90's Heavyweights

[cross_trainer]

How much smaller, on average, would they be without steroids? Moreover, since we assume perfect steroid testing in hypothetical matchups, how much will they be penalized in speed/strength/size/stamina against the likes of Ali or Frazier?

[Senya13]

I posted average height and weight of heavyweights by decade, according to boxrec data. Do you want to say that almost every heavyweight that is listed in boxrec database in the 1990's has been using them?

[cross_trainer]

I posted average height and weight of heavyweights by decade, according to boxrec data. Do you want to say that almost every heavyweight that is listed in boxrec database in the 1990's has been using them?

It is likely that a very large proportion of the top contenders were using them, and probably still are--as was the case with many major sports in the 1990's.

[Mendoza]

How much smaller, on average, would they be without steroids? Moreover, since we assume perfect steroid testing in hypothetical matchups, how much will they be penalized in speed/strength/size/stamina against the likes of Ali or Frazier?


Steroids has nothing do due with height, but it can certainly add some muscle weight. Since we don't know who the users were besides implications on Morrison and Holyfield, it is best to avoid the question all together. Weight lifting strength does not appear to greatly help power. Some strong fighters can't punch at all. Some weak fighters in a weight room can hit a ton.

[TBooze]

It is likely that a very large proportion of the top contenders were using them, and probably still are--as was the case with many major sports in the 1990's.

Prove it! You can get done for slander even on the internet.

Toney has been found guilty and should be banned for life, ditto anyone else who has their moment in court and is found guilty.

It maybe a painful pill to swallow, but you are innocent until proven guilty.

[Senya13]

The stats included all heavyweights, not just top contenders. Besides, steroids don't make people taller. Average height had increased also.

[UpWithEvil]

It maybe a painful pill to swallow, but you are innocent until proven guilty.

In the legal system. The idea that a ruling forced to comply with the restrictions of an American court of law is somehow the only standard to be considered is ridiculous. Maybe you're one of the dead-ended still proclaiming OJ Simpson's innocence as established in court, but that puts you in a distinct minority.

[mario]

steroids do not help any athlete, it does not create skill or talent, it builds up cosmetic, inflated, non-useable muscle. It tends to make them fight in shorter bursts and they burn out faster. Think of Vargas in the De La Hoya fight as a prime example. For some reason I still can't figure out, their chins tend to go. Also their bodies break down much faster when being hit. They become much more injury prone, both in and out of the ring.

[UpWithEvil]

steroids do not help any athlete

Except Ben Johnson, Mark McGwire, Roy Jones Juicer, oh lawdy, do I really need to make this list? You think all of these athletes are taking these drugs for placebo value?

[cross_trainer]

Steroids has nothing do due with height, but it can certainly add some muscle weight. Since we don't know who the users were besides implications on Morrison and Holyfield, it is best to avoid the question all together. Weight lifting strength does not appear to greatly help power. Some strong fighters can't punch at all. Some weak fighters in a weight room can hit a ton.

When I said "bigger", I was referring to size gained with muscle, not height.

[cross_trainer]

Prove it! You can get done for slander even on the internet.

Toney has been found guilty and should be banned for life, ditto anyone else who has their moment in court and is found guilty.

It maybe a painful pill to swallow, but you are innocent until proven guilty.

You'll note I didn't name anyone specifically, so I very much doubt the heavyweight division is going to come after me over the internet. I'm referring to the top 10 as an aggregate. If you'll recall, we've had several discussions similar to this in the past, so it's hardly new territory I'm covering.

Now then...consider how many athletes in every sport are using steroids, and then how many get caught. Steroids can be wiped clean from the system before testing can pick them up, and yet we've still had several heavyweights busted for steroids. I doubt that weight training alone can account for some of our recently "blown up" fighters.

[Senya13]

Except Ben Johnson, Mark McGwire, Roy Jones Juicer, oh lawdy, do I really need to make this list? You think all of these athletes are taking these drugs for placebo value?
This has been discussed before. Nobody presented any proof whatsoever that RJJ ever used steroids. Ephedra is not a steroid.

[UpWithEvil]

Nobody presented any proof whatsoever that RJJ ever used steroids.

Well then, allow me to be your nobody!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[unitas]

Well then, allow me to be your nobody!

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

thats a fake.:D

[Jack]

Where does the assumption the heavyweights were on steroids? As far as I'm aware, designer steroids are relatively new to the market. I'm a pro-wrestling fan, and on most US news channels, they have been interviewing wrestlers, who often use them, and experts. The general consensus is that drugs have become much harder to find post-2000. Probably the last 5years.

If you compared the use of steroids from the Tour De France in the 90's and now, I'm sure more owuld use now. However, a much smaller ratio of users will get found out, because it's easier to mask them.

I'm not saynig 90's boxers didn't use, but I find it hard to believe noe of the top ones were found out.

[Senya13]

If you took time to read the two interviews of people who gave away that document, you would know that both of them admitted to knowing almost nothing about steroids, and when they wrote those two letters, they simply didn't know the difference between a steroid and a prohibited substance. Ephedra-based drugs were prohibited, although it happened only a couple of years after that fight, but they were probably included to the list earlier, while they were still researching if it does harm to health or not. Jones admitted to taking a ephedra-based Ripped Fuel. But the thing is not only ephedra is not a steroid, but it doesn't help to build up muscles, on the contrary it helps to reduce weight. The official research by US federal organizations claimed they found no useful advantages that ephedra-based drugs give to anyone, except reduce weight. The only reason why they were prohibited is because of possible harm to health in some cases.

[Senya13]

U.S. Food and Drug Administration decisions about ephedra-based drugs ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
Federal agency NCCAM's summary ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) about the same thing but in more simple language:
After a careful review of the available evidence about the risks and benefits of ephedra in supplements, the FDA found that these supplements present an unreasonable risk of illness or injury to consumers. The data showed little evidence of ephedra's effectiveness, except for short-term weight loss, while confirming that the substance raises blood pressure and stresses the heart. The increased risk of heart problems and strokes negates any benefits of weight loss.
...
There is no evidence that ephedra products enhance athletic performance. There is little evidence of any benefit except for short-term weight loss.

[UpWithEvil]

It wasn't ephedra that Roy Jones Juicer tried to hide behind, it was androstenedione. Ephedra is a stimulant, not an anabolic, and would not result in a positive test for anabolic steroids.

But thanks for playing "Let's Make Excuses For Roy Jones Who Juices"!

Roy Jones Jr. and Richard Hall both tested positive for the testosterone precursor androstenedione after Jones defeated Hall to retain his undisputed world light heavyweight championship in Indianapolis in 2000. Jones insisted his test was the result of ingesting the supplement Ripped Fuel.

- ESPN.com 3/1/07
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Senya13]

I see you have taken time to look at wikipedia article. But sorry to disappoint you.
1) Androstenedione is not an anabolic steroid.
2) Androstenedione wasn't included in the list of prohibited drugs until several years later after Jones-hall fight.
3) The claim that Ripped Fuel contains androstenedione is completely false. It never contained it.
You can look up these facts yourself, they are easy to be found.

[Duodenum]

If the 15 round championship distance was reinstated, steroid use might actually become a liabilty, as would larger muscles requiring more oxygen. A greater premium would once again be placed on muscular endurance, necessitating greater streamlining.

When boxers have to train for longer distances, the bodyweights of most probably would decline back to the levels they always would have been, had the 15 round maximum limit been retained. Far from advancing boxer safety, the shorter 12 round distance has undermined it by facilitating damaging growth substance abuse.

Declining defensive skill will manifest itself in earlier and increasing cases of pugilistica dementia, and Parkinson's Syndrome, among retired boxers. Furthermore the skyrocketing use of growth enhancing stimulants, both legal and illicit, eventually shall betray itself through the mounting consequence of ailments like cancer in former athletes, and occasionally in still active competitors.

Over the last century, boxers who moved up in weight simply didn't increase their muscular dimensions like inflated dummys, let alone inflated dummys who also maintained their lighter speed and reflexes. In past eras, boxers who succeeded into middle age exchanged their loss of physical advantages with guile and experience expressed through the demonstration of new skills and progressive behavioral adaptations.

When Ray Robinson challenged Joey Maxim, his weight was well under the middleweight limit (and it was a dominant performance on the scorecards). Robbie did not inflate like a balloon. Nor did Archie Moore, when he was in his late thirties.

The idea that modern boxers can bulk up their muscles like bodybuilders, when in their late 30s, without sacrificing speed or endurance, and by foregoing the introduction of growth enhancing substances into their systems, is a bit much to swallow.

Yes, extraordinary muscular development can take place as a result of modern exercise methods, but to succeed at such an undertaking during middle age would generally require a dedicated bodybuilding regimen, one which wouldn't likely allow for the retention and advance of speed, quickness, and endurance.

Over the course of sports history, the importance of size has been largely cyclical. At some point, smaller athletes with superior skill and creative intelligence have outmaneuvered, surpassed and rendered larger performers obsolete, and will do so again, ad infinitum. At some level of development, technique and human consciousness always trump physical advantages.

If a longer time limit is ever reintroduced into boxing, today's huge dinosaurs will trudge off into the jungle and disappear.

[mario]

i swear they do not help, they only hurt an athlete, its all cosmetic, i'm a firm believer in that theory, whether they cut down or bulk up, you can't manifest talent

[UpWithEvil]

I see you have taken time to look at wikipedia article.
I don't need Wikipedia to know that ephedra isn't a steroid.

1) Androstenedione is not an anabolic steroid.
It's an androgenic steroid. All androgenic steroids have some anabolic effect. In fact, it isn't uncommon for physiologists and endocrinologists to refer to "Anabolic/Androgenic Steroids", or "AAS".

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

2) Androstenedione wasn't included in the list of prohibited drugs until several years later after Jones-hall fight.
Yes it was. At least, according to Marian Muhammad of the IBF, author of the document in question:

"Because [Roy Jones Jr.] positive for substance(s) that are supposed to be banned by our organization. Roy took our title into the ring; it doesn't matter who the lead organization was."

Now you can try to weasel your way out of these sad facts by pointing out that the WBA was the "lead" sanctioning body for the fight, and the WBA had not banned androstenedione, but that's just lawyering your way around the facts. Androstenedione was banned by the IBF, Jones was tested by the IBF, and he failed.

3) The claim that Ripped Fuel contains androstenedione is completely false. It never contained it.
So Jones is a shameless liar running away from the consequences of his cheating. I'm not surprised. Still, it doesn't change the fact that Roy Jones Juicer blamed his positive steroid test on having used "Ripped Fuel".

And, of course, TwinLabs "Nor Andro Ripped Fuel" DOES contain 50mg of androstenedione per capsule.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

No more excuses - 'tis Roy Jones who juices!

[ChrisPontius]

I posted average height and weight of heavyweights by decade, according to boxrec data. Do you want to say that almost every heavyweight that is listed in boxrec database in the 1990's has been using them?

Interesting, do you have a link to that?

[Mendoza]

Jones admitted using steroids though his attorney

[Senya13]

I don't need Wikipedia to know that ephedra isn't a steroid.
I mentioned wikipedia about andro, not about ephedra.


It's an androgenic steroid. All androgenic steroids have some anabolic effect. In fact, it isn't uncommon for physiologists and endocrinologists to refer to "Anabolic/Androgenic Steroids", or "AAS".
The fact is anabolic steroid != prohormone, they are different types of steroids. The letter mentions "anabolic steroid" explicitly.

Yes it was. At least, according to Marian Muhammad of the IBF, author of the document in question:

"Because [Roy Jones Jr.] positive for substance(s) that are supposed to be banned by our organization. Roy took our title into the ring; it doesn't matter who the lead organization was."
The letter mentions no names of what substance Jones tested positive for.

Here is the text of Controlled Substances Act ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) that was in use at the time of Jones-Hall fight. It doesn't mention prohormones, such as androstenedione.

Here is the Implementation of the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 2004 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) that amended the CSA, and was effective starting January 2005. In particular, it changes the following part:

2. In Sec. 1300.01(b), paragraph (4) is revised to read as follows:
Sec. 1300.01 Definitions relating to controlled substances.
* * * * *
[[Page 74657]]
(b) * * *
(4) The term anabolic steroid means any drug or hormonal substance, chemically and pharmacologically related to testosterone (other than estrogens, progestins, corticosteroids, and dehydroepiandrosterone), and includes:

...
(ix) 4-androstenedione (androst-4-en-3,17-dione)


And, of course, TwinLabs "Nor Andro Ripped Fuel" DOES contain 50mg of androstenedione per capsule.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Didn't see this version of it before. I guess because they removed it from Twinlab site. But the thing is, that doesn't change anything, as andro was not a banned substance back in 2000, it was only banned from January 2005, see above. And it is not an 'anabolic steroid' again, the letter mentions "positive reading for anabolic steroid". Back in 2000 the definition of anabolic steroid didn't include prohormones.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Prove it! You can get done for slander even on the internet.

Toney has been found guilty and should be banned for life, ditto anyone else who has their moment in court and is found guilty.

It maybe a painful pill to swallow, but you are innocent until proven guilty.



Yep, but we all have that feeling in our hearts, when we watch an athlete we like and support rise from number 77 in thre world to #1 at the age of 28 and, although we don't want to, deep down we know something is not quite legit.

[NickHudson]

Pure power athletes benefit from steroid use. Endurance athletes find them detrimental.

Boxing is part power, part endurance.

I agree with the posters who see possible benefits in terms of power punching, but diminished ability to put combinations together, and complete power-outs (!) in the championship rounds.

Except Ben Johnson, Mark McGwire, Roy Jones Juicer, oh lawdy, do I really need to make this list? You think all of these athletes are taking these drugs for placebo value?

[joe33]

Im 6ft 3 and 19 stone,i work out 4 times a week very heavily with weights,and also run to and back from the gym as a warm up and warm down,i also work,thing im getting at here,is im very well built not a bodybuilder by any means,but im a very large guy,and ive never touched drugs in my life,i hate needles any way,and dont want to take any chances with so many pills about,i eat well,get plenty of rest
What im saying,is i dont believe every 90s HW did roids,remember they are full time athletes,god if i could just train all week and not work that would be great,id be fucking huge.But i like working,and would get bored just training all the damn time,I just feel far to many people are to keen to lump any one these days as a roid user,when i bet a large percentage just do what they do,and look like they look through hard work.

[Muchmoore]

steroids do not help any athlete, it does not create skill or talent, it builds up cosmetic, inflated, non-useable muscle. It tends to make them fight in shorter bursts and they burn out faster. Think of Vargas in the De La Hoya fight as a prime example. For some reason I still can't figure out, their chins tend to go. Also their bodies break down much faster when being hit. They become much more injury prone, both in and out of the ring.

Adding strength, and speed dont help :lol:

[Senya13]

Marian Muhammad stated that she didn't understand much about anabolic steroids when she wrote that letter, and from her interview it is obvious that she's not aware that not just anabolic steroids are banned. Notice the singular form of 'anabolic steroid' and 'IBF have banned it'. At no point she or Jake Hall mention the name of the substance exclusively.
Roy Jones Jr never admitted he had taken an anabolic steroid, he admitted to taking Ripped Fuel, without clarification whether it was Non Andro Ripped Fuel Stack or the supplement named simply 'Ripped Fuel', the one which contains ephedra. Androstenedione was not considered illegal, nor was it considered to be an anabolic steroid at the time the positive test had taken place.

The definition of 'anabolic steroid' that is used now in the list of banned substances has been changed in 2004, by the document I gave a link to in this thread.

To confirm that androstenedione wasn't made illegal until 2004, here's the press release made by Twinlab on March 12, 2004 ([Only registered and activated users can see links]):

TWINLAB CORPORATION ISSUES STATEMENT IN RESPONSE TO FDA WARNING LETTER CONCERNING ANDROSTENEDIONE ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Here is the warning letter ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) that Twinlab is responding to, dated March 11, 2004. And the press release ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) dated the same day.

Here is the letter ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) from TwinLab to FDA, concerning Nor Andro Ripped Fuel Stack, which is a notification to FDA about existence of such dietary supplement for its further review by the administration, according to 403 (r)(6) of the Federal Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act ([Only registered and activated users can see links]). It is dated May 26, 2000 (Jones-Hall fight had taken place on May 13).

Jake Hall's interview ([Only registered and activated users can see links]) (2003)
Through his attorney, Jones admitted he had been taking an over-the-counter product called Ripped Fuel. That's not illegal but it is an anabolic steroid according to the IBF and other other sanctioning bodies.
Ripped Fuel is a dietary supplement, not an anabolic steroid, it wasn't such by FDA, it wasn't such by CSA act before the 2004 amendment. The statement is also contradictory that Ripped Fuel is not illegal, but at the same time it's an anabolic steroid per his claim, anabolic steroids were actually illegal at the time, and how can Ripped Fuel be anabolic steroid and not be illegal, Jake Hall doesn't explain. Thus his statement
Whether that's what he took or not we don't know, but he did test positive and admitted to taking a steroid.
is completely false, as Jones has not done such a thing. It also doesn't make sense for Jones to openly admitting of taking an anabolic steroid, howmany sportsmen have you seen doing this? He admitted to taking Ripped Fuel, a fully legal dietary supplement at the time, not banned by FDA that regulates such supplements and advises other orgainzations accordingly about a list of exact such products that should be banned.

[fists of fury]

Why do pro cyclists take steroids if it doesn't boost endurance?

[fists of fury]

Senya, use your common sense.
How does a guy go from 175 to 193 without any apparent speed loss, and carrying not an ounce of extra bodyfat? Jones started his career as a jnr. Middleweight for heaven's sake. That's 154 lbs.
Okay, perhapes he was still growing a bit. He probably matured at around 160 or so.
Now, he puts on an extra 33 lbs. of pure muscle with no speed or stamina loss. If Jones had gotten to 193 looking decidedly fleshier and carrying some extra muscle I could believe he had bulked up by using weights alone.
But that super ripped, muscular phenom that fought Ruiz? Nah, sorry. His walk around weight must have been close to 215 lbs.

[Senya13]

Who is talking about John Ruiz fight? The positive test A happened in May 2000, after RJJ - Richard Hall fight. Jones never tested positive for any banned substances before or after this fight, including the John Ruiz fight. How did he get to 193? The answer is on this site ([Only registered and activated users can see links]).

[fists of fury]

What are your thoughts about the Ruiz fight? Was Jones clean or not?

[Senya13]

Mackie Shilstone is too well-known figure (since 1980s when he helped Michael Spinks win the title from Holmes) to use banned substances without anyone learning about it.

[ChrisPontius]

I posted average height and weight of heavyweights by decade, according to boxrec data. Do you want to say that almost every heavyweight that is listed in boxrec database in the 1990's has been using them?
Interesting, do you have a link to that?


Well?

[Senya13]

Later today. My notes archive is at home, I'm at work now.

[Senya13]

Hmm, actually found it again on the forum where it was originally posted. But it's in kilograms and centimeters, not pounds and inches, sorry.

Average weight of all heavyweights (kg)
1880-1899 - 81,3
1900-1919 - 84,57
1920-1939 - 84,80
1940-1959 - 85,72
1960-1979 - 88,78
1980-1999 - 96,42
2000-2005 - 101,62

Average weight of all heavyweights, 5-years periods (kg)
1961-1965 87,10
1966-1970 88,87
1971-1975 90,47
1976-1980 92,19
1981-1985 91,89
1986-1990 94,23
1991-1995 97,32
1996-2000 100,62
2001-2005 101,91

Average height of all heavyweights (cm)
1880-1899 - 177
1900-1919 - 178
1920-1939 - 179
1940-1959 - 180
1960-1979 - 181
1980-1999 - 184
2000-2005 - 188

Average height of all heavyweights, 5-years periods (cm)
1961-1965 181
1966-1970 181
1971-1975 181
1976-1980 181
1981-1985 182
1986-1990 183
1991-1995 185
1996-2000 187
2001-2005 188