Ali vs Foreman : 2

[garymcfall]

Right people, how do you see a rematch going between these guys, lets give it a year after the Rumble in the Jungle and both fighters sign to fight again. Does Foreman fight smarter and beat Ali? Or does Ali's superb boxing skill and intelligence prevail again? Opinions...

[apollack]

Ali wins every time. Rematch - Foreman paces himself better and does not fall into the rope a dope as much, lasts more rounds, but still gets stopped in rounds 10-15. Ali simply had too much speed, hit George too easily, and had the defense to make George miss and get frustrated. Even in his prime, George was never a late rounds fighter, and Ali would make him fight hard in the late rounds.

[rekcutnevets]

If George paces himself, he might last the distance. I would pick Ali by decision.

[RAMPAGE0017]

George would've beaten him in a rematch.... UD.

[hopkinsfan07]

the Rope-a-dope wouldent work twice Forman tko/6

[Luigi1985]

Foreman would TKO Ali later...

[Duodenum]

In a rematch, Muhammad would have gotten George in a faster, larger ring, one he could dance in without his legs getting tired (not that he would have bothered dancing much).

Foreman was already convinced he couldn't knock Muhammad out. George actually didn't fight that poorly in Kinshasa, hammering the exposed left side of Ali's body with his hardest rights, but to no avail. Nor did George possess the handspeed and straight punching needed to successfully go toe-to-toe with Muhammad in mid ring.

George might have gone the distance with Ali in a rematch, but in pacing himself to do so, he would lose a very lopsided decision. If they had met again though, I think it's more likely Ali stops him in the championship rounds.

[JohnThomas1]

In a rematch, Muhammad would have gotten George in a faster, larger ring, one he could dance in without his legs getting tired (not that he would have bothered dancing much).

Foreman was already convinced he couldn't knock Muhammad out. George actually didn't fight that poorly in Kinshasa, hammering the exposed left side of Ali's body with his hardest rights, but to no avail. Nor did George possess the handspeed and straight punching needed to successfully go toe-to-toe with Muhammad in mid ring.

George might have gone the distance with Ali in a rematch, but in pacing himself to do so, he would lose a very lopsided decision. If they had met again though, I think it's more likely Ali stops him in the championship rounds.

Agreed, i'd prolly think Foreman should get the distance in tho a late stoppage is possible. I don't believe Foreman can win, Ali can take plenty of his shots and even if George paces himself Ali will just outbox him over the duration.

[Joe E]

i never knew why foreman did'nt get a rematch with ali.does anybody out there know?:roll:

[Robbi]

Agreed, i'd prolly think Foreman should get the distance in tho a late stoppage is possible. I don't believe Foreman can win, Ali can take plenty of his shots and even if George paces himself Ali will just outbox him over the duration.


Ali would probably have sticked and moved a bit more. Even if he did hit the canvas during the early-mid rounds, no doubt he'd have come back. While Foreman did have a solid jab, it was not nearly as quick and sharp as Ali's. So winning a jabbing contest from the outside, Foreman comes off second best.

[jhar26]

the Rope-a-dope wouldent work twice Forman tko/6
Those loose ropes were part of the reason that it worked the first time. Foreman had to stand in the second row among the spectators to be able to fire any shots at Ali's head. Takes nothing away from Ali's win, it still took someone of his boxing genius to take full advantage of the circumstances as they presented themselves.

[Robbi]

i never knew why foreman did'nt get a rematch with ali.does anybody out there know?:roll:

Foreman was inactive for about 2 years after he fought Ali, and went into a deep depression. Don't think a rematch was on his mind at all. Understandable, after hitting Ali so many times against the ropes with no result gained for his efforts.

[NickHudson]

The range of opinions expressed on this forum is what makes it so damn interesting!

I would never have even suggested this thread, assuming that we all would have agreed that the psychologically broken Foreman could do no better than the first fight, and would probably have done worse.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Foreman was inactive for about 2 years after he fought Ali, and went into a deep depression. Don't think a rematch was on his mind at all. Understandable, after hitting Ali so many times against the ropes with no result gained for his efforts.





Foreman called Ali out for a rematch from late 1975. He was inactive for about 14 months after Zaire. Hardly a week went by without George asking for a rematch, Ali always had an excuse "I will, after two more fights" etc. George was #1 mandatory contender throughout almost all of Ali's reign- until the Young defeat. He was dropped slightly due to inactivity in the Summer of 1975, when Frazier became Mandatory until Manila. After that he was installed as #1 again. Still, no fight (despite him being the biggest name out there and being voted Fighter of the Year for 1976).

[Mendoza]

Right people, how do you see a rematch going between these guys, lets give it a year after the Rumble in the Jungle and both fighters sign to fight again. Does Foreman fight smarter and beat Ali? Or does Ali's superb boxing skill and intelligence prevail again? Opinions...


Ali was a magician, but I do believe a re-match in the United States would produce a different fight.

The out door heat expedited Foreman’s lack of stamina. The hostile crowd ate away at Foreman’s psyche, but it armored Ali. Ali was on a virtual holy mission to defeat Foreman. A cut limited Foreman's sparring. The loose ropes greatly aided Ali’s rope-a-dope tactics.

If the fight was indoors in an air conditioned building. If the crowd was more neutral. If Foreman didn't get cut in camp or had months to heal. If the Ropes didn't sag and allow Ali to lean back from Foreman’s punches.....

All of the X factors in 1974 went Ali's way. A re-match a year later means Foreman would be hungry, and Ail would be older and slower without the above advantages.

Ali gave Norton, Frazier, Cooper, and Liston re-matches, but Foreman never got one. I think Ali and his management understood the conditions for an upset were perfect in the jungle.

[MachineGunMitch]

I dont think ALI would have gotten Forman twice,Forman was mentally shot
before the bell rang in the first fight...A second fight I would think
Forman would be smarter and not fall for ALi's antics but who knows
Forman has done some pretty stupid shit in his career and said some
really puzzling comments - maybe he is really stupid twice

[Duodenum]

I would not be in the least bit surprised if George was hoping that one of his former victims who had previously defeated Ali would win their rubber match for the title. Should Frazier have prevailed in Manila, or Norton in New York, they would have only been considered caretaker champions until facing Foreman. Then, once again as a defending champion, George would have more control over the terms of a rematch with Ali. As a Houston native, if Foreman managed to resolve the issues which had previously induced him to defend the title abroad, he ought to have arranged a rematch defense homecoming in the Astrodome (a very familiar place to Ali, where he previously beat hometown favorite Cleveland Williams, as well as Ernie Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, and Buster Mathis). That shouldn't have been difficult for George to have set up.

In Kinshasa, Ali fought George's fight, and prevailed. Loose ropes ought to have made it easier for Foreman to knock Ali out of the ring, yet it was a miss by George which nearly sent HIM tumbling over the top rope. Foreman got Muhammad in a 16 foot telephone booth with soft flooring, which prevented Ali from moving as he normally would without tiring. Muhammad gave the left side of his body away to George's lethal right without wilting. George was bigger, younger, stronger, and had never sustained a beating like Ali did in the FOTC. Foreman had seemingly proved his boxing skill and endurance earlier, in the first and second Peralta fights.

Muhammad did have the crowd on his side in Kinshasa, just as he did against Holmes in Las Vegas, but the crowd wasn't doing the fighting for him. An awful lot of people have said the cards were stacked in Ali's favor against George, but except for the arena audience, it seems to me that a stronger case could be made for Foreman having the competitive advantages as the match started.

How could an older man simply absorb powerful right hands to the body like that without slowing down? How is it, that George didn't break Ali's left side short ribs, without Muhammad protecting them? How on Earth did Ali rocket off LOOSE ropes with lightning bolt right hands that carried that kind of speed?

When Ali last boxed in an air conditioned Astrodome against hometown opposition, he produced the peak performance of his career. How much faster and harder would his right hands have been, if he'd had tight ropes to rebound them off of? Leaning as far back as he was against those slack ropes in Kinshasa, it was amazing to me that Ali was ever able to reach Foreman's head with right crosses starting from the third row. It blows my mind that even with George able to see them coming from such a long distance away, he couldn't move to avoid them. How much more energy would the older Ali have had in an air conditioned environment? And would George have left the Astrodome in a hearse?

[My dinner with Conteh]

An awful lot of people have said the cards were stacked in Ali's favor against George, but except for the arena audience, it seems to me that a stronger case could be made for Foreman having the competitive advantages as the match started.


Give me partisan crowd ahead of any other advantage every day of the week.



And would George have left the Astrodome in a hearse?


Ali couldn't budge Evangelista (well Alfredo did have a mild paper cut after the fight) so I'm sure George would have gambled his health on a fight at the beginning of 1977. Instead he had to fight another of the Top 5 (having only fought the other four). Makes sense. :huh


ps. Bet he wished he was Tony Tucker, who could just sit there and be installed mandatory contender AND receive a title shot. :bbb

[Duodenum]

Give me partisan crowd ahead of any other advantage every day of the week.Me too, but Ali could perform well before a hostile crowd as well as a supportive one. (So could Dempsey, and other ATGs.) However, I do think the hostility of the Kinshasa audience may have affected George adversely. The old addage that "Justice is blind, while greatness is deaf" could be applied to succeeding despite boxing in an opponent's hometown, or before a resentful public.Ali couldn't budge Evangelista (well Alfredo did have a mild paper cut after the fight) so I'm sure George would have gambled his health on a fight at the beginning of 1977. Instead he had to fight another of the Top 5 (having only fought the other four). Makes sense. :huhTrue enough. However, Earnie Shavers couldn't take out Ali, any more than Muhammad could budge Tomato Evangelista. Could Foreman have won a match where he couldn't knock Ali out?ps. Bet he wished he was Tony Tucker, who could just sit there and be installed mandatory contender AND receive a title shot. :bbbYeah, and I bet he wished he was Tony Tucker, so he would have gotten Tyson in the ring!:think

[Stonehands89]

I have always believed that Ali got lucky against Foreman in Zaire. He was lucky that Foreman played the dope on the rope and failed to pick his punches. He was lucky that the ropes were loose. He was lucky that George's training regiment was disrupted and faulty.

Superstition, circumstances, and luck made Ali what he always was: Destiny's child.

Ali's strategy of sticking and moving was abandoned after the early rounds because George was too aggressive and overwhelming. Ali went to the ropes, talked trash, and gave Dundee fits. But it worked.

Foreman had good reason to regret that fight and it haunted him for 20 years...

Ali did in fact hand Foreman psychological distress as much as a defeat and Foreman was not the same fighter after Zaire ever again. Forget the Lyle fight. The Foreman that rammed through Norton and Frazier was buried. He didn't believe in himself any longer because Ali -by word and deed- got into his head and exploited the self-doubt that is in every Ghetto child.

A rematch circa 1975? If Foreman approached it as a redemption and had a trainer who understood what he needed between the ears, he could have won. Smart strategy would be only the beginning. I would have had Foreman in secret isolation for 3 months to prepare him inside and out. No TV, no radio, and no roads where Ali could drive down in a van and get into George's head. The beast in Foreman would be found again and Ali would have to be dehumanized.

In sum, I believe that Foreman should have beaten Ali and could have. I'm probably alone in the world, but that's okay.

[garymcfall]

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman. I see George fighting smarter, probably winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, maybe even hurting or flooring Ali, but about round 6 or 7 i see Muhammad Ali starting to outmanouver Foreman, stinging him with jabs and straight rights. Muhammd would pick him apart the rest of the fight but wouldnt knock him out and he would take a unanimous decision.

[JohnThomas1]

Ali did in fact hand Foreman psychological distress as much as a defeat and Foreman was not the same fighter after Zaire ever again. Forget the Lyle fight. The Foreman that rammed through Norton and Frazier was buried. He didn't believe in himself any longer because Ali -by word and deed- got into his head and exploited the self-doubt that is in every Ghetto child.


I have been saying this for the longest time, mostly without much fanfare. Once beaten, some fighters are never the same again, Foreman being one of them.

[JohnThomas1]

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman. I see George fighting smarter, probably winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, maybe even hurting or flooring Ali, but about round 6 or 7 i see Muhammad Ali starting to outmanouver Foreman, stinging him with jabs and straight rights. Muhammd would pick him apart the rest of the fight but wouldnt knock him out and he would take a unanimous decision.


Nice assessment.

[jhar26]

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman.
Could be, but why then didn't Foreman get a rematch? George gave Frazier a rematch. If Ali was so sure that he had George's number there was no reason to avoid him.

[Duodenum]

I have always believed that Ali got lucky against Foreman in Zaire. He was lucky that Foreman played the dope on the rope and failed to pick his punches. He was lucky that the ropes were loose. He was lucky that George's training regiment was disrupted and faulty.

Superstition, circumstances, and luck made Ali what he always was: Destiny's child.

Ali's strategy of sticking and moving was abandoned after the early rounds because George was too aggressive and overwhelming. Ali went to the ropes, talked trash, and gave Dundee fits. But it worked.

Foreman had good reason to regret that fight and it haunted him for 20 years...

Ali did in fact hand Foreman psychological distress as much as a defeat and Foreman was not the same fighter after Zaire ever again. Forget the Lyle fight. The Foreman that rammed through Norton and Frazier was buried. He didn't believe in himself any longer because Ali -by word and deed- got into his head and exploited the self-doubt that is in every Ghetto child.

A rematch circa 1975? If Foreman approached it as a redemption and had a trainer who understood what he needed between the ears, he could have won. Smart strategy would be only the beginning. I would have had Foreman in secret isolation for 3 months to prepare him inside and out. No TV, no radio, and no roads where Ali could drive down in a van and get into George's head. The beast in Foreman would be found again and Ali would have to be dehumanized.

In sum, I believe that Foreman should have beaten Ali and could have. I'm probably alone in the world, but that's okay.Great post Stonehands. While I've already offered my differing viewpoint about a rematch, let me ask you this about a different trainer for Foreman. Who should it have been? The first thing Gil Clancy did was instruct George to shorten up on his punches. While Gil has been widely criticized for altering George's attack in this way, it could also be argued that it was a short. sharp, Clancy type punch which ultimately regained the title for Foreman. Before the match with Jimmy Young, Gil admonished George to spend at least three weeks in Puerto Rico to get acclimated to the heat and humidity. Foreman disregarded Clancy's recommendation, and paid dearly for it. ?

(Later, Mike Dokes made the some mistake before his outdoor match with Ocasio, and recieved a gift draw, as Gil, now providing color commentary on CBS, almost immediately made note of revealing bad signs, like excessive perspiration early in the bout. Afterwards, during his post match interview, Clancy ribbed Dokes about it, who humbly and good naturedly replied, "Believe me, Mr. Clancy, I will never make that mistake again!" For the rematch, Dokes indeed spent three weeks training in Puerto Rico, and got Ocasio in an air conditioned indoor facility. Three quick first round knockdowns later, Dokes had easily avenged his draw.The dramatic contrast between their first and second matches does make me wonder what impact an air conditioned environment might have had on the performances of both Ali and Foreman.)

If Gil Clancy was the wrong trainer to guide Ali after Foreman, who might have been better suited to do the job?

[My dinner with Conteh]

I think Muhammad has Foremans number to be honest, just as stylistically Foreman was all wrong for Joe Frazier, Ali is wrong for Foreman. I see George fighting smarter, probably winning the first 3 or 4 rounds, maybe even hurting or flooring Ali, but about round 6 or 7 i see Muhammad Ali starting to outmanouver Foreman, stinging him with jabs and straight rights. Muhammd would pick him apart the rest of the fight but wouldnt knock him out and he would take a unanimous decision.


Good post. I'ts fair to say George would have kittens with Ali, just as Frazier would with him and Ali would with Joe. But I think Foreman would may have nicked a decision in 1977 had he been granted a rematch around the time of the Shavers fight. Earnie nearly won too, some think he did. I think Young and Norton would have beaten Ali that year also...well, when I say 'beaten', I mean, look the better fighter and score more often until a late rally by the judges sees Ali home. ;)

[Stonehands89]

Great post Stonehands. While I've already offered my differing viewpoint about a rematch, let me ask you this about a different trainer for Foreman. Who should it have been? The first thing Gil Clancy did was instruct George to shorten up on his punches. While Gil has been widely criticized for altering George's attack in this way, it could also be argued that it was a short. sharp, Clancy type punch which ultimately regained the title for Foreman. Before the match with Jimmy Young, Gil admonished George to spend at least three weeks in Puerto Rico to get acclimated to the heat and humidity. Foreman disregarded Clancy's recommendation, and paid dearly for it. ?

(Later, Mike Dokes made the some mistake before his outdoor match with Ocasio, and recieved a gift draw, as Gil, now providing color commentary on CBS, almost immediately made note of revealing bad signs, like excessive perspiration early in the bout. Afterwards, during his post match interview, Clancy ribbed Dokes about it, who humbly and good naturedly replied, "Believe me, Mr. Clancy, I will never make that mistake again!" For the rematch, Dokes indeed spent three weeks training in Puerto Rico, and got Ocasio in an air conditioned indoor facility. Three quick first round knockdowns later, Dokes had easily avenged his draw.The dramatic contrast between their first and second matches does make me wonder what impact an air conditioned environment might have had on the performances of both Ali and Foreman.)

If Gil Clancy was the wrong trainer to guide Ali after Foreman, who might have been better suited to do the job?

Clancy may be my favorite expert commentator as well as a favorite trainer. Emile was built on his brain. I still hold a bit of a grudge against him for the advice he gave De La Hoya that prompted the Trinidad loss. And I am not positive that he was the best psychologist for post-Zaire Foreman. Foreman needed that as much as a sensible training regiment... he had to be rebuilt from the inside out!

As it was, it took Jesus and a 10 year lay-off didn't it...

The Ali foil (and for that matter, the Jones and Holyfield foil as well) was Eddie Futch. Futch was in my opinion the single best strategist ever and I go back and forth with him and Arcel as to who is the best corner man of all time.

Eddie Futch.

[Robbi]

Clancy may be my favorite expert commentator as well as a favorite trainer. Emile was built on his brain. I still hold a bit of a grudge against him for the advice he gave De La Hoya that prompted the Trinidad loss. And I am not positive that he was the best psychologist for post-Zaire Foreman. Foreman needed that as much as a sensible training regiment... he had to be rebuilt from the inside out!

As it was, it took Jesus and a 10 year lay-off didn't it...

The Ali foil (and for that matter, the Jones and Holyfield foil as well) was Eddie Futch. Futch was in my opinion the single best strategist ever and I go back and forth with him and Arcel as to who is the best corner man of all time.

Eddie Futch.
Clancy and Alcazar were a good partnership for De La Hoya's corner. Alcazar handled the daily duties, with Clancy arriving at Big Bear about three weeks before each fight to put the final touches on De La Hoya's preparation. No doubt Clancy's old age played a part strictly being a consultant for De La Hoya, rather than the head trainer. Arcel came out of retirement like Clancy did to handle Duran in much the same way. The difference between the two corner teams, between rounds it was Arcel who gave Duran most of the advice rather than Brown, while it was Alcazar who got De La Hoya's ear more often than Clancy. Many people in camp were split on exactly what strategy De La Hoya should have used against Trinidad. Some said be aggressive, while others opted for the cuter approach he eventually employed.

[Duodenum]

Clancy may be my favorite expert commentator as well as a favorite trainer. Emile was built on his brain. I still hold a bit of a grudge against him for the advice he gave De La Hoya that prompted the Trinidad loss. And I am not positive that he was the best psychologist for post-Zaire Foreman. Foreman needed that as much as a sensible training regiment... he had to be rebuilt from the inside out!

As it was, it took Jesus and a 10 year lay-off didn't it...

The Ali foil (and for that matter, the Jones and Holyfield foil as well) was Eddie Futch. Futch was in my opinion the single best strategist ever and I go back and forth with him and Arcel as to who is the best corner man of all time.

Eddie Futch.I have to admit, I liked the distinctive sound of Clancy's voice on those CBS broadcasts, and thought he and Tim Ryan made an enjoyable team. Have you read Corner Men: Great Boxing Trainers, by Ronald K. Fried? For me, that clinched my opinion that Eddie Futch was the sport's foremost strategist. (Larry Holmes has also stated that while Arcel was a superb cut man and corner man, Futch really knew his business.) This shouldn't be tremendously surprising. Although Arcel started much earlier in boxing than Futch, Ray was completely out of the sport for around 20 years, resulting in Futch surpassing him as the most experienced trainer in boxing history.

In Arcel's 1972 comeback with Peppermint Frazer, he brilliantly engineered Frazer's dethroning of Nicolino Locche. However, Ray was never able to produce a challenger to dethrone Joe Louis, going 0-15 against the Brown Bomber before Joe's comeback against Ezzard Charles. On the other hand, Futch is well known as Ali's nemesis (even more so, since Ali sometimes didn't listen to Dundee's advice), and Eddie was the architect of Mike Spinks's brilliant LH career. Nobody was able to beat Larry Holmes with Futch and Arcel in his corner, or even put Larry on the deck (Ritchie Giachetti was still his trainer for Shavers and Snipes). Larry has stated that his physical peak was achieved while working with Futch and Arcel, a key factor in my rating of peak Holmes in the all-time HW top three (along with peak Dempsey and peak Ali).

I think Clancy and Griffith really put each other in the IBHOF. For all the rounds Griffith fought, he didn't appear to sustain any noticable brain damage from boxing. (That came as a result of being mugged and beaten up, long after he retired.) Perhaps it made a difference that Clancy has a Masters in Phys Ed. (A remarkable level of education for a fight trainer.)

Although Foreman shortened up his punches under Clancy's tutelage, he did disregard the recommendation to acclimate to conditions in Puerto Rico. The idea of Futch strategizing for George against Ali is an intriguing thought (and one Muhammad might be very relieved to have never had materialize).

[Robbi]

I have to admit, I liked the distinctive sound of Clancy's voice on those CBS broadcasts, and thought he and Tim Ryan made an enjoyable team. Have you read Corner Men: Great Boxing Trainers, by Ronald K. Fried? For me, that clinched my opinion that Eddie Futch was the sport's foremost strategist. (Larry Holmes has also stated that while Arcel was a superb cut man and corner man, Futch really knew his business.) This shouldn't be tremendously surprising. Although Arcel started much earlier in boxing than Futch, Ray was completely out of the sport for around 20 years, resulting in Futch surpassing him as the most experienced trainer in boxing history.

In Arcel's 1972 comeback with Peppermint Frazer, he brilliantly engineered Frazer's dethroning of Nicolino Locche. However, Ray was never able to produce a challenger to dethrone Joe Louis, going 0-15 against the Brown Bomber before Joe's comeback against Ezzard Charles. On the other hand, Futch is well known as Ali's nemesis (even more so, since Ali sometimes didn't listen to Dundee's advice), and Eddie was the architect of Mike Spinks's brilliant LH career. Nobody was able to beat Larry Holmes with Futch and Arcel in his corner, or even put Larry on the deck (Ritchie Giachetti was still his trainer for Shavers and Snipes). Larry has stated that his physical peak was achieved while working with Futch and Arcel, a key factor in my rating of peak Holmes in the all-time HW top three (along with peak Dempsey and peak Ali).

I think Clancy and Griffith really put each other in the IBHOF. For all the rounds Griffith fought, he didn't appear to sustain any noticable brain damage from boxing. (That came as a result of being mugged and beaten up, long after he retired.) Perhaps it made a difference that Clancy has a Masters in Phys Ed. (A remarkable level of education for a fight trainer.)

Although Foreman shortened up his punches under Clancy's tutelage, he did disregard the recommendation to acclimate to conditions in Puerto Rico. The idea of Futch strategizing for George against Ali is an intriguing thought (and one Muhammad might be very relieved to have never had materialize).

Holmes was floored under the guidance of Futch and Arcel. Giachetti left Holmes just prior to his fight with Berbick during early 1981. It was a money dispute which forced Holmes and himself to part ways. Giachetti wanted a higher percentage than Holmes was offering him. Futch and Arcel were then drafted in to work the corner for the Berbick fight on short notice, which if memory serves me correctly was possibly no more than a week. Holmes sure did have those two cagey veterans as apart of his team for the Berbick fight, right up until Holmes fought Williams. And we know why Futch left and Giachetti was once again trainer before Holmes shared a ring with M Spinks.

The fights following Holmes 15 round decision over Berbick during 1981, L Spinks, then Snipes.

[Duodenum]

Holmes was floored under the guidance of Futch and Arcel. Giachetti left Holmes just prior to his fight with Berbick during early 1981. It was a money dispute which forced Holmes and himself to part ways. Giachetti wanted a higher percentage than Holmes was offering him. Futch and Arcel were then drafted in to work the corner for the Berbick fight on short notice, which if memory serves me correctly was possibly no more than a week. Holmes sure did have those two cagey veterans as apart of his team for the Berbick fight, right up until Holmes fought Williams. And we know why Futch left and Giachetti was once again trainer before Holmes shared a ring with M Spinks.

The fights following Holmes 15 round decision over Berbick during 1981, L Spinks, then Snipes.Shows you how much I'm relying on distant faulty memory. I recalled Futch and Arcel as joining Holmes for the Cooney match. (It also reveals how long it's been since I was turned off by the changes made to boxing over the last 20 years, specifically the elimination of the 15 round distance which confines me to the Classic Forum. SRL's dethroning of Hagler over 12 rounds, instead of the true championship distance, instantly erased any enthusiasm I once had for the sport. Now, I just reminisce about worthier days gone by, and fading recollections. I feel like a fan of intercollegiate boxing might.)

[KTFO]

Foreman KTFO8 Ali
















Big Time :dead

[Stonehands89]

I have to admit, I liked the distinctive sound of Clancy's voice on those CBS broadcasts, and thought he and Tim Ryan made an enjoyable team. Have you read Corner Men: Great Boxing Trainers, by Ronald K. Fried? For me, that clinched my opinion that Eddie Futch was the sport's foremost strategist. (Larry Holmes has also stated that while Arcel was a superb cut man and corner man, Futch really knew his business.) This shouldn't be tremendously surprising. Although Arcel started much earlier in boxing than Futch, Ray was completely out of the sport for around 20 years, resulting in Futch surpassing him as the most experienced trainer in boxing history.

In Arcel's 1972 comeback with Peppermint Frazer, he brilliantly engineered Frazer's dethroning of Nicolino Locche. However, Ray was never able to produce a challenger to dethrone Joe Louis, going 0-15 against the Brown Bomber before Joe's comeback against Ezzard Charles. On the other hand, Futch is well known as Ali's nemesis (even more so, since Ali sometimes didn't listen to Dundee's advice), and Eddie was the architect of Mike Spinks's brilliant LH career. Nobody was able to beat Larry Holmes with Futch and Arcel in his corner, or even put Larry on the deck (Ritchie Giachetti was still his trainer for Shavers and Snipes). Larry has stated that his physical peak was achieved while working with Futch and Arcel, a key factor in my rating of peak Holmes in the all-time HW top three (along with peak Dempsey and peak Ali).

I think Clancy and Griffith really put each other in the IBHOF. For all the rounds Griffith fought, he didn't appear to sustain any noticable brain damage from boxing. (That came as a result of being mugged and beaten up, long after he retired.) Perhaps it made a difference that Clancy has a Masters in Phys Ed. (A remarkable level of education for a fight trainer.)

Although Foreman shortened up his punches under Clancy's tutelage, he did disregard the recommendation to acclimate to conditions in Puerto Rico. The idea of Futch strategizing for George against Ali is an intriguing thought (and one Muhammad might be very relieved to have never had materialize).

"Corner Men" and "In the Corner" are two must-haves. Especially the latter. I loved the treatment of Blackburn in it.

Do you remember what they called Arcel during the "bum of the month" days? The Meat Wagon. I found that hilarious and can picture poor Ray dragging Louis's latest victim across the mat with that eternal Q-Tip hanging of his lip. Arcel's record against Joe suggests more a problem of raw materials than expertise... Mickey Duff played Micky the Dunce against Hagler after all, but look at what he was up against!

As for Foreman, he stuck with Archie Moore during the early part of his comeback and I always thought that it was not the greatest match. Incidentally, I never thought highly of that crab defensive style. I don't think it worked well for Foreman, Norton, or even Moore himself. It inhibited the ability to counter quickly and was full of gaping holes.

[Duodenum]

"Corner Men" and "In the Corner" are two must-haves. Especially the latter. I loved the treatment of Blackburn in it.

Do you remember what they called Arcel during the "bum of the month" days? The Meat Wagon. I found that hilarious and can picture poor Ray dragging Louis's latest victim across the mat with that eternal Q-Tip hanging of his lip. Arcel's record against Joe suggests more a problem of raw materials than expertise... Mickey Duff played Micky the Dunce against Hagler after all, but look at what he was up against!

As for Foreman, he stuck with Archie Moore during the early part of his comeback and I always thought that it was not the greatest match. Incidentally, I never thought highly of that crab defensive style. I don't think it worked well for Foreman, Norton, or even Moore himself. It inhibited the ability to counter quickly and was full of gaping holes."In the Corner" by Dave Anderson has been on my acquision list. Coming from you Stonehands, that is indeed high praise. I never thought George had the reflexes to carry off the crab defense that Archie had. I could understand how it might be effective for a short boxer trying to defend against uppercuts, but George was too tall for that to be practical. Archie did sustain an awfully long and busy career with it though, and never displayed any issues with brain damage. (I loved it, when during a prefight staredown, Archie would give his charge's opponent the evil eye right along with his boxer. This was especially entertaining before Eddie Mustafa Muhammad's match with Snipes. Staring down one set of eyes is one thing, but two?)

Arcel always spoke highly about Louis, and how, during pre-fight instructions, Joe would see Ray and say, "What, you here again?" Great anecdotes.

[Robbi]

"Corner Men" and "In the Corner" are two must-haves. Especially the latter. I loved the treatment of Blackburn in it.

Do you remember what they called Arcel during the "bum of the month" days? The Meat Wagon. I found that hilarious and can picture poor Ray dragging Louis's latest victim across the mat with that eternal Q-Tip hanging of his lip. Arcel's record against Joe suggests more a problem of raw materials than expertise... Mickey Duff played Micky the Dunce against Hagler after all, but look at what he was up against!

As for Foreman, he stuck with Archie Moore during the early part of his comeback and I always thought that it was not the greatest match. Incidentally, I never thought highly of that crab defensive style. I don't think it worked well for Foreman, Norton, or even Moore himself. It inhibited the ability to counter quickly and was full of gaping holes.

Can you give me the full titles of both these books, along with the author. Ive just pressed edit to add, Dave Anderson was spotted above.

"McIllanvey on Boxing" comes recommended. No doubt most of the fight reviews you'll know pretty well, but the journalism is unique.

[Stonehands89]

"In the Corner" by Dave Anderson has been on my acquision list. Coming from you Stonehands, that is indeed high praise. I never thought George had the reflexes to carry off the crab defense that Archie had. I could understand how it might be effective for a short boxer trying to defend against uppercuts, but George was too tall for that to be practical. Archie did sustain an awfully long and busy career with it though, and never displayed any issues with brain damage. (I loved it, when during a prefight staredown, Archie would give his charge's opponent the evil eye right along with his boxer. This was especially entertaining before Eddie Mustafa Muhammad's match with Snipes. Staring down one set of eyes is one thing, but two?)

Arcel always spoke highly about Louis, and how, during pre-fight instructions, Joe would see Ray and say, "What, you here again?" Great anecdotes.

My apologies! I meant "especially the FORMER"... Corner Men is superior in my opinion.

As to Moore's style... it is hard to fault anything about the style of a fighter with that kind of longevity but I fail to see how that defense was anything but a liability for him. Even Durell was able to punch around it and through it. I am a believer in the selective appearance of the pugilistica dementia gene. Some fighters have it (Bowe, Norris are notable recent fighters exhibiting symptoms) and some don't (Moore, Duran). Someday, medical science will be able to identify who has it and who doesn't and we'll call the ensuing era the "Great Resurgence"!)

[Stonehands89]

Can you give me the full titles of both these books, along with the author. Ive just pressed edit to add, Dave Anderson was spotted above.

"McIllanvey on Boxing" comes recommended. No doubt most of the fight reviews you'll know pretty well, but the journalism is unique.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Duodenum]

My apologies! I meant "especially the FORMER"... Corner Men is superior in my opinion.Good! (Then I'm already over halfway there.)As to Moore's style... it is hard to fault anything about the style of a fighter with that kind of longevity but I fail to see how that defense was anything but a liability for him. Even Durell was able to punch around it and through it. I am a believer in the selective appearance of the pugilistica dementia gene. Some fighters have it (Bowe, Norris are notable recent fighters exhibiting symptoms) and some don't (Moore, Duran). Someday, medical science will be able to identify who has it and who doesn't and we'll call the ensuing era the "Great Resurgence"!)This is a view widely held about the Quarry's, that they may have been especially predisposed to developing this condition. (When Willie Pep passed away, the anti-boxing press identified his cause of death as pugilistica dementia, but by age 84, I'm inclined to give Willie a free pass. If that old, anybody could be suffering the effects of senility. However, if I was Laila Ali, I'd be monitoring my neurological health very carefully, considering her father's Parkinsonian outcome.)

It doesn't seem though, that boxers of earlier eras were particularly inclined to develop issues with brain function earlier in life, despite competing infinitely more frequently than they have in recent decades.

[Stonehands89]

It doesn't seem though, that boxers of earlier eras were particularly inclined to develop issues with brain function earlier in life, despite competing infinitely more frequently than they have in recent decades.

This may be a matter of follow-up. I think that more fighters back then were forgotten. 1930 (when some of the pioneers were getting up there in age) wasn't exactly the communication age and people then were preoccupied with more immediate concerns back then.

[Duodenum]

This may be a matter of follow-up. I think that more fighters back then were forgotten. 1930 (when some of the pioneers were getting up there in age) wasn't exactly the communication age and people then were preoccupied with more immediate concerns back then.The simple fact of increasing life expectancy and advances in diagnostic technology may also be a factor in heightened awareness of these issues. I strongly suspect though, that the far more painfully damaging impact of smaller gloves, boxers who didn't wear mouthpieces, or headgear in training, or the fact that smaller gloves made bodypunching a more viable tactic, or the absence of protective cups in earlier days, all resulted in individual punches being far more potentially damaging and painful, automatically assuring the development of hypervigilant defensive habits, which in turn helped safeguard against the risk of developing significant brain damage.

Individual hard punches don't harm human neurology as much a steady accumulation of blows. When boxers are wearing headgear in training, mouthpieces, protective cups, and spar against others who are wearing oversized and softly padded pillows on their hands for gloves, then there will be a greater tendency to evolve the habit of merely accepting a punch, instead of committing to a dedicated effort to avoid getting hit, and you're not supposed to get hit!!!! If an aspiring boxer can't progress to the point where he can defend himself adequately in sparring, without wearing any of these accoutrements, and be tough enough to forego them successfully in sparring, then he probably shouldn't be allowed to compete. Boxing is not a glorified macho pillowfight. (At least not quite yet, despite the efforts of emasulating and malignant reformers to castrate the very essence of boxing.)

[Stonehands89]

... I sense the rumblings of a rampage! I read one of these by you and was highly entertained.

I tend to agree with you. Also, fighters were more willing to back away and were allowed to clinch far more. Of course, wrestling was part and parcel of sound strategy. I would also offer that it seems that the output then was also less because there were potentially far more rounds. I don't see what others claim on this site -short, destructive combinations of the kind that more modern punchers are prone to inflict. The gloves were also relatively like mittons, so even if they did, the fight was more likely to end.

[Stonehands89]

As to the bad sparring habits -I heartily agree. When I spar, I even find it far more sensible to weave under a left hook than to block it! Why get hit at all!! All boxers should resent the idea of it...

It's almost Shakespearean... "hit but don't be hit."

[Duodenum]

... I sense the rumblings of a rampage! I read one of these by you and was highly entertained.

I tend to agree with you. Also, fighters were more willing to back away and were allowed to clinch far more. Of course, wrestling was part and parcel of sound strategy. I would also offer that it seems that the output then was also less because there were potentially far more rounds. I don't see what others claim on this site -short, destructive combinations of the kind that more modern punchers are prone to inflict. The gloves were also relatively like mittons, so even if they did, the fight was more likely to end.LOL, those rumblings are probably coming from the heavy thunderstorm raging outdoors from where I sit at this moment.

Bob Fitzsimmons reportedly shattered an opponent's wrist with one of his punches, and we all know about the damage Marciano did to one of LaStarza's biceps in a round which Rocky was deducted for a low blow. (Considering the damage Marciano inflicted, who really won the round?)

Sure, if somebody can punch hard enough, the best thing to do is avoid the blow entirely, or at least redirect it's energy away by deflecting it. Savvy hard punchers will be aiming deliberately for those arms (like Sam Solomon had Leon Spinks do, whenever Ali tried the rope-a-dope in Neon's historic upset). When they're not aiming for the arms, they'll seek to connect solidly on other bodypart they can get away with. (An illegal but hard kidney shot or rabbit punch can decide an outcome.)

Jack Johnson's brand of defensive wizardry was largely based on reaching out to intercept a punch before it could gather any momentum. Nat Fleischer described Lil Artha' as being inclined to loaf, but I suspect that his manner of initiatory defensive tactics discouraged many of his opponents into a submissive offensive shell.

Ali's lean was harshly criticized, but like weaving under a hook, it was actually highly effective for making an opponent miss entirely, a far more draining experience than a direct hit on the arms, or some other nonscoring bodypart. (You know very well that a redirected punch can be every bit as tiring and demoralizing to an assailant as a complete miss.)

[surreal deal]

If George paces himself, he might last the distance. I would pick Ali by decision.
if it goes the distance,and is competitive(unlike spinks,say,though one judge still gave it to Ali!)Ali gets the decision.he got the benefit plenty of times,he was the sacred cow of boxing.
Ali didnt fancy this rematch at all.dont blame him.