Lists Please!!!!!

[Thread Stealer]

I am curious 2 see your lists for whatever, all-time p4p, all-time heavyweight, lightweight, americans, latinos, etc...

[teeto]

Are you trying to make trouble ?!! Kidding, these topics are the best kind.

Top 10 135 pounders (not h2h) ATGs

1. Duran
2. Leonard
3. Gans
4. Whitaker
5. Ortiz
6. Williams
7. Mosley
8. Brown
9. Buchannan
10. Jack

Just the top 7 are the ones i wouldnt like to change , although i would probably like to keep Brown at number 8, he is not set in stone. 9 and 10 could be any of the ATGs that i rate just below my 'elite' at 135 history, the placing of Mosley may bother some but i like him here

[TBooze]

Remember you asked:



The numbers in brackets were places I placed my top 35 of all-time in April 2005

100 Manny Paciquao
99 Harry Wills
98 Kid McCoy
97 Jeff Fenech
96 Carlos Ortiz
95 Jimmy McLarnin
94 Tony Zale
93 Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
92 Freddie Welsh
91 Dick Tiger
90 Jeff Chandler
89 James J Corbett
88 Brian Mitchell
87 Wilfredo Gomez
86 Kid Chocolate
85 Marcel Cerdan
84 Joe Frazier
83 Winky Wright
82 Kostya Tszyu
81 Jimmy Carruthers
80 Jack McAuliffe
79 Rinty Monaghan
78 Nicolino Loche
77 Mike Tyson
76 Bob Montgomery
75 Lennox Lewis
74 Young Griffo
73 Aaron Pryor
72 Nino Benvenuti
71 Jim Driscoll
70 Salvador Sanchez
69 Mike McCallum
68 Jack Dempsey
67 Flash Elorde
66 Wilfred Benitez
65 Rocky Marciano
64 Felix Trinidad
63 Abe Attell
62 Antonio Cervantes
61 James J Jeffries
60 Al Brown
59 Eusebio Pedroza
58 Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
57 Evander Holyfield
56 Bob Foster
55 Larry Holmes
54 Stanley Ketchel (19)
53 Michael Spinks
52 Azumah Nelson
51 Ruben Olivares (32)
50 Jose Napoles
49 Pascual Perez
48 Manuel Ortiz
47 Ike Williams
46 Roy Jones Jr (35)
45 Maxie Rosenbloom
44 Jack Johnson
43 Floyd Mayweather Jr
42 Tony Canzoneri
41 George Foreman (34)
40 Eder Jofre (26)
39 Johnny Kilbane
38 Kid Gavilan
37 Tommy Loughran
36 Ricardo Lopez
35 Alexis Arguello (24)
34 Bernard Hopkins
33 Carlos Zarate (25)
32 (Barbados) Joe Walcott
31 Tommy Hearns (31)
30 Marvin Hagler (30)
29 Pancho Villa (21)
28 Emile Griffith
27 Joe Louis (29)
26 Joe Gans (33)
25 Gene Tunney (28)
24 Terry McGovern
23 George Dixon (27)
22 Georges Carpentier (4)
21 Oscar de la Hoya (22)
20 Pernell Whitaker (23)
19 Julio Cesar Chavez (15)
18 Sammy Langford (9)
17 Barney Ross
16 Ray Leonard (13)
15 Carlos Monzon (12)
14 Ezzard Charles (17)
13 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
12 Benny Leonard (16)
11 Charley Burley (10)
10 Muhammad Ali (11)
9 Harry Grebb (18)
8 Jimmy Wilde (7)
7 Sandy Saddler (5)
6 Willie Pep (6)
5 Mickey Walker (14)
4 Archie Moore (8)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)


Top 40 Heavies

40: Cleveland Williams
39: Zora Foley
38: Tommy Burns
37: Michael Spinks
36: James Douglas
35: James Braddock
34: George Godfrey
33: Jimmy Bivens
32: Max Baer
31: Jerry Quarry
30: Tim Whitherspoon
29: Bob Fitzsimmons
28: Jack Sharkey
27: Sam McVey
26: Joe Jeanette
25: Vitali Klitschko
24: Peter Jackson
23: Ken Norton
22: Joe Walcott (Jersey)
21: Gene Tunney
20: Riddick Bowe
19: Floyd Patterson
18: Max Schmeling
17: Ezzard Charles
16: Sammy Langford
15: Harry Wills
14: James Corbett
13: Sonny Liston
12: Joe Frazier
11: Mike Tyson
10: Lennox Lewis
9 James Jeffries
8: Jack Dempsey
7: Rocky Marciano
6: Evander Holyfield
5: Larry Holmes
4: Jack Johnson
3: George Foreman
2: Joe Louis
1: Muhammad Ali

[TBooze]

All-time Super Middleweights:
1 Joe Calzaghe
2 Chong Pal Park
3 Roy Jones Jr
4 Nigel Benn
5 Chris Eubank
6 Steve Collins
7 Sven Ottke
8 James Toney
9 Frankie Liles
10 Byron Mitchell

Mentions: Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Thulani Malinga, Charles Brewster, Richie Woodhall, Eric Lucas and Mikkel Kessler

Middleweights:

40 Paul Pender
39 Thomas Hearns
38 Rocky Graziano
37 Randy Turpin
36 Mike McCallum
35 Georges Carpentier
34 Les Darcy
33 Al McCoy
32 Fred Apostolio
31 Sambu Kalambay
30 Tiger Flowers
29 Gene Fullmer
28 Rodrigo Valdez
27 Dick Tiger
26 Bob Fitzsimmons
25 James Toney
24 Michael Nunn
23 Jack 'Twin' Sullivan
22 Mike O'Dowd
21 Jake LaMotta
20 Freddie Steele
19 Marcel Thil
18 Gorilla Jones
17 Sammy Langford
16 Emile Griffith
15 Joey Giardello
14 Kid McCoy
13 Nino Benvenuti
12 Tony Zale
11 Marcel Cerdan
10 Roy Jones
9 Jack Dempsey
8 Harry Greb
7 Marvin Hagler
6 Bernard Hopkins
5 Mickey Walker
4 Charley Burley
3 Stanley Ketchel
2 Ray Robinson
1 Carlos Monzon

Mentions:
Young CorbettIII
'Bobo' Olson
Carmen Basilio
Terry Downes
Vito Antuofermo
Alan Minter
Iran Barkley
Julian Jackson
Gerald McClellan
Reggie Johnson
Felix Trinidad

Junior Middleweights

10 Sandro Mazzinghi
9 Gianfranco Rosi
8 Wilfred Benitez
7 Ray Leonard
6 Emile Griffith
5 Terry Norris
4 Felix Trinidad
3 Winky Wright
2 Mike McCallum
1 Tommy Hearns

Mentions: Denny Moyer, Nino Benvenuti, Ki Soo Kim, Koichi Wajima, Ayub Kalule, Maurice Hope, Roberto Duran, Julian Jackson, John David Jackson, Julio Cesar Vazquez, Harry Simon, Oscar de la Hoya and Shane Mosley

Top 10 welters

1 Ray Robinson
2 Ray Leonard
3 Kid Gavilan
4 Emile Griffith
5 Henry Armstrong
6 Jose Napoles
7 Felix Trinidad
8 Oscar De La Hoya
9 Thomas Hearns
10 Carmen Bassillo

Mentions to: Tommy Ryan, 'Mysterious' Billy Smith, 'The original' Joe Walcott, Mike Sullivan, Jack Britton, Ted 'Kid' Lewis, Mickey Walker, Jackie Fields, Barney Ross, Jim McLarnin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Benny 'Kid' Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Carlos Palomino, Pipino Cuevas, Roberto Duran, Don Curry, Marlon Starling, Pernell Whitaker and Shane Mosley

Junior Welterweights:


10 Floyd Mayweather Jr
9 Ricky Hatton
8 Oscar de la Hoya
7 Meldrick Taylor
6 Julio Cesar Chavez
5 Nicolino Loche
4 Kostya Tszyu
3 Aaron Pryor
2 Wilfred Benitez
1 Antonio Cervantes

Mentions: Pinkey Mitchell, Jackie Berg, Mushy Callahan, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Carlos Ortiz, Duilio Loi, Saoul Mamby, Patrizio Oliva, Roger Mayweather, Buddy McGirt, Pernell Whitaker, Frankie Randall, Juan Martin Coggi, Vince Phillips, Zab Zab Judah and Sharmba Mitchell

[TBooze]

10 Sammy Angott
9 Julio Cesar Chavez
8 Bob Montgomery
7 Ike Williams
6 Battling Nelson
5 Joe Gans
4 Pernell Whitaker
3 Henry Armstrong
2 Benny Leonard
1 Roberto Duran

Mentions: Jack McAuliffe, George Lavigne, Frank Erne, Tony Canzoneri, Barney Ross, Lou Ambers, Beau Jack, Jimmy Carter, Carlos Ortiz, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu (Ishimatsu Suzuki), Alexis Arguello, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Hector Camacho Snr, Oscar de la Hoya, Shane Mosley, Steve Johnson, Jose Luis Castillo and Floyd Mayweather Jr

Junior Lightweights:

10 Manny Paciquao
9 Johnny Dundee
8 Floyd Mayweather Jr
7 Brian Mitchell
6 Sandy Saddler
5 Kid Chocolate
4 Azumah Nelson
3 Alexis Arguello
2 Flash Elorde
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions: Alfredo Escalera, Sammy Serrano, Bazooka Limon, Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Bobby Chacon, Roger Mayweather, Hector Camacho, Rocky Lockbridge, Tony Lopez, John John Molina, Genaro Hernandez, Oscar de la Hoya, Gabby Ruelas, Arturo Gatti, Acelino Freitas, Diego Corrales, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales and Floyd Mayweather Jr

Top 10 feathers

The Featherweights are an incredibly talented group of fighters; my all-time list goes:

10: Salvador Sanchez
9: Joey Archibald
8: Azumah Nelson
7: Johnny Kilbane
6: George Dixon
5: Henry Armstrong
4; Eusebio Pedroza
3: Abe Attell
2: Willie Pep
1: Sandy Saddler

Honorary mentions: Young Griffo, Terry McGovern, Jim Driscoll, Bat Battalino, Hogan 'Kid' Bassey, Davey Moore, Sugar Ramos, Vicente Saldivar, Eder Jofre, Antonio Esparragoza, Naseem Hamed and Marco Antonio Barrera

Mentions: Ben Jordan, Young Corbett II, Johnny Dundee, Kid Kaplan, Tony Canzoneri, Kid Chocolate, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Howard Winstone, Alexis Arguello, Danny Lopez, Juan LaPorte, Jeff Fenech, Marcos Villasana, Tom Johnson, Kevin Kelley, Eloy Rojas, Manuel Medina, Wilfred Vazquez, Erik Morales, and Manny Pacquiao.

Super Bantamweights

10 Kennedy McKinney
9 Seung Hoon Lee
8 Manny Paciquao
7 Junior Jones
6 Vuyani Bungu
5 Marco Antonio Barrera
4 Erik Morales
3 Jeff Fenech
2 Daniel Zaragoza
1 Wilfredo Gomez

Mentions: Welcome Ncita, Paul Banke, Wilfredo Vazquez, Raul Perez, Tracy Harris Patterson, Antonio Cermeno, Lehlohonolo Ledwaba, Bones Adams, Oscar Larios and Israel Vazquez

Bantamweights

10 Kaosai Galaxy
9 Lupe Pintor
8 Jeff Chandler
7 Al Brown
6 Jimmy Carruthers
5 Ruben Olivares
4 Manuel Ortiz
3 Eder Jofre
2 Terry McGovern
1 Carlos Zarate

Mentions: George Dixon, Billy Plimmer, Pedlar Palmer, Jimmy Walsh, Kid Williams, Pete Herman, Sixto Escobar, Vic Toweel, Alphonse Halimi, Lionel Rose, Alfonso Zamora, Jeff Fenech, Gilberto Roman, Miguel Happy Lora, Orlando Canizales, Raul Perez, Sung Il Moon and Rafael Marquez

Flyweight

10 Fidel La Barba
9 Midget Wolgast
8 Little Dado
7 Myung Woo Yuh
6 Jung Koo Chang
5 Pascual Perez
4 Rinty Monaghan
3 Ricardo Lopez
2 Pancho Villa
1 Jimmy Wilde

Mentions: Jackie Brown, Benny Lynch, Small Montana, Jackie Paterson, Pone Kingpetch, Fighting Harada, Miguel Canto, Santos Laciar, Hilario Zapata, Sot Chitalada, Humberto Gonzales, Michael Carbajal, Saman Sorjaturong and Yuri Arbachakov

[TBooze]

Top 10 Mexicans

10 Erik Morales
9 Vicente Saldivar
8 Lupe Pintor
7 Salvador Sanchez
6 Marco Antonio Barrera
5 Jose Napoles (Adopted Mexico as his own country; Cuban by birth)
4 Ricardo Lopez
3 Ruben Olivares
2 Carlos Zarate
1 Julio Cesar Chavez

Mentions to: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez and Jose Luis Castillo.

Top fighters of the 90's

100 Iran Barkley
99 Vassily Jirov
98 Jorge Castro
97 Joe Calzaghe
96 Meldrick Taylor
95 Vinny Pazienza
94 Simon Brown
93 Gianfranco Rosi
92 Frankie Liles
91 William Joppy
90 Ray Mercer
89 Dingaan Thobela
88 Crisanto Espana
87 Eloy Rojas
86 Robert Quiroga
85 Nana Yaw Konadu
84 Juan Martin Coggi
83 Orlin Norris
82 Ronald Wright
81 Kennedy McKinney
80 Tim Austin
79 Julio Cesar Vazquez
78 Steve Collins
77 Al Cole
76 Lorenzo Barber
75 James Douglas
74 James McGirt
73 Miguel Angel Gonzales
72 Tony Lopez
71 Sharmba Mitchell
70 Lonnie Bradley
69 Antonio Esparragoza
68 Jake Matlala
67 Mike Tyson
66 Fernando Vargas
65 Tommy Hearns
64 Wilfred Vazquez
63 Orzubek Nazarov
62 Dave McAuley
61 Arturo Gatti
60 Harry Simon
59 Joichiro Tatsuyuhi
58 Michael Moorer
57 Julian Jackson
56 Kevin Kelley
55 Sung Il Moon
54 John John Molina
53 Manuel Medina
52 Maurice Blocker
51 Daniel Zaragoza
50 John David Jackson
49 Reggie Johnson
48 Myung Woo Yuh
47 Zack Padilla
46 Jeff Fenech
45 George Foreman
44 Henry Maske
43 Genaro Hernandez
42 Ike Quartey
41 Johnny Tapia
40 Vuyani Bungu
39 Vitali Klitschko
38 Freddie Pendleton
37 Mike McCallum
36 Michael Carbajal
35 Mark Johnson
34 Humberto Gonzales
33 Frankie Randall
32 Steve Johnston
31 Junior Jones
30 Yuri Arbachakov
29 Erik Morales
28 Tom Johnson
27 Chris Eubank
26 Gerald McClellan
25 Virgil Hill
24 Nigel Benn
23 Saman Sorjaturong
22 Kostya Tszyu
21 Azumah Nelson
20 Floyd Mayweather Jr
19 Marco Antonio Barrera
18 Bernard Hopkins
17 Shane Mosley
16 Riddick Bowe
15 Brian Mitchell
14 Dariusz Michalczewski
13 Kaosai Galaxy
12 Orlando Canizales
11 Lennox Lewis
10 Julio Cesar Chavez
9 James Toney
8 Felix Trinidad
7 Naseem Hamed
6 Terry Norris
5 Pernell Whitaker
4 Evander Holyfield
3 Ricardo Lopez
2 Roy Jones Jr
1 Oscar de la Hoya

[TBooze]

Top 101 of the 80's

101 Herol Graham
100 Miguel Lora
99 Michael Moorer
98 Hilmer Kenty
97 Rolando Navarrete
96 Yong Kang Kim
95 Gabby Canizales
94 Fulgencio Obelmejias
93 Bobby Czyz
92 Frank Tate
91 Matthew Hilton
90 Sean O'Grady
89 Terry Marsh
88 Greg Haugen
87 Duke McKenzie
86 Jorge Paez
85 Wilfred Gomez
84 Maurice Hope
83 Elly Pical
82 Saoul Mamby
81 John Mugabi
80 Eddie Mustafa Muhammad
79 Milton McCrory
78 Cornelius Boza-Edwards
77 Rafael Limon
76 Sam Serrano
75 Dave McAuley
74 Livingstone Bramble
73 Dennis Andries
72 Juan Martin Coggi
71 Sung Il Moon
70 Tony Tucker
69 Marvin Johnson
68 Gianfranco Rosi
67 Jim Watt
66 Bobby Chacon
65 Jiro Watanabe
64 Fidel Bassa
63 Seung Hoon Lee
62 Alan Minter
61 Ray Mancini
60 Dodie Penalosa
59 Juan LaPorte
58 Simon Brown
57 Ayub Kalule
56 Iran Barkley
55 Chong Pal Park
54 Carlos Deleon
53 Rocky Lockbridge
52 Barry McGuigan
51 Mark Breland
50 Charles Williams
49 Sambu Kalambay
48 Humberto Gonzales
47 Julian Jackson
46 Lloyd Honeyghan
45 Raul Perez
44 Jose Luis Ramirez
43 James McGirt
42 Tim Whitherspoon
41 Marlon Starling
40 Hilario Zapata
39 Orlando Canizales
38 Virgil Hill
37 Roger Mayweather
36 Edwin Rosario
35 Daniel Zaragoza
34 Wilfred Benitez
33 Antonio Esparragoza
32 Mathew Saad Muhammad
31 Santos Laciar
30 Meldrick Taylor
29 Dwight Muhammad Qawi
28 Gilberto Roman
27 Don Curry
26 Brian Mitchell
25 Alexis Arguello
24 Hector Camacho
23 Lupe Pintor
22 Sot Chitalada
21 Michael Nunn
20 Jeff Fenech
19 Myung Woo Yuh
18 Jung Koo Chang
17 Mike McCallum
16 Evander Holyfield
15 Pernell Whitaker
14 Jeff Chandler
13 Khoasio Galaxy
12 Salvador Sanchez
11 Azumah Nelson
10 Roberto Duran
9 Aaron Pryor
8 Eusebio Pedroza
7 Julio Cesar Chavez
6 Larry Holmes
5 Michael Spinks
4 Tommy Hearns
3 Mike Tyson
2 Marvin Hagler
1 Ray Leonard

10 most exciting boxers:

: Rocky Marciano
2: Stanley Ketchel
3: Jack Dempsey
4: Ray Robinson
5: Mike Tyson
6: Batttling Nelson
7: Beau Jack
8: Arturo Gatti
9: Tommy Hearns
10: Roberto Duran

Mentions: Micky Ward, Ivan Robinson, Nigel Benn, Evander Holyfield, Muhammad Ali, Rocky Graziano, Georges Carpentier, Battling Siki, Abe Attel, Kid McCoy, Terry McGovern.

[TBooze]

Top 10 Brits post war:

10 Jim Watt
9 Duke McKenzie
8 Randy Turpin
7 Ricky Hatton
6 Chris Eubank
5 Nigel Benn
4 Naseem Hamed
3 Jackie Paterson
2 Ken Buchanan
1 Lennox Lewis

Best Latino's of all time

10 Nicolino Loche
9 Kid Gavilan
8 Ricardo Lopez
7 Ruben Olivares
6 Carlos Zarate
5 Alexis Arguello
4 Oscar de la Hoya
3 Julio Cesar Chavez
2 Carlos Monzon
1 Roberto Duran

Honorable Mentions: Humberto Gonzales, Miguel Canto, Al Brown, Lupe Pintor, Kid Chocolate, Wilfredo Gomez, Marco Antonio Barrera, Erik Morales, Vicente Saldivar, Eusebio Pedroza, Salvador Sanchez, Carlos Ortiz, Antonio Cervantes, Wilfred Benitez, Jose Napoles and Felix Trinidad
Mentions: Rosendo Alvarez, Santos Laciar, Sixto Escobar, Rodolfo Martinez, Alfonso Zamora, Wilfredo Vazquez, Daniel Zaragoza, Joe Rivers, Baby Arizmendi, Chalky Wright, Ernesto Marcel, Juan LaPorte, Antonio Esparragoza, Manuel Medina, Rafael Limon, Hector Camacho Snr, John John Molina, Esteban DeJesus, Edwin Rosario, Jose Luis Ramirez, Jose Luis Castillo, Juan Martin Coggi, , Pipino Cuevas, Fulgencio Obelmejias, Jose Torres and Carlos DeLeon

Top 10 Cubans of all-time:

10 Joel Casamayor
9 Mario Kidelan
8 Felix Savon
7 Benny Paret
6 Lus Manuel Rodriguez
5 Sugar Ramos
4 Tefilo Stevenson
3 Kid Chocolate
2 Jose Napoles
1 Kid Gavilan

Mentions:

Nino Valdez, Juan Carlos Gomez, Jose Ribalta, Florentino Fernandez, Kid Charol, Isaac Logart, Jose Stable, Manuel Quintero, Diosbelys Hurtado, Irleis Perez, Douglas Vailant, Jose Legra, Ciro Morasen, Black Bill

[TBooze]

op 10 fighters from 1891-1900

10 Pedlar Palmer
9 Jack Dempsey
8 James J Corbett
7 Peter Jackson
6 Young Griffo
5 Terry McGovern
4 James J Jeffries
3 Jack McAuliffe
2 Bob Fitzsimmons
1 George Dixon

Mentions:

Billy Plimmer, , Billy Murphy, Ben Jordan, George Lavigne, Joe Walcott, Tommy Ryan, Mysterious Billy Smith, Kid McCoy and John L Sullivan

Top 10 fighters from 1901 to 1910

10 Tommy Ryan
9 Jim Driscoll
8 James J Jeffries
7 Joe Walcott
6 Stanley Ketchel
5 Terry McGovern
4 Jack Johnson
3 Sammy Langford
2 Abe Attell
1 Joe Gans

Mentions:

Owen Moran, Jimmy Walsh, Ben Jordan, Young CorbettII, Battling Nelson, Jack Sullivan, Billy Papke, Bob Fitzsimmons, Jack O’Brien and Tommy Burns

Top 10 fighters 1911 to 1920

10 Jim Driscoll
9 Harry Wills
8 Jack Johnson
7 Benny Leonard
6 Freddie Welsh
5 Jack Britton
4 Ted Lewis
3 Georges Carpentier
2 Johnny Kilbane
1 Jimmy Wilde

Mentions:

Kid Williams, Pete Herman, Abe Attell, Ad Wolgast, Dixie Kid, Mike Gibbons, Les Darcy, Mike O’Dowd, Sammy Langford, Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Sam McVey, Joe Jeanette and Jack Dempsey


Top 10 fighters 1921 to 1930

10 Sammy Mandell
9 Harry Wills
8 Jack Dempsey
7 Al Brown
6 Tommy Loughran
5 Gene Tunney
4 Pancho Villa
3 Harry Greb
2 Mickey Walker
1 Benny Leonard

Mentions:

Jimmy Wilde, Fidel la Barba, Johnny Kilbane, Johnny Dundee, Kid Kaplan, Benny Bass, Tony Canzoneri, Bat Battalino, Pinkey Mitchell, Jackie Berg, Jack Britton, Joe Dundee, Jackie Fields, Tiger Flowers, Georges Carpentier, Jack Delaney and Maxie Rosenbloom


Top 10 fighters 1931 to 1940

10 Jimmy McLarnin
9 Jackie Berg
8 Benny Lynch
7 Billy Conn
6 Tony Canzoneri
5 Mickey Walker
4 Barney Ross
3 Maxie Rosenbloom
2 Joe Louis
1 Henry Armstrong

Mentions:

Midget Wolgast, Jackie Brown, Little Dado, Al Brown, Kid Chocolate, Baby Arizmendi, Freddie Miller, Joey Archibald, Jackie Fields, Lou Ambers, Fritzie Zivic, Charley Burley, Gorilla Jones, Marcel Thil, Freddie Steele, John Henry Lewis, Max Schmeling, Max Baer and James J Braddock

[TBooze]

Top 10 fighters 1941 to 1950

10 Jake LaMotta
9 Rinty Monaghan
8 Sandy Saddler
7 Manuel Ortiz
6 Joe Louis
5 Ezzard Charles
4 Ike Williams
3 Charley Burley
2 Willie Pep
1 Ray Robinson

Mentions:

Jackie Paterson, Vic Toweel, Sammy Angott, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Tippy Larkin, Fritzie Zivic, Red Cochrane, Tommy Bell, Tony Zale, Rocky Graziano, Marcel Cerdan, Gus Lesnevich, Freddie Mills, Archie Moore and Billy Conn

Top 10 fighters 1951 to 1960

10 Floyd Patterson
9 Carmen Bassilio
8 Jimmy Curruthers
7 Kid Gavilan
6 Rocky Marciano
5 Pascual Perez
4 Joe Brown
3 Sandy Saddler
2 Archie Moore
1 Ray Robinson

Mentions:

Dado Marino, Alphonse Halimi, Willie Pep, Hogan Kid Bassey, Davey Moore, Carlos Ortiz, Don Jordan, Bobo Olson, Gene Fullmer, Joey Maxim, Harold Johnson, Jersey Joe Walcott and Ingemar Johansson

Top 10 fighters 1961 to 1970

10 Dick Tiger
9 Nicolino Loche
8 Bob Foster
7 Jose Napoles
6 Vincente Saldivar
5 Muhammad Ali
4 Nino Benvenuti
3 Carlos Ortiz
2 Eder Jofre
1 Emile Griffith

Mentions:

Pone Kingpetch, Fighting Harada, Lionel Rose, Ruben Olivares, Davey Moore, Sugar Ramos, Flash Elorde, Ismael Laguna, Duilio Loi, Benny Paret, Luis Rodriguez, Curtis Cokes, Ki-Soo Kim, Joey Giardello, Carlos Monzon, Willie Pastrano, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier

Top 10 fighters 1971 to 1979

10 Eder Jofre
9 Ruben Olivares
8 Alexis Arguello
7 Antonio Cervantes
6 Bob Foster
5 Jose Napoles
4 Carlos Zarate
3 Muhammad Ali
2 Carlos Monzon
1 Roberto Duran


Mentions:

Yuko Gushiken, Alfonso Zamora, Lupe Pintor, Wilfredo Gomez, Ernesto Marcel, Danny Lopez, Ken Buchanan, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu (Suzuki), Nicolino Loche, Wilfred Benitez, Pipino Cuevas, Carlos Palomino, Ray Leonard, Rodrigo Valdez, John Conteh, Victor Galindez, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Larry Holmes and Ken Norton







Top 10 fighters 1980 to 1989

10 Roberto Duran
9 Aaron Pryor
8 Eusebio Pedroza
7 Julio Cesar Chavez
6 Larry Holmes
5 Michael Spinks
4 Tommy Hearns
3 Mike Tyson
2 Marvin Hagler
1 Ray Leonard

Mentions:

Alexis Arguello, Hector Camacho, Lupe Pintor, Sot Chitalada, Michael Nunn, Jeff Fenech, Myung Woo Yuh, Jung Koo Chang, Mike McCallum, Evander Holyfield, Pernell Whitaker, Jeff Chandler, Khoasio Galaxy, Salvador Sanchez and Azumah Nelson




Top 10 fighters 1990 to 1999



10 Julio Cesar Chavez
9 James Toney
8 Felix Trinidad
7 Naseem Hamed
6 Terry Norris
5 Pernell Whitaker
4 Evander Holyfield
3 Ricardo Lopez
2 Roy Jones Jr
1 Oscar de la Hoya

Mentions:

Virgil Hill, Nigel Benn, Saman Sorjaturong, Kostya Tszyu, Azumah Nelson, Floyd Mayweather Jr, Marco Antonio Barrera, Bernard Hopkins, Shane Mosley, Riddick Bowe, Brian Mitchell, Dariusz Michalczewski, Kaosai Galaxy, Orlando Canizales and Lennox Lewis


All-time Super Middleweights:
1 Joe Calzaghe
2 Chong Pal Park
3 Roy Jones Jr
4 Nigel Benn
5 Chris Eubank
6 Steve Collins
7 Sven Ottke
8 James Toney
9 Frankie Liles
10 Byron Mitchell

Mentions: Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Thulani Malinga, Charles Brewster, Richie Woodhall, Eric Lucas and Mikkel Kessler

Social importance:

10 Rocky Marciano
9 Ray Leonard
8 Ray Robinson
7 Jack Johnson
6 James J Jeffries
5 Jack Dempsey
4 Mike Tyson
3 John L Sullivan
2 Joe Louis
1 Muhammad Ali

Mentions: James J Corbett, Harry Wills, Georges Carpentier, Benny Leonard, Harry Greb, Gene Tunney, Micky Walker, James J Braddock, Billy Conn, Rocky Graziano, Jake LaMotta, Joe Frazier, Roberto Duran, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, Evander Holyfield and Oscar de la Hoya

[TBooze]

Top Ten Puerto Rican fighters:

10 Wilfredo Vazquez
9 John John Molina
8 Edwin Rosario
7 Sixto Escobar
6 Esteban DeJesus
5 Hector Camacho Snr
4 Wilfred Benitez
3 Wilfredo Gomez
2 Felix Trinidad
1 Carlos Ortiz

Honorable Mentions: Juan LaPorte, Miguel Cotto, Jose Torres and Carlos DeLeon
Mentions: Ivan Calderon, Daniel Jimenez, Alfredo Escalera, Sammy Serrano, Daniel Santos, Ossie Ocasio and Johnny Ruiz

Some of the lists are quite old and may need a bit of ad******g.;)

[McGrain]

Wow.

Anyway, here's my top 10 guys who had a fight with Archie Moore (p4p)

1 - Ezzard Charles

2 - Charley Burley

3 - Muhammad Ali

4 - Holman Williams

5 - Harold Johnson

6 - Eddie Booker

7 - Rocky Marciano

8 - Jimmy Bivins

9 - Cocoa Kid

10-Floyd Patterson

Honourable mentions for Marshall, Chase & Maxim.

[Thread Stealer]

thank you

[Pat_Lowe]

Daaamn TBooze you got way to much time. But how come on your most exciting fighters you don't have Matthew Saad Muhammad? Definently belongs there. I like the high placement of Hearns though, I reckon his excitement comes from the anticipation. That he might just out of no where take his opponent out in one hit.

[sweet_scientist]

Here's a list of fine fighters NOT in my top 100:

Tony Zale
Mike McCallum
Jack Britton
Freddie Welsh
Jackie Kid Berg
Ricardo Lopez
Esteban DeJesus
Ken Buchanan
Kid Lavigne
Jimmy Carter
Sammy Mandell
Lennox Lewis
Gene Fullmer
Jeff Fenech
Jung-Koo Chang
Battling Nelson
Nino Benvenuti
Tommy Gibbons
Shane Mosley
Holman Williams
James Toney
Flash Elorde
Winky Wright
Ismael Laguna
Pancho Villa
Jack Non-Pareil Dempsey
Frankie Genaro
Meldrick Taylor
Rodrigo Valdes
Panama Al Brown
Jeff Chandler
Terry Norris
Billy Petrolle
Hector Camacho
Khaosai Galaxy
Les Darcy
Benny Lynch
Wes Ramey
Georges Carpentier
Jack McAuliffe
Fidel LaBarba
Donald Curry
Jersey Joe Walcott
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Battling Siki
Sugar Ramos
Pone Kingpetch
Freddie Miller
Joe Brown
Kid McKoy
Baby Arizmendi
Jimmy Britt
Jack Dillon
Maxie Rosenbloom
Lloyd Marshall
John Henry Lewis
Young Corbett III
Jack Chase
Hiroyuki Ebihara
Eddie Booker
Sam McVea
Kid Azteca
Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
Teddy Yarosz
Jeff Clark
Harry Wills
Eddie Perkins
Kostya Tszyu
Cocoa Kid
Salvatore Burruni
Horacio Accavallo
Pedro Montanez
Santos Laciar
Willie Ritchie
Young Peter Jackson
Marcel Thil
Lou Bogash
Pete Sanstol
Floyd Patterson
Lupe Pintor
Lionel Rose
Ernesto Marcel
Chalky Wright
Ad Wolgast
Lew Jenkins
Manny Pacquaio
Kid Kaplan
Chucho Castillo
Buddy McGirt
Fidel La Barba
Betulio Gonzalez
Floyd Patterson
Rocky Kansas
Willie Joyce
Mysterious Billy Smith
Cocoa Kid
Jimmy Bivins
Joe Calzaghe

[Dempsey1238]

Not in your 100?? I belive Gene Fullmer should be there some were in the top 100 lol. Villa should make the top 100 also.

[Dempsey1238]

The shame, Darcy doesnt make the cut either??

[sweet_scientist]

Not in your 100?? I belive Gene Fullmer should be there some were in the top 100 lol. Villa should make the top 100 also.

There are so many guys I feel uncomfortable about excluding, and those two are definitely in that bunch.

Really, you could make good cases for half the guys I listed being in the top 100.

[Sweet Pea]

My top fighters with the last name Yarosz:

1. Teddy Yarosz
2. Eddie Yarosz

Thank you.

[sweet_scientist]

The shame, Darcy doesnt make the cut either??

Hahah, not even after looking at the extended versions of his fights, lol. Have you had a look at them by the way?

If his career wasn't cut so short i think he would have taken his place amongst the top 100. His talent is undeniable.

[sweet_scientist]

My top fighters with the last name Yarosz:

1. Teddy Yarosz
2. Eddie Yarosz

Thank you.

:lol:

[Marciano Frazier]

Remember you asked:



The numbers in brackets were places I placed my top 35 of all-time in April 2005

100 Manny Paciquao
99 Harry Wills
98 Kid McCoy
97 Jeff Fenech
96 Carlos Ortiz
95 Jimmy McLarnin
94 Tony Zale
93 Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
92 Freddie Welsh
91 Dick Tiger
90 Jeff Chandler
89 James J Corbett
88 Brian Mitchell
87 Wilfredo Gomez
86 Kid Chocolate
85 Marcel Cerdan
84 Joe Frazier
83 Winky Wright
82 Kostya Tszyu
81 Jimmy Carruthers
80 Jack McAuliffe
79 Rinty Monaghan
78 Nicolino Loche
77 Mike Tyson
76 Bob Montgomery
75 Lennox Lewis
74 Young Griffo
73 Aaron Pryor
72 Nino Benvenuti
71 Jim Driscoll
70 Salvador Sanchez
69 Mike McCallum
68 Jack Dempsey
67 Flash Elorde
66 Wilfred Benitez
65 Rocky Marciano
64 Felix Trinidad
63 Abe Attell
62 Antonio Cervantes
61 James J Jeffries
60 Al Brown
59 Eusebio Pedroza
58 Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
57 Evander Holyfield
56 Bob Foster
55 Larry Holmes
54 Stanley Ketchel (19)
53 Michael Spinks
52 Azumah Nelson
51 Ruben Olivares (32)
50 Jose Napoles
49 Pascual Perez
48 Manuel Ortiz
47 Ike Williams
46 Roy Jones Jr (35)
45 Maxie Rosenbloom
44 Jack Johnson
43 Floyd Mayweather Jr
42 Tony Canzoneri
41 George Foreman (34)
40 Eder Jofre (26)
39 Johnny Kilbane
38 Kid Gavilan
37 Tommy Loughran
36 Ricardo Lopez
35 Alexis Arguello (24)
34 Bernard Hopkins
33 Carlos Zarate (25)
32 (Barbados) Joe Walcott
31 Tommy Hearns (31)
30 Marvin Hagler (30)
29 Pancho Villa (21)
28 Emile Griffith
27 Joe Louis (29)
26 Joe Gans (33)
25 Gene Tunney (28)
24 Terry McGovern
23 George Dixon (27)
22 Georges Carpentier (4)
21 Oscar de la Hoya (22)
20 Pernell Whitaker (23)
19 Julio Cesar Chavez (15)
18 Sammy Langford (9)
17 Barney Ross
16 Ray Leonard (13)
15 Carlos Monzon (12)
14 Ezzard Charles (17)
13 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
12 Benny Leonard (16)
11 Charley Burley (10)
10 Muhammad Ali (11)
9 Harry Grebb (18)
8 Jimmy Wilde (7)
7 Sandy Saddler (5)
6 Willie Pep (6)
5 Mickey Walker (14)
4 Archie Moore (8)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)


Top 40 Heavies

40: Cleveland Williams
39: Zora Foley
38: Tommy Burns
37: Michael Spinks
36: James Douglas
35: James Braddock
34: George Godfrey
33: Jimmy Bivens
32: Max Baer
31: Jerry Quarry
30: Tim Whitherspoon
29: Bob Fitzsimmons
28: Jack Sharkey
27: Sam McVey
26: Joe Jeanette
25: Vitali Klitschko
24: Peter Jackson
23: Ken Norton
22: Joe Walcott (Jersey)
21: Gene Tunney
20: Riddick Bowe
19: Floyd Patterson
18: Max Schmeling
17: Ezzard Charles
16: Sammy Langford
15: Harry Wills
14: James Corbett
13: Sonny Liston
12: Joe Frazier
11: Mike Tyson
10: Lennox Lewis
9 James Jeffries
8: Jack Dempsey
7: Rocky Marciano
6: Evander Holyfield
5: Larry Holmes
4: Jack Johnson
3: George Foreman
2: Joe Louis
1: Muhammad Ali :huh This seems a bit inconsistent. Why would Marciano rank higher than Jeffries at heavyweight, but lower pound-for-pound? Jeffries was considerably bigger than Marciano.

[Dempsey1238]

Hahah, not even after looking at the extended versions of his fights, lol. Have you had a look at them by the way?

If his career wasn't cut so short i think he would have taken his place amongst the top 100. His talent is undeniable.

Not yet, still recorded some DVDs to working DVD's.

I got the Jake Lamotta DVD recorded. They may be on one of the non working DVDs of the 4.

[Dempsey1238]

Its on the working disk,

Question, there are some fights I cant id on that disk with the Longer versions of the Darcy fights. It has Louis Lewis also. Can you give me a run down on that disk?

[Marciano Frazier]

NOTE: This list is excluding guys who are still active and near the top or who still have numerous opponents who are active and near the top, because those guys' rankings are heavily in flux. Guys like the Klitschkos and Tua will eventually have a place on this list, but I will wait for them and the majority of their major opponents to retire or drop out of the picture before I feel like I have a fairly clear picture of where they fall overall.


My current top 50 heavyweights of all time-
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. George Foreman
4. Rocky Marciano
5. Joe Frazier
6. Larry Holmes
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Jim Jeffries
9. Jack Johnson
10. Evander Holyfield
11. Sonny Liston
12. Mike Tyson
13. Lennox Lewis
14. Jersey Joe Walcott
15. Ezzard Charles
16. Floyd Patterson
17. Riddick Bowe
18. Gene Tunney
19. Max Schmeling
20. Sam Langford
21. Ingemar Johansson
22. Ken Norton
23. Max Baer
24. Jack Sharkey
25. Jerry Quarry
26. Bob Fitzsimmons
27. Harry Wills
28. Archie Moore
29. Jess Willard
30. Elmer Ray
31. Jim Corbett
32. Tim Witherspoon
33. Mike Spinks
34. Tom Sharkey
35. Joe Jeanette
36. Jimmy Ellis
37. Sam McVey
38. Jimmy Bivins
39. Eddie Machen
40. Peter Jackson
41. Ike Ibeabuchi
42. Billy Conn
43. Roland LaStarza
44. Ray Mercer
45. Ron Lyle
46. Jimmy Young
47. Jim Braddock
48. Primo Carnera
49. Billy Miske
50. Michael Moorer
Some guys who just missed making the list: Zora Folley, Buster Douglas, George Godfrey, Tommy Burns

[Marciano Frazier]

And, having a somewhat embarrassing amount of free time on my hands, I've added up all 50 guys' records against other fighters on the list (in order from best to worst):

1. Rocky Marciano 8-0
2. Gene Tunney 2-0
3. Lennox Lewis 3-0-1
4. Jim Jeffries 7-1
5. Muhammad Ali 14-3
6. Jack Johnson 9-2-1
7. Joe Louis 11-3
8. Harry Wills 18-5-2
9. Sonny Liston 4-2
10-11. Riddick Bowe, Mike Spinks 2-1
12. Evander Holyfield 6-3-1
13. Jack Dempsey 4-2-1
14. Ezzard Charles 11-6
15. Joe Frazier 6-4
16. Jimmy Young 3-2
17. George Foreman 4-3
18. Larry Holmes 4-4
19. Ken Norton 3-3
20-21. Ingemar Johansson, Max Baer 2-2
22-23. Jim Braddock, Jess Willard 1-1
24. Jack Sharkey 3-4
25. Sam Langford 15-20-11
26. Jersey Joe Walcott 5-7
27-30. Mike Tyson, Max Schmeling, Elmer Ray, Tom Sharkey 2-3
31. Floyd Patterson 4-7-1
32. Archie Moore 4-7
33. Michael Moorer 1-2
34-35. Bob Fitzsimmons, Jimmy Ellis 2-4
36. Joe Jeanette 6-13-8
37. Sam McVey 5-12-5
38-40. Primo Carnera, Ray Mercer, Eddie Machen 1-3
41. Jerry Quarry 2-7-1
42. Ron Lyle 1-5
43. Jimmy Bivins 2-10
44. Billy Miske 0-2-1
45. Peter Jackson 0-1
44-48. Roland LaStarza, Billy Conn, Tim Witherspoon 0-2
49. Jim Corbett 0-4
50. Ike Ibeabuchi 0-0

[sweet_scientist]

Its on the working disk,

Question, there are some fights I cant id on that disk with the Longer versions of the Darcy fights. It has Louis Lewis also. Can you give me a run down on that disk?

Sure:

Georges Carpentier vs. Frank Klaus
Dick Tiger vs. Joey Giardello III
Les Darcy vs. Jim Clabby
Les Darcy vs. Dave Smith
Tony Canzoneri vs. Jimmy McLarnin
Fritzie Zivic vs. Kid McCoy
Joe Louis vs. John Henry Lewis

[Manassa]

Pound-for-pound:

1. Henry Armstrong
2. Harry Greb
3. Ray Robinson
4. Benny Leonard
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Archie Moore
9. Joe Gans
10. Barney Ross

[Sonny's jab]

My top fighters with the last name Yarosz:

1. Teddy Yarosz
2. Eddie Yarosz

Thank you.

Where do you rate Tommy Yarosz ?

[Marciano Frazier]

Where do you rate Tommy Yarosz ?
He was no slouch, but surely he can't be ranked above an incredible undefeated sensation like Eddie! Why, it seems practically the entire welterweight division (literally) was ducking him for nearly four straight years!

[OLD FOGEY]

Remember you asked:



The numbers in brackets were places I placed my top 35 of all-time in April 2005

100 Manny Paciquao
99 Harry Wills
98 Kid McCoy
97 Jeff Fenech
96 Carlos Ortiz
95 Jimmy McLarnin
94 Tony Zale
93 Ted ‘Kid’ Lewis
92 Freddie Welsh
91 Dick Tiger
90 Jeff Chandler
89 James J Corbett
88 Brian Mitchell
87 Wilfredo Gomez
86 Kid Chocolate
85 Marcel Cerdan
84 Joe Frazier
83 Winky Wright
82 Kostya Tszyu
81 Jimmy Carruthers
80 Jack McAuliffe
79 Rinty Monaghan
78 Nicolino Loche
77 Mike Tyson
76 Bob Montgomery
75 Lennox Lewis
74 Young Griffo
73 Aaron Pryor
72 Nino Benvenuti
71 Jim Driscoll
70 Salvador Sanchez
69 Mike McCallum
68 Jack Dempsey
67 Flash Elorde
66 Wilfred Benitez
65 Rocky Marciano
64 Felix Trinidad
63 Abe Attell
62 Antonio Cervantes
61 James J Jeffries
60 Al Brown
59 Eusebio Pedroza
58 Jack Dempsey (The Nonpareil)
57 Evander Holyfield
56 Bob Foster
55 Larry Holmes
54 Stanley Ketchel (19)
53 Michael Spinks
52 Azumah Nelson
51 Ruben Olivares (32)
50 Jose Napoles
49 Pascual Perez
48 Manuel Ortiz
47 Ike Williams
46 Roy Jones Jr (35)
45 Maxie Rosenbloom
44 Jack Johnson
43 Floyd Mayweather Jr
42 Tony Canzoneri
41 George Foreman (34)
40 Eder Jofre (26)
39 Johnny Kilbane
38 Kid Gavilan
37 Tommy Loughran
36 Ricardo Lopez
35 Alexis Arguello (24)
34 Bernard Hopkins
33 Carlos Zarate (25)
32 (Barbados) Joe Walcott
31 Tommy Hearns (31)
30 Marvin Hagler (30)
29 Pancho Villa (21)
28 Emile Griffith
27 Joe Louis (29)
26 Joe Gans (33)
25 Gene Tunney (28)
24 Terry McGovern
23 George Dixon (27)
22 Georges Carpentier (4)
21 Oscar de la Hoya (22)
20 Pernell Whitaker (23)
19 Julio Cesar Chavez (15)
18 Sammy Langford (9)
17 Barney Ross
16 Ray Leonard (13)
15 Carlos Monzon (12)
14 Ezzard Charles (17)
13 Bob Fitzsimmons (20)
12 Benny Leonard (16)
11 Charley Burley (10)
10 Muhammad Ali (11)
9 Harry Grebb (18)
8 Jimmy Wilde (7)
7 Sandy Saddler (5)
6 Willie Pep (6)
5 Mickey Walker (14)
4 Archie Moore (8)
3 Roberto Duran (3)
2 Henry Armstrong (2)
1 Ray Robinson (1)


Top 40 Heavies

40: Cleveland Williams
39: Zora Foley
38: Tommy Burns
37: Michael Spinks
36: James Douglas
35: James Braddock
34: George Godfrey
33: Jimmy Bivens
32: Max Baer
31: Jerry Quarry
30: Tim Whitherspoon
29: Bob Fitzsimmons
28: Jack Sharkey
27: Sam McVey
26: Joe Jeanette
25: Vitali Klitschko
24: Peter Jackson
23: Ken Norton
22: Joe Walcott (Jersey)
21: Gene Tunney
20: Riddick Bowe
19: Floyd Patterson
18: Max Schmeling
17: Ezzard Charles
16: Sammy Langford
15: Harry Wills
14: James Corbett
13: Sonny Liston
12: Joe Frazier
11: Mike Tyson
10: Lennox Lewis
9 James Jeffries
8: Jack Dempsey
7: Rocky Marciano
6: Evander Holyfield
5: Larry Holmes
4: Jack Johnson
3: George Foreman
2: Joe Louis
1: Muhammad Ali

Georges Carpentier rated a better fighter than Joe Louis? And Gene Tunney?

[OLD FOGEY]

And, having a somewhat embarrassing amount of free time on my hands, I've added up all 50 guys' records against other fighters on the list (in order from best to worst):

1. Rocky Marciano 8-0
2. Gene Tunney 2-0
3. Lennox Lewis 3-0-1
4. Jim Jeffries 7-1
5. Muhammad Ali 14-3
6. Jack Johnson 9-2-1
7. Joe Louis 11-3
8. Harry Wills 18-5-2
9. Sonny Liston 4-2
10-11. Riddick Bowe, Mike Spinks 2-1
12. Evander Holyfield 6-3-1
13. Jack Dempsey 4-2-1
14. Ezzard Charles 11-6
15. Joe Frazier 6-4
16. Jimmy Young 3-2
17. George Foreman 4-3
18. Larry Holmes 4-4
19. Ken Norton 3-3
20-21. Ingemar Johansson, Max Baer 2-2
22-23. Jim Braddock, Jess Willard 1-1
24. Jack Sharkey 3-4
25. Sam Langford 15-20-11
26. Jersey Joe Walcott 5-7
27-30. Mike Tyson, Max Schmeling, Elmer Ray, Tom Sharkey 2-3
31. Floyd Patterson 4-7-1
32. Archie Moore 4-7
33. Michael Moorer 1-2
34-35. Bob Fitzsimmons, Jimmy Ellis 2-4
36. Joe Jeanette 6-13-8
37. Sam McVey 5-12-5
38-40. Primo Carnera, Ray Mercer, Eddie Machen 1-3
41. Jerry Quarry 2-7-1
42. Ron Lyle 1-5
43. Jimmy Bivins 2-10
44. Billy Miske 0-2-1
45. Peter Jackson 0-1
44-48. Roland LaStarza, Billy Conn, Tim Witherspoon 0-2
49. Jim Corbett 0-4
50. Ike Ibeabuchi 0-0

As I would expect, your list is reasonable, and thanks for the records. I would have one question. Considering that Harry Wills has more victories over your top 50 than anyone, do you think you might be rating him too low? He seems a strong candidate for the top 15 or perhaps even top 10.

Also, could you explain your rating of Dempsey over Jeffries, Johnson, and Liston. There have been so many recent negative threads about Dempsey that I would like to hear your positive spin.

[TBooze]

:huh This seems a bit inconsistent. Why would Marciano rank higher than Jeffries at heavyweight, but lower pound-for-pound? Jeffries was considerably bigger than Marciano.

Because the Heavyweight list was done in 2004; the Pound for pound one in 2007; I did put that disclaimer down.;)

[TBooze]

Georges Carpentier rated a better fighter than Joe Louis? And Gene Tunney?

Pound for pound yes; Carpentier was alleged to of won French pro titles in all of the classic eight. He won European titles from Lightweight up; World titles from Middleweight up and The Light Heavyweight Championship of the World; he was without peer in Europe for perhaps 10 years and competed with everyone worldwide with the exceptions of the absolute finest Heavies.

[OLD FOGEY]

Pound for pound yes; Carpentier was alleged to of won French pro titles in all of the classic eight. He won European titles from Lightweight up; World titles from Middleweight up and The Light Heavyweight Championship of the World; he was without peer in Europe for perhaps 12 years and competed with everyone worldwide with the exceptions of the absolute finest Heavies.

Okay.

[OLD FOGEY]

bump.

[Marciano Frazier]

NOTE: I don't know why the above frowny face is in the corner over my post and am uncertain of how to get rid of it. It isn't meant as a reflection on your post.

As I would expect, your list is reasonable, and thanks for the records. I would have one question. Considering that Harry Wills has more victories over your top 50 than anyone, do you think you might be rating him too low? He seems a strong candidate for the top 15 or perhaps even top 10.
Well, of course numerical records must be taken along with anecdotal data at all times, and even if I were to do a somewhat deeper statistical analysis, I'm not sure he'd come out quite so favorably. That is, if we were to take the first list, which was done more subjectively, and use it as a "seeding" list for a second one, which would count win-loss records against other fighters on the list balanced with where on the list they were ranked, I don't think Wills would look quite so impressive anymore, because all of his wins were over opponents ranked outside the top 20, whereas guys like Ali, Louis, Marciano, Foreman, Frazier, Holyfield, etc. beat people who were "seeded" inside the top 20 and even top 15. And anecdotally, I think Wills really has a pretty padded record here, because, as I say, all of his wins are over sub-top-20 guys, and in addition, the vast majority are against them when they were significantly past their best.

Wills was 5-4-1 in his first 10 fights against Langford, McVey and Jeanette- he was going essentially even-up against them when they were prime or a little bit on the decline- and then he had a 13-0-1 run in the later teens through 20s against long past-prime versions of them who he kept beating down long past the point of monotony.

Also, could you explain your rating of Dempsey over Jeffries, Johnson, and Liston. There have been so many recent negative threads about Dempsey that I would like to hear your positive spin.
Yes, a large clique of members on this forum seems to have become practically rabid in its relentless, vitriolic attack on Dempsey's legacy.

For starters, let's have a look at the positives:

First, Dempsey's run in 1918-1919 is, in my opinion, one of the single best streaks ever. It was arguably even more dominant and impressive than what a peak Mike Tyson did. The sheer consistency, brutality and dominance with which he was demolishing quality fighter after quality fighter in that period, all culminating in the Willard match, was truly something to behold. Smith, Brennan, Fulton, Levinsky, Morris, Willard- he just rolled right over these guys, one after another after another, usually in a single round and in the kind of fashion where it barely seems he lost a second of the entire fight. Miske ran him close, but Dempsey had the edge, and wiped him out as champion. Imagine if someone came around right now and blasted out Valuev, Toney, Liakhovich, Ibragimov and Wlad, all in the first few rounds and without even looking like they could touch him, and all within a year-and-a-half. It wouldn't be long before that guy would be cropping up on all-time lists.

Second, although his run as champion is the source of great controversy and is full of terrible holes, the fact is that it does consist of five consecutive quality wins over legitimate name opponents. Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, Firpo- that is not a bad line-up, and Dempsey beat all five, with four knockouts and one lopsided decision.

And third, although it was, of course, his own fault he had been inactive for over three years, what Dempsey was able to do in his comeback really still has a lot on the positive side insofar as it reflects on him as a fighter and adds to his legacy. As a considerably deteriorated fighter who had fought only once in the last four years, he still managed to knock out Sharkey, a man I consider a top 25 all-time heavyweight who was in his prime and who was on a hot streak and having one of his best performances, and then in his next outing, he came within a whisker of doing the same to Tunney, who is one of my top 20, even arguably being robbed. The fact that he was still that good- good enough to take out the two men who were probably the best heavyweights in the world and top 25 of all time- while old, rusty beyond compare and significantly deteriorated says a lot about just how good Dempsey was in his prime.

I do think there is plenty of merit in a lot of the attacks which are frequently forwarded to discredit Dempsey. However, I believe that, by and large, many other champions who are- at least at the moment, thanks to the virtual mob mentality that seems to have stirred up in the anti-Dempsey faction- less heavily-scrutinized can be just as validly criticized in some of the same areas, or in other ones. Ultimately, I consider Dempsey one of the top five of all time in a head-to-head sense, but only at the fringes of the top 10 in terms of his accomplishments and career in the ring, and thus, since my list is meant to be more or less a balance of those two things, he fits fairly neatly into my #7 spot.

[TBooze]

Okay.

:| I want to debate!;)

[Marciano Frazier]

Bump.

[couch13]

Top Ten Heavy's
10. Jim Corbett
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Larry Holmes
7. Rocky Marciano
6. Gene Tunney
5. Muhammad Ali
4. Jim Jefferies
3. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
1. Jack Dempsey

Top Ten P4P
10. Kid McCoy
9. Willie Pep
8. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
7. Jack Dempsey
6. Henry Armstrong
5. Harry Greb
4. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Bob Fitzsimmons

[TBooze]

Top Ten P4P
10. Kid McCoy
9. Willie Pep
8. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
7. Jack Dempsey
6. Henry Armstrong
5. Harry Greb
4. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Bob Fitzsimmons

Who do you reckon will be the new USA President elect at the end of the year......... Nixon or Kennedy?;)

[JohnThomas1]

Top Ten P4P
10. Kid McCoy
9. Willie Pep
8. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
7. Jack Dempsey
6. Henry Armstrong
5. Harry Greb
4. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Bob Fitzsimmons

On what basis do Pep, SRR and Armstrong make the list?

[sweet_scientist]

Who do you reckon will be the new USA President elect at the end of the year......... Nixon or Kennedy?;)

:lol:

[sweet_scientist]

On what basis do Pep, SRR and Armstrong make the list?

I'm guessing they are the names of some obscure fighters pre 1900.

[JohnThomas1]

I'm guessing they are the names of some obscure fighters pre 1900.

They are definitely oddballs in that lot

:yep

[teeto]

Top Ten Heavy's
10. Jim Corbett
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Larry Holmes
7. Rocky Marciano
6. Gene Tunney
5. Muhammad Ali
4. Jim Jefferies
3. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
1. Jack Dempsey

Top Ten P4P
10. Kid McCoy
9. Willie Pep
8. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
7. Jack Dempsey
6. Henry Armstrong
5. Harry Greb
4. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
3. Sam Langford
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Bob Fitzsimmons


:patsch :patsch :yikes

[Bill1234]

Top 10 Heavies:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

Lennox was recently bumped up in my list, so it messed the list up a little, still working it out.

I am still thinking over my P4P list.

[OLD FOGEY]

Top 10 Heavies:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Larry Holmes
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Jack Johnson
7. George Foreman
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sonny Liston
10. Joe Frazier

Lennox was recently bumped up in my list, so it messed the list up a little, still working it out.

I am still thinking over my P4P list.

One of the better lists I have seen. Just one question. Why no Jeffries?

[couch13]

On what basis do Pep, SRR and Armstrong make the list?

SRR: Fought and beat guys bigger than himself (his skills transcend weight)

Armstrong: Triple Crown Champion Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight.

Pep: It was late and as I think about it while awake it should have been Walcott (the lightweight not the heavyweight) he fought and won against all weight classes.

[couch13]

Who do you reckon will be the new USA President elect at the end of the year......... Nixon or Kennedy?;)

Actually I was thinking of voting for Teddy and his Bullmoose Party. ;)

[OLD FOGEY]

:| I want to debate!;)

All right. On Carpentier being rated ahead of Louis or Tunney--I see your point about him dominating European boxing but he was a pioneer at the point in which European boxing was just getting started. Who did he have to defeat to win French championships from fly (which in fact means he was champion as an inexperienced boy) all the way up to heavyweight (and Carp was never a heavy). This might be more a sign of weakness than competition. His record against world class fighters, such as Papke, Klaus, Dixie Kid, Jeannette, Dempsey, Siki, Gibbons, Tunney, and Loughran was of failure more often than success. His big wins were over the frequently defeated Battling Levinsky and the much smaller Ted Kid Lewis as well as ordinary Brit heavies Wells and Beckett.

On balance, I see no way his spotty record against top competition all the way through his career could justify placing him over Joe Louis, who in fact defeated better European competition than Carp did, or Tunney, among many others.

[couch13]

:patsch :patsch :yikes

Well that was a well thought out, intelligent and informative post. My eyes are opened as I gaze upon the holy grail of boxing wisdom.

[couch13]

I'm guessing they are the names of some obscure fighters pre 1900.

I guess I should explain how I measure P4P. In my mind the best measuring stick for a P4P fighter is if they had the skills to overcome weight. While this is then slanted to smaller guys it still gives a measurement to view P4P as opposed to projecting subjectively how they would have done at any certain weight.

[Marciano Frazier]

All right. On Carpentier being rated ahead of Louis or Tunney--I see your point about him dominating European boxing but he was a pioneer at the point in which European boxing was just getting started. Who did he have to defeat to win French championships from fly (which in fact means he was champion as an inexperienced boy) all the way up to heavyweight (and Carp was never a heavy). This might be more a sign of weakness than competition. His record against world class fighters, such as Papke, Klaus, Dixie Kid, Jeannette, Dempsey, Siki, Gibbons, Tunney, and Loughran was of failure more often than success. His big wins were over the frequently defeated Battling Levinsky and the much smaller Ted Kid Lewis as well as ordinary Brit heavies Wells and Beckett.

On balance, I see no way his spotty record against top competition all the way through his career could justify placing him over Joe Lous, who in fact defeated better European competition than Carp did, or Tunney, among many others.
I agree. Carpentier never had the kind of elite-level success, in any weight class, that these guys did.
By the way, what did you think of my response to your questions?

[teeto]

Well that was a well thought out, intelligent and informative post. My eyes are opened as I gaze upon the holy grail of boxing wisdom.
Alright , just please tell , why do you have Fitzimmons above Greb, Robinson, Langford and Ali. You also have both Dempseys above Pep aswell

[OLD FOGEY]

I agree. Carpentier never had the kind of elite-level success, in any weight class, that these guys did.
By the way, what did you think of my response to your questions?

On Wills:
1. Beating fading opponents--he also beat all of them near their primes-most of the other men on your list probably got an opponent or two past their best--I don't think that much of this criticism.
2. Beat the same men over and over--I think this is much more valid. I don't think beating one top man five times is quite the same as beating five different top men.
On balance, as usual, you made a good case.

On Dempsey:
1. He blew a lot of men, some top men like Fulton, some good men who were past their best, and some tomato-cans, out in 1918-1919, but I wouldn't consider this the best run ever because of the draw with Miske, who was, after all, probably the best man he was facing.
Otherwise I agree, and I also think Dempsey's performances in 1927 against Sharkey and Tunney not only add to, but are vital to, his resume. I think these were his two toughest heavyweight opponents and had he flopped, he would have to be marked down quite a bit.

[TBooze]

Actually I was thinking of voting for Teddy and his Bullmoose Party. ;)

:blood I am getting more and more suspicious of you.;)

[TBooze]

All right. On Carpentier being rated ahead of Louis or Tunney--I see your point about him dominating European boxing but he was a pioneer at the point in which European boxing was just getting started. Who did he have to defeat to win French championships from fly (which in fact means he was champion as an inexperienced boy) all the way up to heavyweight (and Carp was never a heavy). This might be more a sign of weakness than competition. His record against world class fighters, such as Papke, Klaus, Dixie Kid, Jeannette, Dempsey, Siki, Gibbons, Tunney, and Loughran was of failure more often than success. His big wins were over the frequently defeated Battling Levinsky and the much smaller Ted Kid Lewis as well as ordinary Brit heavies Wells and Beckett.

On balance, I see no way his spotty record against top competition all the way through his career could justify placing him over Joe Lous, who in fact defeated better European competition than Carp did, or Tunney, among many others.

But you hit the nail on the head at the start, he was a pioneer and achieved records that no one has beaten yet, that is an amazing feat for a pioneer.

Carpentier IMO, is one of them fighters in history you use as a yard stick.

Do not get me wrong Tunney kicks his regal French butt, ditto pound for pound Louis, but Carpentier made boxing in Western Europe popular, and helped directly or indirectly the future fighters from that area, and thus a high rating on a Pound for pound list that by default measures intangibles is justified IMO.

I should not of poked the cobra; because my response makes me sound like a pretentious arse.:oops:

[Bill1234]

One of the better lists I have seen. Just one question. Why no Jeffries?

Thank you, I don't know enough about Jeffries to rank him. I know that he was a helluva fighter, and strong as an ox, but I don't know enough about his resume or traits besides his strength and stamina. The same goes with Sullivan and Fitzsimmons (I do rank him on a P4P list though).

[OLD FOGEY]

But you hit the nail on the head at the start, he was a pioneer and achieved records that no one has beaten yet, that is an amazing feat for a pioneer.

Carpentier IMO, is one of them fighters in history you use as a yard stick.

Do not get me wrong Tunney kicks his regal French butt, ditto pound for pound Louis, but Carpentier made boxing in Western Europe popular, and helped directly or indirectly the future fighters from that area, and thus a high rating on a Pound for pound list that by default measures intangibles is justified IMO.

I should not of poked the cobra; because my response makes me sound like a pretentious arse.:oops:

Okay. There is no question Carpentier was critical in boxing history by spreading boxing to the European continent.

[sweet_scientist]

But you hit the nail on the head at the start, he was a pioneer and achieved records that no one has beaten yet, that is an amazing feat for a pioneer.

Carpentier IMO, is one of them fighters in history you use as a yard stick.

Do not get me wrong Tunney kicks his regal French butt, ditto pound for pound Louis, but Carpentier made boxing in Western Europe popular, and helped directly or indirectly the future fighters from that area, and thus a high rating on a Pound for pound list that by default measures intangibles is justified IMO.

I should not of poked the cobra; because my response makes me sound like a pretentious arse.:oops:

I suppose it depends on how much emphasis you put on those type of 'intangibles' because when it comes to resume and fighting ability, I don't think he merits a top 100 spot myself.

[couch13]

Alright , just please tell , why do you have Fitzimmons above Greb, Robinson, Langford and Ali. You also have both Dempseys above Pep aswell

Fitzsimmons beat Nonpareil Jack Dempsey for the Middleweight Championship, then beat Jim Corbett for the Heavyweight Championship while weighing 16 pounds less than Corbett, then won the Light Heavyweight Championship. He beat guys who weighed alot more than him and fought well into his fourties winning titles at that time. Thats why.

They're both better than Pep

[TBooze]

I suppose it depends on how much emphasis you put on those type of 'intangibles' because when it comes to resume and fighting ability, I don't think he merits a top 100 spot myself.

No he does not; but as pioneer who brought popularity to the sport in western Europe, where he was a was a sporting hero as well as being a worldwide superstar, he had few peers. And his achievements going up the weights are without precedent, and unlikely to be broken or indeed equalled anytime soon.

[teeto]

Fitzsimmons beat Nonpareil Jack Dempsey for the Middleweight Championship, then beat Jim Corbett for the Heavyweight Championship while weighing 16 pounds less than Corbett, then won the Light Heavyweight Championship. He beat guys who weighed alot more than him and fought well into his fourties winning titles at that time. Thats why.

They're both better than Pep
Robinson and Ali and Greb are above Fitz , no doubt. Robinson beat the best in a golden era of MWs when past his best.

Pep is better than both Dempseys aswell

[couch13]

Robinson and Ali and Greb are above Fitz , no doubt. Robinson beat the best in a golden era of MWs when past his best.
Expert analysis on why they're better I applaud your ability to pick apart the minute details and create a convincing agrument.

Pep is better than both Dempseys aswell
Pep never fought guys 15 pounds heavier than himself both the Dempsey's did and they won while doing it.

[brooklyn1550]

Top Ten Heavy's
10. Jim Corbett
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Larry Holmes
7. Rocky Marciano
6. Gene Tunney
5. Muhammad Ali
4. Jim Jefferies
3. Jack Johnson
2. Joe Louis
1. Jack Dempsey


Please, explain why Jack Dempsey and Jim Jeffries are above Muhammad Ali.

[couch13]

Please, explain why Jack Dempsey and Jim Jeffries are above Muhammad Ali.

They both had better skills than he did. Sure his style worked for him, but he had little defense other than jump out of the way and lay on ropes and get punched in the body. While I admit to Ali being faster than both (though with Jefferies it might not be true, the guy ran a 10 second 100m) with faster hands, but thats it. Both of them hit way harder and both had chins comperable to Ali's. Also they both had very good defensive skills to match thier offensive capabilites. And, both of them beat men comperable to Ali, Jefferies beat Corbett, Dempsey outboxed Tommy Gibbons after a long layoff and when out of his prime caught Gene Tunney one of the greatest pure boxers of all time.

[Manassa]

Yea, Jeffries only got his nose smashed and cheekbone broken by a shorter and lighter opponent.

[couch13]

Yea, Jeffries only got his nose smashed and cheekbone broken by a shorter and lighter opponent.

And Ali only got smashed and hammered into the canvas by a shorter and lighter opponent.

[Manassa]

And Ali only got smashed and hammered into the canvas by a shorter and lighter opponent.

... Didn't get his bones broke by a supermiddleweight though, did he. So much for Jeffries' defence.

[couch13]

... Didn't get his bones broke by a supermiddleweight though, did he. So much for Jeffries' defence.

Your talking about Bob Fitzsimmons the former BLACKSMITH that will make you stronger than hell. Besides look at his upperbody to lowerbody proportionality, the dudes upperbody is comprable to any heavyweights. Besides, Jefferies won that fight, proving that he has a chin from hell.

[Manassa]

Your talking about Bob Fitzsimmons the former BLACKSMITH that will make you stronger than hell. Besides look at his upperbody to lowerbody proportionality, the dudes upperbody is comprable to any heavyweights. Besides, Jefferies won that fight, proving that he has a chin from hell.

No, it proves he has a shite defence and a high tolerance for pain, but not necessarily a great chin. If Lamon Brewster took the punches of Jeff Lacy, would you start saying he has the best chin of all time?

[couch13]

No, it proves he has a shite defence and a high tolerance for pain, but not necessarily a great chin. If Lamon Brewster took the punches of Jeff Lacy, would you start saying he has the best chin of all time?

He took the punches on the face and didn't get KO'd from Bob Fitzsimmons that is one hell of a chin. And, no I didn't say he had the best chin of all time (though it is a good one).

[Manassa]

He took the punches on the face and didn't get KO'd from Bob Fitzsimmons that is one hell of a chin. And, no I didn't say he had the best chin of all time (though it is a good one).

Why is it impressive to you that Jeffries took the punches of Fitzsimmons? He should have been avoiding them or knocking Fitzsimmons out. Imagine if he was faced by a harder hitting, more durable fighter like Sonny Liston.

[JohnThomas1]

If i didn't know better i'd think there was an alias in here


:lol:

[Holmes' Jab]

Top 10 HW:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Larry Holmes
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Rocky Marciano
6. Sonny Liston
7. Joe Frazier
8. Mike Tyson
9. Jack Johnson
10. Evander Holyfield

[ChrisPontius]

Pep never fought guys 15 pounds heavier than himself both the Dempsey's did and they won while doing it.

Stupid comparison.

15 pounds for Pep (a feather) is a huge difference. 15 pounds, while a significant difference, is much more overcomeable for a heavyweight.

[Holmes' Jab]

Top 10 at MW:

1. Marvin Hagler
2. Carlos Monzon
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Roy Jones Jr
5. Benard Hopkins
6. Harry Greb
7. Stanley Ketchel
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. Mickey Walker
10. Bob Fitzsimmons

[Holmes' Jab]

Top 20 at WW:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Jose Napoles
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Tommy Hearns
7. Emile Griffith
8. Mickey Walker
9. Barney Ross
10. Joe Walcott

HM's: Pernell Whitaker, Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran and Carmen Basilio.

[JohnThomas1]

Top 20 at WW:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Jose Napoles
4. Henry Armstrong
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Tommy Hearns
7. Emile Griffith
8. Mickey Walker
9. Barney Ross
10. Joe Walcott

HM's: Pernell Whitaker, Wilfred Benitez, Roberto Duran and Carmen Basilio.

Tho it doesn't reach 20 that's a superb list man.

[Holmes' Jab]

Thanks mate, I don't think Napoles really gets the level of credit he deserves, he's truely underrated (especially these days) and is just a tad below the two Robbo's IMO. The mid-portion of the list is a close call.

I'm a huge fan of Benitez by the way. He was very impressive on film: was fundamentally very good, supremely skilled, had very respectible power and was masterful defensively. A beast head-to-head too IMO, he just misses out on my 'elite' 10. Great fighter and true gent.

[JohnThomas1]

Thanks mate, I don't think Napoles really gets the level of credit he deserves, he's truely underrated (especially these days) and is just a tad below the two Robbo's IMO. The mid-portion of the list is a close call.

I'm a huge fan of Benitez by the way. He was very impressive on film: was fundamentally very good, supremely skilled, had very respectible power and was masterful defensively. A beast head-to-head too IMO, he just misses out on my 'elite' 10. Great fighter and true gent.
Napoles is indeed as smooth as butter. Brilliant skills and great fighter.

Benitez gets a bit underrated mowadays, indeed.

[couch13]

Why is it impressive to you that Jeffries took the punches of Fitzsimmons? He should have been avoiding them or knocking Fitzsimmons out. Imagine if he was faced by a harder hitting, more durable fighter like Sonny Liston.

No, your trying to use that he got his face broken by a middleweight to show that Jim wasn't a good fighter, I'm pointing out that Fitzsimmons, one of the hardest hitters in heavyweight history, wasn't able to knock him out. In case you forgot, he did knock Fitzsimmons out. Once again in case you forgot, he also only lost once and that was too Jack Johnson when he was out of his prime and out of practice.

[couch13]

Stupid comparison.

15 pounds for Pep (a feather) is a huge difference. 15 pounds, while a significant difference, is much more overcomeable for a heavyweight.

Since when did weight become exponential as opposed to linear? Besides, the only heavyweight we're talking about here is the one who overcame a 65 pound weight desparity.

[Manassa]

No, your trying to use that he got his face broken by a middleweight to show that Jim wasn't a good fighter, I'm pointing out that Fitzsimmons, one of the hardest hitters in heavyweight history, wasn't able to knock him out. In case you forgot, he did knock Fitzsimmons out. Once again in case you forgot, he also only lost once and that was too Jack Johnson when he was out of his prime and out of practice.

I also forgot that Jeffries carried a large brown bear on his shoulders from British Columbia to New Orleans before beating it to a pulp with his 'bear' hands.

[ChrisPontius]

Since when did weight become exponential as opposed to linear? Besides, the only heavyweight we're talking about here is the one who overcame a 65 pound weight desparity.

:patsch

Why do you think there are weight classes for every 8 pounds or so in the lower divisions, but from lightheavyweight it's 15 pounds per new division?



Do you think a 815 pound bear has a significant advantage over an 800 pound bear ?


And yeah, he overcame 65 pound weight disparity, against a 37 year old fighter with horrible skills, who was overweight and had been inactive for nearly 3 years.

[janitor]

And yeah, he overcame 65 pound weight disparity, against a 37 year old fighter with horrible skills, who was overweight and had been inactive for nearly 3 years.

Overcame is not the first word that springs to mind for me.

[McGrain]

Overcame is not the first word that springs to mind for me.

:lol:

[ChrisPontius]

Overcame is not the first word that springs to mind for me.

:oops:

That was dutch-english, i.e. literally translating the words and assuming it works.

[Mendoza]

Yea, Jeffries only got his nose smashed and cheekbone broken by a shorter and lighter opponent.

But Ali was knocked down, and might have been TKO'd if not for Dundee's tricks by a shorter, and lighter oppoent too.

[Mendoza]

I also forgot that Jeffries carried a large brown bear on his shoulders from British Columbia to New Orleans before beating it to a pulp with his 'bear' hands.

Actually Jeffries did fight a bear once.

Read the link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Manassa]

He got battered by a bear cub. I knew that already.

[janitor]

Actually Jeffries did fight a bear once.

Read the link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Bob Fitzsimmons had a pet lion called Nero.

[OLD FOGEY]

Actually Jeffries did fight a bear once.

Read the link:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

It appears the bear won rather easily, though. It is interesting, if Jeff is just not making things up, that Fitz sews up the wound rather than calling a physician in right away. Animal bites are always very grave threats for infection.

[Mendoza]

It appears the bear won rather easily, though. It is interesting, if Jeff is just not making things up, that Fitz sews up the wound rather than calling a physician in right away. Animal bites are always very grave threats for infection.

I do not think the doctors of the time washed or cleaned their instruments as they do today. They were mostly ignorant to infections, and diseases form open wounds.

The story does mention worry of infection though. What amazes me is Jeffries and Fitzsimmons became friends after Fitzsimmons alleged glove-tampering incident in their last fight. It is an aqcuation that some of Fitz’s handlers admitted, and Fitzsimmons himself never denied it.

Perhaps a common bond the two had is neither liked Corbett. Corbett was a bit of an ass, a crybaby, and a loud mouth.

Sorry to go off track in a lists type of thread.

[OLD FOGEY]

I do not think the doctors of the time washed or cleaned their instruments as they do today. They were mostly ignorant to infections, and diseases form open wounds.

The story does mention worry of infection though. What amazes me is Jeffries and Fitzsimmons became friends after Fitzsimmons alleged glove-tampering incident in their last fight. It is an aqcuation that some of Fitz’s handlers admitted, and Fitzsimmons himself never denied it.

Perhaps a common bond the two had is neither liked Corbett. Corbett was a bit of an ass, a crybaby, and a loud mouth.

Sorry to go off track in a lists type of thread.

I don't believe the glove story. Believe it or not, there were papers really pushing the idea that the Jeff-Fitz fight of 1902 was a fix despite the brutal punishment Jeff took. I think Jeff came up with the glove story to deflect this type of cynicism and Fitz understood. I don't believe Jeff would have knowingly allowed Fitz to load his gloves and it seems unlikely the two of them would have become good friends afterward.

[TBooze]

But Ali was knocked down, and might have been TKO'd if not for Dundee's tricks by a shorter, and lighter oppoent too.

If you are talking about the first Cooper fight, it is a myth. The BBC re-run the orginal live feed and proved that the actual gap between the rounds was 1 minute and 10 seconds, and Ali/Clay's glove was not changed.;)

[Mendoza]

If you are talking about the first Cooper fight, it is a myth. The BBC re-run the orginal live feed and proved that the actual gap between the rounds was 1 minute and 10 seconds, and Ali/Clay's glove was not changed.;)

Absoltue BS. I have seen Dundee on inteview right after the fight, and he clealry says there is a 3-4 minute delay between rounds.
Dundee says a person was sent back to look for a new glove, but none was found, so they used the gloves they had.

Furthermore, Dundee cheated by using smelling salts ( which can be seen on flim ) to wake Ali up. Smelling salts are illegal in Brittish boxing.

Dundee also entered the ring to help escort Ali to his corner. I'm not sure if this was legal or not.

[TBooze]

Absoltue BS. I have seen Dundee on inteview right after the fight, and he clealry says there is a 3-4 minute delay between rounds.
Dundee says a person was sent back to look for a new glove, but none was found, so they used the gloves they had.

Furthermore, Dundee cheated by using smelling salts ( which can be seen on flim ) to wake Ali up. Smelling salts are illegal in Brittish boxing.

Dundee also entered the ring to help escort Ali to his corner. I'm not sure if this was legal or not.

The BBC played the live feed; the gap between the round lasted 70 seconds; watch the next time ESPN show it (Channel 442). It is a myth that benefits nearly everyone, so everyone played along.;)

[couch13]

:patsch

Why do you think there are weight classes for every 8 pounds or so in the lower divisions, but from lightheavyweight it's 15 pounds per new division?



Do you think a 815 pound bear has a significant advantage over an 800 pound bear ?


And yeah, he overcame 65 pound weight disparity, against a 37 year old fighter with horrible skills, who was overweight and had been inactive for nearly 3 years.

Scientifically speaking smaller guys have a far greater strength to size ratio than big men, which makes up for the fifteen pound weight differences. To be perfectly honest, while I tend to consider beating heavier men consistantly to be a good measure for P2P, I don't consider 15 Ilbs to matter as much as skill or just strength in general.

[couch13]

Stupid comparison.

15 pounds for Pep (a feather) is a huge difference. 15 pounds, while a significant difference, is much more overcomeable for a heavyweight.

Didn't think of this till now, Nonpareil Jack Dempsey was a lightweight and he beat guys who outweighed him by 25 pounds

[couch13]

The BBC played the live feed; the gap between the round lasted 70 seconds; watch the next time ESPN show it (Channel 442). It is a myth that benefits nearly everyone, so everyone played along.;)

I fail to see how a rumor of cheating helps angelo dundee and muhammad ali. Care to clarify?

[RoccoMarciano]

:huh This seems a bit inconsistent. Why would Marciano rank higher than Jeffries at heavyweight, but lower pound-for-pound? Jeffries was considerably bigger than Marciano.

It is VERY inconsistent! I scanned through the thread, and the only reasoning for it that I ever discovered is that the rater must have changed "this or that, at one time or other". What the change was based upon, and why they are still posting things they now, MAY, believe to be incorrect is a great mystery to me.

Maybe I should post a bunch of lists that don't match and see what the response would/should be :lol:

[TBooze]

I fail to see how a rumor of cheating helps angelo dundee and muhammad ali. Care to clarify?

I said nearly everyone. Dundee made his name off of it in this country. The mainstream fan knows him as the Ali trainer who ripped his glove to save his fighter from a KO. Which at best is a half truth. Dundee always brought this up in interviews in this country, when flogging books or his fighters; that is how he benefitted.

Even indirectly Ali benefits from publicity, remember theory there is only one think worse than bad publicity......... none!;)

[ChrisPontius]

Didn't think of this till now, Nonpareil Jack Dempsey was a lightweight and he beat guys who outweighed him by 25 pounds

Big deal. Jack Dempsey (the HW) beat guys who outweighed him by 60 pounds!!!!!!!!

[couch13]

Big deal. Jack Dempsey (the HW) beat guys who outweighed him by 60 pounds!!!!!!!!

Out of curiosity, what's it like on the short bus? The point was that small fighters can overcome weight just as well as a heavyweight can. BTW you stated that willard was overweight for his fight, where in all of hell did you get an idea like that. The guy is descriped for the fight as being lean and muscular and I definately get that impression watching the video.

[ChrisPontius]

Well, when he was still a bit young he was a lean 225lbs for Moran. After sitting 3 years on the title, you can be pretty sure that he had not gained those 20 lbs by lifting weights, but rather by eating, drinking and partying with his title belt.


The description of him was ridiculous really. He was described as some sort of monster at the peak of his powers, while he was 37 years old, inactive for 3 years, over his best weight and never had much boxing skill to start with.


But of course, with the limited availability of information back then, hardly anyone would know whether it's true or not, so he could make all sorts of these statements in his autobiography and everybody would eat it like candy, enhancing his legend. The films only came out decades later, at watchable speed.

[couch13]

Well, when he was still a bit young he was a lean 225lbs for Moran. After sitting 3 years on the title, you can be pretty sure that he had not gained those 20 lbs by lifting weights, but rather by eating, drinking and partying with his title belt.


The description of him was ridiculous really. He was described as some sort of monster at the peak of his powers, while he was 37 years old, inactive for 3 years, over his best weight and never had much boxing skill to start with.


But of course, with the limited availability of information back then, hardly anyone would know whether it's true or not, so he could make all sorts of these statements in his autobiography and everybody would eat it like candy, enhancing his legend. The films only came out decades later, at watchable speed.

For a 6'6 dude to weigh 245 is like a 6' dude weighing 200, its pretty freakin normal.

No, I didn't, it called him akward, old, slow and not very skilled, but it said he was lean and muscular. Also, watch the video, see how skinny he looks.