Atg With Thinnest Resume Ever? Joe C

[RafaelGonzal]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?

[MotorCityCobra]

Marcel Cerdan.

Joe's best win is CLEARLY Kessler, a MUCH better fighter than Lacy.

[Punisher33]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?




This has been done before, the Calzaghe nut huggers are going to the same thing as they usually do, he beat Eubanks and then beat guys like Lacy and Kessler who are both pretty unproven, we have already come to find that out after watching Lacey win barely against guys he was supposed to destroy.

Calzaghe is good fighter, but he has never beat a great, so he should never be considered a great IMO. Calzaghe missed the boat, as one poster put it, he never faced the great fighters of his generation like Hopkins or Jones.

[IntentionalButt]

fuck resume.

[JAM Killer]

Calzaghe is not an all time Great.

[sjc]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver.

:lol::lol::lol:

Well that's one way to put it.

Another way would be that Hopkins deliberately leapfrogged SMW division because he knew he would have been in for the toughest night of his career.

Take your pick.

[Larson]

Who said Joe Calz is ATG?

[brownpimp88]

marcel cerdan and carlos zarate, both have very weak resumes and get ranked in the ring magazine's top 80 of all times. Well then again, i'm sure they will be replaced by mayweather, pacquiao, morales, etc.

Cerdan, graziano and zale were not legit middleweight champs IMO. The entire murderers row were denied shots at the belt. Burley, cocoa kid and holman williams would have ruled the division in the 40s if it wasnt for bullshit politics.

[markbrooklyn]

:lol::lol::lol:

Well that's one way to put it.

Another way would be that Hopkins deliberately leapfrogged SMW division because he knew he would have been in for the toughest night of his career.

Take your pick.

Oh yea sure, Calzaghe was gonna be tougher then moving up 2 weight classes to take on the best light heavy weight and the guy who knocked out roy jones jr and beat him twice? :huh

[markbrooklyn]

I don't believe Calzaghe is an ATG at all. He's a good fighter with a thin resume. He's happened to peak when most of the great fighters that were in his division are either washed up or not even in that division anymore. He's never beaten a great fighter so I don't know why he's gettin so much hype.

[Caliboxing]

Calzaghe isn't ATG yet.

[chimba]

Calzaghe is only getting hype here in ESB...from certain posters...they know who they are..

calm down folks...in the real world...Not many have heard of the guy outsode of the UK

[klion22]

I agree. This Joe C dude is so overrated by these Brits that it almost makes you laugh.

[MotorCityCobra]

Oh yea sure, Calzaghe was gonna be tougher then moving up 2 weight classes to take on the best light heavy weight and the guy who knocked out roy jones jr and beat him twice? :huhAbso-fuckin-lutely. You're the only guy on here that will say Tarver is better than Calzaghe.

Tarver beating a shot Jones is no big deal to me. A prime Jones destroys him.

Calzaghe is not an ATG boxer on anything but head to head ability, but based on that, he ranks pretty damn high.

[brooklyn1550]

In terms of overall talent and overall ability, Joe Calzaghe is one of the best fighters of all time.

In terms of resume and accomplishments, he's the best super middleweight ever, and an all time great (but not yet at the level of the all time legends)

[MotorCityCobra]

In terms of overall talent and overall ability, Joe Calzaghe is one of the best fighters of all time.

In terms of resume and accomplishments, he's the best super middleweight ever, and an all time great (but not yet at the level of the all time legends)Well in terms of resume, they are right, he is nowhere near ATG status, but his 22 defenses are pretty amazing on the accomplishments side.

[sjc]

Oh yea sure, Calzaghe was gonna be tougher then moving up 2 weight classes to take on the best light heavy weight and the guy who knocked out roy jones jr and beat him twice? :huh

Believe what you want, I happen to believe along with many others that Bernard has never wanted any piece of Joe.

[sjc]

And personally I don't blame BHop at all, in the slightest.

Joe is a nightmare for any 168 - 175.

Bernard steered well clear... and was wise to.

[RafaelGonzal]

:lol::lol::lol:

Well that's one way to put it.

Another way would be that Hopkins deliberately leapfrogged SMW division because he knew he would have been in for the toughest night of his career.

Take your pick.

Joe C carried such little weight that a fight with Tarver was by a wide margin the bigger payday.

[RafaelGonzal]

Well in terms of resume, they are right, he is nowhere near ATG status, but his 22 defenses are pretty amazing on the accomplishments side.

on the level of that scrub from Germany Ottke I believe his name is

[MotorCityCobra]

on the level of that scrub from Germany Ottke I believe his name isNah, Ottke got a load of complete BS decisions and never beat someone as good as Kessler in reality.

[Jason997]

He is really top notch. Another big win and he can retire with his legacy secure.
Not necessarily an ATG, but certainly one of the greats of his 10-12 year prime era.

- Jason

[RafaelGonzal]

Nah, Ottke got a load of complete BS decisions and never beat someone as good as Kessler in reality.

just how good Kessler is remins to be seen
Ottke made 21 defenses or something like that Im sure if you look hard enough you will find someone comparable to Kessler how about Brewer?

[RafaelGonzal]

on the level of that scrub from Germany Ottke I believe his name is


Ottke made 21 defenses of his title so thats how little respect I have for what Joe C has done. No big deal

[walk with me]

Calzaghe is not an all time Great.
A+

[sean]

just how good Kessler is remins to be seen
Ottke made 21 defenses or something like that Im sure if you look hard enough you will find someone comparable to Kessler how about Brewer?

your embarrising yourself.

if you do not know who fighters were and what they were cabable of ,how do you compare who they are or judge them head to head on there status or abilties.?

[sean]

Ottke made 21 defenses of his title so thats how little respect I have for what Joe C has done. No big deal


tell me in your own words how you rated glen johnson`s performance against ottke when they fought.

IMO you have not seen a single ottke fight and are talking out your arse giving the usual spiel.

[errsta]

Calzaghe and Ottke

[IrnBruMan]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?






So what if he never fought RJJ or Toney? It can just as easily be said RJJ and Toney never fought Calzaghe :deal

Hopkins wanted no part of Calzaghe, which is why he skipped SMW to fight milk dud. Tarver is only known because he KOd a severely past-his-best RJJ. Hopkins has been forced into a corner and has to accept a fight with Calzaghe or look like a chicken :deal

Look at what Lacy was doing before Calzaghe demolished him :deal The Lacy you saw in the Manfredo fight is a man devoid of confidence, because Calzaghe destroyed him both metally and physically.

Kessler is the #2 SMW in the world today :deal

You don't know what you're talking about :deal

[sean]

here we have a case yet again of many americans adopting the attitude that anyone outside america`s backyard who is not shown on american tv is a phoney.


all that proves to me is those that think in such a way know fuck all whatsoever about boxing .

if you cannot judge what calzaghe brings to the table in terms of abilty because he is a european fighting out of europe because you have a closed mind or even worse do not have a clue about what you see with your own eyes should stick to replays of gatti v ward only .

brooklyn1550 summed it up best.

[IrnBruMan]

here we have a case yet again of many americans adopting the attitude that anyone outside america`s backyard who is not shown on american tv is a phoney.


all that proves to me is those that think in such a way know fuck all whatsoever about boxing .

if you cannot judge what calzaghe brings to the table in terms of abilty because he is a european fighting out of europe because you have a closed mind or even worse do not have a clue about what you see with your own eyes should stick to replays of gatti v ward only .

brooklyn1550 summed it up best.

How anyone cannot see Calzaghe's brilliance is beyond me - the man is a genius in the ring and a superb athlete.

[sean]

i would not call what calzaghe does brilliance.

he does have flaws and a lot of times does not punch correctly.

but take calzaghe as a total package

handspeed/footspeed/inside fighter/outside fighter/chin/heart/defense/offense/prdigous conditioning and workrate/abilty to see what is front of him and adapt/angles/head movement/unorthodox punches and huge repotoire

and then his resume and his performance levels in his big fights in which he always always brings his A game over a 10 year period.

like him or loathe him in equal measure but do not dismiss him as a run of the mill world champ.

[Boro chris]

Oh yea sure, Calzaghe was gonna be tougher then moving up 2 weight classes to take on the best light heavy weight and the guy who knocked out roy jones jr and beat him twice? :huh

Calzaghe is a whole level better than Tarver, he'd give a much, much tougher fight than Tarver could even dream of mustering.
Before you call me a nuthugger I dont believe Calzaghe is an atg, his resume is too weak at the moment. Anyway I hate the term, I'd much rather appreciate a fighter for what he is and how he fights rather than what his legacy is.

[Boro chris]

i would not call what calzaghe does brilliance.

he does have flaws and a lot of times does not punch correctly.

but take calzaghe as a total package

handspeed/footspeed/inside fighter/outside fighter/chin/heart/defense/offense/prdigous conditioning and workrate/abilty to see what is front of him and adapt/angles/head movement/unorthodox punches and huge repotoire

and then his resume and his performance levels in his big fights in which he always always brings his A game over a 10 year period.

like him or loathe him in equal measure but do not dismiss him as a run of the mill world champ.

Dont mean to sound like a creep but thats a perfect summary of Calzaghe. Does everything extremely well (Except one punch ko power) but nothing brilliantly.

[FRKO]

Good lord. Same old shit, different day.

Calzaghe is fucking awesome. Even Floyd will tell you that.

[TFFP]

This is not a sensible thread

I will let you off, since it's Xmas

[RafaelGonzal]

your embarrising yourself.

if you do not know who fighters were and what they were cabable of ,how do you compare who they are or judge them head to head on there status or abilties.?

The point Im trying to make is that with so many belts out there per weight class we have paper Champions. These paper Champs put the belts on ice and proceed to Take few if any challenges. Over time they amass a great deal of title defenses and get a an inflated reputation. These fighters fight at home and rarely leave in search of challenges or quality fights. Joe C is a lot like Ottke in this regard.

[TFFP]

The point Im trying to make is that with so many belts out there per weight class we have paper Champions. These paper Champs put the belts on ice and proceed to Take few if any challenges. Over time they amass a great deal of title defenses and get a an inflated reputation. These fighters fight at home and rarely leave in search of challenges or quality fights. Joe C is a lot like Ottke in this regard.
What has fighting at home got to do with anything? Joe has never got gift decisions like Sven fucking Ottke, so don't even go there

All the American fighters fight at home as well. We don't deride them for doing so

Resume is one thing, talking about fighting at home is a red herring

[Smazz20]

The point Im trying to make is that with so many belts out there per weight class we have paper Champions. These paper Champs put the belts on ice and proceed to Take few if any challenges. Over time they amass a great deal of title defenses and get a an inflated reputation. These fighters fight at home and rarely leave in search of challenges or quality fights. Joe C is a lot like Ottke in this regard.


By saying "fighting at home" you really mean "ah well, he's no good, coz he's never fought in America", true?

[sean]

The point Im trying to make is that with so many belts out there per weight class we have paper Champions. These paper Champs put the belts on ice and proceed to Take few if any challenges. Over time they amass a great deal of title defenses and get a an inflated reputation. These fighters fight at home and rarely leave in search of challenges or quality fights. Joe C is a lot like Ottke in this regard.

but its not about reputation is it.

its about what you recognise with your own eyes and experience watching boxing and fighters over a long period of time that should tell you what fighters are inflated and what fighters are the real deal.

calzaghe like say hagler at 160 has been a career 168 fighter and simply put there was not a single hopkins opponent or rival champ or fighter that went through the middleweight division and then stepped up to 168 in the last 10 years of the 168 division who did fuck all

only hopkins a career middleweight brought anything to the table moneywise from 160 in the last 10 years who might have stepped up a weightclass and he did not.

none of the light middles like trinidad/odlh were big enough to ever compete at 168 and hence they retired or went back down to 154 even 147.

[TFFP]

but its not about reputation is it.

its about what you recognise with your own eyes and experience watching boxing and fighters over a long period of time that should tell you what fighters are inflated and what fighters are the real deal.

calzaghe like say hagler at 160 has been a career 168 fighter and simply put there was not a single hopkins opponent or rival champ or fighter that went through the middleweight division and then stepped up to 168 in the last 10 years of the 168 division who did fuck all

only hopkins a career middleweight brought anything to the table moneywise from 160 in the last 10 years who might have stepped up a weightclass and he did not.

none of the light middles like trinidad/odlh were big enough to ever compete at 168 and hence they retired or went back down to 154 even 147. The funny thing is, if De La Hoya and/or Trinidad had got their asses up to 168 and taken the inevitable beating, Joe would get far more respect. It wouldn't actually mean anything due to size difference, but because they are 'names' the Americans would actually take notice

Joe tried to fight Hopkins years ago, he ducked like a girl

RJJ was already at LHW, and showed no interest in a fight. A lot of risk, no reward

Who the fuck else is there? Toney? I wouldn't call that a massive fight personally

Too much talk of names, not enough boxing knowledge and judgment of a fighters skills in these parts

[RafaelGonzal]

here we have a case yet again of many americans adopting the attitude that anyone outside america`s backyard who is not shown on american tv is a phoney.


all that proves to me is those that think in such a way know fuck all whatsoever about boxing .

if you cannot judge what calzaghe brings to the table in terms of abilty because he is a european fighting out of europe because you have a closed mind or even worse do not have a clue about what you see with your own eyes should stick to replays of gatti v ward only .

brooklyn1550 summed it up best.

I can only judge Joe C on the level of opposition he has faced period! and so far it is very thin indeed, Like I said at the begining of the thread, Lacy is a very limited opponent. Kessler is a good fighter Whose toughest opponent before Joe C was M. Beyer. This is not a lot to go on. I am by no means Ethnocentric Boxing is Universal and greatness can come from anywhere. The reality is that Joe C can still seek out and challenge the best out there if he truly wants greatness.

[Smazz20]

I can only judge Joe C on the level of opposition he has faced period! and so far it is very thin indeed, Like I said at the begining of the thread, Lacy is a very limited opponent. Kessler is a good fighter Whose toughest opponent before Joe C was M. Beyer. This is not a lot to go on. I am by no means Ethnocentric Boxing is Universal and greatness can come from anywhere. The reality is that Joe C can still seek out and challenge the best out there if he truly wants greatness.


Yes but who out here is currently "great"? BHOP is a name at this stage, that's all. Woods is'nt great and Dawson is only a prospect.

[CarltonBlues]

Kessler is a very good fighter, everything he does from here will show you how good Joe was. Mundine is the best fighter Kessler has beaten by the way, beyer wouldn't win a round against him.

[errsta]

it's a catch 22...Joe shouldn't have to cross the pond. Proven or not, he is the undisputed man at 168. Anyone wanting that title should do it on his terms. On top of being the man, he is the legitimate draw at the weight. There is no reason whatsoever for him to have to go elsewhere.

That being said, the fact that his contemporaries (Hopkins, Tarver, Jones, etc..) have not exactly been eager to fight in the UK makes it hard to say that Calzaghe is actually on their level. Perhaps it's not his fault the fights have not come off, but until they do it's hard to put him on that level. Regardless of where the blame lies, the fights have not happened and until they do it's impossible to factually say he deserves mention amongst them.

Also, you can't keep looking past the fact that he negotiated/"injured' himself out of 2 fights with Glen Johnson...Glen Johnson may not be an ATG, but he can definitely be used as gauge...

[TFFP]

That's a whole lot of bullshit

Kessler is much better than Johnson

Joe was much more paranoid about his hands at that stage of his career. He's learnt to accept it, and has developed other aspects of his game as a response. Genuine injuries

[RafaelGonzal]

Kessler is a very good fighter, everything he does from here will show you how good Joe was. Mundine is the best fighter Kessler has beaten by the way, beyer wouldn't win a round against him.


and OTTKE stretched Mundine out cold. KTFO but in his defence Mundine was highly inexperienced at the time with 9 or 10 fights I think. Still Mundine is only a top 10 168 and matched carefully he too may have a Championship soon, hell Danny Green has one.....the perfect Joe C opponent Danny Green, I would not be shocked to see this as Joe C' last opponent before retirement.

[robpalmer135]

His redord is not great but who has Hopkins beat???? the biggest names on his resume are Taylor and Jones and guess what he lost to them.

Otke, Veit, Kessler, Lecy, Brewer, Eubank are his 6 best fights.

[Larson]

His redord is not great but who has Hopkins beat???? the biggest names on his resume are Taylor and Jones and guess what he lost to them.

Otke, Veit, Kessler, Lecy, Brewer, Eubank are his 6 best fights.

You fucking clown do you remember Trinidad? Who is better than all that you just mentioned, Winky Wright, member him? You fucking clown

[TFFP]

You fucking clown do you remember Trinidad? Who is better than all that you just mentioned, Winky Wright, member him? You fucking clown
He's still got a fair point

Hopkins lost to the first decent genuine middleweight he faced, which somewhat takes away from his achievements at the weight. He boosted his reputations over 'names' that were at a physical disadvantage

He got schooled by RJJ, enough said

Wright was like a balloon at LHW, it was a boring as fuck fight, and neither came out with any real credit. If this was actually at MW, it would have been far more impressive, but then again Wright might have won. Clever match making, just like the Tarver fight

[RafaelGonzal]

Yes but who out here is currently "great"? BHOP is a name at this stage, that's all. Woods is'nt great and Dawson is only a prospect.

You have a point, however the greatest challenges are these 3 fights: Hopkins - Dawson - winner of Pavlik and Taylor win those and Im a beliver those are the biggest challenges out there for Joe. It will shut everyone up and prove he is a great not good fighter.

[TFFP]

You have a point, however the greatest challenges are these 3 fights: Hopkins - Dawson - winner of Pavlik and Taylor win those and Im a beliver those are the biggest challenges out there for Joe. It will shut everyone up and prove he is a great not good fighter.
This is where I have a major problem

Why would beating Dawson/Pavlik mean any more than beating Kessler?

Everybody knows Pavlik is a flawed fighter. He's just not quite elite, I think even the yanks know it. He has great power, great heart but his boxing skill is medicore to good, and his defence/chin leaves a lot to be desired. Quite frankly, Kessler would murder him, and the results of a poll were pretty conclusive on here

Dawson who? He's done very little. If Joe won, it would be put down to his inexperience. It's a nothing fight. The only thing remotely impressive would be winning at LHW

At least you can justify Hopkins by saying he's a name. The others just make it look like you only rate victories against yanks

[Jepster]

it's a catch 22...Joe shouldn't have to cross the pond. Proven or not, he is the undisputed man at 168. Anyone wanting that title should do it on his terms. On top of being the man, he is the legitimate draw at the weight. There is no reason whatsoever for him to have to go elsewhere.

That being said, the fact that his contemporaries (Hopkins, Tarver, Jones, etc..) have not exactly been eager to fight in the UK makes it hard to say that Calzaghe is actually on their level. Perhaps it's not his fault the fights have not come off, but until they do it's hard to put him on that level. Regardless of where the blame lies, the fights have not happened and until they do it's impossible to factually say he deserves mention amongst them.

Also, you can't keep looking past the fact that he negotiated/"injured' himself out of 2 fights with Glen Johnson...Glen Johnson may not be an ATG, but he can definitely be used as gauge...
First off let me say that I mean no disrespect... But you automatically assume that Calzaghe has to prove he is on the same level of the American fighters. Why is this the case? You stated yourself that Calzaghe is the legitimate draw since he is undisputed at his weight class... I would accept your logic if you simply said it like it is; that it's bullshit, but to get recognition you have to fight the big American names regardless of your skill level and your accomplishments otherwise.
I believe like many others do that a lot of people judge Calzaghes resume without knowing the boxers behind the names simply because they are not on the radar of the American boxing scene.

I'm not a huge fan of Calzaghe by the way I'm just a bit annoyed by the flawed logic of these discussions. I think it was Sean who said it best; look at the fighters, judge their skill and rate them.

Merry Christmas by the way :p

[cuchulain]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?






First of all, Joe is not generally regarded yet as an ATG

Secondly: when was he supposed to fight Toney?

The last fight Toney won at SMW was in July, 1994. He lost his last ever SMW fight to Roy in November, 1994. After that, he steadily gained weight and fought in other divisions at weights up to 240.

In July of 1994, Joe had fought six times. By November, he had seven fights. He wasn't even a contender yet for a SMW title.

When was he supposed to have fought Toney ?

Calzaghe tried to arrange a fight with Bernard.

According to SHOWTIME'S Jay Larkin:

"A teleconference was set up in my office in New York for July 30trh, 2002, and on the call was myself, Don King who was in the room, Frank ****** and Bernard Hopkins' lawyer, Arnold Joseph. Along with Arnold was a woman named Linda Carter, who was there on behalf of Bernard. We asked Arnold if Bernard wanted to fight Joe Calzaghe and we asked him how much money would he want if he did. The response we got was $3million and the fight would have to take place in the United States. After a little scratching of the head, we said 'Okay, done.' Frank ****** agreed on the spot, DOn King agreed and we agreed so as far as we were concerned all parties were singing off the one hymm sheet. Arnold excused himself with Linda and I can only assume it was to call Bernard. Either that day or the next day, they came with a new demand: $6million, dobule the sum that had been agreed, the deal blew up.....he had then and still has no desire to fight Joe Calzaghe, that much is pretty clear.

Joe gets criticised sometimes for not having fought the big-name Americans, but in this case the fault has never rested with him."



- Jay Larkin.

So yes, a calzaghe-Hopkins fight would have been great in 2002, but you can't put the blame on Joe for it not happening.

And you can be sure Bernard's reason for moving up to 175 had much more to do with spotting a beatable Tarver with a good reward-to-risk ratio, than his scorn for the 168.


Joe won his 168 lb title in Oct, 1997. It had been a year at that time since Roy had been at 168. One of them would have had to move. And it's no more Joe's fault than Roy's that it didn't happen.

Personally, I believe that Roy would have embarrassed Joe (or anyone else) at 168.

Joe's resume doesn't tell the whole story.

[MancMexican]

First of all, Joe is not generally regarded yet as an ATG

Secondly: when was he supposed to fight Toney?

The last fight Toney won at SMW was in July, 1994. He lost his last ever SMW fight to Roy in November, 1994. After that, he steadily gained weight and fought in other divisions at weights up to 240.

In July of 1994, Joe had fought six times. By November, he had seven fights. He wasn't even a contender yet for a SMW title.

When was he supposed to have fought Toney ?

Calzaghe tried to arrange a fight with Bernard.

According to SHOWTIME'S Jay Larkin:

"A teleconference was set up in my office in New York for July 30trh, 2002, and on the call was myself, Don King who was in the room, Frank ****** and Bernard Hopkins' lawyer, Arnold Joseph. Along with Arnold was a woman named Linda Carter, who was there on behalf of Bernard. We asked Arnold if Bernard wanted to fight Joe Calzaghe and we asked him how much money would he want if he did. The response we got was $3million and the fight would have to take place in the United States. After a little scratching of the head, we said 'Okay, done.' Frank ****** agreed on the spot, DOn King agreed and we agreed so as far as we were concerned all parties were singing off the one hymm sheet. Arnold excused himself with Linda and I can only assume it was to call Bernard. Either that day or the next day, they came with a new demand: $6million, dobule the sum that had been agreed, the deal blew up.....he had then and still has no desire to fight Joe Calzaghe, that much is pretty clear.

Joe gets criticised sometimes for not having fought the big-name Americans, but in this case the fault has never rested with him."



- Jay Larkin.

So yes, a calzaghe-Hopkins fight would have been great in 2002, but you can't put the blame on Joe for it not happening.

And you can be sure Bernard's reason for moving up to 175 had much more to do with spotting a beatable Tarver with a good reward-to-risk ratio, than his scorn for the 168.


Joe won his 168 lb title in Oct, 1997. It had been a year at that time since Roy had been at 168. One of them would have had to move. And it's no more Joe's fault than Roy's that it didn't happen.

Personally, I believe that Roy would have embarrassed Joe (or anyone else) at 168.

Joe's resume doesn't tell the whole story.


:good

[scott is cool]

Calzaghe has beaten fighters like Eubank, Reid, Lacy and Kessler. I think that is a pretty good resume, everybody said he would never beat Lacy, but he crushed Lacy's career, then after that everybody said Lacy was shit, so he beats Kessler and everybody thinks he's no good.
Next Joe is going to beat Hopkins, and everybody will say B-Hop was an old man, even though Joe wanted to fight him years ago, when they where both in their prime. Joe will never get the reconition he deserves.

[nickthegreek]

First off let me say that I mean no disrespect... But you automatically assume that Calzaghe has to prove he is on the same level of the American fighters. Why is this the case? You stated yourself that Calzaghe is the legitimate draw since he is undisputed at his weight class... I would accept your logic if you simply said it like it is; that it's bullshit, but to get recognition you have to fight the big American names regardless of your skill level and your accomplishments otherwise.
I believe like many others do that a lot of people judge Calzaghes resume without knowing the boxers behind the names simply because they are not on the radar of the American boxing scene.

I'm not a huge fan of Calzaghe by the way I'm just a bit annoyed by the flawed logic of these discussions. I think it was Sean who said it best; look at the fighters, judge their skill and rate them.

Merry Christmas by the way :p

:good

[PATSYS]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?






At the time Joe fought Lacy, Lacy was undefeated and was highly rated.

And beating the undefeated Kessler is definitely the high note on Joe's resume.

And the manner that Joe beat them counts for something.

[LeedsLad]

How many threads are there like this?:lol: Calzaghe doesnt have the best resume by FAR but he doesnt have the worst either.

Hindsight is a great thing, but how many of you were saying Lacy was shit prior to Calzaghe ripping him a new a-hole?:lol: Oh im sure most people here called it, these days everyone seems to have known Lacy was overhyped before the fight.. yet pre-Calzaghe he was the next big thing.

I find it funny how people say Kessler isnt a good fighter because he hasnt beaten anyone significant. Hasnt anyone got the ability to judge whether a fighter is good WITHOUT seeing him in with an great fighter?:lol: Watch him fight, you should be able to see the quality.

Calzaghe's resume is highly underrated because everyone thinks its absolutely crap and hes beating nobody, he has a few good wins and a decent resume.

[PATSYS]

How many threads are there like this?:lol: Calzaghe doesnt have the best resume by FAR but he doesnt have the worst either.

Hindsight is a great thing, but how many of you were saying Lacy was shit prior to Calzaghe ripping him a new a-hole?:lol: Oh im sure most people here called it, these days everyone seems to have known Lacy was overhyped before the fight.. yet pre-Calzaghe he was the next big thing.

I find it funny how people say Kessler isnt a good fighter because he hasnt beaten anyone significant. Hasnt anyone got the ability to judge whether a fighter is good WITHOUT seeing him in with an great fighter?:lol: Watch him fight, you should be able to see the quality.

Calzaghe's resume is highly underrated because everyone thinks its absolutely hes beating nobody, he has a few good wins and a decent resume.

Exactly.

[ThePlugInBabies]

You fucking clown do you remember Trinidad? Who is better than all that you just mentioned, Winky Wright, member him? You fucking clown

did you forget that tito ain't a MW and his best win there was joppy? you fucking clown!

did you forget that krispy kreme's wright looked shit at 170? you fucking clown!

merry christmas :smooch

[FRKO]

:good

[FRKO]

You fucking clown do you remember Trinidad? Who is better than all that you just mentioned, Winky Wright, member him? You fucking clown

All I know is that I had to Adblock your avatar because it's driving me up the wall.

[ron u.k.]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?




how many times have numbskulls like you have to be told that jones and toney had already moved up to light heavy and heavy when calzaghe started his reign.he was never on their radar anyway.you name one atg super middle in calzaghe's time that he could have fought.hopkins priced himself out of a fight with calzaghe a few years ago and is still ducking and diving.

[Jepster]

BULL...SHEEEEEET!
Calfaghe has not fought anyone in Tarver's league.
Calfaghe is a HYPED fighter that not only fought B-level at best, but did it in a PROTECTED environment to ensure he wasn't beat by a B-level fighter.
He should have been DQ'ed in the Kessler fight, for SLAPPING him in the back of the head AT LEAST 100 times throughout the fight.

Calfaghe Vs Tarver = Tarver by TKO
Calfaghe Vs Trinidad = Trinidad by KO
Calfaghe Vs Johnson = Johnson by TKO

We'll never know cause ****** PROTECTED the slapper for 18 years.

The fight I would have liked to see was Calfaghe Vs Jirov, but of course we never will.
Jirov by TKO!

You're a troll... I have never seen you making one decent argument. You should be banned for wasting bandwith with your silly comments.

Take some time of from this site and watch some of the "overprotected Eurofighters" and come back with an opinion based on their skill and not on the degree of exposure they get in the media.

Ps. Don't waste your time responding you're on my ignore list from now on.

[Bslice]

it's a catch 22...Joe shouldn't have to cross the pond. Proven or not, he is the undisputed man at 168. Anyone wanting that title should do it on his terms. On top of being the man, he is the legitimate draw at the weight. There is no reason whatsoever for him to have to go elsewhere.

That being said, the fact that his contemporaries (Hopkins, Tarver, Jones, etc..) have not exactly been eager to fight in the UK makes it hard to say that Calzaghe is actually on their level. Perhaps it's not his fault the fights have not come off, but until they do it's hard to put him on that level. Regardless of where the blame lies, the fights have not happened and until they do it's impossible to factually say he deserves mention amongst them.

Also, you can't keep looking past the fact that he negotiated/"injured' himself out of 2 fights with Glen Johnson...Glen Johnson may not be an ATG, but he can definitely be used as gauge...

Well put

[sean]

BULL...SHEEEEEET!
Calfaghe has not fought anyone in Tarver's league.
Calfaghe is a HYPED fighter that not only fought B-level at best, but did it in a PROTECTED environment to ensure he wasn't beat by a B-level fighter.
He should have been DQ'ed in the Kessler fight, for SLAPPING him in the back of the head AT LEAST 100 times throughout the fight.

Calfaghe Vs Tarver = Tarver by TKO
Calfaghe Vs Trinidad = Trinidad by KO
Calfaghe Vs Johnson = Johnson by TKO

We'll never know cause ****** PROTECTED the slapper for 18 years.

The fight I would have liked to see was Calfaghe Vs Jirov, but of course we never will.
Jirov by TKO!

very true
calzaghe has not fought a fighter not good enough to be in the contender series.
he has not been beat by a harding or a johnson type fighter.

calzaghe has not said he will not fight green or dawson or erdei or woods, or any fighter with a pulse.

calzaghe is well known for having as much movement as a lamppost and keeping his chin up in the air and firing of as many as 20 punches a round.

i also agree its debatable if calzaghe at 35 or 36 could get better than a split descion v as talented a fighter as murqi, whos best result was losing to a fighter who was not good enough to get on the contender.

trinidad showed v wright he is a formidable super middleweight hitting wrights gloves with his face to wear wright out was a statergy that just failed to work.

johnson now this is where you having a laugh.

johnsons record at 168 is
lost title fight to hopkins at 160 themn moved up

lost to sosa
lost to atg kirwanka
win over legendary 3-20 fighter campy wampy
loss to ottke
loss to vanderpool
loss to sheika
huge comeback win over rowena bellbottom 9-23
loss to branco

then moved up to light heavy where he ressurected his career.

[Diablo]

When are u guys gonna realise that Tarver is and always was nothing...he is a very lazy fighter and barely throws any punches. Ye he beat a shot Roy Jones..wow. Calzaghe would destroy him.

haters will always hate but Calzaghe beats anyone from 160-175.

[LeedsLad]

When are u guys gonna realise that Tarver is and always was nothing...he is a very lazy fighter and barely throws any punches. Ye he beat a shot Roy Jones..wow. Calzaghe would destroy him.

haters will always hate but Calzaghe beats anyone from 160-175.
Agreed. Tarver always was garbage, he made his name from knocking out a shot Jones and he barely beat Johnson. Calzaghe wouldnt lose a round against Tarver.

And to BustaLip or whatever the fag is called, Trinidad to KO Calzaghe:lol: Get real...

[greengloves]

in relative terms of course joe calzaghe is an ATG,he holds 20 defences of a world title,holds an unbeaten record,has cleaned out an entire division and was the first man to unify the super mw division.

On these conditions alone he is already an ATG,all he needs to do now is beat a 'legend' in bhop(overrated bum beat by a b-level fighter) to cement his legacy as a two weight champion.In 20 years we will not remember who he beat or the 'bums' defeated,what we will remember is the first truly great 'true' super middleweight who unified a division and went unbeaten for near 20 years.

[sean]

tarver is a good fighter , just not a great fighter.
styles make fights and against certain styles he shines against others he struggles.
he is 38 now and clearly in decline.
matched right he can still win but he has become very hesitant about who he wants to share a ring with and is clearly not really in love with the game anymore.

[errsta]

First off let me say that I mean no disrespect... But you automatically assume that Calzaghe has to prove he is on the same level of the American fighters. Why is this the case? You stated yourself that Calzaghe is the legitimate draw since he is undisputed at his weight class... I would accept your logic if you simply said it like it is; that it's bullshit, but to get recognition you have to fight the big American names regardless of your skill level and your accomplishments otherwise.
I believe like many others do that a lot of people judge Calzaghes resume without knowing the boxers behind the names simply because they are not on the radar of the American boxing scene.

I'm not a huge fan of Calzaghe by the way I'm just a bit annoyed by the flawed logic of these discussions. I think it was Sean who said it best; look at the fighters, judge their skill and rate them.

Merry Christmas by the way :p
No disrespect taken.

My logic is not at all fueled by the fact that these fighters are American but by the notion that the best way to measure up to your contemporaries is to actually fight them. Again, I don't place the entire blame on Calzaghe for these fights not coming off.

That being said, it's not really a fair indictment on Calzaghe, either. Among his contemporaries (age wise) Calzaghe is the only one that is not visibly past his prime. All of the fighters I mentioned have seen better days and Calzaghe would draw more criticism than praise from his detractors if he beat them at this stage in their respective careers. If he lost to them, he would also be unfairly derided for losing to "old" fighters. Is it fair? Of course not. Legacy wise, Jones -who fought a higher caliber of competition than Calzaghe- also gets a similar raw deal. Both were indisputably talented fighters but their legacies will have as many "What ifs?" as actually weres.

[Axl_Nose]

Joe C is an undoubtedly an ATG at Super Middleweight, unfortunately this is a fairly new division so its impossible to rate him against anybody at 168lbs, Jones for me was the greatest 168lbs fighter but he didnt stay there long ..... Joe C and Hopkins are fairly similar, analysing they're resumes isnt gonna convince anybody that they are a main player in historical terms, there are way too many nobodies that they've fought, but it wasnt Hopkins fault that he reigned over the weakest middleweight division in history and had to take on welterweights for big paydays, and the same for Calzaghe, theres been nobody to take on over the years. Its a pretty similar story for Larry Holmes too although Larry for me is an undisputed ATG, but he didnt have much to take on in the early 80s .... Joe C and Hopkins did the best what they could do because the opposition wasnt there to cement they're legacys

[errsta]

Joe C is an undoubtedly an ATG at Super Middleweight, unfortunately this is a fairly new division so its impossible to rate him against anybody at 168lbs, Jones for me was the greatest 168lbs fighter but he didnt stay there long ..... Joe C and Hopkins are fairly similar, analysing they're resumes isnt gonna convince anybody that they are a main player in historical terms, there are way too many nobodies that they've fought, but it wasnt Hopkins fault that he reigned over the weakest middleweight division in history and had to take on welterweights for big paydays, and the same for Calzaghe, theres been nobody to take on over the years. Its a pretty similar story for Larry Holmes too although Larry for me is an undisputed ATG, but he didnt have much to take on in the early 80s .... Joe C and Hopkins did the best what they could do because the opposition wasnt there to cement they're legacys

:good:good:good

[RafaelGonzal]

it's a catch 22...Joe shouldn't have to cross the pond. Proven or not, he is the undisputed man at 168. Anyone wanting that title should do it on his terms. On top of being the man, he is the legitimate draw at the weight. There is no reason whatsoever for him to have to go elsewhere.

That being said, the fact that his contemporaries (Hopkins, Tarver, Jones, etc..) have not exactly been eager to fight in the UK makes it hard to say that Calzaghe is actually on their level. Perhaps it's not his fault the fights have not come off, but until they do it's hard to put him on that level. Regardless of where the blame lies, the fights have not happened and until they do it's impossible to factually say he deserves mention amongst them.




Also, you can't keep looking past the fact that he negotiated/"injured' himself out of 2 fights with Glen Johnson...Glen Johnson may not be an ATG, but he can definitely be used as gauge...

absolutely the facts

[djfonti]

This thread is hilarious.....what alot of Hopkins fans seem to forget is that he has hasn't fought anyone either, and is certainly no ATG himself.

[RafaelGonzal]

This thread is hilarious.....what alot of Hopkins fans seem to forget is that he has hasn't fought anyone either, and is certainly no ATG himself.

at least he has fought fighters of note. Trinidad, Delahoya, Wright, Jermain Taylor twice, these are identifiabale names skilled and seasoned champions, Jermain was a little green but had world class ability and talent, this is much more than what Joe C brings in terms of level of opposition

[ThePlugInBabies]

at least he has fought fighters of note. Trinidad, Delahoya, Wright, Jermain Taylor twice, these are identifiabale names skilled and seasoned champions, Jermain was a little green but had world class ability and talent, this is much more than what Joe C brings in terms of level of opposition

sums up your arguement really.

[djfonti]

at least he has fought fighters of note. Trinidad, Delahoya, Wright, Jermain Taylor twice, these are identifiabale names skilled and seasoned champions, Jermain was a little green but had world class ability and talent, this is much more than what Joe C brings in terms of level of opposition

Bollocks, he hasn't fought anyone and won. He fought a decent fighter in Jones and lost.....fighting blown up flyweights and beating them doesn't mean jack shit just because they're famous, Calzaghe would beat Pacquiao, does that validate him?

Hopkins has the edge in one big area from what I see, and that's big fight experience (he may have fought blown up straw weights, but they were big fights), and Calzaghe may be blinded by the lights and razzmattazz.....Joe has to be careful.....

[crippet]

I'd say Tyson has the thinnest resume of an ATG.

He never beat one A list fighter and lost every time he was put down.

[Still~style]

calzaghe is what he is: an atg in the eyes of many europeans, and a "close-toe elite" fighter for the americans. whateva. in my opinion he's definitely a all time great in the continent of europe. but internationally he is not proven enough. sorry.

[crippet]

I'd say Tyson has the thinnest resume of an ATG.

He never beat one A list fighter and lost every time he was put down.

[Fighting Weight]

johnson now this is where you having a laugh.

johnsons record at 168 is
lost title fight to hopkins at 160 themn moved up

lost to sosa
lost to atg kirwanka
win over legendary 3-20 fighter campy wampy
loss to ottke
loss to vanderpool
loss to sheika
huge comeback win over rowena bellbottom 9-23
loss to branco

then moved up to light heavy where he ressurected his career.

If Johnsons so bad, why did Calzaghe seek a fight with him then? Does Calzaghe have a history of fighting bums or something...hmmm.

Even more to the point, why did he then chicken out, not once but TWICE?

Funny how the Calzaghe fans are crowing that Hopkins chickened out of fighting Calzaghe back in 2002 yet are full of excuses for their own guys ducking. Ridiculous.

[Fighting Weight]

I'd say Tyson has the thinnest resume of an ATG.

He never beat one A list fighter and lost every time he was put down.

Heavyweight champion at 20, undisputed champion at 21 (I think), defended against all comers for 3 years....won another belt 6 years later when badly faded....

As for A list fighters well the only one that really stands out is old Larry Holmes, who was 38. Hopkins is 43. Guess where I'm heading?

[KO Boxing]

I admit that I personally under-rate Joe C...

But this is CLEARLY balanced by those who over-rate him...

I think calling him one of the best fighters (in terms of talent) of all time, is a VERY big stretch (and imo, needs some re-thinking). What do we define as talent?

Resume wise, he is also not an ATG, despite arguably being the greatest super middleweight ever on paper (although H2H, it's a different story). But I also think the word "ATG" is handed around today moreso than it was back in the day.

[guncho]

i don't cere! he's still a great fighter!

[Fighting Weight]

Resume wise, he is also not an ATG, despite arguably being the greatest super middleweight ever on paper (although H2H, it's a different story). But I also think the word "ATG" is handed around today moreso than it was back in the day.

The thing is even that claim is a pretty poor boast - how long has there actually been a super-middleweight division? 20 years? I suspect if the 168 division hadn't existed the guy wouldn't have had 20 defences....

[FRKO]

calzaghe is what he is: an atg in the eyes of many europeans, and a "close-toe elite" fighter for the americans.

What makes you think his toes are close?

[RafaelGonzal]

Its OK to love Joe C but the truth is the truth and we really dont know how good this guy really is.......Just like we dont know how good Kessler will eventually be, what we do know is lacy was a good job of marketing and propaganda, overrated in the extreme that is a fact. The other fact is that if Joe C does nothing else to prove his pedigree he will be thought as nothing more than better version of that Champion who made 21 defensess, Ottke.

[sean]

If Johnsons so bad, why did Calzaghe seek a fight with him then? Does Calzaghe have a history of fighting bums or something...hmmm.

Even more to the point, why did he then chicken out, not once but TWICE?

Funny how the Calzaghe fans are crowing that Hopkins chickened out of fighting Calzaghe back in 2002 yet are full of excuses for their own guys ducking. Ridiculous.

you left out the part where i said johnson ressurected his career at light heavy.


calzaghe did indeed agree to fight johnson twice and pulled out injured twice at light heavy , but in hindsight the fight just afterwards he stayed at 168 and fought what was considered at the time a much bigger threat than johnson in lacy and again the next time calzaghe fought kessler again the fight considered the greater risk.

what i applied johnson was his appaling record at 168.

johnson as far as i remember never beat a single 168 fighter ranked in the top 500 in the world but lost to every top 50 fighter he faced.

and i was replying to the fact that the poster said johnson would ko the fuck out of calzaghe at 168.

why in your opinion would johnson lose to all the fighters i named at 168 yet would beat calzaghe at 168?


no excuses for calzaghe pulling out 100% johnson wanted the fights , but as far as the actual fight going, calzaghe has absolutly feasted on short come forward pressure fighters .

he has never even lost a round to 1.

[running man]

not an all time great. great accomplishments in the wins category, but until you fight several great fighters and win, you will never be considered an atg. he has beaten one good fighter; that's hardly a resume. the thing is, he should have fought roy jones, hopkins, tarver, winky wright, or any other notable fighter years ago. ducking the best out there should not be rewarded. when you are dominating the european competition for several years, you need to break out and fight the best in the world, wherever they may be from.

[Manjanek]

This guy never fought Roy Jones, or James Toney and was such a nonentity that Hopkins went over his division to fight at LH vs Tarver. To date he has beaten Jeff Lacy! yes, the one from the Manfredo fight!!!!!! and Kessler who while good, has his best win aginst Marcus Beyer!!!

Joe is a good fighter thats all. His greatest skill has been in matchmaking and laying low, then coming out when the dust is clear. Clearly the thinnest resume of a proposed ATG ever, and if not who then? give me some names?






I am not at all discrediting your point. I think that JC has a very shoddy resume when it comes to opposition, but the Jeff Lacy in the Calzaghe fight is nothing like the one against manfredo

Lacy has endured an accident that will ultimately be the reason he can never exist as a top contender in any weight class. He cannot generate knock out power from his left shoulder do to a rotator cuff injury.
Joe executed the PERFECT gameplan against Lacy. I really don't think Jeff was even a 1 dimensional fighter, its just he didn't have speed or technical skill over calzaghe. I say lacy was a solid win for calzaghe and not to be compared to the sloppy lacy we just saw. But you are absolutely right! Calzaghe has ducked the best and doesn't deserve ATG or even P4P when based solely on resume.

[jc]

I agree and disagree with so many things in this thread that i dont know where to start.

Joe is and will be universally recognized as both a HOF and an ATG when his time is up.

no he doesnt have the big Yank on the record but who excactly are these big name yanks at 168? Lacy is prob as big as they come at the time. Hopkins has never wanted to go near Joe (till recently aparently, the fight in theory could still happen), Jones was unified 175 champ when joe was defending and I dont even think Toney remembers the last time he was a super middleweight.

You can become all time great by domination alone, Joe has over 20 title defences, some say not all those defences was A class opoenents but go take a look at Hopkins 20 defences, there isnt a lot at all in there calibre of oponent.

joe hasnt had the big names of the past to beat, but he has been the best super middleweight ever in the last 10 years, the first undisputed/Ring champ at the weight.

Ask yourselves if you rank Ricardo Lopez, or Rocky Marciano, or Larry Holmes as all time greats...because if you do then why not joe Calzaghe...

And by the way JC hasnt finished yet, the title at 175 is still the ambition, and he could yet get Hopkins'/Taylors/Pavlik or even Erdei/Dawson or Woods on the resume before retirement comes along.

[Cobbler]

he should have fought roy jones, hopkins, tarver, winky wright, or any other notable fighter years ago. ducking the best out there should not be rewarded.

The myth that Calzaghe ducked Jones has already been scotched in this thread, so why repeat it again? We all know that Hopkins ducked Joe, not the other way round, so why repeat it again? Winky Wright was two weight divisions under SMW for most of the time Calzaghe has been champion and has never shown any interest in fighting Calzaghe. And why on earth is Tarver on this list??