Jones, Toney, Hopkins, Calzaghe - ATG list

[Stinky gloves]

Who will be higher at the ATG list, assuming they all will be on it?

[jc]

As it stands:

Jones
Hopkins
Toney
Calzaghe


Depends how you feel about this unbeatable fighters taking steroids to win really coz it could well be:

Hopkins
Calzaghe
Jones
Toney

[Rebel]

Jones

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe will be bottom of those is most lists, as the lists are hugely biased towards American fighters over Europeans. That cannot be disputed really.

In reality Toney should be way below the other three.

Personally I have it - (in terms of there greatness from an unbiased point of view)

1. Jones (his dominance, big wins, HW title put him way out ahead in terms of greatnes)
2. Calzaghe (the best fighter here, but underachived, dominant, long reigning champion like Hopkins, without the defeats)
3. Hopkins (long reigning champion, fairly dominant, loses to all the best opponents he faced keep him down, evergreen and LHW champion too, what a victory over Tarver is really worth now though...)



4. Toney (I don't give a shit if he's 'old school' quite frankly.)

[Smazz20]

As it stands I would imagine it's

1 Jones

2 Hopkins

3 Calzaghe

4 Toney

[seb melmoth]

1- Roy Jones
2- Bernard Hopkins
3- James Toney
4- Joe Calzaghe

[brooklyn1550]

1. Roy Jones, Jr.
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. James Toney
4. Joe Calzaghe

[Rock0052]

1)Jones


2)Hopkins
3)Calzaghe

4)Toney


Frankly, Toney would probably be looked at more highly if he either retired after Middleweight or stuck at Cruiser. As good as he's been, I don't think his career lived up to what it could have.

If Calzaghe beats Kessler and wins another tough fight before retiring, I'd probably put him above Hopkins at #2. He's got a little more to accomplish before I put him above Hopkins, who basically took the same approach- beating alot of comp that wasnt that good to rack up defenses. Not giving up a measly 10% to pursue a Roy Jones rematch hurts him.

Roy Jones is clearly the best of the 4 from a P4P and ATG standpoint. He might not have the longevity of Hopkins, but he was greater at his peak than anyone on this list.

[China_hand_Joe]

Calzaghe over Hopkins...really? Calzaghe beats Jeff Lacy and a list of bums and he is rated over Hopkins, one of the greatest MW's of all time? I think not. He lost to RJJ early in his career, so RJJ is ahead of him, but aside from that he lost his first fight(whoopedy doo) and was robbed against that fraud Taylor. He is WAY higher than Calzaghe.

There is not one fighter Hopkins beat that Joe couldn't have done the same too and I don't believe Calzaghe-Taylor would be close enough for Joe to be robbed. Defeating Kessler would cement my view, losing to Kessler means he drops to 3rd.

[PrideOfWales]

There is not one fighter Hopkins beat that Joe couldn't have done the same too

:deal The man's got a point

[China_hand_Joe]

Hopkins stepped it up a few times and lost. By my criteria that is damaging and Joe is higher.

By your criteria Joe loses out as he has beaten less title holders and has never had the chance to face an real elite fighter. You rank Hopkins higher.

One of us is a non-American and one of us is an American, we won't agree.

[China_hand_Joe]

Being a Calzaghe fan is like being a Christian, you need to have faith.

Though Calzaghe seems more legitimate than Jesus.

[Stinky gloves]

Though Calzaghe seems more legitimate than Jesus.

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

[Calroid]

1. Roy Jones, Jr.
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. Joe Calzaghe
4. James Toney

[Punisher33]

1. Jones- maybe one of the best H2H middleweights of all time, he has already beat 3 ATG greats in Tito, Hopkins, and Toney. He has also one titles in 4 divsisions.

2. Hopkins- long reigning Middleweight champ, and was undefeated from 93-05. He has won belts at Middleweight and Lightweight, and still continues to be dominant, now into his 40s.

3. Toney- An amazing boxer, was champ in 3 weight classes and was a competitve and tough Heavyweight as well, winning a title against John Ruiz in 05, but had the title taking away because of positive steroid test.

4. Calzaghe- Undefeated long reigning Supermiddleweight, his resume might not be in the same league as the other 3, but his talent is.

[Taylex]

How good was Toney really? He got outclassed by RJJ and lost to Montell Griffin. He was a good fighter, but who did he beat to be recognised as a great fighter?

He took almost 7-8 rounds to stop an old Iran Barkely when Nigel Benn has destroyed him one round a few years before

[Punisher33]

How good was Toney really? He got outclassed by RJJ and lost to Montell Griffin. He was a good fighter, but who did he beat to be recognised as a great fighter?

He took almost 7-8 rounds to stop an old Iran Barkely when Nigel Benn has destroyed him one round a few years before He won belts in 3 different divisions, was a serious player in the heavyweight division, knocking out Holyfield, beating Ruiz, and giving guys like Peter and Rahman all they could handle, not to mention big wins over hall of famers like Mccallum, Nunn, and Barkley, he also went up to Cruiser to take on the feared undefeated champ in Jirov. He has done enough IMO to be considered a legend.

[Redondo5]

Bumped up.... It's funny now that many of you think because a past it RJJ loses to Calzaghe, he's no longer top on the ATG list. Surely RJJ achievments are better than B-Hops... the only thing B-Hop has in his favour is that he perhaps the longevity.... but then he probably beats most fighters in that regard...as he has performed at a high level up until 43 (and counting).....RJJ was also a champ undefeated for 45+ fights and included wins over Hopkins and Toney, which IMO, put him always above the other three 3 (Bhop, Toney and Calzaghe)

[anarci]

Jones
Hopkins Hopkins is only a hair behind Jones this is really close.
Toney
Calzaghe

[ed7890]

Jones
Toney
Hopkins
Calzaghe

People really underrate Toney

[rusticraver]

Jones
Toney
Hopkins
Calzaghe

People really underrate Toney

Greatness aint just about skills, its about hard work and dedication.

Skill wise toney is up there but he's a fat lazy cunt and doesn't deserve to be higher than 4th on this list

[HoldMyBeer]

There is not one fighter Hopkins beat that Joe couldn't have done the same too and I don't believe Calzaghe-Taylor would be close enough for Joe to be robbed. Defeating Kessler would cement my view, losing to Kessler means he drops to 3rd.

you said in your first post that joe "under-achieved" - now you say that "there is not one fighter hopkins beat that joe couldn't have done the same to...".

a fighter who underachieves but was still the legitimate champion of his weightclass (as jones and hopkins were) but who has to be defended on an ATg list as someone who 'could have done the same' is exactly the reason why he has to be listed under them.

joe was a good fighter, but using 'what might have been' doesn't excuse his "underachievement".

[ed7890]

Greatness aint just about skills, its about hard work and dedication.

Skill wise toney is up there but he's a fat lazy cunt and doesn't deserve to be higher than 4th on this list

He's been a Pro for 21/22 years.

For the first 7/8 years he was in MW up to LHW, and faces some great opponents.

Even in 2003 against Jirov, almost 15 years after turning professional, he looked in great shape.

So does it destroy all his good work that he's ballooned up at times, or that he's really let him since go since then? :huh

And how does greatness not include skills exactly?

[Pinker182]

1. Jones - In his prime he was practically Superman. Plus even when he was seriously shot he dropped calzaghe in 1st round. Imagine if he had swarmed all over him and put him away like the younger jones would have done. He was ould of been top 20 ATG material.

2. Bernard - Although he fought tomato cans for 8 years until then beating up two welters, he went on to gain some great wins at light heavy and nearly beat calzaghe in a close match at 43.

3. Calzaghe - Undefeated and super middleweight champ for 11 years, although competition was good to very poor (tucker pudwill) ending on a high note will a crafty win over hopkins.

4. Toney - perhaps would be above calazaghe if he had kept his weight below heavyweight.

[AnthonyW]

1. Jones Jr.
2. Hopkins.
3. Calzaghe - If Calzaghe had gone to America earlier and still pulled off the wins against both Jones Jr and Hopkins, then this list may have looked differently. It's all IF's and BUT's though.
4. Toney.

[ed7890]

He won belts in 3 different divisions, was a serious player in the heavyweight division, knocking out Holyfield, beating Ruiz, and giving guys like Peter and Rahman all they could handle, not to mention big wins over hall of famers like Mccallum, Nunn, and Barkley, he also went up to Cruiser to take on the feared undefeated champ in Jirov. He has done enough IMO to be considered a legend.

But apparently beating Kessler and a 43 year old Hopkins eclipses all of that

[HoldMyBeer]

He's been a Pro for 21/22 years.

For the first 7/8 years he was in MW up to LHW, and faces some great opponents.

Even in 2003 against Jirov, almost 15 years after turning professional, he looked in great shape.

So does it destroy all his good work that he's ballooned up at times, or that he's really let him since go since then? :huh

And how does greatness not include skills exactly?

he didn't say it's not about skills - he said it doesn't just include them.

[ed7890]

he didn't say it's not about skills - he said it doesn't just include them.

Ah, misunderstood.

There's still no way people should be putting him in 4th

[rusticraver]

He's been a Pro for 21/22 years.

For the first 7/8 years he was in MW up to LHW, and faces some great opponents.

Even in 2003 against Jirov, almost 15 years after turning professional, he looked in great shape.

So does it destroy all his good work that he's ballooned up at times, or that he's really let him since go since then? :huh

And how does greatness not include skills exactly?

He lost to Jones because he struggled to make weight, this isn't a new development.

[HoldMyBeer]

Ah, misunderstood.

There's still no way people should be putting him in 4th

thats a tough one.

at least calzaghe was a great disciplinarian when it came to fitness and training, whereas toney was his own worst enemy.

[ed7890]

He lost to Jones because he struggled to make weight, this isn't a new development.

So do we disregard his still, talent and achievements (and at other times in his career, dedication) because of this?

[ed7890]

thats a tough one.

at least calzaghe was a great disciplinarian when it came to fitness and training, whereas toney was his own worst enemy.

I dont see how discipline in training is such a deciding factor in the greatness of a fighter.

If you think Calzaghe's skill or achievements are greater than make your case.

But to dismiss Toney as being unworthy by just calling him fat and lazy...

[HoldMyBeer]

I dont see how discipline in training is such a deciding factor in the greatness of a fighter.

If you think Calzaghe's skill or achievements are greater than make your case.

But to dismiss Toney as being unworthy by just calling him fat and lazy...

what i mean is both calzaghe and toney let themselves down.

toney had the talent but not the self-discipline.

joe had the talent but preferred a steady cash flow to finding out how good he was.

calzaghe's achievements certainly weren't greater.
but both fighters never took their careers seriously for completely different reasons.

doesn't bother me who ranks higher really.
i just think it's a waste in both of their cases since most fighters would give their testicles to have half the opportunity and talent these guys had.

[mckay_89]

1. Jones
2. Hopkins

3. Calzaghe
4. Toney

[agentsmith]

1. Jones
2. Hopkins

3. Calzaghe
4. Toney
Jones should be at the top of the list. The only difference between Hopkins career and Calzaghe's is that Hopkins beat up a lot of big name smaller fighters, so I have them about equal. I would say that after Jones, Toney was one of the most gifted athletes on this list, but all those wasted years on ESPN hurt his standing. If this list was just based on best wins then I would have Jones =Toney, Calzaghe and Hopkins are about the same.

[Popkins]

Who will be higher at the ATG list, assuming they all will be on it?

Jones
Hopkins


Toney

Calzaghe

[Brutalwayz]

To all the Toney bashers, you guys are simply stupid, i mean yes he is a dick but the man is one hell of a genius in the ring. if he keep in as good shape as he was skill wise I don't see him losin to Jones or Peter

[kirk]

My ranking is as follows

Hopkins
Jones
Toney
JC

I know im in the minority with hopkings being ranked first, but i think part of being judged as a fighter is how your able to compete with your peers when past your best.... dont get me wrong it was right close between the two, but for having two wins over guys that have KO'd jones, for how long hes been at the top now, never having been truly truly dominated, and for his masterclass skills, i think their resumes are comparable and roy doesnt blow him out too much in that aspect (i may be wrong on that one) and so i take all that and to me it means more then Roys h2h ability.....

just IMO....

[PhillyPhan69]

Hopkins
RJJ
Calzaghe
Toney

[Antsu]

Jones
Toney
Hopkins





Calzaghe

[Delroc]

Hopkins
Calzaghe
Jones
Toney

based on resume and legacy.

[46and0]

Calzaghe
Hopkins
Toney


Glass Jawed Jones.

[Antsu]

Hopkins
Calzaghe
Jones
Toney

based on resume and legacy.

How the fuck do fighting unknown bums, Left hook Lacy, ancient Hopkins and Kesler (who was beaten much easier by Ward.)? give Calzaghe better legacy than Jones and Toney have

[Son of Gaul]

Who will be higher at the ATG list, assuming they all will be on it?

Calzaghe will have the distinction of being undefeated which is why Mayweather is scraping and clawing to maintain that unblemished record.

[Delroc]

How the fuck do fighting unknown bums, Left hook Lacy, ancient Hopkins and Kesler (who was beaten much easier by Ward.)? give Calzaghe better legacy than Jones and Toney have
you could say the same about jones fighting bums, and coming from somebody with a toney avatar iam not even gonna explain why toney is at the bottom of the list because your bias wont let you understand.

its not always who you fought but when you fought them. what so haglers win over mugabi wasent good because the beast went on a slide after the loss?

[Punisher33]

It's tough trying to put these guys in order. You could really make a case for all these guys being number for all different reasons. Though I find it hard to see how anyone would put Calzaghe in the number 1 spot, yes he never lost. Though during his prime he fought nobodies from 97-06, and only after the last couple years has he fought good competition.

I think Jones or Hopkins are good choices for number 1 imo. Hopkins for standing the test of time, being a top fighter and champ since 93. Jones for being one of the most talented and unbeatable middleweight in his prime.

[Antsu]

you could say the same about jones fighting bums, and coming from somebody with a toney avatar iam not even gonna explain why toney is at the bottom of the list because your bias wont let you understand.

its not always who you fought but when you fought them. what so haglers win over mugabi wasent good because the beast went on a slide after the loss?


You could also say Jones was the fighter of the 90th and he’s resume, is miles ahead of Calzaghes few good wins.
Legacy wise they are not even in the same league.



Toney on the other hand has fought best middle, super middle, cruiser and heavy weights in he’s career.
While Calzaghe wasted almost his whole career in one weight division, fighting for meaningless WBOgus belt.
When he finally changed a weight division, he did won light heavy title but he didn’t defend it against real light heavies even once.

Calzaghe was great fighter but he didn’t accomplish enough to bypass resumes of Jones, Toney or Hopkins

[toffeejack]

Jones
Calzaghe
Hopkins
Toney

[46and0]

Calzaghe - Undefeated Super-Middleweight who fought a lot of trash at times, but came through and unified the division then stepped up to claim the Light-Heavyweight title.


Hopkins - Good fighter but picked on smaller guys in his most defining victories and lost twice to Taylor, a fighter reknowned for having a disgraceful Glass Jaw.

Toney - Fat steroid-abusing disgrace.

Jones - Glass Jawed steroid-abusing disgrace and trinket collector who mostly fought binmen and sanitation workers.

[hobgob21]

Calzaghe
Jones
Toney/Hopkins

Its simple, calzaghe beat jones and hopkins. Jones beat hopkins and toney. Toney hopkins is a draw.


















































































Jk.

Jones
Hopkins
Toney


Calzaghe

[bailey]

1. Jones. Dont think he would have beat Calzaghe in his prime either, but achieved alot more, but there is always the question mark about PEDs. But MW, SMW, LHW & HW belt holder is a great run.

2. Toney. MW, SMW, CW and almost HW champ but stripped for PEDs

3. Calzaghe, long reigning SMW champ, won all the belts in the division and became LHW champ

4. Hopkins, long reigning MW champ won, all the belts in the division and became LHW champ. Good fighter but made his name (except for Tarver who had already been beaten 3 times) beating smaller fighters. Whenever he fought a top fighter his own size he lost ie Taylor twice, Jones and Calzaghe. Also priced himself out of fights with prime Jones and prime Calzaghe when fighting for less money

[saul_ir34]

Hopkins
Jones
Calzaghe
Toney

[Hooch]

Hopkins gets over rated simply for peaking at a late age and his achievements/wins being over blown because of it - Pavlik and Tarver are fine examples.

Lets not forget a supposedly prime hopkins did nothing in the fight with Jones (I saw no urgency when the fight was clearly slipping away from him) and drew with Segundo Mercado - then later on the losses to Jermain "the legend" Taylor.

As was pointed out earlier I cannot think of a guy Hopkins beat that Calzaghe would have struggled to do the same.

Jones
calzaghe
Hopkins
Toney

[Wiirdo]

He lost to Jones because he struggled to make weight, this isn't a new development.

That is certainly not why he lost, though it was a factor. He would never have beaten Jones that night, no matter if he was in 100% condition.

[Hooch]

That is certainly not why he lost, though it was a factor. He would never have beaten Jones that night, no matter if he was in 100% condition.

i love how Calzaghe gets chastised for beating an old Hopkins/Jones yet Toney gets a get out of jail free card for being a fat bastard :patsch:rofl:patsch:rofl:patsch:rofl

[Brighton bomber]

Jones - I am not a fan but his his prime he was on another level. Most naturally gifted fighter ever and beat Hopkins and Toney, so must rank higher.

Hopkins - Dominated a weak middleweight era but fought everyone that mattered at middleweight, did what Hagler wouldn't and Robinson couldn't do and jump from middle to light heavy and beat the No1 light heavyweight. Still world class in his mid forties.

Toney - Was inconsistant due to a lack of discipline but his resume is impressive. McCallum, Barkley, Nunn, Jirov, Holyfield etc.

Calzaghe - Has the weakest resume of the fighters here. Much like Hopkins was a champion during a weak era but unlike Hopkins didn't fight everybody he could have. Ottke fight never happened though no money in the world would have given Otkke the balls to face Calzaghe. But Otkke did face better opposition during their respective reigns. Reid rematch never happened despite being a close fight.

Wins against Lacey and Kessler were impressive but wins over a shot Jones and a faded Hopkins mean little. The fact he struggled with an old Hopkins suggests prime for prime Hopkins would be the likely victor.

Calzaghe may have beaten every opoonent Calzaghe faced but Hopkins would do so also.

[Mind Reader]

Calzaghe - Undefeated Super-Middleweight who fought a lot of trash at times, but came through and unified the division then stepped up to claim the Light-Heavyweight title.


Hopkins - Good fighter but picked on smaller guys in his most defining victories and lost twice to Taylor, a fighter reknowned for having a disgraceful Glass Jaw.

Toney - Fat steroid-abusing disgrace.

Jones - Glass Jawed steroid-abusing disgrace and trinket collector who mostly fought binmen and sanitation workers.


:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I needed a good laugh!

God you are a moron.

[46and0]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I needed a good laugh!

God you are a moron.

And you are an infamous Roy Jones nuthugger. :patsch:lol::rofl

How does that Roy jones song go again? "Can't be touched, can't be stopped, can't be moved, can't be rocked." Unless it's from Antonio Tarver, feather-fisted journeyman plodder Glenn Johnson, or an Ozzie club fighter called Danny Green who previously lost to Glass Jawed joke Anthony Mundine :lol::lol::rofl:rofl

And you have the gall to say I'm the moron. :patsch

[bailey]

Jones - I am not a fan but his his prime he was on another level. Most naturally gifted fighter ever and beat Hopkins and Toney, so must rank higher.
Question mark about PEDs
Hopkins - Dominated a weak middleweight era but fought everyone that mattered at middleweight, did what Hagler wouldn't and Robinson couldn't do and jump from middle to light heavy and beat the No1 light heavyweight. Still world class in his mid forties.
Made his name beating (except for Tarver who had been beaten 3 times) against naturally smaller fighters
Toney - Was inconsistant due to a lack of discipline but his resume is impressive. McCallum, Barkley, Nunn, Jirov, Holyfield etc.
Question mark about PEDs
Calzaghe - Has the weakest resume of the fighters here. Much like Hopkins was a champion during a weak era but unlike Hopkins didn't fight everybody he could have. Ottke fight never happened though no money in the world would have given Otkke the balls to face Calzaghe. But Otkke did face better opposition during their respective reigns. Reid rematch never happened despite being a close fight.
Why do you think with victories over Kessler (undefeated WBC & WBA champ) and Lacy (undefeated IBF champ) and common opponents in Brewer, Mitchell & Starie, a more prime Reid and a victory over Woodhall that Calzaghes resume is less than Ottkes?
Wins against Lacey and Kessler were impressive but wins over a shot Jones and a faded Hopkins mean little. The fact he struggled with an old Hopkins suggests prime for prime Hopkins would be the likely victor.
Why do you say Hopkins is faded? Everyone ages different. I dont think the Hopkins of now would have drawn with Mercado, but which Hopkins do you refer to? The one that lost his debut, the one that drew with Mercado, the one that lost to Jones or the one that lost twice to Taylor? Consider Hopkins fight before Calzaghe he beat Winky and his fight after he beat Pavlik.
I put
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Calzaghe
4. Hopkins
Calzaghe may have beaten every opoonent Calzaghe faced but Hopkins would do so also.
Who do you think that Hopkins beat that Calzaghe wouldnt have?

[ed7890]

Who do you think that Hopkins beat that Calzaghe wouldnt have?

That's just speculation or guess work

Does Calzaghe get ahead based on the number of fights his fans think he would win?

Cause if so fair enough, that's a shit load of wins.

[bailey]

That's just speculation or guess work

Does Calzaghe get ahead based on the number of fights his fans think he would win?

Cause if so fair enough, that's a shit load of wins.
I had to note my quote in purple. Previous note, please see.
In answer to your question I could say does Hopkins?
When Hopkins has fought a good fighter his own size (except for Tarver who had been beaten 3 times already) he lost ie Jones, Taylor twice and Calzaghe. His big name wins are aganst naturally smaller fighters. Dont gat me wrong I think hes a good fighter and HOF fighter but just trying to take all in account

[ed7890]

I had to note my quote in purple. Previous note, please see.
In answer to your question I could say does Hopkins?
When Hopkins has fought a good fighter his own size (except for Tarver who had been beaten 3 times already) he lost ie Jones, Taylor twice and Calzaghe. His big name wins are aganst naturally smaller fighters. Dont gat me wrong I think hes a good fighter and HOF fighter but just trying to take all in account

Did Calzaghe face a naturally smaller fighter when he fought Hopkins?

Hopkins was Middleweight champ, Calzaghe fought his whole career at Supermiddle or above.

I agree with you though that theres not much between them. I would give Hopkins the nod, but I agree with some of what your saying.

And fair play to giving credit to Toney :good

[Mind Reader]

And you are an infamous Roy Jones nuthugger. :patsch:lol::rofl

How does that Roy jones song go again? "Can't be touched, can't be stopped, can't be moved, can't be rocked." Unless it's from Antonio Tarver, feather-fisted journeyman plodder Glenn Johnson, or an Ozzie club fighter called Danny Green who previously lost to Glass Jawed joke Anthony Mundine :lol::lol::rofl:rofl

And you have the gall to say I'm the moron. :patsch


You are a complete moron... A Rico wannabe.... Wow, ESB is truly getting sad when idiots think it is cool to act like Rico.

Not only your bullshit hatred for Roy Jones makes you a moron, but that whole post was littered with contradictions.... You really need to stop posting.

You honestly think Calzaghe is more of an ATG than Jones Hopkins and Toney????:lol:

And Jones was at the very bottom of your list, even though he holds 2 decisive victories over a near Prime Hopkins, and Prime Toney.. (two other people on the list)

You criticize Jones for fighting garbage men, but have Calzaghe at the top of the list even though he BY FAR fought the lower level of opposition.:lol::lol::lol:

Like I said, Moron.:deal

[NoCoolFool?]

Jones - Superman in his prime. He was the man to beat. Moved to heavy and grabbed a minor title. Effective from middleweight to (limited) heavy. Risk-adverse attitude hurts his career - failed to rematch Hopkins but no fault of his. Failed to fight DM, but DM at fauly. Failed to fight Eubanks & Benn and a few others. But still a great resume.

Toney - Most skilled. Fought from 160 to fat heavy. Fought and won to boxers which all other 3 would lose to as well. But he was the only one to really push himself. Hurt by inconsistancy and poor discipline. Most active of the four.

Hopkins - Was at the top of his game longer than others. dominant at middle for MANY years - nothing wrong with that but hurts in P4P ratings by not moving up in weight compared to Jones and especially, Toney. Needed quality opposition to be exciting. Boring style to the casual fan. Hurt by lacklustre and poor opposition at middle. Awesome technician...but low output later in career. Great discipline.
.
.
.
.
.
Calzaghe - does not belong here. Greatly skilled and incredible level of fitness, output, and adaptability. Happy to wallow in obscurity for 80% of his career placing himself in the p4p neighbourhood of a Brian Neilson until he finally stepped up. Undefeated record but least active of the four. Beat a still dangerous but older Hopkins. Good retirement time places himself higher in many eyes. Great career from a managerial standpoint.

[Mind Reader]

Jones - Superman in his prime. He was the man to beat. Moved to heavy and grabbed a minor title. Effective from middleweight to (limited) heavy. Risk-adverse attitude hurts his career - failed to rematch Hopkins but no fault of his. Failed to fight DM, but DM at fauly. Failed to fight Eubanks & Benn and a few others. But still a great resume.

Toney - Most skilled. Fought from 160 to fat heavy. Fought and won to boxers which all other 3 would lose to as well. But he was the only one to really push himself. Hurt by inconsistancy and poor discipline. Most active of the four.

Hopkins - Was at the top of his game longer than others. dominant at middle for MANY years - nothing wrong with that but hurts in P4P ratings by not moving up in weight compared to Jones and especially, Toney. Needed quality opposition to be exciting. Boring style to the casual fan. Hurt by lacklustre and poor opposition at middle. Awesome technician...but low output later in career. Great discipline.
.
.
.
.
.
Calzaghe - does not belong here. Greatly skilled and incredible level of fitness, output, and adaptability. Happy to wallow in obscurity for 80% of his career placing himself in the p4p neighbourhood of a Brian Neilson until he finally stepped up. Undefeated record but least active of the four. Beat a still dangerous but older Hopkins. Good retirement time places himself higher in many eyes. Great career from a managerial standpoint.


Good Post:good

I would probably swap Hopkins with Toney, but I agree with what you are saying.

[magnificentdave]

There is not one fighter Hopkins beat that Joe couldn't have done the same too and I don't believe Calzaghe-Taylor would be close enough for Joe to be robbed. Defeating Kessler would cement my view, losing to Kessler means he drops to 3rd.

When you make that statement you also have to answer the question: Would Calzaghe ever have been able to make 160 or 155 pounds like Hopkins?

[ripcity]

Head to head Prime vs Prime
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghie

Career acomplishments. (championships quility of wins)
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghie

Talent/Skills
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghe

Overall
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghe

[OBCboxer]

1. Jones

His dominance is almost unmatched throughout history. He won titles in four weight classes and was the first Middleweight more than 100 years to win the HW title. He holds wins over Hopkins and Toney both of which are involved here. H2H he is one of the best fighters p4p as arguably nobody beats him at 160 and 168. He matches up pretty well in the LHW as only a handful (if that) beat him at this weight. His losses against Tarver, Johnson, Calzaghe and Green should not affect his legacy too much as he was past his best days in these fights.


2. Bernard Hopkins

His Middlweight reign puts him in the Middleweight pantheon with Monzon, Hagler and others. He took on all comers at 160 and unified the titles with a smaller but formidable and 40-0 Felix Trinidad. Jermain Taylor ended his Middlweight reign with two controversial victories. Hopkins then moved up and dominated Tarver while being the heavy underdog. His loss against Jones affects him a bit but still he keeps a high rating here. His loss against Joe Calzaghe isn't enough to drop him lower than Joe or Toney, he was 44 there and wasn't the same monster he was against Trinidad.

3. Toney

His longevity in 83 fights is underrated when James Toney comes up when rating him. He was the second fighter in 100 years after Jones to win the HW title but was later caught for steroids which stripped him of the title. He won the MW title from the highly skilled Michael Nunn who was 36-0. He had a decent reign but stole a victory away from Dave Tiberi in which he performed poorly. He moved up to Super Middle and holds wins over McCallum, Barkley and Littles. He was dominated by Jones over 12 and was nearly shut out in that fight. He moved up to light heavy and proceeded poor performances against Griffin and Thadzi. He resurged his career by making a good CW run and beating Vassily Jirov despite being the underdog. He moved up to HW and built himself a solid resume despite being greatly undersized.

4. Calzaghe

Being undefeated means something even if someone fights stiffs his whole career says Larry Holmes. I agree with this statement and think that Calzaghe had an OK resume. He won the title from an old Eubank but still a solid win for a young fighter like Calzaghe. He is the greatest of all time at 168 based on accomplishments but not H2H as I rate him below Jones in that department. He holds solid wins over Reid, Sheika, Woodhall, Lacy, Sika and Kessler at 168. He moved up to beat the still formidable but old Bernard Hopkins. To cap off his career he beat the shell of Roy Jones Jr. in a meaningless fight that was 10 years too late.

[MrPR]

1.Bernard "The Excutioner" Hopkins
2.Roy Jones Jr
3.James "Lights Out" Toney

[box101]

so no one is going to give james credit for beating doug dewitt,reggie johnson,prince charles willams all world champs plus then undefeated merqui sosa,an tim littles solid contenders to go along with other champs listed on resume.1a toney 1b jones 3 hopkins 4 joe

[Brutalwayz]

head to head prime vs prime
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghie

career acomplishments. (championships quility of wins)
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghie

talent/skills
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghe

overall
1. Jones
2. Toney
3. Hopkins
4. Calzaghe

ding ding ding!!! We have a winner!!!:d

[46and0]

You are a complete moron... A Rico wannabe.... Wow, ESB is truly getting sad when idiots think it is cool to act like Rico.

Not only your bullshit hatred for Roy Jones makes you a moron, but that whole post was littered with contradictions.... You really need to stop posting.

You honestly think Calzaghe is more of an ATG than Jones Hopkins and Toney????:lol:

And Jones was at the very bottom of your list, even though he holds 2 decisive victories over a near Prime Hopkins, and Prime Toney.. (two other people on the list)

You criticize Jones for fighting garbage men, but have Calzaghe at the top of the list even though he BY FAR fought the lower level of opposition.:lol::lol::lol:

Like I said, Moron.:deal

A Rico wannabe? Why, because I too know a Glass Jawed joke when I see one? Or is it the Glass Jaw avatars, which incidentally I created.:patsch

I can't believe you rate a steroid-injecting, fat illiterate pea-brained idiot such as James Toney ahead of Joe Calzaghe. That shows your clear bias. You are a complete and utter Roy Jones fanboy nuthugger. It's enough to make one want to vomit.:barf:rofl:lol:

And you say that Jones' opponents were better than Calzaghe's. How so? Calzaghe fought full-time boxers. Jones fought part-time boxing hobbyists who worked the firestations and sanitation plants of Backwater, Idaho or Bumfuck, Tennessee. :lol::lol::lol:

[darryl1914]

1. Jones

His dominance is almost unmatched throughout history. He won titles in four weight classes and was the first Middleweight more than 100 years to win the HW title. He holds wins over Hopkins and Toney both of which are involved here. H2H he is one of the best fighters p4p as arguably nobody beats him at 160 and 168. He matches up pretty well in the LHW as only a handful (if that) beat him at this weight. His losses against Tarver, Johnson, Calzaghe and Green should not affect his legacy too much as he was past his best days in these fights.


2. Bernard Hopkins

His Middlweight reign puts him in the Middleweight pantheon with Monzon, Hagler and others. He took on all comers at 160 and unified the titles with a smaller but formidable and 40-0 Felix Trinidad. Jermain Taylor ended his Middlweight reign with two controversial victories. Hopkins then moved up and dominated Tarver while being the heavy underdog. His loss against Jones affects him a bit but still he keeps a high rating here. His loss against Joe Calzaghe isn't enough to drop him lower than Joe or Toney, he was 44 there and wasn't the same monster he was against Trinidad.

3. Toney

His longevity in 83 fights is underrated when James Toney comes up when rating him. He was the second fighter in 100 years after Jones to win the HW title but was later caught for steroids which stripped him of the title. He won the MW title from the highly skilled Michael Nunn who was 36-0. He had a decent reign but stole a victory away from Dave Tiberi in which he performed poorly. He moved up to Super Middle and holds wins over McCallum, Barkley and Littles. He was dominated by Jones over 12 and was nearly shut out in that fight. He moved up to light heavy and proceeded poor performances against Griffin and Thadzi. He resurged his career by making a good CW run and beating Vassily Jirov despite being the underdog. He moved up to HW and built himself a solid resume despite being greatly undersized.

4. Calzaghe

Being undefeated means something even if someone fights stiffs his whole career says Larry Holmes. I agree with this statement and think that Calzaghe had an OK resume. He won the title from an old Eubank but still a solid win for a young fighter like Calzaghe. He is the greatest of all time at 168 based on accomplishments but not H2H as I rate him below Jones in that department. He holds solid wins over Reid, Sheika, Woodhall, Lacy, Sika and Kessler at 168. He moved up to beat the still formidable but old Bernard Hopkins. To cap off his career he beat the shell of Roy Jones Jr. in a meaningless fight that was 10 years too late.

Well F***ING Said!!!!!:good

[des3995]

Calzaghe
Jones
Toney/Hopkins

Its simple, calzaghe beat jones and hopkins. Jones beat hopkins and toney. Toney hopkins is a draw.


















































































Jk.

Jones
Hopkins
Toney


Calzaghe
LOL..... ya got me.

[des3995]

Jones - Superman in his prime. He was the man to beat. Moved to heavy and grabbed a minor title. Effective from middleweight to (limited) heavy. Risk-adverse attitude hurts his career - failed to rematch Hopkins but no fault of his. Failed to fight DM, but DM at fauly. Failed to fight Eubanks & Benn and a few others. But still a great resume.

Toney - Most skilled. Fought from 160 to fat heavy. Fought and won to boxers which all other 3 would lose to as well. But he was the only one to really push himself. Hurt by inconsistancy and poor discipline. Most active of the four.

Hopkins - Was at the top of his game longer than others. dominant at middle for MANY years - nothing wrong with that but hurts in P4P ratings by not moving up in weight compared to Jones and especially, Toney. Needed quality opposition to be exciting. Boring style to the casual fan. Hurt by lacklustre and poor opposition at middle. Awesome technician...but low output later in career. Great discipline.
.
.
.
.
.
Calzaghe - does not belong here. Greatly skilled and incredible level of fitness, output, and adaptability. Happy to wallow in obscurity for 80% of his career placing himself in the p4p neighbourhood of a Brian Neilson until he finally stepped up. Undefeated record but least active of the four. Beat a still dangerous but older Hopkins. Good retirement time places himself higher in many eyes. Great career from a managerial standpoint.
Reluctantly, I concur.

[Axe]

Good thread. Overall I see it as:

1. Jones
2. Hopkins
3. Toney
4. Calzaghe

[Axe]

Calzaghe - Undefeated Super-Middleweight who fought a lot of trash at times, but came through and unified the division then stepped up to claim the Light-Heavyweight title.


Hopkins - Good fighter but picked on smaller guys in his most defining victories and lost twice to Taylor, a fighter reknowned for having a disgraceful Glass Jaw.

Toney - Fat steroid-abusing disgrace.

Jones - Glass Jawed steroid-abusing disgrace and trinket collector who mostly fought binmen and sanitation workers.

If you completely reversed your list, it would actually be credible.

That speaks volumes about your boxing knowledge. :lol:

[FORMIDABLE]

Jones
Hopkins
Calzaghe
Toney

Jones clear #1. Hopkins and Calzaghe are close for me, have Hops just ahead. They are all way ahead of Toney imo.

[des3995]

If you completely reversed your list, it would actually be credible.

That speaks volumes about your boxing knowledge. :lol:



:rofl:rofl:rofl :bbb

[Brit Sillynanny]

If you completely reversed your list, it would actually be credible.

That speaks volumes about your boxing knowledge. :lol:


Exactly. The kid is a complete moron. Wears Calz' panties to bed - what a huge club it is on ESB.

[46and0]

If you completely reversed your list, it would actually be credible.

That speaks volumes about your boxing knowledge. :lol:

:lol::lol::lol: Why is my list topsy turvy? Is it because I rate a boxer who fought clean over two STEROID CHEATS? :rofl

You must be happy to overlook that fact by supporting two known cheaters in boxing, two guys who juiced to gain an advantage. They are both disgraceful figures and should be banned permanently from the sport of boxing. There is no place for steroid abusers.

[46and0]

Exactly. The kid is a complete moron. Wears Calz' panties to bed - what a huge club it is on ESB.

Another despicable Jones nuthugger chimes in to defend his hero. :lol::lol::lol:

What a Glass Jawed fraud Roy Jones is.


"Y'all musta forgot I gotta Glass Jaw" :rofl:rofl:lol:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[MAG1965]

1. Jones- maybe one of the best H2H middleweights of all time, he has already beat 3 ATG greats in Tito, Hopkins, and Toney. He has also one titles in 4 divsisions.

2. Hopkins- long reigning Middleweight champ, and was undefeated from 93-05. He has won belts at Middleweight and Lightweight, and still continues to be dominant, now into his 40s.

3. Toney- An amazing boxer, was champ in 3 weight classes and was a competitve and tough Heavyweight as well, winning a title against John Ruiz in 05, but had the title taking away because of positive steroid test.

4. Calzaghe- Undefeated long reigning Supermiddleweight, his resume might not be in the same league as the other 3, but his talent is.This is how I see it. Jones and Hopkins can be interchanged possibly and so can Toney/Calzaghe. But the top 2 and bottom 2 are where they should be- pretty much this is how I would have had it. The most inconsistent of the 4 is Toney, but he is so skilled that it does not hurt him much. Toney never was in the Hopkins and Jones class. And I have the feeling Calzaghe is being underrated lately.

[NeckBreaknAiken]

Jones
Hopkins


Toney

Calzaghe

:deal

We agree o something. Finally.:good

[HEADBANGER]

calzaghe
hopkins
jones
toney

[TommyV]

Jones
Hopkins Hopkins is only a hair behind Jones this is really close.
Toney
Calzaghe

Why are you always bumping year or 2 old threads?

[Stinky gloves]

Good thread....
I started it in 2007 ... I see it was 3 years too early over then :lol:

[bailey]

Did Calzaghe face a naturally smaller fighter when he fought Hopkins?

Hopkins was Middleweight champ, Calzaghe fought his whole career at Supermiddle or above.

I agree with you though that theres not much between them. I would give Hopkins the nod, but I agree with some of what your saying.

And fair play to giving credit to Toney :good
Hopkins debuted at LHW and grew into LHW before Calzaghe, Calzaghe was having his 1st fight at LHW whilst Hopkins was having his 3rd in a row and 4th in total

[Mind Reader]

A Rico wannabe? Why, because I too know a Glass Jawed joke when I see one? Or is it the Glass Jaw avatars, which incidentally I created.:patsch

I can't believe you rate a steroid-injecting, fat illiterate pea-brained idiot such as James Toney ahead of Joe Calzaghe. That shows your clear bias. You are a complete and utter Roy Jones fanboy nuthugger. It's enough to make one want to vomit.:barf:rofl:lol:

And you say that Jones' opponents were better than Calzaghe's. How so? Calzaghe fought full-time boxers. Jones fought part-time boxing hobbyists who worked the firestations and sanitation plants of Backwater, Idaho or Bumfuck, Tennessee. :lol::lol::lol:


A Rico wannabe because you guys say the same things the same exact way. And I believe he came first, he is like the Chin Checkers Godfather and you are his loyal student.


You call me a Jones nuthugger, look at how many credible posters in this thread that think the same thing I do.... Just because you don't believe Roy Jones is the least great out of the 4, that makes you a nutthugger huh?


Roy Jones fought better competition than Joe Calzaghe..... This is a fact, It is not even worth debating.

If I am a Jones nuthugger, you must be a Calzaghe fan girl, because having Calzaghe at the top of the list is fucking ridiculous.

I believe a poster said if you flipped your list it would be accurate, i agree with that. He was also correct when he said it speaks volumes of you boxing knowledge.:good

[simon850]

1. Jones Jr
2. Hopkins
3. Calzaghe
4. Toney

[Mind Reader]

A Rico wannabe? Why, because I too know a Glass Jawed joke when I see one? Or is it the Glass Jaw avatars, which incidentally I created.:patsch

I can't believe you rate a steroid-injecting, fat illiterate pea-brained idiot such as James Toney ahead of Joe Calzaghe. That shows your clear bias. You are a complete and utter Roy Jones fanboy nuthugger. It's enough to make one want to vomit.:barf:rofl:lol:

And you say that Jones' opponents were better than Calzaghe's. How so? Calzaghe fought full-time boxers. Jones fought part-time boxing hobbyists who worked the firestations and sanitation plants of Backwater, Idaho or Bumfuck, Tennessee. :lol::lol::lol:



Well, You rate the steroid-injecting, fat illiterate pea-brained idiot such as James Toney over Roy Jones, even though Roy Jones beat the shit out of him when they were both prime.... And you think I am biased???? Or did you know they even fought? Probably not, you don't seem to know much about boxing.:lol:

[46and0]

Well, You rate the steroid-injecting, fat illiterate pea-brained idiot such as James Toney over Roy Jones, even though Roy Jones beat the shit out of him when they were both prime.... And you think I am biased???? Or did you know they even fought? Probably not, you don't seem to know much about boxing.:lol:


I do know that they fought and Jones won. Of course I do. It's an established fact that Toney was preoccupied with the burger van in the arena to concentrate on shattering Jones' Glass Jaw. I placed Toney higher in my list because he has never been knocked out in embarrassing fashion. :rofl:rofl:rofl

[Mind Reader]

I do know that they fought and Jones won. Of course I do. It's an established fact that Toney was preoccupied with the burger van in the arena to concentrate on shattering Jones' Glass Jaw. I placed Toney higher in my list because he has never been knocked out in embarrassing fashion. :rofl:rofl:rofl


It's an established fact that you will say anything to discredit anything that Roy has done, you are just a hater, like your boyfriend Rico.:yep

[dubace]

jones
hopkins
calzaghe
toney

calzagghe knows he got his ass whipped every time hopkins exchanged with him and that's why he accepted the cheap win and was too big a bitch to give a rematch. hopkins called his weak ass out the first time, called him out again, and calzaghe was too big a bitch to prove he was the better fighter. i feel bad putting him ahead of toney. his only real and noteworthy win comes against a b level kessler. get over itt!

[Lance_Uppercut]

Jones
Hopkins
Toney
Calzaghe


Calzaghe actually doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with those three.

[asero]

1. Jones Jr
2. Hopkins
3. Calzaghe
4. Toney

:good

Toney is borderline ATG to me

[dubace]

I had to note my quote in purple. Previous note, please see.
In answer to your question I could say does Hopkins?
When Hopkins has fought a good fighter his own size (except for Tarver who had been beaten 3 times already) he lost ie Jones, Taylor twice and Calzaghe. His big name wins are aganst naturally smaller fighters. Dont gat me wrong I think hes a good fighter and HOF fighter but just trying to take all in account
every win hopkins has is by UD or KO. only bitches like calzaghe find false victories in SDs.

[BagsWithDust]

1. B Hop
2. Jones
3. Toney
4. Calzaghe

Calzaghe shouldnt be considered atg let alone greatest of this era, no body knew about him till couple of years ago. do you know that that tells me? That he hid in his country for 10 years fought limited opposition and swept into america when the guys who were actually dominating started to fall apart. Its like when you are playing dodgeball and theres this one kid whose just killing the other team, as soon as he starts to get tired the kid who hid in the corner comes and takes him out and hes considered the greatest.

[cuchulain]

Jones



Calzaghe
Hopkins
Toney


The order of the bottom three is very fluid and could go any way you chose, depending on the choice and weight of criteria.

[keith]

Jones
Hopkins
Toney
Calzaghe


Calzaghe actually doesn't even deserve to be mentioned with those three.



HRMMMMM,

That's my list also, with the same opinion at the end.

I must go reconsider.........



Keith

[Lance_Uppercut]

HRMMMMM,

That's my list also, with the same opinion at the end.

I must go reconsider.........


Keith

:lol: asshole

:good

[Rumsfeld]

1. Hopkins
2. Calzaghe
3. Jones
4. Toney

[keith]

1. Hopkins
2. Calzaghe
3. Jones
4. Toney


That's fucking ridiculous.


Keith

[Rumsfeld]

That's fucking ridiculous.


Hopkins and Calzaghe both had extremely dominant runs as champion.

Jones' most famous title reign (light heavy) was one of the most dubious "undisputed" championship runs in the history of the sport.

Did Jones ever beat the top dog in any division?

:smoke

[HoldMyBeer]

Hopkins and Calzaghe both had extremely dominant runs as champion.

Jones' most famous run (light heavy) was one of the most dubious championship reigns in the history of the sport.

Did Jones ever beat the top dog in any division?

:smoke
jones was the p4p top dog in the universal division - so i hope you're not serious.

[Rumsfeld]

jones was the p4p top dog in the universal division - so i hope you're not serious.

I'm as serious as a heart attack.

[HoldMyBeer]

I'm as serious as a heart attack.

that's pretty serious - give me a few years and i'll let you know how serious that is ;)

in the meantime...

you do realise calzaghe, despite being a legit champion, never allowed himself equal footing on the world stage and never beat a proven world class fighter in his prime, don't you?

there's a real stigma attached to euro fighters who stay in the background to avoid big matchups, but calzaghe is the only legit champion i can think of who consciously did this.

[keith]

Hopkins and Calzaghe both had extremely dominant runs as champion.

Jones' most famous title reign (light heavy) was one of the most dubious "undisputed" championship runs in the history of the sport.

Did Jones ever beat the top dog in any division?

:smoke


Well he beat the number one guy on your list. So middleweight, check.

Super Middle - Toney Check.

Lt heavy Unfiied the titles whooped the guy that beat Dm who wouldn't fight him so check.

10 years as pound for pound best fighter in the world. Check.

Oh yeah and won a version of the heavywieght title.

Check.

Again, that list is ridiculous. Hopkins would NEVER even have been a champ if Jones didn't leave the division.

Keith

[Rumsfeld]

Well he beat the number one guy on your list. So middleweight, check.

Super Middle - Toney Check.

Lt heavy Unfiied the titles whooped the guy that beat Dm who wouldn't fight him so check.

10 years as pound for pound best fighter in the world. Check.

Oh yeah and won a version of the heavywieght title.

Check.

Again, that list is ridiculous. Hopkins would NEVER even have been a champ if Jones didn't leave the division.

Keith

Would have, could have, should have.

The facts remains, Jones' run at light heavy is a total sham and his #1 P4P ranking was based more on flash than accomplishment during a good portion of that reign.

And I do believe Jones has subsequently hurt his legacy, unlike say, Holyfield who remained competitive at the top level despite suffering numerous losses towards the end.

Jones' career was a carefully orchestrated charade, and the fact that he never fought Michalczewski hurts his legacy.

In a recent series of surveys I've conducted, Hopkins was one of two active fighters to finish in the top ten on an all-time list.

Hopkins ranked as the #5 middleweight of all time, whereas, Jones rated outside the top ten in his keynote division.

Jones may have been a greater talent than Hopkins at one point, but Hopkins longevity against the elit give him a clear edge over Roy in terms of legacy.

Feel free to disagree with me--most people do.

But in my eyes, Jones is one of the most overrated fighters to ever lace up the gloves. And he was a SENSATIONAL physical specimen in is prime, so it's ashame he never dared to be great.

[HoldMyBeer]

Would have, could have, should have.

The facts remains, Jones' run at light heavy is a total sham and his #1 P4P ranking was based more on flash than accomplishment during a good portion of that reign.

And I do believe Jones has subsequently hurt his legacy, unlike say, Holyfield who remained competitive at the top level despite suffering numerous losses towards the end.

Jones' career was a carefully orchestrated charade, and the fact that he never fought Michalczewski hurts his legacy.

In a recent series of surveys I've conducted, Hopkins was one of two active fighters to finish in the top ten on an all-time list.

Hopkins ranked as the #5 middleweight of all time, whereas, Jones rated outside the top ten in his keynote division.

Jones may have been a greater talent than Hopkins at one point, but Hopkins longevity against the elit give him a clear edge over Roy in terms of legacy.

Feel free to disagree with me--most people do.

But in my eyes, Jones is one of the most overrated fighters to ever lace up the gloves. And he was a SENSATIONAL physical specimen in is prime, so it's ashame he never dared to be great.


regardless of what you think - jones ruled his division on the world stage.
calzaghe didn't. he shouted from wales.
now i don't know if you're british but so far it smacks of british sentiment ;)

prove me wrong one way or the other.

[keith]

Would have, could have, should have.

The facts remains, Jones' run at light heavy is a total sham and his #1 P4P ranking was based more on flash than accomplishment during a good portion of that reign.

And I do believe Jones has subsequently hurt his legacy, unlike say, Holyfield who remained competitive at the top level despite suffering numerous losses towards the end.

Jones' career was a carefully orchestrated charade, and the fact that he never fought Michalczewski hurts his legacy.

In a recent series of surveys I've conducted, Hopkins was one of two active fighters to finish in the top ten on an all-time list.

Hopkins ranked as the #5 middleweight of all time, whereas, Jones rated outside the top ten in his keynote division.

Jones may have been a greater talent than Hopkins at one point, but Hopkins longevity against the elit give him a clear edge over Roy in terms of legacy.

Feel free to disagree with me--most people do.

But in my eyes, Jones is one of the most overrated fighters to ever lace up the gloves. And he was a SENSATIONAL physical specimen in is prime, so it's ashame he never dared to be great.


yeah beating 18 champions and winning titles in 4 weight classes is a crappy legacy.

Again the only reason Hopkins had ANY title run at all is because Jones left the division to fight a guy who was BETTER than any middlewight at the time.

Most people would laud a fighter moving up a weight class for a tougher challenge. Yet Jones gets knocked for it.

You've been hanging out int he classic forum too much it seems. As anyone who fought in the last 25 years gets NO love there.


Keith

[Rumsfeld]

regardless of what you think - jones ruled his division on the world stage.

On the "world stage"? Despite never beating the man who had already unified 3 out of 4 belts?

Interesting choice of word, "world stage".

calzaghe didn't. he shouted from wales.
now i don't know if you're british but so far it smacks of british sentiment ;)

:lol:

[keith]

On the "world stage"? Despite never beating the man who had already unified 3 out of 4 belts?

Interesting choice of word, "world stage".



:lol:

And dropped two of them to avoid fighting the likes of David telesco and William Guthrie.

And then turning down multiple offers from Jones camp with excuses like "We don't take offers from faxes".

I can't believe how far off you are on this one......

Wait, have you been hanging out with Farmboxer?:D



Keith

[Rumsfeld]

You've been hanging out int he classic forum too much it seems. As anyone who fought in the last 25 years gets NO love there.


Not true, and I would like to believe my surveys prove it.

Two active fighters finished top ten all time in the original 8 weight classes (with two to go).

Hopkins finished as the #5 middleweight of all-time (which was exactly where I had him on my list).

Pacquiao was #9 on the featherweight list (which I disagree with because Pacquiao had just four fights in the weight class--I think some people were infected with "Pac Man Fever" given that survey was held around the time Pacquiao defeated Cotto).

If memory serves, Jones finished #11 on the all-time light heavy survey (which I found to be overly generous, considering the rich history of this celebrated weight class).

Are you saying you would put Jones in your top 10 all time for light heavy?

Do you disagree that Hopkins belongs in the top 5 all time fr middle?

More imprtantly, let's take this one point:

Do you think Jones' legacy suffers that he never fought Michalczewski?

[HoldMyBeer]

On the "world stage"? Despite never beating the man who had already unified 3 out of 4 belts?

Interesting choice of word, "world stage".



:lol:

don't start using emotes as a defence - that's always the beginning of the end of objectivity. just be honest.

like i've said several times before, someone isn't necessarily 'the man' because he has a belt.
both hopkins and jones had notoriety, and because they fought on the biggest stage of all that meant they were always targets for other top fighters.

'world stage' isn't a term, it's a truth depending on the fighter and how realistic it was for any other top fighter to legitimately challenge him.

when people talk about fighters 'ducking' others, you'll always notice it's the highest profile fighter who apparently does the 'ducking'...

there's nothing wrong with being british if you can back up your point of view by the way. i'm only challenging it.

[Rumsfeld]

And dropped two of them to avoid fighting the likes of David telesco and William Guthrie.

And then turning down multiple offers from Jones camp with excuses like "We don't take offers from faxes".

I can't believe how far off you are on this one......

Wait, have you been hanging out with Farmboxer?:D



You are assuming I blame Jones and Jones alone for that fight not happening. Not so.

I place blame on both fighters EQUALLY.

However, I maintain that both of their legacies suffer since they never squared off as they damn well should have!

It is simply inexplicable that these two never fought. They both ought to be embarrassed.

[lolb]

1. Jones
2. Hopkins
3. Toney (could have been above Hopkins if the Ruiz win had counted)


4. Calzaghe (I'm a big fan but his resume doesn't back up his ability)

[Rumsfeld]

don't start using emotes as a defence - that's always the beginning of the end of objectivity. just be honest.

like i've said several times before, someone isn't necessarily 'the man' because he has a belt.
both hopkins and jones had notoriety, and because they fought on the biggest stage of all that meant they were always targets for other top fighters.

'world stage' isn't a term, it's a truth depending on the fighter and how realistic it was for any other top fighter to legitimately challenge him.

when people talk about fighters 'ducking' others, you'll always notice it's the highest profile fighter who apparently does the 'ducking'...

there's nothing wrong with being british if you can back up your point of view by the way. i'm only challenging it.

I'm not British!

:rofl:rofl:rofl

[keith]

I'm not British!

:rofl:rofl:rofl


Well 7 out of the 40 repsondents agree with you........


Keith

[HoldMyBeer]

I'm not British!

:rofl:rofl:rofl

it doesn't matter if you are or not.
but i hear judgements for jones but no defence for calzaghe being above him still...

[Rumsfeld]

Well 7 out of the 40 repsondents agree with you........



About the same ratio agreed with me when I said Ward would outclass Kessler.

Regardless, you never answered my question:

Do you think RJJ's legacy was hurt by not fighting Michalczewski?

[Rumsfeld]

it doesn't matter if you are or not.
but i hear judgements for jones but no defence for calzaghe being above him still...

You could make a case for Jones being ahead of Calzaghe.

I already noted that Calzaghe had a more dominant reign and his keynote division. Subsequently, he moved up to win the lineal title in another weight class and he retired undefeated.

How many divisions was Jones linear championship?

[HoldMyBeer]

About the same ratio agreed with me when I said Ward would outclass Kessler.

Regardless, you never answered my question:

Do you think RJJ's legacy was hurt by not fighting Michalczewski?

no it's the other way around.
it would have been great if they fought, but if you want to fight the man you go and earn it - you don't sit in europe saying you got 'ducked' (which is what usually ends up being said).

why should jones give a free ticket to a fighter who never wanted to be known in the US and that's why he never got a jones fight?

[keith]

Not true, and I would like to believe my surveys prove it.

Two active fighters finished top ten all time in the original 8 weight classes (with two to go).

Hopkins finished as the #5 middleweight of all-time (which was exactly where I had him on my list).

Pacquiao was #9 on the featherweight list (which I disagree with because Pacquiao had just four fights in the weight class--I think some people were infected with "Pac Man Fever" given that survey was held around the time Pacquiao defeated Cotto).

If memory serves, Jones finished #11 on the all-time light heavy survey (which I found to be overly generous, considering the rich history of this celebrated weight class).

Are you saying you would put Jones in your top 10 all time for light heavy?

Do you disagree that Hopkins belongs in the top 5 all time fr middle?

More imprtantly, let's take this one point:

Do you think Jones' legacy suffers that he never fought Michalczewski?



Statistically, with 80 fighters getting ranked 8-10 should be in the list not two.

Jones would DEFINITELY be in my top 10 lt heavies. He was the man at the division for 7 years. He would be around 4 or 5.

I agree that Hopkins would be around 5 at middle.

I don't think Jones legacy suffers really at all for not fighting DM. He tried to make the fight happen, they guy wouldn't do it outside of Germany, and Jones beat the same competition in a much more dominating fashion. There is very little doubt Dm would have been able to beat Jones as Jones had him beat in every category. Speed, defense, punch assortment, stamina, and even POWER.


And the endo of Jones career is no worse than a lot of great fighter. Ezzard Charles had a much more humiliating end to his career than Jones is having. I don't hold a fighter fighting way past his prime against them.


And still in the end, even though you refuse to acknowledge it, Jones beat Hopkins, and beat him convincingly.


Keith

[HoldMyBeer]

You could make a case for Jones being ahead of Calzaghe.

I already noted that Calzaghe had a more dominant reign and his keynote division. Subsequently, he moved up to win the lineal title in another weight class and he retired undefeated.

How many divisions was Jones linear championship?

let me repeat what i've said a few times already today :

a fighter is judged by WHO he fought and WHEN.
it's that simple.

titles and the term 'undefeated' are cheapened in boxing and don't mean the same as other sports for reasons you should already know.

[Rumsfeld]

no it's the other way around.
it would have been great if they fought, but if you want to fight the man you go and earn it - you don't sit in europe saying you got 'ducked' (which is what usually ends up being said).

why should jones give a free ticket to a fighter who never wanted to be known in the US and that's why he never got a jones fight?

This is bullshit.

I have already maintained it hurt the legacy of BOTH fighters (it did). Could you imagine if Ali and Frazier had never fought?

There can be no doubt that not having this fight hurt their legacies.

Furthermore, Michalczewski was the established champion at 175, not Jones. Jones never beat the man.

:smoke

[keith]

You could make a case for Jones being ahead of Calzaghe.

I already noted that Calzaghe had a more dominant reign and his keynote division. Subsequently, he moved up to win the lineal title in another weight class and he retired undefeated.

How many divisions was Jones linear championship?

If you count Calzaghe as the lineal champion at lt heavy, you have to count Jones as well.


Beside the "lineal" title card is the biggest bullshit agrument int he boxing game right now.



Keith

[HoldMyBeer]

This is bullshit.

I have already maintained it hurt the legacy of BOTH fighters (it did). Could you imagine if Ali and Frazier had never fought?

There can be no doubt that not having this fight hurt their legacies.

Furthermore, Michalczewski was the established champion at 175, not Jones. Jones never beat the man.

:smoke

again, you're talking about a fighter who kept a distance from mainstream boxing by never being known overseas.

ali and frazier didn't have the variable of one of them keeping himself on the outer by staying out of the limelight.

[Rumsfeld]

And still in the end, even though you refuse to acknowledge it, Jones beat Hopkins, and beat him convincingly.



I had it 116-112 in one of the most boring fights ever.

Hopkins will even the score come April, and future historians judge this as an important fight in terms of legacy, even if it shouldn't be viewed as such.

[keith]

This is bullshit.

I have already maintained it hurt the legacy of BOTH fighters (it did). Could you imagine if Ali and Frazier had never fought?

There can be no doubt that not having this fight hurt their legacies.

Furthermore, Michalczewski was the established champion at 175, not Jones. Jones never beat the man.

:smoke

Dm was the man for about a month. then he started dumping belts to fight bums. If that's your idea of "the man" so be it. Besides Jones was lt heavy champ BEFORE Dm ever won a major title.

Keith

[HoldMyBeer]

I had it 116-112 in one of the most boring fights ever.

Hopkins will even the score come April, and future historians judge this as an important fight in terms of legacy, even if it shouldn't be viewed as such.

historians do not judge this as an important fight in terms of legacy - stop putting words in people's mouths.

[Rumsfeld]

Dm was the man for about a month. then he started dumping belts to fight bums. If that's your idea of "the man" so be it. Besides Jones was lt heavy champ BEFORE Dm ever won a major title.


Bullshit!

When Jones made the jump to 175 pounds in November 1996 to challenge WBC champion Mike McCallum, Michalczewski had already been a champion in that division for over two years. When Michalczewsi decisively beat Virgil Hill June 1997, he had successfully unified the WBA, WBO, and IBF belts, clearly marking him as the division’s top dog. Two months later, when Jones avenged his disqualification loss against Montell Griffin, he emerged as the number one challenger.

Both men reigned as champions together for SIX YEARS--and they NEVER FOUGHT!

:lol:

How can any reasonable observer POSSIBLY state that legacies were not harmed on both ends?

As for dumping titles, more bullshit.

The moment he beat Hill, he was stripped by the WBA for the sin of holding the WBO title, and in a disgraceful act of politics, the IBF inexplciably demanded that he defend his title within 30 days of beating Hill.

Those are the facts.

:smoke

[Rumsfeld]

historians do not judge this as an important fight in terms of legacy - stop putting words in people's mouths.

It needn't be judged as important to be historically significant.

Regardless, 20 years from now I believe this fight will be given more weight than it deserves. Like it or not, Jones' and Hopkins' careers have been linked for almost 20 years.

[keith]

Bullshit!

When Jones made the jump to 175 pounds in November 1996 to challenge WBC champion Mike McCallum, Michalczewski had already been a champion in that division for over two years. When Michalczewsi decisively beat Virgil Hill June 1997, he had successfully unified the WBA, WBO, and IBF belts, clearly marking him as the division’s top dog. Two months later, when Jones avenged his disqualification loss against Montell Griffin, he emerged as the number one challenger.

Both men reigned as champions together for SIX YEARS--and they NEVER FOUGHT!

:lol:

How can any reasonable observer POSSIBLY state that legacies were not harmed on both ends?

As for dumping titles, more bullshit.

The moment he beat Hill, he was stripped by the WBA for the sin of holding the WBO title, and in a disgraceful act of politics, the IBF inexplciably demanded that he defend his title within 30 days of beating Hill.

Those are the facts.

:smoke


He had the WBo belt, which wasn't even recognized by anything other than the WBO. Thus no major title. Jones being the best fighter inthe division had the WBC belt.

Dm then beat Hill, refused to pay any title fees to the WBA and was stripped. Dm was supposed to fight the winner of Eddy Smulders and Lou Del Valle, a fight that was taking place in Aachen Germany, in order to hype them up as DM's next opponent. Dm want no part of that and gave up the belt. Del Valle and Smulders fought that September for the vacant title instead of an eliminator fight.

All Dm had to do was sign to fight Guthrie and he would have had en extension. But you see, Guthrie was knocking fools out at the time. So Dm dropped that one too.

20 years from now, only complete losers will be talking about Dm. Jones went on to work Hill far worse than Dm did, and clean out the division while Dm was regulated to fighting Jones leftovers and once beatens. Eventually losing his title to a guy Jones whitewashed a year previously.

Jones legacy is not hurt anymore than not fighting William Guthrie. Dm wanted no part of it, dumped belts and made a good living fighting in Germany. It was a great business move on Dm's part, but it doesn't affect Jones in the least. As you might have notices, every magazine website and publication had Jones NUMBER ONE in the division and Pound for Pound.

You are on a small island with only Dm fans with you on this one.

Good night.


Keith

[keith]

It needn't be judged as important to be historically significant.

Regardless, 20 years from now I believe this fight will be given more weight than it deserves. Like it or not, Jones' and Hopkins' careers have been linked for almost 20 years.
And in 20 years no one will give two squirts of piss that Jones didn't get it on with a WBO belt holder.


Keith

[Brit Sillynanny]

He had the WBo belt, which wasn't even recognized by anything other than the WBO. Thus no major title. Jones being the best fighter inthe division had the WBC belt.

Dm then beat Hill, refused to pay any title fees to the WBA and was stripped. Dm was supposed to fight the winner of Eddy Smulders and Lou Del Valle, a fight that was taking place in Aachen Germany, in order to hype them up as DM's next opponent. Dm want no part of that and gave up the belt. Del Valle and Smulders fought that September for the vacant title instead of an eliminator fight.

All Dm had to do was sign to fight Guthrie and he would have had en extension. But you see, Guthrie was knocking fools out at the time. So Dm dropped that one too.

20 years from now, only complete losers will be talking about Dm. Jones went on to work Hill far worse than Dm did, and clean out the division while Dm was regulated to fighting Jones leftovers and once beatens. Eventually losing his title to a guy Jones whitewashed a year previously.

Jones legacy is not hurt anymore than not fighting William Guthrie. Dm wanted no part of it, dumped belts and made a good living fighting in Germany. It was a great business move on Dm's part, but it doesn't affect Jones in the least. As you might have notices, every magazine website and publication had Jones NUMBER ONE in the division and Pound for Pound.

You are on a small island with only Dm fans with you on this one.

Good night.



Keith

All good posts.


Too bad they were made to a fucking idiot ... the number of crap non-athletes on ESB that can't differentiate good from great but like to post about boxing is unparalleled - land of the dumbasses.

[bailey]

every win hopkins has is by UD or KO. only bitches like calzaghe find false victories in SDs.
Hopkins also has losses by split, & UD, also and a draw with Mercado, and alot of his big wins (not all) were against smaller opposition

[OBCboxer]

Well F***ING Said!!!!!:good

Thank You. :good

[darealchamp23]

Jones will be ranked first. He had the better skills and he beat both Hopkins and Toney.

Second place would belong to Hopkins.

[gooners!!]

Said it before i will say it again, i dont think Joe Calzaghe is technically good enough to beat either of them.

Can you imagine Calzaghe squaring himself up and swinging for the fences against Toney,Jones,Hopkins the way he did against Mitchell? Joe was dropped in both fights with Jones & Hopkins and got nailed with the right hook/hand throughout his career, even Kessler managed to nail him good with uppercuts coming in.

I just dont think Joe Calzaghe can beat a technically sound elite fighter in their prime!, Joe Calzaghe never fought a diverse amount of styles in his career either imo.

[Atlanta]

1. Bernard Hopkins- Longest Reigning Middleweight Champion and former Light Heavyweight Champion and won the Middleweight Championship Series. 3 out of his 5 losses are pretty questionable(I had him winning both Taylor fights and the Calzaghe fight I had him winning 114-113). Notable Victories: Felix Trinidad, Antonio Tarver, Kelly Pavlik, Glen Johnson

2. Roy Jones Jr.- I am willing to switch this with Bernard Hopkins, captured belts in 4 weight classes and amassed 51 victories before his first (legit) defeat against Antonio Tarver. He was the undisputed (lineal?, better than Erdei that record padding putz) Light Heavyweight Champion where he unified the WBC, WBA, IBF, WBF, IBO, IBA, and NBA titles. Notable Victories: John Ruiz(Heavyweight Title), Antonio Tarver, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney

3. Joe Calzaghe- Longest reigning Super Middleweight Champion and former Light Heavyweight Champion. He retired with a 43-0 record. He is lucky to be in this company and I wouldn't have much problem kicking him to 4, but he did beat the two guys at the top of the list though both were past their primes by about 9 years. Notable Victories: Jeff Lacy, Mikkel Kessler, Roy Jones Jr., Bernard Hopkins

4. James Toney- This guy is as old school as they got, he has won 72 fights. Toney is a strage case as he won the Middleweight, Super Middleweight, and Cruiserweight IBF titles, but lost some fights he shouldn't have and had his Heavyweight title win over John Ruiz taken away for taking PEDs. Toney did lose to Roy Jones in a IBF Super Middleweight Title Defense. Notable Wins: Visaly Jirov(Crusierweight Title), Michael Nunn, Reggie Johnson, Rydell Booker.

[RealBoxing]

As it stands:

Jones
Hopkins
Toney
Calzaghe


Depends how you feel about this unbeatable fighters taking steroids to win really coz it could well be:

Hopkins
Calzaghe
Jones
Toney





:good

[bodhi]

Who will be higher at the ATG list, assuming they all will be on it?

I think Hopkins surpassed Jones with his win over Pavlik but I wouldn't argue with people having Jones higher. Those two are interchangable and clearly above the other two. Well, Toney has the better wins but also some embarassing losses Joe C. doesn't have. About equal too with a slight edge to James.

[randeris]

Jones

[cilldara11]

It's tough trying to put these guys in order. You could really make a case for all these guys being number for all different reasons. Though I find it hard to see how anyone would put Calzaghe in the number 1 spot, yes he never lost. Though during his prime he fought nobodies from 97-06, and only after the last couple years has he fought good competition.

I think Jones or Hopkins are good choices for number 1 imo. Hopkins for standing the test of time, being a top fighter and champ since 93. Jones for being one of the most talented and unbeatable middleweight in his prime.

I pretty much agree with this. A 168 pound 'super 4' tournament in all their respective primes would have been something to behold.

[bodhi]

All good posts.


Too bad they were made to a fucking idiot ... the number of crap non-athletes on ESB that can't differentiate good from great but like to post about boxing is unparalleled - land of the dumbasses.


No it's pretty much bullshit. DM was stripped of the WBA belt because the WBA didn't want to have anything to to with the WBO. And wih he IBF because they wnated him to defend the title in 30 days after winning it.
Fact is Jones just won titles other men got stripped of. You can' be the champ when you don't beat the champ.

[dangerousity]

There is not one fighter Hopkins beat that Joe couldn't have done the same too and I don't believe Calzaghe-Taylor would be close enough for Joe to be robbed. Defeating Kessler would cement my view, losing to Kessler means he drops to 3rd.


coulda, woulda, shoulda :deal

Blame Joe!

[keith]

No it's pretty much bullshit. DM was stripped of the WBA belt because the WBA didn't want to have anything to to with the WBO. And wih he IBF because they wnated him to defend the title in 30 days after winning it.
Fact is Jones just won titles other men got stripped of. You can' be the champ when you don't beat the champ.


Just stop and think about the what you just posted.

The WBA wants NOTHING to do with the WBO champion so it sanctions a fight with the WBO champion???

How does that make sense?

It doesn't.

DM had a choice between William Guthrie, the winner of Del Valle and Smulders or I believe Nicky Piper.

He chose Nicky Piper.

So yeah, you can be the champ, when the other guy won't fight anyone in the top ten. He loses the right to call himself champ at that point.


All of your excuses for why DM fought Jones leftovers are that, excuses.

No one considers Dm an all time great. EVERYONE who has even an inkling of unbiased boxing knowledge considers Jones to be on.

END OF STORY.


Keith