Who ranks higher all time at 205lb?

[Dostoevsky]

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Wanderlei Silva
31-7-1
Pride Middleweight Champion for just under 6 years.
2003 Middleweight Grand Prix Champion

Holds notable victories over:
Guy Mezger
Dan Henderson
Kazushi Sakuraba (x3)
Hidehiko Yoshida (x2)
Yuki Kondo
Quinton Jackson (x2)
Kazuhiro Nakamura
Ricardo Arona
Kazuyuki Fujita

Has notable loses to:
Vitor Belfort
Tito Ortiz
Mark Hunt
Ricardo Arona
Mirko Filipovic
Dan Henderson

VS

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Chuck Liddell
20-5-0
UFC Light Heavyweight Champion for just over 2 years
4 title defenses

Holds notable victories over:
Jose Landi-Jons
Jeff Monson
Kevin Randleman
Guy Mezger
Murilo Bustamante
Vitor Belfort
Jeremy Horn
Alistair Overeem
Renato Sobral
Tito Ortiz (x2)
Randy Couture (x2)

Has notable loses too:
Quinton Jackson (x2)
Randy Couture
Keith Jardine
Jeremy Horn

=====================================

Who IS the greatest 205lb'er of all time? :think
Liddell or Silva?

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Well... let's wait a week and find out. Personally, I think that Couture at his best, when at 205 was the best out there... for that moment. Of course, based on accomplishments, we will wait until the 29th, and find out who is best out of Liddell and Silva.

[Dostoevsky]

Well this is a poll based on accomplishments.
Who would you favour now?

Does there fight on the 29th determine who is/was the greatest 205'er of their generation?

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Well this is a poll based on accomplishments.
Who would you favour now?

Does there fight on the 29th determine who is/was the greatest 205'er of their generation?
Well... IMO... Liddell has to rank higher at this point. Wanderlei has been beat a good bit of times, and hasn't came close to avenging his losses, for the most part. I also felt like Arona was robbed when they gave Silva the win over him. Couple that with the fact that up until his downfall against Rampage, Liddell had blown through everyone (including two guys who beat Silva (Ortiz & Belfort), avenged his losses to Horn and Couture (2x)... and Silva was stumbling a good bit on his throne.... I have to go for Liddell. Rampage has his number, but that doesn't take away from what he did. I know that Liddell also recently lost again to Jardine... but he seems to be on the downslide of his career. MMA progresses fast, and is rather harsh to those who are aging, and don't adjust their styles and learn more about their craft.

So... considering that both of them have big wins, and both of them have noticable losses... I do think that this head to head match-up should mean something as far as where they stand in their generation.

So, if I had to chose who should rank higher as far as "all-time" status at 205, I would have to go with Liddell. Wins over Couture (twice), Ortiz (twice), Babalu (twice), Randleman, Monson, Mezger, Overeem, ect...

[Dostoevsky]

I agree.
I also feel Liddell has beaten the better fighters too.

If Silva does beat Chuck, I would have to take that into consideration but Liddell has faced better comp throughout his career so I'd put them about even.

[amhlilhaus]

liddell, he beat couture which is impressive since randy turned around and won the heavyweight title again against a dangerous tough to beat giant. wanderleis best wins include sakuraba, a legend that's substantially smaller than he is.

[AJAX]

One thing I didn't like about Pride is that I found alot of guys padded their records against Jap fighters .....and in Japan that made them bigger then life......but of course I may be wrong.

[Koa]

You guys forget Silva's win steak?

Destructive victories over dangerous sub fighters like Sakuraba, destructive victories over Rampage? He seriously fucked Page up, like nobodies business. Legit win over Henderson is no small feat either..

Liddel is great too, his victories over Couture are nice as well. I think you guys give Couture a little too much credit.

[ufoalf]

Couture is on a high pedestal right now... its retarded.

[Dostoevsky]

Couture is on a high pedestal right now... its retarded.

Yeah......cause he totally doesn't deserve it.....:nut:nut:nut:nut

[Koa]

Its an American thing I guess. I think its pretty silly.. Randy is good, probably very good. But thats about it.

[Dostoevsky]

Probably?
He's an ATG and a HoF'er. One of the greatest.

[ufoalf]

Yeah......cause he totally doesn't deserve it.....:nut:nut:nut:nut

Not to where many people make him out to be. You're obviously one of them. People overrate him unfairly. Unfair to Randy himself. For your information he's my 2nd favorite HW of all time. But I tend to look at things from more objective point of view.

[Koa]

Probably?
He's an ATG and a HoF'er. One of the greatest.

Guy is legendary, easily an all time great, and easily a HoF'er. Randy is one of those fighters that is extremely tactical, has some supreme areas in the ground game and has found/ created his own niches..
Dirty Boxing, foot stomping tactics are awesome..

When he took Belfort to school standing up, I was in total awe of his ability to adapt specific game and strategy.. How he took Tito to school was purely poetic.. But, Randy has his limits as well. He can be out grappled by guys just as knowledgable as himself and be made to look quite ordinary. He certainly can be out struck.. There are fighters, matchups out there that are just horrible for him.. Fedor, Barnette included.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Guy is legendary, easily an all time great, and easily a HoF'er. Randy is one of those fighters that is extremely tactical, has some supreme areas in the ground game and has found/ created his own niches..
Dirty Boxing, foot stomping tactics are awesome..

When he took Belfort to school standing up, I was in total awe of his ability to adapt specific game and strategy.. How he took Tito to school was purely poetic.. But, Randy has his limits as well. He can be out grappled by guys just as knowledgable as himself and be made to look quite ordinary. He certainly can be out struck.. There are fighters, matchups out there that are just horrible for him.. Fedor, Barnette included.
I don't think that Fedor is a horrible match-up for Randy. Josh Barnett may be a tough match-up. Any top tier grappler who is naturally bigger than Randy is a tough match-up for him. Fedor isn't naturally bigger than Randy, and I would actually say that Couture is a bad match-up for Fedor, IN A CAGE. I would say that the advantage leans towards Fedor in a ring.

[Beebs]

Liddell has definatly got the better scalp collection of legit 205ers.

[Koa]

He's a little shorter than Ricco, about the same weight, and I would say stronger. Fedor is in no way a physically weak guy. I would argue he is at least as strong as Couture, if not stronger.. The most flexible heavy around, extremely light on his feet, and the most dynamic ground fighter in MMA.. Fedor is a walking contingency.

[RUSKULL]

Liddell has the better resumé easily. Silva's is good too, but not the same quality or quantity of quality.

Fedor vs. Couture would be awesome with the edge to Fedor IMO.

[Minotauro]

Silva his winning streak was amazing and he won a GP.

[sugarngold]

Well... IMO... Liddell has to rank higher at this point. Wanderlei has been beat a good bit of times, and hasn't came close to avenging his losses, for the most part. I also felt like Arona was robbed when they gave Silva the win over him. Couple that with the fact that up until his downfall against Rampage, Liddell had blown through everyone (including two guys who beat Silva (Ortiz & Belfort), avenged his losses to Horn and Couture (2x)... and Silva was stumbling a good bit on his throne.... I have to go for Liddell. Rampage has his number, but that doesn't take away from what he did. I know that Liddell also recently lost again to Jardine... but he seems to be on the downslide of his career. MMA progresses fast, and is rather harsh to those who are aging, and don't adjust their styles and learn more about their craft.

So... considering that both of them have big wins, and both of them have noticable losses... I do think that this head to head match-up should mean something as far as where they stand in their generation.

So, if I had to chose who should rank higher as far as "all-time" status at 205, I would have to go with Liddell. Wins over Couture (twice), Ortiz (twice), Babalu (twice), Randleman, Monson, Mezger, Overeem, ect...

I agree with this assesment as to why Liddell should be considered at a higher rank than Wanderlai at the moment. Let's not forget that basically the Pride middleweight division and the UFC light heavyweight division started at almost the same time after the Ortiz/Wanderlai fight. Basically, Pride built their middleweights around the guy who lost to the UFC champion. As impressive as Wanderlai's win streak was - it was all under the auspices of being second best after the Tito loss. Sad, but true.

[Koa]

Tito wasn't quite the shit either. Remember his loss to Frank?

You are right though.

Seems wrestling, gnp, and the basics of cage fighting continued to evolve in the UFC. Striking and dynamic ground fighting (utilizing submissions and gnp without the advantages of a cage) continued in pride.

Rules, also seemed 100% better in pride, as far as being penalized for stalling.. Card system.. Though I do love elbows, and headstomps, and knees to the head on the ground.

[Dostoevsky]

Fights in Pride were generally more exciting due to the stand ups and yellow cards that demanded action on the ground and favoured striking.

The yellow card system made fighters take chances because if they were content with just laying there they would have had a yellow and 10% purse reduction.

Pride favoured the striker
UFC favours the grappler

Obviously some good grapplers (Fedor) did well in Pride due to their well rounded skills but Pride was more strike orientated. (I think I saw Rampage-Henderson do more wrestling in their UFC match than their whole careers in Pride!)
Due to the cage, a lot less standups, elimination of knees/stomps/kicks to a grounded opponent the unified rules really help grapplers.

[scurlaruntings]

They were more exciting because of the rules.

As for who`s greater the honours go to Liddell.His resume is STACKED in comparison.Too many names and too many notable wins.Admittedly watching Liddell isnt exciting as watching a prime Wandy with his Muay Thai strikes but resume for resume Liddell is the real deal.

[sugarngold]

Tito wasn't quite the shit either. Remember his loss to Frank?

You are right though.

Seems wrestling, gnp, and the basics of cage fighting continued to evolve in the UFC. Striking and dynamic ground fighting (utilizing submissions and gnp without the advantages of a cage) continued in pride.

Rules, also seemed 100% better in pride, as far as being penalized for stalling.. Card system.. Though I do love elbows, and headstomps, and knees to the head on the ground.

That's a good point. At least Frank did retire from MMA for several years after his fight with Tito. Given that, Tito and Wanderlai become the next best thing that wasn't named Chuck Liddell. BUt, given the circumstances, this was competition from the two best active mma fighters in the world.

Chuck's victories over so many of the great fighters of his generation such as Randleman, Belfort, Ortiz, and Couture mark him as the best in his weight class.

I suppose Rampage has some of the same opportunitites to establish himself as the best of his era. He needs a few more wins against notable opponents to make it happen - but it should be fun to watch him try. Rampage/Couture, Rampage/Ortiz, Rampage/Silva are all makeable fights. Rampage/Griffin would be a barn burner as well. NOt that Forest Griffin is a great of his generation - but he is an exciting fighter to watch. He's the Arturo Gatti of the UFC.

I think the Pride rules made the fights better as well. You guys have all named the reasons. I always liked the ring better - mainly because it eliminated the ground-and-pound-against-the-cage tactic of the UFC - that slowed down a lot of their fights. I always thought it was a better display of technique to see the fighters free to move around the ring at all times. The warning cards were good as well. Fighters would have to fight harder to avoid losing ten percent of their purses. Rules-wise the Pride rules to allow head kicks and stomps made the fights that much more exciting. I definitely miss those head kicks and stomps. :verysad

Pride gave us some great great fights over the years. While the UFC may have had a heatlhy share of the world's best light heavyweights in the world, Pride was virtually home to the heavyweight division. I'll miss those days - but I'm glad there are new fights and match ups ahead of us.

Dana White should put on one more Pride show and then pull a Vince MacMahon by walking into the Pride ring and boasting that he bought out his competition. That would give me closure to what was once the glory of Pride.

In the words of Don King, "Viva, Pride!"

[Koa]

One thing he could have done was maintain an audience in Japan. This would accomplish a couple of things.. Maintain an asian audience, as well as a platform where he could do things that the sissy ass American rules wont allow. Like freak matches.. Who says men over 250 lbs are too big? Bullshit.

Head kicks and knees on the ground are some striker weapons that would even things out in a cage environment. Make fighters think twice before they go for a shoot that has a 50/50 chance of being stuffed.. Guys like Liddel would be a total beast if he were allowed to throw knees after a busted takedown attempt.. As it is now, guys can hold onto a leg and keep a takedown alive without much risk of being fucked the hell up for his mistake..

Make no mistake.. A stuffed takedown in a real fight usually means your at risk of getting your brain bashed by someones knee.. Its a realistic fighting element that gives UFC ground fighters another advantage over would be strikers.

Meh, starting to get me upset..

Anyhow. Silva's streak and victories over Page should mean a lot more. Victories over Sakuraba should mean something as well. That Liddel beat a bunch of grapplers, basically means he can really beat up grapplers. Doesn't mean shit about him being able to fight strikers.

[Beebs]

Anyhow. Silva's streak and victories over Page should mean a lot more. Victories over Sakuraba should mean something as well. That Liddel beat a bunch of grapplers, basically means he can really beat up grapplers. Doesn't mean shit about him being able to fight strikers.

Why is beating strikers inherently better? Most of the best 205ers in the world are grapplers, so of course a champion is going to beat alot of grapplers, they are the ones who earned their shots.

What is Sak if not a pure grappler? A 185lb one at that.

Plus name me a striker that Wanderlei beat that is better than the ones Chuck beat?

Mezger - Chuck did it better
Yuki Kondo - Really?
Henderson - Also lost to him

On Chucks resume you have
Mezger - matches Wandy
Suloev and Bustamonte - Both about the same level as Kondo
Overeem - Better striker than Henderson was in 2000 I would say.
Vitor - Beat Wand
Pele

Chuck Beat more strikers more impressively than Wand did if that is your criteria, which isn't a good criteria to begin with.

[ufoalf]

It's not exactly "inherently better" but I think it would be good to solidify his position if he beat good strikers. If he would've avanged Rampage I think it would've been totally different conversation. But after losing to Rampage and then to Jardine who are both strikers just makes you wonder.
As far as who is above I think Chuck Liddell takes this easily.

[Koa]

Why is beating strikers inherently better? Most of the best 205ers in the world are grapplers, so of course a champion is going to beat alot of grapplers, they are the ones who earned their shots.

What is Sak if not a pure grappler? A 185lb one at that.

Plus name me a striker that Wanderlei beat that is better than the ones Chuck beat?

Mezger - Chuck did it better
Yuki Kondo - Really?
Henderson - Also lost to him

On Chucks resume you have
Mezger - matches Wandy
Suloev and Bustamonte - Both about the same level as Kondo
Overeem - Better striker than Henderson was in 2000 I would say.
Vitor - Beat Wand
Pele

Chuck Beat more strikers more impressively than Wand did if that is your criteria, which isn't a good criteria to begin with.

Seem to forget he has a draw against Crocop, a fight where he traded with Crocop quite a bit.. No small accomplishment there.

He also tore Rampage a new asshole twice.. Page having showed Liddel is his bitch, sould mean somethng.. Rampage has quite a scalp list himself.. So a victory over Rampage should mean something.

[billyconn]

Not to where many people make him out to be. You're obviously one of them. People overrate him unfairly. Unfair to Randy himself. For your information he's my 2nd favorite HW of all time. But I tend to look at things from more objective point of view.

Well I beat a dude in highschool wrestling who beat Mark Kerr who beat Randy in wrestling.....:good that was a total non-sequitor, but I generally agree with your post. But Randy's two latest victories were pretty improbable, so that adds to his legend. I'd be curious to see him go at Fedor, but would more like to see Fedor v. Rampage at HW....

[Dostoevsky]

Well I beat a dude in highschool wrestling who beat Mark Kerr who beat Randy in wrestling.....:good that was a total non-sequitor, but I generally agree with your post. But Randy's two latest victories were pretty improbable, so that adds to his legend. I'd be curious to see him go at Fedor, but would more like to see Fedor v. Rampage at HW....

:huh

Thats just very random. Rampage will never fight at HW and certainly not against Fedor.

[billyconn]

:huh

Thats just very random. Rampage will never fight at HW and certainly not against Fedor.

Not really they both fought Matt Lindland who is a natural middleweight and Fedor is not a huge heavy weight by any stretch of the imagination They both fought Randleman as well. Rampage could be a solid 220 pounds and Fedor is like 230 so not too random at all.....People would buy that fight for sure....

[Koa]

Fedor would submit him within two rounds.. Rampage is susceptable to subs.

[billyconn]

Fedor would submit him within two rounds.. Rampage is susceptable to subs.

Fedor cuts easily see Lindland fight....

[Dostoevsky]

Fedor cuts easily see Lindland fight....

How is that relevant?

[billyconn]

How is that relevant?

MMA fights can be stopped on a bad cut can't they?

[Dostoevsky]

Yes but thats still rare. Fedor only been beat once on a cut and that was against a Japanese person in Japan in a tournament setting.
Against Nog it was an NC and that was an accidental clash of heads.

Basing your gameplan for Fedor hoping he cuts is not a good one.

[billyconn]

Yes but thats still rare. Fedor only been beat once on a cut and that was against a Japanese person in Japan in a tournament setting.
Against Nog it was an NC and that was an accidental clash of heads.

Basing your gameplan for Fedor hoping he cuts is not a good one.

I think Rampage gets the better of Fedor on their feet and if Fedor can't sub Rampage, Rampage wins. I don't think Fedor could knock Rampage out. It would be a very close fight.

[Dostoevsky]

Why couldn't Fedor sub rampage?

[billyconn]

Why couldn't Fedor sub rampage?

Of course he could, but I don't think he would.

[Dostoevsky]

Why not? Thats Fedor's forte and he goes for submissions in the vast majority of his fights.

[Dostoevsky]

And the WINNER by KO in the 1st round!

Chuck 'The Icemann' Liddell

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[sugarngold]

And the WINNER by KO in the 1st round!

Chuck 'The Icemann' Liddell

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I definitely agree with this as it pertains to both fighters at present - but the future is still wide open for Rampage. He could replace Chuck if he continues to make the right fights.