Reverse a loss: Tyson

[ironchamp]

Of all of Tyson's losses which one loss, if reversed would have given him the biggest boost in terms of his rankings.

[Lacyace]

Lennox Lewis by far.

[Dempsey1238]

Perhaps Kevin McBrain. That was just awful lol. A shot Tyson should have won that one. For his big fights. Douglas or one of the Holyfiled fights. But this is changing history. And Tyson is ranked outside of the top ten imo because of his fall. Rember Tyson is the Youngest guy to lose his title at 24.

[Thread Stealer]

Either Lennox Lewis, or the Evander Holyfield rematch.

[Eric_Suede]

Lennox Lewis by far. That would've been a Major triumphant comeback moment for him that would've defined his career. Much like Ali vs. Foreman.

[Thread Stealer]

I would nominate his loss in an Indiana court room.

[ironchamp]

I would nominate his loss in an Indiana court room.

I should have included that.

[SgrRyLeonard]

Either the Holyfield rematch or the Lewis fight.

[ChrisPontius]

Some people say "Tyson lost his biggest matches" and while there's some truth in it, it is a bit misleading. Douglas only became a big fight because he lost to him. If he had beaten Douglas then that fight would have had as much significance as the Carl Williams or Tony Tubbs fight have.

The same to a certain degree goes for the Holyfield fight; Holyfield came into it seen as past his best, old, got off a stoppage loss to Bowe, a loss to Moorer and did not impress against Czyz. If he had been knocked out in 5, the fight would've been better than a Bruno blowout but still no legacy maker.

For the Lewis fight however, Tyson himself was old while Lewis had just delivered one of his finest knockouts against Rahman. On top of that, Lewis was the more accomplished fighter at that point than Holyfield was when Tyson fought him.

If he could reverse te result in the Holyfield rematch it would've been very good too though.

[ironchamp]

Thoughts on why people are picking Douglas?

[JohnBKelly]

Douglas - no question. All the other fights were redemption chances Dougles destroyed Tyson's shot at the top. If he had survived Douglas, he could have lasted another 2 or 3 years as champ and been remembered universally as possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time. Instead he lost and his career and life went down the crapper.

[hopkinsfan07]

obviously Douglas...

why he was going down hill in the fights before Douglas anyway and i dont think it would of made much differents


im going for Holyfield 2 it would of showed he was better (im not saying he is) and the whole ear eating thing wouldent have happend

[garymcfall]

I voted for lennox lewis

if tyson could have beaten him it would have carried more weight than a holyfield victory because in my opinion lewis was established as an all time great already, while holyfield is looked on as an all time great due mostly to the tyson win (ie he probably wouldnt be on most peoples top 10's had he not beaten tyson). it would have been a legendary comeback and secured his legacy.

[getup]

i picked douglas because holy was next up and after real deal whipped his ass we wouldnt have these tyson fans saying yeah but in 96 mike was past it!

[McGrain]

McBride. That made me sick.

There's no shame in losing to fighters like Lewis and Hollyfield.

[Thread Stealer]

i picked douglas because holy was next up and after real deal whipped his ass we wouldnt have these tyson fans saying yeah but in 96 mike was past it!

Tyson WAS past his prime in 1996.

But Holyfield wasn't exactly prime either, and was viewed as shot before he beat Tyson.

[NickHudson]

Interesting question. I guess a win over Lewis would have been the the biggest upset and the most spectacular, certainly in terms of redemption.

As I had considered him on the slide since 1990 it would have been in effect a 11 or 12 year comeback. Not quite Foremanesque or Duran-like, but not far off.

If he had KOd Douglas, hmmm that would have been fascinating and a good topic for a new thread. How would we all re-write HW history?

Who would have dethroned him? Would Holy have avoided getting mashed by a quicker, more elusive and more confident Tyson than the broken post-prison '96 version he actually faced?

[Calroid]

Thoughts on why people are picking Douglas?



Because after that fight Tyson realised that he was mortal and stopped believing the hype about his own invincibility.

A man who truely believes that he can't lose is a tough man to beat.

[Dempsey1238]

Because Tyson was in his physical prime against Buster Douglas and got completely schooled. His Holyfield and Lewis losses are much kinder to his legacy because Tyson was past his best physically. But losing to Buster Douglas at the age of 23 is just a huge blot on his record. Plus, who knows how many wins Tyson could've racked up afterwards had that loss been reversed. Maybe Tyson takes training more seriously and reaches 50-0.

Winning or loseing to Douglas would have matter little. Tyson would have still gone to prison for 3 years, came back and lose to Holyfiled. Even if he did beat Douglas, I still think that happens.

[DamonD]

Douglas, no doubt in my mind.

That loss at just 23 hurts his career a lot more than the post-jail losses to Holyfield and Lewis.

[daredevil1989]

i actually think tyson NEEDED the douglas loss he had been on the slide since the spinks fight and it kinda made him pull his finger out as you can see from his two good performances against ruddock. the douglas loss kinda humanised him in a way

[Jack Dempsey]

Lewis then Douglas

[Marciano Frazier]

I say Douglas, as that fight is the central moment that ensures Tyson's non-appearance in my top 10. It's a crushing loss to a relatively undistinguished opponent while he was in his prime and healthy. If he had beaten Douglas, then losing to Holyfield later that year would have been no shame and Tyson's legacy wouldn't have suffered nearly so badly as it did against Douglas, and a win over Holyfield at that stage would have locked him into the top 10.

[janitor]

If he had beaten Douglas then he would only have lost to other all time greats except when he was in his late 30s.

[janitor]

not totally true. Had he won against Douglas he was slated to fight evnder right after. And i think he would have beaten evander back then.

Perhaps, but loosing the title to Holyfield would be a lot less damaging than loosing it to Douglas. Holyfield would have gone on to build up a body of work outside of the win over Tyson. Even if he hadnt his body of work at cruiserweight would have gone some way towards justifying the loss.

[MrSmall]

Holy 2.
Why?
Why, there would be a Holy 3 of course!

[ripcity]

It would have helped his career most if Tyson would have beaten Douglas. Je would have fought Holyfield next. I think he had a good chance of wining that fight back than.

[Marciano Frazier]

Perhaps, but loosing the title to Holyfield would be a lot less damaging than loosing it to Douglas. Holyfield would have gone on to build up a body of work outside of the win over Tyson. Even if he hadnt his body of work at cruiserweight would have gone some way towards justifying the loss.
Exactly. Let's assume that Tyson fights Holyfield in Douglas' place- if Holyfield wins and does everything else exactly the same as he did in real life, except that the late '90s Tyson fights don't happen, since they already fought in '91, then I imagine Holyfield's standing in the eyes of the fans would be noticeably enhanced by his having beaten a prime, undefeated Tyson, and Tyson's standing would also be enhanced, since he would have only lost the title to an all-time great and would have no losses other than to all-time greats, as you say, until his late 30s- and each man's risen stock would reciprocally raise the other man's more by association. Really, I think both men would have gained a lot historically if Tyson could've only kept his end of the bargain and beaten Douglas.

[janitor]

Exactly. Let's assume that Tyson fights Holyfield in Douglas' place- if Holyfield wins and does everything else exactly the same as he did in real life, except that the late '90s Tyson fights don't happen, since they already fought in '91, then I imagine Holyfield's standing in the eyes of the fans would be noticeably enhanced by his having beaten a prime, undefeated Tyson, and Tyson's standing would also be enhanced, since he would have only lost the title to an all-time great and would have no losses other than to all-time greats, as you say, until his late 30s- and each man's risen stock would reciprocally raise the other man's more by association. Really, I think both men would have gained a lot historically if Tyson could've only kept his end of the bargain and beaten Douglas.

Come to think of it the stock of the cruiserweight division as a whole would go up in this scenario. Sudenly anybody who gave Holyfield a good fight would have serious heavyweight credentials.

[Mendoza]

Of all of Tyson's losses which one loss, if reversed would have given him the biggest boost in terms of his rankings.

Holyfield in 1996.

[Sonny's jab]

Let's imagine that Tyson beat everyone he ever faced.

He'd be 56-0 and with two wins over Holy, a win over Douglas and Lewis, and easy wins over a couple of bums just before he retires. The only thing that interrupted his reign 1986-2004 was prison and layoffs where he got bored of boxing.

Where would he rank ? :lol:

[DamonD]

Surprised to see the Lewis choice get a few votes.

I can it from a certain point of view...if Mike was able to come back from the Holyfield losses, the ban and the 'boxing wilderness' to knock out the #1 guy and reign as champion again, that would've been a massive boost to his legacy and standing. Top Ten would've been signed & sealed, rather than debated.

But if he doesn't lose to Douglas, even if the rest of his career went exactly the same way, he can point back to being unbeaten in his best years from '86-'91 and therefore the REAL Mike Tyson beats both Holyfield and Lewis.

You get that argument anyway, but it would be much stronger without Douglas dominating him.

[Sonny's jab]

If Tyson had beaten Lewis it would have been viewed as a great result and a great upset but Lewis's stock would plummett. The same Lewis would have lost by KO two of his three last fights, and he'd be hardly rated at all today, and the few remaining fans he has would say he grew OLD overnight.
I'd still rate Holyfield above Tyson if Tyson had beaten Lewis.
In fact, as things stand, I have trouble believing Lewis should rate above Tyson, and I rate Holyfield above both. So, for me at least, Tyson beating Lewis would not have changed the order of those three.

[DamonD]

I'd still rate Holyfield above Tyson if Tyson had beaten Lewis.
In fact, as things stand, I have trouble believing Lewis should rate above Tyson, and I rate Holyfield above both. So, for me at least, Tyson beating Lewis would not have changed the order of those three.
Well, if that's the way you feel, then you at least have to appreciate that you're coming at it from a minority point of view.
Not many people rank both Holyfield AND Tyson above Lewis, usually it's either one or neither.

[Sonny's jab]

Well, if that's the way you feel, then you at least have to appreciate that you're coming at it from a minority point of view.
Not many people rank both Holyfield AND Tyson above Lewis, usually it's either one or neither.

Logically, if it can be either one of them (non-specified) then there's no reason why BOTH should cause a problem.

I know Lewis is VERY highly rated on the all-time heavyweight lists here on ESB forums, but I dont know whether that's representative of EVERYONE who has an opinion on all-time heavyweights.

[ironchamp]

If Tyson had beaten Lewis it would have been viewed as a great result and a great upset but Lewis's stock would plummett. The same Lewis would have lost by KO two of his three last fights, and he'd be hardly rated at all today, and the few remaining fans he has would say he grew OLD overnight.
I'd still rate Holyfield above Tyson if Tyson had beaten Lewis.
In fact, as things stand, I have trouble believing Lewis should rate above Tyson, and I rate Holyfield above both. So, for me at least, Tyson beating Lewis would not have changed the order of those three.

I agree to some extent because as soon as Lewis beat Tyson it solified his stature as a ATG even though Tyson was past it. It a symbolic win of sorts. But lets not forget that Lewis was indeed the favorite which in some ways implies that Tyson winning would have given him the lineal title 14 years after he first got it from Spinks. In addition he would have been the only fighter to have held a piece of the title in 3 separate decades a feat that would have been unprecedented which is why I leaned towards Lewis as the loss to reverse.

Holyfield II comes in second. Holyfield's first win over Tyson gave him credibility, Beating a credible fighter would have in effect boosted Tyson's stock as well as his wallet as a rubber match would have been warranted.

Douglas to me comes in a very close third though I'm most conflicted by this. If Tyson never lost to Douglas or rather if the fight was ruled a KO in round 8 (controversy or no controversy) I think this would have been a wake up call. His arrogance and complacency would have vanished. His aura of invincibility would have not taken as big a hit because the argument would have been made that even on his off nights he can put together a win.

Last is Holyfield I which would bear aboslutely no significance if Tyson won the fight decisively.

[mr. magoo]

I think eliminating Buster Douglas would have cleaned up his resume a bit. It seems as though everytime Tyson is compared to an all time great, this loss is mentioned, presumably because it came during his prime. Sure, it would have done him wonders to beat Holyfield and Lewis, but losing to them isn't nearly as damaging. Plus his later defeats to guys like Mcbride can easily be written off as being past prime, holding no great significance.

[mike464]

If Tyson had beaten Douglas and then gone to prison undefeated it'd be like Ali before his exile. People would look back and say "wow, he was unbeatable". I think not losing in his prime would give his legacy a big boost.

[mr. magoo]

If Tyson had beaten Douglas and then gone to prison undefeated it'd be like Ali before his exile. People would look back and say "wow, he was unbeatable". I think not losing in his prime would give his legacy a big boost.

Of course, he was already scheduled to fight a peak Holyfield 4 months later in that year. The outcome would have been interesting had Tyson gotten by Douglas.