Top Ten Middleweights

[hopkinsfan07]

whats your top ten Middleweights

[McGrain]

1 - Sugar Ray Robinson
2 - Harry Greb
3 - Carlos Monzon
4 - Charley Burley
5 - Bob Fitzimmons
6 - Bernard Hopkins
7 - Marvin Hagler
8 - Staley Ketchel
9 - Roy Jones Junior
10 Dick Tiger

[TBooze]

40 Paul Pender
39 Thomas Hearns
38 Rocky Graziano
37 Randy Turpin
36 Mike McCallum
35 Georges Carpentier
34 Les Darcy
33 Al McCoy
32 Fred Apostolio
31 Sambu Kalambay
30 Tiger Flowers
29 Gene Fullmer
28 Rodrigo Valdez
27 Dick Tiger
26 Bob Fitzsimmons
25 James Toney
24 Michael Nunn
23 Jack 'Twin' Sullivan
22 Mike O'Dowd
21 Jake LaMotta
20 Freddie Steele
19 Marcel Thil
18 Gorilla Jones
17 Sammy Langford
16 Emile Griffith
15 Joey Giardello
14 Kid McCoy
13 Nino Benvenuti
12 Tony Zale
11 Marcel Cerdan
10 Roy Jones
9 Jack Dempsey
8 Harry Greb
7 Marvin Hagler
6 Bernard Hopkins
5 Mickey Walker
4 Charley Burley
3 Stanley Ketchel
2 Ray Robinson
1 Carlos Monzon

Mentions:
Young CorbettIII
'Bobo' Olson
Carmen Basilio
Terry Downes
Vito Antuofermo
Alan Minter
Iran Barkley
Julian Jackson
Gerald McClellan
Reggie Johnson

[brooklyn1550]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Marvin Hagler
4. Sugar Ray Robinson
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Charley Burley
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. Mickey Walker
10. Jake LaMotta

[McGrain]

40 Paul Pender
39 Thomas Hearns
38 Rocky Graziano



I hate you guys that get asked for 10 and cough up a 40.

Still, you got Burley at four, so I can't argue with you.

Where do yo have Burley on your WW list?

Please don't post the whole thing ;) ;)

[TBooze]

;) I hate you guys that get asked for 10 and cough up a 40.

Still, you got Burley at four, so I can't argue with you.

Where do yo have Burley on your WW list?

Please don't post the whole thing ;) ;)

I have Burley #10 all time, I do not have him on my Welterweight list...

Do not worry, it is a top 10 list!

Top 10 welters

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, 'Mysterious' Billy Smith, 'The original' Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted 'Kid' Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny 'Kid' Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley
Best Latinos of all time

Oh yeah and mentions;)

[McGrain]

;)


Oh yeah and mentions;)

:lol:


Why no Burley at Welter? He took some bodies down there, and as you know had 2/3 over Zivic in what could and possibly should have been a whitewash.

[TBooze]

:lol:


Why no Burley at Welter? He took some bodies down there, and as you know had 2/3 over Zivic in what could and possibly should have been a whitewash.

I never really thought of Burley as a 147lber, I know he fought at as low as 145, but I do not know...

I think when I did my 147lbs list I was in my anti Burley phase. I once had Burley as high as #2 all time, but then I was lucky enough to see the Smith and I was decidedly underwhelmed...

But I need to recognize it was at the end of his career and that Burley is rated for his defence over everything else, which means he probably was not the most exciting fighter even in his prime.

[janitor]

1. Harry Grebb
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Mickey Walker
4. Jeff Clarke
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Carlos Monzon
7. Marvin Hagler
8. Ray Robinson
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Mike Gibbons
11. Charley Burley
12. Tommy Ryan
13. Dick Tiger
14. Marcel Cerdan
15. Tiger Flowers

[McGrain]

I never really thought of Burley as a 147lber, I know he fought at as low as 145, but I do not know...

I think when I did my 147lbs list I was in my anti Burley phase. I once had Burley as high as #2 all time, but then I was lucky enough to see the Smith and I was decidedly underwhelmed...

But I need to recognize it was at the end of his career and that Burley is rated for his defence over everything else, which means he probably was not the most exciting fighter even in his prime.

Also Burley may have been carrying Smith in that fight - if he ever had a business fight then that was the one (and it makes it onto film!). Of course he was also outweighed by around 15lbs.

Burley WAS a natural welter. That's where he'd be most deadly all time head to head. With the title at stake? I wouldn't bet against him at that weight regardless of the opposition, though Hearns may be the wrong man.

[McGrain]

1. Harry Grebb
2. Bob Fitzsimmons
3. Mickey Walker
4. Jeff Clarke
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Carlos Monzon
7. Marvin Hagler
8. Ray Robinson
9. Bernard Hopkins
10. Mike Gibbons
11. Charley Burley
12. Tommy Ryan
13. Dick Tiger
14. Marcel Cerdan
15. Tiger Flowers

More heavily weighted towards the past than your HW list...if I may:

Hopkins above Burley?

Clarke above Robinson, Monzon and Hagler?

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain]
Clarke above Robinson, Monzon and Hagler?

Absolutely. Clark is one of the greatest pound for pound fighters that ever breathed.

[Smith]

1. Monzon
2. Greb
3. Robinson
4. Hagler
5. Fitzsimmons
6. Burley
7. Ketchell
8. B-Hop
9. Jones jr

I can't think of a tenth that should be on the list, i'll get back to it:huh, not to much knowledge on Clarke et al

[McGrain]

[quote]


Absolutely. Clark is one of the greatest pound for pound fighters that ever breathed.


Very well - but do you see your man beating these guys head to head or do you think his achievments at MW are greater than the men mentioned?

[janitor]

[quote=Sweet Pea]You gotta be kidding me. Fitz, Ketchell, Walker, and Clark over Monzon and Hagler? Over Robinson and Hopkins? Where do you come off saying that? I don't get that AT ALL.


Monzon Hagler and Robinson never really proved themselves above 160 lbs.

Fitz, Ketchel, Walker and Clark were all major players in the heavyweight divisions of their respective era's.

My criteria reward verry heavily for acomplishments at higher weights.

[McGrain]

1. Greb
2. Monzon
3. Hagler
4. Robinson
5. Hopkins
6. Fitzsimmons
7. Ketchell
8. Burley
9. Walker
10. Jones Jr.

A very good list. Suprised to see you rate Robinson as low as four though.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]


Very well - but do you see your man beating these guys head to head or do you think his achievments at MW are greater than the men mentioned?

I just think that his overall body of work is more impresive and that includes his catchweight fights.

[TBooze]

[quote]


Absolutely. Clark is one of the greatest pound for pound fighters that ever breathed.

LOL ;) stop winding him up!

[McGrain]

[quote]


My criteria reward verry heavily for acomplishments at higher weights.

What about the fact that Robinson and Burley are already gatecrashing a higher weight?

And do you make allownaces for the fact that most modern MW's are not under pressure to move up through the weights and if not, do you accept that this is the driving factor in shaping your list?

[janitor]

Hopkins above Burley?


I beleive that Burley was the better fighter but that he never got the chance to really show what he could do.

[brownpimp88]

I beleive that Burley was the better fighter but that he never got the chance to really show what he could do.
He was the better fighter based on which fights that you have actually seen, oh yeah i forgot there aren't many.

[janitor]

And do you make allownaces for the fact that most modern MW's are not under pressure to move up through the weights and if not, do you accept that this is the driving factor in shaping your list?

I am sure that this variable dose bias my list in favour of older fighters. At the same time I am not greatly concearned by what motivated these fighters to compile their records.

[janitor]

He was the better fighter based on which fights that you have actually seen, oh yeah i forgot there aren't many.

How do you think that Hopkins would fare against Archie Moore then?

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

LOL ;) stop winding him up!

I can apreciate that what I am saying is going to be hard to swallow for many people but Jeff Clark is honest to god boxings best kept secret.

He is a top 10 all time middleweight and pound for pound great who has virually fallen under the radar of history.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]This is a MW list, not a P4P list.

When you ask me for a middleweight list I draw a line at 160 lbs and list the greatest fighters who'se prime fighting weight was bellow this figure.

I apreciate that this is different to many peoples aproach.

[McGrain]

I beleive that Burley was the better fighter but that he never got the chance to really show what he could do.

If you mean because there is no film of him fighting middleweights you are quite right - if you mean he beat fighters of lesser quality than Hopkins, you are quite wrong.

Burley's win against Archie Moore is worth two of any of Hopkins' wins.

[TBooze]

[quote=Sweet Pea]

When you ask me for a middleweight list I draw a line at 160 lbs and list the greatest fighters who'se prime fighting weight was bellow this figure.

I apreciate that this is different to many peoples aproach.

Clarke fought mainly against 175lbers and Heavies. Sure some of these matches may of been catchweight affairs, but come on Clarke may drop of the radar as far as boxing today goes, and he may be a name that deserves a mention in the Langford, McVey, Jeanette era, but that is it, it is mere spin to place him above a Robinson, Burley or Monzon IMO.

[janitor]

[quote=TBooze]
Clarke fought mainly against 175lbers and Heavies. Sure some of these matches may of been catchweight affairs,


Clark's prime weight was under 160 lbs. The main reason why he fought so many light heavies and heavies is because he was institutionaly avoided by the middleweights of the day. He was the outstanding challenger for the middleweight title over a verry long period.


but come on Clarke may drop of the radar as far as boxing today goes, and he may be a name that deserves a mention in the Langford, McVey, Jeanette era, but that is it, it is mere spin to place him above a Robinson, Burley or Monzon IMO.


There is not a shadow of doubt in my mind that he ranks higher pound for pound than Monzon.

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain]If you mean because there is no film of him fighting middleweights you are quite right - if you mean he beat fighters of lesser quality than Hopkins, you are quite wrong.


I think that he did not get the big fights of the era that a legacy is built on.


Burley's win against Archie Moore is worth two of any of Hopkins' wins.


I have to agree but at the same time you have to consider the circumstances in terms of both Moores career and Burleys career when the fight took place.

Moore was not at his peak physicaly technicaly or financialy. He took Burley as a last minute sub for another opponent.

[Jack]

Marcel Cerdan is overrated. as is Jake LaMotta. I doubt either of these would get in my head to head top 20. Both look average and poor on film respectively. Cerdan had a record full of nobodies and LaMotta's legacy is based on two opponents.

Neither would be champions today. Someone like Hopknis, Wright or even taylor would outpoint them. Tough, strong fighters, but not exactly great.

[McGrain]

[quote]


I think that he did not get the big fights of the era that a legacy is built on.

In terms of quality if not name - resticting him just to middle he beat Shorty Hogue, Holman Williams (many times, as you know), Tiger Wade, Cocao Kid, Jack Chase, Archie Moore, Oscar Boyd, not household names but very good fighters, and often for things like "the black middleweight championship, or the "Calafornia State Championship". I'd suggest that there are parallel's between Burley's predicament and that endured by the black heavyweight champs of the pre-Louis era.



I have to agree but at the same time you have to consider the circumstances in terms of both Moores career and Burleys career when the fight took place.

Moore was not at his peak physicaly technicaly or financialy. He took Burley as a last minute sub for another opponent.

I had the story the other way around - that Burley had taken the story on one days notice. It came about because Burley travelled so late trying to save money on hotels etc.

Turns out both of them are untrue. Moore appears on the front of a magazine promoting the fight, so both had reasonable time to prepare.

[McGrain]

Marcel Cerdan is overrated. as is Jake LaMotta. I doubt either of these would get in my head to head top 20. Both look average and poor on film respectively. Cerdan had a record full of nobodies and LaMotta's legacy is based on two opponents.

Neither would be champions today. Someone like Hopknis, Wright or even taylor would outpoint them. Tough, strong fighters, but not exactly great.

Both have good names on their resume of couse, and I think both would give any MW a very hard night but I do know where you are coming from in terms of them being overated.

Looking at todays MW division though I think your pushing it a bit to suggest that niether would be at belt holders. With Hopkins out of the way, in face, i'd expect them to be fighting a series for the undisputed title.

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain]I'd suggest that there are parallel's between Burley's predicament and that endured by the black heavyweight champs of the pre-Louis era.

I concour.


I had the story the other way around - that Burley had taken the story on one days notice. It came about because Burley travelled so late trying to save money on hotels etc.

Turns out both of them are untrue. Moore appears on the front of a magazine promoting the fight, so both had reasonable time to prepare.


Interesting.

[janitor]

LaMotta's legacy is based on two opponents.


I have to disagree here.

In fact if Robinson is one of the two then I am not sure who the other is.

[McGrain]

[quote] Interesting.

"The Knockout", dated April 12 1944 (no.17) if you're interested in following up.

Vol 18 no.17.

[hopkinsfan07]

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Charley Burley
7. Ray Robinson
8. Tony Zale
9. Marcel Cerdan
10. Bob Fitzimmons

[McGrain]

1. Carlos Monzon
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Harry Greb
5. Stanley Ketchel
6. Charley Burley
7. Ray Robinson
8. Tony Zale
9. Marcel Cerdan
10. Bob Fitzimmons


Fine list.

Hopkins above Greb is the interesting one here, let's hear about that.

[robert ungurean]

1 Greb
2 Monzon
3 Burley
4 Robinson
5 Hagler
6 Fitzsimmons
7 Hopkins
8 Ketchel
9 Tiger
10 Papp

[rekcutnevets]

Robinson
Monzon
Greb
Hagler
Hopkins
Lamotta
Dick Tiger
Zale
Benvenuti
Toney- Did more than Jones Jr. at this weight. In fact, only reason I feel
Jones is best super middle ever is because he beat Toney.

[rekcutnevets]

You can argue Burley as well. I didn't think of him earlier, because I was trying to think of champions. It is not his fault he did not get a title shot, unless you want to hold how good he was against him.

[hopkinsfan07]

Fine list.

Hopkins above Greb is the interesting one here, let's hear about that.

ha i have no reason apart from Hopkins is my fav fighter ever. He was champ for 20 years and beat many world champs though

[Holmes' Jab]

My Top 10:

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Charley Burley
7. Stanley Ketchell
8. Roy Jones Jr
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. Mickey Walker

[Minotauro]

1. Harry Greb
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Marvin Hagler
5. Charley Burley
6. Mickey Walker
7. Bernard Hopkins
8. Holman Williams
9. Dick Tiger
10. Jake LaMotta


Holman Williams is seriously underrated he has some huge wins over Moore, Booker, Cocoa Kid, Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade and Satterfield.

[McGrain]

Holman Williams is seriously underrated he has some huge wins over Moore, Booker, Cocoa Kid, Burley, Lloyd Marshall, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade and Satterfield.


Whether he's this high or not, I don't know, but well said.

[hopkinsfan07]

10. Jake LaMotta


Lamotta in the top ten ?

[Axe]

;)

I have Burley #10 all time, I do not have him on my Welterweight list...

Do not worry, it is a top 10 list!

Top 10 welters

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, 'Mysterious' Billy Smith, 'The original' Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted 'Kid' Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny 'Kid' Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley
Best Latinos of all time

Oh yeah and mentions;)

:rofl :rofl :rofl

[hopkinsfan07]

:rofl :rofl :rofl

i did see that i just diddent see any point in saying anything he must be mental

[TBooze]

i did see that i just diddent see any point in saying anything he must be mental

They call be Frank at the hospital;)

I guess rating a fighter who never lost a bout at 147lbs beating de la Hoya on the way, is madness.

[jyuza]

Well, I would rank Hearns higher than Tito at least...

[McGrain]

ha i have no reason apart from Hopkins is my fav fighter ever.

At least you'll admit it. Some guys do the same thing and then try to defend it to the hilt with "Facts".

[hopkinsfan07]

At least you'll admit it. Some guys do the same thing and then try to defend it to the hilt with "Facts".

if you want my unbiased list knock hopkins down 3 rugs