for DLH. DLH lost round 6 when both guys went down, as Ike clearly did the better work after the 2 KDs. DLH did practically nothing from rounds 7 to 9. He stood there, way too tenative, as he would later admit that he was cautious because of Ike's punching power. Oscar has to win the last 3 rounds to win the fight, which is giving him the benefit of the doubt (I gave him 10 and 12, making it 114-113 Ike).

We'll agree to disagree. When I watched that fight, I had it even going into the 12th round, and Oscar then pulled it out with the knockdown and near stoppage.

[rekcutnevets]

I Mayweather is too fast for the light hitting Williams. It is an interesing match though.

Willams size, and high output make for a tall order.

[JohnThomas1]

It best to evaluate a fighter at least 10 years after he has retired; not 10 minutes after his finest win.

Mayweather is good, damn good, but so was Don Curry after the McCrory fight and Gato Gonzales was a cannot miss superstar, ditto Hector Camacho...

I think Mayweather is a lot better than the examples given, but it is best to wait; hindsight should be your friend.

Mayweather has come a helluva lot deeper than those three ever dreamed. You're right in that things will settle later tho.

[Thread Stealer]

Floyd clearly stepped up his game in this fight compared to his wins over DLH, Baldomir, and Judah. Unquestionably, for polls that had Pacquiao as the #1 PFP fighter in the sport, that must be changed now. Floyd is the best fighter in the world.

I picked Floyd by clear UD or late stoppage (on cuts). On paper, he did close to what was expected. The conventional wisdom, which is often wrong in boxing, was correct here. What Floyd did, in my book at least, is exceed my expectations. His close out between the 8th and 10th rounds was brilliant stuff.

Although it is indeed very wise to wait and allow a fighter's legacy to soak in over time, his career does appear to be close to over, and we know how good his opposition has been thus far. Floyd, in my opinion, is on the cusp. Successful unification would put him over the top, and get him in with the top 15-20 fighters in boxing history.

Floyd is divisive for various reasons, nonetheless, and that causes issues for some in coming to crystal clear judgment.


Floyd Mayweather has a Jack Johnson mentality, and a Jack Johnson level of ring intelligence. Very smart, very subtle, and extremely tough mentally. He actually did some subtle things toying with Hatton last night, just as Johnson toyed with a lot of his opponents while not looking invulnerable in the process.

Floyd is the best fighter in the world, as Johnson was. He has also been guilty of defiantly hand picking some opponents in his career, too. In kind, he will probably continue to thumb his nose at critics, thumb his nose as he runs red lights at high speed in a car more expensive than a % of American real estate, just as the jazz thumper and Mann Act target did almost 100 years ago. As stated in another thread, imagine if Johnson was born in 1978 instead of 1878? Let's face it, he'd be a worse villain than Mayweather. The example was given in that same thread.....as the ultra-lucid Archie Moore said about Johnson, “The man was a disaster to anyone who came near him. American blacks are still paying for him." Mayweather can be bad, but he's not that bad.

GBP should send him a bonus for last night, and you can expect that they'll be inclined to take it step farther than that. Too bad that they're not of the ilk of Tex Rickard.

I've been informed by an experienced and astute source that a tournament will be tough to make because Harvard alum and music industry mover and shaker, Al Haymon, manages both Mayweather and Williams.

Nonetheless................ as a rejoinder.......

If a Harvard alum, Bob Arum, can speak of putting his two guys, Margarito and Cotto, in against one another, then the other Harvard alum, Haymon. should be reminded that Mayweather and Williams can be put in with one another as well. They should both be reminded that another Harvard alum, Lou DiBella, was the catalyst in the 2001 tournament, and his 36-year-old fighter at the time, Bernard Hopkins, became much, much wealthier thereafter, while improving the sport in the process. We know that Hopkins has experienced what some may deem as lead paint brain freezes since then, but still, these types of tournaments, pitting the best against the best while jettisoning alphabet malaise, is what drives the sport to a higher level in myriad ways.

Heck, I think Mayweather deserves Oscar De La Hoya money for it. If you look at the 2004 middleweight round robin, I believe Oscar made over $30 million. He reportedly made more for losing to Mayweather this year.

Food for thought.

See you folks in late January/Early February. 2008 is looking good, and as mentioned above, it can become great with some solid, well thought out tweaks from the power brokers in the sport.

Good post, as usual.

[PowerPuncher]

1. As we know, there isn't clarity or purity at 147. What is best for the division isn't a win over Baldomir. I certainly hope you wouldn't compare Mayweather's challenge of Baldomir to Duran's challenge of Leonard. After all, Forrest, past his prime and injury prone over the last several years, was more impressive against Baldomir than Mayweather was at 147.

UNIFICATION---as stated previously---is the way to go. Don't get a trinket, and move on, and then start comparing yourself to Armstrong, Ali, and Robinson. If other divisions shoot for unification as we've been seeing, and Williams and Cintron were trying to unify a % in their division, why not Mayweather? Shoot, Archie Moore had wanted posters published all over the country challenging Marciano. Mayweather is not a guy who pushes the envelope like that. He's a risk assessment guy.

3. You're talking about automatic HOF guys in their primes with who Duran went after, and his fights with Hearns, Benitez, and Hagler were fought when Duran was several years past his prime, and his HOF opponents were in their primes.

4. Remember as well, Duran actually started his career as a bantamweight to super bantamweight. Armstrong started low as well, won his first title at 126 and held 126, 135, and 147 simultaneously.

5. He drew with Garcia for the middleweight crown. Much of Armstrong's defenses at 147 were fought well under that limit. 140 was actually kind of pushing it when he defended his 147 pound crown.

6. He sometimes even weighed below the lightweight limit when he defended at 147.....and he made a helluva lot of defenses there.

7) I don't like to repeat this, but as addressed in a previous post, Leonard did not avoid Pryor as a pro. He was fighting higher level pound-for-pound game in 1980 and 1981.

8) Look at the amount of Hall of Fame fighters they faced in those fighters' primes. Look at the IBHOF list......It's almost countless.

9. I hope you wouldn't compare Baldomir to Kid Gavilan. So many more examples it would be hard to list.

10. Mayweather hasn't faced a HOF fighter in that fighter's prime in his career.

11. Hatton might be the closest thing to it because he beat Tszyu, and is generally considered the top guy at 140.

12. Let's remember, Castillo was a good fighter at 135, but he was JC Chavez's sparring partner, and not mentioned among the top elite Mexican fighters in history.

13. Your point is a distortion. DLH's "performance" was against Mayorga, who had been bludgeoned so badly by Trinidad that he considered retirement. De La Hoya peaked as a welterweight in the late 1990s.

14. His next fight, listen closely, was unification against Trinidad. When Mayweather defeated Baldomir, who is a tough, but ordinary fighter, did he go after unification?

15. No. He went to DLH, who can be deemed to be 3-3 in his previous 6 fights before the match. That's part of the problem in comparing Mayweather.....he claims he's one of the greatest fighters in history....Oscar is not vociferous along those lines.....and Oscar has a deeper resume....yet PBF puts himself with the greats like Robinson and Ali. Go figure.

16) The difference with Trinidad is that when he lost, he lost to legitimate HOF opponents in their primes. Hopkins---who he was favored to beat---and Winky Wright.

178) Unquestionbably. Mosley has put himself on the line a lot more than Mayweather has. Winky Wright and Vernon Forrest were multi-talented fighters with distinct physical advantages, and in their primes. Mosley had lost to Forrest in the amateurs, and it was well known that Forrest felt he had Mosley's stylistic number, and became the Fighter of the Year for that year. When Mosley lost to Cotto, it was close, and when Mosley was far, far past his prime.

1. Mayweather has unified ALL belts at 147 in 1 way or another and is the ONLY CHAMP at 147. Look: Baldomir (WBC/WBA/IBF), Judah (IBF), Hatton (WBA).

Your neglecting the Baldomir win, YES he wasnt a great fighter but he had the following lineage: Baldomir-Judah-Spinks-Mayorga-Forrest-Mosley-Delahoya - ignoring that lineage is stuipid

Cotto, Cintron and Williams are paper champs nothing more, if you don;t know that you haven't been paying attention. The Cotto fight MAY happen in the future if the moneys right. Cottos make a case for himself in the last year but before that it was C Class all the way.

2. FLOYD IS THE ONLY CHAMP AT 147. He has lineal rights to the WBC/WBA/IBF. Cotto/Cinton are paper belt holders and are not champs at all.

3. I don't remember Kirkland Laing being in the Hall of Fame. Mayweathers beat plenty of HOF fighters - Delahoya, Castillo, Hatton, Corrales

4. Yes and Mayweathers fought champions across as much weight range than either Armstrong/Duran. Lets not forget Armstrong won the Welter title off a lightweight and didnt fight Burley

5. ARMSTRONG DID NOT FIGHT FOR THE TRUE MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE AND HE WAS FACING A WELTER IN THAT FIGHT

6. SO WHAT, Mayweather has been outweighed by 15-20lbs on many occasions on fight night. Most of Armstrong defenses were against journeymen that made Bailey look like SRR

7. Pryor called Leonard out, Leonard didnt want the fight

8. In 20 years many of Mayweathers opponents will be HOF bound.

9. No Baldomir isnt as good as Galivan but Delahoya is as good and 2 weight classes bigger on fight night. Corrales/Castillo/Hatton/Judah are around the level of Galivan or just below.

10. Mayweather hasnt faced a Prime HOF fighter? Try Hatton/Castillo/Corrales - locks for HOF in their primes.

11. Yes Hatton beat Tyszu and Castillo

12. So what if Castillo was Chavez's sparing partner. Holmes was Alis sparing partner, does that make him poor? Castillo was ELITE at 135 not just good. He was also around 15lbs heavier than Mayweather

12. Oscar probably was at his physical peak in the late 90s but he was still in his peak in 2002, although in 2007 was a much stronger and bigger opponent, he probably hit his technical peak around 2003.

Oscar was only 34 in 2007 and had the best nutritionists/trainers and training camp money can buy. He was in excellent condition. PRIME? No, but not too many removed from it. PLUS HE PROBABLY WEIGHED 15-20lbs more on fight night

13. Mayorga was 2years removed from being Welter no1

14. YOUR MAKING YOURSELF LOOK STUPID TALKING ABOUT UNIFICATION. THE ONLY CHAMP AT 147 IS MAYWEATHER. EVERYONE ELSE ARE PAPER BELT HOLDERS. Cotto has the belt stripped from Hatton that was stripped from Baldomir. Cintron has the IBF that was stripped from Mayweather.

15. Oscar was a 154lber fighting Top3 middles. Thats why he has losses, if he was fighting 154lbers he wouldnt have losses. Lets not pretend Oscar is shot because he loses to BHOPs because no version of Oscar beats BHOPs. Oscar was fresh off beating a 2 weight champ in Mayorga. He was arguably robbed against Mosley in the second fight before he was arguably robebd he was consider no1 at 154.

16. Trinidad isnt a great fighter and never beat a prime great.

17. Corrales/Castillo/Hatton are P4P on the level of Forrest/Winky. The difference is Mayweather beat them.