did mike tyson ever punch out of a clinch or push opponent back?

[anon1]

1. except the ruddock and maybe the bruno fights - give me 3 examples where tyson pushed back an opponent during a clinch.

2. even more difficult, except the green fight and holy round 5, find 3 examples where tyson punched his way out of the clinch rather than wait for the ref to break them.

i tried and i can't. i'm not bashing tyson - he makes my top 10. just an observation.

[anon1]

that observation being.........?

that out of ~60 fights, during clinches, he never pushed back an opponent or punched his way out. he did 0. imo - that's remarkable.

[IntentionalButt]

that observation being.........?

think this grew out of my thread. :yep

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[anon1]

Are you saying that's a good thing or bad thing or neither?

bad thing. a clinch is when a short armed fighter like him should do a lot of damage. this bad habit also allowed opponents to neutralize him e.g. smith, holy, lewis. if he was active on the inside - he'd have done better.

1. he's usually smaller than his opponents and so it's not his prerogative to do the pushing about

he's still a strong guy. and he'd still want the opponent cornered. it'd be to his advantage. i poorly worded - instead of pushing back - has tyson ever dominated a clinch. no. it is to his great disadvantage to do NOTHING (my observation) and let someone like holyfield position him as he wants. it IS tyson's prerogative to do something when being pushed around by holy. he IS capable of it but chooses not to, god knows why.

3. clinching allows him to deplo his favored tactics such as attempting to break opponents arm, ear biting, etc.

pretty useless and dumb tactics. punching is a much better idea :good

[burger]

Tyson vs Frank Bruno II

[divac]

1. except the ruddock and maybe the bruno fights - give me 3 examples where tyson pushed back an opponent during a clinch.

2. even more difficult, except the green fight and holy round 5, find 3 examples where tyson punched his way out of the clinch rather than wait for the ref to break them.

i tried and i can't. i'm not bashing tyson - he makes my top 10. just an observation.

I've said the same thing since before Mike Tyson fought Evander Holyfield.

You would think that a short fighter like Tyson would salivate at the thought of being chest to chest against a fighter on the inside.
....but you look at just about every Tyson fight, and for the most part, he does his damage while he is charging his way in.....once he's in, whether he landed his shots coming in or did'nt.....he wants to find his way back out, but he does'nt do it by punching himself out or even staying on the inside to work there.

The one combination that worked well for Tyson while on the inside was the right hand hook to the body, right uppercut to the head combination.
But once a fighter gets hit with that combination and still remains upright, he's damn well is going to make sure that he does'nt get hit with that same combo again, as Evander Holyfield made sure of when Tyson landed that combination on him in round 5 of there first fight.

Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson was not. Tyson just was'nt a busy fighter on the inside.....its like he needed and wanted more room to punch!

[anon1]

right hand hook to the body, right uppercut to the head combination.
But once a fighter gets hit with that combination and still remains upright, he's damn well is going to make sure that he does'nt get hit with that same combo again, as Evander Holyfield made sure of when Tyson landed that combination on him in round 5 of there first fight.
in all fairness - that is a very tough combo to avoid, EVEN if you know it is coming. it is extremely fast for one, and second, body shots are paralyzing, leaving you vulnerable for the uppercut. this case had more to do with mike tyson not being very smart and not throwing body shots for most of the fight but just head hunting. i have not seen mike tyson's body shot attempts be neutralized. whenever tyson threw body shots or right hand leads at holyfield - he had high success rate. too bad these weapons were used few and far in between.

[mrbassie]

he did in the 80's. I personally think Tyson was a better fighter before he won the title, as soon as he'd done that I think he felt he'd fulfilled his obligation to D'amato and it was time for him to have some fun. Inevitably his skills began to deteriorate immediately. Of course, you could argue that he was simply facing better competition

[anon1]

he did in the 80's.

do provide examples if you can :good

[divac]

in all fairness - that is a very tough combo to avoid, EVEN if you know it is coming. it is extremely fast for one, and second, body shots are paralyzing, leaving you vulnerable for the uppercut. this case had more to do with mike tyson not being very smart and not throwing body shots for most of the fight but just head hunting. i have not seen mike tyson's body shot attempts be neutralized. whenever tyson threw body shots or right hand leads at holyfield - he had high success rate. too bad these weapons were used few and far in between.

It is a tough combo to avoid when you're not expecting the same hand to be used as an uppercut right after a right hand has been thrown to the body.
......but as you can see, the 5th round was the only time Holyfield got caught with that uppecut.
Smart fighters like Holyfield make sure not to get caught with that same type of bone jarring combination twice.

After getting hit with that combo, Holyfield made sure to close distance everytime that Tyson attempted to go to the body.
Holyfield would smother Tyson's shots coming in.
Going into the fight most people thought that it was Tyson who could do harm to Holyfield on the inside, but what Holyfied did was expose Tyson's weakness on the inside.
Holyfield liked it there on the inside vs Tyson, because he did'nt find it that difficult to tie Tyson's arms up and walk him down.

How weak is Tyson's game on the inside? I cant remember a single instance that Tyson initiated a punching exchange wanting to break himself out of a clinch as Holyfield walked Tyson down and lead Mike anywhere Holyfield wanted Tyson to be at.

.....it was Holyfield who would walk Tyson down, and when possible, he'd manuever Tyson and angle himself to fight out of the clinch without much return fire by Tyson.
Past the second half of the fight, it was just ridiculous how easy Holyfield was manuevering Tyson in that way.


You want further proof????
.....with a chance to redeem himself, and already knowing how Holyfield handled him on the inside......
......for anybody to say Holyfield's domination on the inside was a fluke that caught Tyson off guard.
Holyfield duplicates it in the rematch, and instead of Tyson wanting to correct his mistakes from the first fight by trying to punch on the inside, you see him instead grabbing Holyfield's arm and trying to break it.
......and then later reverting to biteing.


Holyfield was headbutting is the excuse, but its all bullshit excuses.
Tyson was frustrated that the fight was being fought on the inside on Holyfield's terms, and Tyson could'nt let his hands flow to throw combinations from that distance.

There is skill involved in taking your punching skills to the inside.
Mike Tyson just was'nt very good at it!

[DamonD]

Ok give me an example of Lennox Lewis getting up from a knockdown.
First McCall fight.
Next?

[divac]

First McCall fight.
Next?

:lol: :lol: :lol: Technically he did get up, did'nt he? :D

Unfortunately for Lewis, he tripped over his own toes when the ref was surveying if he was OK!:yep

[anon1]

It is a tough combo to avoid when you're not expecting the same hand to be used as an uppercut right after a right hand has been thrown to the body.
......but as you can see, the 5th round was the only time Holyfield got caught with that uppecut.
Smart fighters like Holyfield make sure not to get caught with that same type of bone jarring combination twice.

After getting hit with that combo, Holyfield made sure to close distance everytime that Tyson attempted to go to the body.
Holyfield would smother Tyson's shots coming in.
Going into the fight most people thought that it was Tyson who could do harm to Holyfield on the inside, but what Holyfied did was expose Tyson's weakness on the inside.
Holyfield liked it there on the inside vs Tyson, because he did'nt find it that difficult to tie Tyson's arms up and walk him down.

How weak is Tyson's game on the inside? I cant remember a single instance that Tyson initiated a punching exchange wanting to break himself out of a clinch as Holyfield walked Tyson down and lead Mike anywhere Holyfield wanted Tyson to be at.

.....it was Holyfield who would walk Tyson down, and when possible, he'd manuever Tyson and angle himself to fight out of the clinch without much return fire by Tyson.
Past the second half of the fight, it was just ridiculous how easy Holyfield was manuevering Tyson in that way.


You want further proof????
.....with a chance to redeem himself, and already knowing how Holyfield handled him on the inside......
......for anybody to say Holyfield's domination on the inside was a fluke that caught Tyson off guard.
Holyfield duplicates it in the rematch, and instead of Tyson wanting to correct his mistakes from the first fight by trying to punch on the inside, you see him instead grabbing Holyfield's arm and trying to break it.
......and then later reverting to biteing.


Holyfield was headbutting is the excuse, but its all bullshit excuses.
Tyson was frustrated that the fight was being fought on the inside on Holyfield's terms, and Tyson could'nt let his hands flow to throw combinations from that distance.

There is skill involved in taking your punching skills to the inside.
Mike Tyson just was'nt very good at it!

you made a good post but i regret you typed such a long post in response to something i already agreed with. i must not have been clear. of course tyson was god awful on the inside, and holyfield was his daddy on the inside! what i am saying though - and this is in direct disagreement - is that holyfield would have BEEN very vulnerable to mike tyson's body shots. it is NOT that holyfield did something (you say smother) to neutralize tyson throwing a BODY shot - it is that tyson himself was stupid and did NOT throw body shots but opted for head hunting. and yes, smothering tyson greatly NEUTRALIZED shots to the HEAD but same would be true for body shots had tyson attempted it. i ask you this: can you give 3 examples where tyson attempted a shot to the body and holyfield neutralized it, during those 15 rounds? i dare to say you'll struggle.

evander holyfield had no answer for mike tyson's awesome STRAIGHT right hand lead. 34 year old holy looks like he is in slow motion, like he is frozen (i think it was around the first minue of the fight- common camera angle is behind tyson's head looking at holy). damond had earlier mentioned an interview where holy explains why tyson got him so good in the opening - he was expecting left hooks. for whatever reason, tyson abandons the right after round 1 and starts throwing loopy, predictable left hooks - grossly misusing his hook in place of the right. i never understood this. round 5 tyson throws BODY shots (that is the ONLY round i recall where tyson threw body shots) and holy is in pain. it wasn't just that one combination that got holy - it was others. and those were tough to avoid because tyson threw 3-4 punch combinations with blinding speed (the only 3-4 punch combination from him in the whole series). had tyson chosen to keep this OBVIOUS strategy (too bad he didn,t could have should have no one cares - holy whipped his ass - end of story - i just comment this on his behalf), holyfiedl would have struggled to give an answer!

holyfield whipped tyson because tyson was awful on the inside. tyson had poor strategy. he could have should have (1) punched to body, preferably in combinatons, when clinched by holyfield on the inside. go after the head later (2) used the right hand lead much more often rather than be one armed. these two things. tyson was an awful inside fighter because he ignored #1 and he just plain didn't do anything. i also guarantee you that had tyson done #1 with douglas - he' have ko'd douglas, faced holyfield in 1992 (and lost). i don't know exactly what the point of this post was but i wanted to share an opinion with you. i know you'v been a longtime fan of holy.

[barneyrub]

Ok give me an example of Lennox Lewis getting up from a knockdown.He was up at 6 against McCall. The ref didnt give him a full count. If he had had the same refs who gave Holfield 17 seconds to recover against Bowe or who allowed Holmes to carry on in worse condition against Shavers and Snipes then he wouldnt have been stopped at that moment.

[eltorrente]

He was up at 6 against McCall. The ref didnt give him a full count. If he had had the same refs who gave Holfield 17 seconds to recover against Bowe or who allowed Holmes to carry on in worse condition against Shavers and Snipes then he wouldnt have been stopped at that moment.

Dude he was out on his feet and it was definetely a good stoppage. He would have gotten hurt if it had been allowed to continue.

[divac]

you made a good post but i regret you typed such a long post in response to something i already agreed with. i must not have been clear. of course tyson was god awful on the inside, and holyfield was his daddy on the inside! what i am saying though - and this is in direct disagreement - is that holyfield would have BEEN very vulnerable to mike tyson's body shots. it is NOT that holyfield did something (you say smother) to neutralize tyson throwing a BODY shot - it is that tyson himself was stupid and did NOT throw body shots but opted for head hunting. and yes, smothering tyson greatly NEUTRALIZED shots to the HEAD but same would be true for body shots had tyson attempted it. i ask you this: can you give 3 examples where tyson attempted a shot to the body and holyfield neutralized it, during those 15 rounds? i dare to say you'll struggle.

evander holyfield had no answer for mike tyson's awesome STRAIGHT right hand lead. 34 year old holy looks like he is in slow motion, like he is frozen (i think it was around the first minue of the fight- common camera angle is behind tyson's head looking at holy). damond had earlier mentioned an interview where holy explains why tyson got him so good in the opening - he was expecting left hooks. for whatever reason, tyson abandons the right after round 1 and starts throwing loopy, predictable left hooks - grossly misusing his hook in place of the right. i never understood this. round 5 tyson throws BODY shots (that is the ONLY round i recall where tyson threw body shots) and holy is in pain. it wasn't just that one combination that got holy - it was others. and those were tough to avoid because tyson threw 3-4 punch combinations with blinding speed (the only 3-4 punch combination from him in the whole series). had tyson chosen to keep this OBVIOUS strategy (too bad he didn,t could have should have no one cares - holy whipped his ass - end of story - i just comment this on his behalf), holyfiedl would have struggled to give an answer!

holyfield whipped tyson because tyson was awful on the inside. tyson had poor strategy. he could have should have (1) punched to body, preferably in combinatons, when clinched by holyfield on the inside. go after the head later (2) used the right hand lead much more often rather than be one armed. these two things. tyson was an awful inside fighter because he ignored #1 and he just plain didn't do anything. i also guarantee you that had tyson done #1 with douglas - he' have ko'd douglas, faced holyfield in 1992 (and lost). i don't know exactly what the point of this post was but i wanted to share an opinion with you. i know you'v been a longtime fan of holy.


I enjoyed writing the post, you might have already agreed with alot of it, but others can still be educated by the myth that Tyson was a good infighter.;)

Your point on Tyson needing and should have thrown more bodyshots?Throwing body shots to good effect is not as easy as it looks. It requires one to be in good position to throw them.
.....and as we've both agreed, Tyson was'nt very good in letting his hands free on the inside.
I think alot of it has to do with foot positioning, I'd often times find Tyson's feet squared up and parralel to one another.
Not just Holyfield, but others have been able to body up Tyson and push him back because of the way Tyson positions his feet.

When you parrallel you feet square like Tyson often did, you cant get much leverage to punch.

When Tyson had sucess out of that stance is when fighters tried to mantain distance. When they came in to punch at Tyson, that stance better abled Tyson to slide his head from side to side (Tyson's famous headmovement)
The leverage to punch for Tyson came from coming out of a slight crouch whenever Tyson moved his head to one side.
.....but when the opponent chose to not mantain distance, and instead close ground, it not only took away Tyson's headmovement, but it neatralized the way Tyson wanted to leverage himself to punch.

I could'nt give you the examples where Holyfield neutralized Tyson's body shots you ask of me as I dont have the fight handy with me.



Why did'nt Tyson throw more right hands?
I mean really think about it......You can throw hooks and miss, and still be in decent enough position to defend....but when you throw a straight right hand and miss, your hold right side becomes vulnerable for a counter shot.
Apparently, Holyfield's jab was enough to offset Tyson from thowing right hand leads, but more so, you make a mistake with Holyfield trying to land right hand leads, and you're going to find yourself on the seat of your pant courtesy of an Evander Holyfield left hook counter.
I've heard alot of fighters mention that Holyfield could crack with that left hook.

Because he caught Evander with a right hand to open the fight, means that thats the punch that will work for him all night???
Holyfield was just too good a fighter to get caught with the same punch over and over.
To beat him, you have to make adjustments throughout the fight....adjustments that because of Tyson's awesome punching effect on most, he rarely had to turn to.

Again, all these things that Tyson is blamed for not doing comes courtesy of Holyfield just outmanevering him by both hand and foot.

.....and with Douglas, for goodness sake, what the hell could Tyson really do? I just Marvel at the way Douglas went about his business against Tyson, he could'nt miss with the jab....and when he did, he closed the distance quickly as Holyfield did, and pushed off hard throwing Tyson off balance so that he (Douglas could be back in position to throw the jab.
Thats the thing with Tyson, he did'nt fight with the same fire and passion on the inside that he did while on his way in.....so anytime you got yourself in a little bit of trouble vs Tyson, all you had to do as a fighter was close distance.

Douglas did everything crisp, hard, and sharp.....the moment he laxed for one moment and started to get a little lazy with his shots, he found himself on the seat of his pants!:lol:

Others dont agree with me, but I just dont see a damn thing that Tyson could have done that would have helped him vs Douglas.
Douglas was just ON, that eerie night in Tokyo, and in every facet of the game!

Could Tyson have done a few things different against Holyfield to make the fights more competitive? Of course theoretically he could have.....but against a greatfighter and counterpuncher like Evander Holyfield, that requires adjustments to be made on the whim.
I have no doubt that Tyson sensed he hurt Holyfield with some body shots in the 5th round. Those hurtful body shots lead to Tyson landing that uppercut that had Holyfield holding on.
You dont think that Tyson wanted and knew he had to do more of that?

Of course he did, but the bottom line is that one fighter was able to make the adjustments necessary to avoid such shots, and the other could'nt keep with the same level of adjustments.

Of course you already know it because you alluded to it, but for the benefit of others who dont....bottom line is the better fighter won!

[hobgoblin]

Fight was stopped! Lewis never OFFICIALLY got up from a KD

:lol:

you need a ref to decide if you're officially up or not? :think

[Claypole]

Fight was stopped! Lewis never OFFICIALLY got up from a KD, so stop trying to be smart dickheadhe was only answering your question! Correctly as well!