View Full Version : Better Comp? Hopkins or RJJ?
Ayatollah
12-20-2007, 10:18 PM
What say you?
Ayatollah
12-20-2007, 10:26 PM
jones
You think Jones had better competition overall than Hopkins?
Amsterdam
12-20-2007, 10:35 PM
Jones, and by a FUCKING MILE.
BHOP just fought the better names but not necessary the better comp
brooklyn1550
12-20-2007, 10:46 PM
Roy Jones, Jr.
Amsterdam
12-20-2007, 10:47 PM
BHOP just fought the better names but not necessary the better comp
Hopkins has no prime, elite natural MW's or higher on his record as wins, case closed.
Hopkins has no prime, elite natural MW's or higher on his record as wins, case closed.
:good
Amsterdam
12-20-2007, 10:58 PM
Hopkins vs. Toney prime/prime is a toss up, I'll personally take Toney in a close UD, putting Hopkins on his ass in the process.
Hopkins wouldn't have unified LHW like Roy did, one of those guys would have beaten him in his quest.
Hopkins wouldn't have defeated Ruiz at HW.
Now, what Hopkins opponents defeat a prime Roy? None.
On top of it, Roy has a win over Hopkins. There is not a person around who can justify Hopkins' overall comp as superior to Jones and as prime fighters, they absolutely are not comparable within the 160-175 spectrum.
brooklyn1550
12-20-2007, 11:05 PM
Hopkins vs. Toney prime/prime is a toss up, I'll personally take Toney in a close UD, putting Hopkins on his ass in the process.
At 160 or 168? Because at 160, I would go with Hopkins by UD.
PH|LLA
12-21-2007, 12:02 AM
Hopkins pound for pound beats Toney head to head 8 times out of 10. And gets knocked down never. How can you say he gets knocked down? his chin is rock solid and its almost impossible to land flush on it.
KO Boxing
12-21-2007, 12:50 AM
Jones Jr.
jecxbox
12-21-2007, 12:53 AM
why must you start such an evil thread lol?
sues2nd
12-21-2007, 01:59 AM
Jones, and by a FUCKING MILE.
:-(
JAM Killer
12-21-2007, 02:11 AM
Tough one.
I will go with Hopkins.
Mankind
12-21-2007, 02:16 AM
Jones.
JediPimp007
12-21-2007, 06:52 AM
Hopkins vs. Toney prime/prime is a toss up, I'll personally take Toney in a close UD, putting Hopkins on his ass in the process.
Hopkins wouldn't have unified LHW like Roy did, one of those guys would have beaten him in his quest.
Hopkins wouldn't have defeated Ruiz at HW.
Now, what Hopkins opponents defeat a prime Roy? None.
On top of it, Roy has a win over Hopkins. There is not a person around who can justify Hopkins' overall comp as superior to Jones and as prime fighters, they absolutely are not comparable within the 160-175 spectrum.
totally agree, great post man :good
RJJ by a country mile, anybody that thinks otherwise is a clear spastic
Hopkins has fought midgets all his career. Trinidad, De La Hoya, Wright, pretty much all of his best wins. When he eventually fought fighters on an even playing field in that respect, he got his arse handed to him by the aforementioned RJJ, and got beat by a very very average fighter in Taylor
A win against Antonio fucking Tarver hardly pulls it back
Needs Joe Calzaghe
Viking Worrier
12-21-2007, 07:17 AM
Clearly Jones.
Some of you guys are way too influenced by the last few years in these two boxers careers.
ssabripo
12-21-2007, 08:53 AM
Hopkins has no prime, elite natural MW's or higher on his record as wins, case closed.
:happy
/thread
196osh
12-21-2007, 08:55 AM
Roy Jones Jr.
And to the guy compairing beating Virgil Hill at 175 to beating De La Hoya at 160? What are you thinking?
Oscar did not even beat Strum, and was a poor middleweight!
Weber
12-21-2007, 10:22 AM
This is fucking ridiculous. Jones is a top 10 ATG, Bernard would be lucky to get into top 50. Just because Jones beat his opposition easily, it doesn't mean that his opposition wasn't good/great.
kg0208
12-21-2007, 11:43 AM
It wasn't a comparison, just a list of opponents.
The thread topic doesn't ask about competition at any given weight. It merely asks about the level of competition. Oscar is rated much higher then Strumm.
The reason brits get into so many agruements, is because you bloody limeys can't read.
You have to rate the fighter's ability relative to their weight class, not just the name, when rating competition. Obviously you would need to consider DLH was fighting at a weight class where he had proven nothing.
Shaolin Box
12-21-2007, 11:48 AM
You have to rate the fighter's ability relative to their weight class, not just the name, when rating competition. Obviously you would need to consider DLH was fighting at a weight class where he had proven nothing.
:good Nice Avator!
kg0208
12-21-2007, 11:51 AM
:good Nice Avator!
Thanks:thumbsup
kg0208
12-21-2007, 12:00 PM
Not true.
In many of the fights with these "smaller" men such as Trinidad, Hopkins was the underdog.
In his fight with Tarver, Hopkins was the underdog. Many on this very site said he'd be KO'ed because Tarver was too good, too strong, and too large. :yep
Hopkins beat Tarver. Tarver KO'ed Jones...twice.
HOP beat Johnson. Johnson beat Jones.
DLH was a money fight.
I can't blame HOP for this. He deserved a big money fight.
As I said, Jones wins in this contest, but not by as wide a margin as some suggest.
Ok, no reason to quote smaller. They were certainly smaller. And it doesn't matter whether he was the underdog. That's simply because he wasn't well known, which has little to do with how good a fighter he is.
If you are rating the competition, you rate how good the fighter is at the time they fought them. Why add in other variables which have nothing to do with the fighters actual in ring ability. Jones wins the contest, and its not by a slim margin, nor by a wide one. He has fought overall better fighters, just not overall bigger names.
errsta
12-21-2007, 12:01 PM
Jones.
teeto
12-21-2007, 12:51 PM
I'll try and do this one , how I see it . My method will be to analyze the best (names) wins on each fighter's record
Hopkins
Winky Wright - not a top class win (Winky hadnt had a significnt wiin for ages and souldnt be fighting at that weight , but Hopkins' tactics were great)
Antonio Tarver - top class win at the time (moved up and beat 175 champ)
Jermaine Taylor - I thought B-Hop won the first one, but I wont let this hold much water as I said I would only count wins on the record and I understand a lot of people think Taylor deservd it
Howard Eastman - a good win against a good fighter who deserved a titleshot
Oscar DeLaHoya - this depends on the Sturm fight , i didnt watch it , but if Oscar deservd the win then this means he was a legit matchup at 160 for Hopkins , if Sturm was robbd then this win shouldnt mean 2 much
William Joppy - a good win
Felix Trinidad - Tito not in his best prime, but still a top win because of Trinidad's beating of Joppy @160
Syd Vanderpool, Simon Brown and Antwun Echols - all decent wins but not great because 160 not their best weights
Glen Johnson - better than the 3 above wins but not great for the same reason
Roy Jones jr.
Antonio Tarver - top class win (I think he won the first one because Tarver just tried to steal a lot of rounds late , but Jones was controling the rest of the rounds with the jab and footwork )
John Ruiz - a top class win , not because of the oponent (I actualy rated him for effectiveness ) but more of what he acomplished by the weight jump.
Clinton Woods - a good win (thats being very generous)
Julio Gonzales - a good win
Reggie Johnson - a decent win
Virgil Hill - good win at the time
Montell Griffin - good win
Mike McCallum - well past his prime
Vinny Pazienza - not good
James Toney - top class win
Bernard Hopkins - top class win
So, I think Jones has the better resume
kg0208
12-21-2007, 12:58 PM
I'll try and do this one , how I see it . My method will be to analyze the best (names) wins on each fighter's record
Hopkins
Winky Wright - not a top class win (Winky hadnt had a significnt wiin for ages and souldnt be fighting at that weight , but Hopkins' tactics were great)
Antonio Tarver - top class win at the time (moved up and beat 175 champ)
Jermaine Taylor - I thought B-Hop won the first one, but I wont let this hold much water as I said I would only count wins on the record and I understand a lot of people think Taylor deservd it
Howard Eastman - a good win against a good fighter who deserved a titleshot
Oscar DeLaHoya - this depends on the Sturm fight , i didnt watch it , but if Oscar deservd the win then this means he was a legit matchup at 160 for Hopkins , if Sturm was robbd then this win shouldnt mean 2 much
William Joppy - a good win
Felix Trinidad - Tito not in his best prime, but still a top win because of Trinidad's beating of Joppy @160
Syd Vanderpool, Simon Brown and Antwun Echols - all decent wins but not great because 160 not their best weights
Glen Johnson - better than the 3 above wins but not great for the same reason
Roy Jones jr.
Antonio Tarver - top class win (I think he won the first one because Tarver just tried to steal a lot of rounds late , but Jones was controling the rest of the rounds with the jab and footwork )
John Ruiz - a top class win , not because of the oponent (I actualy rated him for effectiveness ) but more of what he acomplished by the weight jump.
Clinton Woods - a good win (thats being very generous)
Julio Gonzales - a good win
Reggie Johnson - a decent win
Virgil Hill - good win at the time
Montell Griffin - good win
Mike McCallum - well past his prime
Vinny Pazienza - not good
James Toney - top class win
Bernard Hopkins - top class win
So, I think Jones has the better resume
I don't think it's generous to call the Woods win good, especially if the Gonzalez win was good. Woods has beaten Gonzalez 2 times and is a champion currently.
As for the DLH-Sturm fight. If you posted a poll here, 75% would say DLH lost that fight by at least 2 rounds, maybe more. It was that bad of a robbery. He was outlanded, outpunched, out everything.
Amsterdam
12-21-2007, 01:04 PM
Hopkins pound for pound beats Toney head to head 8 times out of 10. And gets knocked down never. How can you say he gets knocked down? his chin is rock solid and its almost impossible to land flush on it.
After re-watching Hopkins-Taylor 1 and seeing him buzzed by a Taylor right hand, it's changed my perspective on Hopkins' chin a little. I think he absolutely can be KD'd if penetrated and a prime Toney would penetrate him.
Symphenyceo
12-21-2007, 01:05 PM
rjj
PrideOfWales
12-21-2007, 01:05 PM
I'll make this brief. You can make a case for either of them if Hopkins fights Calzaghe.
Amsterdam
12-21-2007, 01:08 PM
:-(
Why are you shaking your head? The two guys' resume are not comparable in the slightest bit.
Does Hopkins have any wins at all over any prime, elite MW-LHW fighters? Case closed.
Add in Ruiz at HW and you have a mammoth leap, as Hopkins would have never been able to do that. Furthermore, nobody would count a DLH or Trinidad as anything on Jones' resume, they'd have found both against a MW-SMW as 'ridiculous', as they have always held Jones to a higher standard due to his athletic ability.
I think that Calzaghe and Hopkins have comparable resume's, I think Jones is far above both.
teeto
12-21-2007, 02:31 PM
I don't think it's generous to call the Woods win good, especially if the Gonzalez win was good. Woods has beaten Gonzalez 2 times and is a champion currently.
As for the DLH-Sturm fight. If you posted a poll here, 75% would say DLH lost that fight by at least 2 rounds, maybe more. It was that bad of a robbery. He was outlanded, outpunched, out everything.
I understand your point with Woods , and I knew someone would make that point before I posted my post . But my reason I said that about Woods is that I really dont rate Clinton Woods (I'm English aswell , I dont like patriotism when it comes to boxing) , I respect him as a fighter and I wont disrespect him , but I dont rate him well . He beat Gonzalez twice and he lebourd . I just liked the Gonzalez win for Jones a slight bit more (I know the Woods win is obviously better because of the Woods-Gonzalez bouts) just from a stylistic point of view.
After all , styles make fighta
kg0208
12-21-2007, 02:33 PM
I understand your point with Woods , and I knew someone would make that point before I posted my post . But my reason I said that about Woods is that I really dont rate Clinton Woods (I'm English aswell , I dont like patriotism when it comes to boxing) , I respect him as a fighter and I wont disrespect him , but I dont rate him well . He beat Gonzalez twice and he lebourd . I just liked the Gonzalez win for Jones a slight bit more (I know the Woods win is obviously better because of the Woods-Gonzalez bouts) just from a stylistic point of view.
After all , styles make fighta
Fair enough, I see your point. Remember though, at the time, Gonzalez was considered a bad fight. HE is the garbage man people are always referring to (sanitation worker, public servant, etc....there are two guys like this on Jones record, but posters don't know who they are most of the time, and exxaggerate).
teeto
12-21-2007, 02:36 PM
Fair enough, I see your point. Remember though, at the time, Gonzalez was considered a bad fight. HE is the garbage man people are always referring to (sanitation worker, public servant, etc....there are two guys like this on Jones record, but posters don't know who they are most of the time, and exxaggerate).
Who's the other ?
Gonzalez is actualy a better win for Woods than what it is for Jones I think !
When Woods beat him he was coming off the Michaczevski win wasnt he
kg0208
12-21-2007, 02:39 PM
Who's the other ?
Gonzalez is actualy a better win for Woods than what it is for Jones I think !
When Woods beat him he was coming off the Michaczevski win wasnt he
The other is Frazier, who was a horrible fight for Jones admittedly. When HBO did the Gonzalez fight for Jones, they mentioned he was a part time sanitation worker. They failed to mention he was rated in the top 10 by Ring, and simply hadn't had a big fight.
Woods beat Gonzalez a bit after then DM win. Erdai beat him first.
teeto
12-21-2007, 02:43 PM
The other is Frazier, who was a horrible fight for Jones admittedly. When HBO did the Gonzalez fight for Jones, they mentioned he was a part time sanitation worker. They failed to mention he was rated in the top 10 by Ring, and simply hadn't had a big fight.
Woods beat Gonzalez a bit after then DM win. Erdai beat him first.
O yeah, Erdei beat him then Gonzalez , losing my memory ! Stil , you get my point , a better win for Woods at the time than for Jones
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