Why do so many people on ESB think Calzaghe is P4P #1 or #2?

[sambob]

I'm not trying to start an argument, talk about Floyd, offend Calzaghe fans or anything, but I'm genuinely interested. :thumbsup

I've only seen his fights with Kessler, Bika, Manfredo, and Lacy, so this is why I'm asking.

What Joe does well I think is very impressive. He's obviously one of those tremendously talented natural athletes we see sometimes in boxing like a Floyd Mayweather, a Roy Jones, a Pernel Whitaker, etc etc..

But even though it hasn't made him lose yet, it seems to me there are so many things he does BADLY that I just don't see how he is perceived as being that good. Its obvious he hasn't been in with all that much real big opposition. Mikkel Kessler is very solid, but I really can only base this on watching him fight Calzaghe, as the Andrade fight isn't mmuch to go by. Kessler looked impressive in his fight with Calzaghe, though of course he clearly lost (I think he is amazing at making room for his punches).

Anyway it just frustrates me to no end to see Calzaghe (while fighting Kessler, as I just watched it twice on HBO) lunging in with his head out and getting caught by uppercuts and 1-2s, throwing wide punches that couldn't possibly land, and in his fight with Lacy and Manfredo I noticed that he had a tendency to SLAP instead of punching when he's trying to flurry against fighters on the ropes a la Sugar Ray Leonard (but of course he's slapping not punching so its not the same thing). Also in the Kessler fight I notice him throwing some VERY wild body punches that leave him open, kind of like punches you see thrown in the amateurs against opponents that don't know how to take advantage of it. Also he seems to let himself get out of position at times for no reason at all.

Anyway I really like watching the guy and after watching the Kessler fight am definitely a fan of his, and can't wait until his next fight. :good

But that being said... how is he P4P #2 when he hasn't fought any other real champions or strong contenders, and he makes a lot of mistakes?

And secondly, could maybe some fans from Wales and the rest of the UK recommend some other of his fights to try to dig up? I'd like to see him at his best because even if he has just been fighting WBO mandatories for years, I can't imagine that all of those European fighters whose names I don't recognize are crap.

Sorry for being so long winded but thanks for anyone that actually reads my entire post (at least I use paragraphs!). :hi:

:bbb

[Rumsfeld]

Calzaghe is GROSSLY overrated on this site. It all started with the Lacy victory.

The group delusion is inexplicable.

:smoke

[Rumsfeld]

Well it's not just this site - the Ring Magazine, ESPN, USA Today (and others) all rank him at #3

He said #1 or #2, though, and although it may seem I'm nitpicking, there is a considerable difference.

Incidentally, I have him at #4 based on longevity and defenses, but he's grossly lacking in terms of quality competition.

[C HOP]

Cos he has went 44 fights unbeaten

held the belt for 10 years

fought tremendously great against lacy which proved how a boxer can fight a perfect fight

calzaghe has proven to us brits he can take a punch and box like one of the best

he is a great fighter

Americans have only seen calzaghe over a few number of fights

[Bodysnatcher]

Calzaghe is a non-American who has never fought in the States and who fights in a division traditionally dominated and populated by European fighters.

That explains why many Americans question his P4P status.

[sambob]

The Ring has him at #5 I believe.

And I don't think longevity should really have any effect on it if it hasn't been at a very high level of competition.

And as far as accomplishments, he won the title from Eubank (right?), which is pretty good I guess, and he unified it with Kessler. What else?

[Words]

This is true. He's overrated because he's got an undefeated record and coz he's recently stepped up and cleaned out the division.

However, if he'd have done that 5 or 6 years ago, and if he'd been fighter the top contenders back then instead of waiting for them all to retire, I very much doubt he'd be unbeaten today. Against Roy Jones and James Toney he would've had awful trouble, and even guys like Antwun Echols, Sven Ottke and Glen Johnson would've been able to give him a real hard time. If you stretch that to include Hopkins, Michelcheski, Taylor and Tarver then he might've had a few losses on his resume.

he's a good fighter, but he has flaws. He got caught easily by Kessler, when he tries to overwhelm people with punch volume sometimes he gets careless, and a skilled counterpuncher would take advantage of it. Kessler is not a counter-puncher, he just kept his nerve when Joe was flurrying and hit with the right hand, which really fucked up Joe's gameplan.

However joe is a versatile and experienced champion, so he adapted and won the fight. No doubt he is a great fighter, but he's nothing like as good some people think. he's P4P top 5, behind Mayweather, Pacquaoi, Cotto and Hopkins. Infact I'd possibly rank Hatton above him too, Ricky has better wins and a much higher standard of competition than Calzaghe.

I also reckon that Herol Graham was a more skilled fighters, and Nigel Benn would've really given him hell in his prime. Eubank in his prime possibly the same.

[thewoo]

I'll tell you one thing. By the time Bernard Hopkins had accomplished the same things as Calzage he was number on on the ring rankings. Calzages opponents in defending his WBO title 21 times are not worse than Hopkins all so great 20 defenses of his middlewight title. He consistently beat top guys in his weight class (though it was a weak weight class). And as of recently hsa beaten the 2 hottest guys in his division one whom everyone was picking to beat him at 3/1 odds.

Counting professional and amatuer fights Joe has only lost once in the past 20 years. He has hand speed to rival anyone else in boxing. When he gets hit he fights back twice as hard, he has cleaned out his division and then some and I really wouldn't ppick anyone 175 or lower to beat him right now. I got no problem with people having floyd at number 1 but if someone has Joe at number 1 or 2, I have no problem with that either. As an american I am willing to admit that if he was american he would be getting so much more credit than he does right now.

[Bodysnatcher]

And I am just waiting for the customary `Well, I NEVER said Lacy was a good fighter` argument.

Man, did ANYONE predict a Lacy victory?

Lacy never achieved anything near what Calzaghe has achieved, but the guy was Showtime's darling, Eddie Murphy's favourite fighter, Mr small town all-American superstar who did his ring walk to `Born in the USA` long before Floyd...

But you'll never find anyone who ever actually rated him on this website...no sireee bob...never happened....

[PowerPuncher]

1. Who would you rate above him? Pacman (1dimensional, outboxable), BHOPS (ancient and fighting on the seniors circuit and ducking Calazage), Dawson (excellent but a bit unproven at the elite), Cotto (very good but never fought the no1 Mayweather - turned down Mayweather and the best fighters at 140 and only 2 top 1s at 147), Marquez (very good but getting old), Juan Diaz (never fought the elite)

2. Hes the only fighter in the sport to clean out his division in the last few years.

3. Beating the other top 2 fighters at your weight is rarely achieved, especially while staying unbeaten

4. Unbeaten 10year Champ

5. Hes very complete with few weaknesses and is hard to beat

[Bodysnatcher]

Sven Ottke never would have given Calzaghe a hard time.

Johnson at LH would have been a test, yes, and it's crap that Calzaghe's hands scuppered that match up.

But Ottke?

That's ludicrous.

[sambob]

Calzaghe is a non-American who has never fought in the States and who fights in a division traditionally dominated and populated by European fighters.

That explains why many American question his P4P status.

Well thats nice that you think that, however, I just posted EXACTLY why I am questioning (or asking about rather) his P4P status, and it included NONE of those things.. So why don't you try again?

fought tremendously great against lacy which proved how a boxer can fight a perfect fight


But Lacy isn't that good.. don't you feel that to be at the TOP he needs to dominate some serious competition as well, like Floyd has done??

Oh and also one last thing, I thought P4P was called P4P because it ranks skill regardless of weight! Well Calzaghe has only fought at super middleweight. Guys like Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Juan Marquez, Hopkins, and even to a lesser degree even Hatton have fought in multiple weight classes, against multiple champions.

Calzaghe has only fought two champions/title holders.

[Bodysnatcher]

Incidentally, I'm not a Calzaghe nuthugger.

I think he got some fortunate stoppages against Sheika (who was testing Calzaghe to the max) and Byron Mitchell (although he did hit Mitchell about a million times with no return after he knocked him down).

I also cringe when think about defences against Pudwell and that Salem farce...

But I remember before the Kessler fight, the Calzaghe haters were predicting a Kessler win EVEN AS THEY ADMITTED they'd still pull the whole `should have fought Jones Jr and Toney` argument out their ass if Calzaghe won...

He can't win.

[sambob]

I'll tell you one thing. By the time Bernard Hopkins had accomplished the same things as Calzage he was number on on the ring rankings. Calzages opponents in defending his WBO title 21 times are not worse than Hopkins all so great 20 defenses of his middlewight title. He consistently beat top guys in his weight class (though it was a weak weight class). And as of recently hsa beaten the 2 hottest guys in his division one whom everyone was picking to beat him at 3/1 odds.

Counting professional and amatuer fights Joe has only lost once in the past 20 years. He has hand speed to rival anyone else in boxing. When he gets hit he fights back twice as hard, he has cleaned out his division and then some and I really wouldn't ppick anyone 175 or lower to beat him right now. I got no problem with people having floyd at number 1 but if someone has Joe at number 1 or 2, I have no problem with that either. As an american I am willing to admit that if he was american he would be getting so much more credit than he does right now.

I don't think Hopkins should have been P4P that high either. don't assume so just because I am American too. I never said anything about Hopkins, I am talking about Calzaghe. I don't think Hopkins should have gotten credit just for TITLE DEFENSES. But for the record, he didn't just get credit for title DEFENSES, keep in mind he unified the titles too, and his last defenses were for the UNDISPUTED middleweight championship.

I think Hopkins deserves it NOW for fighting well past the mid 30s (thats where Joe is now, so I'm still waiting on that one for him), and moving up to Light Heavyweight to fight and beat impressively the champ there..

I'm still waiting for recommendations on Calzaghe fights to watch against good opposition. I'd really like to see these.

[Bodysnatcher]

Well thats nice that you think that, however, I just posted EXACTLY why I am questioning (or asking about rather) his P4P status, and it included NONE of those things.. So why don't you try again?



But Lacy isn't that good.. don't you feel that to be at the TOP he needs to dominate some serious competition as well, like Floyd has done??

Oh and also one last thing, I thought P4P was called P4P because it ranks skill regardless of weight! Well Calzaghe has only fought at super middleweight. Guys like Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Juan Marquez, Hopkins, and even to a lesser degree even Hatton have fought in multiple weight classes, against multiple champions.

Calzaghe has only fought two champions/title holders.

Oh, of course it has nothing to do with Calzaghe's nationality or lack of American fight venues.

I DO apologise.

And yes, Lacy is shit...

But how come the guy was regarded as the second coming of Christ pre-Calzaghe?

Obviously it had nothing to do with his nationality.

Because when judging Super Middleweight fighters, whether they are American or not is irrelevant.

[C HOP]

Well thats nice that you think that, however, I just posted EXACTLY why I am questioning (or asking about rather) his P4P status, and it included NONE of those things.. So why don't you try again?



But Lacy isn't that good.. don't you feel that to be at the TOP he needs to dominate some serious competition as well, like Floyd has done??

Oh and also one last thing, I thought P4P was called P4P because it ranks skill regardless of weight! Well Calzaghe has only fought at super middleweight. Guys like Floyd, Pacquiao, Winky, Juan Marquez, Hopkins, and even to a lesser degree even Hatton have fought in multiple weight classes, against multiple champions.

Calzaghe has only fought two champions/title holders.

well if it marks skill then calzaghe easily beats most of the compertion in the pound for pound ranking order, if it rates in over long term achievement then calzaghe will be marked high aswell , if it is ranked over quality of oppersition he will be marked lower , but lacy was a heavily backed favourite in that fight! dnt forget that and chris Eubank was always a dangerous competititor , Mikkel Kessler in his prime a younger , hungrier and dangerous fight was a real talent and calzaghe fought great again! , Calzaghe has a brilliant technique which includes loads of skill and determination to wear down his opponent which he does in most of his fights , he is a great fighter and at 35 and undefeated deserves his respect to be number 2 or 3

cos it doesnt matter if u fight somebody who is crap you get hit in the right place you go down! any 1 of those fighters could of beat him but calzaghe was to good! at

[sean]

I'm not trying to start an argument, talk about Floyd, offend Calzaghe fans or anything, but I'm genuinely interested. :thumbsup

I've only seen his fights with Kessler, Bika, Manfredo, and Lacy, so this is why I'm asking.


What Joe does well I think is very impressive. He's obviously one of those tremendously talented natural athletes we see sometimes in boxing like a Floyd Mayweather, a Roy Jones, a Pernel Whitaker, etc etc..

But even though it hasn't made him lose yet, it seems to me there are so many things he does BADLY that I just don't see how he is perceived as being that good. Its obvious he hasn't been in with all that much real big opposition. Mikkel Kessler is very solid, but I really can only base this on watching him fight Calzaghe, as the Andrade fight isn't mmuch to go by. Kessler looked impressive in his fight with Calzaghe, though of course he clearly lost (I think he is amazing at making room for his punches).

Anyway it just frustrates me to no end to see Calzaghe (while fighting Kessler, as I just watched it twice on HBO) lunging in with his head out and getting caught by uppercuts and 1-2s, throwing wide punches that couldn't possibly land, and in his fight with Lacy and Manfredo I noticed that he had a tendency to SLAP instead of punching when he's trying to flurry against fighters on the ropes a la Sugar Ray Leonard (but of course he's slapping not punching so its not the same thing). Also in the Kessler fight I notice him throwing some VERY wild body punches that leave him open, kind of like punches you see thrown in the amateurs against opponents that don't know how to take advantage of it. Also he seems to let himself get out of position at times for no reason at all.

Anyway I really like watching the guy and after watching the Kessler fight am definitely a fan of his, and can't wait until his next fight. :good

But that being said... how is he P4P #2 when he hasn't fought any other real champions or strong contenders, and he makes a lot of mistakes?

And secondly, could maybe some fans from Wales and the rest of the UK recommend some other of his fights to try to dig up? I'd like to see him at his best because even if he has just been fighting WBO mandatories for years, I can't imagine that all of those European fighters whose names I don't recognize are crap.

Sorry for being so long winded but thanks for anyone that actually reads my entire post (at least I use paragraphs!). :hi:

:bbb





its a fair analysis , i am a calzaghe fan and i would never hide the fact he makes lots of mistakes.

but against that if calzaghe wanted to be a pure boxer, use his foot and hand speed just to give angles get in and get out and take no chances he would not make hardly any mistakes and would not get hit.

its because he is prepared to get hit to get his own shots off he makes all his mistakes , plus the fact he is so eager to get off he sometimes does not think about it being a natural fighter he just lets his hands go even when his feet and body shape are all wrong.

makes him look awkward , but you can see the way when focused he can walk in on an opponent slipping and working at the same time that he is a hard man to keep off.

i rank him 3rd behind mayweayher and paq.

paq is above him because his resume is superior.

but with calzaghe you have to look at him as a whole and what he brings to the table and and then break down the individual flaws to see what type of opponent can take advantage.

he can box from the inside with both hands, combos/variety/speed/angles/head movement /willing to take risks and get hit to get off/when hoit fires back every single time/

on the outside he can be an in and out fighter using footspeed/handspeed/angles/jab/keep it long/slip oncoming bombs /does not get flustered when under heavy artilary/

then you have things like experience /prodigous workrate against every style , be it brawler/cagey/boxer/bomber/spoiler.

then load these up against his faults and see do they hurt him.

some calzaghe fights

eubank-despite always hearing eubank was old and weight drained
eubank was 31 v calzaghe and fought at a high tempo for 12 rounds never slacking.

anyone who has seen all eubanks fights will tell you he threw twice as much leather v calzaghe than he did normally.

brewer was a good example of calzaghe , who could have easily won the fight from the poutside staying in the pocket for all 12 rounds and loving and enjoying having a tear up.

woodhall and veit 2 for his footwork and outside abilty and cornering abilty v talllong fighters/
prime sheika a box /puncher when calzaghe did a bit fronm the outside and a bit on the inside.

mrgitchan , despite not known across the pond was a strongman with big power and calzaghe boxed well of the backfoot for the whole fight to the ko .

[sambob]

Even Hopkins said it doesn't matter who you're fighting - there's something to be said for staying a champ for 10 years in the hardest of all sports - that takes focus and consistancy.

- has won all four belts (and The Ring) at 168, the only man to ever do it
- has beat two former #1 contender/titlists - Lacy and Kessler
- is unbeaten in over 40 fights as a pro
- has stayed and dominated his division instead of jumping around for big money fights
- had crowds of 35K and 50K at his fights this year - who was the last guy to do that? Ali maybe?

Well of course he's the only one to unify super middleweight, its a relatively new weight class. Considering that unifications happen rarely in the sport as well, you can't really compare him to other unififed 168 lb champions,, because there have been none! :P

To be honest I don't agree with Hopkins about that point anyway. And I don't see what having big crowds has to do with being a good FIGHTER.

Also, JUMPING AROUND is all about what the P4P rankings are about isnt it? I just don't see how you can say someone is "Pound for pound" without seeing how they fare fighting at different weights.

Btw I rate Calzage about where The Ring ranks him, so its not like I think he shouldn't even be on the list! But I put him there basically for just how good he seems to be, not because of accomplishment.

Incidentally, I'm not a Calzaghe nuthugger.

I think he got some fortunate stoppages against Sheika (who was testing Calzaghe to the max) and Byron Mitchell (although he did hit Mitchell about a million times with no return after he knocked him down).

I also cringe when think about defences against Pudwell and that Salem farce...

Hmm I'll check those out. At least its some place to start!

I really hate quick stoppages like that. I also thought the stoppage against Manfredo was kind of a joke. YES YES I think Calzaghe would have beaten him, but still!

Anyway thanks for the good responses guys. Glad to have a discussion on this forum that doesn't involve Floyd (not directly at least), Cotto, Floyd and Cotto, Floyd fighting Cotto, Floyd not fighting Cotto, Cotto not fighting Floyd, etc etc.

[Bodysnatcher]

Larry Merchant, as Lacy fought Manfredo, said `Lacy had some real cherry-picked opponents to get the status he did`...

Lampley, to his credit, jumped in and said `well actually Larry, EVERYONE thought he was a superstar`.

And Emmanuel Steward, also to his credit, admitted he'd picked Lacy big time against Calzaghe.

If you really think about that, you will understand why one fighter (Lacy) can be overhyped and another (Calzaghe) can constantly be picked at by doubters.

And it has plenty to do with where a fighter was born and where he fights.

[sambob]

well if it marks skill then calzaghe easily beats most of the compertion in the pound for pound ranking order, if it rates in over long term achievement then calzaghe will be marked high aswell , if it is ranked over quality of oppersition he will be marked lower , but lacy was a heavily backed favourite in that fight! dnt forget that and chris Eubank was always a dangerous competititor , Mikkel Kessler in his prime a younger , hungrier and dangerous fight was a real talent and calzaghe fought great again! , Calzaghe has a brilliant technique which includes loads of skill and determination to wear down his opponent which he does in most of his fights , he is a great fighter and at 35 and undefeated deserves his respect to be number 2 or 3

cos it doesnt matter if u fight somebody who is crap you get hit in the right place you go down! any 1 of those fighters could of beat him but calzaghe was to good! at

Well personally I don't give a shit if Lacy was the favorite, that was unfortunate hype, and the kind of thing thats bad for the sport. Though I think he was a legitimate contender.

Eubank and Kessler basically ARE the ones I think are good wins (that I'm familiar with), so I guess we're basically on the same page. But To say 2 or 3 I just think is slightly pushing it, a the people who the Ring for example has ahead of him, have done more and are very talented and skilled as well.

Of course I'm really just splitting hairs at this point, because personally I believe based on his natural talent and skills that he would do well if he fought some of the big names between 160--175. BUT I still think it would be nice to have seen more of the rest of his career.

[Bodysnatcher]

Well of course he's the only one to unify super middleweight, its a relatively new weight class. Considering that unifications happen rarely in the sport as well, you can't really compare him to other unififed 168 lb champions,, because there have been none! :P

To be honest I don't agree with Hopkins about that point anyway. And I don't see what having big crowds has to do with being a good FIGHTER.

Also, JUMPING AROUND is all about what the P4P rankings are about isnt it? I just don't see how you can say someone is "Pound for pound" without seeing how they fare fighting at different weights.

Btw I rate Calzage about where The Ring ranks him, so its not like I think he shouldn't even be on the list! But I put him there basically for just how good he seems to be, not because of accomplishment.



Hmm I'll check those out. At least its some place to start!

I really hate quick stoppages like that. I also thought the stoppage against Manfredo was kind of a joke. YES YES I think Calzaghe would have beaten him, but still!

Anyway thanks for the good responses guys. Glad to have a discussion on this forum that doesn't involve Floyd (not directly at least), Cotto, Floyd and Cotto, Floyd fighting Cotto, Floyd not fighting Cotto, Cotto not fighting Floyd, etc etc.

Mitchell was the least unlucky...he got hit so many times Calzaghe was looking at the Ref...then Mitchell threw a punch just as the Ref jumped in.

Sheika's eyes were both cut. One by an accidental headbutt and the other by Calzaghe's fists. But I would have let Sheika fight on, if I'd been the Ref.

Sheika always underachieved...I think if he'd defeated Calzaghe that night, coming off his oft-overlooked win against Glen Johnson as well, he coulda been a serious contender.

But that's the story of Calzaghe's career...little bit like Lewis.

Everyone picks them both to lose against a hundred `future greats` (Lacy, Kessler, Sheika, Grant, Tua, the list is LONG) and when they dump all those guys into career no man's land and derail their progress once and for all, the people who predicted those defeats say `well, uh, those guys weren't actually ever that good and I just can't remember saying otherwise...`.

[Zakman]

Why do so many people on ESB think Calzaghe is P4P #1 or #2?
I haven't seen too many people rank him as P4P #1, but 2 or 3 is very defensible - and frankly, if you don't have him in the top 5, you're clearly underrating him, and probably a "hatter."

[TFFP]

What never ceases to amaze me is how wins against Lacy and Kessler have become almost worthless. The hypocrisy of it all makes me chuckle

So nearly every American on here picks Lacy to win (whilst drooling over his muscles), he get's schooled as we all told you he would and suddenly he was never good

So in truth, either Lacy was a good fighter that got his career ended by Joe Calzaghe, OR you are a bunch of cnuts that overhype your fighters yet accuse us of doing just that

[Bodysnatcher]

There's plenty to criticise Joe for.

Too many substandard opponents and he probably should have fought in America before now (home advantage DOES count for something).

But he's done more than enough to prove he's a Top 3 P4P fighter, which is the argument here.

More than enough.

[sambob]

Well I think you're exagerrating a bit about some of those guys Bodysnatcher. Kessler isn't in no mans land! Some people on this BOARD have tried to put him there, but I think he looked very impressive in his fight with Calzaghe, he still does a lot of things very well, and doesn't really have any WEAK points - he just isn't a genius like Calzaghe.

Same with a lot of those other names. Tua never really turned out as well as people wanted, but he still did well enough. And Michael Grant for example, well he was over hyped a bit for sure, and never recovered after the Lewis fight, but over hyped as much as Lacy? I don't know..

And you say EVERYONE picked them to lose, well everyone who bought the hype. The Lacy case is pretty extraordinary I'll admit, he was REALLY hyped, but the others not as much. I picked Calzaghe over Kessler. And Lewis over Grant and Tua easily!

[sambob]

What never ceases to amaze me is how wins against Lacy and Kessler have become almost worthless. The hypocrisy of it all makes me chuckle

So nearly every American on here picks Lacy to win (whilst drooling over his muscles), he get's schooled as we all told you he would and suddenly he was never good

So in truth, either Lacy was a good fighter that got his career ended by Joe Calzaghe, OR you are a bunch of cnuts that overhype your fighters yet accuse us of doing just that

What are you talking about man? The win over KEssler is not worthless. Don't worry about what some people say. You know Kessler was a good opponent for Joe, and a future force in boxing.

Lacy is another matter all together though. I don't see why you're being such a bitter asshole about it. You say the only options are that Lacy really was good and Calzaghe somehow ruined him, or that he was overhyped and because of that it makes us cunts? Grow up. I didn't try to bring any of that shit into this thread, you did, so you're insulting yourself, nobody else. Lacy was WAY over hyped. I'm sorry he isn't really a great fighter and so it oesn't elevate Calzaghe the way you would like, but thats just the truth. Calzaghe IS a great fighter, I don't think anyone who actually knows boxing would try to dispute that.

[Bodysnatcher]

Well I think you're exagerrating a bit about some of those guys Bodysnatcher. Kessler isn't in no mans land! Some people on this BOARD have tried to put him there, but I think he looked very impressive in his fight with Calzaghe, he still does a lot of things very well, and doesn't really have any WEAK points - he just isn't a genius like Calzaghe.

Same with a lot of those other names. Tua never really turned out as well as people wanted, but he still did well enough. And Michael Grant for example, well he was over hyped a bit for sure, and never recovered after the Lewis fight, but over hyped as much as Lacy? I don't know..

And you say EVERYONE picked them to lose, well everyone who bought the hype. The Lacy case is pretty extraordinary I'll admit, he was REALLY hyped, but the others not as much. I picked Calzaghe over Kessler. And Lewis over Grant and Tua easily!

Sambob, you're right about Kessler 100% and I retract my statement regarding him. I'm actually a huge fan of his.

You clearly know your boxing so I believe you with the Grant prediction.

BUT, back in 2000, the majority of established American boxing writers picked Grant over Lewis. I remember Emmanuel Steward gloating about that afterwards. And HBO notoriously went on and on about a `possible changing of the guard` before that fight, I remember it like yesterday...well, not yesterday, it's Christmas, plenty of beers still flowing...

Tua was a similar situation, although less so than Grant.

Even Briggs to this day, the American boxing fraternity will say `well, he had Lewis in trouble for a while in those early rounds`....you can just TASTE the regret!

Lacy was overhyped, but when you see him demolish a former belt holder like Reid, who had a granite chin and had never been down, you kinda understand it.

If Emmanuel Steward can predict a Lacy victory over Calzaghe, you have to think `hey, maybe he WAS good...and Calzaghe ended him that night.`

[Lance_Uppercut]

He's definately top 5, but has not done enough to be seen as #1 or 2.

[Bodysnatcher]

Mind you, the criticism Calzaghe gets is a shit load more justified than the Stateside criticism Lewis gets, imho.

[TFFP]

What are you talking about man? The win over KEssler is not worthless. Don't worry about what some people say. You know Kessler was a good opponent for Joe, and a future force in boxing.

Lacy is another matter all together though. I don't see why you're being such a bitter asshole about it. You say the only options are that Lacy really was good and Calzaghe somehow ruined him, or that he was overhyped and because of that it makes us cunts? Grow up. I didn't try to bring any of that shit into this thread, you did, so you're insulting yourself, nobody else. Lacy was WAY over hyped. I'm sorry he isn't really a great fighter and so it oesn't elevate Calzaghe the way you would like, but thats just the truth. Calzaghe IS a great fighter, I don't think anyone who actually knows boxing would try to dispute that.
What am I talking about? I'm talking about the hypocrisy dished out by a lot of Americans on this forum. They all make their picks, disapear for a few days later and then have the nerve to say Lacy was overrated. Yes, he was overrated, by yourselves

You seem quite respectful, but there are still plenty that are questioning Joe. Usually the very same people that pick him to lose all these fights

It's a joke, and I truely believe he'll never be seen as the great he should be no matter what he does in the future

[Still~style]

Cos he has went 44 fights unbeaten

held the belt for 10 years

fought tremendously great against lacy which proved how a boxer can fight a perfect fight

calzaghe has proven to us brits he can take a punch and box like one of the best

he is a great fighter

Americans have only seen calzaghe over a few number of fights

if you've held the belt for 10 years and your best opponent is lacey (up till now), it says something about his career.

[TFFP]

if you've held the belt for 10 years and your best opponent is lacey (up till now), it says something about his career.
Who said Lacy was his best opponent?

This has become par for the course now. Yanks that are so clueless about what goes on outside their own borders, that they actually think Lacy is his best win

[Optimist]

Calzagh is a boxing genius, and it is unfortunate that there are not more credible opponents available. He has fought some great boxers, going back to Eubank (3-2 last 5 at the time) and was been incredible against Lacy and Kessler. It is a shame he never got to fight Sven Ottke - who would have got his arse kicked - and it would have been great to see him fight Benn, at any stage of his career.

Ultimately he is in a division that lacks big names and great fighters. This makes it hard for people to class him as an ATG. Despite this I honestly think he is at least top 3 P4P.

[thewoo]

I don't think Hopkins should have been P4P that high either. don't assume so just because I am American too. I never said anything about Hopkins, I am talking about Calzaghe. I don't think Hopkins should have gotten credit just for TITLE DEFENSES. But for the record, he didn't just get credit for title DEFENSES, keep in mind he unified the titles too, and his last defenses were for the UNDISPUTED middleweight championship.

I think Hopkins deserves it NOW for fighting well past the mid 30s (thats where Joe is now, so I'm still waiting on that one for him), and moving up to Light Heavyweight to fight and beat impressively the champ there..

I'm still waiting for recommendations on Calzaghe fights to watch against good opposition. I'd really like to see these.

Calzage is also undisputed. Everyone has gotten amnesia about Lacy. He was a 3-1 favorite. He was a champion just about everyone said fuck calzage lacy is the man now. To say that Lacy was not aquality opponent is complete bullshit. He has looked like shit since then because Joe ripped him a new asshole and compelty ruined him. To say kessler was not a quality opponent is also complete bullshit. Kessleer beats anyone else at 168 or any 160 pounder coming up and most 175 ponders right now.

You want other quality opponents Byron Mitchell, Omar Sheika, Robin Reid, Chris Eubank, These were all guys that were at the top of the division when Joe spanked them. Like I said it has been a weak division but Joe has completly and totally set himself head and shoulders above everyone else in it and I would favor him over anyone 175 or below right now.

[Still~style]

Who said Lacy was his best opponent?

This has become par for the course now. Yanks that are so clueless about what goes on outside their own borders, that they actually think Lacy is his best win

MAN clazaghe said that after the lacey fight that it was his biggest win. i didn't mean to say his best opponent but it makes me think that when clazaghe himself said it was his biggest win.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

THe reason why so many rank him at 1 or 2 is, that there are a lot of Brits on this board and they even think their football team is world class.

[TFFP]

MAN clazaghe said that after the lacey fight that it was his biggest win. i didn't mean to say his best opponent but it makes me think that when clazaghe himself said it was his biggest win.
Biggest in the sense it got him the exposure he deserved. Joe thought Lacy was shit

[Bodysnatcher]

THe reason why so many rank him at 1 or 2 is, that there are a lot of Brits on this board and they even think their football team is world class.

Yes, that famous British football team...

Surely this comment says it all

:deal

[TFFP]

THe reason why so many rank him at 1 or 2 is, that there are a lot of Brits on this board and they even think their football team is world class.
Britain doesn't have a football team

Yank in not knowing shit shocker

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Bodysnatcher]

Biggest in the sense it got him the exposure he deserved. Joe thought Lacy was shit

Yeah, he kept saying that to Steve Bunce in that BBC profile a few weeks ago.

I thought he could have been a bit more respectful about Lacy to be honest, the guy did say he'd fight Calzaghe anywhere and backed it up...not something Joe is exactly famed for.

[TFFP]

Yeah, he kept saying that to Steve Bunce in that BBC profile a few weeks ago.

I thought he could have been a bit more respectful about Lacy to be honest, the guy did say he'd fight Calzaghe anywhere and backed it up...not something Joe is exactly famed for.
Lacy really was shit. Courageous, but shit

He doesn't make the top 5 of Joe's victims

[Bodysnatcher]

Lacy really was shit. Courageous, but shit

He doesn't make the top 5 of Joe's victims

Maybe scrapes Top 5.

I thought Sheika was better.

Sheika was really fucking good actually! Beat Johnson, wasn't afraid of Joe.

With a guy like him, you see his defeats to fighters like Pemberton and others, you think `something not right outside the ring.`

[Bodysnatcher]

Fucking hell, Sheika got beat by Tony Booth.

I mean, Jesus.

No way should that have remotely happened.

[TFFP]

Byron Mitchell was better and all

Eubank anybody?

Kessler...duh

Even Sakio fucking Bika was better, at least he was a dirty little scrote that made life difficult

[Orang-Utan Jim]

JC is Top 5 P4P, but Mayweather, Hopkins and Pacquiao definitely got clearly more resume than him.

He beat one world class fight in Kessler, but that doesnt make you the best boxer in the world.

[TFFP]

JC is Top 5 P4P, but Mayweather, Hopkins and Pacquiao definitely got clearly more resume than him.

He beat one world class fight in Kessler, but that doesnt make you the best boxer in the world.
Enough of that

Tell us about this British soccerball team

[mike464]

He has won all three titles but never had them at the same time which is a bit rubbish. He also waited way too long to win those titles but fighting Hopkins is a great start and if he can win that fight and beat another decent LHW (Woods or Dawson) you could make an argument for #2 P4P.

[thewoo]

Joe is a great boxer but never an ATG just a great boxer

Well ATG is often measured in weight classes. People rank hopkins top 5 middleweight, They rank Pernell and Duran as top lightweights. That being said, throughout history can you name 5 super middleweights taht you wold rank above Joe? can you name 3?

[TFFP]

Well ATG is often measured in weight classes. People rank hopkins top 5 middleweight, They rank Pernell and Duran as top lightweights. That being said, throughout history can you name 5 super middleweights taht you wold rank above Joe? can you name 3?
How about 1?

RJJ maybe, but you wouldn't exactly call him a SMW. None of this best work was done there

[thewoo]

How about 1?

RJJ maybe, but you wouldn't exactly call him a SMW. None of this best work was done there

Even though none of their best work was done there I would rank James Toney and RJJ above Calzage at 168 simply becase I would favor them above him in a head to head match up. If you were basing it on accomplishments at the weight I would not object to someone having Joe as their number one.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

Enough of that

Tell us about this British soccerball team

As far as I know, they couldnt qualify for some tournament in Europe where even a B-level-team usually should qualify....

[Symphenyceo]

i have him at #5

[TFFP]

As far as I know trhe couldnt qualify for some tournament...
This was the British soccerball team right?

Their d-fence is horrible. It was Joe Terry's fault, dude he sucks

Oh well, theres always next time

Go team!

[Lance_Uppercut]

Joe C has made a TON of defenses....but one thing that hurts that run unlike w/ Hopkins, is Sven Ottke was making the same # of defenses almost at THE SAME TIME. Having two guys making so many title defenses in the same division isn't the same as ONE guy dominating a division.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

This was the British soccerball team right?

Their d-fence is horrible. It was Joe Terry's fault, dude he sucks

Oh well, theres always next time

Go team!


Hell, they will. Usually after after a dale comes a peak. But I am not sure if Capello is the right man. He speaks no English.

[Silvermags]

Calzaghe's records are impressive but too bad he has not PROVEN himself outside UK. Like HATTON's records were impressive but when he fought in the U.S. too bad he lost. I would have loved it if he won.

Sorry guys for my ignorance. I know Valera wish list is to be able to fight in the US so he could prove his 22-0 is no fluke so he could fight the best in his division. I really have NO IDEA why Calzaghe NEVER fought in the U.S?
- ONLY REAL (the truth) answers pls?!

[TFFP]

Calzaghe's records are impressive but too bad he has not PROVEN himself outside UK. Like HATTON's records were impressive but when he fought in the U.S. too bad he lost. I would have loved it if he won.

Sorry guys for my ignorance. I know Valera wish list is to be able to fight in the US so he could prove his 22-0 is no fluke so he could fight the best in his division. I really have NO IDEA why Calzaghe NEVER fought in the U.S?
- ONLY REAL (the truth) answers pls?!
Why would he?

He's been the best in this division for 10 years

You don't see Floyd Mayweather coming to Manchester, and rightly so

[thewoo]

Calzaghe's records are impressive but too bad he has not PROVEN himself outside UK. Like HATTON's records were impressive but when he fought in the U.S. too bad he lost. I would have loved it if he won.

Sorry guys for my ignorance. I know Valera wish list is to be able to fight in the US so he could prove his 22-0 is no fluke so he could fight the best in his division. I really have NO IDEA why Calzaghe NEVER fought in the U.S?
- ONLY REAL (the truth) answers pls?!

Who has there been in his division worth flying over here for? He has fought the best in his division it he just fought them at home. What's the big deal about that? I guess floyd is shit because he never fought outside of the US.

[Orang-Utan Jim]

The reason why JC never fought outside UK is, that the money in the Supermiddleweight is only in the UK and Germany. Nowhere else. Not in Denmark, not in Australia and esp. not in the US. He did not have to box outside, the same with Ottke not fighting out of Germany.

[G_RapPBF]

BEcause he fought alot of eurobums and a bunch of low level American fighters like Lacy and friggin contender lol Manfredo.

He hasnt proven himself yet. He has skills, but he slaps, an those slaps wont hurt a top flight boxer in middle or lightheavy. I have Pavlik knocking his ass out, he might be able to outsmart Taylor. But the more I look at Hopkins the more Calzaghe should be fucking worried.

Top 5 p4p definitely. Top 3? Hell no, not even close. That goes to fighters who fight in tougher divisions and multiple weight classes.

[Cobbler]

Hell, they will. Usually after after a dale comes a peak. But I am not sure if Capello is the right man. He speaks no English.

That's ok though, I hear he speaks pretty good British.

But just wait until he finds out that he's only allowed to select from two thirds of the eligable British soccerball players :patsch

[TFFP]

That's ok though, I hear he speaks pretty good British.

But just wait until he finds out that he's only allowed to select from two thirds of the eligable British soccerball players :patsch
:D

[Cobbler]

BEcause he fought alot of eurobums and a bunch of low level American fighters like Lacy and friggin contender lol Manfredo.

He hasnt proven himself yet. He has skills, but he slaps, an those slaps wont hurt a top flight boxer in middle or lightheavy. I have Pavlik knocking his ass out, he might be able to outsmart Taylor. But the more I look at Hopkins the more Calzaghe should be fucking worried.


I can't wait until Calzaghe has slapped Hopkins and Pavlik down to the level of 'low level American fighters' and he can get back to fighting Eurobums like Kessler :roll:

[G_RapPBF]

I can't wait until Calzaghe has slapped Hopkins and Pavlik down to the level of 'low level American fighters' and he can get back to fighting Eurobums like Kessler :roll:

Nonsense. Remember what happened to Hatton? Thats what happens when Eurobums get giddy and think they can take on the top American fighters in the world. Calzaghe was smart he waited until Roy Jones and Hopkins got old before talking shit. He knows.

Kessler was a bum. What was he norwegian or some shit. Alot of boxing hitory there lol.

[TFFP]

BEcause he fought alot of eurobums and a bunch of low level American fighters like Lacy and friggin contender lol Manfredo.

He hasnt proven himself yet. He has skills, but he slaps, an those slaps wont hurt a top flight boxer in middle or lightheavy. I have Pavlik knocking his ass out, he might be able to outsmart Taylor. But the more I look at Hopkins the more Calzaghe should be fucking worried.

Top 5 p4p definitely. Top 3? Hell no, not even close. That goes to fighters who fight in tougher divisions and multiple weight classes.
Kelly Pavlik...hehe

Worst possible matchup for Kelly. Joe has the edge in speed, workrate, boxing ability, defence, chin. Even Pavlik's size is not a factor at SMW. The only thing he has is power

Oh, and he has a girls name

[Larson]

So Calzaghes handspeed is better than that of a Gamboa? Or a Pacquiao? Or a Zab Judah?

[G_RapPBF]

Kelly Pavlik...hehe

Worst possible matchup for Kelly. Joe has the edge in speed, workrate, boxing ability, defence, chin. Even Pavlik's size is not a factor at SMW. The only thing he has is power

Oh, and he has a girls name

Nonsense. Joe has the edge in slaps. He's fast because his punches pack no power behind them so he just throws wildly. Kelly would catch his ass with a massive right and drop him right on his ass. Defense? Chin? Umm Kelly fought Miranda and Taylor, 2 guys who were supposed to knock him out. Calzaghe fought against some Lithuanian and a reality show contestant. Didnt he get rocked by some C level fighters a few years ago? And you think he'd stand up to Kelly's right?:hi: bye bye calzaghe.

[G_RapPBF]

So Calzaghes handspeed is better than that of a Gamboa? Or a Pacquiao? Or a Zab Judah?

No. He looks fast because he slaps. He hits you with the underside of his glove,it looks fast, but it does little damage. He was catching that hungarian all night but did little damage.

[TFFP]

No. He looks fast because he slaps. He hits you with the underside of his glove,it looks fast, but it does little damage. He was catching that hungarian all night but did little damage.
Hungarian? What?

You don't know ANYTHING about boxing outside your shores do you?

Delete him

[Jersey Joe]

Whenever you have a guy with a 0 on his record, you'll get lots of people saying he's a P4P great. To them the results are everything. Quality of opposition is not really taken into account, skills & technique is not a big deal - all that matters is who wins. Joe is a good boxer with a great record - but he's fought almost entirely at home, and never really sought out world-class opposition. He's like Roy Jones with less talent and a more padded set of opponents. All we can ask is what might have been.

To really judge a fighter you need to look at his style & skills, and the quality of opposition, not just his record. That is a task beyond the will or ability of many people on ESB - and the general boxing media & public is far worse. That's why a lot of people rate Ali above Louis - Joe had an incredible record but he only really fought a handful fights that truly challenged him, and he lost a couple of those. Ali on the other hand went into lots of really tough fights against deadly opponents, yet managed to conjure out wins or 2-1 records against the odds. That's why he is rated so high by many cognescenti.

If Calzaghe really valued his legacy, he would have fought Jones 5 years ago, Hopkins too. If he had beaten them then we wouldn't be having this debate - he would have *proven* to be an ATG. But he didn't do that, he sat in Wales beating journeymen and the occasional contender. That's why he can never be considered a boxing legend.

[TFFP]

Whenever you have a guy with a 0 on his record, you'll get lots of people saying he's a P4P great. To them the results are everything. Quality of opposition is not really taken into account, skills & technique is not a big deal - all that matters is who wins. Joe is a good boxer with a great record - but he's fought almost entirely at home, and never really sought out world-class opposition. He's like Roy Jones with less talent and a more padded set of opponents. All we can ask is what might have been.

To really judge a fighter you need to look at his style & skills, and the quality of opposition, not just his record. That is a task beyond the will or ability of many people on ESB - and the general boxing media & public is far worse. That's why a lot of people rate Ali above Louis - Joe had an incredible record but he only really fought a handful fights that truly challenged him, and he lost a couple of those. Ali on the other hand went into lots of really tough fights against deadly opponents, yet managed to conjure out wins or 2-1 records against the odds. That's why he is rated so high by many cognescenti.

If Calzaghe really valued his legacy, he would have fought Jones 5 years ago, Hopkins too. If he had beaten them then we wouldn't be having this debate - he would have *proven* to be an ATG. But he didn't do that, he sat in Wales beating journeymen and the occasional contender. That's why he can never be considered a boxing legend.
That was a very nice post

The obvious mistake being Joe did have a deal in place to fight Hopkins 6 years ago. Ol Popkins sleeps on it and decides he wants some more pocket money

What does that tell you?

[G_RapPBF]

Whenever you have a guy with a 0 on his record, you'll get lots of people saying he's a P4P great. To them the results are everything. Quality of opposition is not really taken into account, skills & technique is not a big deal - all that matters is who wins. Joe is a good boxer with a great record - but he's fought almost entirely at home, and never really sought out world-class opposition. He's like Roy Jones with less talent and a more padded set of opponents. All we can ask is what might have been.

To really judge a fighter you need to look at his style & skills, and the quality of opposition, not just his record. That is a task beyond the will or ability of many people on ESB - and the general boxing media & public is far worse. That's why a lot of people rate Ali above Louis - Joe had an incredible record but he only really fought a handful fights that truly challenged him, and he lost a couple of those. Ali on the other hand went into lots of really tough fights against deadly opponents, yet managed to conjure out wins or 2-1 records against the odds. That's why he is rated so high by many cognescenti.

If Calzaghe really valued his legacy, he would have fought Jones 5 years ago, Hopkins too. If he had beaten them then we wouldn't be having this debate - he would have *proven* to be an ATG. But he didn't do that, he sat in Wales beating journeymen and the occasional contender. That's why he can never be considered a boxing legend.


Very well said :good

[Cobbler]

Nonsense. Remember what happened to Hatton? Thats what happens when Eurobums get giddy and think they can take on the top American fighters in the world. Calzaghe was smart he waited until Roy Jones and Hopkins got old before talking shit. He knows.

Kessler was a bum. What was he norwegian or some shit. Alot of boxing hitory there lol.

Calzaghe won't be around for Pavlik in reality anyway. But Kessler will and Kessler will smash his Canadian ass all the way across the Atlantic and back. Pavlik will be so traumatised he won't ever want to visit Norway after that....

[unclepaulie]

cause theyre still stinging over '76 and what we did to the redcoats.













just kidding.

[TFFP]

Guys..

I know you're just making fun.. but please..
Kessler is from Denmark.
I know you don't care, but this is me begging you to pick on someone your own size.
Denmark has the population of Baltimore. We need heroes.Kessler is one.
He is our hero and we really would appreciate it if you guys would let us have him.
Give us a break, huh?

He is not a bum, G_rapPBF. Your mother, on the other hand, now there...
Don't take it to heart mate, he's revealed himself as a spastic American that knows nothing about boxing outside his own borders

Kessler is highly rated on these boards in general

[Cobbler]

Denmark has the population of Baltimore.

I can understand why they all wanted to leave Baltimore, but can't you send them back?

[TFFP]

Haaaaaahahaha, that's good shit.

Actually, I think we might keep them a little while.
We have to fill more jobs over here:-)
Of course you do with that cunting income tax

Fuck that

[mike464]

Whenever you have a guy with a 0 on his record, you'll get lots of people saying he's a P4P great. To them the results are everything. Quality of opposition is not really taken into account, skills & technique is not a big deal - all that matters is who wins. Joe is a good boxer with a great record - but he's fought almost entirely at home, and never really sought out world-class opposition. He's like Roy Jones with less talent and a more padded set of opponents. All we can ask is what might have been.

To really judge a fighter you need to look at his style & skills, and the quality of opposition, not just his record. That is a task beyond the will or ability of many people on ESB - and the general boxing media & public is far worse. That's why a lot of people rate Ali above Louis - Joe had an incredible record but he only really fought a handful fights that truly challenged him, and he lost a couple of those. Ali on the other hand went into lots of really tough fights against deadly opponents, yet managed to conjure out wins or 2-1 records against the odds. That's why he is rated so high by many cognescenti.

If Calzaghe really valued his legacy, he would have fought Jones 5 years ago, Hopkins too. If he had beaten them then we wouldn't be having this debate - he would have *proven* to be an ATG. But he didn't do that, he sat in Wales beating journeymen and the occasional contender. That's why he can never be considered a boxing legend.:good

[G_RapPBF]

So Hopkins is considered a greater fighter because everytime he stepped up his compettition from level b fighter to an actual boxer he has gotten creamed?

Typical European moron with your typical european knowledge of boxing.

De La Hoya
Tarver
Wright
Trinidad.

All p4p top 10's. Yep thats why he's a legend in the sport. And why Calzaghe will be forgotten in a year after he retires.

[Words]

I can understand why they all wanted to leave Baltimore, but can't you send them back?

post of the year :rofl:rofl:rofl

[tays001]

Calzaghe is a non-American who has never fought in the States and who fights in a division traditionally dominated and populated by European fighters.

That explains why many Americans question his P4P status.

yeah it's ashme i have him at #2

[Cobbler]

Typical European moron with your typical european knowledge of boxing.

De La Hoya
Tarver
Wright
Trinidad.

All p4p top 10's. Yep thats why he's a legend in the sport. And why Calzaghe will be forgotten in a year after he retires.

Tarver :lol: P4P Top Ten :lol:

Tarver is just a reminder of how Kevin McBride would be viewed today were he American.

Then you got a light middleweight fighing at light heavy and a couple of welterweights fighting at middleweight.

[G_RapPBF]

Tarver :lol: P4P Top Ten :lol:

Tarver is just a reminder of how Kevin McBride would be viewed today were he American.

Then you got a light middleweight fighing at light heavy and a couple of welterweights fighting at middleweight.

Lmao I meant once was a p4p top 10. Just proving you eurofags wrong again. Listen go watch a couple soccer players dive around the "pitch" leave the violent sports to us.

[G_RapPBF]

[
So hush. My point is still valid.

How? I just proved Hopkins beat4 fighters that were once ranked in the p4p top 10. Not including the fighters he barely lost to like Taylor who were once p4p top 10. Seriously are you from Denmark? Stick to making whatever the hell you goes do over there. Leave the boxing to the USA.

You do know that Hopkins beat for his 20th title defense the top European middleweight in Europe dont you? Winky Wright made a career out of pummeling eurofags. Just because you have a few champions now in shit divisions doesnt mean we are gonna respect you out of the blue.

[sambob]

Well ATG is often measured in weight classes. People rank hopkins top 5 middleweight, They rank Pernell and Duran as top lightweights. That being said, throughout history can you name 5 super middleweights taht you wold rank above Joe? can you name 3?

This is a bullshit way to try to win an argument man - the super middleweight division is a very YOUNG division.

[Silvermags]

Who has there been in his division worth flying over here for? He has fought the best in his division it he just fought them at home. What's the big deal about that? I guess floyd is shit because he never fought outside of the US.

It's not a big deal. But you are also absolutely correct WHY floyd HAS NOT FOUGHT ANYBODY OUTSIDE USA!!! Good question raised!

American's are questioning or saying that CALZAGHE is fighting in his comfort zone which is in UK but come to think of it PBF is likewise have not have any figth OUTSIDE U.S.A.!!!!! :huh :good :huh :good

Very interesting. I wonder WHAT diE hard PBF would have to say about this...

[Tunney5]

Joe Calzaghe deserves to be in the top 3 p4p. What amazes me is that some people actually rate Hopkins higher than Calzaghe!

[steelem]

Calzaghe is GROSSLY overrated on this site. It all started with the Lacy victory.

The group delusion is inexplicable.

:smoke


it started when 95% of this site thought he would lose to lacy - the backlash was he Won hahah

[thewoo]

If Calzaghe really valued his legacy, he would have fought Jones 5 years ago, Hopkins too. If he had beaten them then we wouldn't be having this debate - he would have *proven* to be an ATG. But he didn't do that, he sat in Wales beating journeymen and the occasional contender. That's why he can never be considered a boxing legend.

You say this as if Joe avoided hopkins. Hopkins stayed in and ruled a weak middleweight divisio rather than move up and seek challenges When he finallyl did decide to move up he skipped right over Calzages division. Ho wis that Joe's fault?

[ESAJZ]

I also feel that Calzaghe is pretty overrated. I don't want to take anything away from him though, he is a great fighter and clearly one of the best the division has seen. He just, as the started said, do too many things wrong. Currently, IMO he is easily top 10 p4p, but not top 5. If he beats Hopkins though, then #2 or #3 would be hard to deny.

[Fighting Weight]

sure i'll even name 6 better than JC and whom i rate above him on another level any of these would have beaten jc easily cant really count the jc eubank fight he was never the same after what happened to watson and jc hardly dominated him just a flash knockdown in first eubank was up after 2 seconds and fine.

eubank
benn
mclellan
rjj
collins
johnson

I agree with Eubank, McClellan, Benn and RJJ, not so sure about Collins, and Johnson though. Collins got over-rated due to his 2 narrow wins over Eubank who as you say just wasn't the same fighter. If Eubank had been anything like the fighter he was pre-Watson he'd have knocked Collins out in the first fight when he had him all over the place...he just wasn't nasty enough any more. Benn is now under-rated due to losing to Eubank, Watson and Collins (twice) and Malinga who was actually a decent fighter and Benn was never the same after the McClellan fight, same as Eubank with Watson it just seemed to change the man. For the better outside the ring, but inside it?

[sambob]

Calzaghe's records are impressive but too bad he has not PROVEN himself outside UK. Like HATTON's records were impressive but when he fought in the U.S. too bad he lost. I would have loved it if he won.

Sorry guys for my ignorance. I know Valera wish list is to be able to fight in the US so he could prove his 22-0 is no fluke so he could fight the best in his division. I really have NO IDEA why Calzaghe NEVER fought in the U.S?
- ONLY REAL (the truth) answers pls?!

Well come on though. Calzaghe doesn't need to fight outside of the UK, you mean he needs to fight FIGHTERS from outside of the UK. And he has done that just in recent years. Now that he is a big enough name to GET bigger fights, he has been able to fight Kessler.

Proving himself outside of Wales is exactly what he's in the process of doing. A couple more fights, possibly fighting at 175, or fighting legitimate 168 challengers (people like Jermain Taylor or Kelly Pavlik moving UP in weight), would put him at P4P status #2 or #3 in my eyes.

But I don't see why he has to actually fight in the states.

You don't see Floyd Mayweather coming to Manchester, and rightly so

He didn't need to, just like how Calzaghe doesn't have to physically go to the states to make an impact here. Floyd fought the best that Manchester had to offer, should be enough!

Kessler was a bum. What was he norwegian or some shit. Alot of boxing hitory there lol.

Are you for real? Kessler may not have faced all that much opposition yet, but if you know ANYTHING about boxing then you can tell from watching Kessler's performance against Calzaghe that he is the real deal. His boxing skills are very good. He is CLEARLY the best 168 lb contender out there, and would be succssful at 175 lbs, or against any of the bigger (I mean in size :P) middleweights moving up.

You should stop pretending you know anything about the sport of boxing and posting about it on this foum.


You don't know ANYTHING about boxing outside your shores do you?

He doesn't know anything about boxing PERIOD. He needs to shut the fuck up.

[kg0208]

Some of you people need to have a happy medium when discussing boxing.

I personally have Calzaghe at #2 with Pacquiao on my P4P list because of his win over Kessler.

However, Lacy was never that great a fighter. I picked Calzaghe to win after Lacy fought Reid. He got hit far too often, and threw wide looping punches. He gets big credit from me for beating Lacy, but not the same as he gets for beating Kessler and Eubank. However, his resume is a bit shallow in places. I rank him highly on ability, not resume.

And the "American bias" bit is a bit old. Too many American posters here who just like boxing and don't care about where someone is from. Stop generalizing and deal with the poster in front of you. Don't assume because he is American he has little knowledge, especially considering the content of some the posts and the posters who say this.

[sambob]

calzaghe is a level below the fighters i mentioned for sure i think he'd lose to benn every time let alone the others i'd put him on a par with a fighter like watson

So just out of curiosity, since you seem to be a big Eubank fan

I'm one too, though I think Calzaghe is better than he was..

Totally love Eubank though, he's so GOD DAMN ENTERTAINING. And even if you don't like his fights, his antics in the ring, and his sort of I don't know... persona in the ring - the whole "I will fucking destroy anything that gets in the ring with me, be it a Light Flyweight with Cerebal Palsy and a negative record, Lennox Lewis, or a little girl even.", anway even if you don't like that..

You MUST be entertained by listening to him speak. If you are not, you are not uh I on't know, human!

BUT ANYWAY, sorry, went off on a little tangent there!

How do you rate Eubank in comparison to his American counterparts around his weight in those same years? I'm talking James Toney, Bernard Hopkins, Roy Jones, etc etc.

[Words]

sure i'll even name 6 better than JC and whom i rate above him on another level any of these would have beaten jc easily cant really count the jc eubank fight he was never the same after what happened to watson and jc hardly dominated him just a flash knockdown in first eubank was up after 2 seconds and fine.

eubank
benn
mclellan
rjj
collins
johnson

you forgot to mention;

Herol Graham
James Toney
Robin Reid (oh, hang on, he did....)

[psychopath]

I'm not trying to start an argument, talk about Floyd, offend Calzaghe fans or anything, but I'm genuinely interested. :thumbsup


So many? How many is that "so many"? :think

I don't think so . . . only the Calzaghe "NUTHUGGERS" would claim that. :yep

I can understand Calzaghe being in the top 5 but No 1 or 2 ? :-( :blood

Why don't you put up a public poll . . . so we could dettermine how many and who are those people saying that Calzaghe is #1 or #2 p4p. :D

[sambob]

So many? How many is that "so many"? :think

I don't think so . . . only the Calzaghe "NUTHUGGERS" would claim that. :yep

I can understand Calzaghe being in the top 5 but No 1 or 2 ? :-( :blood

Why don't you put up a public poll . . . so we could dettermine how many and who are those people saying that Calzaghe is #1 or #2 p4p. :D

Admittedly I've only been posting here for a few days now, but it just seems that way to me from reading a lot of the threads posted here. I'm on break from school and I don't have much to do other than get off my feet (just broek both of my legs a couple of months ago and its still hard for me to uh stand very much! :P), that is, sit around, and read this forum!

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I realize 30% of those polled may not be everyones idea of "so many", but to me its enough.

An regardless I've had some interesting conversation in this thread, so I'm glad I posted it!

[walk with me]

ive never seen dude but he has to be over rated... people sitting here calling the man an all time great and he doesnt get no love like that outside of the forums

[knighty]

I agree with Eubank, McClellan, Benn and RJJ, not so sure about Collins, and Johnson though. Collins got over-rated due to his 2 narrow wins over Eubank who as you say just wasn't the same fighter. If Eubank had been anything like the fighter he was pre-Watson he'd have knocked Collins out in the first fight when he had him all over the place...he just wasn't nasty enough any more. Benn is now under-rated due to losing to Eubank, Watson and Collins (twice) and Malinga who was actually a decent fighter and Benn was never the same after the McClellan fight, same as Eubank with Watson it just seemed to change the man. For the better outside the ring, but inside it?

eubank and benn have both publically said if joe was around in their prime he would of dominated exactly the same!!! i think they should know. i wonder what every1 would ov said if joe had fought jones and hopkins ( politics kept them apart)? people on here keep mentioning ottke! WHAT THE FUCK!!!??? why should joe go over to germany and risk getting ripped off just like robin reid did! ottke shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as joe! Anyway i have joe at number 4 untill he whoops popkins! (number 3 then).

[Smazz20]

eubank and benn have both publically said if joe was around in their prime he would of dominated exactly the same!!! i think they should know. i wonder what every1 would ov said if joe had fought jones and hopkins ( politics kept them apart)? people on here keep mentioning ottke! WHAT THE FUCK!!!??? why should joe go over to germany and risk getting ripped off just like robin reid did! ottke shouldnt be mentioned in the same breath as joe! Anyway i have joe at number 4 untill he whoops popkins! (number 3 then).



Just because Benn and Eubank said it, dosen't mean it's true. It makes them look all nice and humble when saying it and endears them to the public. As for Ottke, either Calzaghe should of taken a paycut and went to Germany to beat Ottke (in my opinion, he probably would of stopped him) or made ****** offer a very big paycheck to Ottke to come over to Britain.

Calzaghe has lost out bigtime for not getting the Ottke fight. It;s the 168 version of RJJ/DM. You could sawp 5 of the lesser fighters on JC's resume for a win over Ottke and his resume would look significantly better. He was also unfortunate enough to miss out on Collins, which would of been another good scalp.

[Anaboilc lion]

Man every day a fcuking joe C hater makes thread about him here , prob 2 - 3 a day , if he was sh1t no one would talk about him , all u get r jealous yanks and other prats who do not want to hear the truth that joe C is p4p 2-3 .

I would say joe gets hated on here as much as floyld , the no.1 p4p .

Best of all i can't wait for the excusses when he knocks out hopkins .

[SevenSamurai]

Larry Merchant, as Lacy fought Manfredo, said `Lacy had some real cherry-picked opponents to get the status he did`...

Lampley, to his credit, jumped in and said `well actually Larry, EVERYONE thought he was a superstar`.

And Emmanuel Steward, also to his credit, admitted he'd picked Lacy big time against Calzaghe.

If you really think about that, you will understand why one fighter (Lacy) can be overhyped and another (Calzaghe) can constantly be picked at by doubters.

And it has plenty to do with where a fighter was born and where he fights.

Hell Yeah, I remember half of this forum riding Lacy for months before the Calzaghe fight. All of them backing Lacy, going on about his power. Lacy was the future of the division, an excellent fighter!

Then after the fight, they all called him an over-hyped bum.:deal

[SevenSamurai]

Just because Benn and Eubank said it, dosen't mean it's true. It makes them look all nice and humble when saying it and endears them to the public. As for Ottke, either Calzaghe should of taken a paycut and went to Germany to beat Ottke (in my opinion, he probably would of stopped him) or made ****** offer a very big paycheck to Ottke to come over to Britain.

Calzaghe has lost out bigtime for not getting the Ottke fight. It;s the 168 version of RJJ/DM. You could sawp 5 of the lesser fighters on JC's resume for a win over Ottke and his resume would look significantly better. He was also unfortunate enough to miss out on Collins, which would of been another good scalp.

We all know Calzaghe would have beaten Otke. The fact, that he was not prepared to negotiate and take a raw deal to get to him definately hurts his legacy and how he is rated.

I agree with you about the bullshit comments that both Benn and Eubanks have made about Joe. I think a prime Eubank would take out Calzaghe via decision. A prime Benn would have been a 50-50 fight.

[sambob]

Man every day a fcuking joe C hater makes thread about him here , prob 2 - 3 a day , if he was sh1t no one would talk about him , all u get r jealous yanks and other prats who do not want to hear the truth that joe C is p4p 2-3 .

I would say joe gets hated on here as much as floyld , the no.1 p4p .

Best of all i can't wait for the excusses when he knocks out hopkins .

Wow, great job not actually reading the thread, or at the very least the starting post and STILL commenting on what was not said in the thread at all.

[Gneus7]

IMO Calzaghe's a top 5 p4p boxer Pacqquiao & Mayweather are 1 and 2.

[SevenSamurai]

Hell, they will. Usually after after a dale comes a peak. But I am not sure if Capello is the right man. He speaks no English.

Do you remember this thread that you started about Kessler-Calzaghe?

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[The taff]

sure i'll even name 6 better than JC and whom i rate above him on another level any of these would have beaten jc easily cant really count the jc eubank fight he was never the same after what happened to watson and jc hardly dominated him just a flash knockdown in first eubank was up after 2 seconds and fine.

eubank
benn
mclellan
rjj
collins
johnson

Collins better than Calzaghe?? Really :lol:

Thats why Collins pulled out of their fight about 10 days before they were due to fight as he couldn't get motivated for it. No he was gonna get his arse whipped and he knew it.

Your arguement could be with Eubank that he was over the hill thats why joe beat him, but also Calzaghe had had less experience. That was Joe's 1st real hard fight, and he came through, he learned loads from that fight.

Benn a possibility, although i think Joe would have edged it due to work rate and speed, plus Benns chin weren't that great.

RJJ yes but joe would have given a good fight
McClellan yes but not a guaranteed winner if they had met

Johnson NO.