Could Sugar Ray Robinson be beaten at middleweight?

[ajohnfp]

Well?

[brooklyn1550]

Yes

[David B]

Charley Burley
Carmen Basilio
Roy Jones Jr.
prime Michael Nunn

[Robbi]

I would take Hopkins to pull out a decision over Robinson at 160lbs. Even though Robinson is one of the greatest middleweights of all time, he proved to be very beatable. The reason he's rated so highly, was because he won the title five times. Not sure anyone was quite the king of the rematches like Robinson was in the 1950's.

[john garfield]

Yes, he was -- lots of proof in the record books, but it took a helluva fighter to do it, until he was only a shell that showed up.

Like SP pointed out, SRR was nonpareil at welter.

[Jbuz]

Umm... he was beaten there several times...

or do you mean welter?

[McGrain]

Of course; he was beaten there.

Anyone can be beaten.

[Jack Dempsey]

Of course; he was beaten there.

Anyone can be beaten.

Marciano wasn't:yep

[fists of fury]

Well, Sugar was past his best at middlewight and tipped the scales at 154, so he was not even a big middleweight, so sure he could be beaten. Thing is, he'd take a good chunk out of whomever did it.

[RockyJim]

Could be beaten?....he was....Randy Turpin.....Gene Fullmer....Carmen Basilio...
& Paul Pender(twice).....I'd love to have seen him against Hagler......Zale...
Cerdan.....Monzon.....

[TBooze]

Marciano wasn't:yep

Yes he was...;)

[JimmyShimmy]

All this talk about how he was unbeatable at WW yet he was nearly knocked out a few times.

[JohnThomas1]

All this talk about how he was unbeatable at WW yet he was nearly knocked out a few times.

But like Holmes and Ali, nearly may as well have been nothing.

[TBooze]

All this talk about how he was unbeatable at WW yet he was nearly knocked out a few times.

He had his moments, his biggest struggle may of been against Servo; by newspaper accounts Marty was darn unlucky to lose to him second time round

[JimmyShimmy]

But like Holmes and Ali, nearly may as well have been nothing.

Yet I don't consider them 'unbeatable', and I'm sure you don't either.

In 1946, Robinson was arguably saved from a long count when he was planted by Artie Levine.

[JohnThomas1]

Yet I don't consider them 'unbeatable', and I'm sure you don't either.

In 1946, Robinson was arguably saved from a long count when he was planted by Artie Levine.

You and i both know nobody is realistically unbeatable, but SRR would probably be as close as anyone at 147. Closer actually. Middleweight, well damn it's crowded. 175 is crowded. 135 is crowded. Feather is crowded. Bantam is a bit more open but Jofre has Zarate and Olivares none the less. Personally i think Ali and SRR are a bit above the rest here with jofre worthy of big mention. Hank (Or Pep if you like) has Pep, Saddler. Sanchez, Fenech, Nelson and co. Duran has Williams, Whitaker, Leonard and maybe a couple more. Yes, i'll bracket Ali with SRR and worthy mention Jofre.

[Thread Stealer]

Obviously, yes.

[Jack Dempsey]

Yes he was...;)

:scaredas: Sacrilege:nono

[enquirer]

JT,do you think robinson was closer to being unbeatable at welter than leonard?

[JohnThomas1]

JT,do you think robinson was closer to being unbeatable at welter than leonard?

Yes. I believe Robinson would beat Leonard. I also believe Hearns had one helluva chance of beating SRL in a rematch at 147. Having said all this next to nobody else beats SRL at 147 IMO. Gavilan, Griffith, Napoles, all super hard fights but i can see Ray L finding the way home in all of them.

[JohnThomas1]

What are your thoughts on the matter, it's very tight no matter what way we look at it. I have the two Ray's 1 and 2.

[Robbi]

What are your thoughts on the matter, it's very tight no matter what way we look at it. I have the two Ray's 1 and 2.
Can't argue with that. Robinson's record up until he challenged Lamotta for the middleweight title was something like 120-1, with the only loss suffered coming at the hands of Lamotta in 1943 at welterweight. Even though little footage exists of Robinson at welterweight in his prime, we can still gauge how good he was after seeing many of his middleweight matches. Although Leonard never had the longetivy of Robinson at welterweight, he does have quality wins. Benitez, Hearns and Duran among others.

[Marciano Frazier]

Well? Of course he could be. He already was. And a good few fighters from other eras could have done it.

[JohnThomas1]

Can't argue with that. Robinson's record up until he challenged Lamotta for the middleweight title was something like 120-1, with the only loss suffered coming at the hands of Lamotta in 1943 at welterweight.

Remember too, the loss was not actually a welter loss. No matter what Robinson weighed, Jake was WAY over 147 of course. As a matter of fact technically he came in as a light heavyweight.

[heerko koois]

:? :rofl John Thomas..i think that skinny runt on your avatar gave me VD!

[enquirer]

It is hard to evalute robinson at welter because of little footage. When folks say he would have been better at 147 than at middle i query this,as some fighters improve as they go up or just maintain the same level,eg eubank improved at supermiddle from middle,duran still maintained his greatmess 12 pounds up from welter,and SOME say tommy was better at 154 than 147. (im not sure about that actually.) Some fighters do actually need those extra pounds to increase their power,speed and stamina,more eaxamples are trinidad improving from 147 to 154/160,manny paqauio from 122 to 126/130,moseley from 135 to 147,de la hoya 130 to 147 and jc chavez improving greatly from 130 to 135.....
What is it that says robinson was better as a welter than a middle,theorising or actual eye witness accounts?
Finally,we have to say leonards 147 title opposition is better than robinsons,benitez,duran twice and hearns,all at or very near their primes....Could robbie have fought rays opposition from 79-81 at welter and emerge unbeaten or with only one close loss like ray?

[Black Eyes To You]

Fullmer and Basilio both beat him at middleweight and a couple of others I can't remember right now. I would of loved to see SRR fight Hearns and Fullmer fight Hagler. Oh well. :conf

[Robbi]

Fullmer and Basilio both beat him at middleweight and a couple of others I can't remember right now. I would of loved to see SRR fight Hearns and Fullmer fight Hagler. Oh well. :conf

Bobo Olson and Randy Turpin were the others to dethrone him while champion at 160lbs.

[Vantage_West]

Marciano wasn't:yep:nono

[JohnThomas1]

John Thomas..i think that skinny runt on your avatar gave me VD!

I bet the lights were out, she had a penchent for swapping places with her brother, so they say, but no batman suit

:D