Sullivan or Jeffries? Who is the Harder Man?

[McGrain]

I don't mean in the ring though.

They're at a bar and having a drop then Jeffries says something about the Irish or something and it's on.

Who takes it?

And can you think of anyone brave enough to try to seperate them?

[cross_trainer]

Hard to tell. I may have to go with Jeffries, despite my respect for Sullivan's fighting abilities. Although his style is less well suited to bareknuckle conditions, Jeffries has 30 pounds on Sullivan and fought in longer, tougher, more gruelling bouts. He was also the superior wrestler.

Of course, Sullivan's power may end it early, as even Jeffries has not felt that kind of hitting ability.

[Duodenum]

I think Jeff would keep his head about him, and that could be an advantage against a smaller adversary who's lost his temper.

[janitor]

And can you think of anyone brave enough to try to seperate them?

Perhaps Joe Louis if it kicks of in Ceasars Palace?

He did seperate Sonny Liston and Muhamad Ali once when they were intent on going at it.

[McGrain]

Perhaps Joe Louis if it kicks of in Ceasars Palace?

Fine choice!

He did seperate Sonny Liston and Muhamad Ali once when they were intent on going at it.

Epand upon this if you possibly can.

[apollack]

William Burns, a fighter and brother of Sullivan opponent Jack Burns, said the following of Sullivan:

At his best, from 1878 to 1883, in my opinion, he could easily have trimmed Peter Jackson, Jim Corbett, Frank Slavin, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, or Jack Johnson….

[Bad_Intentions]

this is a hard one.

I'm going for Sullivan. he was one tough son of a gun!.

[janitor]

Expand upon this if you possibly can.

It hapened when young Clay was hounding the then champion trying to get a title shot. They had a showdown in a casino earlier where Liston slapped Clay across the face.

Sony Liston drove by in his car (the bear mobile) and Clay shouted somthing to him. Liston pulled over and confronted Clay seizing him by the lapels and threatening him. Things were about to go critical and old Joe Louis pushed them apart.

Apparently they felt honoured to have their fight broken up by the greatest heavyweight of all time because the situation was contained.

[janitor]

William Burns, a fighter and brother of Sullivan opponent Jack Burns, said the following of Sullivan:

At his best, from 1878 to 1883, in my opinion, he could easily have trimmed Peter Jackson, Jim Corbett, Frank Slavin, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, or Jack Johnson….

Interestingly there have been similar testimonies made about Jeffries. And Peter Jackson for that matter.

[Mendoza]

I have read first hand reports that said Sullivan would have little chance vs Jeffries. John L was a pioneer and a legend, but in the end he failed to meet or beat the best in his era.

[robert ungurean]

I believe Jeffries to be the harder man.
As far as seperating them. How about Sam Langford.

[janitor]

but in the end he failed to meet or beat the best in his era.

I don't think that this is entirely corect.

A lot of the fighters that he is acused of ducking came allong at the taill end of his career when his legacy was complete in any event.

He was past his best when he fought Jake Kilrain and Kilrain was the best challenger available at the time.

[Boilermaker]

I don't think that this is entirely corect.

A lot of the fighters that he is acused of ducking came allong at the taill end of his career when his legacy was complete in any event.

He was past his best when he fought Jake Kilrain and Kilrain was the best challenger available at the time.

Sullivan was the best of his era. there is no doubting that. It is a shame he didnt fight Jackson. As much as i like Jackson, i am fairly certain that Sullivan would have knocked him out. In any case the fight would have proved no more than Jeffries win over Jackson proved. Sullivan was past prime.

Jeffries Sullivan would be interesting. In his prime Sullivan knocked them all out in the early rounds,much quicker than jeffries. And in later years, he proved as tough as they come. I get the feeling that Sullivan, being the dirtier fighter and more likely to react with a head butt and knee has an advantage in the situation remarked to above, but only slight. The bloke most likely to pull them apart would probably be Dempsey.

[janitor]

Sullivan was the best of his era. there is no doubting that. It is a shame he didnt fight Jackson. As much as i like Jackson, i am fairly certain that Sullivan would have knocked him out. In any case the fight would have proved no more than Jeffries win over Jackson proved. Sullivan was past prime.


I beleive that at the verry least there was a window where Jackson would have beaten Sullivan.

I do agree that it would not have meant much in terms of Sullivan's legacy though.

[UpWithEvil]

I get the feeling that Sullivan, being the dirtier fighter and more likely to react with a head butt and knee has an advantage in the situation remarked to above, but only slight.

Jeffries was no slouch in the dirty fighting category himself. Watch the stabilized footage from the second Sharkey fight and you'll see a one-armed Jeffries throwing forearms, kidney punches, hammerfists to the nose, pretty well running the gamut of illegal techniques. At one point in the second Ruhlin fight Jeffries appears to take the laces of his glove and rake Ruhlin's face from forehead to chin, prompting Ruhlin to duck out and retreat while shaking his head.

[janitor]

Who is the hardest puncher of the two then?

I lean slightly towards Sullivan who apears to have inflicted some sickening knockouts on his oponents.

[C. M. Clay II]

I'd say Jeffries since Sullivan was knocked down by a 155lb. man, and I don't see that happeneing to Jeffries. Plus Jeffries had about 20lb on Sullivan, so there you go.

[guilalah]

apollock post#6
William Burns, a fighter and brother of Sullivan opponent Jack Burns, said the following of Sullivan:

At his best, from 1878 to 1883, in my opinion, he could easily have trimmed Peter Jackson, Jim Corbett, Frank Slavin, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jim Jeffries, or Jack Johnson….


What's really interesting about this post is that Burns places Sullivan's prime so far back, implying he was a better fighter in 1878 than he was in the mid-1880's.

I've also read lightweight Jack MacAullife's opinion that, before he began dissipating, Sullivan was the greater than all his successors.(MacAuliffe opined this shortly after Baer-Carnera. He also said he regarded Tunney as the #2 heavyweight).

[cross_trainer]

I'd say Jeffries since Sullivan was knocked down by a 155lb. man, and I don't see that happeneing to Jeffries. Plus Jeffries had about 20lb on Sullivan, so there you go.

On the other hand, that was the only knockdown of his career, and was a flash KD. Mitchell was a pretty hard puncher, for that matter--he was regarded (along with Jem Smith) as the best heavyweight in England.

[C. M. Clay II]

On the other hand, that was the only knockdown of his career, and was a flash KD. Mitchell was a pretty hard puncher, for that matter--he was regarded (along with Jem Smith) as the best heavyweight in England.

But the only person to floor Jeffries was Jack Johnson a 205lb. hard hitting heavyweight, when Jeffries was way over the hill on top of that.:good

[cross_trainer]

But the only person to floor Jeffries was Jack Johnson a 205lb. hard hitting heavyweight, when Jeffries was way over the hill on top of that.:good
Quite so. My point was simply that Sullivan's chin is still pretty good. :good

The amount of punishment Jeffries took in the Johnson fight is often overlooked. It's probably a better testament to his chin than even his fight with Fitzsimmons.

[C. M. Clay II]

Quite so. My point was simply that Sullivan's chin is still pretty good. :good

The amount of punishment Jeffries took in the Johnson fight is often overlooked. It's probably a better testament to his chin than even his fight with Fitzsimmons.

Yes, I do admit that Jeffries could take a great punch, after seeing a picture of Jeffries walking to his corner after the end of the 14th round. There was blood everywhere on his body, his nose was broken, mouth smashed, etc. Few people could have endured that beating under those conditions.

[apollack]

The reason I favor Sullivan is because of speed and aggressive ferocity. I simply think that he was so fast that he would hit Jeff with his right, and Jeff would see power like he never saw in his career. I don't think Jeff was as fast as Sullivan, nor as ferocious. Jeff was a bit of a slower starter and had a gradual, methodical style against his best opponents. I think the longer the fight went the better for Jeff, but great chin or not, when he got hit by Sullivan's speed and ferocity, not so sure how much he'd have to give even if he was still on his feet. Fitz hit him at will in the rematch, and Bob was only about 170 pounds soaking wet. Choynski and Sharkey gave him trouble, and they were also nowhere near as big, fast, strong, or skilled as Sullivan. Observers at the time said that Sully would kill Choynski and Sharkey. Choynski admitted it. If 200-plus Sullivan hit Jeff like Choynski, Sharkey, and Fitz did, it might be good night. Jeff did not move like a Corbett did, and that is the style one needed to give Sully trouble. That said, Jeff was one tough rugged dude, with great condition, and could wear Sully out himself if he got through the early rounds. Interesting fight.

[apollack]

Professor Mike Donovan said of Sullivan,

“He can settle any man in the world, sure, and the bigger the man against him, the better it is for him. Let me give you a pointer. I was with him in Hot Springs when they picked a terrible big fellow for him to knock out. I felt of this fellow at the hotel, and I tell you he was something immense. He had the broadest shoulders of any man I ever saw, was as hard as iron, and weighed about 240 pounds. I told John of the kind of a fellow he had to meet. ‘Is he a big fellow?’ says John. ‘You can bet,’ says I. ‘He’s a stunner.’ ‘Then the bigger he is the harder he’ll fall,’ says John…. Well, he knocked that big fellow out in just two punches. He hit him there once,” and Mr. Donovan landed his left under the reporter’s chin. “Then he cross-countered him and he went down. When he came to the fellow was silly….
I tell you that Sullivan thinks no more of knocking a man out than I do of eating an apple.

[Mike South]

Who wins a drinking contest?

[Mendoza]

Who wins a drinking contest?

Irish Whiskey or Scotch?

[Mike South]

Let's say single malt scotch.

[Mendoza]

Let's say single malt scotch.

On St. Patricks day, I'll go with Sullivan. Otherwise I'll take Jeffries. Legand says Jeffries once drank a case of whiskey to shake an illness.

[spittle8]

Professor Mike Donovan said of Sullivan,

“He can settle any man in the world, sure, and the bigger the man against him, the better it is for him. Let me give you a pointer. I was with him in Hot Springs when they picked a terrible big fellow for him to knock out. I felt of this fellow at the hotel, and I tell you he was something immense. He had the broadest shoulders of any man I ever saw, was as hard as iron, and weighed about 240 pounds. I told John of the kind of a fellow he had to meet. ‘Is he a big fellow?’ says John. ‘You can bet,’ says I. ‘He’s a stunner.’ ‘Then the bigger he is the harder he’ll fall,’ says John…. Well, he knocked that big fellow out in just two punches. He hit him there once,” and Mr. Donovan landed his left under the reporter’s chin. “Then he cross-countered him and he went down. When he came to the fellow was silly….
I tell you that Sullivan thinks no more of knocking a man out than I do of eating an apple.
I like to think of the great John L. as being a modern-day Greek Titan, stomping around crushing mortals with his irrestible power and being a menace wherever he goes. Drinking, screwing, and fighting better than the rest. John L. has such a great legend.

[Russell]

I'd day Sullivan no doubt has the better power, where as Jeffries definitely has a better chin and was slightly more refined...

[HomicideHenry]

In a bar fight? In a street brawl? John L. Sullivan all the way!

[mcvey]

What's really interesting about this post is that Burns places Sullivan's prime so far back, implying he was a better fighter in 1878 than he was in the mid-1880's.

I've also read lightweight Jack MacAullife's opinion that, before he began dissipating, Sullivan was the greater than all his successors.(MacAuliffe opined this shortly after Baer-Carnera. He also said he regarded Tunney as the #2 heavyweight).

THE FACT THAT ALL THREE WERE OF IRISH EXTRACTION MAY HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIS CHOICE.:lol:

[fists of fury]

Sullivan for me would be the type to use whatever is at his disposal, be it a whiskey bottle, chair or something similar.
With his temper and eagerness to go at it, I think he'd take Jeff by surprise and end it quickly.

[GPater11093]

Perhaps Joe Louis if it kicks of in Ceasars Palace?

He did seperate Sonny Liston and Muhamad Ali once when they were intent on going at it.

i reckon Jack Dempsey would try to break it up and get involved in it and that would be some brawl.

[he grant]

Jeffries size is blown out of proportion ... I've seen every photo there is of him next to Corbett from every angle and elevation and Corbett was taller. Corbett may have been 6' 2", actually under measured so there is no way Jeffries is more than 6' 1" . In addition, in his big fights he weighted about 208 - 212 . If a prime Sullivan was about 195, Jeffries did not have this huge size advantage ...

That being said, both guys were hard core tough as nails and who knows ... I think Sullivan was tougher at the end of the day as few remember Jeffries came from a bit of a privlidged background while Sullivan came from the streets ...

[sitiyzal]

Jeffries is maybe too nice a guy for this brutish tomfoolery.

John L via shameless ungentlemanly tactics which could only be described as foul.

[djanders]

In these circustances, I think Jim would apologize and give it to John by default. Nothing to break up that way. :D

[janitor]

I would be inclined to take Jeffries in a street fight moreso than in the ring.

Jeffries was a world class wrestler and if he were able to graple in an unchecked manner he would likley be able to take Sullivan to the floor.

It is reported that Herbert Slade got the better of Jeffries in a bar fight while they were engaged in their vaudaville tour. Sullivan was extremely drunk became violent and headbutted Slade. Slade took Sullivan to the ground and was able to hold him down untill the police arived. My guess is that Jeffries would be able to replicate the feat.

[janitor]

[quote=sitiyzal;4156096]Jeffries is maybe too nice a guy for this brutish tomfoolery.


Jeffries was a verry decent man in many respects but he was not a man who you took liberties with.

If you pissed him off you were in trouble.

Sullivan was a verry diferent man when he was drunk to when he was sober.

While sober he was usualy quite gentlemanly.

When he had a few drinks inside him he would smash up a sallon GBH several bouncers and push the piano through the window.

The next day he would be all apologetic and shelling out $100 bills to pay for the damage.