Max Baer vs. Oliver McCall [Archive] - East Side Boxing Forum

ChrisPontius

12-15-2007, 07:47 AM

Mendoza

12-15-2007, 08:14 AM

OLD FOGEY

12-15-2007, 09:54 AM

This is how I see it as well.

Ditto.

BUDW

12-15-2007, 10:51 AM

A serious max would flatten Oliver in 8-9 rds.

Woddy

12-15-2007, 11:00 AM

A serious max would flatten Oliver in 8-9 rds.

When did this ever happen to McCall?

dmt

12-15-2007, 11:03 AM

While McCall may win this Baer was not "horrible"

Woddy

12-15-2007, 11:09 AM

While McCall may win this Baer was not "horrible"

No he wasn't. He was a very good fighter. Good boxing skills were not really one of his strong points though. He definately was not a scientist. Baer had great power, punch output, chin, guts and some other fine qualities.

C. M. Clay II

12-15-2007, 07:12 PM

Baer wins a UD.

BIG DEE

12-16-2007, 09:10 PM

BIG DEE HERE= Baer by KO after punishing McCall and flat out making him quit. Mccall never fought anyone with Baer`s power. The thing that you young guy`s dion`t understand about Baer is that when he was in the mood to fight he was damn near unbeatable. The Louis fight Dempsey said till
the end of his days that Baer thought he was going to whip him easy untill the weigh in and Max joked with Joe and he just looked at him with that dead
look he had and Baer crumbled. I literally had to push him out of the corner for the first rd. Baer wouldn`t be afraid of Mccall at all and would come out
to put him away. Only one man ever Koed Baer Joe Louis and it took
a hundred clean shots by one of the 5 hardest hitting Champions in heavyweight history. BAER DOESN`T LOSE THIS ONE KO IN 8RDS OR LESS
AS MCCALL NEVER FOUGHT ANYONE WITH BAER`S SET OF WHISKERS
MCCALL WILL FALL APART MENTALLY AND TAKE A BEATING.

Bummy Davis

12-16-2007, 10:32 PM

A focused and conditioned Max was a much better fighter than McCall, he would win and could be the 1st man to stop the bull but I would give Max the fight

brooklyn1550

12-17-2007, 12:52 AM

McCall UD

Senya13

12-17-2007, 12:57 AM

McCall by KO. Baer is terrible in skills department, really.

Holmes' Jab

12-17-2007, 04:49 AM

Can't envisage a stoppage here. McCall by UD.

heerko koois

12-17-2007, 06:37 AM

Bear on points [ ud ]

rekcutnevets

12-17-2007, 01:30 PM

Baer's power would be the difference here. Not in a ko way, but for scoring purposes. His shots would be heavier and look better to the judges. Baer by decision.

janitor

12-17-2007, 05:36 PM

A question to all those picking McCall by UD.

Would you pick Oliver McCall to beat George Foreman by UD for the same reasons and if not why not?

ChrisPontius

12-17-2007, 05:51 PM

A question to all those picking McCall by UD.

Would you pick Oliver McCall to beat George Foreman by UD for the same reasons and if not why not?

No, i wouldn't. Foreman probably stops McCall the way he stops Chuvalo: by battering him and the referee intervening. I don't see Baer doing this because he did not have the same combination punching and aggression.

janitor

12-17-2007, 06:00 PM

[quote=ChrisPontius]No, i wouldn't. Foreman probably stops McCall the way he stops Chuvalo: by battering him and the referee intervening.

And if he dosnt?

This is McCall we are talking about.

I don't see Baer doing this because he did not have the same combination punching and aggression.

Depends which Baer shows up.

If it is the Baer of the Schmeling fight then the same logic could well come into play.

Personaly I like Baer to win by decision for the reasons recutnevets outlined. His power would not stop McCall but would prevent him from implementing his plan and impresing the judges.

Mega Lamps

12-17-2007, 06:02 PM

Prime Baer by stoppage sometime during the fight or he at least wins by decision. Some people have the strangest thoughts on things; it still shocks me.

janitor

12-17-2007, 06:06 PM

Another question that I will ask is whether McCalls jaw is as good as advertised.

While he was only TKOd against Lennox Lewis I get the idea that Lewis was holding back a bit because McCall was clearly not in a fit state to defend himself. Perhaps Lewis just did the minimum he had to to force the stoppage.

ChrisPontius

12-17-2007, 06:09 PM

And if he dosnt?

This is McCall we are talking about.

Then McCall may well win a decision or Foreman punches himself out. Or Foreman wins a decision, who knows? Foreman never really proved himself against a skilled boxer with a good chin; Ali and Young both humiliated him. Now, McCall is not THAT skilled so it may well be Foreman who wins a decision.

Depends which Baer shows up.

If it is the Baer of the Schmeling fight then the same logic could well come into play.

Personaly I like Baer to win by decision for the reasons recutnevets outlined. His power would not stop McCall but would prevent him from implementing his plan and impresing the judges.
Which Baer was ever motivated, though? He pretty much let Carnera off the hook for 9 rounds or so. Or maybe better put: he could only land significantly in two of those eleven rounds.

Another 'lesser' boxer with an iron chin in Braddock beat him, too.

janitor

12-18-2007, 03:36 AM

Which Baer was ever motivated, though?

A valid question.

Baer was certainly motivated for the Schmeling fight and this might be the only fight where we see a prime motivated Baer.

He also became a lot more business first later in his career when past his prime (presumably no longer feeling that he had the luxury of being able to clown. The Pat Comiskey and Lou Nova fights show a focused but past prime Baer.

JohnThomas1

12-18-2007, 05:30 AM

A question to all those picking McCall by UD.

Would you pick Oliver McCall to beat George Foreman by UD for the same reasons and if not why not?

I see Foreman as the better fighter, simple.

Sonny's jab

12-18-2007, 05:43 AM

I know we're supposed to imagine these guys AT THEIR BEST for these fantasy match-ups, but I dont see this pair putting on decent performances against each other.

As soon as they realize each other can take a huge shot I would imagine the punch output drops to a dismal level, and they waltz and posture to the final bell. Baer might clown a bit, foul a bit, occasionally land a haymaker. McCall would look for one big shot.
A crappy heavyweight match.

Both guys looked in great shape most of the time but were almost completely ineffective when they had to produce more than punching power to win big. Great physical strength, great physiques, awesome power, and fit to fight all night, but lacking brain or heart or something .... They just seemed to forget how to box.

JohnThomas1

12-18-2007, 05:59 AM

janitor

12-18-2007, 12:37 PM

I see Foreman as the better fighter, simple.

You could be more specific.

Smokin'Joe100

12-18-2007, 01:33 PM

Its like the crying mccall, wasn't even defending himself and took some clean bombs of lennox and didnt even move, just started crying. Thats how you define a iron chin.

janitor

12-18-2007, 02:58 PM

Its like the crying mccall, wasn't even defending himself and took some clean bombs of lennox and didnt even move, just started crying. Thats how you define a iron chin.

I got the idea that Lennox eased up on McCall a bit when he saw that he was unable to defend himself doing the minimum he had to to force a stopage.

This is verry much to his credit.

teeto

12-18-2007, 04:05 PM

I think Baer would win , he was really good , and his punch is one of the most powerful

SuzieQ49

12-19-2007, 02:42 AM

McCall UD. McCall was no master boxer but Baer was flat out horrible. His punch won't save him against McCall's chin, though McCall is not likely to hurt Baer either. Probably goes to a boring decision for the atomic bull.

baer made up for his lack of boxing skills with punching skills. max schmeling had 10x the skills mccall had, and baer beat the shit out of max and entering the 10th round was slightly ahead on the cards against a master boxer like max

Russell

12-19-2007, 01:05 PM

Eh, Lennox was unloading on him hard enough.

McCall just put his hands down at his side and ate them flush.

Funny how ex-drug addicts have such good chins in boxing.

janitor

12-19-2007, 04:07 PM

Eh, Lennox was unloading on him hard enough.

McCall just put his hands down at his side and ate them flush.

Studying the film I think Lewis held back a bit when it became obvious that McCall was in no fit state to be in the ring.

ChrisPontius

12-19-2007, 04:20 PM

baer made up for his lack of boxing skills with punching skills. max schmeling had 10x the skills mccall had, and baer beat the shit out of max and entering the 10th round was slightly ahead on the cards against a master boxer like max

Really? Then why did it take him so long to put Schmeling away, considering Schmeling had a somewhat questionable chin. I have only seen a few rounds of this fight, but my understanding is that Baer was down on the cards by a few rounds in the 10th.

janitor

12-19-2007, 04:21 PM

Really? Then why did it take him so long to put Schmeling away, considering Schmeling had a somewhat questionable chin.

Nobody else did an better apart from you know who. Not at any meaningfull stage in his career.

SuzieQ49

12-19-2007, 05:10 PM

Really? Then why did it take him so long to put Schmeling away, considering Schmeling had a somewhat questionable chin. I have only seen a few rounds of this fight, but my understanding is that Baer was down on the cards by a few rounds in the 10th.

I had the fight scored 4 rounds to 4 with 1 even entering the 10th. If i am not mistaken, baer was slightly ahead on the cards entering the 10th. The fact you only seen a few rounds of the fight shows you should probably keep your mouth shut about baer until you fully examine what a peak baer was capable of doing. This was by far baer's best fight, defensivly and boxing wise.

schmeling questionable chin? don't tell me your going by a couple knockout losses he suffered at age 19-20 years old are ya? ali was getting floored by the likes of sonny banks and alan hudson at that age

ChrisPontius

12-20-2007, 06:58 AM

I had the fight scored 4 rounds to 4 with 1 even entering the 10th. If i am not mistaken, baer was slightly ahead on the cards entering the 10th. The fact you only seen a few rounds of the fight shows you should probably keep your mouth shut about baer until you fully examine what a peak baer was capable of doing. This was by far baer's best fight, defensivly and boxing wise.

schmeling questionable chin? don't tell me your going by a couple knockout losses he suffered at age 19-20 years old are ya? ali was getting floored by the likes of sonny banks and alan hudson at that age

Yep, but Ali didn't get stopped in the first round several times even when he had 20+ pro fights. Different things.

Just take a look at the first 20/30 pro fights of fighters during his era, Baer, Sharkey, Carnera etc. None of them have as many LKO1's as Schmeling. The only logical conclusion is that he has a somewhat suspect chin behind brilliant boxing skills.

RockyJim

12-20-2007, 11:08 AM

"Madcap Maxie" by KO........

janitor

12-20-2007, 03:57 PM

Yep, but Ali didn't get stopped in the first round several times even when he had 20+ pro fights. Different things.

Just take a look at the first 20/30 pro fights of fighters during his era, Baer, Sharkey, Carnera etc. None of them have as many LKO1's as Schmeling. The only logical conclusion is that he has a somewhat suspect chin behind brilliant boxing skills.

Consider that Schmeling had only a dozen amateur bouts before he turned pro and that many iron chined fighters got knocked out in their amateur bouts.

Now consider that between the age of 21 and 40 something his only stopage losses were to Louis and Baer, both all time punchers both TKOs.

That suggests to me that either his chin got a lot better or his defense was off the scale. I am inclined towards the former.

JohnThomas1

12-20-2007, 05:19 PM

Consider that Schmeling had only a dozen amateur bouts before he turned pro and that many iron chined fighters got knocked out in their amateur bouts.

What would be 10 good examples of the "many" iron chinned fighters who were knocked out as amateurs.

janitor

12-20-2007, 05:24 PM

What would be 10 good examples of the "many" iron chinned fighters who were knocked out as amateurs.

I will give you one obvious evample.

David Tua.

Iced in the first round by Felix Savon as an amateur but seen as undentable as a profesional.

brownpimp88

12-20-2007, 05:52 PM

I will give you one obvious evample.

David Tua.

Iced in the first round by Felix Savon as an amateur but seen as undentable as a profesional.
I would have to agree with janitor. Its a well known fact that by the time you reach 21, you're bones become more mature and you physically stop growing as a person.

janitor

12-20-2007, 05:58 PM

I would have to agree with janitor. Its a well known fact that by the time you reach 21, you're bones become more mature and you physically stop growing as a person.

Chin is mainly a neurological thing. The more punches you take the more you become adapted to taking them, up to a point.

Jack Dempsey used to invite boxers to take a clean swing at his chin to toughen it up.

brownpimp88

12-20-2007, 06:00 PM

Chin is mainly a neurological thing. The more punches you take the more you become adapted to taking them, up to a point.

Jack Dempsey used to invite boxers to take a clean swing at his chin to toughen it up.
I always thought the strengh of your legs have something to do with your ability to take a punch. Qawi for example had thick concrete legs and he could take crazy punches. Bob foster and hearns on the other hand had skinny legs and their chins were weak.

ChrisPontius

12-20-2007, 06:09 PM

Consider that Schmeling had only a dozen amateur bouts before he turned pro and that many iron chined fighters got knocked out in their amateur bouts.

Now consider that between the age of 21 and 40 something his only stopage losses were to Louis and Baer, both all time punchers both TKOs.

That suggests to me that either his chin got a lot better or his defense was off the scale. I am inclined towards the former.

Tua was fighting a highly experienced amatuer-veteran (he couldn't turn pro). Schmeling wasn't fighting someone like that the times he was knocked out; in fact he was a veteran and high talent compared to them.

I already compared his record to fighters of his stature who came up in the same time under the same circumstances and he comes off as the only one with first round knockout losses. The logical conclusion is to you.

janitor

12-20-2007, 06:11 PM

I always thought the strengh of your legs have something to do with your ability to take a punch. Qawi for example had thick concrete legs and he could take crazy punches. Bob foster and hearns on the other hand had skinny legs and their chins were weak.

There are not many skiny guys with great punch resistence, but there are notable exceptions. Like Panama Al Brown.

JohnThomas1

12-20-2007, 06:12 PM

I will give you one obvious evample.

David Tua.

Iced in the first round by Felix Savon as an amateur but seen as undentable as a profesional.

One is a long way short of "many" tho. It was a pretty big statement, i'd think 10 examples would be a fair way to qualify it. One example doesn't do it for me. I'm not super up to date on amateur boxing and a list of iron chinned pro fighters who were knocked out in the ams will definitely add to my knowledge. Good trivia this.

JohnThomas1

12-20-2007, 06:14 PM

I always thought the strengh of your legs have something to do with your ability to take a punch. Qawi for example had thick concrete legs and he could take crazy punches. Bob foster and hearns on the other hand had skinny legs and their chins were weak.

What about Panama Al Brown and Sandy Saddler?

Whoops, there goes that theory

:good

brownpimp88

12-20-2007, 06:17 PM

What about Panama Al Brown and Sandy Saddler?

Whoops, there goes that theory

:good
sandy saddler was much bigger than alot of his opponents. Bob Foster never got kod at light heavyweight cuz he was twice as big, when he moved up, his punch resistance was shown.

JohnThomas1

12-20-2007, 06:22 PM

sandy saddler was much bigger than alot of his opponents. Bob Foster never got kod at light heavyweight cuz he was twice as big, when he moved up, his punch resistance was shown.

That's one wierd comeback.

Saddler was bigger than his opponents? You must mean taller, because he can't be bigger any other way. Hearns was also taller than his opponents, just the same as Saddler. Your comment cannot make sense. As for Foster and your comments, i can't even begin to follow.

brownpimp88

12-20-2007, 06:26 PM

That's one wierd comeback.

Saddler was bigger than his opponents? You must mean taller, because he can't be bigger any other way. Hearns was also taller than his opponents, just the same as Saddler. Your comment cannot make sense. As for Foster and your comments, i can't even begin to follow.
Well the vast majority of glass jawed fighters have weak legs, it outnumbers the strong chinned fighters with skinny legs. You cant tell me that skinny legs play no role in ur punch resistance.

JohnThomas1

12-20-2007, 06:35 PM

Well the vast majority of glass jawed fighters have weak legs, it outnumbers the strong chinned fighters with skinny legs. You cant tell me that skinny legs play no role in ur punch resistance.
I agree, but one can't totally sterotype. Last i looked Al Brown had VERY skinny legs, as well as Saddler and Foster. It's certainly not a rule.

There's 100 000+ guys over the centuries that have brick solid legs and glass jaws.

Zakman

12-21-2007, 01:48 PM

Baer's power would be the difference here. Not in a ko way, but for scoring purposes. His shots would be heavier and look better to the judges. Baer by decision.

I think you are absolutely right. Don't think Baer would stop McCall - although I don't rule out a late TKO - but he would almost certainly outscore him. Baer at his best, was superior to McCall in just about every way, and had equivilant punch resistance. I don't see how a limited fighter like McCall beats a prime, prepared Baer, frankly.