Does Monzon get less credit?

[youngmonzon]

Does Carlos Monzon get less credit as an ATG because so many of his defenses were against non Americans?

It seems that most American writers and fans fail to understand how good an era the 1970s were for middleweights.

Non Americans like Valdez, Bouttier, Benvenuti, Mundine, and Napoles were very good fighters and Monzon dominated them. Valdez, Benvenuti and Napoles were arguably Greats.

Thoughts?

[Sweet Pea]

He gets as much credit he deserves for dominating a very good era of MW's. He rates very highly with most as well. I haven't seen many who would have him out of their top 20, many have him in their top 15 as well. I personally have him #18, nothing against him, just more do to with the fact that in a sport that has been going on over 120 years stretching from 8 to 17 weight classes, it's hard to rate too high when you're a one weight champ. #2 all time MW for me.

The whole deal where people from other countries blame their fighters not getting recognized for not being American is pretty lame. If you're a boxing fan, you know the boxers, regardless of where they reside.

[Longhhorn71]

Does Carlos Monzon get less credit as an ATG because so many of his defenses were against non Americans?

It seems that most American writers and fans fail to understand how good an era the 1970s were for middleweights.

Non Americans like Valdez, Bouttier, Benvenuti, Mundine, and Napoles were very good fighters and Monzon dominated them. Valdez, Benvenuti and Napoles were arguably Greats.

Thoughts?

Ironically, many of the top American fighters in a similar weight range were up a Lightheavy during the Golden Age of Lightheavies. Monzon never moved up....maybe because Galindez was already there.

Monzon was a great international fighter....a top 3 MW along with Greb and Hagler ( you pick the order) (I put SSR as the ATG welterweight)

[Ted Spoon]

Monzon is historically linked with Hagler, which causes the problem - the former fought all over the world during a very popular Heavyweight era while the latter fought against the darlings of the 80's during a weaker Heavyweight era.

All eyes were on the shaven skulled-one when he tangled with Duran, blasted Hearn's and did the tango with Leonard, whereas Monzon's consistent brilliance was somewhat buried underneath the booming Heavyweight scene.

It's to do with documentation - Hagler will always be revered more by the mainstream, but those who know of Monzon rightfully give him his due as one of the very best.

[elindiomonzon]

monzon was a beast. he knew me since i was a lil kid, my father was one of his best friends he used to train me when i was 6. i have him in my top 3 MW of all time with hagler and greb you can pick the order ,all three were awesome in different ways.he gets all the credit he deserves the things is that some people who claim to "know" about boxing dont know him.

[Pat_Lowe]

monzon was a beast. he knew me since i was a lil kid, my father was one of his best friends he used to train me when i was 6. i have him in my top 3 MW of all time with hagler and greb you can pick the order ,all three were awesome in different ways.he gets all the credit he deserves the things is that some people who claim to "know" about boxing dont know him.

Feel free to give us an inside perspective on the man, I'm very interested to hear it. Was he as bad as I think he is? Was his anger problem evident?

[elindiomonzon]

he was like a second father to me. i got to recognise that he was mean.with one look you already knew what he wanted to tell you not because he was a bad person but because he was so intimidating he had that look in his face that i already get used to because my father has the same look that if you look at him eye to eye you had to turn around quickly or you will shit in your pants let me tell you that.he didnt have an anger problem that was just when he was a little drunk.he was a very loveable person he used to teach me a lot of things besides boxing.i udes to live in the same hood that he used to live when he was young but he took us out of there because he didnt want his best friend(my father)keep living that way.so right now im leaving in a low middle class neigborhood thanks to him, men i loved that guy , every anniversary of his death i go to the gym and train all day and believing that one day i will be like him.

[elindiomonzon]

??

[Dave's Top Ten]

Monzon is historically linked with Hagler, which causes the problem - the former fought all over the world during a very popular Heavyweight era while the latter fought against the darlings of the 80's during a weaker Heavyweight era.

All eyes were on the shaven skulled-one when he tangled with Duran, blasted Hearn's and did the tango with Leonard, whereas Monzon's consistent brilliance was somewhat buried underneath the booming Heavyweight scene.

It's to do with documentation - Hagler will always be revered more by the mainstream, but those who know of Monzon rightfully give him his due as one of the very best.

Sure but its also a reason why he could be overestimated - to compensate for his lack of profile amongst contemporary fans.

[youngmonzon]

He gets as much credit he deserves for dominating a very good era of MW's. He rates very highly with most as well. I haven't seen many who would have him out of their top 20, many have him in their top 15 as well. I personally have him #18, nothing against him, just more do to with the fact that in a sport that has been going on over 120 years stretching from 8 to 17 weight classes, it's hard to rate too high when you're a one weight champ. #2 all time MW for me.

The whole deal where people from other countries blame their fighters not getting recognized for not being American is pretty lame. If you're a boxing fan, you know the boxers, regardless of where they reside.

Who would you consider the number one MW?

[Ted Spoon]

Sure but its also a reason why he could be overestimated - to compensate for his lack of profile amongst contemporary fans.

A possibility if Monzon's career was shrouded in as much mystery as his personaility is, but if you want to learn about him, it's all there.

Monzon rightfully stands side-by-side Hagler as one of the very best, but technically, Monzon's extra defences and defeats of Benvenuti, Griffith, a peak Briscoe and Valdez should place him in a slightly higher echelon than Marvelous Marvin when directly compared.

Carlos is the most accomplished of all the Middleweights.

[JohnThomas1]

??

Don't worry about him, he's the resident 14yo.

[Sweet Pea]

Who would you consider the number one MW?Harry Greb.

[zippy]

Monzon suffers from lack of recognition probably because he didn't fight like he would die in order to win, like the impression you got when you saw Hagler or Robinson or heard about with Greb. He fought as hard as he needed to, what I call the european style. That is kind of a dated idea now, but back then the term meant something. He didn't like slugests, had no real defining fight, and could be a little boring to watch.

Maybe it's only us Americans who have a problem acknowledging him.

[Russell]

he was like a second father to me. i got to recognise that he was mean.with one look you already knew what he wanted to tell you not because he was a bad person but because he was so intimidating he had that look in his face that i already get used to because my father has the same look that if you look at him eye to eye you had to turn around quickly or you will shit in your pants let me tell you that.he didnt have an anger problem that was just when he was a little drunk.he was a very loveable person he used to teach me a lot of things besides boxing.i udes to live in the same hood that he used to live when he was young but he took us out of there because he didnt want his best friend(my father)keep living that way.so right now im leaving in a low middle class neigborhood thanks to him, men i loved that guy , every anniversary of his death i go to the gym and train all day and believing that one day i will be like him.

Yeah, my bullshit-meter just broke.

Off the fuckin' charts!

[elindiomonzon]

i dont give a shit if u dont believe what i said ,i was just telling pat_lowe ,it wasnt for u bitch.

[Russell]

.so right now im leaving in a low middle class neigborhood thanks to him,

Thanks for clearing that up, it just became even more apparent. :lol::lol::lol:

[Marciano Frazier]

Does Carlos Monzon get less credit as an ATG because so many of his defenses were against non Americans?

It seems that most American writers and fans fail to understand how good an era the 1970s were for middleweights.

Non Americans like Valdez, Bouttier, Benvenuti, Mundine, and Napoles were very good fighters and Monzon dominated them. Valdez, Benvenuti and Napoles were arguably Greats.

Thoughts? Yes, absolutely. Furthermore, I think Monzon already tends to get less credit because he was a non-American who didn't speak English and hardly ever fought in America. People just don't see what he did as significant, because the fights weren't built up into major American television events, and he was hardly ever seen or interviewed on American television.

[brooklyn1550]

I don't think so

Monzon gets a lot of credit from fans. I see him rated number 1 and 2 and middleweight quite a bit. If people give him less credit because his best wins were against non-Americans, they are idiots.

[red cobra]

Carlos Monzon has gotten a bum deal over the years by so called "experts" and less than knowledgeable fans because:
1. He spoke no English.
2. He retired in 1977, before many boxing fans were born.
3. He fought mainly in Europe and South America.
4. His style, admittedly, wasn't as exciting as say, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns or Ray leonard. He was subtle rather than flashy.
5. There isn't as much video available on him as on more latter day stars.
6. Monzon's opposition is underestimated.
Of all these reasons, I'd say that #6 is most interesting, in that many boxing fans, particularly the younger ones, don't understand that Monzon's rather subtle, understated and very efficient boxing style, when combined with a highly developed boxing brain, is ultimately far more effective and lethal than the spectacular, flashy styles of the "gifted" performers, who, in many cases, eventually lose their "gifts", and have no foundation of ring brains, or generalship, and fundamental skills to fall back on. Such intangibles, like being a proven 15 round fighter, and mental toughness as well as physical toughness to go with the knowledge of when to execute a simple one-two punch, instead of a "shoeshine" flurry, with all the bells and whistles and flashiness, that so many superficially talented fighters commonly do. I'd say that in the days of the 15 round title limit, with his cold, calculating, debilitating style, where he would, through an inner mental toughness, and an almost arrogant "I can't be beaten" coolness, and knowing just when to box and when to throw that big right hand, Monzon was one of the few unbeatable champions, an elite among elites, with a style not appreciated by fans who don't understand the subtlties of boxing.

[Lefty Supremacy]

Carlos Monzon has gotten a bum deal over the years by so called "experts" and less than knowledgeable fans because:
1. He spoke no English.
2. He retired in 1977, before many boxing fans were born.
3. He fought mainly in Europe and South America.
4. His style, admittedly, wasn't as exciting as say, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns or Ray leonard. He was subtle rather than flashy.
5. There isn't as much video available on him as on more latter day stars.
6. Monzon's opposition is underestimated.
Of all these reasons, I'd say that #6 is most interesting, in that many boxing fans, particularly the younger ones, don't understand that Monzon's rather subtle, understated and very efficient boxing style, when combined with a highly developed boxing brain, is ultimately far more effective and lethal than the spectacular, flashy styles of the "gifted" performers, who, in many cases, eventually lose their "gifts", and have no foundation of ring brains, or generalship, and fundamental skills to fall back on. Such intangibles, like being a proven 15 round fighter, and mental toughness as well as physical toughness to go with the knowledge of when to execute a simple one-two punch, instead of a "shoeshine" flurry, with all the bells and whistles and flashiness, that so many superficially talented fighters commonly do. I'd say that in the days of the 15 round title limit, with his cold, calculating, debilitating style, where he would, through an inner mental toughness, and an almost arrogant "I can't be beaten" coolness, and knowing just when to box and when to throw that big right hand, Monzon was one of the few unbeatable champions, an elite among elites, with a style not appreciated by fans who don't understand the subtlties of boxing.

Good post.

I'd have to say that Monzon was the only boxer I ever watched who didn't just think he was going to win, but rather he "knew" he was going to win. I don't know if you know what I'm saying because it's rather indescribable. He just... emanated a different sort of confidence from everyone else.

[youngmonzon]

Harry Greb.

I do not believe Greb's windmill style would enable him to beat Monzon. Monzon's jab, right hand, and most importantly his coolness under fire would cause him to win a decision. Perhaps a late stoppage. Fight could resemble the first match with Valdez. After all Greb did lose to Tiger Flowers (twice).

[youngmonzon]

Carlos Monzon has gotten a bum deal over the years by so called "experts" and less than knowledgeable fans because:
1. He spoke no English.
2. He retired in 1977, before many boxing fans were born.
3. He fought mainly in Europe and South America.
4. His style, admittedly, wasn't as exciting as say, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns or Ray leonard. He was subtle rather than flashy.
5. There isn't as much video available on him as on more latter day stars.
6. Monzon's opposition is underestimated.
Of all these reasons, I'd say that #6 is most interesting, in that many boxing fans, particularly the younger ones, don't understand that Monzon's rather subtle, understated and very efficient boxing style, when combined with a highly developed boxing brain, is ultimately far more effective and lethal than the spectacular, flashy styles of the "gifted" performers, who, in many cases, eventually lose their "gifts", and have no foundation of ring brains, or generalship, and fundamental skills to fall back on. Such intangibles, like being a proven 15 round fighter, and mental toughness as well as physical toughness to go with the knowledge of when to execute a simple one-two punch, instead of a "shoeshine" flurry, with all the bells and whistles and flashiness, that so many superficially talented fighters commonly do. I'd say that in the days of the 15 round title limit, with his cold, calculating, debilitating style, where he would, through an inner mental toughness, and an almost arrogant "I can't be beaten" coolness, and knowing just when to box and when to throw that big right hand, Monzon was one of the few unbeatable champions, an elite among elites, with a style not appreciated by fans who don't understand the subtlties of boxing.

Great post. I remember watching Monzon take apart Tony Licata (at the time a very highly regarded contender) in 1975. Most notable during that fight was Monzon "arrogant coolness". An amazing performance.

[Sweet Pea]

I do not believe Greb's windmill style would enable him to beat Monzon. Monzon's jab, right hand, and most importantly his coolness under fire would cause him to win a decision. Perhaps a late stoppage. Fight could resemble the first match with Valdez. After all Greb did lose to Tiger Flowers (twice).Greb was half blind and way past his prime when he lost to Tiger Flowers, that is common knowledge(at least among Greb enthusiasts).

In his prime, at MW, Greb 's style is a damn near impossible one to nail down and figure out. Anyways, I rank Greb at the top because of his resume, not so much his head to head ability, though based on head to head you could argue it as well.

[hdog]

Carlos Monzon has gotten a bum deal over the years by so called "experts" and less than knowledgeable fans because:
1. He spoke no English.
2. He retired in 1977, before many boxing fans were born.
3. He fought mainly in Europe and South America.
4. His style, admittedly, wasn't as exciting as say, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns or Ray leonard. He was subtle rather than flashy.
5. There isn't as much video available on him as on more latter day stars.
6. Monzon's opposition is underestimated.
Of all these reasons, I'd say that #6 is most interesting, in that many boxing fans, particularly the younger ones, don't understand that Monzon's rather subtle, understated and very efficient boxing style, when combined with a highly developed boxing brain, is ultimately far more effective and lethal than the spectacular, flashy styles of the "gifted" performers, who, in many cases, eventually lose their "gifts", and have no foundation of ring brains, or generalship, and fundamental skills to fall back on. Such intangibles, like being a proven 15 round fighter, and mental toughness as well as physical toughness to go with the knowledge of when to execute a simple one-two punch, instead of a "shoeshine" flurry, with all the bells and whistles and flashiness, that so many superficially talented fighters commonly do. I'd say that in the days of the 15 round title limit, with his cold, calculating, debilitating style, where he would, through an inner mental toughness, and an almost arrogant "I can't be beaten" coolness, and knowing just when to box and when to throw that big right hand, Monzon was one of the few unbeatable champions, an elite among elites, with a style not appreciated by fans who don't understand the subtlties of boxing.

Monzon had a "I can't believe you're even challenging me" attitude and was one of the smartest fighters I've ever seen.

[My dinner with Conteh]

He doesn't get the credit because the best guy he beat was nowhere near the class of the destructive behemoth that was Tony Tucker. :hi:

[youngmonzon]

He doesn't get the credit because the best guy he beat was nowhere near the class of the destructive behemoth that was Tony Tucker. :hi:

???

[My dinner with Conteh]

???


Are you questioning my rating of Tony Bugner, er, Tucker. ;)

[youngmonzon]

Carlos Monzon is the middleweight tony tucker, Stiff, Boring, and completely void of charisma or entertainment value.

One difference to consider. Monzon is the greatest middleweight ever. Champ for seven years, beat world class opposition consistently and retired without losing the belt.

[elindiomonzon]

One difference to consider. Monzon is the greatest middleweight ever. Champ for seven years, beat world class opposition consistently and retired without losing the belt.

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