could joe frazier get past.... earnie shavers?

[good right hand]

im pretty sure this is looked at fairly redicoulus at first,

joe frazier was a great fighter with a incredably effective defense, effective work rate, exellent ring generalship in cutting of direction and of course his left hook.

earnie shavers was a huge stong plodding heavy weight that tired in the latter rounds and not realtively know for anything other then being very possibly the hardest puncher of all time.

but the thing that made me wonder is that george foreman used his brute strength to push back frazier and stop him in 2 and 5 rounds.

im thinking that shavers could play a pretty decent george forman for at least 2 rounds or so.

what do you think?

[Pat_Lowe]

im pretty sure this is looked at fairly redicoulus at first,

joe frazier was a great fighter with a incredably effective defense, effective work rate, exellent ring generalship in cutting of direction and of course his left hook.

earnie shavers was a huge stong plodding heavy weight that tired in the latter rounds and not realtively know for anything other then being very possibly the hardest puncher of all time.

but the thing that made me wonder is that george foreman used his brute strength to push back frazier and stop him in 2 and 5 rounds.

im thinking that shavers could play a pretty decent george forman for at least 2 rounds or so.

what do you think?

Shavers doesn't have the strength to force Frazier back, Foreman was able to just shove him back, Shavers can't. The belief that Frazier would lose to any puncher early is a bit far fetched. Also the damage that Foreman inflicted on Frazier was largely from uppercuts, Shavers didn't have one like Foreman

[JohnThomas1]

Shavers could play a decent Foreman for 2 rounds maybe, but certainly without the excellent chin of Big Daddy. Joe was a big hitter and even if there were carnage i think he'd be the one left standing. At his best i take him to stop Shavers in 3.

[anon1]

hell no. shavers had a solid punch. that is IT. he didn't have the strength & strategy of foreman to push frazier back and neutralize him. and indeed - even in those 2 rounds - frazier hit foreman with some good left hooks. you didn't notice them because foreman's granite chin. shavers didn't have such a chin. best case scenario: shavers lands his right hand on joe. joe is really hurt but gets back up (very similar to larry holmes) to give shavers a beat down. if george foreman couldn't knockout joe frazier in 2 rounds - neither could shavers - regardless of how powerful his right hand is. frazier's left hook would wobble shavers and shavers just wouldn't be as effective against joe as foreman was. different styles. frazier by TKO under 8 rounds. shavers may knock down joe like bonavena did (but much harder of course) - but joe will come back to win.

[Hitman]

If tough Jerry Quarry bested Shavers , then I gotta believe that Frazier would do the same thing.

[Longhhorn71]

If tough Jerry Quarry bested Shavers , then I gotta believe that Frazier would do the same thing.

Shavers decks Frazier in Round 1, but ol' Ernie goes to sleep in
Round 5.

[bxrfan]

Earnie Shavers is not as physically strong as George Foreman, and only weighed about 5 pounds more than Prime Frazier. Frazier by mid rounds knockout.

[Rock0052]

While Shavers was seemingly always up for getting an upset, they were considered "upsets" for a reason- he wasn't quite in the class of the top guys, of which Frazier has to be considered. So, while Shavers could land that theoretical upset, my money would be on Joe by stoppage 90% of the time.

[Marciano Frazier]

im pretty sure this is looked at fairly redicoulus at first,

joe frazier was a great fighter with a incredably effective defense, effective work rate, exellent ring generalship in cutting of direction and of course his left hook.

earnie shavers was a huge stong plodding heavy weight that tired in the latter rounds and not realtively know for anything other then being very possibly the hardest puncher of all time.

but the thing that made me wonder is that george foreman used his brute strength to push back frazier and stop him in 2 and 5 rounds.

im thinking that shavers could play a pretty decent george forman for at least 2 rounds or so.

what do you think?
Your image of Shavers here is not really in line with the facts. Shavers wasn't a "huge" heavyweight. He was 6'0 and typically weighed in at 205-213 or under in his prime. Frazier was 5'11 1/2 and typically weighed in at 203-206. There is virtually no size discrepancy between the two. Neither do I think Shavers was a monstrously strong man in the vein of a Foreman, and he certainly didn't have Foreman's kind of offensive repertoire or constitution.

Shavers is a bad failure if one is looking for someone to "play Foreman." Making provision for Shavers' puncher's chance, Frazier beats him down within six rounds.

[good right hand]

Your image of Shavers here is not really in line with the facts. Shavers wasn't a "huge" heavyweight. He was 6'0 and typically weighed in at 205-213 or under in his prime. Frazier was 5'11 1/2 and typically weighed in at 203-206. There is virtually no size discrepancy between the two. Neither do I think Shavers was a monstrously strong man in the vein of a Foreman, and he certainly didn't have Foreman's kind of offensive repertoire or constitution.

Shavers is a bad failure if one is looking for someone to "play Foreman." Making provision for Shavers' puncher's chance, Frazier beats him down within six rounds.

yea i was should have did more research, i was kinda just going from pictures and fight clips.

[JohnThomas1]

yea i was should have did more research, i was kinda just going from pictures and fight clips.

Never mind mate, many people think Shavers a lot lot bigger than he actually is, and first career Foreman is in the same boat. In the first Frazier - Foreman bout Foreman was only 3 1/2 pounds heavier than Joe, and in the rematch Joe outweighed Foreman by 1/2 pound :yikes

[Sonny's jab]

Never mind mate, many people think Shavers a lot lot bigger than he actually is, and first career Foreman is in the same boat. In the first Frazier - Foreman bout Foreman was only 3 1/2 pounds heavier than Joe, and in the rematch Joe outweighed Foreman by 1/2 pound :yikes

Joe was fat though.
And Foreman was lean.

I actually think Foreman was usually bigger in his first career than in his comeback. He just weighed more when he was old because he was FAT.
Foreman was a HUGE guy in the 1970s.

[JohnThomas1]

Joe was fat though.
And Foreman was lean.


Regardless Foreman was 217 pounds. I used to think of him as even bigger, substancially. He looked absolutely huge on TV and from memory was considered massive back in the day.

Foreman was a HUGE guy in the 1970s.

He was, but via actual measurements he would not be considered huge at all now. Far from it.

[Mendoza]

im pretty sure this is looked at fairly redicoulus at first,

joe frazier was a great fighter with a incredably effective defense, effective work rate, exellent ring generalship in cutting of direction and of course his left hook.

earnie shavers was a huge stong plodding heavy weight that tired in the latter rounds and not realtively know for anything other then being very possibly the hardest puncher of all time.

but the thing that made me wonder is that george foreman used his brute strength to push back frazier and stop him in 2 and 5 rounds.

im thinking that shavers could play a pretty decent george forman for at least 2 rounds or so.

what do you think?

Could Frazier get past Shavers? Sure. Would he? Perhaps, but Shavers can win too. I think Shavers gets unfairly dinged about having a bad chin. While it is true Shavers chin was suspect vs punchers, so was Fraziers'.

If one watches Shavers on film, he had better speed and skills than he's given credit for. Sure he gassed late on occasion ( maybe once or twice ) and cut, but he also had a big heart, and could hurt guys with arm punches. Shavers’ competition was better than Frazier’s in terms of facing punchers, and fighting more total bouts. Shavers also had many more fights outside of his prime.

I think this match comes down to whoever lands a good one first as both fighters were good finishers. While Frazier was a better fighter, style wise Shavers would have the advantage. Punchers tend to beat swarmers, and Shavers not only had a crushing right and a hard left, he also had a lights out type of uppercut. I think Shavers seems to have a bigger margin of error earlier. I say this because I think Frazier’s power is a bit over rated. A distance match between Shavers and Frazier is unlikely! Picking Shavers from early and Frazier later seems to make the most sense. I lean slightly toward Frazier to win because he has the edge on stamina. Too bad they never meet. It would have been a great fight.

[Sonny's jab]

Regardless Foreman was 217 pounds. I used to think of him as even bigger, substancially. He looked absolutely huge on TV and from memory was considered massive back in the day.



He was, but via actual measurements he would not be considered huge at all now. Far from it.

I consider him huge now.
I consider a lot of heavyweights huge.

Most modern heavyweights have inflated body weights because they dont trim down like they used to.

[ChrisPontius]

Regardless Foreman was 217 pounds. I used to think of him as even bigger, substancially. He looked absolutely huge on TV and from memory was considered massive back in the day.



He was, but via actual measurements he would not be considered huge at all now. Far from it.

The same happens with Liston. When enough people will talk about a "big ugly bear" and seeing him beat up a 5'11 180lbs Patterson will trigger your mind to consider him a huge guy. But he was "only" 6'0 204-212lbs.

[ThinBlack]

Frazier would stop Shavers in about four rounds, but Earnie would have a moment or two of glory before it happened.

[AREA 53]

It would be two round minefield for Joe, Joe was something of a cold starter certainly in the initial round, and he was accessible, Guys like Bonavena, Ramos and Stander gave Joe pause for thought, and when you can hit like Earnie, any smallish Heavy who charges into him does run a risk of getting nailed, ( i dont think Little Bob Stallings actually ran into earnie !? ) But Earnie is probably not going to acheive anything after two rounds, with Joe Smoking, that he couldnt acheive in the first two rounds, Obviously we are taking a Prime Jor Frazier, And Joe of March 8th 71, Bobbed, Weaved and Jinked pretty damn good ! too good for Earnie to zero in on him i suspect, Joe however, will i feel find Earnie with his Left Hook, Allowing for some clinching and inside bullmoosing, i think Joe would find Earnie in the 3rd, once the cracks appear, Earnies not the type to hang around...and Joe's not the type to let him....But Joe has two watch he does not Zig when he should Zag for the initial two rounds... it would be a "Dont blink" Affair

[JohnThomas1]

The same happens with Liston. When enough people will talk about a "big ugly bear" and seeing him beat up a 5'11 180lbs Patterson will trigger your mind to consider him a huge guy. But he was "only" 6'0 204-212lbs.

Actually i meant to mention Sonny as well.

[Longhhorn71]

I consider him huge now.
I consider a lot of heavyweights huge.

Most modern heavyweights have inflated body weights because they dont trim down like they used to.

George and Liston are the type of athletes that when in shape look like they are made out of steel and you can't hurt them.

One day I went to a Foreman book signing in Dallas and I saw Foreman walking up the street....but it wasn't George....it was his son...he was even bigger.

When I finally shook hands with the real Big George, my hand disappeared inside his handshake like he was shaking hands with
a toy doll.

[Smokin'Moe420]

It would be two round minefield for Joe, Joe was something of a cold starter certainly in the initial round, and he was accessible, Guys like Bonavena, Ramos and Stander gave Joe pause for thought, and when you can hit like Earnie, any smallish Heavy who charges into him does run a risk of getting nailed, ( i dont think Little Bob Stallings actually ran into earnie !? ) But Earnie is probably not going to acheive anything after two rounds, with Joe Smoking, that he couldnt acheive in the first two rounds, Obviously we are taking a Prime Jor Frazier, And Joe of March 8th 71, Bobbed, Weaved and Jinked pretty damn good ! too good for Earnie to zero in on him i suspect, Joe however, will i feel find Earnie with his Left Hook, Allowing for some clinching and inside bullmoosing, i think Joe would find Earnie in the 3rd, once the cracks appear, Earnies not the type to hang around...and Joe's not the type to let him....But Joe has two watch he does not Zig when he should Zag for the initial two rounds... it would be a "Dont blink" Affair
:thumbsup yup

[bigjake]

Earnie Shavers is not as physically strong as George Foreman, and only weighed about 5 pounds more than Prime Frazier. Frazier by mid rounds knockout.

frazier beats shavers,may have to get off the floor to do it however

[anon1]

The same happens with Liston. When enough people will talk about a "big ugly bear" and seeing him beat up a 5'11 180lbs Patterson will trigger your mind to consider him a huge guy. But he was "only" 6'0 204-212lbs.

to me liston was a "huge" guy. the biggest advantage of being a big guy imo - is reach and strength. liston had both.

[Jear]

Joe was tough to keep down, while Earnie may drop him, Im not sure he could keep him down without Joe landing big on him. Shavers wasnt as durable as Joe and because he knew this would be cautious and let Joe off the hook if he did get him in trouble, Frazier wouldnt make that mistake.
.
Ron Lyle could be an interesting proposition for Joe though

[JohnThomas1]

to me liston was a "huge" guy. the biggest advantage of being a big guy imo - is reach and strength. liston had both.

Foreman and Liston definitely performed above their weight, totally agree. Jeff Fenech like, he used to throw guys around like rag dolls (even when moving up vs quality fighters) yet weighed similar.

[yancey]

Frazier would stop Shavers in about four rounds, but Earnie would have a moment or two of glory before it happened.

Yep, that's about right.

The Acorn gets planted in 4.

[anut]

I THINK FRAZIER WOULD HAVE ANY EASY DAY WITH SHAVERS:smoke:smoke

[Marciano Frazier]

Could Frazier get past Shavers? Sure. Would he? Perhaps, but Shavers can win too. I think Shavers gets unfairly dinged about having a bad chin. While it is true Shavers chin was suspect vs punchers, so was Fraziers'.
Shavers was knocked out by Bob Stallings (who Frazier tore to shreds), blown out in one round by Quarry (who Frazier dismantled twice) and decked for a nine-count against 21-24 Bob Stallings. Frazier had a much better chin than Shavers.

If one watches Shavers on film, he had better speed and skills than he's given credit for. Sure he gassed late on occasion ( maybe once or twice ) and cut, but he also had a big heart, and could hurt guys with arm punches.
Again, he was decked for a nine-count and soundly beaten by Stallings in his prime and was brutalized by multiple Frazier victims. Shavers is not in Frazier's league in terms of any of these attributes.

Shavers’ competition was better than Frazier’s in terms of facing punchers, and fighting more total bouts.
A. How would this help Shavers' case, since he lost to most of those punchers and accomplished much less in his more total bouts?
B. It was much worse than Frazier's in the sense of containing a consistent high standard of opposition, and his career on the whole was leagues worse in terms of consistently beating high-standard opposition. Going by a quick run through his boxrec record, less than half of Shavers' career wins were against opponents with winning records. Frazier had a dozen plus wins over top 10 opponents in 37 professional fights; Shavers had three in 89!

I think this match comes down to whoever lands a good one first as both fighters were good finishers. While Frazier was a better fighter, style wise Shavers would have the advantage. Punchers tend to beat swarmers, and Shavers not only had a crushing right and a hard left, he also had a lights out type of uppercut. I think Shavers seems to have a bigger margin of error earlier. I say this because I think Frazier’s power is a bit over rated. A distance match between Shavers and Frazier is unlikely! Picking Shavers from early and Frazier later seems to make the most sense. I lean slightly toward Frazier to win because he has the edge on stamina. Too bad they never meet. It would have been a great fight.
Shavers' advantages: raw punching power, faster starter. Frazier's advantages: offensive skill, defensive skill, stamina, workrate, durability, the works. Punchers tend to beat swarmers when the punchers have physical advantages over the swarmers. When they're two guys of approximately the same size and build, but one of them is much better in nearly every aspect of the game, then the swarmer is overwhelmingly likely to win.