Where is Marvin Hagler in your Top Middleweights ATG?

[Bad_Intentions]

i have him at #3.

[Bad_Intentions]

Same.:good

[Bummy Davis]

top 10

[redrooster]

#1 Is Most Common

[hopkinsfan07]

:bbb i have him at 2

[Bad_Intentions]

:bbb i have him at 2who's #1 in your list?

[Stonehands89]

THE Middleweight King.

[Bad_Intentions]

THE Middleweight King.greb?

[brooklyn1550]

3 behind Greb and Monzon

[hopkinsfan07]

who's #1 in your list?

Monzon

[Bad_Intentions]

Monzonhe has great skills. but according to his record, he only fought in his country of argentina and europe, and only 1 U.S fighter?. :huh

[Bad_Intentions]

Emile Griffith? He also fought top notch guys like Nino Benvenuti, Jose Napoles, Bennie Brisco, and some other pretty good names like Licata and and Valdez.

He did fight in the US as well, where are you getting this?yes but those are INTERNATIONAL BOXERS. who has he beaten from the United States? only emile griffith?

[Senya13]

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Sugar Ray Robinson

[hopkinsfan07]

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Sugar Ray Robinson

i wouldent be so proud to post that if i was you

[Senya13]

I don't care what anyone thinks about it. All such lists are subjective, and are just for fun, not something to die defending them.

[TBooze]

Hagler is #7 IMO.

10 Roy Jones
9 Jack Dempsey
8 Harry Greb
7 Marvin Hagler
6 Bernard Hopkins
5 Mickey Walker
4 Charley Burley
3 Stanley Ketchel
2 Ray Robinson
1 Carlos Monzon

[Senya13]

Who did Jack Dempsey beat at middleweight?

[TBooze]

Who did Jack Dempsey beat at middleweight?

LOL;)

[TBooze]

:patsch

Oh I forgot, it should of been

1 Harry Greb
2 Harry Greb's dad
3 Harry Greb's son
4 Harry Greb's uncle
5 Harry Greb's best mate
6 Harry Greb's neighbour
7 Harry Greb's dog
8 The bloke who bumped into Harry Greb on March 19 1920
9 Harry Greb's optician
10 Harry Greb's barber

[Senya13]

He beat Mike Donovan. That's one good win. He won the title from Billy McCarthy. Nothing impressive, but can be added as another good win, ok. But #9? He was a natural welterweight, who accidentally won a title at middleweight.

[TBooze]

He beat Mike Donovan. That's one good win. He won the title from Billy McCarthy. Nothing impressive, but can be added as another good win, ok. But #9? He was a natural welterweight, who accidentally won a title at middleweight.

He gets kudos for being a pioneer. LaBlanche, Reagan, Donavon, McCaffrey and McCarthy were fair fighters, and as his name suggests he was without Pareil for a good five/six years.

[jyuza]

Arguably the best ever.

His wins over Hearns, Duran were enough to put him up in the top 5.
His ranking depends on how you judge him in the Leonard bout. I feel like he won that fight so right now I rank him number one with Greb just behind and Monzon at the 3rd spot.

[TBooze]

it You have no points as to why Greb is so low for you.

I have as the eighth best Middleweight ever, that is brilliant, because he was an amazing fight.

[Senya13]

Pioneer at what?
He was the nonpareil for about 3-4 years. By the time he won the middleweight title he had already been on downslide, even as early as late 1888 actually, he was already past it.

[jyuza]

First off, How are wins over a WW and a LW quality for a top 5 MW spot? Not arguing that he isn't, but people give Hopkins all kinds of shit for doing the same stuff.

And what do either fighters have on their resume to place them above Greb?

Just my opinion, mate.

I am pretty convinced that Leonard could have beaten almost every middleweight in history. The WW argument isn't trully important.

[jyuza]

Which ones do you think he loses to?

For me it's:

Prime Hagler
Jones Jr
Monzon
Greb
Hopkins
SRR

That's quite a few right there.

Well, he already lost to a faded version of Hagler in my opinion.

I give Leonard the edge in a Hopkins fight but hey, those are the top of the top at middleweight even if he loses to most of them he would give them hell and make it close.

[Holmes' Jab]

Hagler is numero uno @ MW - closely followed by Greb, SRR and Monzon.

[Stonehands89]

greb?

No. It's the guy to the left of your posts.

[rekcutnevets]

4th. Behind Robinson, Monzon, and Greb.

[Bad_Intentions]

No. It's the guy to the left of your posts.

oh :good :good

[TBooze]

He had the best resume of all time and is arguably the greatest ever, yet you have him barely top 10 among his best weight class? :huh

No Robinson had the best resume period, his win/loss record against Angott, Zivic, LaMotta, Armstrong, Bell, Doyle, Gavilan, Fusari, Olson, Turpin, Fullmer and Basilio was 25-5-1...

Greb's against Blackburn, Chip, the Gibbons, Dillon, Levinsky, O'Dowd, McTigue, Miske, Norfolk, Tunney, Loughran, Flowers, Slattery, Rosenbloom, Walker, Delaney and Flowers was 7-6-1...

[McGrain]

i have him at #3.

I have him at #7

I know that's pretty low but it's a pretty good division.

[TBooze]

You just named 17 fighters and said his record was 7-6-1 against them, that isn't even possible.

Hence the flaw in Greb's record, he fought in the era of no decisions, against the 17 best fighters he fought, he had a near 50/50 record on fights that counted.

[dmt]

1.Hagler
2.Monzon
3.Greb
4.Robinson
5.Hopkins

[robert ungurean]

1 Greb
2 Monzon
3 Burley
4 Robinson
5 Hagler
6 Fitzsimmons
7 Hopkins
8 Ketchel
9 Papp
10 Tiger
The thing that bothers me about Robinson is that he avoided all the badass black fighter's of his day. Burley being one along with the likes of Williams ect.

[jyuza]

You just named 17 fighters and said his record was 7-6-1 against them, that isn't even possible.

He lost 3 times to Tunney. But indeed it is impossible to have 7-6-1

[TBooze]

He lost 3 times to Tunney. But indeed it is impossible to have 7-6-1

No, look at the record books...

Over half his known resume is tainted with No decision bouts (180+)

[heerko koois]

Number 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!! ..............

[Bad_Intentions]

Number 1 !!!!!!!!!!!!! ..............:good :good

[jyuza]

No, look at the record books...

Over half his known resume is tainted with No decision bouts (180+)

Record books ? Can help me with it please ? I am rather interested to see it.

[sweet_scientist]

First off, How are wins over a WW and a LW quality for a top 5 MW spot? Not arguing that he isn't, but people give Hopkins all kinds of shit for doing the same stuff.

And what do either fighters have on their resume to place them above Greb?

I think there's a fair gap between SRL, Tommy Hearns and Roberto Duran on the one hand and DLH, Tito and Simon Brown on the other.

The worst of that trio on Marv's resume is better than the best of the trio on Hops' resume.

That said, Greb is a clear # 1 for me. And Hagler and Monzon are an interchangeable # 2 and #3. After that it does become rather debateable.

[TBooze]

Record books ? Can help me with it please ? I am rather interested to see it.


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Is a good starting point

[Senya13]

What has Harry Greb done at middleweight? I.e. exactly at or below 160lb. Lost to Tiger Flowers 3 times (argueably)?

[brooklyn1550]

What has Harry Greb done at middleweight? I.e. exactly at or below 160lb. Lost to Tiger Flowers 3 times (argueably)?

Beat Mickey Walker and Tommy Loughran

[Senya13]

Which fight with Tommy Loughran was below 160lb limit?
Mickey Walker was a useless fight with blown-up welterweight, as it was considered in contemporary sources and it turned out exactly that way, one-sided bout. For Greb to earn some money, was all it was.

[jyuza]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Is a good starting point

I still don't know where you saw the 180+ NC bouts.

[sweet_scientist]

Which fight with Tommy Loughran was below 160lb limit?
Mickey Walker was a useless fight with blown-up welterweight, as it was considered in contemporary sources and it turned out exactly that way, one-sided bout. For Greb to earn some money, was all it was.

How can you say that after all the bigger guys Walker went on to compete against and beat?

If you want to see a useless fight with a blown up welterweight to ean some easy money, look no further than Hopkins-DLH.

[TBooze]

I still don't know where you saw the 180+ NC bouts.

What; you need to check your eye sight my friend...

Harry Greb 299 fights; 106 wins; 8 losses; 3 draws; 182 no decisions

[sweet_scientist]

On the whole I'd say newspaper accounts have proved more reliable than judges' scorecards over the years, so does it really matter that they were no decision bouts?

[Senya13]

Don't people claim RJJ doesn't belong because he didn't do much at 160lb? Well, the thing is neither Harry Greb, nor Mickey Walker have done much at 160lb limit either. The bout with Walker was an exciting one, but it was one-sided in almost all rounds, Walker was still a welterweight and inexperienced.
Walker's victory over Flowers is his only significant achievement at 160lb, but what kind of victory that was, we all know.

[TBooze]

On the whole I'd say newspaper accounts have proved more reliable than judges' scorecards over the years, so does it really matter that they were no decision bouts?

Yes, offically they were no decisions, Frawley Law, the orginitator of the no decision bout, is an important part of the sport. Without it boxing would not be legal in many parts of the USA.

Greb as well as every other fighter knew this and were prepared to deal with it, so they could be paid legally. So Greb ends up with at least 180 no decisions on his record.

[sweet_scientist]

Don't people claim RJJ doesn't belong because he didn't do much at 160lb? Well, the thing is neither Harry Greb, nor Mickey Walker have done much at 160lb limit either. The bout with Walker was an exciting one, but it was one-sided in almost all rounds, Walker was still a welterweight and inexperienced.
Walker's victory over Flowers is his only significant achievement at 160lb, but what kind of victory that was, we all know.

Well for starters, we don't have the weights of each fighter in a lot fo Greb fights. Some of them might have taken place below the 160 pound limit.

Secondly, yes, a lot of his fights were above 160, but for all intents and purposes they were contests between middleweights (or a middleweight and a lightheavyweight in many instances) that were taking place outside of title fights where the fighters didn't have to meet the 160 limit. They weren't even fully fledged supermiddles (and probably by today's standards, weren't even fully fledged middles).

So technically perhaps, yes, Greb had a lot of fights above 160, but really, he wasn't much more than a middleweight in most of those fights.

Senya, do you think he should be rated as a supermiddle or a lightheavy then?

[jyuza]

What; you need to check your eye sight my friend...

Harry Greb 299 fights; 106 wins; 8 losses; 3 draws; 182 no decisions

Well, my friend, take a closer look and you will see Greb books has +153 wins in his record.

[sweet_scientist]

Yes, offically they were no decisions, Frawley Law, the orginitator of the no decision bout, is an important part of the sport. Without it boxing would not be legal in many parts of the USA.

Greb as well as every other fighter knew this and were prepared to deal with it, so they could be paid legally. So Greb ends up with at least 180 no decisions on his record.

How many no decisions would Willie Pep have in Greb's time? Would that make him the 8th or 9th best feather of all time?

[Senya13]

Greb should rank at light heavyweight.
He trained very hard for the Walker fight, but only got down to 159lb.
Most of his significant fights took place at light heavyweight limit. For his relentless style to be most effective he needed to have little excessive weight, yet most of them had taken place above 160lb, so he probably felt that weight suit him better than going below 160lb. There's a legend that he never trained very hard, so this might be some excessive weight, but in fact he trained a lot, it was only a trick he often used to make his opponents believe he was out of shape. He showed up with girls, with a cigar, etc, but it was only playing for the public.
Using the arguments that are often mentioned here, had Greb and his opponents been fighting today, they'd be more muscled and weigh several pounds heavier too, again - they'd still be either 168 or 175-pounders.

[TBooze]

How many no decisions would Willie Pep have in Greb's time? Would that make him the 8th or 9th best feather of all time?

But he did not fight in the era. He had no no decision bouts!

It is like asking what if my aunty was my uncle...

[sweet_scientist]

Greb should rank at light heavyweight.
He trained very hard for the Walker fight, but only got down to 159lb.
Most of his significant fights took place at light heavyweight limit. For his relentless style to be most effective he needed to have little excessive weight, yet most of them had taken place above 160lb, so he probably felt that weight suit him better than going below 160lb. There's a legend that he never trained very hard, so this might be some excessive weight, but in fact he trained a lot, it was only a trick he often used to make his opponents believe he was out of shape. He showed up with girls, with a cigar, etc, but it was only playing for the public.
Using the arguments that are often mentioned here, had Greb and his opponents been fighting today, they'd be more muscled and weigh several pounds heavier too, again - they'd still be either 168 or 175-pounders.

I think you could rate him both at middle and light heavy, but he spent the majority of his career as a small light heavy. That still makes him a light heavy, but he was never really a fully fledged light heavy. In most of his key fights he weighed in the 160s.

In any case, I would rate him highliy at middle based on many of the things he did weighing in the mid 160s. It is based on speculation but I think he COULD have made 160 quite a bit more often if he fought for the middleweight title more often. People often dont like to take account of what a fighter did at a higher weight class when rating a fighter at a certain lower weight class but I think it is somewhat myopic to do so.

For instance, take Floyd Mayweather. Would he really rate top 50 at lightweight if we don't take account of what he did in other weight classes? A controversial fight with Castillo most felt he lost and a rematch he won clearly but didn't dominate. Then a less than impressive performance against Victoriano Sosa. Is that enough to put him top 50 at lightweight? I could name 50 lightweights with better accomplishments. But measuring his talent and what he accomplished at other weights, it seems foolish to rate him so low.

[sweet_scientist]

But he did not fight in the era. He had no no decision bouts!

It is like asking what if my aunty was my uncle...

Yeah, but what if she was... ?!?

:D

[Senya13]

Key fights?

1917-07-30 Jack Dillon - 165
1918-02-25 Mike O'Dowd - 155.5
1919-02-17 Battling Levinsky - 164.5
1919-05-08 Willie Meehan - 166
1922-03-13 Tommy Gibbons - 163.5
1922-05-23 Gene Tunney - 162.25
1923-01-15 Tommy Loughran - 168.25
1923-01-30 Tommy Loughran - 166
1923-10-11 Tommy Loughran - 168
1923-12-10 Gene Tunney - 171.5
1923-12-25 Tommy Loughran - 168
1924-04-19 Kid Norfolk - 172.75
1924-08-21 Tiger Flowers - 167
1924-09-03 Jimmy Slattery - 163.5
1924-09-17 Gene Tunney - 166
1925-03-27 Gene Tunney - 167.5
1925-07-02 Mickey Walker - 159
1926-02-03 Jimmy Delaney - 164
1926-02-26 Tiger Flowers - 159.5
1926-08-19 Tiger Flowers - 159

Out of 4 key fights at 160lb limit (where weight is known) he lost three and won only one fight (over welterweight Walker). And I heard stories that making middleweight limit for Walker fight hurt him somewhat. I'm certain that had he attempted to fight the above key fights while weighing below 160lb, it'd hurt him also, he needed energy for his style, and it would probably add up several more losses to his record.

[TBooze]

Are you completely retarded? He is 259-21-17, what are you looking at? Are you blind?

Nothing wrong with being considered 'retarded', indeed some of them people are simply amazing, far better than me.

You are making things up, the ref raised Greb's hand (the sign of a victor in pro boxing) that we know of 106 times.

[sweet_scientist]

Key fights?

1917-07-30 Jack Dillon - 165
1918-02-25 Mike O'Dowd - 155.5
1919-02-17 Battling Levinsky - 164.5
1919-05-08 Willie Meehan - 166
1922-03-13 Tommy Gibbons - 163.5
1922-05-23 Gene Tunney - 162.25
1923-01-15 Tommy Loughran - 168.25
1923-01-30 Tommy Loughran - 166
1923-10-11 Tommy Loughran - 168
1923-12-10 Gene Tunney - 171.5
1923-12-25 Tommy Loughran - 168
1924-04-19 Kid Norfolk - 172.75
1924-08-21 Tiger Flowers - 167
1924-09-03 Jimmy Slattery - 163.5
1924-09-17 Gene Tunney - 166
1925-03-27 Gene Tunney - 167.5
1925-07-02 Mickey Walker - 159
1926-02-03 Jimmy Delaney - 164
1926-02-26 Tiger Flowers - 159.5
1926-08-19 Tiger Flowers - 159

Out of 4 key fights at 160lb limit (where weight is known) he lost three and won only one fight (over welterweight Walker). And I heard stories that making middleweight limit for Walker fight hurt him somewhat. I'm certain that had he attempted to fight the above key fights while weighing below 160lb, it'd hurt him also, he needed energy for his style, and it would probably add up several more losses to his record.

How about fights with Al McCoy, Mike McTigue and Eddie McGoorty where he was a middleweight? And how about certain bouts with Jack Blackburn, George Chip, Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske, Mike Gibbons and Tommy Gibbons? Was he above the middleweight limit for ALL of those fights?

Sure, Greb had most of his important fights weighing more than 160, but saying all he pretty much did that was significant at 160 was to lose a bunch of times to Flowers and beat a welterweight I think sells him short.

[Senya13]

How are these three key fights?
Al McCoy -"Greb won every round..Never did he fight an easier opponent."
Mike McTigue - no weight for 2nd fight, the 1st, "It was a very easy win for Harry." and 1917-1918 weren't good years for McTigue, no good at all.
Eddie McGoorty - no weight listed, and he had not achieved a single meaningful win after his return.

If you have weights for those other fights, list them here. But, please, exclude the Jack Blackburn fight (also didn't win a single meaningful fight after his return to the ring and was coming off a W1-L7 series).

[sweet_scientist]

How are these three key fights?
Al McCoy -"Greb won every round..Never did he fight an easier opponent."
Well, how about crediting Greb for some of that? McCoy was on the slide, but Greb gave him a hell of a whooping.
Mike McTigue - no weight for 2nd fight, the 1st, "It was a very easy win for Harry." and 1917-1918 weren't good years for McTigue, no good at all.
Well, Greb beat him easy when he was up and he beat him easy when he was down.

Eddie McGoorty - no weight listed, and he had not achieved a single meaningful win after his return.
It was fought for the "service middleweight title". I'm assuming they had to make weight, but say they didn't... the report still says that it was a great fight and McGoorty put up plenty of opposition.


If you have weights for those other fights, list them here. But, please, exclude the Jack Blackburn fight (also didn't win a single meaningful fight after his return to the ring and was coming off a W1-L7 series).

I don't have weights for those fights, but I suspect some could have been under the middleweight limit.

E.g.

For the 1917-05-22 fight against George Chip he had weighed 155 and a half 3 days earlier against Jeff Smith.

The 1918-08-06 fight with Battling Levinsky came 10 days before the McGoorty fight, which was fought as I said for the "service middleweight title". Two weeks later he weighed 150 for the Billy Miske fight.

The 1918-03-04 fight against Jack Dillon came between bouts with Mike O'Dowd (where he weighed 155 1/2 and Mike McTigue where he weighed 160).

([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Senya13]

I'm sure 150 is a wrong weight, a typo. I don't have a local source fight report, but non-local would surely mention if there was a 24 pounds difference between the two, but it only mentions Miske heavyweight, Greb middleweight.
The point is even you find a couple more fights where he weighed under middleweight limit, I'm absolutely sure I could find weights for several more key fights where he weighed above 160lb (because in the 1920's Greb didn't train down to below 160lb unless it was a middleweight title fight).

[sweet_scientist]

I'm sure 150 is a wrong weight, a typo. I don't have a local source fight report, but non-local would surely mention if there was a 24 pounds difference between the two, but it only mentions Miske heavyweight, Greb middleweight.
The point is even you find a couple more fights where he weighed under middleweight limit, I'm absolutely sure I could find weights for several more key fights where he weighed above 160lb (because in the 1920's Greb didn't train down to below 160lb unless it was a middleweight title fight).

The 150 is probably more realistically 160. It would make more sense.

I don't doubt at all that some (probably most) of the key fights with unlisted weights would have been fought above the middleweight limit, but I also think a fair amount would be at 160 or so, give or take a pound or two. As such, Greb as a middleweight amounts to more than a perpetual loser to Tiger Flowers with one win over a welterweight.

[Senya13]

But if, let's say, 80 to 90% of his meaningful victories happened above middleweight limit, in light heavyweight division (at the time, super middle having been introduced only in 1980s), why should he be ranked as a great middleweight? He obviously felt himself better above 160lb, that was his normal weight for most fights in late 1910's and most of 1920's.

[sweet_scientist]

But if, let's say, 80 to 90% of his meaningful victories happened above middleweight limit, in light heavyweight division (at the time, super middle having been introduced only in 1980s), why should he be ranked as a great middleweight? He obviously felt himself better above 160lb, that was his normal weight for most fights in late 1910's and most of 1920's.

Fighting bigger men as he often was, it would have been silly for him to get down to 160 for those fights. When fighting bigger men he did feel comfortable often being mid 160's. The majority of his career defining fights did occur above 160 so it does make sense to rate him as a light heavy. I don't think its a massive stretch to rate him as a middleweight either though.

Take Henry Armstrong as another example. How many career defining fights did he have at featherweight? The majority occured at lightweight and welterweight true? Does that mean he can't rank as a featherweight (and at the top of the featherweight rankings)?

[Senya13]

Well, I guess my problem with ranking Greb at middleweight is that absolute majority of rankings put him at middleweight and usually in Top 5, while refusing a place at middleweight for RJJ, for example, claiming most of his meaningful fights had taken place above 160lb. There's double standard, allowing this to one fighter, and refusing a place there to the other, although the circumstances are almost identical.

[sweet_scientist]

Well, I guess my problem with ranking Greb at middleweight is that absolute majority of rankings put him at middleweight and usually in Top 5, while refusing a place at middleweight for RJJ, for example, claiming most of his meaningful fights had taken place above 160lb. There's double standard, allowing this to one fighter, and refusing a place there to the other, although the circumstances are almost identical.

Yeah I understand that. I'm all for giving Jones a high middleweight ranking myself, even if my positioning of him would take account of how he performed at heigher weights. Something always gnaws at me when I see Bernard Hopkins placed higher than him at middleweight. It's hard to accept. Jones beats him and beats everyone Hopkins beat any day of the week.

I rate Mayweather higher than Jose Luis Castillo at lightweight and and I think Castillo actually beat Floyd once. You can imagine how I feel about Hopkins being higher than Jones when Jones pretty much breezed past him. (Hopkins of course hadn't yet peaked, but I saw nothing in his peak that would suggest that he could get beyond an 8-4 with a two handed Jones).