Why Didn't Chavez stay at 135?

[Pat_Lowe]

This is something I've been wondering. He seemed able to make the weight pretty easily and IMO he looked his best at this weight. Why didn't he stay there for very long? He only notched up 2 defences, Why was a possible matchup with Whitaker not considered (He only won the title a year later) at that point?

Would someone from this time period be able to shed some light on why this? Why he jumped to 140 pretty quickly. I don't know because I wasn't born at the time sadly.

[Robbi]

I have just had a look at "The Ring" magazine which featured the review of Chavez v Ramirez, which was Chavez' last fight as a lightweight. And it seems Don King had Chavez' career mapped out. It was mainly down to money. No mention in the article that Chavez had any trouble making the weight.

[warchild]

After Chavez' win over Rosario he became the next big thing. There was talk of Chavez going straight to welterweight at that point. My guess is that he was offered a shot at Roger Mayweather's title and couldn't resist the oppurtunity to try that chin again for a third title. I'd be hesitant to say that he was ducking Whitaker, as he fought Taylor soon after going to 140.

[sweet_scientist]

This is something I've been wondering. He seemed able to make the weight pretty easily and IMO he looked his best at this weight. Why didn't he stay there for very long? He only notched up 2 defences, Why was a possible matchup with Whitaker not considered (He only won the title a year later) at that point?

Would someone from this time period be able to shed some light on why this? Why he jumped to 140 pretty quickly. I don't know because I wasn't born at the time sadly.

The conventional answer is that Chavez wanted to go after Roger Mayweather, who was building a reputation at 140 as the Mexican assassin after taking out the likes of Rodolfo Gonzalez, Rene Arredondo and Mauricio Aceves. Mayweather was also talking shit about Chavez of course, and Chavez naturally wanted to shut him up.

He might have also made the move contemplating a possible showdown with Meldrick Taylor. Meldrick was the prodigy of the Olympics, and had a great win against p4p'er Buddy McGirt under his belt. Around 88-89, he was considered a better fighter than Pernell Whitaker, who despite all his talent, had only managed to rack up a couple of broken hands and ankle amidst a few quality wins as a pro.

For these reasons, perhaps he overlooked a possible matchup with Whitaker at 135 and went to 140.

Personally, I think these reasons helped rationalise a move for Chavez to 140, but it wasn't without the thought that Whitaker was too risky a proposition for not enough reward to entertain at the time. No doubt Chavez would have seen the Whitaker-Ramirez fight, and would have known that Pea was robbed. He would have heard about the near shutout he put on Roger Mayweather as well if not actually seen it. But without Whitaker having a belt, Chavez had little to gain from facing a potentially dangerous opponent like Whitaker. Mayweather had a belt at 140, and Chavez already took the belt at 135 that Ramirez stole from Pea.

By facing two men that Whitaker actually beat, Ramirez and Mayweather, one could argue that Chavez wasn't too keen on facing Whitaker. I don't think he was scared of Whitaker, but it made bad business sense to fight someone without a belt, who was coming off a "loss".

All that being said, I would have liked to see Chavez attempt to unify or clean out 135 seeing that 135 was his best weight class (where he looked the best). It's a hole in his career that he never unified a division, despite facing a lot of good/excellent fighters throughout it. IMO there was no real need for the Mayweather rematch and the string of fights that came after it leading up to the Taylor fight (Was the first Mayweather fight not conclusive enough? Was Mayweather beating really QUALITY Mexican fighters? Didn't Mayweather talk shit about everyone?). He should have spent that time at lightweight and attempted a move up to 140 late 1990 and tried to make a fight with Taylor early 1991.

[Pat_Lowe]

The conventional answer is that Chavez wanted to go after Roger Mayweather, who was building a reputation at 140 as the Mexican assassin after taking out the likes of Rodolfo Gonzalez, Rene Arredondo and Mauricio Aceves. Mayweather was also talking shit about Chavez of course, and Chavez naturally wanted to shut him up.

He might have also made the move contemplating a possible showdown with Meldrick Taylor. Meldrick was the prodigy of the Olympics, and had a great win against p4p'er Buddy McGirt under his belt. Around 88-89, he was considered a better fighter than Pernell Whitaker, who despite all his talent, had only managed to rack up a couple of broken hands and ankle amidst a few quality wins as a pro.

For these reasons, perhaps he overlooked a possible matchup with Whitaker at 135 and went to 140.

Personally, I think these reasons helped rationalise a move for Chavez to 140, but it wasn't without the thought that Whitaker was too risky a proposition for not enough reward to entertain at the time. No doubt Chavez would have seen the Whitaker-Ramirez fight, and would have known that Pea was robbed. He would have heard about the near shutout he put on Roger Mayweather as well if not actually seen it. But without Whitaker having a belt, Chavez had little to gain from facing a potentially dangerous opponent like Whitaker. Mayweather had a belt at 140, and Chavez already took the belt at 135 that Ramirez stole from Pea.

By facing two men that Whitaker actually beat, Ramirez and Mayweather, one could argue that Chavez wasn't too keen on facing Whitaker. I don't think he was scared of Whitaker, but it made bad business sense to fight someone without a belt, who was coming off a "loss".

All that being said, I would have liked to see Chavez attempt to unify or clean out 135 seeing that 135 was his best weight class (where he looked the best). It's a hole in his career that he never unified a division, despite facing a lot of good/excellent fighters throughout it. IMO there was no real need for the Mayweather rematch and the string of fights that came after it leading up to the Taylor fight (Was the first Mayweather fight not conclusive enough? Was Mayweather beating really QUALITY Mexican fighters? Didn't Mayweather talk shit about everyone?). He should have spent that time at lightweight and attempted a move up to 140 late 1990 and tried to make a fight with Taylor early 1991.

Excellent post and I agree. Do you think the Whitaker after the 1st Ramirez fight would have been ready for Chavez though (minus the broken hand)? How much did he improve after that?

But yeah a rematch with Mayweather was not necessary, yes he became a 3 division titlist but his stock would have risen more had he stayed at lightweight and cleaned it out. Although that win over Taylor is arguably the best win on his resume and would not have been possible had he not moved to 140.

Out of curiosity do you know why Chavez never faced Buddy McGirt? I know he beat the 2 guys who beat McGirt in Whitaker and Taylor but having a win over him would be a pretty decent addition to his record.

One last thing to add, if Chavez did wait till 1991 to move up and face Taylor, its definently possible (most likely) that he would have lost. Taylor would have only gotten better and a matchup in 1991 would feature Taylor without a cut in his mouth (depending on how much difference you think that made in the fight) and a more experienced version with possible 3 or 4 more extra fights under his belt.

[sweet_scientist]

Excellent post and I agree. Do you think the Whitaker after the 1st Ramirez fight would have been ready for Chavez though (minus the broken hand)? How much did he improve after that?

But yeah a rematch with Mayweather was not necessary, yes he became a 3 division titlist but his stock would have risen more had he stayed at lightweight and cleaned it out. Although that win over Taylor is arguably the best win on his resume and would not have been possible had he not moved to 140.

Out of curiosity do you know why Chavez never faced Buddy McGirt? I know he beat the 2 guys who beat McGirt in Whitaker and Taylor but having a win over him would be a pretty decent addition to his record.

One last thing to add, if Chavez did wait till 1991 to move up and face Taylor, its definently possible (most likely) that he would have lost. Taylor would have only gotten better and a matchup in 1991 would feature Taylor without a cut in his mouth (depending on how much difference you think that made in the fight) and a more experienced version with possible 3 or 4 more extra fights under his belt.

Cheers.

Well, say Pea-Chavez occured late 88 or early 89, I think Pea would have been ready by then. Pea was labeled a bit of a runner after the Ramirez fight, but you have to consider: he broke his hand midway through the fight against a real strong opponent that even Chavez was forced to box around and had to resort to movement at times. A two handed Pea would have been able to hold his ground and use his offense more to keep the likes of Ramirez/Chavez at bay, even as early as 88-89. Perhaps Whitaker might not have been at his absolute peak by late 88 (he did perhaps get a little stronger near the end of his lightweight days), but he would have been near enough to it to compete and arguably beat Chavez.

It would have been a pity to miss out on the Taylor fight at 140. I think Chavez still could have got it had he moved to 140 say a year later than he did.

Not sure exactly if talks ever occured between McGirt and Chavez. Obviously McGirt was going up to welterweight pretty much as soon as Chavez went up to 140, and so they may have just missed out on the opportunity, but still, you would have thought that between 1990-1993 they would have found a way to fight each other, even if it was at a catchweight between 140-47, considering they were both p4p'ers during that time.

I would have definitely liked to see a more mature Taylor without a pre-existing cut in his mouth take on Chavez. Not sure I'd go so far as to say Taylor would be likely to win, but I wouldn't make Chavez favourite over him either.

[TBooze]

As has been said; there was more attractive matches at 140. Whitaker was not considered the finish article in 88. Chavez had shown to be the 135lbs World Champ and with no one of interest left to fight, it made $$$$ sense to see a redeemed Black Mamba rematch.

[divac]

As has been said; there was more attractive matches at 140. Whitaker was not considered the finish article in 88. Chavez had shown to be the 135lbs World Champ and with no one of interest left to fight, it made $$$$ sense to see a redeemed Black Mamba rematch.

Thats all there is to it TBooze.......

There was nobody left at 135 lbs to fight that made $$$$$ sense!

Chavez' management and promotional team would have had to have been complete morons to say, "we want to prove complete dominance at 135 lbs and take on that defensive wizard kid that was robbed against Ramirez......
.....thats like the top contenders in the Heavyweight division chomping at the bit to fight Chris Byrd, when Byrd was a contender and prime. (Byrd was never a fighter that attracted fans and money to the table)

Champions dont fight defensive stylist like Pernell Whitaker unless they are world famous and the sport is calling out for the fight. (Which means big money)
That was'nt the case back when Chavez made his move to 140 lbs!


The thing most dont know about but should know is that Pernell Whitaker's management and promotional team (Main Events) ducked
a prime and World wide consensus P4P champion JC Chavez when Whitaker moved to 140 lbs for one fight with IBF champion Raphael Pineda, and then skipped town to 147 lbs when most thought Whitaker would challenge Chavez at 140 lbs.

......I dont think its ever happened before or since......and I'll say it to the day I die.....how can an elite fighter like Pernell Whitaker skip away from a weight division that contained the p4p best fighter in the world????????





Pernell's biggest fan on this board (Sweet_Scientist)knows the story, I just though that those of you who did'nt should know!!!:hey :D :yep :deal

[sweet_scientist]

The thing most dont know about but should know is that Pernell Whitaker's management and promotional team (Main Events) ducked
a prime and World wide consensus P4P champion JC Chavez when Whitaker moved to 140 lbs for one fight with IBF champion Raphael Pineda, and then skipped town to 147 lbs when most thought Whitaker would challenge Chavez at 140 lbs.

......I dont think its ever happened before or since......and I'll say it to the day I die.....how can an elite fighter like Pernell Whitaker skip away from a weight division that contained the p4p best fighter in the world????????
He did, but it's not like he skipped 140 and went on to fight some bum. Buddy McGirt was a p4p'er himself, and when you consider that he took on Chavez less than 2 years after leaving lightweight, it wasn't THAT much of a duck.

As it turned out Buddy McGirt gave Whitaker a closer fight (in most people's eyes) than Chavez did anyway.

[Pat_Lowe]

Cheers.

Well, say Pea-Chavez occured late 88 or early 89, I think Pea would have been ready by then. Pea was labeled a bit of a runner after the Ramirez fight, but you have to consider: he broke his hand midway through the fight against a real strong opponent that even Chavez was forced to box around and had to resort to movement at times. A two handed Pea would have been able to hold his ground and use his offense more to keep the likes of Ramirez/Chavez at bay, even as early as 88-89. Perhaps Whitaker might not have been at his absolute peak by late 88 (he did perhaps get a little stronger near the end of his lightweight days), but he would have been near enough to it to compete and arguably beat Chavez.

It would have been a pity to miss out on the Taylor fight at 140. I think Chavez still could have got it had he moved to 140 say a year later than he did.

Not sure exactly if talks ever occured between McGirt and Chavez. Obviously McGirt was going up to welterweight pretty much as soon as Chavez went up to 140, and so they may have just missed out on the opportunity, but still, you would have thought that between 1990-1993 they would have found a way to fight each other, even if it was at a catchweight between 140-47, considering they were both p4p'ers during that time.

I would have definitely liked to see a more mature Taylor without a pre-existing cut in his mouth take on Chavez. Not sure I'd go so far as to say Taylor would be likely to win, but I wouldn't make Chavez favourite over him either.

Perfect, you have answered all my questions thankyou. THe last part about Taylor, think that he came within 2 seconds of beating Chavez. Yes a fight is 36 minutes not 35 minutes 58 seconds but he came so close. He proved in that fight he did have what it took to beat Chavez, he'd just have to go through hell to do it. I'd say Taylor would beat him peak for peak just that different circumstances got in the way of him doing that.

[sweet_scientist]

Perfect, you have answered all my questions thankyou. THe last part about Taylor, think that he came within 2 seconds of beating Chavez. Yes a fight is 36 minutes not 35 minutes 58 seconds but he came so close. He proved in that fight he did have what it took to beat Chavez, he'd just have to go through hell to do it. I'd say Taylor would beat him peak for peak just that different circumstances got in the way of him doing that.
Perhaps you're right. Chavez seemed to start terribly slow against Taylor, and if he did that again in a bout where Taylor was somehow more mature and didn't have the pre-existing cut in his mouth, it could have got him over the line. Of course, I would never write off Chavez, because as a true champion, he often found another gear when he needed to win.

That said, Taylor DID seem to push him to the brink, and Maybe Chavez had nothing more to give at 140 than what we saw that night. Interesting to contemplate...

[TBooze]

Chavez was still the P4P king when Pernell faced him, and he got schooled.

Shows you how good Chavez was: by 93 he was 10lbs and 6 years past his best, and yet still considered the finest fighter on the planet.

[divac]

He did, but it's not like he skipped 140 and went on to fight some bum. Buddy McGirt was a p4p'er himself, and when you consider that he took on Chavez less than 2 years after leaving lightweight, it wasn't THAT much of a duck.

As it turned out Buddy McGirt gave Whitaker a closer fight (in most people's eyes) than Chavez did anyway.

He did'nt fight a bum Scientist, but he did'nt fight the almost unanimous consensus p4p champion in Chavez either.
Like I said, I dont thing it ever happened before or since!

[divac]

Chavez was still the P4P king when Pernell faced him, and he got schooled.

Yes, Chavez was considered the p4p king......but he was considered that fighting at 140 lbs.

For Whitaker, he stepped up to the Welterweight division.
If memory serves me, Whitaker made the max contracted weight of 145 lbs.
Chavez fully conditioned could only max out at 142 lbs.
.....by fight time it's fair to say that Whitaker most probably added a few more pounds.
I doubt Chavez added even a pound or two from the weigh in to fight time.

There is no doubt about it, Whitaker was more suited to fight as a Welter than Chavez was, and still Pernell at least imo and that of the judges, could only muster a draw.

I cant help but speculate that had the fight been at 140 lbs, thats 5 lbs less of solid muscle that Pernell Whitaker would have had less in his body for JC Chavez to take advantage of.
Whitaker held his own when he bodied up with Chavez on the inside.....I doubt he would have done that carrying 5 lbs less of muscle!

Its only speculation now of course!:think

[sweet_scientist]

He did'nt fight a bum Scientist, but he did'nt fight the almost unanimous consensus p4p champion in Chavez either.
Like I said, I dont thing it ever happened before or since!

Well, Whitaker' people signed a contract to fight Chavez 14 months after he left lightweight. It's unusual that in that time he only stayed for a couple of fights at 140 and then jumped up again to 147, but it's not really unusual to not make a fight with the near consensus best fighter in the world during such a period of opportunity. Fights sometimes take years and years, and in some cases never even get made even wiht fighters fighting in the same division. I don't think the length of time concerned in which they didn't meet once Pernell left lightweight is THAT unusual. It's made to seem more unusual than it is by the fact that he quickly went up to 147.

[sweet_scientist]

Yes, Chavez was considered the p4p king......but he was considered that fighting at 140 lbs.

For Whitaker, he stepped up to the Welterweight division.
If memory serves me, Whitaker made the max contracted weight of 145 lbs.
Chavez fully conditioned could only max out at 142 lbs.
.....by fight time it's fair to say that Whitaker most probably added a few more pounds.
I doubt Chavez added even a pound or two from the weigh in to fight time.

There is no doubt about it, Whitaker was more suited to fight as a Welter than Chavez was, and still Pernell at least imo and that of the judges, could only muster a draw.

I cant help but speculate that had the fight been at 140 lbs, thats 5 lbs less of solid muscle that Pernell Whitaker would have had less in his body for JC Chavez to take advantage of.
Whitaker held his own when he bodied up with Chavez on the inside.....I doubt he would have done that carrying 5 lbs less of muscle!

Its only speculation now of course!:think
You can't be serious. So you're saying Chavez came into the ring 142-144 pounds?
No way in hell. He had been pretty much cut to the bone and making 140 for 4 + years. I'd say he'd have been at least 148 on fight night. And Whitaker would have been about 150. Let's not forget that Whitaker had just been removed from lightweight less than 2 years at the time. Chavez
had been there for 4 years and still looked bigger than nearly all the 140 pounders he fought there. I ask this: which 140 pounders that looked bigger than Chavez did he actually face at 140?

[divac]

You can't be serious. So you're saying Chavez came into the rind 142-144 pounds?
No way in hell. He had been pretty much cut to the bone and making 140 for 4 + years. I'd say he'd have been at least 148 on fight night. And Whitaker would have been about 150. Let's not forget that Whitaker had just been removed from lightweight less than 2 years at the time. Chavez
had been there for 4 years and still looked bigger than nearly all the 140 pounders he fought there. I ask this: which 140 pounders that looked bigger than Chavez did he actually face at 140?

Why would Chavez climb the scales dehydrating himself to 142 lbs if he could max out at 148 lbs as you say?????

I vividly remember Chavez being questioned about his weight in the spanish newspapers right after he got off the scales......and Chavez' response was, "fully conditioned, that is what I could make, were ready to fight."

Interesting to note that fighters fighting under the Main Events banner like Melrick Taylor, Evander Holyfield, Pernell Whitaker and others had full access to the best weight training and nutritional specialist in the world.

Fighters like JC Chavez and Roberto Duran who came from the old school mold, I doubt ever lifted a weight in their life.

If Chavez cold tip the scales weighin more, I doubt he'd dehydrate himself to 142 lbs for no purpose, when he could have come in weighing the contracted limit of 145 lbs!


Btw Scientist, if Chavez had been drying or cutting himself to the bone as you say, prior to fighting Whitaker....why is it that almost a decade later he's still fighting Tszyu at 140 lbs and 12 years after in 2005 he's still fighting Ivan Robinson weighing 143 lbs??????

I know it, you know it.....Chavez was not a Welterweight!!!

[sweet_scientist]

Why would Chavez climb the scales dehydrating himself to 142 lbs if he could max out at 148 lbs as you say?????

I vividly remember Chavez being questioned about his weight in the spanish newspapers right after he got off the scales......and Chavez' response was, "fully conditioned, that is what I could make, were ready to fight."

Interesting to note that fighters fighting under the Main Events banner like Melrick Taylor, Evander Holyfield, Pernell Whitaker and others had full access to the best weight training and nutritional specialist in the world.

Fighters like JC Chavez and Roberto Duran who came from the old school mold, I doubt ever lifted a weight in their life.

If Chavez cold tip the scales weighin more, I doubt he'd dehydrate himself to 142 lbs for no purpose, when he could have come in weighing the contracted limit of 145 lbs!

How much of a hassle is it to rehydrate 6 pounds though? That's nothing. You don't have to have killed yourself dropping weight if you're only going to put on 6 pounds over night. I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me Chavez was weighing 148 on dight night during much of his junior welter days. Again, what's so surprising about that?

As for fighters like Chavez and Duran not doing any weights, sure, that's true, and I dare say either would have Jose Luis Castillo done any weights, despite coming into the ring 15 pounds heavier than the weight limit for most of his fights :good

[sweet_scientist]

Btw Scientist, if Chavez had been drying or cutting himself to the bone as you say, prior to fighting Whitaker....why is it that almost a decade later he's still fighting Tszyu at 140 lbs and 12 years after in 2005 he's still fighting Ivan Robinson weighing 143 lbs??????

I know it, you know it.....Chavez was not a Welterweight!!!

And why was he weighing in the 150's against Willy Wise, Ken Singurani, Terry Thomas? :D

There's plenty of fights where Chavez was weighing like a welterweight during the early 90's too.

[divac]

How much of a hassle is it to rehydrate 6 pounds though? That's nothing. You don't have to have killed yourself dropping weight if you're only going to put on 6 pounds over night. I wouldn't be surprised if someone told me Chavez was weighing 148 on dight night during much of his junior welter days. Again, what's so surprising about that?

As for fighters like Chavez and Duran not doing any weights, sure, that's true, and I dare say either would have Jose Luis Castillo done any weights, despite coming into the ring 15 pounds heavier than the weight limit for most of his fights :good

Castillo is a different story all together.....he was big for a lightweight, something that JC Chavez was not.
Castillo made a career out of doing what Arturo Gatti did, which was master the art of dehyrating and coming in at fight night with a significant weight advantage over an opponent.

It cant be said that Chavez did what Oscar Dlh made a career of doing.
It cant be said that Chavez was sucessful because he was the bigger man.....to the contrary, much of the time he was the smaller man in the ring.....Mayweather, Rosario, Taylor, Whitaker......I believe were all naturally bigger fighters than JC Chavez.

To the contrary, and I believe you will agree, size to Chavez' favor was never a factor in his greatness.

[divac]

And why was he weighing in the 150's against Willy Wise, Ken Singurani, Terry Thomas? :D

There's plenty of fights where Chavez was weighing like a welterweight during the early 90's too.

Yeah....and looking and fighting like shit with flab all over his body!:lol:

Chavez said it himself like I told you Scientist, fully conditioned, that was what he could make vs Whitaker......

.....against the likes you just mentioned, he was'nt conditioned period, much less fully conditioned!:lol:

[hdog]

Castillo is a different story all together.....he was big for a lightweight, something that JC Chavez was not.
Castillo made a career out of doing what Arturo Gatti did, which was master the art of dehyrating and coming in at fight night with a significant weight advantage over an opponent.

It cant be said that Chavez did what Oscar Dlh made a career of doing.
It cant be said that Chavez was sucessful because he was the bigger man.....to the contrary, much of the time he was the smaller man in the ring.....Mayweather, Rosario, Taylor, Whitaker......I believe were all naturally bigger fighters than JC Chavez.

To the contrary, and I believe you will agree, size to Chavez' favor was never a factor in his greatness.

Veering off course a bit, I think Gatti's secret was Lasix.

[rekcutnevets]

Whitaker did not duck Chavez by going to 147. He moved up to 140 to face Chavez, he had been calling him out for a while. It was hard to set up a fight between the two, since Chavez was under King and Whitaker under Duva. Whitaker was HBO, Chavez Showtime.

Whitaker stated he wanted to prove he was the best in the world pound for pound. McGirt was the next closest claimant other than Chavez. When it did not look like a fight with Chavez could be made, he decided to challenge McGirt. Just before the McGirt fight, Chavez and Whitaker's people struck a deal. They were to fight each other, whether Whitaker won or lost vs. McGirt, in the fall of that year. If Whitaker won, it would be for Whitaker's title. If Whitaker lost, it would be for Chavez' title.

[Robbi]

6 years past his best? Are you joking? He was slightly past his best, he was past his prime maybe a year or two prior. You're telling me he was past his best by the Meldrick Taylor bout as well? Get real.


:bush

[TBooze]

6 years past his best? Are you joking? He was slightly past his best, he was past his prime maybe a year or two prior. You're telling me he was past his best by the Meldrick Taylor bout as well? Get real.

Yes, Chavez peaked in 1987 against Edwin Rosario, the signs were there from MayweatherII (89) that Chavez was slipping, even if he was still rather magnificant.

[sweet_scientist]

Yes, Chavez peaked in 1987 against Edwin Rosario, the signs were there from MayweatherII (89) that Chavez was slipping, even if he was still rather magnificant.

I agree that Chavez's peak was at lightweight (as was Whtiaker's) but do you think he continued to deteriorate from say 89 to 93? I think his performacnes over this period on the whole were pretty solid and its hard to see a downward curve. He had some of his most dominant performances in 92-93 with the Camacho and Haugen demolitions. He came out looking pretty good against Whitaker too, though he did end up looking pretty bad in the second half of that fight.

[TBooze]

I agree that Chavez's peak was at lightweight (as was Whtiaker's) but do you think he continued to deteriorate from say 89 to 93? I think his performacnes over this period on the whole were pretty solid and its hard to see a downward curve. He had some of his most dominant performances in 92-93 with the Camacho and Haugen demolitions. He came out looking pretty good against Whitaker too, though he did end up looking pretty bad in the second half of that fight.

Look at MayweatherI and II, yes The Black Mamba was a better fighter for the rematch, but Chavez made hard work of it. Even before that, against Aguilar and Ramirez he was not quite on form...

Post MayweatherII all the way on the road to Whitaker, Chavez was inconsistant compared to theamazing standards he set in 87. Fuentas was not good, ditto Smith and indeed Taylor, but Chavez showed the great ones find ways to win, when everything is not going their way.

And there were some brilliant performances, he was amazingly intense against Haugan and did a number on Camacho, it was just he was past his best.

Take Hagler; he was primmed IMO 77 though to 83 but the Hearns fight is huge part of his legacy and to a degree so is the Mugabi fight.

[Minotauro]

I think it was mainly due to a financial stand point at the time there was no clear 135lbs for him to fight while Taylor and Mayweather were at 140lbs. Also I believe by moving up he became the first Mexican to win world titles in three weight classes this too may have been a factor.

[divac]

One thing I now, if you considered that fight a draw you must be either Mexican or you must go temporarily blind from time to time. Whitaker schooled him.

Its no secret in this forum that I scored Chavez-Whitaker a draw.

Its a matter of opinion, you saying it was a schooling is not going to make it so.

There are loads of posters on this forum that say Hopkins and Wright schooled Jermaine Taylor.....it's not going to make it so.....I agreed with the judges in all those three Jermaine Taylor fight......
....you or anybody else saying somebody was schooled does'nt make it so.

Everything is a matter of taste and opinion, nobodies word in this forum is the Gospel!

[divac]

Whitaker did not duck Chavez by going to 147. He moved up to 140 to face Chavez, he had been calling him out for a while. It was hard to set up a fight between the two, since Chavez was under King and Whitaker under Duva. Whitaker was HBO, Chavez Showtime.

Whitaker stated he wanted to prove he was the best in the world pound for pound. McGirt was the next closest claimant other than Chavez. When it did not look like a fight with Chavez could be made, he decided to challenge McGirt. Just before the McGirt fight, Chavez and Whitaker's people struck a deal. They were to fight each other, whether Whitaker won or lost vs. McGirt, in the fall of that year. If Whitaker won, it would be for Whitaker's title. If Whitaker lost, it would be for Chavez' title.


Sounds like a load of hogwash to me......

I followed the sport intently back in those days, reading anything boxing related I could get my hands on.....

I never heard of such a deal!!!

Quite frankly, what you said does'nt make sense, and I'm quite certain it did'nt unfold the way you described it......why the hell would Chavez fight a difficult puzzle like Pernell Whitaker if Pernell Whitaker would to be coming off of a loss to Buddy McGirt.

A loss by Whitaker to Buddy McGirt would have took all the luster off of a p4p showdown with JC CHavez.
Absolutely, I dont believe what you just described!!!


Pernell Whitaker had just made his jump to the 140 lbs division, what better way to go about getting a fight with Chavez than by tearing up that division and demanding a fight with Chavez??????

.....by going to Welter, if there was any inkling that Chavez would prefer to avoid Pernell, going to Welter would be just the excuse for Chavez not to fight him.


The truth of the story, I heard and read from Lou Duva's mouth himself.....
Up until the fight was actually signed, Duva had wanted to get Chavez to rematch Meldrick Taylor but at Welter.......stating that Pernell Whitaker was'nt just quite ready for Chavez.......

The fact of the matter is that Duva wanted no part of Chavez at juniorwelter. He knew that juniorwelter was a comfortable weight for Chavez.

To make a long story short, Main Events and the Duva's planned it all along.....not only did they not want Pernell Whitaker fighting Chavez at 140 lbs......right after Chavez layed one of the biggest slow beatdowns in boxing history on Meldrick Taylor.....
.....Taylor wanted revenge, but the Duva's smart enough, quickly moved Taylor away to Welter and hoped that Chavez would follow.

The Duva's would have preferred it be Taylor fighting Chavez at Welter, but when Taylor got beatdown by Terry Norris and then Chrisanto Espana.....that plan went out the window.
.......as a result, the Duva's had to go to plan B, which was to match Pernell Whitaker with Chavez, but at Welter where the Duva's felt that might not be Chavez best weight.


I cant blame the Duva's....they were smart and played it correctly for their fighter......
They initially thought that Taylor would be too strong and fast for Chavez as a 140 pounder......
....but when they saw first hand what Chavez did to Meldrick Taylor as a Junior Welter, they wanted no part of him at that weight!

The Duva's plan all along since the minute Chavez beatdown Meldrick Taylor was to land Chavez at Welter, and they accomplished that goal, just not with who they originally wanted Chavez to fight there with.

No question about it, the Duva's ducked Chavez at 140 lbs, they wanted no part of him there.


......and before anybody here goes into a frenzy, notice that I said the Duva's ducked.....not Pernell Whitaker ducked, or Meldrick Taylor ducked!

[sweet_scientist]

Sounds like a load of hogwash to me......

I followed the sport intently back in those days, reading anything boxing related I could get my hands on.....

I never heard of such a deal!!!

Quite frankly, what you said does'nt make sense, and I'm quite certain it did'nt unfold the way you described it......why the hell would Chavez fight a difficult puzzle like Pernell Whitaker if Pernell Whitaker would to be coming off of a loss to Buddy McGirt.

A loss by Whitaker to Buddy McGirt would have took all the luster off of a p4p showdown with JC CHavez.
Absolutely, I dont believe what you just described!!!


It was actually mentioned during the fight coverage of McGirt-Whitaker on HBO that the deal had already been made, win lose or draw. They also mentioned it to Pernell after the fight (that he had a deal already signed to fight Chavez) and I think Pernell made out like he wasn't aware that it was even signed (not sure if he was just playing around or not).

I have to say, I DO believe the Duva's wanted the fight at welterweight (or a catchweight as it turned out) so as to favour Whitaker, but they must not have been too confident going into the Chavez fight given that Pernell had just recieved the toughest fight of his career by far against McGirt. I think they probably would have been more confident before the McGirt fight that Whitaker could beat Chavez. In light of which it DOES make sense that they would have had the Chavez-Whitaker fight ready to go before the McGirt bout even took place.

[brownpimp88]

Why are we criticizing the Duva's for ducking Chavez, I mean don king is the master of making his fighters look good. I don't think it's a coincidence that Felix Trinidad fought nobodies from 1995-1998, King knew his boy wasn't ready for Pernell and fighting Ike at that time would have been a huge risk too.

[rekcutnevets]

divac, all you have to do is watch the HBO broadcast of the McGirt vs. Whitaker fight. They mention the deal before the fight, let you know that Whitaker didn't know of the deal before the fight, and Larry Merchant informs of the deal in his interview after the fight. The Duva's didn't want him looking past McGirt to Chavez.

Duva is a promoter. He does not care about protecting fighters as a first concern, that is a managers job. Promoters want the best deal, and the most that can be made off a fighter. If Whitaker has the title that they are fighting for, they have a little more leverage when they negotiate. The fight ended up on Showtime, so you see the challenger still carried more weight at the negotian table. Making the fight at welter also generates more money. You have a three division titlist defending against a man trying to win a world title in his 4th weight class. It's was nothing about ducking, it was all about dollars.

[divac]

divac, all you have to do is watch the HBO broadcast of the McGirt vs. Whitaker fight. They mention the deal before the fight, let you know that Whitaker didn't know of the deal before the fight, and Larry Merchant informs of the deal in his interview after the fight. The Duva's didn't want him looking past McGirt to Chavez.

Duva is a promoter. He does not care about protecting fighters as a first concern, that is a managers job. Promoters want the best deal, and the most that can be made off a fighter. If Whitaker has the title that they are fighting for, they have a little more leverage when they negotiate. The fight ended up on Showtime, so you see the challenger still carried more weight at the negotian table. Making the fight at welter also generates more money. You have a three division titlist defending against a man trying to win a world title in his 4th weight class. It's was nothing about ducking, it was all about dollars.

As far as the fight not happening at 140 lbs, the Duva's admitted that Pernell was'nt quite ready to take on Chavez right at the time Pernell made his move to the 140 lbs division.

Like I said before, the Duva's manuevered both Taylor and Whitaker away from 140 lbs without as much as talking up a fight with Chavez.

I will guarantee you one thing, had Pernell Whitaker lost to Buddy Mcgirt, there is absolutely no way that Chavez' team or Don King would have touched Pernell Whitaker coming off of a loss.
There would have been nothing to gain moneywise or as far as elevating Chavez' stature as a fighter, but there would have been alot of risk because of Chavez and his team knew that Pernell Whitaker's style did'nt lend itself to look good against.

[sweet_scientist]

Look at MayweatherI and II, yes The Black Mamba was a better fighter for the rematch, but Chavez made hard work of it. Even before that, against Aguilar and Ramirez he was not quite on form...

Post MayweatherII all the way on the road to Whitaker, Chavez was inconsistant compared to theamazing standards he set in 87. Fuentas was not good, ditto Smith and indeed Taylor, but Chavez showed the great ones find ways to win, when everything is not going their way.

And there were some brilliant performances, he was amazingly intense against Haugan and did a number on Camacho, it was just he was past his best.

Take Hagler; he was primmed IMO 77 though to 83 but the Hearns fight is huge part of his legacy and to a degree so is the Mugabi fight.
I think you need to be a bit more flexible with what you consider prime. The way you talk you make it sound like Chavez's prime lasted 45 minutes against Rosario :lol: (What with his being weight drained and sub par in 86 against Laporte and Lockridge and a little off against Ramirez in 88.)

Talking like that you could say Pernell Whitaker peaked in 1989 against Haugen and Ramirez and then then he was 4 years past his prime when he met Chavez. This is of course, bollocks.

Chavez no doubt had his best performance against Rosario, but his prime did not end there. He had some fights where he struggled subsequently (e.g. Mayweather II, Taylor), but he also had some fights where he looked damn near as impressive as he did against Rosario (e.g. Haugen and Camacho).

He was outside his best weight class when he fought at 140, but he wasn't past his prime if you interpret that somewhat loosely so as not to reach an absurd position like saying he had a one fight or one year prime.

I don't think there was much decline between 89-93 at all, other than say perhaps being a bit slower and not as active as he was at lightweight. But hey, you could say that of Pernell Whitaker as well in so far as his speed and workrate at welterweight declined compared to what it was at lightweight.

[divac]

I think you need to be a bit more flexible with what you consider prime. The way you talk you make it sound like Chavez's prime lasted 45 minutes against Rosario :lol: (What with his being weight drained and sub par in 86 against Laporte and Lockridge and a little off against Ramirez in 88.)

Talking like that you could say Pernell Whitaker peaked in 1989 against Haugen and Ramirez and then then he was 4 years past his prime when he met Chavez. This is of course, bollocks.

Chavez no doubt had his best performance against Rosario, but his prime did not end there. He had some fights where he struggled subsequently (e.g. Mayweather II, Taylor), but he also had some fights where he looked damn near as impressive as he did against Rosario (e.g. Haugen and Camacho).

He was outside his best weight class when he fought at 140, but he wasn't past his prime if you interpret that somewhat loosely so as not to reach an absurd position like saying he had a one fight or one year prime.

I don't think there was much decline between 89-93 at all, other than say perhaps being a bit slower and not as active as he was at lightweight. But hey, you could say that of Pernell Whitaker as well in so far as his speed and workrate at welterweight declined compared to what it was at lightweight.

I'm in agreement!

.....of course there was some decline after so many fights and fighting and mantaining himself almost year round in the Gym fighting so often.....
.....but I dont think the decline was that significant that its worth mentioning as an excuse leading to the Whitaker fight.

Chavez had his problems soon after Pernell Whitaker with motivation and keeping up a hectic fight schedule layed upon him by Don King to get to 100-0.......
Fighting so often, and just coming off a few months of putting himself through the rigors of preparing for Pernell Whitaker, Chavez may have been burnt out, needing a rest, when Don King matched him with a fighter on a winning streak (Frankie Randall) and being told by Don King that Randall was a pushover.

In hindsight, trying to reach 100-0 may have cut down on Chavez' prime. There were many times where Chavez talked to the spanish media in Los Angeles admitting to arm and foot injuries......
The man probably needed rest, but Don King needed to make money!:think

[TBooze]

I think you need to be a bit more flexible with what you consider prime. The way you talk you make it sound like Chavez's prime lasted 45 minutes against Rosario :lol: (What with his being weight drained and sub par in 86 against Laporte and Lockridge and a little off against Ramirez in 88.)

Talking like that you could say Pernell Whitaker peaked in 1989 against Haugen and Ramirez and then then he was 4 years past his prime when he met Chavez. This is of course, bollocks.

Chavez no doubt had his best performance against Rosario, but his prime did not end there. He had some fights where he struggled subsequently (e.g. Mayweather II, Taylor), but he also had some fights where he looked damn near as impressive as he did against Rosario (e.g. Haugen and Camacho).

He was outside his best weight class when he fought at 140, but he wasn't past his prime if you interpret that somewhat loosely so as not to reach an absurd position like saying he had a one fight or one year prime.

I don't think there was much decline between 89-93 at all, other than say perhaps being a bit slower and not as active as he was at lightweight. But hey, you could say that of Pernell Whitaker as well in so far as his speed and workrate at welterweight declined compared to what it was at lightweight.

I have already clarified that...

Look at MayweatherI and II, yes The Black Mamba was a better fighter for the rematch, but Chavez made hard work of it. Even before that, against Aguilar and Ramirez he was not quite on form...

Post MayweatherII all the way on the road to Whitaker, Chavez was inconsistant compared to theamazing standards he set in 87. Fuentas was not good, ditto Smith and indeed Taylor, but Chavez showed the great ones find ways to win, when everything is not going their way.

And there were some brilliant performances, he was amazingly intense against Haugan and did a number on Camacho, it was just he was past his best.

Take Hagler; he was primmed IMO 77 though to 83 but the Hearns fight is huge part of his legacy and to a degree so is the Mugabi fight.

[divac]

There is probably some truth to what you're saying Tbooze.....
....worth mentioning is the fact that a fighter like Chavez that fought so often is'nt going to come in 100% focused and ready everytime out.....
.....some fighters you're going to get up more for than others and train a little bit harder for.
If you remember the Camacho and Haugen fights, these fighters were talkers that got under Chavez' skin.......
.....thats all the motivation Chavez needed for him to get prime for them!:yep

If you go back to Chavez' finest hour, El Chapo Rosario also talked up a good game, even bringing in a witch doctor to put a hex on JC Chavez.

The hex by Rosario's witch doctor is who's responsible for bringing out Chavez trademark red head band. I believe it was given to Chavez by someone in his entourage to ward evil spirits, and it became a trademark for Chavez for each of his fights!

Motivation or lack of was probably more responsible with a few of Chavez less than stellar performances.
Ultimately for most greats, its that lack of motivation in combination with injury that gets them beat!

[sweet_scientist]

There is probably some truth to what you're saying Tbooze.....
....worth mentioning is the fact that a fighter like Chavez that fought so often is'nt going to come in 100% focused and ready everytime out.....
.....some fighters you're going to get up more for than others and train a little bit harder for.
If you remember the Camacho and Haugen fights, these fighters were talkers that got under Chavez' skin.......
.....thats all the motivation Chavez needed for him to get prime for them!:yep

If you go back to Chavez' finest hour, El Chapo Rosario also talked up a good game, even bringing in a witch doctor to put a hex on JC Chavez.

The hex by Rosario's witch doctor is who's responsible for bringing out Chavez trademark red head band. I believe it was given to Chavez by someone in his entourage to ward evil spirits, and it became a trademark for Chavez for each of his fights!

Motivation or lack of was probably more responsible with a few of Chavez less than stellar performances.
Ultimately for most greats, its that lack of motivation in combination with injury that gets them beat!

True words here. Motivation is a key factor. Age makes fighters decline but its usually when there is no motivation there that there is a huge drop off in performance.

Re the Rosario fight, I think Rosario actually called Chavez's mother a slut as well before the fight.

I remember reading an article where Chavez said he and everyone in his entourage started crying in the dressing room after the fight.

He was UP for that fight, no question.

[TBooze]

True words here. Motivation is a key factor. Age makes fighters decline but its usually when there is no motivation there that there is a huge drop off in performance.

Re the Rosario fight, I think Rosario actually called Chavez's mother a slut as well before the fight.

I remember reading an article where Chavez said he and everyone in his entourage started crying in the dressing room after the fight.

He was UP for that fight, no question.

The scarey thing about that fight, is that Rosario's wife/girlfriend made their young son (think he was 9) watch the entire fight in tears from ringside...

[sweet_scientist]

The scarey thing about that fight, is that Rosario's wife/girlfriend made their young son (think he was 9) watch the entire fight in tears from ringside...

Yikes. I'd like to know the mental state of that kid today...

[rekcutnevets]

divac, you can't guarantee the fight would not have happened if Whitaker lost to McGirt. You can say you don't believe it would happen, but you can't guarantee it. I'm still taking the HBO team's, Lou Duva's, and Pernell Whitaker's word for it over yours. Especially since they said it before the Chavez fight took place. I have never seen where any of the Duvas said Whitaker was not ready for Chavez at 140. I used to read in magazines of Whitaker, and his team, calling Chavez out from the time he was at lightweight. I might buy this Chavez not as good at 147 crap if he had been facing a natural 147 pounder in Whitaker. 147 is two divisions up from Whitaker's normal weight.

If you really thought that fight was a draw, you aren't going to believe anything other than excuses for why he didn't beat Whitaker. Go back and watch the fight. Chavez wins rounds 1,2,5,and 9. That's it. Chavez' attitude, and remarks, told the real story. He said he would not fight Whitaker again, and wouldn't face a southpaw again, when the fight was over. Does that sound like something a person who didn't feel defeated would say?

[divac]

divac, you can't guarantee the fight would not have happened if Whitaker lost to McGirt. You can say you don't believe it would happen, but you can't guarantee it. I'm still taking the HBO team's, Lou Duva's, and Pernell Whitaker's word for it over yours. Especially since they said it before the Chavez fight took place. I have never seen where any of the Duvas said Whitaker was not ready for Chavez at 140. I used to read in magazines of Whitaker, and his team, calling Chavez out from the time he was at lightweight. I might buy this Chavez not as good at 147 crap if he had been facing a natural 147 pounder in Whitaker. 147 is two divisions up from Whitaker's normal weight.

If you really thought that fight was a draw, you aren't going to believe anything other than excuses for why he didn't beat Whitaker. Go back and watch the fight. Chavez wins rounds 1,2,5,and 9. That's it. Chavez' attitude, and remarks, told the real story. He said he would not fight Whitaker again, and wouldn't face a southpaw again, when the fight was over. Does that sound like something a person who didn't feel defeated would say?

Lou Duva said it in one of the promotional pre-fight shows leading to Chavez-Whitaker.......Duva was being questioned on why the fight had'nt happened soon after Chavez' fight with Meldrick Taylor......
.....if I had only read it, It would be a possibility that Duva's words were misconstrued.....but I heard it from the Fat mans mouth!

Part of what destroyed Meldrick Taylor mentally imo was that he wanted badly a rematch with Chavez......but the Duva's steered him away from 140 lbs, and away from a possible rematch.
.....and they did the same with Pernell Whitaker....The Duva's wanted Chavez at 147 lbs!

......and as far as the Chavez-Whitaker fight, the last time I score it which was several years back, I actually re-scored it 6-5-1 in favor of Chavez.
I'll stick with my original score however.
I'm the type of scorer that will judge like most judges do.....I dont give a whole lot of credence to punches landed that are meant and landed as guage finders.
Whitaker landed alot of jabs while on the backpedal that had nothing behind them, they were more to guage than to do damage...and yet they're counted on punchstat.
Its the reason why I give little to no credence to punchstat.

I dont want to get into rediscussing the whole Chavez-Whitaker fight.
.....but if you have the Showtime version, that whole crew was a joke.
They had the fight about even after 10 rounds, then they claim robbery of the century when they announced the draw!
They were even talking up controversy before the fight even ended.
Fight crews like Showtime and HBO love to feed off of controversy.....it sells....and if there is'nt any controversy present, they make up something to be controversial about......
In the process, most who tune in to watch the fight know little about the nuances of the sport, and are brainwashed into believing everything spewed out of these broadcasters mouths.

The same goes for print......I know alot of people who would say Whitaker was robbed vs Chavez just because they read the Sports Illustrated cover that read ROBBED!


.....and btw, I think you have DLH confused with Chavez.
I never heard Chavez say he would'nt fight Whitaker again.

You never saw Chavez smile or jump for Joy as John Ruiz did when they announced a bogus draw in his third fight with Holyfield......
.....after the fight with Whitaker, I heard Chavez on several spanish stations claim that Whitaker was a tough nut to crack, "he was a very tricky guy who did alot of running and did'nt was'nt there to fight." were the words of Chavez.
....... but that he thought he pressed the fight enough for the win.
Chavez was both dissapointed in his performance (he thought he could have done more) and the result!

Ultimately Chavez went back to 140 lbs because he found out that his body could'nt properly and fully conditioned reach 147 lbs.
Had Whitaker wanted Chavez again, he could have said so and stated, " I'll go down to 140 and whoop his ass.....but I never heard anything of the such from Pernell Whitaker......as we know, Whitaker stayed and ended his career as a Welter......Chavez as a Junior Welter.

In Chavez' brief climbs back to 147 lbs, he looked undiciplined and out of shape!

[rekcutnevets]

Chavez was quoted as saying he wouldn't fight a southpaw, and no interest in facing Whitaker again. I just can't find the quote now, my apologies. They may have mentioned it in the prefight build up to Chavez vs. Randall.

Taylor fought Chavez in 1990, I believe in March. I remember it being advertised on the Douglas vs. Tyson broadcast, and that was in February on 1990. Whitaker moved to 140 in 1992. They felt he was ready for Chavez by that time. It looked as though a deal could not be reached, and Whitaker challenged McGirt.

I don't know what you are talking about with backward stepping, and simply touching with the jab. He beat Chavez up. He did more damage to him then Meldrick Taylor did. He landed more meaningful punches than Taylor did. Whitaker never looked close to folding against Chavez. He made Chavez look a little shaky though. Remember all those "...if he could punch... if he could punch, Bobby..." lines from Pacheco. That was around the time he put Chavez against the ropes, and unloaded on him.

[divac]

Chavez was quoted as saying he wouldn't fight a southpaw, and no interest in facing Whitaker again. I just can't find the quote now, my apologies. They may have mentioned it in the prefight build up to Chavez vs. Randall.

Taylor fought Chavez in 1990, I believe in March. I remember it being advertised on the Douglas vs. Tyson broadcast, and that was in February on 1990. Whitaker moved to 140 in 1992. They felt he was ready for Chavez by that time. It looked as though a deal could not be reached, and Whitaker challenged McGirt.

I don't know what you are talking about with backward stepping, and simply touching with the jab. He beat Chavez up. He did more damage to him then Meldrick Taylor did. He landed more meaningful punches than Taylor did. Whitaker never looked close to folding against Chavez. He made Chavez look a little shaky though. Remember all those "...if he could punch... if he could punch, Bobby..." lines from Pacheco. That was around the time he put Chavez against the ropes, and unloaded on him.

I agree, Whitaker did unload some hurt on Chavez......it came pretty close after the round where Whitaker unloaded two advertent low blows....

Would you care to tell me in how many rounds Whitaker unloaded on Chavez in the manner you state?????

I rest my case, you still have to judge the other 10 rounds, the fight does'nt end and a verdict given based on two rounds!!!:deal

Since you've advised me to revisit the fight, I'll advise you to count the rounds in which Pernell Whitaker was in full retreat for nearly the entire round!

[divac]

Whitaker won 9 to 3. It was a dominant performance, I really don't see how you can say it was close. It was very obvious from teh action inside the ring that Whitaker clearly won and did so convincingly. The decision was ridiculous. You can present all the argument you want, anybody that watches the fight is gonna think you're insane.

For all you youngsters out there who have'nt seen Whitaker-Chavez, I'd invite everyone of you to somehow get a hold of the fight, and judge for themselves what the controversy was all about.

Just about every soul thats seen this fight with me claiming beforehand that Whitaker was blatantly robbed, has come out of our viewing with a different opinion when I've forced them to score with pencil and paper!:yep

[TBooze]

For all you youngsters out there who have'nt seen Whitaker-Chavez

What!!! I am 33, you make seem like you got to be some ancient veteran to of seen it. It was in 93... 1993, not 18;)

[My dinner with Conteh]

Whitaker 8-4. Bad decision. Unless you score points for "Ring Latinship" and "Effective Mexicaness. :good

[divac]

What!!! I am 33, you make seem like you got to be some ancient veteran to of seen it. It was in 93... 1993, not 18;)

:lol: My call was mostly to posters who post in the general forum but who sneak a peak into the classic section.

There's alot of youngsters out there under 25 that were somewhere near grade school when Chavez-Whitaker came about.

These youngsters take for granted that Chavez-Whitaker was a true robbery.
I invite them to judge for themselves!:deal :hey

[sweet_scientist]

Whitaker 8-4. Bad decision. Unless you score points for "Ring Latinship" and "Effective Mexicaness. :good

:lol:

[sweet_scientist]

For all you youngsters out there who have'nt seen Whitaker-Chavez, I'd invite everyone of you to somehow get a hold of the fight, and judge for themselves what the controversy was all about.

Just about every soul thats seen this fight with me claiming beforehand that Whitaker was blatantly robbed, has come out of our viewing with a different opinion when I've forced them to score with pencil and paper!:yep

How many souls have you converted? Your best mates Paco and Fernando?

[My dinner with Conteh]

How many souls have you converted? Your best mates Paco and Fernando?


Ha ha yeah. He also converted an old Aztec tribe that had never seen a TV before and the entire Rodriguez clan- a family of goat herders from Monterrey. The sole exception being youngest son 'Chico', who made the mistake of saying "I thought de black boy deed ok".


Chico disappeared late that night and has never been seen since. :-(

[sweet_scientist]

Ha ha yeah. He also converted an old Aztec tribe that had never seen a TV before and the entire Rodriguez clan- a family of goat herders from Monterrey. The sole exception being youngest son 'Chico', who made the mistake of saying "I thought de black boy deed ok".


Chico disappeared late that night and has never been seen since. :-(

:yep

[JohnThomas1]

I think you've topped even your own lofty comedy there dinner hahaha

[jyuza]

Whitaker 8-4. Bad decision. Unless you score points for "Ring Latinship" and "Effective Mexicaness. :good

:yep

[rekcutnevets]

divac, I'm not going to get into the insults. I'm saying I have scored the fight on paper. Chavez won rounds 1,2,5,and 9. Whitaker rounds 3,4,6,7,8,10,11,and 12.

I'm through here, because I have not even been on subject with the original thread. I just been posting away.

[MRBILL]

I always thought Chavez looked gaunt at 130 and very lean and dry at 135... 140 became home for Chavez cuz his body and tone seemed right there... 140 was Chavez' home base to the max... Chavez never proved he could handle "A" fighters at 141 to 147 pounds...

I have "Chavez-Whitaker" rolling right now for review.... Chavez at 142 is strong and aggressive, but also slower and missing many shots against the savvy and spry 145 pound Whitaker in Texas '93....

MR.BILL

[zadfrak]

Why are we criticizing the Duva's for ducking Chavez, I mean don king is the master of making his fighters look good. I don't think it's a coincidence that Felix Trinidad fought nobodies from 1995-1998, King knew his boy wasn't ready for Pernell and fighting Ike at that time would have been a huge risk too.


amen.

That's back when Braverman was doing the matchmaking for DKP and I spoke to him a few times. In his candid way--if you ever spoke to the guy you know what I mean--he said his job was to get Chavez wins, not losses. And that pretty much sums up the opponent list compared to the fighters available at that weight to fight.

[PowerPuncher]

Whitaker 8-4. Bad decision. Unless you score points for "Ring Latinship" and "Effective Mexicaness. :good

:lol:

[PowerPuncher]

The conventional answer is that Chavez wanted to go after Roger Mayweather, who was building a reputation at 140 as the Mexican assassin after taking out the likes of Rodolfo Gonzalez, Rene Arredondo and Mauricio Aceves. Mayweather was also talking shit about Chavez of course, and Chavez naturally wanted to shut him up.

He might have also made the move contemplating a possible showdown with Meldrick Taylor. Meldrick was the prodigy of the Olympics, and had a great win against p4p'er Buddy McGirt under his belt. Around 88-89, he was considered a better fighter than Pernell Whitaker, who despite all his talent, had only managed to rack up a couple of broken hands and ankle amidst a few quality wins as a pro.

For these reasons, perhaps he overlooked a possible matchup with Whitaker at 135 and went to 140.

Personally, I think these reasons helped rationalise a move for Chavez to 140, but it wasn't without the thought that Whitaker was too risky a proposition for not enough reward to entertain at the time. No doubt Chavez would have seen the Whitaker-Ramirez fight, and would have known that Pea was robbed. He would have heard about the near shutout he put on Roger Mayweather as well if not actually seen it. But without Whitaker having a belt, Chavez had little to gain from facing a potentially dangerous opponent like Whitaker. Mayweather had a belt at 140, and Chavez already took the belt at 135 that Ramirez stole from Pea.

By facing two men that Whitaker actually beat, Ramirez and Mayweather, one could argue that Chavez wasn't too keen on facing Whitaker. I don't think he was scared of Whitaker, but it made bad business sense to fight someone without a belt, who was coming off a "loss".

All that being said, I would have liked to see Chavez attempt to unify or clean out 135 seeing that 135 was his best weight class (where he looked the best). It's a hole in his career that he never unified a division, despite facing a lot of good/excellent fighters throughout it. IMO there was no real need for the Mayweather rematch and the string of fights that came after it leading up to the Taylor fight (Was the first Mayweather fight not conclusive enough? Was Mayweather beating really QUALITY Mexican fighters? Didn't Mayweather talk shit about everyone?). He should have spent that time at lightweight and attempted a move up to 140 late 1990 and tried to make a fight with Taylor early 1991.

great post :good thread/