How would Chavalo's career have played out if there were 20-25 rounds fight- 60/70's

[Mendoza]

Chavalo was a fighter long on stamina, toughness and durability. If the 1960’s and 1970 were sanctioning 20 or 25 round title fights, would Chavalo have done better than he did in the 15 round era?

[Sonny's jab]

Well, he got stopped in 4 rounds by Frazier, and in 3 against Foreman.

[Mendoza]

Well, he got stopped in 4 rounds by Frazier, and in 3 against Foreman.

This is true. However in the era of 20-25 rounds fights, it was rare to see an early mercy stoppage. I saw Chavlao vs Foreman. Foreman had him in trouble for sure, but there is a small chance that Foreman might have punched himself out if they let the match go on a bit.

I think Frazier stopped Chavalo on cuts, with Chavlao being in good working order besides the cuts, though the match is not fresh in my mind.

Chavalo lost on points to the likes of King in 8, Baker in 10 ( I hear Chavlo was robbed in this fight ) , McMurty in 10, Radmacher in 10, Cleurox in 12, Folley in 10, Patterson in 12, Terell in 15, Corletti in 10, Ali in 15, Bonevenna in 10, Mathis in 12, Ellis in 10, and Ali again in 12.

If Chavalo had 20-25 rounds to operate in the fights he lost via points, how many times could he have turned the tide and won late through attrition?

[Sonny's jab]

This is true. However in the era of 20-25 rounds fights, it was rare to see an early mercy stoppage. I saw Chavlao vs Foreman. Foreman had him in trouble for sure, but there is a small chance that Foreman might have punched himself out if they let the match go on a bit.


Sure, if you're changing the refereeing standards as well as the distance. But I thought you meant simply a change of distance.

I discussed the difference in refereeing and corner stoppage standards in the Witherspoon V. Dempsey thread recently, pointing out how it renders KO% are usless statistic to compare across eras. Dont know if anyone read that.


I think Frazier stopped Chavalo on cuts, with Chavlao being in good working order besides the cuts, though the match is not fresh in my mind.


No, Frazier beat him so bad, Chuvalo turned away holding his eye, I think his eye socket was broken. One of Frazier's best performances, maybe you should watch it again, you might yet rate Frazier higher.
Looked like Chuvalo was about to quit, in fact he was quitting out of sheer survival insinct, his eye was about to fall out or explode or so I imagine that's how it felt at least. He couldn't have gone 25 rounds like that, not even in the Roman Colosseum.


Chavalo lost on points to the likes of King in 8, Baker in 10 ( I hear Chavlo was robbed in this fight ) , McMurty in 10, Radmacher in 10, Cleurox in 12, Folley in 10, Patterson in 12, Terell in 15, Corletti in 10, Ali in 15, Bonevenna in 10, Mathis in 12, Ellis in 10, and Ali again in 12.

If Chavalo had 20-25 rounds to operate in the fights he lost via points, how many times could he have turned the tide and won late through attrition?

A few times I guess. But some of those other fighters were probably well-equipped or clever enough to find a winning strategy over 20-25 rounds too.

[Mendoza]

It was Frazier birthday recently and ESPN classic aired a few of his matches. I'll check my DVR. Perhaps the Frazier vs Chavalo match is on there.

Some say Chavalo had an all time chin. I agree it was very good, but if Foreman and Frazier hurt him so quickly, could it have been that good?

[The Kurgan]

It was Frazier birthday recently and ESPN classic aired a few of his matches. I'll check my DVR. Perhaps the Frazier vs Chavalo match is on there.

Some say Chavalo had an all time chin. I agree it was very good, but if Foreman and Frazier hurt him so quickly, could it have been that good?

Frazier hurt him because of the eye. Surely you're not suggesting that an eye injury is a sign of a questionable chin?

Against Foreman, I don't think Chuvalo was so much hurt as defensively too primitive to dodge Foreman's bombs. Foreman landed a big left hook that physically moved Chuvalo (it's one of the hardest punches I've ever seen land) and Chuvalo, aside from moving from the physical impact of the punch, wasn't staggered or wobbly at all.

The problem was, however, that Foreman had overcome his early nerves and figured out how easily he could land. He then unloaded a tremendous barrage of punches, the likes of which would have Frazier falling about like a mad donkey. No wonder so many people gave Frazier such a good chance against Foreman: Frazier was seen to have almost as good a chin as Chuvalo and to be far better defensively, so it would take a very canny observer that Foreman would land often enough and hard enough to beat Frazier.

Chins are tested by hard punches from hard punchers, in my opinion, and aside from Oliver McCall I've never seen anyone take hard punches without being stunned as well as Chuvalo. If you look at Chuvalo's losses to Frazier and Foreman, they are as insignificant in chin terms as a stoppage loss can possibly be. As for the Chuvalo vs. McCall chin debate, I tend to believe that McCall's was slightly more tested, but Chuvalo showed more mental fortitude over the course of his career.

As for the original question, Rocky Marciano said of Chuvalo in the 1960s something to the effect that "If all fights were 100 rounds Chuvalo would be undefeated". That's not technically accurate, as Frazier and Foreman showed, but Chuvalo's combination of terrific stamina, strength and durability would make him a fearsome prospect for anyone over 20-25 rounds. For instance, I'd take someone like Tony Tucker to outbox Chuvalo over 12-15 rounds, but someone of Tucker's size and build would be very unlikely to be able to put up a winning pace over an hour or more.

I think Chuvalo's loss column would be a lot more sparse and his win column larger, but there were still boxers in the 1960s and 1970s I'd pick to beat him. Frazier and Foreman would always stop him eventually, unless he could be taught to have a better defense. Ali I think would still win on points, but I think the scorecards would be much closer as even Ali would have to take rests later on in the fight. Ernie Terrell's stamina and excellent pacing would allow him to make it (probably), but I wouldn't rule Chuvalo out.

As for Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Buster Mathis and Chuvalo's other conquerors, I suspect that most of them wouldn't be able to hack it. 15 rounds is murder; 20-25 rounds is like a killing spree. Bonavena showed that stamina was a vulnerability of his (I think that was his undoing against Ali and Frazier) while Mathis and Ellis just didn't have the constitution for that distance in my book.

I think Chuvalo would be talked about as an almost unbeatable fighter except by the top cream of heavyweights. To beat Chuvalo in the real world, you need to be able to either outbox him or to have the finishing ability to stop him. Making fights 20-25 rounds makes the former strategy almost impossible; only the fitness freaks and/or ultra-crafty boxers could manage it.

[Russell]

Someone actually pegged Chuvalo as being nearly unbeatable if fights in his era operated as they did a hundred years before. That he was a throwback to the classic "iron men".

Also, Frazier hit Chuvalo so fucking hard he smashed bones in his face to pieces, and Chuvalo now has a steel plate in his cheek to keep his eye in his head.

He still didn't go down.

[Sonny's jab]

It was Frazier birthday recently and ESPN classic aired a few of his matches. I'll check my DVR. Perhaps the Frazier vs Chavalo match is on there.

Some say Chavalo had an all time chin. I agree it was very good, but if Foreman and Frazier hurt him so quickly, could it have been that good?

Well, that's hard to say.

Frazier overwhelmed him with body shots and constant pressure, better jab, better hook, he was just superior at Chuvalo's own game. If not for the injury - and I've heard that the injury was actually a re-injury of something done in training, (true or not I dont know) - I think Chuvalo would have been saved out of mercy by the referee, or taken a very bad beating for the duration, he took a bad enough beating in 4 rounds. But I dont know if he was "rocked" as such by any punch to the chin. This is where my memory of the fight might be insufficient.

Foreman rocked Chuvalo, but again it was Chuvalo's failure to respond to a man overwhelming him by throwing punches, rather than purely the effect of the punches. Chuvalo was "pinned" by Foreman's attack, as with Frazier's. He may have actually been regaining his composure in the final moments against Foreman, recovering from the initial offending punch. But he was doing nothing to stop Foreman unloading bombs on his head. I mean, it's unclear whether he was groggy, or just outclassed in the only area of boxing he knew. Chuvalo was a rough, physical type. Foreman and Frazier were too, and more so ....

The guy fought 90-something fights at heavyweight, against some good, big, strong fighters. He fought until he was 40-ish. He was never knocked down. I've never seen his legs go particularly wobbly, even against Foreman, he seemed to catch a punch flush that lifted him way back and made him back off and retreat, he wasn't necessarily on "queer street". I haven't seen many Chuvalo fights, but I reckon he deserves his reputation for possessing a truly great chin.

[Mendoza]

Frazier hurt him because of the eye. Surely you're not suggesting that an eye injury is a sign of a questionable chin?

Against Foreman, I don't think Chuvalo was so much hurt as defensively too primitive to dodge Foreman's bombs. Foreman landed a big left hook that physically moved Chuvalo (it's one of the hardest punches I've ever seen land) and Chuvalo, aside from moving from the physical impact of the punch, wasn't staggered or wobbly at all.

The problem was, however, that Foreman had overcome his early nerves and figured out how easily he could land. He then unloaded a tremendous barrage of punches, the likes of which would have Frazier falling about like a mad donkey. No wonder so many people gave Frazier such a good chance against Foreman: Frazier was seen to have almost as good a chin as Chuvalo and to be far better defensively, so it would take a very canny observer that Foreman would land often enough and hard enough to beat Frazier.

Chins are tested by hard punches from hard punchers, in my opinion, and aside from Oliver McCall I've never seen anyone take hard punches without being stunned as well as Chuvalo. If you look at Chuvalo's losses to Frazier and Foreman, they are as insignificant in chin terms as a stoppage loss can possibly be. As for the Chuvalo vs. McCall chin debate, I tend to believe that McCall's was slightly more tested, but Chuvalo showed more mental fortitude over the course of his career.

As for the original question, Rocky Marciano said of Chuvalo in the 1960s something to the effect that "If all fights were 100 rounds Chuvalo would be undefeated". That's not technically accurate, as Frazier and Foreman showed, but Chuvalo's combination of terrific stamina, strength and durability would make him a fearsome prospect for anyone over 20-25 rounds. For instance, I'd take someone like Tony Tucker to outbox Chuvalo over 12-15 rounds, but someone of Tucker's size and build would be very unlikely to be able to put up a winning pace over an hour or more.

I think Chuvalo's loss column would be a lot more sparse and his win column larger, but there were still boxers in the 1960s and 1970s I'd pick to beat him. Frazier and Foreman would always stop him eventually, unless he could be taught to have a better defense. Ali I think would still win on points, but I think the scorecards would be much closer as even Ali would have to take rests later on in the fight. Ernie Terrell's stamina and excellent pacing would allow him to make it (probably), but I wouldn't rule Chuvalo out.

As for Jimmy Ellis, Oscar Bonavena, Buster Mathis and Chuvalo's other conquerors, I suspect that most of them wouldn't be able to hack it. 15 rounds is murder; 20-25 rounds is like a killing spree. Bonavena showed that stamina was a vulnerability of his (I think that was his undoing against Ali and Frazier) while Mathis and Ellis just didn't have the constitution for that distance in my book.

I think Chuvalo would be talked about as an almost unbeatable fighter except by the top cream of heavyweights. To beat Chuvalo in the real world, you need to be able to either outbox him or to have the finishing ability to stop him. Making fights 20-25 rounds makes the former strategy almost impossible; only the fitness freaks and/or ultra-crafty boxers could manage it.

I did not see the Chavalo vs Frazier fight. I wasn't trying to discredit Chavalo's durability if he was hit in the eye. I agree with you when you say chins are best tested by hard punchers. In Chavalo's case he was stopped twice in short fights by perhaps the two best punchers he meet. Somone said Chavlao was close to quitting vs Frazier. Things like this make me wonder how why people refer to him as having the best all time chin.

Regarding McCall, I recomend you watch McCall vs Seldon and Douglas. Bruce Seldon rocked McCall a few times, and had him hurt. I think it was round 9. Watch it sometime, and you'll see McCall was not superman. Douglas might have scored aTKO if he upped his pressure and out put, and also had McCall in duress.

I do agree though, that if Chavlao had 20-25 rounds to work in, his record would be a bit better than reads.

[bigjake]

Someone actually pegged Chuvalo as being nearly unbeatable if fights in his era operated as they did a hundred years before. That he was a throwback to the classic "iron men".

Also, Frazier hit Chuvalo so fucking hard he smashed bones in his face to pieces, and Chuvalo now has a steel plate in his cheek to keep his eye in his head.

He still didn't go down.

to be honest,chuvalo suffered that injury in sparing for the frazier fight.he knew if joe landed hard on the cheek he'd be in trouble but took the fight anyway.the fracture was caused in training,his eyeball was out of its socket againt frazier thats why he turned away,chuvalo has the best chin i think of any heavy so far.how many fighters could take those shots from foreman with out going down?oliver mccall maybe but we'll never know know for sure, we do know chuvalo did take them

[jowcol]

I've always liked George, a gentleman and a credit to the sport, tough and hard nosed.
But he was getting completely ripped to pieces by Joe, he cut often, and this was a very dangerous injury; he would have either turned away and quit or lost an eye OR.....gone down if allowed to continue.
Foreman hurt him baaaad; if allowed to continue, he probably would have eventually tasted canvas there as well...

Lastly, why don't we post another thread that questions who the greatest heavy of all time would be if they all had to fight in an elevator????? :roll:

Who's to say Chuvalo would not be punched out and tiring by, say, the 18th or 19th round? I know a lot of fighters that were always in as good a shape, if not better, than Chuvalo ever was going in to a bout.

Pure speculation; IMHO a large number of Heavys throughout history would have their way with George post-15th round...

my $0.02

[OLD FOGEY]

to be honest,chuvalo suffered that injury in sparing for the frazier fight.he knew if joe landed hard on the cheek he'd be in trouble but took the fight anyway.the fracture was caused in training,his eyeball was out of its socket againt frazier thats why he turned away,chuvalo has the best chin i think of any heavy so far.how many fighters could take those shots from foreman with out going down?oliver mccall maybe but we'll never know know for sure, we do know chuvalo did take them

I have read that he suffered a fractured orbital bone against Frazier. I do not believe he would have or could have, or his management or the ring physician would have considered letting him, fight if this condition were pre-existing. Also, it would have been quite noticeable, with heavy swelling.

[The Kurgan]

I did not see the Chavalo vs Frazier fight. I wasn't trying to discredit Chavalo's durability if he was hit in the eye. I agree with you when you say chins are best tested by hard punchers. In Chavalo's case he was stopped twice in short fights by perhaps the two best punchers he meet.

That's simply ignoring the facts, which are presented clearly in this thread. While I know you have a latent agenda on this matter, it's more or less clearly revealed by this willful ignorance.

Somone said Chavlao was close to quitting vs Frazier. Things like this make me wonder how why people refer to him as having the best all time chin.

Why?

Regarding McCall, I recomend you watch McCall vs Seldon and Douglas. Bruce Seldon rocked McCall a few times, and had him hurt. I think it was round 9. Watch it sometime, and you'll see McCall was not superman. Douglas might have scored aTKO if he upped his pressure and out put, and also had McCall in duress.

I didn't say McCall was superman. Regarding Seldon and McCall, I think Seldon's success is somewhat exaggerated, and any consideration of this has to take into account that (a) Seldon was a good puncher when he threw his punches properly, and (b) McCall did not only not go down, but he did not stagger. Furthermore, any negative effects on the rating of McCall are vindicated by his proven durability against some of the hardest hitters of all time.

No boxer can consistently face world class opposition and not be in trouble, but boxers with great chins will be able to take numerous amazingly hard blows without being knocked down or out. No boxer on film can match McCall or Chuvalo in this regard.

[The Kurgan]

I wasn't trying to discredit Chavalo's durability if he was hit in the eye.

In Chavalo's case he was stopped twice in short fights by perhaps the two best punchers he meet.

:think

[Marciano Frazier]

:think Indeed.

[mcvey]

Chavalo was a fighter long on stamina, toughness and durability. If the 1960’s and 1970 were sanctioning 20 or 25 round title fights, would Chavalo have done better than he did in the 15 round era?
I think he would have had a lot more stoppages on his resume,unfortuanately they would be losses rather than wins,his toughness and facial tissue held up well over 15 ,add another 10 rounds ,Isee him being lead back to his corner ,half blind and with contusions that would be the envy of the Elephant Man. No matter how durable you are ,if you are getting hit three to one ,you are going to break down before your opponent,imo.Chuvalo may have been the most durable of the Heavyweights ,but every one has their limits.

[Mendoza]

The Kurgan That's simply ignoring the facts, which are presented clearly in this thread. While I know you have a latent agenda on this matter, it's more or less clearly revealed by this willful ignorance.

Eh? This is my thread, and it was a pro Chavalo what if type of thread. If you state chins are best tested when they are hit by hard punchers ( a fact I agree with ) then Chavalo falied his test in short fights vs the two best punchers he meet. Which other punchers tested Chavalo in this regard?



I didn't say McCall was superman. Regarding Seldon and McCall, I think Seldon's success is somewhat exaggerated, and any consideration of this has to take into account that (a) Seldon was a good puncher when he threw his punches properly, and (b) McCall did not only not go down, but he did not stagger. Furthermore, any negative effects on the rating of McCall are vindicated by his proven durability against some of the hardest hitters of all time.

McCall did not go down but he was covering up and hurt by Seldon. I think he staggered and was stunned. Watch it again. When Seldon lost, he was pounding the mat because he, and everyone in the audience McCall felt like McCall was in real trouble. Getting back to your comment that chins are best tested when they are hit by hard punchers, McCall began to quit when Lewis started landing hard stuff. And like I said Douglas had him in a bad way late in a fight, and coul dhave scored a TKO if he pressed it a bit more.


No boxer can consistently face world class opposition and not be in trouble, but boxers with great chins will be able to take numerous amazingly hard blows without being knocked down or out. No boxer on film can match McCall or Chuvalo in this regard.

Well, if you say no boxer can match Chavalo or McCall in this regard, I'll have to yield to your authority on this one, even though when you say it you know your wrong.:think

[Sonny's jab]

I think a fighter has to be a bit of a second-rater to contest the title of "best chin of all-time".
Chuvalo and McCall seem to be the leading candidates.

Getting hit on the chin should not be the aim of the game.

[The Kurgan]

Eh? This is my thread, and it was a pro Chavalo what if type of thread. If you state chins are best tested when they are hit by hard punchers ( a fact I agree with ) then Chavalo falied his test in short fights vs the two best punchers he meet. Which other punchers tested Chavalo in this regard?

Let's lay this out clearly-

1. (a) Chins are tested by hard punches.

(b) If a boxer is hit by hard punches and is not shook up mentally, then they have shown they have a hard chin.

2. Chuvalo was hit by hard punches against Frazier and Foreman, and was not shook up. In both occasions, the stoppage was due to factors other than his being hurt in a cognitive sense; in the case of Frazier, it was due to a cut; in the case of Foreman, it was because Foreman was able to land too often for the fight to be continued.

3. Therefore, we can conclude that Chuvalo passed the test on both occasions, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT HE WAS STOPPED.

Being stopped is not a sign of a bad chin, unless it is due to the boxer's possession of a bad chin. McCall was stopped against Lewis, but it was not because he was staggering around or being bounced off of the canvas. Chris Eubank was stopped due to swelling against Carl Thompson, but he passed the test of the Cat's punches perfectly well. Vitali Klitschko was stopped by Chris Byrd and Lennox Lewis, but on neither occasion was it because of his chin.

If we are talking about sheer DURABILITY rather than CHIN, then that of course is another matter. A boxer's chin contributes to their durability, but it is not the only factor; a boxer can have a suspect chin but have the defensive ability to not be stopped. The sensible way to assess a chin is to look at the occasions where the boxer was hit hardest, determine how hard they were being punched, and then make a determination based on their reaction.

McCall did not go down but he was covering up and hurt by Seldon. I think he staggered and was stunned. Watch it again. When Seldon lost, he was pounding the mat because he, and everyone in the audience McCall felt like McCall was in real trouble. Getting back to your comment that chins are best tested when they are hit by hard punchers, McCall began to quit when Lewis started landing hard stuff.

He was stopped by the punches, but he was hardly "staggered". If a boxer is having trouble staying in position, then he is staggered. Looking at the fight, there was absolutely no chance of Seldon knocking McCall down. As for McCall-Lewis, that was clearly a culmination of (a) McCall's poor mental state, and (b) the dominance Lewis was showing. Note that McCall began to break down mentally when Lewis landed hard shots, but Lewis CONTINUED to land hard shots and yet McCall took them with utter non-chalance. No-one else has ever shown a chin capable of taking Lewis's punches like that.

And like I said Douglas had him in a bad way late in a fight, and coul dhave scored a TKO if he pressed it a bit more.

Any TKO would have been based on the fact that Douglas was landing with frequency, but this was as much a result of McCall being too tired to defend himself. Being tired should not be confused with being hurt; Vitali Klitschko was exhausted and almost falling over against Lewis in the 6th round of their fight, but I don't think his diminished state was primarily a consequence of Lewis's punches.

Well, if you say no boxer can match Chavalo or McCall in this regard, I'll have to yield to your authority on this one, even though when you say it you know your wrong.:think

"You know your wrong?" Isn't that a somewhat immature argument? The facts are clear: McCall and Chuvalo were hit by some of the hardest punches in history, in sequence, and were not knocked down.

The closest any boxer has come to that feat would be Randall Cobb, who took Earnie Shavers's punches in what was effectively a rope-a-dope without ropes (or defence); however, given Shavers's age and the fact that he tired early (taking hard punches from a tired heavy-hitter is not as impressive as taking them from a fresher heavy-hitter) I think this can only put Cobb in the top 5, not the top 2. Chuvalo and McCall also have more comprehensive chin resumes across their career, a factor that is also important because there are boxers with questionable chins which have looked good in a few specific fights, but which failed them over the course of their career.

If you want to "yield" to my authority, fine, but I'd far rather you continued to argue your case and did not resort to childish arguments such as accusing someone of not believing what they say as a means of escaping debate.

[The Kurgan]

Getting hit on the chin should not be the aim of the game.

:lol:

I've even heard there are judges with penalise boxers for being hit on the chin, and some even favour boxers who hit their opponents often when they do their scoring.

[mcvey]

:lol: :lol: :lol: You Scotties can be so nasty!

[yancey]

If anybody thinks Chuvalo would have remained on his feet the full distance against Frazier and Foreman absent the cuts/eye damage, cornerman throwing in the towel, ref stopping the fight, etc, they are way off, imo.

He would have gone down.

I also find the notion that Chuvalo substained his face damage prior to the Frazier fight hard to believe.

[Sonny's jab]

I also find the notion that Chuvalo substained his face damage prior to the Frazier fight hard to believe.

Yeah, I dont know about that either.

bigjake knows about it. He has mentioned it before, and I think he knows (or has met) Chuvalo.

[Mendoza]

The Kurgan Let's lay this out clearly-

1. (a) Chins are tested by hard punches.

(b) If a boxer is hit by hard punches and is not shook up mentally, then they have shown they have a hard chin.

2. Chuvalo was hit by hard punches against Frazier and Foreman, and was not shook up. In both occasions, the stoppage was due to factors other than his being hurt in a cognitive sense; in the case of Frazier, it was due to a cut; in the case of Foreman, it was because Foreman was able to land too often for the fight to be continued.

3. Therefore, we can conclude that Chuvalo passed the test on both occasions, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT HE WAS STOPPED.

Ah, but according to those who saw the Frazier fight, Chavalo would have been stopped. I saw the Foreman match, Chavalo was caught on the ropes and in trouble. I disagree if you think Foreman did not shake Chavalo up. So if these were the two best punchers Chavalo fought, and both had him in a bad way early in the fight, how does that equate to all time durability? Please explain.


Being stopped is not a sign of a bad chin, unless it is due to the boxer's possession of a bad chin. McCall was stopped against Lewis, but it was not because he was staggering around or being bounced off of the canvas. Chris Eubank was stopped due to swelling against Carl Thompson, but he passed the test of the Cat's punches perfectly well. Vitali Klitschko was stopped by Chris Byrd and Lennox Lewis, but on neither occasion was it because of his chin.

Lewis was getting to McCall, so McCall quit rather than take more punches. That is one observation of McCall quitting. The other was he was mentally unstable, and when things got tough for him, he flipped out. Another theory is the fix was in. In Vitali's case he was stopped by an injury, and a cut, but was not as close to going down as Chavalo was, and in my opinion was not rocked or stunned by good but not great punchers in Seldon and Douglas as McCall was. In addition, when Vitlai was hit hard by punchers like Hide, Sanders, and Leiws, he came back to win the next round, whereas Chavalo was teetering on the edge of going down. See the difference?


Any TKO would have been based on the fact that Douglas was landing with frequency, but this was as much a result of McCall being too tired to defend himself. Being tired should not be confused with being hurt; Vitali Klitschko was exhausted and almost falling over against Lewis in the 6th round of their fight, but I don't think his diminished state was primarily a consequence of Lewis's punches.

Vitlai had plenty of energy left and showed it to the world as soon as he learned the fight was being stopped on cuts. Lewis looked the more tired of the two throught the fight and at the end of round six where he nearly fell off his own stool from crashing down.


"You know your wrong?" Isn't that a somewhat immature argument? The facts are clear: McCall and Chuvalo were hit by some of the hardest punches in history, in sequence, and were not knocked down.

You are the one who attempted to make a mockery of this thread first with your smiley threads, and sudden acquisition of an agenda. Just rewind back up a few posts, and we can all see that. I simply gave you a quick taste of your own medicine. Now you’re crying foul? The intent of this thread was “ what if “ Chavalo had 20-25 rounds in the decisions he lost.


The closest any boxer has come to that feat would be Randall Cobb, who took Earnie Shavers's punches in what was effectively a rope-a-dope without ropes (or defence); however, given Shavers's age and the fact that he tired early (taking hard punches from a tired heavy-hitter is not as impressive as taking them from a fresher heavy-hitter) I think this can only put Cobb in the top 5, not the top 2. Chuvalo and McCall also have more comprehensive chin resumes across their career, a factor that is also important because there are boxers with questionable chins which have looked good in a few specific fights, but which failed them over the course of their career.

But does Cobb really fit your criteria? Shavers did not land much on him, and like you said he was past his best and tired. Which other big punchers did Cobb face? Dougals, Dokes, and Norton hit hard. That’s a plus, but going down vs a guy like Eddie Gregg is a minus. Judging by your previous comment, I take it you were un-aware Cobb went down as a pro.

[The Kurgan]

Ah, but according to those who saw the Frazier fight, Chavalo would have been stopped.

Whatever happened to boxers being tested by punches? We cannot test chins on the basis of what WOULD have happened if they were hit by x punches. I also think you might want to check your facts- Frazier DID stop Chuvalo.

I saw the Foreman match, Chavalo was caught on the ropes and in trouble. I disagree if you think Foreman did not shake Chavalo up.

If you look at the film, Chuvalo was moved by the left hook and was hit by a number of punches, but he was in no danger of going down and was NOT shaken up.

So if these were the two best punchers Chavalo fought, and both had him in a bad way early in the fight, how does that equate to all time durability? Please explain.

As I explained in my preceding post, being stopped does not necessarily have anything to do with one's chin. Furthermore, I specified that Chuvalo had one of the best chin's of all time; I did not say tha the was the most durable boxer of all time. Please read my posts carefully.

Lewis was getting to McCall, so McCall quit rather than take more punches. That is one observation of McCall quitting. The other was he was mentally unstable, and when things got tough for him, he flipped out. Another theory is the fix was in. In Vitali's case he was stopped by an injury, and a cut, but was not as close to going down as Chavalo was, and in my opinion was not rocked or stunned by good but not great punchers in Seldon and Douglas as McCall was.

So what you're saying is that, in spite of the fact that Vitali was stopped in all of his losses (which were against the best boxers he ever fought), he was stopped for reasons other than his chin? If so, we can logically apply the same standard to Chuvalo. Chuvalo was stopped due to an eye injury against Frazier and was not hurt against Foreman, and was in no danger of going down. One has to apply equal standards for both.

I disagree with your statement that Chuvalo was closer to going down than Vitali was against Lewis. Lewis had Vitali shaken up and staggering on multiple occasions, indeed at some points only Vitali's grabbing on to Lewis saved him from going down. Given that an old and scrappy Lewis was able to do this to him with single shots, I have no doubt that (had he fought boxers of their quality) boxers like a near-peak Douglas and a near-peak Seldon would have hurt him badly, and possibly stopped him.

In addition, when Vitlai was hit hard by punchers like Hide,

At what point in their fight did Hide connect with a clean punch?

Sanders, and Leiws,

Who hit him with single shots, but did not test him with combinations in the same way that Chuvalo's chin was tested by Foreman.

he came back to win the next round, whereas Chavalo was teetering on the edge of going down. See the difference?

Not only was Chuvalo not in danger of going down, but he was at no point driven to be clinging onto his opponent's waist with his body creating a 90 degree angle. Chuvalo's chin was more rigourously tested, by better boxers, and he was stopped less often.

Vitlai had plenty of energy left and showed it to the world as soon as he learned the fight was being stopped on cuts. Lewis looked the more tired of the two throught the fight and at the end of round six where he nearly fell off his own stool from crashing down.

Frazier looked like he had more energy than Ali after the 14th round of the Thrilla in Manilla. One can hardly judge how much energy a boxer has by how they behave when they are not boxing.

While you say that Lewis looked the more tired of the two throughout the fight (which was true, he was in poor condition) in the final round he clearly had much more energy, and it was Vitali who was almost collapsing. I would feel far more confident in assessing a boxer's energy from how he behaves over a 3 minute period than on him sitting down slightly awkwardly. The latter could simply be a mistake or a mild symptom (remember, Lewis had a beaming smile in his corner before the stoppage) while the former is an undisputable sign of exhaustion.

You are the one who attempted to make a mockery of this thread first with your smiley threads,

Actually, my smiley "thread" (post) simply pointed out an apparent inconsistency in your argument.

The intent of this thread was “ what if “ Chavalo had 20-25 rounds in the decisions he lost.

If you were worried that the thread was going off topic, you should have just said.

[Mendoza]

The Kurgan: Whatever happened to boxers being tested by punches? We cannot test chins on the basis of what WOULD have happened if they were hit by x punches. I also think you might want to check your facts- Frazier DID stop Chuvalo.

I agree. I just questioning your reasoning here. If you say Chavalo had an all time chin, then how come he was stopped early by the two best punchers he faced? Foreman stopped Chavalo from punches, and I disagree with you if you think Chavalo wasn't in a bad way. Where did Chavalo weather a storm vs a puncher and fight on?


If you look at the film, Chuvalo was moved by the left hook and was hit by a number of punches, but he was in no danger of going down and was NOT shaken up.

I did not see the Frazier match, but if your referring to the Foreman match, I remember Chavalo being defensive on the ropes and shaken up.


So what you're saying is that, in spite of the fact that Vitali was stopped in all of his losses (which were against the best boxers he ever fought), he was stopped for reasons other than his chin? If so, we can logically apply the same standard to Chuvalo. Chuvalo was stopped due to an eye injury against Frazier and was not hurt against Foreman, and was in no danger of going down. One has to apply equal standards for both.

Did Chavalo ever come back from a bomb and win? Vitali did.


I disagree with your statement that Chavalo was closer to going down than Vitali was against Lewis. Lewis had Vitali shaken up and staggering on multiple occasions, indeed at some points only Vitali's grabbing on to Lewis saved him from going down. Given that an old and scrappy Lewis was able to do this to him with single shots, I have no doubt that (had he fought boxers of their quality) boxers like a near-peak Douglas and a near-peak Seldon would have hurt him badly, and possibly stopped him.

Vitlai fought many rounds and shook off hard blows. Again, with Chavlao when he was hit hard, there were not many rounds after that. Seldon would not beat Vitlai. It’s an early TKO win for Vitlai in all likely hood. Douglas was a good, but not great puncher, and would likely lose as well. Yet both Seldon and Douglas had McCall in some trouble.


At what point in their fight did Hide connect with a clean punch?

Early in round one, and it was a chin checker for sure that got Vitali's attention.


Who hit him with single shots, but did not test him with combinations in the same way that Chuvalo's chin was tested by Foreman.

Fighters get caught with combinations when they are hurt and on the ropes like Chavalo was vs Foreman. See the difference? Vitlai even when he was hit by bombs had enough to move out of the way or clinch. Hence he wasn't at hurt, and had his wits.


Not only was Chuvalo not in danger of going down, but he was at no point driven to be clinging onto his opponent's waist with his body creating a 90 degree angle. Chuvalo's chin was more rigourously tested, by better boxers, and he was stopped less often.

Chavalo's chin was tested by which boxers besides Foreman and Frazier who stopped Chavalo early?


While you say that Lewis looked the more tired of the two throughout the fight (which was true, he was in poor condition) in the final round he clearly had much more energy, and it was Vitali who was almost collapsing. I would feel far more confident in assessing a boxer's energy from how he behaves over a 3 minute period than on him sitting down slightly awkwardly. The latter could simply be a mistake or a mild symptom (remember, Lewis had a beaming smile in his corner before the stoppage) while the former is an undisputable sign of exhaustion.

Working backwards, Lewis smiled when things were not ideal for him. I remember him smirking a moment or two before Rhaman knocked him out, and smirking when Bruno hurt him. The smile was a false bravo for Lewis. I disagree. At the end of round six, Vitlai had more left then Lewis. Lewis looked like he was going for broke, which is what older fighters do when there down on points, and have limited reserves.

[JohnThomas1]

Surely Vitali's chin isn't being seriously compared to Chuvalo's and McCall, surely.

[Mendoza]

Surely Vitali's chin isn't being seriously compared to Chuvalo's and McCall, surely.


Surely you can show me instances where either Chavalo or McCall took better punches and showed less duress on film.

[JohnThomas1]

Surely you can show me instances where either Chavalo or McCall took better punches and showed less duress on film.

Chuvalo and McCall are leagues more proven than Vitali and The Kurgan has given enough good information on them to get lost in. Both fought much better fighters than Vitali.

[Mendoza]

Chuvalo and McCall are leagues more proven than Vitali and The Kurgan has given enough good information on them to get lost in. Both fought much better fighters than Vitali.

If you read Kurgan's analysis, chins are best tested when they are hit by punchers. I agree. The simple truth is McCall and Chavalo showed more weakness when being hit by hard punches than Vitlai did. I fail to see how a guy who was stopped in two short fight by the best pucnhers he meet, and another guy who who was vislibly rocked and shaken up by solid punchers, and also TKO'd in shorter order when one guy started landing on his is proff postive. Leagues more proven you say?

[JohnThomas1]

If you read Kurgan's analysis, chins are best tested when they are hit by punchers. I agree. The simple truth is McCall and Chavalo showed more weakness when being hit by hard punches than Vitlai did. I fail to see how a guy who was stopped in two short fight by the best pucnhers he meet, and another guy who who was vislibly rocked and shaken up by solid punchers, and also TKO'd in shorter order when one guy started landing on his is proff postive. Leagues more proven you say?

I won't get into this, because The Kurgan has already dished out better than i could hope to conjure up and has provided a most watertight defence. He's yet to address your last response to him and i'll let him continue his schooling without me getting in the way. He's smart, has actually seen things he debates about and has no agenda or bias. Thankfully (for me) we haven't crossed paths in serious debate

:D

[Mendoza]

I won't get into this, because The Kurgan has already dished out better than i could hope to conjure up and has provided a most watertight defence. He's yet to address your last response to him and i'll let him continue his schooling without me getting in the way. He's smart, has actually seen things he debates about and has no agenda or bias. Thankfully (for me) we haven't crossed paths in serious debate

:D
Kurgan has yet to answer my questions on Chavalo. If Chavalo was stopped quickly vs the two best punchers he meet, how is his durability extraordinary?

I'm not sure if Kurgan saw Douglas vs McCall, or if Kurgan saw Bruce Seldon visibly rocking and hurting McCall. Check the later rounds of the Douglas vs McCall fight, or round 9 vs McCall vs Seldon.

I'm also not sure if Kurgan realizes that Cobb was once dropped by an obscure fighter.

See how I provide direct examples, backed up by video? Now, let's review Vitlai. He defiantly took huge bombs from Lewis and Sanders, yet he was never stuck on the ropes hurt or covering up as long as Chavalo or McCall was when they got hit. He had the reserves to move, clinch, or fire back.

If we want to compare the shots that Vitlai took on video, they were harder than the ones that McCall or Chavalo took. Futher more, if you want the straight dope, Vitlai did not face as many smaller fighters as Chavalo did, nor did he face troves of joruneyman like McCall did. 20 of McCall's fights were vs fighters who were .500 or below!

The five best punchers Vitali fought ( Lewis, Sanders, Johnson, Hide, and Williams ) have a better KO% than the five best punchers Chavlao fought, and should be about even with McCall.

[JohnThomas1]

As i say, Kurgan is doing a fine job in this thread and i'll leave it to his educated responses.

You have however got me curious on one point, can you describe the exact circumstances in which Eddie Gregg dropped Cobb? Was it a left hook? A right hand? Uppercut? Was he on balance? Did he see the shot? I have to behonest and admit the only reason i know about it is via boxrec, but i would never be silly enough to comment without having seen it firsthand. How could i take their word, they have Hagler as being knocked down vs Roldan and we all know what a load of crap that really is.

As for Cobb's KO loss, well nobody takes much notice of that one given it's controversy and the legend that surrounds it.

[JohnThomas1]

If Chavalo was stopped quickly vs the two best punchers he meet, how is his durability extraordinary?


Vitali couldn't finish vs Byrd and was TKO'ed by Lewis, so he's in much the same boat.

[Mendoza]

As i say, Kurgan is doing a fine job in this thread and i'll leave it to his educated responses.

You have however got me curious on one point, can you describe the exact circumstances in which Eddie Gregg dropped Cobb? Was it a left hook? A right hand? Uppercut? Was he on balance? Did he see the shot? I have to behonest and admit the only reason i know about it is via boxrec, but i would never be silly enough to comment without having seen it firsthand. How could i take their word, they have Hagler as being knocked down vs Roldan and we all know what a load of crap that really is.

As for Cobb's KO loss, well nobody takes much notice of that one given it's controversy and the legend that surrounds it.

Once again, Kurgan has yet to answer my questions on Chavalo. If Chavalo was stopped quickly vs the two best punchers he meet, how is his durability extraordinary?

I'm not sure if Kurgan saw Douglas vs McCall, or if Kurgan saw Bruce Seldon visibly rocking and hurting McCall. Check the later rounds of the Douglas vs McCall fight, or round 9 vs McCall vs Seldon.

I'm also not sure if Kurgan realizes that Cobb was once dropped by an obscure fighter.

See how I provide direct examples, backed up by video? Now, let's review Vitlai. He defiantly took huge bombs from Lewis and Sanders, yet he was never stuck on the ropes hurt or covering up as long as Chavalo or McCall was when they got hit. He had the reserves to move, clinch, or fire back.

If we want to compare the shots that Vitlai took on video, they were harder than the ones that McCall or Chavalo took. Futher more, if you want the straight dope, Vitlai did not face as many smaller fighters as Chavalo did, nor did he face troves of joruneyman like McCall did. 20 of McCall's fights were vs fighters who were .500 or below!

The five best punchers Vitali fought ( Lewis, Sanders, Johnson, Hide, and Williams ) have a better KO% than the five best punchers Chavlao fought, and should be about even with McCall.

I wasn't talking about Cobb's KO loss. He went down in a fight that went the distance.

[JohnThomas1]

I wasn't talking about Cobb's KO loss. He went down in a fight that went the distance.

You mentioned it notably earlier tho, and i know what KD you were talking about hence my mention of Gregg.

So how exactly did the knockdown from Gregg go? I'm very keen to get the good oil on this one from someone like yourself who has seen it as i have no idea.

You have seen it of course?

[JohnThomas1]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, is someone trying to find something

:D

[Mendoza]

You mentioned it notably earlier tho, and i know what KD you were talking about hence my mention of Gregg.

So how exactly did the knockdown from Gregg go? I'm very keen to get the good oil on this one from someone like yourself who has seen it as i have no idea.

You have seen it of course?

I did not see it the Cobb vs Gregg fight. I never said I did. That does not change the fact that it was scored as a knock down. It seems your grasping for unknown straws here to prove some type of point. The odds are it was a knockdown, not a mistake from the referee.

I said I was not talking about Cobb's KO loss to Collier.

To quote me directly, this is what I said to Krugan

I'm also not sure if Kurgan realizes that Cobb was once dropped by an obscure fighter. My reference here was to Gregg, not Collier who KO's the iron chined Cobb in one round.


Now, if you want to argue who took better punches on films we have seen, who was stopped earlier, who was hurt more often by covering up and resting on the ropes, or who quit earlier between Vitlai, Chavalo and McCall, go for it. Let’s have a clean debate backed up by facts, and not wishful opinions. And I think you and I know Vitlai will come out the better in this debate.


Or if you want to wait for Kurgan to reply, I’m fine with that. If Kurgan wants to throw Cobb in the mix, that’s fine by me too, as he was dropped by a no-name, and Ko’d in one round.

[JohnThomas1]

Let’s have a clean debate backed up by facts, and not wishful opinions.



How can we when you use a KD as evidence against a fighter yet

I did not see it the Cobb vs Gregg fight. I never said I did. That does not change the fact that it was scored as a knock down. It seems your grasping for unknown straws here to prove some type of point. The odds are it was a knockdown, not a mistake from the referee.

The point i am proving is that you are actually the one grasping at straws as evidenced by your numerous referrals to events you have not seen and have practically zero knowledge of. You make your own agenda suiting interpretation and run with it. Unfortunately a guy like the Kurgan deals in cold hard unbending facts as seen in this debate which means you are totally outgunned. I have enjoyed the banter however.

If Kurgan wants to throw Cobb in the mix, that’s fine by me too, as he was dropped by a no-name, and Ko’d in one round.

This is the sort of shallow base that has led to the Kurgan's dominance. Anyone knowledgable in the era knows of the drama and controversy surrounding the Collier fight and i am now in possession of the facts concerning the Gregg fight. Lets just say any effort to take him down on these two points and slip Klit above him will be difficult.

I look forward to seeing your continued debate with The Kurg, good luck

:good

[Mendoza]

JohnThomas1 How can we when you use a KD as evidence against a fighter yet

There are 1,000's of knockdowns that you and I did not see. You must take them as fact unless you have heard or read they were fishy. If you think Cobb was wronged say so. As they say, shit or get off the pot. Just don't stir it for no good reason.


The point i am proving is that you are actually the one grasping at straws as evidenced by your numerous referrals to events you have not seen and have practically zero knowledge of.

See my above comment. What you're saying here can be applied to any thread in the board. I am not grapsing at straws, I am using known facts. See the differnce? You can not say Box rec or is a bad soruce, while at the same time not seen it either, nor heard it was a bad call.


You make your own agenda suiting interpretation and run with it. Unfortunately a guy like the Kurgan deals in cold hard unbending facts as seen in this debate which means you are totally outgunned. I have enjoyed the banter however.

If Kurgan uses facts, flim, and examples, I think I'll do just fine. If he tires to use judgement calls instead, I can do the same, but take note he does not choose to engage where the truth is on my side. I have emailed a few very good historians who don't post of message boards regarding the Chavalo vs Frazier fight. I'll save the replies for Kurgan. I have not seen this fight, but most ceritanly respect the opnions of those who have. If the comments are out of bounds, the readers will say so. I don't think they are.

I look forward to seeing your continued debate with The Kurg, good luck:good

Thanks.

[Sonny's jab]

This one descended in the same old Vitali PR work rather quicky, didn't it ?

[Mendoza]

This one descended in the same old Vitali PR work rather quicky, didn't it ?

I wonder who is to balme for that? I wonder who
used smiley faces and attemtped to bait or belittle first?

No PR here Sonny Jab. Lets discect things and compare. When Kurgan is ready he can say so, and I'll make it a seperate thread.

[Efil4zaggin]

mendoza your vitali nuthugging is out of hand

[Mendoza]

mendoza your vitali nuthugging is out of hand

I am dealing with facts. The term you refer what haters use. As I said before, I am ready to compare Vitlai's durablity to take punches to McCall, Chavlao, or Cobb. Let the debate be clean without degratory terms, and let the facts rule, not the rooting interests.

[Sonny's jab]

I wonder who is to balme for that? I wonder who
used smiley faces and attemtped to bait or belittle first?

No PR here Sonny Jab. Lets discect things and compare. When Kurgan is ready he can say so, and I'll make it a seperate thread.


Fair enough.
To be honest, I haven't read the entire conversation.

But I think you must love talking up Vitali Klitschko on these threads. Klitschko is not a subject I feel I need to discuss with you ever again, and I think most of the regulars here feel the same way and know your material on him almost as well as you do, and it seems to overtake a thread like poison ivy.

Maybe others are guilty of baiting you, and I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't write, just saying I see a re-occuring nightmare where all discussions with Mendoza WILL come round to VK eventually.

[Mendoza]

Fair enough.
To be honest, I haven't read the entire conversation.

But I think you must love talking up Vitali Klitschko on these threads. Klitschko is not a subject I feel I need to discuss with you ever again, and I think most of the regulars here feel the same way and know your material on him almost as well as you do, and it seems to overtake a thread like poison ivy.

Maybe others are guilty of baiting you, and I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't write, just saying I see a re-occuring nightmare where all discussions with Mendoza WILL come round to VK eventually.

Yes, it was clear bait. How can you say all of my discussions lead to Vitlai? I have posted here nearly 2,000 times. Maybe Vitlai's name was mentioned 50 times in the threads I replied to. I don’t think authored a single Vitlai thread posting in the 2,000 or so posts by Mendoza. So much for all threads will eventually come around to....

What you saying can be applied to anyone opinions here too. It is unfair to be singled out. I could play the same game, but prefer not to. Instead of belittling anyone’s opinion, I prefer to talk boxing on that opinion. It seems some others ( not saying you ) prefer to play a card by trying to belittle an opinion, without really reading, considering, or replying to in the opinion in debate format.

[Sonny's jab]

Yes, it was clear bait. How can you say all of my discussions lead to Vitlai? I have posted here nearly 2,000 times. Maybe Vitlai's name was mentioned 50 times in the threads I replied to. I don’t think authored a single Vitlai thread posting in the 2,000 or so posts by Mendoza. So much for all threads will eventually come around to....

What you saying can be applied to anyone opinions here too. It is unfair to be singled out. I could play the same game, but prefer not to. Instead of belittling anyone’s opinion, I prefer to talk boxing on that opinion. It seems some others ( not saying you ) prefer to play a card by trying to belittle an opinion, without really reading, considering, or replying to in the opinion in debate format.

OK, that's a fair response.
Didn't mean to single you out.
Let's just say I prefered the original subject of this thread - which I acknowledge and credit as your creation.

[rodney]

Chuvalo-Forman
I saw this fight recently.
Chuvalo was definately in the fight , even at the time of stoppage.
As far as Chuvalo's defence, he held his hands up high close to his face.
I dont think that Forman hit him on the chin once -- only high on the head.
Chuvalo himself said that he can take those shots all day long.

Chuvalo-Frazier
Eye injury - vision problems.

Also, many of his loses were very close fights that could of gone either way.

No one really overwhelmed George Chuvalo who had 64 KO's to his credit..

[bigjake]

Kurgan has yet to answer my questions on Chavalo. If Chavalo was stopped quickly vs the two best punchers he meet, how is his durability extraordinary?

I'm not sure if Kurgan saw Douglas vs McCall, or if Kurgan saw Bruce Seldon visibly rocking and hurting McCall. Check the later rounds of the Douglas vs McCall fight, or round 9 vs McCall vs Seldon.

I'm also not sure if Kurgan realizes that Cobb was once dropped by an obscure fighter.

See how I provide direct examples, backed up by video? Now, let's review Vitlai. He defiantly took huge bombs from Lewis and Sanders, yet he was never stuck on the ropes hurt or covering up as long as Chavalo or McCall was when they got hit. He had the reserves to move, clinch, or fire back.

If we want to compare the shots that Vitlai took on video, they were harder than the ones that McCall or Chavalo took. Futher more, if you want the straight dope, Vitlai did not face as many smaller fighters as Chavalo did, nor did he face troves of joruneyman like McCall did. 20 of McCall's fights were vs fighters who were .500 or below!

The five best punchers Vitali fought ( Lewis, Sanders, Johnson, Hide, and Williams ) have a better KO% than the five best punchers Chavlao fought, and should be about even with McCall.

vitali is not in chuvalo's league as far as taking a punch or durability goes.

[The Kurgan]

I agree. I just questioning your reasoning here. If you say Chavalo had an all time chin, then how come he was stopped early by the two best punchers he faced? Foreman stopped Chavalo from punches, and I disagree with you if you think Chavalo wasn't in a bad way. Where did Chavalo weather a storm vs a puncher and fight on?

Question 1: For the reasons already stated.

Question 2: The fight with Jerry Quarry comes to mind, where Chuvalo not only weathered a lot of clean punches, but came back to score the upset knockout.

I did not see the Frazier match, but if your referring to the Foreman match, I remember Chavalo being defensive on the ropes and shaken up.

On the ropes yes, but he was hardly staggering around the place. In fact, punch impact besides, his reaction to the punches was extremely stoical.

Did Chavalo ever come back from a bomb and win? Vitali did.

He did so, against better opponents, but this is hardly a measure of chin. The fact that Chuvalo has a better record than Vitali in this regard is not what gives him a more consumate chin resume.

Vitlai fought many rounds and shook off hard blows. Again, with Chavlao when he was hit hard, there were not many rounds after that. Seldon would not beat Vitlai. It’s an early TKO win for Vitlai in all likely hood. Douglas was a good, but not great puncher, and would likely lose as well. Yet both Seldon and Douglas had McCall in some trouble.

How can you say this, when Seldon and Douglas have vastly more impressive records and performances?

Early in round one, and it was a chin checker for sure that got Vitali's attention.

There was not a single chin-checking punch in that entire round, from either boxer. Pretty much every punch of significant missed because they weren't stepping in when they attacked and were leaning back very well. Since it was such a vivid fight moment, though, you'll be able to describe it in a little more detail I take it?

Fighters get caught with combinations when they are hurt

So, following this logic, Whitaker was constantly hurting Chavez since he was landing so many combinations? Wow, I will have to re-evaluate Chavez's chin.

Vitlai even when he was hit by bombs had enough to move out of the way or clinch. Hence he wasn't at hurt, and had his wits.

So you admit that he wasn't hit by hard combinations, and thus did not really have his chin tested in the same way that a McCall and a Chuvalo were? If this is so, a comparison of chins is rather purposeless, since Vitali wasn't tested to the same extent. Thus we can harken back to the original agreed upon method of testing chins by their being hit, and logically conclude that Chuvalo and McCall were more tested and ergo (since all chins are guilty until proven innocent) can be assumed to have superior chins to Vitali or indeed any of their rivals.

Vitali showed an extremely stern chin in his career, but we can only go on how it was tested. Taking single shots from Lewis is a massive feat (only a few hundred people on the planet could do it without visiting pixie-land) but it is not the supreme test of a chin.

Chavalo's chin was tested by which boxers besides Foreman and Frazier

Quarry and Bonavena spring immediately to mind, but I wouldn't forget Muhammad Ali. Ali had a high KO/TKO ratio in the 1960s, but couldn't come close to putting away Chuvalo.

Working backwards, Lewis smiled when things were not ideal for him. I remember him smirking a moment or two before Rhaman knocked him out, and smirking when Bruno hurt him. The smile was a false bravo for Lewis. I disagree. At the end of round six, Vitlai had more left then Lewis. Lewis looked like he was going for broke, which is what older fighters do when there down on points, and have limited reserves.

He smiled at his wedding as well, but I doubt it was because the relationship was going downhill. Yes, Lewis smiled on some occasions when he was going badly, but that hardly gives us any necessary descriptive content of the situation. What we do know is that (a) Lewis had won the last round more decisively than any of his previous rounds in the fight, and had had Vitali in serious trouble; (b) Lewis was not playing to the crowd or his opponent, but his trainer, presumably hoping that Manny would get off his case now that the fight was turning his way; and (c) his smile was not one of bearing teeth in mockery, but was the oral version of a knowing wink.

They say boxers are only as good as their last fight. This logic applies in the ring as well: you can be up 13 rounds to 1 going into the 15th, but if you were lost the last round and indeed were horizontal/holding on in pain for most of that 14th round, then your opponent is the one holding the aces.

[The Kurgan]

Once again, Kurgan has yet to answer my questions on Chavalo.

Kurgan has university classes as well as a full time job, and indeed a social life.

[Mendoza]

The Kurgan

1: For the reasons already stated.

Question 2: The fight with Jerry Quarry comes to mind, where Chuvalo not only weathered a lot of clean punches, but came back to score the upset knockout.

First off, thanks for the reply. I wasn’t saying you were ducking me, the reply was directed toward John Thomas and others who were waiting for you to reply. Now down to business.

1 ) No, you did give a satisfactory answer my question in my mind. If Chavalo was stopped by the two best punchers he meet in rounds 3 and 4, how can he be seen as having the all time best chin? It makes no sense.

2 ) You're using the Quarry fight? Quarry mis-timed the count. He was a fool. that is why Chavalo won the fight, and let's get real; Qaurry was not a big puncher at all.


On the ropes yes, but he was hardly staggering around the place. In fact, punch impact besides, his reaction to the punches was extremely stoical.

The ropes prevent one from staggering around. Chavalo was totally defensive, hurt, and Foreman was teeing off. Chavalo wasn’t throwing back much either. This begs a ref to stop it.

Vs Frazier, I hear Chavalo a guy I too think was tough immediately showed body language of surrender. In the words of one historian I spoke to “ Chavlao not have fought for another 20 seconds. “ I have not seen this fight, but if you disagree and think Chavalo have gutted it out a few more rounds, say so. Just don't ignore this observation of how Chavalo folded so quickly when he had an injury. In contrast, Vitlai's eye was badly cut, yet he fought on in a dangerous situation like a Lion. Vitali did not quit vs Lewis. Unlike Chavalo Vitlai fought well with his injured eye. Vitali was upset about the stoppage. Vs Byrd, when Vitlai tore his shoulder ligaments, he fought on for a 6 more rounds until he feared permeant injury and quit. Byrd was not hurting him with punches. So it seems that when something bad happened, Chavalo wasn't the iron man. I could and did argue that Vitlai fought on longer and better when he was hurt.


He did so, against better opponents, but this is hardly a measure of chin. The fact that Chuvalo has a better record than Vitali in this regard is not what gives him a more consumate chin resume.

A better record vs who? Chavalo was not a top fighter. He was not even an alphabet champion. Chavalo was only a guy who could test top fighters who were not big punchers. As I said before, Chavalo win over Quarry had more to do with Quarry mis-timing the count than anything else.


How can you say this, when Seldon and Douglas have vastly more impressive records and performances?

Seldon impressive? He's a chinless wonder who doesn't even hit as hard as Heribe Hide. Douglas had one good night, and outside of that was never special, though he did have McCall in some trouble late in their fight.


There was not a single chin-checking punch in that entire round, from either boxer. Pretty much every punch of significant missed because they weren't stepping in when they attacked and were leaning back very well. Since it was such a vivid fight moment, though, you'll be able to describe it in a little more detail I take it?

Which fight are you talking about here? I can’t tell as too much time has passed in-between posts.


So, following this logic, Whitaker was constantly hurting Chavez since he was landing so many combinations? Wow, I will have to re-evaluate Chavez's chin.

Are you comparing Whitaker who was more of a slick boxer to Foreman or Frazier who were good punchers. Funny stuff! Whitaker was by no means a hard puncher.


So you admit that he wasn't hit by hard combinations, and thus did not really have his chin tested in the same way that a McCall and a Chuvalo were? If this is so, a comparison of chins is rather purposeless, since Vitali wasn't tested to the same extent. Thus we can harken back to the original agreed upon method of testing chins by their being hit, and logically conclude that Chuvalo and McCall were more tested and ergo (since all chins are guilty until proven innocent) can be assumed to have superior chins to Vitali or indeed any of their rivals.

Vitlai was hit by combinations. He just wasn't hurt as bad where he was resting on the ropes. You are aware that in boxing when you get whacked, your legs and balance go, which is the main reason why hurt fighters seek the ropes to rest on.....like Chavlao did. Vitali had his chin tested by bombs, and showed no such need to rest on the ropes, and had the reserves to fire back. Here's what you’re missing. McCall was stunned by lesser punchers guys who landed the same type of shots, and Chavalo when he fought his best punchers was stopped in 3 and 4 rounds, effectively being reduced to a punching bag vs Foreman, and promptly quitting vs Frazier. Let's cut to the chase and discuss these moments on film, Kurgan. I can give you the rounds to watch if you'd like. And this includes McCall who was also resting on the ropes when hurt vs Seldon and Douglas.


Vitali showed an extremely stern chin in his career, but we can only go on how it was tested. Taking single shots from Lewis is a massive feat (only a few hundred people on the planet could do it without visiting pixie-land) but it is not the supreme test of a chin.

We agree. Now here's where you are going to cry foul. If you’re claiming that Foreman didn’t land thunder on Chavlao, but Lewis did land thunder on Vitlai, Vitlai chin is more proven vs those type of shots. I'm not going to let you off the hook here. If you say something, stick to your guns without double standards, or change your mind and say I'm correct. Do you think foreman landed cleanly on Chavlo to hurt him or not?


Quarry and Bonavena spring immediately to mind, but I wouldn't forget Muhammad Ali. Ali had a high KO/TKO ratio in the 1960s, but couldn't come close to putting away Chuvalo.

Quarry was not a puncher. Who did Bonavena knock out? No body noteworthy, but oh he had some average chined guys to fight. Bonevena could get not Lyle, Patterson, or Ellis 2x in trouble, and let's get real, neither man had a solid set of whiskers.

I would say that guys like Hide, and Johnson, hit harder than Quarry and Bonavena for sure. I would say Lewis and Foreman hit about even, but Lewis landed harder on Vitlai than Foreman did on Chavalo. I would argue Sanders as a pure puncher is at least even with Frazier.


He smiled at his wedding as well, but I doubt it was because the relationship was going downhill. Yes, Lewis smiled on some occasions when he was going badly, but that hardly gives us any necessary descriptive content of the situation. What we do know is that (a) Lewis had won the last round more decisively than any of his previous rounds in the fight, and had had Vitali in serious trouble; (b) Lewis was not playing to the crowd or his opponent, but his trainer, presumably hoping that Manny would get off his case now that the fight was turning his way; and (c) his smile was not one of bearing teeth in mockery, but was the oral version of a knowing wink.

Fighters try to act like they aren't hurt. Lewis smile was a tell tale sign in the ring. I think Lewis had a rough moment or two vs Tucker and smiled there. He smiled a few seconds when Lewis backed up to the ropes vs Rhaman. I beleive Lewis also smiled when he was rocked vs Bruno. Didn’t Lewis smirk a bit when Vitlai was rocking him too?

[The Kurgan]

1 ) No, you did give a satisfactory answer my question in my mind. If Chavalo was stopped by the two best punchers he meet in rounds 3 and 4, how can he be seen as having the all time best chin? It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense, as I stated in my first response to the thread.

2 ) You're using the Quarry fight? Quarry mis-timed the count. He was a fool. that is why Chavalo won the fight, and let's get real; Qaurry was not a big puncher at all.

So you are saying that Quarry was not a big puncher, and that Chuvalo did not beat him? How come Chuvalo's clean KO against Quarry can be disregarded on the basis of a mis-timed count, but the extragenous factors behind Frazier and Foreman's stoppages of Chuvalo carry no weight in your mind?

The ropes prevent one from staggering around.

I see; holding onto your opponent also prevents one from staggering around. Does that mean that, since he clinched when he was hurt, Vitali would have been staggering around a lot more in the fight? How does one tell a boxer who has been backed into the ropes and who has fallen into them?

Chavalo was totally defensive, hurt, and Foreman was teeing off. Chavalo wasn’t throwing back much either. This begs a ref to stop it.

As I said, Chuvalo was being hit a lot because his defence failed him, and Foreman was landing too much. He was stopped not on the basis that he was falling about, but because he was being hit too often by massive blows and not going down. This could happen to ANY boxer who lacks the defence to avoid his opponent's blows, regardless of the quality of his chin. If we are talking comprehensive durability, then yes this counts against Chuvalo. But if we are talking pure quality of chin, then this counts in favour of his chin, not against it.

Vs Frazier, I hear Chavalo a guy I too think was tough immediately showed body language of surrender. In the words of one historian I spoke to “ Chavlao not have fought for another 20 seconds. “ I have not seen this fight, but if you disagree and think Chavalo have gutted it out a few more rounds, say so. Just don't ignore this observation of how Chavalo folded so quickly when he had an injury. In contrast, Vitlai's eye was badly cut, yet he fought on in a dangerous situation like a Lion. Vitali did not quit vs Lewis. Unlike Chavalo Vitlai fought well with his injured eye. Vitali was upset about the stoppage. Vs Byrd, when Vitlai tore his shoulder ligaments, he fought on for a 6 more rounds until he feared permeant injury and quit. Byrd was not hurting him with punches. So it seems that when something bad happened, Chavalo wasn't the iron man. I could and did argue that Vitlai fought on longer and better when he was hurt.

Chuvalo wasn't just cut, his eye socket was seriously injured and he was in danger of losing his sight in that eye. While a shoulder injury is no joke, it is not comparable. And if Vitali was fighting so well with the cut against Lewis, how come he couldn't find a Suzie-Q esque punch if Rahman and McCall could? At any rate, I did not claim that Chuvalo was better at fighting with an injury that Vitali, so your point is irrelevant.

A better record vs who? Chavalo was not a top fighter. He was not even an alphabet champion. Chavalo was only a guy who could test top fighters who were not big punchers. As I said before, Chavalo win over Quarry had more to do with Quarry mis-timing the count than anything else.

I didn't say he had a better record, I said he had a better record of his chin being tested. Please read my posts before you respond.

Seldon impressive? He's a chinless wonder who doesn't even hit as hard as Heribe Hide.

Seldon had faster feet, faster hands and a vastly better jab than any of Vitali's opponents. Comparing Seldon with Vitali is like comparing Pinklon Thomas with Don Steele: Steele might have the prettier record, but it was built up against vastly inferior opposition.

Douglas had one good night, and outside of that was never special, though he did have McCall in some trouble late in their fight.

One night and never special? It's interesting to compare Vitali's night in the spotlight with that of Douglas: one fought a young unfocused ATG and KO'd him, the other fought an old unfocused ATG and was stopped in six rounds. Douglas beat an old Trevor Berbick and Oliver McCall, who were better boxers than any of Vitali's wins. Vitali might have a shot against Douglas if Douglas came in unfocused, but his achievements when he came into the ring focused are superior to Vitali's and his best win is far more impressive that Vitali's Sunday fights.

Which fight are you talking about here? I can’t tell as too much time has passed in-between posts.

Vitali-Hide. Which heavy punch was it that landed in the 1rst round that hurt Vitali? I personally saw Hide land nothing of note in that round.

Are you comparing Whitaker who was more of a slick boxer to Foreman or Frazier who were good punchers. Funny stuff! Whitaker was by no means a hard puncher.

So what you're saying is that a boxer can land combinations and not necessarily have their opponent extremely hurt?

[The Kurgan]

Vitlai was hit by combinations.

When and against whom?

McCall was stunned by lesser punchers guys who landed the same type of shots, and Chavalo when he fought his best punchers was stopped in 3 and 4 rounds, effectively being reduced to a punching bag vs Foreman, and promptly quitting vs Frazier. Let's cut to the chase and discuss these moments on film, Kurgan. I can give you the rounds to watch if you'd like. And this includes McCall who was also resting on the ropes when hurt vs Seldon and Douglas.

I've seen the fights, and you are both exaggerating the extent to which McCall was hurt, and plain just ignoring the reasons why Chuvalo was stopped.

We agree. Now here's where you are going to cry foul. If you’re claiming that Foreman didn’t land thunder on Chavlao, but Lewis did land thunder on Vitlai, Vitlai chin is more proven vs those type of shots. I'm not going to let you off the hook here. If you say something, stick to your guns without double standards, or change your mind and say I'm correct. Do you think foreman landed cleanly on Chavlo to hurt him or not?

Vitali was hit by single shots from Lewis that seriously hurt him. Foreman landed cleanly and frequently on Chuvalo, but not enough to hurt him, because Chuvalo had a better chin that Vitali.

Now if you mean that I am saying that Vitali's chin was tested more than Chuvalo's, then that is the exact opposite of what I said. To reiterate-

Vitali showed an extremely stern chin in his career, but we can only go on how it was tested. Taking single shots from Lewis is a massive feat (only a few hundred people on the planet could do it without visiting pixie-land) but it is not the supreme test of a chin.

So I'm saying Vitali's chin was tested. It was NOT tested as well as Chuvalo's. Chuvalo gets no less credit for not being as hurt by Foreman's bombs as Vitali was hurt by Lewis's; to say so would not only be a case of double standards, but of sheer illogic.

Quarry was not a puncher.

I suggest you look at some of his fights and re-consider your opinion. After all, if Quarry was not a puncher, then why was he able to destroy Shavers in a single round while Lyle could not? Was LYLE not a puncher?

Who did Bonavena knock out? No body noteworthy, but oh he had some average chined guys to fight. Bonevena could get not Lyle, Patterson, or Ellis 2x in trouble, and let's get real, neither man had a solid set of whiskers.

He also had Ali hurt in their fight, and nearly knocked out Joe Frazier. I'm not saying Bonavena was some sort of cannon-ball hitter, but to claim he wasn't a puncher would be ridiculous.

There is also an interesting reasoning that you use in your evaluation of Bonavena: you claim he could not be a hard hitter because he did not hurt boxers with questionable chins (although Lyle does not belong on that list). Now, if he was not to land his hardest punches on these boxers, would that mean rather than Bonavena being a light puncher, he was not a very skilled fighter? And this lack of skill, of course, did not play out against Chuvalo (who was not a defensively sound boxer) and thus Chuvalo's chin was tested against him.

I would say that guys like Hide, and Johnson, hit harder than Quarry and Bonavena for sure.

Perhaps, but Vitali's chin was not tested by Hide or Johnson, making such a fact irrelevant.

I would say Lewis and Foreman hit about even, but Lewis landed harder on Vitlai than Foreman did on Chavalo.

I disagree with both your claims: compare Foreman's KO ratio with that of Lewis, especially in their wins against their most notable opposition. Lewis KO'd Tyson and went the distance twice with Holyfield. Foreman also landed harder on Chuvalo than Lewis landed on Vitali, not least because Foreman did not tire quickly; he was also in better shape; and unlike Lewis, Foreman landed combinations. That is why, even if Lewis hit as hard or harder than Foreman, he tested Vitali's chin less. A combination of power-punches is always more likely to KO a boxer than single shots.

I would argue Sanders as a pure puncher is at least even with Frazier.

Perhaps, but Frazier tested Chuvalo's chin with far more punches than Sanders landed against Vitali. Again, this proves that Vitali had a better defence than Chuvalo, but also shows that Chuvalo's chin was more tested.

Fighters try to act like they aren't hurt. Lewis smile was a tell tale sign in the ring.

Perhaps, but in the corner? When did Lewis smile in the corner when he was in trouble? If your going to claim a pattern, you'd better have a number of incidents to back it up.

I think Lewis had a rough moment or two vs Tucker and smiled there. He smiled a few seconds when Lewis backed up to the ropes vs Rhaman. I beleive Lewis also smiled when he was rocked vs Bruno. Didn’t Lewis smirk a bit when Vitlai was rocking him too?

Sure, and he smiled when he was toying with his opponents as well. Does that mean that Lewis was toying with Vitali in the sixth?

[bigjake]

looks to me like this mendoza is only trying to build a case for vitali,any body whos watched boxing for the last 40 years knows chuvalo has 1 of the best chins of all time,vitali isn't close to him.chuvalo has had many more fights then vitali 93 total.a list of alltime best chins,vitali doesn't crack the top 10 we know chuvalo's in the top 3.what a silly thread

[Mendoza]

Chuvalo-Forman
I saw this fight recently.
Chuvalo was definately in the fight , even at the time of stoppage.
As far as Chuvalo's defence, he held his hands up high close to his face.
I dont think that Forman hit him on the chin once -- only high on the head.
Chuvalo himself said that he can take those shots all day long.

Chuvalo-Frazier
Eye injury - vision problems.

Kurgan can reply to this. If Foreman didn't land chin checking shots, but it was enough to make Chavalo crawl into his shell, and rest on the ropes, not punch back much, and make the ref stop the fight in less than 4 rounds, then how can we Say Chavalo took Foreman's bombs well?

As for the Frazier fight, how quickly did Chavalo surrender? And because it was caused by a punch it means something toward Chavalo's durability.

I still don't see why you are saying that Chavalo proved his durability vs the two best punchers he fought. He did not. As soon as his got hurt, he crawled into a shell in one match, then quickly quit in the other. FACTS. He did not fight back, or gain contol because he couldn't. FACTS.


Vitlai by contrast when hit with hard shots show no such weakness. He fired back, did not rest on the ropes, and took control back as quick as the next round. FACTS.

I would also say the shot landed by Lewis or Sanders was harder than ANY punch Foreman landed in the Chavalo fight, but that is more subjective but if they were side by side on videos I think I would be proven correct.

Using Quarry of Bonevenna as punchers to boost Chavalo's case not going to help you, and I do beleive other guys that Vitlai fought other guys who 1 ) hit harder than these two, and 2 ) landed harder punches. And when I say other guys I am not talking about Lewis or Sanders.

Convince me otherwise on these points. That is your job Kurgan.

[The Kurgan]

Kurgan can reply to this. If Foreman didn't land chin checking shots, but it was enough to make Chavalo crawl into his shell, and rest on the ropes, not punch back much, and make the ref stop the fight in less than 4 rounds, then how can we Say Chavalo took Foreman's bombs well?

Foreman DID land chin checking shots. They would have checked the chins of almost any boxer in history. They did not check Chuvalo's chin, because Chuvalo had arguably the greatest chin of all time.

As for the Frazier fight, how quickly did Chavalo surrender? And because it was caused by a punch it means something toward Chavalo's durability.

I still don't see why you are saying that Chavalo proved his durability vs the two best punchers he fought. He did not. As soon as his got hurt, he crawled into a shell in one match, then quickly quit in the other. FACTS. He did not fight back, or gain contol because he couldn't. FACTS.

NONE of which address the question of Chuvalo's chin. "Chin" and "durability" are not synonomous.

Vitlai by contrast when hit with hard shots show no such weakness. He fired back, did not rest on the ropes, and took control back as quick as the next round. FACTS.

I would also say the shot landed by Lewis or Sanders was harder than ANY punch Foreman landed in the Chavalo fight, but that is more subjective but if they were side by side on videos I think I would be proven correct.

On what basis do you think that Lewis or Sanders hit Vitali harder than Foreman hit Chuvalo?

Using Quarry of Bonevenna as punchers to boost Chavalo's case not going to help you, and I do beleive other guys that Vitlai fought other guys who 1 ) hit harder than these two, and 2 ) landed harder punches.

I will reiterate my questions: who and when? And which bomb was that that Hide landed cleanly in the first round of his fight with Vitali and shook Vitali up?

Convince me otherwise on these points. That is your job Kurgan.

Strictly speaking, my job is dealing with international student applications, administrative issues and other such mind-numbing work. In the case of this particular debate, I have put forward my argument on multiple occasions and it has not been challenged in the last instance.

If winning arguments were an issue of "convincing" the other, those with an iron mind would always at worst end up in stalemates. Debate is not an issue of who can believe what, it is an issue of who can put forth the best argument and most effectively criticise the other's argument.

Now, to recap the salient points of my argument-

1. Chins are tested by being hit by punches. Obviously, being hit in sequence by a number of hard punches is the ultimate test.

2. The less hurt a boxer is when subjected to this test, the better their chin is.

3. The boxers who were hit by the hardest punches and who survived this test without either going down or being out on their feet were George Chuvalo and Oliver McCall.

I'd say "convince me otherwise", but I could do that with anything. "Grass is a carnivorous marsuipial" - just try and convince me otherwise.

[mcvey]

You look a little old for university ,judging by your avatar,that is you I take it?

[Mendoza]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Kurgan can reply to this. If Foreman didn't land chin checking shots, but it was enough to make Chavalo crawl into his shell, and rest on the ropes, not punch back much, and make the ref stop the fight in less than 4 rounds, then how can we Say Chavalo took Foreman's bombs well?


Kurgan: Foreman DID land chin checking shots. They would have checked the chins of almost any boxer in history. They did not check Chuvalo's chin, because Chuvalo had arguably the greatest chin of all time.
Mendoza says:: And the fight was stopped qucikly thereafter. See. Foreman stopped a ton of guys on the same way. Chavlo being defensless and covering on the ropes and not thorwing back does not bode well if you think he is more durable or has a better chin that Vitali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
As for the Frazier fight, how quickly did Chavalo surrender? And because it was caused by a punch it means something toward Chavalo's durability.

I still don't see why you are saying that Chavalo proved his durability vs the two best punchers he fought. He did not. As soon as his got hurt, he crawled into a shell in one match, then quickly quit in the other. FACTS. He did not fight back, or gain contol because he couldn't. FACTS.

Kurgan says:NONE of which address the question of Chuvalo's chin. "Chin" and "durability" are not synonomous.

Fine. Chavlo surrendered far faster than Vitlai ever did. Furhtermore Vitlai did not surrender from injures casued by punches ever, Chavalo did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Vitlai by contrast when hit with hard shots show no such weakness. He fired back, did not rest on the ropes, and took control back as quick as the next round. FACTS.

I would also say the shot landed by Lewis or Sanders was harder than ANY punch Foreman landed in the Chavalo fight, but that is more subjective but if they were side by side on videos I think I would be proven correct.

Kurgan says:
On what basis do you think that Lewis or Sanders hit Vitali harder than Foreman hit Chuvalo?

Mendoza says: The Film. The snap and palcement of shots that Vitlai was hit with Vitali were harder than anything Foreman hit Chavalo with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Using Quarry of Bonevenna as punchers to boost Chavalo's case not going to help you, and I do beleive other guys that Vitlai fought other guys who 1 ) hit harder than these two, and 2 ) landed harder punches.


Kurgan says : I will reiterate my questions: who and when? And which bomb was that that Hide landed cleanly in the first round of his fight with Vitali and shook Vitali up?

Mendoza says: Hide landed a hard right hand early in round one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Convince me otherwise on these points. That is your job Kurgan.


Kurgan says :Strictly speaking, my job is dealing with international student applications, administrative issues and other such mind-numbing work. In the case of this particular debate, I have put forward my argument on multiple occasions and it has not been challenged in the last instance.

Mendoza says: Bull crap. In the case of this debate I have clearly showed you that Chavalo reacted more hurt vs Foreman and Frazier than Vitlai did vs Lewis and Sanders. Once again, hurt guys rest on the ropes, cover up , and don't fire back...or promptly quit. When Vitlai was hit hard, he came back to win rounds, never was resting on the ropes and did not cover up like Chavalo did. Vitlai took the punches better. If your arguing Chavlao took harder shots and reacted better, you WRONG. I proved this. Your come back is nada.

If you think Chavlao was tougher when injured, your also mistaken, as Vitlai fought on much harder with a badly cut eye, and a torn shoulder. He did not opt out in seconds as Chavalo did vs Frazier.

Kurgan says : If winning arguments were an issue of "convincing" the other, those with an iron mind would always at worst end up in stalemates. Debate is not an issue of who can believe what, it is an issue of who can put forth the best argument and most effectively criticise the other's argument.

Mendoza says: You are NOT debating the facts I present. They are true, so you can't. You can only argure on the subjective. I can do that all day long as well, but don't need to on this topic.


Kurgan says: Now, to recap the salient points of my argument-

1. Chins are tested by being hit by punches. Obviously, being hit in sequence by a number of hard punches is the ultimate test.

2. The less hurt a boxer is when subjected to this test, the better their chin is.

Mendoza: Agree!! And I would argue Vitlai took harder shots on film and was less hurt when he took them. If seems like when Chavalo wa hit hard, he was TKO'd in the same round. When Vitlai was hit hard, he pressed on. See.


Kurgan says 3. The boxers who were hit by the hardest punches and who survived this test without either going down or being out on their feet were George Chuvalo and Oliver McCall.

Mendoza says: Bbased on which fights???!!! Names and rounds por favor. I already showed you the two best punchers Chavlao faced made short work of him and stopped him from punches. I also showed you McCall was rocked by lesser punchers than Vitlai was in Seldon and Douglas. Vitlai was never shaken up as bad as McCall was vs Seldon.

[JohnThomas1]

This is just a shellacking.

[The Kurgan]

You look a little old for university ,judging by your avatar,that is you I take it?

Yes, that's me in my younger days as a world class multi-discipline athlete.

[The Kurgan]

Mendoza says:: And the fight was stopped qucikly thereafter. See. Foreman stopped a ton of guys on the same way. Chavlo being defensless and covering on the ropes and not thorwing back does not bode well if you think he is more durable or has a better chin that Vitali.

I didn't say that Chuvalo was the most durable boxer ever. In fact, I've repeatedly said that I didn't say that. I said he had one of the greatest chins of all time, based on the extent to which it was tested.

Fine. Chavlo surrendered far faster than Vitlai ever did. Furhtermore Vitlai did not surrender from injures casued by punches ever, Chavalo did.

I can reverse that round the other way: Vitali surrendered to a shoulder injury while he was ahead on the cards. Chuvalo NEVER did such a thing.

Mendoza says: The Film. The snap and palcement of shots that Vitlai was hit with Vitali were harder than anything Foreman hit Chavalo with.

I disagree. Foreman's punches were full body punches with ridiculous levels of force. Lewis's uppercuts, while massively powerful, were not thrown with his full bulk behind them. Not only that, but they were preceded and succeeded by moments of relative calm, easing their impact.

Mendoza says: Hide landed a hard right hand early in round one.

I'll check this up when I'm not at work, but I didn't see any hard rights landing at all in that fight.

Your come back is nada.

This would appear consistant with your argument throughout the thread, since you've continually not debated my responses.

If you think Chavlao was tougher when injured, your also mistaken, as Vitlai fought on much harder with a badly cut eye, and a torn shoulder. He did not opt out in seconds as Chavalo did vs Frazier.

He didn't have as severe an injury, and my original point (although it's useless to remind you) was that Chuvalo had a superior chin to just about everyone (aside from the McCall's and Cobb's of this world) based on the fact that it was so much more tested.

Mendoza says: You are NOT debating the facts I present. They are true, so you can't. You can only argure on the subjective. I can do that all day long as well, but don't need to on this topic.

I've put forward my analysis of the facts and you have done likewise. Facts, no matter how objective, have no meaning in the absence of relative analysis.

Mendoza: Agree!! And I would argue Vitlai took harder shots on film and was less hurt when he took them. If seems like when Chavalo wa hit hard, he was TKO'd in the same round. When Vitlai was hit hard, he pressed on. See.

Ah- but Vitali was not as tested in this regard. You can argue Vitali took harder shots (although this is erroneous), but even if that WAS the case, he never had to take them in sequence. We don't know how Vitali would take a full force combination from Foreman, although we can rationally assume that he would be knocked out.

Mendoza says: Bbased on which fights???!!! Names and rounds por favor. I already showed you the two best punchers Chavlao faced made short work of him and stopped him from punches. I also showed you McCall was rocked by lesser punchers than Vitlai was in Seldon and Douglas. Vitlai was never shaken up as bad as McCall was vs Seldon.

McCall took all of Lewis's bombs in their second fight, including multiple power-punches when his hands were down and he wasn't looking at them (aren't the punches you don't see supposed to knock you out? Maybe Lewis doesn't hit so hard, which ticks off the only ATG puncher that Vitali's chin was tested by). Tyson couldn't drop McCall in endless rounds of sparring while Tyson was at his peak. NO-ONE in McCall's career, from Buster Douglas to Sinan Samil Sam, has come close to knocking him down. McCall fought a huge number of boxers in the period you yourself call the era of the puncher, and not one of them could even have him out on his feet. How do you explain this?

Chuvalo's chin was tested by Quarry, Frazier, Bonavena and Foreman, NONE of which could knock him down or even stagger him. Ali at his best, who had a high KO/TKO %, coudln't hurt him. Not one of his opponents in a long, long career could knock him down. Foreman, one of the hardest punchers of all time, couldn't even stagger him despite landing some of his Sunday punches IN COMBINATIONS, which as anyone who knows boxing would tell you makes punches far harder to take.

The truth is, it's a (redunant, since I've discredited it) distortion to try and present Chuvalo's fights against Foreman and Frazier as blow-outs caused by Chuvalo's chin. Frazier stopped Chuvalo on an eye injury; Foreman stopped him due to an accumulation of punches. Neither could knock him out or knock him down. I could easily say that Vitali was stopped in six rounds by the only ATG puncher he fought (Lewis), but that would be a distortion of the facts: Lewis stopped him on cuts.

Fundamentally, McCall and Chuvalo were tested like no other, and reacted like no other. Throughout their careers, no matter the puncher, no matter the punishment, no one could KO them, knock them down, or even have them out on their feet. If that doesn't prove they had the best chins of all time, then I'd be interesting to hear who has that title.

[Mendoza]

The Kurgan: didn't say that Chuvalo was the most durable boxer ever. In fact, I've repeatedly said that I didn't say that. I said he had one of the greatest chins of all time, based on the extent to which it was tested.

Fine.


I can reverse that round the other way: Vitali surrendered to a shoulder injury while he was ahead on the cards. Chuvalo NEVER did such a thing.

Fine, I’ll play your game for a moment. Chavlao surrendered far quicker. The fact that Vitlai could hang in there and do extremely well with a bad cut or a torn rotator cuff suggests he is tougher than Chavalo, who like I said quit in seconds when he was injured. When Chavalo was hurt, he didn’t have the wearwithal to get out of the ropes on one instance, and quit too early to even attempt to get up on the cards on the other. Where is your reason? Your reversal is has been reversed by facts. Cherry picking and saying I won’t reply is not going to work for you here.


I disagree. Foreman's punches were full body punches with ridiculous levels of force. Lewis's uppercuts, while massively powerful, were not thrown with his full bulk behind them. Not only that, but they were preceded and succeeded by moments of relative calm, easing their impact.

I have to see Foreman vs Chavalo again. Lewis had more bulk than Foreman, and IMO, landed harder shots on Vitlai. As I said before, Vitlai took them better. I.e., he didn’t need to rest on the ropes, cover up for many seconds, and he fired back. Chavalo was a sitting duck....because he was hurt.


I'll check this up when I'm not at work, but I didn't see any hard rights landing at all in that fight.

Watch it. You will see Hide landed a very good right hand early.


This would appear consistant with your argument throughout the thread, since you've continually not debated my responses.

Wrong! I have given examples, and challenged you to respond directly. You sir, have not. All you give is subjective replies. If there were in a court of law, you'd lose quickly. I am proving things. You are not.


He didn't have as severe an injury, and my original point (although it's useless to remind you) was that Chuvalo had a superior chin to just about everyone (aside from the McCall's and Cobb's of this world) based on the fact that it was so much more tested.

Once again, tested by who in the case of Chavalo? And how did Chavalo stand up to these tests? Regarding McCall, he quit early when the going got tough, and was in fact rocked and stunned by lesser punchers in comparison to Vitlai. Challenged me on these facts with video or ring results, you will not. As for Cobb, he has a 1st round KO loss, and was dropped by a no name. How is this better than Vitlai's resume on taking punches?


Ah- but Vitali was not as tested in this regard. You can argue Vitali took harder shots (although this is erroneous), but even if that WAS the case, he never had to take them in sequence. We don't know how Vitali would take a full force combination from Foreman, although we can rationally assume that he would be knocked out.

Ah-but those who take combinations on the ropes are hurt. Vitlai was never in such a hurt state. Nice try. Vitali from my recollection took some combo's in his career; they just did not have a dramatic effect on him.

McCall took all of Lewis's bombs in their second fight, including multiple power-punches when his hands were down and he wasn't looking at them (aren't the punches you don't see supposed to knock you out? Maybe Lewis doesn't hit so hard, which ticks off the only ATG puncher that Vitali's chin was tested by). Tyson couldn't drop McCall in endless rounds of sparring while Tyson was at his peak. NO-ONE in McCall's career, from Buster Douglas to Sinan Samil Sam, has come close to knocking him down. McCall fought a huge number of boxers in the period you yourself call the era of the puncher, and not one of them could even have him out on his feet. How do you explain this?

McCall took Lewis bombs for less rounds than Vitlai did and quit on his own accord. Lewis hits plenty hard. So does Sanders, Johnson, Williams, Hide, and some others that Vitlai fought. Sparring stories mean jack. If you have to use sparring stories to boost McCall, your fishing. Douglas nearly TKo'd McCall. Have you even seen that fight? McCall has a great chin, and like Vitlai he never went down, however the difference is McCall was closer to going down than Vitlai was, and hurt by lesser punchers wheaars Vitlai was never hurt by non elite level punchers.


Chuvalo's chin was tested by Quarry, Frazier, Bonavena and Foreman, NONE of which could knock him down or even stagger him. Ali at his best, who had a high KO/TKO %, coudln't hurt him. Not one of his opponents in a long, long career could knock him down. Foreman, one of the hardest punchers of all time, couldn't even stagger him despite landing some of his Sunday punches IN COMBINATIONS, which as anyone who knows boxing would tell you makes punches far harder to take.

I don't think Quarry or Bonavena is a big puncher. Foreman and Frazier were and both finished Chavalo early with punches. The ropes held Chavalo up. The best puncher Chavalo beat was who? Not as good as the best puncher Vitlai beat. I think that Hide, Williams, and Johnson hit harder than Quarry or Bonavena. Vitlai beat these guys. The numbers, video knock outs, and such agree with me.


The truth is, it's a (redunant, since I've discredited it) distortion to try and present Chuvalo's fights against Foreman and Frazier as blow-outs caused by Chuvalo's chin. Frazier stopped Chuvalo on an eye injury; Foreman stopped him due to an accumulation of punches. Neither could knock him out or knock him down. I could easily say that Vitali was stopped in six rounds by the only ATG puncher he fought (Lewis), but that would be a distortion of the facts: Lewis stopped him on cuts.

Please explain why Chavalo was dead on the ropes vs Foreman? It was punches and Chavalo's durability. END. As for Frazier, he also hurt and made Chavalo quit with punches. Vitlai was NEVER in such a condition. He was always in good fighting form. A cut is a cut, but Vitlai was never hurt to the point where he was defenseless on the ropes like Chavlao was, nor did he whimper out an force the ref to stop the fight as quickly as Chavalo did. FACT. FACT. FACT.


Fundamentally, McCall and Chuvalo were tested like no other, and reacted like no other. Throughout their careers, no matter the puncher, no matter the punishment, no one could KO them, knock them down, or even have them out on their feet. If that doesn't prove they had the best chins of all time, then I'd be interesting to hear who has that title.

You’re a bright guy Kurgan. I wonder if you dislike Vitlai so much that he can't even fit into your own definitions and criteria for those who had great chins. Vitlai fits your definition to a “T “. He was never down, never in a helpless shell on the ropes, nor was he out on his feet. And he was hit in my opinion by harder shots. Regarding Chavlao and McCall, they quit earlier, and were TKO'd earlier in comparison to Vitlai. Use your reason. Embrace the truth. Vitlai had an all time chin, and in a direct comparison to McCall or Chavalo does well.

[JohnThomas1]

This huge right hand Hide lands is somewhere in the 1st round right Dr.Z? We better let everyone have a look so they know what ya talking about :good

pq-KZVyGkqU

[JohnThomas1]

As for Cobb, he has a 1st round KO loss, and was dropped by a no name. How is this better than Vitlai's resume on taking punches?


Well if you only had half an idea on what really happened in those two fights you wouldn't be here catching egg with your face. You try to be an authority on things you have not seen and know next to nothing about excepting boxrec. You give Cobb no quarter at all yet bend over backwards, forwards and sideways in an effort to make Vitali look beter than he is.

Vitali can't blow wind up Cobb's arse chin wise i am sorry to inform.

[Mendoza]

This huge right hand Hide lands is somewhere in the 1st round right Dr.Z? We better let everyone have a look so they know what ya talking about :good

pq-KZVyGkqU

It happend on this you tube at 38 seconds in. I have seen a better broadcast of that punch, and it was hard. In this viewing, Vitlai's back is to the punch, but you can still see it was a hard shot. I watched round one. Hide laned good shots at 1:36, and 2:32. Thanks.

[Mendoza]

Well if you only had half an idea on what really happened in those two fights you wouldn't be here catching egg with your face. You try to be an authority on things you have not seen and know next to nothing about excepting boxrec. You give Cobb no quarter at all yet bend over backwards, forwards and sideways in an effort to make Vitali look beter than he is.

Vitali can't blow wind up Cobb's arse chin wise i am sorry to inform.

If you only had half an idea of what really happened in those two fights, you wouldn’t be clinging to “ unknown hopes “. As I said before, there are 1,000's of things talked about here that happened in boxing. We have not seen them all.

Let's focus on what we know.

1 ) Cobb was credited for being knocked down vs a no-name. Deal with it.

2 ) Cobb was Ko'd in round one. Deal with it.

If you’re disputing official results, then the onus is on you to say why. You have not said a word.

I'll help you out. View the below link:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton, Michael Dokes and even Larry Holmes could not do what Eddie Gregg, the heavyweight champion of New York, accomplished tonight on the Holmes-Carl Williams undercard.
Gregg knocked down Randall (Tex) Cobb, the first time the iron-chinned fighter had been floored in 35 professional fights.
About the only other time Cobb has been knocked down, he has joked, was by a pickup truck.


Gregg, a 30-year-old from Kew Gardens, Queens, made boxing history with a right hand in the ninth round that helped cement a unanimous 10-round decision. Cobb was off balance and the solid punch turned his head, his body following in a corkscrew motion to the canvas. He was up by the count of 6.



''When you get one foot off the ground, anybody can get knocked down,'' said Cobb, who now has a 29-6 record. ''And anybody who doesn't think I get off balance doesn't have eyes.


''I wasn't hurt, I was surprised. Eddie was surprised, the referee was surprised, and I turned and looked at the audience and thought they were falling out.''


Gregg, who now has a 22-1-1 record (the loss was to James Broad), said, ''They can never say Eddie Gregg can't punch.''

>>>Legit knockdown from a clean punch. End of story.

[Mendoza]

For John ThomasL

Cobb Knocked out in round one.

Link below:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The way the fight crowd had it figured out, all Randall (Tex) Cobb had to do to earn a title bout against the heavyweight champion, Michael Spinks, was to score a decisive victory over Dee Collier, an obscure Los Angeles heavyweight, in their 10-round bout in Reseda, Calif., Tuesday night. It didn't work out that way. Cobb, looking more like a punching bag than a heavyweight contender, was knocked out in the first round after a severe battering by Collier.


Summary, Cobb was knocked down by a non-contender from a punch, and KO'd in round one. Links and reads provided. Offical results match the news reads. Please repsond in spin form if needed.

[JohnThomas1]

If you only had half an idea of what really happened in those two fights, you wouldn’t be clinging to “ unknown hopes “. As I said before, there are 1,000's of things talked about here that happened in boxing. We have not seen them all.

Let's focus on what we know.

1 ) Cobb was credited for being knocked down vs a no-name. Deal with it.

2 ) Cobb was Ko'd in round one. Deal with it.

If you’re disputing official results, then the onus is on you to say why.

"We" know is the wrong term as "i" know a helluva lot more than "you" know on this topic.

As for the telling i'd rather let the water deepen a little first. As a self proclaimed boxing historian i would have hoped you'd dig much deeper before making such a huge statement concerning Cobb's durability or lack there'of.

To be blunt you attack the Cobb's and Chuvalo's with the most negative slant you can find while giving Clit the most ridiculous of advantages per reality.

The Kurgan has addressed every one of your points, again and again and again and you still ask him to address them. He's put forth one of the most comprehensive whuppings i have ever seen in here and has shown some real talent and the patience of a saint.

[JohnThomas1]

For John ThomasL

Cobb Knocked out in round one.

Link below:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]


The way the fight crowd had it figured out, all Randall (Tex) Cobb had to do to earn a title bout against the heavyweight champion, Michael Spinks, was to score a decisive victory over Dee Collier, an obscure Los Angeles heavyweight, in their 10-round bout in Reseda, Calif., Tuesday night. It didn't work out that way. Cobb, looking more like a punching bag than a heavyweight contender, was knocked out in the first round after a severe battering by Collier.


Summary, Cobb was knocked down by a non-contender from a punch, and KO'd in round one. Links and reads provided. Offical results match the news reads. Please repsond in spin form if needed.

Keep digging yourself in deeper

:good

[Mendoza]

JohnThomas ]"We" know is the wrong term as "i" know a helluva lot more than "you" know on this topic.

As for the telling i'd rather let the water deepen a little first. As a self proclaimed boxing historian i would have hoped you'd dig much deeper before making such a huge statement concerning Cobb's durability or lack there'of.

To be blunt you attack the Cobb's and Chuvalo's with the most negative slant you can find while giving Clit the most ridiculous of advantages per reality.

The Kurgan has addressed every one of your points, again and again and again and you still ask him to address them. He's put forth one of the most comprehensive whuppings i have ever seen in here and has shown some real talent and the patience of a saint.[/quote]


All historians refer to official results, and none of them have seen it all. All you did was play spoiler to the point where I checked resources, which is what all historians do. I never said I was better than you or anyone else, but if you try to suggest I don't know what I'm talking about or an question an official result suggesting it was a bad call without giving details, you're going to get replies like this.

Regarding Chavalo and McCall, what I said what happened in the ring. I am not making things up. Chavlao and McCall both had earlier TKO's losses. Both quit faster than Vitali did. Both were Chavlao and McCall were hurt to the point where resting and covering up on the ropes. Vitlai never was hurt enough to do this. FACT. FACT. FACT.

As for Cobb, him being floored by a punch than made him do a corkscrew as the article says on the way down, and being KO'd in 1 round have been linked and posted here. If you want to compare Vitlai to Cobb, Cobb was floored by a punch. Vitlai never was. If you want to compare early Ko losses, Vitlai also exceeds Cobb by a mile.

I do think Chavalo, McCall, and Cobb had great chins. What I just can’t understand from Kurgan’s or your replies is why Vitlai doesn’t belong in the conversation. The facts I presented not only suggest he belongs, they also gives numerous examples on how he exceeds the three men.

Just embrace the facts, and stop stirring the pot. Its not like any of these guys were whacked by “ super “ Greg Page "

[Mendoza]

Keep digging yourself in deeper

:good

Look. You called me out and were proven wrong regarding the Cobb fights. I am tryingto take high road, and prefer to keep it that way. There is no need for you to keep acting immature.

[JohnThomas1]

Just embrace the facts, and stop stirring the pot. Its not like any of these guys were whacked by “ super “ Greg Page "

Hahaha, i'll pay that one! But next time make it in big bolded print!!! I'll play nice, you've softened me up with your ode to Super Greg Page!! All eyes will however be upon you per scrutinising your fairness to these factoids considering the leeway you have been giving Vitali.

I've made it easy and very much highlighted the points below that let us know the knockdown was in no way attributable to Cobb having a weak chin or any such fantasy. To put it any other way will show considerable stubborness to put it mildly.

Earnie Shavers, Ken Norton, Michael Dokes and even Larry Holmes could not do what Eddie Gregg, the heavyweight champion of New York, accomplished tonight on the Holmes-Carl Williams undercard.
Gregg knocked down Randall (Tex) Cobb, the first time the iron-chinned fighter had been floored in 35 professional fights.
About the only other time Cobb has been knocked down, he has joked, was by a pickup truck.
Gregg, a 30-year-old from Kew Gardens, Queens, made boxing history with a right hand in the ninth round that helped cement a unanimous 10-round decision. Cobb was off balance and the solid punch turned his head, his body following in a corkscrew motion to the canvas. He was up by the count of 6.
''When you get one foot off the ground, anybody can get knocked down,'' said Cobb, who now has a 29-6 record. ''And anybody who doesn't think I get off balance doesn't have eyes.
''I wasn't hurt, I was surprised. Eddie was surprised, the referee was surprised, and I turned and looked at the audience and thought they were falling out.''
Gregg, who now has a 22-1-1 record (the loss was to James Broad), said, ''They can never say Eddie Gregg can't punch.''


Unfortunately i can't find what i am looking for regarding the Collier fight YET but someone else might chime in. The rumours were rife from a fix to Cobb coming in drunk. There was definitely something to this bout, as any reasonable thought process would deduce.

[Mendoza]

The Gregg vs Cobb report says : The solid punch turned his head, his body following in a corkscrew motion to the canvas. He ( Cobb ) was up by the count of 6.

See, this was no slip. It was a legit knockdown from a solid punch. All boxers most pick up one leg to move.

Now your hinting the KO 1 loss for Cobb was fixed or Cobb was drunk? Where did you hear this rumor from?

[JohnThomas1]

The Gregg vs Cobb report says : The solid punch turned his head, his body following in a corkscrew motion to the canvas. He ( Cobb ) was up by the count of 6.

See, this was no slip. It was a legit knockdown from a solid punch. All boxers most pick up one leg to move.

Now your hinting the KO 1 loss for Cobb was fixed or Cobb was drunk? Where did you hear this rumor from?

I gave you the relevant points in the KD, it was an uncommon occurance and Cobb was not hurt whatsoever. It was a "balance" knockdown and i am suremost reasonable people reading the report will agree.

Regarding the other i saw it claimed in here a few times, can't remember who by, more than one i think. Vague memory tells me there might even have been drama with Cobbs purse or threat of an investigation :huh

[Mendoza]

Chuvalo's chin was tested by Quarry, Frazier, Bonavena and Foreman, NONE of which could knock him down or even stagger him. Ali at his best, who had a high KO/TKO %, coudln't hurt him. Not one of his opponents in a long, long career could knock him down.

Kurgan,

New information has surfaced on the Chavalo vs Bonavena fight. Two posters who own this fight ( Woller being one of them ) say Chavlao was down twice, once from a slip, the other from a legit knockdown. The referee blew the knockdown.

[bigjake]

Kurgan,

New information has surfaced on the Chavalo vs Bonavena fight. Two posters who own this fight ( Woller being one of them ) say Chavlao was down twice, once from a slip, the other from a legit knockdown. The referee blew the knockdown.

i saw the fight don't get too excited,those were pushs that bonavena used on chuvalo not punches hoping it would be called a knockdown[jimmy ellis used the same tactics on chuvalo in their fight as well].bonavena stayed away from big george most of the fight instead of mixing it up.after the fight chuvalo called bonavena a real dog,not a compliment btw.the referee for the fight was aurthur mercante a seasoned ref he never missed the call at all,he was onto what oscar was up too.

bigjake

[Doppleganger]

What an entertaining read! Mendoza pal, give it up mate, you're getting beat up like the proverbial red headed stepchild.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Chuvalo was never floored against Bonavena, they were ruled slips which is exactly what they were, nothing more. I seem to recall one of the knockdowns resulting from Oscar stepping on George`s foot as he was hitting him and George went down, but that is not a legitimate knockdown however.

[Mendoza]

What an entertaining read! Mendoza pal, give it up mate, you're getting beat up like the proverbial red headed stepchild.

The way I see it, my thread was high jacked, and I was tautned. Outside of meanilness giggles, I'm dishing it out like Ruby Red Robert.

If examining the manucia of fighters careers is not interesting to you, just skip those types of threads.

Woller, a man with a huge fight library says Chavalo was knocked down by Bonnavena, but the ref blew it. I think this means soemthign in the context of this thread.

I was hoping to see a reply from Kurgan or John Thomas. John Thomas in particular seemed interested what happened on film regarding Cobb. Perhaps he might also be as intrested in this case.

[Raging B(_)LL]

Why is it that you keep reffering to George Chuvalo as George Chavalo? Same goes for Vitlai which is actually spelled Vitaly... is this a matter of you just being lazy with your grammar? As for the knockdowns they were both bogus, I know Woller quite well and he is a good man and has a sound boxing mind, but I disagree with him and anyone else who claims that George was legitimately knocked down by Oscar in their fight.

I also have the fight in my film library and like I said in my previous post one of the knockdowns was the result of a punch, but Oscar`s foot was on Chuvalo`s and that is the only reason he went down, had Oscar`s foot not been stepping on George`s at the moment of impact Chuvalo would have remained upright. As it stands Mercante correctly did not rule it a knockdown, and that`s that really.

[Mendoza]

Why is it that you keep reffering to George Chuvalo as George Chavalo? Same goes for Vitlai which is actually spelled Vitaly... is this a matter of you just being lazy with your grammar? As for the knockdowns they were both bogus, I know Woller quite well and he is a good man and has a sound boxing mind, but I disagree with him and anyone else who claims that George was legitimately knocked down by Oscar in their fight.

I also have the fight in my film library and like I said in my previous post one of the knockdowns was the result of a punch, but Oscar`s foot was on Chuvalo`s and that is the only reason he went down, had Oscar`s foot not been stepping on George`s at the moment of impact Chuvalo would have remained upright. As it stands Mercante correctly did not rule it a knockdown, and that`s that really.

I used to spell it Vitlay, but switched to Vitlai when I was forced to switch poster names due to a crazed mod ( who has been permenetly banned from East Side Boxing ) kicking me out of the forum for no reason at all besides having issues with me, along with several others.

Having said that, if the film clearly shows Bonevena stepping on Chavalo’s foot when the punch was being delivered or just landed, it is a non-issue.