ALI in Place of LOUIS from1937 to1949

[mcvey]

Replace Louis with Ali for The Bombers title reign.
What changes do you see?
Ali defends against the same opponents,whatresults would change?
Would Ali be unbeaten?
Which wins do you think would be more emphatic?
Which fights would be harder?
Which easier?

[garymcfall]

I think he could be unbeaten here, he'd be bigger, faster and stronger than most of the heavyweights and the quality wouldnt be there to trouble him. I dont think there was an effective pressure fighter as good as Frazier to trouble him. BUT he wouldnt have as good a legacy because of this.

[McGrain]

Good question!

Green Ali v Schmeling would be very interesting. VERY interesting, but I would pick green Ali to win it nontheless.

The Max Baer fight would be harder for him. Baer would be a live wire the entire time he was in there - the later rounds v Baer would be the cricial ones for Ali I feel, and there'd probably be a rematch to boot. It's possible that Baer could beat a young Ali I feel, he could be Ali's Schmeling, if you see what I mean. There might even be a trilogy.

Braddock would be easier for Ali and he might actually do the near impossible and force Braddock to quit.

The Conn fight wouldn't happen. What would be the point, he would have literally no chance.

Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.

These are the thoughts that first occur to me.

[garymcfall]

Remember as well that we may have seen Ali in his prime years in this instance as well, maybe he would be a mix of young and old ali, the speed reflexes of young ali and the ring smarts of the older version. I think he would beat everyone in Louis era.

[McGrain]

Remember as well that we may have seen Ali in his prime years in this instance as well, maybe he would be a mix of young and old ali, the speed reflexes of young ali and the ring smarts of the older version. I think he would beat everyone in Louis era.


You don't see him serving in WW2?

Also, if he was knocked down by Cooper as a green fighter, it's possible that Baer could spark him.

[mcvey]

Good question!

Green Ali v Schmeling would be very interesting. VERY interesting, but I would pick green Ali to win it nontheless.

The Max Baer fight would be harder for him. Baer would be a live wire the entire time he was in there - the later rounds v Baer would be the cricial ones for Ali I feel, and there'd probably be a rematch to boot. It's possible that Baer could beat a young Ali I feel, he could be Ali's Schmeling, if you see what I mean. There might even be a trilogy.

Braddock would be easier for Ali and he might actually do the near impossible and force Braddock to quit.

The Conn fight wouldn't happen. What would be the point, he would have literally no chance.

Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.

These are the thoughts that first occur to me.
The Baer fight might be especially interesting ,my first thoughts are that the crude Baer is badly outboxed by Ali,as he was by Braddock,but as Ali lacked Louis,s power,Baer might be much more confident going in and not freeze as he did against Joe,that said Ali had a chin on a par with Max,s and didnt get caught with too many right hands ,he was past it when Shavers tagged him.I havent thought about the outcomes to the defenses ,just posted hoping for feed back.

[NickHudson]

Why the dismissal of Conn. He was small, tough, fast and white - Ali's worst nightmare...

Good question!

Green Ali v Schmeling would be very interesting. VERY interesting, but I would pick green Ali to win it nontheless.

The Max Baer fight would be harder for him. Baer would be a live wire the entire time he was in there - the later rounds v Baer would be the cricial ones for Ali I feel, and there'd probably be a rematch to boot. It's possible that Baer could beat a young Ali I feel, he could be Ali's Schmeling, if you see what I mean. There might even be a trilogy.

Braddock would be easier for Ali and he might actually do the near impossible and force Braddock to quit.

The Conn fight wouldn't happen. What would be the point, he would have literally no chance.

Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.

These are the thoughts that first occur to me.

[McGrain]

Why the dismissal of Conn. He was small, tough, fast and white - Ali's worst nightmare...

He's using speed and ring generalship to outbox Louis. Ali destroys a 170lb man using these techniques, because he is also very fast and smart. I don't see Conn lasting more than six rounds with Ali.

[garymcfall]

You don't see him serving in WW2?

Also, if he was knocked down by Cooper as a green fighter, it's possible that Baer could spark him.

depending on when he was called up, i said we MAY have seen some of his prime.

[thunder06]

You don't see him serving in WW2?

This is an interesting question. WWII was a much different war than Vietnam and the NOI wasn't nearly as big if it was even around in the 1940s so Ali (or perhaps Clay, if he fought in Louis's time) probably wouldn't have become a muslim and his actions wouldn't be influenced by the NOI. I believe he would have done the same thing Louis did and put of exhibitions for the troops. But would White America accept him? Louis was as humble as possible and we know Ali wouldnt act that way. Anyway, back to the original question, the Ali-Baer prefight buildup would be highly entertaining and the fight would be a mismatch with Ali winning a UD.

[McGrain]

depending on when he was called up, i said we MAY have seen some of his prime.


Given that they missed out on similair amounts of their careers and we're appraising the fighter we know, it seems sensible to presume things would work out the same way they did for Louis, and the lost years are approx. the same as those he lost in the 70's.

[Mike South]

Replace Louis with Ali for The Bombers title reign.
What changes do you see?
Ali defends against the same opponents,whatresults would change?
Would Ali be unbeaten?
Which wins do you think would be more emphatic?
Which fights would be harder?
Which easier?

Ali would spend the Carnera fight dancing around the ring and the mob would meet him in his dressing room and take him for a ride, never to be seen or heard from again. In those days fighters were expected to fight, not run.

[Mike South]

Replace Louis with Ali for The Bombers title reign.
What changes do you see?
Ali defends against the same opponents,whatresults would change?
Would Ali be unbeaten?
Which wins do you think would be more emphatic?
Which fights would be harder?
Which easier?

Ali would spend the Carnera fight dancing around the ring and the mob would meet him in his dressing room and take him for a ride, never to be seen or heard from again. In those days fighters were expected to fight, not run.

The other possibilty is that Ali would never get a shot at Carnera or anyone else because of his mouth and the fear of another Jack Johnson.

[Mike South]

Sorry about the double post.

[OLD FOGEY]

Ali would spend the Carnera fight dancing around the ring and the mob would meet him in his dressing room and take him for a ride, never to be seen or heard from again. In those days fighters were expected to fight, not run.

The other possibilty is that Ali would never get a shot at Carnera or anyone else because of his mouth and the fear of another Jack Johnson.

You have a very good point on the fight and not run part. Ali would
have to fight differently to get decisions in the 1934 to 1951 era.
He would have to come down off his toes and fight more or he would
lose a great many decisions.
Also, if he tried to fight the way he did in the sixties, would he even
have gotten a chance. I think not.
And it is an open question how a great many close decisions would
have gone if he would have used jab and run or rope-a-dope
strategies in that era. Louis went for knockouts because he didn't
want to take fights to the white judges against white opponents any
more than absolutely necessary.

I think Ali in that era would have been a heavyweight Charley Burley.

[McGrain]

I think Ali in that era would have been a heavyweight Charley Burley.

Interesting.

Though I think it's fair to say, just as was the case with Burley, representation would be the crucial point.

[Dempsey1238]

Even if Ali did not serve the WW2, Ali would go to prison. EITHER way, Ali STILL loses his prime years as Louis and Ali did in real life.

[cross_trainer]

Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another. The smaller gloves would inflict a bit more damage as well in the long term. Somebody is bound to get to him eventually.

[Hank]

Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another. The smaller gloves would inflict a bit more damage as well in the long term. Somebody is bound to get to him eventually.

Definatley. And although Ali has to be ranked higer due to accomplishments, in a head to head fight Walcott would beat him.

[C. M. Clay II]

Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another. The smaller gloves would inflict a bit more damage as well in the long term. Somebody is bound to get to him eventually.

Ali fought 5 times in '66 and handled it well. I'm sure he could handle the schedule.:good

[McGrain]

Assuming Ali gets the same opposition Louis does in the same order, he would get worn down faster by the hectic schedule and sheer volume of good contenders that Louis faced one after another.


Why do you say that? I wouldn't have said that Ali was less athletic, had less stamina, or less will.

Is it because you feel that he may have to fight more rounds? Because I feel that though this may be true, he would probably get hit less.

[Bummy Davis]

The Baer's,Conn,Godoy,Schmeling,Farr, would all be able to give Ali trouble, none of them were slow ponderous heavyweights that Ali enjoyed fighting, IMO Norton would not be able to last with Max Baer or Schmeling and Frazier would be in danger, Ali would be troubled with Conns speed but Also the 2 Max's had power and speed (not easy fights for Ali, lets face it Cooper had Ali hurt, Frazier had him down and the reason is because the could execute a punch with speed, Ali would get hit by these guys

[janitor]

The crucial factor that people are not taking into acount is the speed with which Louis was moved along.

6 months into his profesional career Louis is knocking over ranked contenders while Ali is fighting mostly tomato cans at this stage.

14 months into his profesional career Louis was fighting Max Baer. Ali was getting droped by Sony Banks 16 months into his career.

Less than two years into his profesional career he is fighting Max Schmeling. Ali has been fighting profesionaly for two and a half years when he has a close call against Doug Jones.

Is Ali going to be ready for the same oponents in the same time frame?

[McGrain]

14 months into his profesional career Louis was fighting Max Baer. Ali was getting droped by Sony Banks 16 months into his career.

Less than two years into his profesional career he is fighting Max Schmeling.

Is Ali going to be ready for the same oponents in the same time frame?


I have touched upon some of this already and I agree that it's the crucial point - I actually think young Ali (or Clay as he probably would have been throughout his career if he was fighting at that time!) would be OK with Schmeling because of the type of fighter he was.

Baer. Baer would be the one.

[janitor]

I have touched upon some of this already and I agree that it's the crucial point - I actually think young Ali (or Clay as he probably would have been throughout his career if he was fighting at that time!) would be OK with Schmeling because of the type of fighter he was.

Baer. Baer would be the one.

He might run into trouble long before he faced the Baers and Schmelings of the division.

Is he going to be ready for Stanley Poreda or Patsy Peroni after four months?

[McGrain]

Is he going to be ready for Stanley Poreda or Patsy Peroni after four months?


I haven't seen either of these guys fight so I can't comment specifically. But I do think that what he has naturally can't be underestimated.

[cross_trainer]

Why do you say that? I wouldn't have said that Ali was less athletic, had less stamina, or less will.

Is it because you feel that he may have to fight more rounds? Because I feel that though this may be true, he would probably get hit less.

I say this because nobody, not even Ali, faced the sheer volume and frequency of contenders that Louis did over a sustained period and did so with consistency. In his own time, Ali dropped at least one and possibly two or three decisions to Ken Norton, who was not an amazing fighter outside of beating Ali. He also lost to Frazier, and arguably dropped at least one more during his second title reign.

I know that Louis could handle that kind of sustained, consistent workload because he already did it. Ali could be inconsistent. There's no question that he would be dominant in his prime, but it's unlikely that the 1970's are the only era that contain fighters who can defeat him.

Here's a timeline charting his actual decline in "our world" compared to his schedule in Louis's.

1934 = 1960
1934--12 opponents
1960--2 opponents of much lower quality

1935 = 1961
1935--15 opponents, including Baer, Carnera, Uzcudun,
1961--8 opponents of much lower quality

1936 = 1962
1936--6 opponents including Schmeling, Sharkey
1962--6 opponents including Banks, Lavorante and Moore

1937 = 1963

1937--5 fights, including a title shot
1963--3 fights, mostly against top contenders (as above)

1938 = 1964

1938--3 title defenses, including Schmeling
1964--title fight against Sonny Liston

1939 = 1965

1939--4 title fights
1965--Liston and Patterson (bad back)

1940 = 1966

1940--4 title defenses
1966--5 title defenses

1941 = 1967

1941--7 title defenses
1967--2 title defenses

1942 = 1968

1942--2 title defenses, off to war
1968--no title defenses, exiled

1943 = 1969

1943--off to war
1969--in exile

1944 = 1970

1944--1 title defense (very bad)
1970--2 fights

1945 = 1971

1945--off to war
1971--3 fights and FOTC

1946 = 1972

1946--2 title fights
1972--6 fights

1947 = 1973

1947--Walcott
1973--4 fights, including Norton twice

1948 = 1974

1948--Walcott
1974--Foreman, Frazier again (not nearly as good one)

1949 = 1975

1949--retired
1975--4 defenses

1950 = 1976

1950--Charles, 1 other
1976--4, including Norton and Young

1951 = 1977

1951--8 fights, including Marciano
1977--2 fights

1952 = 1978

1952--retired
1978--Spinks twice

1953 = 1979

Both careers are pretty much done.



Ali would face a lot more trouble early, particularly in the first few fights of his career. Given that Ali had a few problems as late as Cooper, and with the high early level of opposition he would have to face, I can see him dropping at least one at this stage of his career.

Louis had a harder and more filled title reign up until their respective exiles. It's conceivable that Ali would drop one here, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. They may have roughly equivalent attrition by 1946...Ali would have probably been comparable to his 1972 or 1973 version that dropped a decision to Norton, and I can see him losing one to Walcott out of their two fights. He would have been more preserved in 1950 when he came back to face Charles, but would still have been roughly at 1974 or 1975 standards...where he could lose to Charles. And Louis's consistency against top contenders in 1951 was superior to what Ali mustered in the late 1970's, so I don't see Ali getting close enough to the title from that point on.

The two have pretty parallel careers, actually.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali would have a problem with Walcotts hook

[OLD FOGEY]

I say this because nobody, not even Ali, faced the sheer volume and frequency of contenders that Louis did over a sustained period and did so with consistency. In his own time, Ali dropped at least one and possibly two or three decisions to Ken Norton, who was not an amazing fighter outside of beating Ali. He also lost to Frazier, and arguably dropped at least one more during his second title reign.

I know that Louis could handle that kind of sustained, consistent workload because he already did it. Ali could be inconsistent. There's no question that he would be dominant in his prime, but it's unlikely that the 1970's are the only era that contain fighters who can defeat him.

Here's a timeline charting his actual decline in "our world" compared to his schedule in Louis's.

1934 = 1960
1934--12 opponents
1960--2 opponents of much lower quality

1935 = 1961
1935--15 opponents, including Baer, Carnera, Uzcudun,
1961--8 opponents of much lower quality

1936 = 1962
1936--6 opponents including Schmeling, Sharkey
1962--6 opponents including Banks, Lavorante and Moore

1937 = 1963

1937--5 fights, including a title shot
1963--3 fights, mostly against top contenders (as above)

1938 = 1964

1938--3 title defenses, including Schmeling
1964--title fight against Sonny Liston

1939 = 1965

1939--4 title fights
1965--Liston and Patterson (bad back)

1940 = 1966

1940--4 title defenses
1966--5 title defenses

1941 = 1967

1941--7 title defenses
1967--2 title defenses

1942 = 1968

1942--2 title defenses, off to war
1968--no title defenses, exiled

1943 = 1969

1943--off to war
1969--in exile

1944 = 1970

1944--1 title defense (very bad)
1970--2 fights

1945 = 1971

1945--off to war
1971--3 fights and FOTC

1946 = 1972

1946--2 title fights
1972--6 fights

1947 = 1973

1947--Walcott
1973--4 fights, including Norton twice

1948 = 1974

1948--Walcott
1974--Foreman, Frazier again (not nearly as good one)

1949 = 1975

1949--retired
1975--4 defenses

1950 = 1976

1950--Charles, 1 other
1976--4, including Norton and Young

1951 = 1977

1951--8 fights, including Marciano
1977--2 fights

1952 = 1978

1952--retired
1978--Spinks twice

1953 = 1979

Both careers are pretty much done.



Ali would face a lot more trouble early, particularly in the first few fights of his career. Given that Ali had a few problems as late as Cooper, and with the high early level of opposition he would have to face, I can see him dropping at least one at this stage of his career.

Louis had a harder and more filled title reign up until their respective exiles. It's conceivable that Ali would drop one here, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt. They may have roughly equivalent attrition by 1946...Ali would have probably been comparable to his 1972 or 1973 version that dropped a decision to Norton, and I can see him losing one to Walcott out of their two fights. He would have been more preserved in 1950 when he came back to face Charles, but would still have been roughly at 1974 or 1975 standards...where he could lose to Charles. And Louis's consistency against top contenders in 1951 was superior to what Ali mustered in the late 1970's, so I don't see Ali getting close enough to the title from that point on.

The two have pretty parallel careers, actually.


Excellent post--except for accepting boxrec's insane idea that the
exhibition against Johnny Davis in 1944 was a title defense. No one,
and I mean no one, thought so at the time. It was never listed by
Nat Fleischer in any Ring Record Book nor referred to at all, let
alone as a title defense, in the over sixty years since the bout. How
many sources have listed 25 title defenses by Louis as the record?
Nor was it thought of as a title defense at the time:

New York Times November 11, 1944

"Sergeant Joe Louis, World Heavyweight Champion on furlough from the
army after overseas service, yesterday recieved permission from the
State Athletic Commission to engage in an exhibition bout as part of
his current tour. The exhibition will be against Johnny Davis,
Brooklynite, in Buffalo on Tuesday night."

Louis fought an exhibition the night before fighting Davis in another
city, and fought an exhibition the night after. There was nothing
different about the Davis fight, which would never have been
sanctioned as a title defense.

That boxrec would stumble into such a grotesque mistake brings into
question their reliability on any bout at all. The most famous fighter
in the world does not have a title defense which goes so far under
the radar that Ring Magazine did not notice it. The same holds true
for the "defense" by Dempsey that they dug up.

[groove]

Ali beat Liston x2 Patterson x2 Fraizer x2 Norton x2 Foreman x1.

Ali would have no trouble with Louis opposition. None of them are as good as the fighters Ali beat. Henry Cooper would do very well in Louis era.

[Bummy Davis]

Ali beat Liston x2 Patterson x2 Fraizer x2 Norton x2 Foreman x1.

Ali would have no trouble with Louis opposition. None of them are as good as the fighters Ali beat. Henry Cooper would do very well in Louis era.


He would do well getting KO'd, Patterson knocked Cooper out cold in 4 rounds and he dominated Henry, Cooper would have been Ko'd by Baer,Schmeling,Walcott,Charles,Conn,Godoy,Buddy Baer,Galento,Farr,Carnera,Sharkey, and beaten by Braddock tko cuts

[McGrain]

I say this because nobody, not even Ali, faced the sheer volume and frequency of contenders that Louis did over a sustained period and did so with consistency

Quite right. But this thread is about what Ali could do in place of Louis, rather than what he did do in his own era. Ali's (relative) inactivity doesn't mean to say that this consumate athlete would have been broken down under the Louis regime, though I will say it's reasonable to suggest.



I know that Louis could handle that kind of sustained, consistent workload because he already did it. Ali could be inconsistent. There's no question that he would be dominant in his prime, but it's unlikely that the 1970's are the only era that contain fighters who can defeat him.

I quite agree with you, but i'd suggest that the only fighter in Louis' era that would be likely to beat Ali would be Louis. I don't go in for all that Bum Of The Month BS, but i'm satisfied that the cream of Ali's era was better than the cream of Louis' era.

In the case of Frazier I am satisfied that he was up against The Guy, as far as Ali himself was concerned, though the Norton case is more interesting. As to whether or not Ali could survive under the Louis regime, I would agree that it's possible he would fail but I would specualte that he would be able to do it.

Here's a timeline charting his actual decline in "our world" compared to his schedule in Louis's.

1934 = 1960
1934--12 opponents
1960--2 opponents of much lower quality

1935 = 1961
1935--15 opponents, including Baer, Carnera, Uzcudun,
1961--8 opponents of much lower quality

1936 = 1962
1936--6 opponents including Schmeling, Sharkey
1962--6 opponents including Banks, Lavorante and Moore

1937 = 1963

1937--5 fights, including a title shot
1963--3 fights, mostly against top contenders (as above)

1938 = 1964

1938--3 title defenses, including Schmeling
1964--title fight against Sonny Liston

1939 = 1965

1939--4 title fights
1965--Liston and Patterson (bad back)

1940 = 1966

1940--4 title defenses
1966--5 title defenses

1941 = 1967

1941--7 title defenses
1967--2 title defenses

1942 = 1968

1942--2 title defenses, off to war
1968--no title defenses, exiled

1943 = 1969

1943--off to war
1969--in exile

1944 = 1970

1944--1 title defense (very bad)
1970--2 fights

1945 = 1971

1945--off to war
1971--3 fights and FOTC

1946 = 1972

1946--2 title fights
1972--6 fights

1947 = 1973

1947--Walcott
1973--4 fights, including Norton twice

1948 = 1974

1948--Walcott
1974--Foreman, Frazier again (not nearly as good one)

1949 = 1975

1949--retired
1975--4 defenses

1950 = 1976

1950--Charles, 1 other
1976--4, including Norton and Young

1951 = 1977

1951--8 fights, including Marciano
1977--2 fights

1952 = 1978

1952--retired
1978--Spinks twice

1953 = 1979

Both careers are pretty much done.

Absolutley beautifully done. This is the kind of thing I am writing down this time incase we have another crash.



Ali would face a lot more trouble early, particularly in the first few fights of his career. Given that Ali had a few problems as late as Cooper, and with the high early level of opposition he would have to face, I can see him dropping at least one at this stage of his career.

I think that Ali would fight differently if he was coming up against quality opponents that early. Ali clowned like Baer clowned, but he had more high gears to slip into. Contrast the round where Ali was hurt v Cooper, and the one immediatly after it.

We'd see less of the former and more of the later under the Louis regime, I feel.

I can see him losing one to Walcott out of their two fights.

I hope you know I'm no Ali-lover, also I've always shown respect for Joe Walcott, a fighter I really like, but I don't think Walcott sees round 10 against Ali in either fight.


He would have been more preserved in 1950 when he came back to face Charles, but would still have been roughly at 1974 or 1975 standards...where he could lose to Charles.

I agree with this. I think if Chales fought the right fight he would beat Ali. Though Ali has the chance If Charles puts a foot wrong.


The two have pretty parallel careers, actually.

It is interesting.

Though I don't agree with a lot of what you've said, I really enjoyed your post, thank you.

[JIm Broughton]

Ali in his prime would have a party with Louis's opposition. One fight with Frazier equals five fights withe the likes of Dorazio, Simon, Paycheck, Perroni et al. Joe may have fought more frequently but against lesser opposition. Put Louis in against Ali's opposition and see if he fights as frequently., I doubt it. A 215lb Ali is too fast and strong for the likes of Charles, Walcott, Conn, Schmeling etc. With his height, weight, reach, handspeed and especially footwork, who the hell would catch him? With the exception of Conn who weighed 169lbs(169lbs? Are you kidding me?) for his fight with Joe, all of Joe's opponents basically stood right in front of him and he in front of them. Ali would be culture shock for these guys! The only fighter from that period who would give Ali trouble imo would be Walcott. Tricky and shifty with a good punch. Other than Jersey Joe, Ali, a prime Ali, would have a picnic.

[mattdonnellon]

Cross trainer, a great post and thought provoking and informative, other posts not quite so!

[Minotauro]

A 34 year old Ali would have a lot of problems with Walcott when Ali was this age he was getting close wins against Norton and Young and Walcott is a more difficult style then both men. Also Ali outspoken attitude may have done negative things for black fighters like it did for Johnson so guys like Charles, Patterson and Liston may not have got their opportunities.

[Langford]

one good way to match the careers is made possible by the fact that they both turned pro very young. If Ali would have been in Louis' shoes on the same time line and the guys I would give some chance to win (however small).

Adolph Waiter. A real question mark. Not much is known about Waiter. But he seems to be a real tough opponent for somebody with a handful of fights. This is a question mark, how would an Ali do if this was his sixth or so fight? Question mark.

Max Schmeling. Ali would be very young here, and while Max might not be able to see a real exploitable weakness here, he is still a great fighter who would be in with a very inexperienced Ali. But I think that Ali's style would allow him to do better than Louis did. Though the second fight would not be like Louis v. Schmelling II. Schmeling fights him close on two close, but losing efforts.

Bob Pastor. This would have been a tough fight for Ali. Pastor was a very smart, defensive fighter and the kind of guy that Ali would have to look for. Ali would probably beat him, but he would look really bad and Pastor for sure would have his moments.

Tony Galento, a slim chance, but a chance because of the left hook (ali leveler).

Bob Pastor again. If Ali fights him again based on a close fight before, Ali does just as bad if not worse this time. Louis was the ultimate in rematch kings, Ali, not as much, whereas Pastor may bring more into the rematch.

Arturo Godoy. A tough swarming fighter who would give Ali a tough night and move him towards the ropes a la Chuvalo. Ali is really helped here because he meets Godoy in his prime.

Billy Conn. I think that Ali has a tough time with Conn. Yes Conn was smaller, and had very little power, but Ali does have a problem with a fighter that he will have to go after as opposed to one who will come in to take his head off. Conn could pull off the upset against Ali that he couldn't have done vs. Louis. But Conn's speed would be nearly be somewhat nulled because of the speed of Ali. Ali still needs to press here, so it could be interesting.

Lou Nova. Nova was a pretty good fighter who froze more than a little against Louis. Those that think that Max Baer may have done the trick because he wouldn't freeze up, I would be more inclined to go with Nova who had less power, but still good power, and was more of a technical fighter. I would still pick Ali to win because I think he could cut up Nova.

Tami Mauriello. How would a mid thirties Ali who has lost his legs somewhat do against the swarming Mauriello? Without the absolute bombs that Louis had, Ali would be in for a longer night here. No first round KO and Mauriello would really make a fight of it.

Jersey Joe Walcott. Walcott would have been a tough fight for Ali style wise at any time. The fact that Ali would be older here makes for a real tough fight. I favor Walcott here after he is perhaps robbed in the first fight, in a rematch.

Marciano and Charles would beat a Leon Spinks era Ali, but I throw those out the window.


Louis lost to Schmeling, Charles and Rocky. 69-3
Ali could lose to Pastor II, Mauriello, Walcott (at least once), Charles and Rocky. 67-5.

[SuzieQ49]

Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.


I think Walcott would have been ali's nightmare. A slick cutie counterpuncher with footwork and upperbody moves that could match ali's, and a devastating left hook which ali was sucseptible too. I still see ali winning but very close fight. Louis said Walcott would have beaten ali.

[SuzieQ49]

I would have liked to see how Ali would have done against Harry Bobo, Lee Q murray, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins, Jack Trammell, Willie Reddish, Roscoe Toles, Tiger Jack Fox. Too bad politics and world war II prevented louis from fighting some of these very well deserving guys.

[Luigi1985]

I would have liked to see how Ali would have done against Harry Bobo, Lee Q murray, Turkey Thompson, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins, Jack Trammell, Willie Reddish, Roscoe Toles, Tiger Jack Fox. Too bad politics and world war II prevented louis from fighting some of these very well deserving guys.


Bivins against Ali would be great for the fans, Jimmy had a slick style who would be dangerous for Ali...

[godking]

Replace Louis with Ali for The Bombers title reign.
What changes do you see?
Ali defends against the same opponents,whatresults would change?
Would Ali be unbeaten?
Which wins do you think would be more emphatic?
Which fights would be harder?
Which easier?Ali clears it relativelly easy for that matter so would Tyson and Holmes.

Only Conn and Wallcot might give some trouble.

Louis did not really fight a great slew of of contenders.

But the myth of Joe Louis makes those contenders look better then they really where.

[groove]

Cooper gets a bad beating by Ali in 2 fights but he lands one good punch and is now considered a troublesome fighter for Ali :nut Same with Banks LOL. When Ali did get knocked down he got straight back up. Shit happens but it's how you react that's important. Clutching at straws me thinks :D

[janitor]

Ali would have no trouble with Louis opposition. None of them are as good as the fighters Ali beat.

He might just have more trouble with Louis's oponents than his own.

While they were generaly inferior they might have posed more awkward stylistic match ups.

The guys I rather fancy as possible spoilers are Bob Pastor, Tommy Farr, Billy Conn and Joe Walcott.

[janitor]

[quote=godking]Ali clears it relativelly easy for that matter so would Tyson and Holmes.


That is utter rubish.

You are not even taking into acount the circumstances Louis fought these contenders under.

I wouldnt be a prime Ali fighting Max Baer it would be the pre Sonny Banks version.

It wouldnt be a prime Ali that fought Walcott it would be the post Manilla version and he would not have Louis's power to bail him out.

The notion that Tyson could reign for 12 years in any era is preposterous. He just didnt have the stability or consistency.

[godking]

[quote]


That is utter rubish.

You are not even taking into acount the circumstances Louis fought these contenders under.

I wouldnt be a prime Ali fighting Max Baer it would be the pre Sonny Banks version.

It wouldnt be a prime Ali that fought Walcott it would be the post Manilla version and he would not have Louis's power to bail him out.

The notion that Tyson could reign for 12 years in any era is preposterous. He just didnt have the stability or consistency.Ali clears it

I give none of the contenders that Louis fought more then a 1 in 5 chance

Your are right about Tyson i should have rephrased that . A tyson that does not get derailed by lack of motivation or out of the ring distractions rules for until he is 29 -30 in the Louis era at around 29 30 he gets diminishing returns from his infighting and gets ripe for the upset

Holmes clears it but could get trouble at the end from Jersey Joe. Walcott could pull of a Spinks upset on an older Holmes.

[janitor]

[quote=godking][quote=janitor]Ali clears it

I give none of the contenders that Louis fought more then a 1 in 5 chance


I would not give many of them better than a 1 in 5 chance but if Ali fights all of them there is the chance that one gets past him.

I do think that his title reign would be similar to Louis's but different. He would be the dominant heavyweight over the same period.

One guy I do think would get past him is Jersey Joe Walcott. I think he would beat a faded Ali. Louis only got past him at that stage due to his finishing abilities.

On the flip side of the coin Ali probably beats Scheling.


Your are right about Tyson i should have rephrased that . A tyson that does not get derailed by lack of motivation or out of the ring distractions rules for until he is 29 -30 in the Louis era at around 29 30 he gets diminishing returns from his infighting and gets ripe for the upset


Fair enough.

Holmes clears it but could get trouble at the end from Jersey Joe. Walcott could pull of a Spinks upset on an older Holmes.

I dont think Holmes would clear it. He would have been thrown in against top contenders earlier and would have had slightly tougher matches throughout.

I do think however that Holmes has the most important element to replicat Louis's title reign eg consistency.

[Grebfan9]

IN MY ANALYSIS OF THIS QUESTION, LETS TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT
TYPE OF FIGHTERS GAVE ALI THE MOST TROUBLE: PRESSURE
FIGHTERS LIKE FRAZIER AND FIGHTERS WITH GOOD QUICK JABS
LIKE KEN NORTON.

JIM BRADDOCK HAD A GOOD QUICK JAB, EXCELLENT STAMINA AND A
SOLID CHIN. EXPECT A HARD FIGHT FROM BRADDOCK VERSUS ALI.

LOU NOVA HAD AN EXCELLENT QUICK JAB, VERY GOOD FOOTWORK
A STRONG CHIN AND A HARD RIGHT CROSS. NOVA WAS ALSO
ABOUT 6' 3". NOVA WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE VERSUS ALI.

BUDDY BAER HAD HEIGHT (6' 6"), POWER AND DETERMINATION.
BAER COULD GIVE ALI A FEW ANXIOUS MOMENTS.

CONN FOUGHT A BIT DIFFERENTLY THAN ALI. CONN WAS AN
EXCELLENT BODY PUNCHER - HE KAYOED BOB PASTOR WITH A
LEFT HOOK TO THE BODY. CONN WOULD MOVE IN AND BANG
ALI WITH BODY PUNCHES AND CONN ALSO HAD A VERY GOOD
LEFT HOOK TO THE HEAD.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT THESE FIGHTERS WOULD WALK OVER ALI,
BUT THEY WERE ALL EXPERIENCED AND TOUGH AND WOULD GIVE
ALI A FIGHT.

GREBFAN9
[Only registered and activated users can see links] ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

[Bokaj]

That Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab doesn't mean all guys with good jabs would trouble him. Liston had a legendary jab that only hit air when he met Ali, and guys like Terrell, Ellis, Bugner and Foreman all had good jabs, but that didn't help them much.

Can't really see why Conn would trouble Ali, who quite easily beat small, fast guys like Patterson and Foster (yes, Foster cut him, but Ali's win was never in doubt).

[janitor]

That Norton gave Ali trouble with his jab doesn't mean all guys with good jabs would trouble him. Liston had a legendary jab that only hit air when he met Ali, and guys like Terrell, Ellis, Bugner and Foreman all had good jabs, but that didn't help them much.

Can't really see why Conn would trouble Ali, who quite easily beat small, fast guys like Patterson and Foster (yes, Foster cut him, but Ali's win was never in doubt).

What troubled Ali was guys who fought on the back foot.

Bob Pastor and Joe Walcott would be two to avoid.

[Bokaj]

What troubled Ali was guys who fought on the back foot.

Except for Jimmy Young (who Ali fought when way past his peak), do you have any examples of this?

[janitor]

Except for Jimmy Young (who Ali fought when way past his peak), do you have any examples of this?

Yes

Jimmy Young

He looked like a lost little boy in that fight.

It wasnt just that he was faded. He genuinely didnt know how to fight on the front foot. Throw enough Jimmy Youngs at him and he will lose eventualy.

[groove]

The Ali who fought Terrell wouldn't be allowed to fight Conn. Total mismatch. Foreman when he landed could kill Conn.

[Bokaj]

Yeah, I think it's a bit far-fetched to assume that Conn would be difficult for Ali just because Ali had trouble with Jimmy Young in one of the worst perfomances of his career when he was at just about the worst shape he's even been in (he came in at 230 lbs). Foreman lost to Young and I don't see Conn lasting very long against Foreman.

[jc]

I cant see Ali losing to anybody on Joe Louis' record.

[ironchamp]

Good question!

Green Ali v Schmeling would be very interesting. VERY interesting, but I would pick green Ali to win it nontheless.

The Max Baer fight would be harder for him. Baer would be a live wire the entire time he was in there - the later rounds v Baer would be the cricial ones for Ali I feel, and there'd probably be a rematch to boot. It's possible that Baer could beat a young Ali I feel, he could be Ali's Schmeling, if you see what I mean. There might even be a trilogy.

Braddock would be easier for Ali and he might actually do the near impossible and force Braddock to quit.

The Conn fight wouldn't happen. What would be the point, he would have literally no chance.

Walcott would be far, far easier for Ali, he would stop Walcott middle rounds twice I think.

These are the thoughts that first occur to me.

The Baer fight would have been pretty easy, Ali never had problems with slower lumbering power punchers. I think'd he'd look very impressive in that one.

The Walcott fight would be tougher than expected. I think Jersey Joe would have beaten Ali at that stage.

Ali was never a sucker to a right hand always the left hook. I think its within possibility that he might get cute with Galento and taste the canvas before resuming the clinic that he would have most likely been putting on display. I don't think Schemeling would have given him fits.

[janitor]

I cant see Ali losing to anybody on Joe Louis' record.

It is not a question of whether you would favour an given Louis oponent over Ali.

It is a question of whether he could beat them all under the same circumstances as Louis in the same order.

[janitor]

[quote=ironchamp]The Baer fight would have been pretty easy, Ali never had problems with slower lumbering power punchers. I think'd he'd look very impressive in that one.


Remember that this is Ali only 14 months into his profesional career with a much shorter amateur career before that.


The Walcott fight would be tougher than expected. I think Jersey Joe would have beaten Ali at that stage.


This would be his toughest test.

What version of Ali would be a fair comparison to the version of Louis that fought Walcott?

If it is the post Manilla version then Walcott probably wins.

[Bokaj]

[quote]
What version of Ali would be a fair comparison to the version of Louis that fought Walcott?

If it is the post Manilla version then Walcott probably wins.

That is far from impossible. Ali faded incredibly fast after that fight.

But I do think that even a quite green Ali probably would beat Baer. What I've seen of him he's just too predictable and far too reliant on his big right.

That Ali in his prime would have trouble with Conn, that I just can't believe, though.

[janitor]

That Ali in his prime would have trouble with Conn, that I just can't believe, though.

Personaly I think Conn would be one of his tougher asignments of that period.

A bit of a foil perhaps.

[Langford]

you can't compare Foster and Conn in terms of fighting styles. One, Conn, was a little guy who fought like a little guy (when he wasn't getting carried away), the other, Foster, was a little guy who fought the bigger guys like a bigger guy.