Frazier Nearly Destoryed Ali -

[McGrain]

And brought the very best out of the Greatest.

What about the other one? What does Frazier bring out of Joe Louis?

[RAMPAGE0017]

What about the other one? What does Frazier bring out of Joe Louis?


A broken jaw, and a stoppage in the mid-rounds, I believe. :yep



In all honesty, I give Louis credit for doing what he's done in his time, but I'm just not big enough of a believer in him to think he would be able to beat many fighters who followed decades after his time in the sport. Definitely not Frazier.

[garymcfall]

Frazier would give hell to Louis as well and might even beat him if they fought once. If they fought 3 times like Frazier and Ali did then I think Frazier would win 2 of them, but i cant see Louis not winning one .

[mr. magoo]

Louis had difficulty with left hookers, Tony Galento being one of them. Frazier would have brought far more speed, power and athleticism to the table than someone like Galento, as well as many of Louis's opponents. You would always have to give Louis a chance, but frankly, I'd have to go with Frazier on this one.

[janitor]

In all honesty, I give Louis credit for doing what he's done in his time, but I'm just not big enough of a believer in him to think he would be able to beat many fighters who followed decades after his time in the sport. Definitely not Frazier.

Louis was a far more complete fighter than any heavyweight from the 70s.

It would be more sensible to say that Frazier was good for his time.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Louis was a far more complete fighter than any heavyweight from the 70s.

It would be more sensible to say that Frazier was good for his time.


I'm not saying he wasn't complete, I just don't believe that the skills Louis possesses would be up to par with decades to follow. Mainly his power. And I don't think his defense is as great as people say, he'd be getting hit very often by Frazier, and I'm sure Frazier hits a hell of a lot harder than Schmeling.

[janitor]

And brought the very best out of the Greatest.

What about the other one? What does Frazier bring out of Joe Louis?

Verry little or verry much depending on how long the fight goes.

Frazier is going to be coming towards Louis and walking into his combinations. This will result in him taking a horific beating. It is quite likley that Louis will achieve a Foreman style stopage in the early rounds.

If he dosnt then Frazier's pressure and workrate will start to take their toll in the mid rounds. In this scenario Louis will have to dig deep to stay in the fight.

[RAMPAGE0017]

Louis had difficulty with left hookers, Tony Galento being one of them. Frazier would have brought far more speed, power and athleticism to the table than someone like Galento, as well as many of Louis's opponents. You would always have to give Louis a chance, but frankly, I'd have to go with Frazier on this one.


I agree.

[janitor]

[quote=RAMPAGE0017]I'm not saying he wasn't complete, I just don't believe that the skills Louis possesses would be up to par with decades to follow.

There has not been a heavyweight since Louis with better all round ofensive skills. Nobody has even come close.

Mainly his power. And

Louis's power is up there with the best in the divisions history.

I don't think his defense is as great as people say,

No heavyweight champion has ever had worse defense than Foreman and look what he did to Frazier.


he'd be getting hit very often by Frazier, and I'm sure Frazier hits a hell of a lot harder than Schmeling.


Don't be too sure of that.

Whether he hit as hard as Schmeling or not he was not a defensive counterpuncher like Schmeling.

[groove]

You can't compare Louis to Foreman style. Fraizer is a better fighter than anyone Louis fought.

[RAMPAGE0017]

[QUOTE]

There has not been a heavyweight since Louis with better all round ofensive skills. Nobody has even come close.

How do you figure? I think Holmes, Ali, Liston, Tyson all had offensive skills equal to Louis', if not better.



Louis's power is up there with the best in the divisions history.

I disagree.



No heavyweight champion has ever had worse defense than Foreman and look what he did to Frazier.

Foreman has a better chin than Louis, and also hits harder, in my judgement. There's also a bigger difference in size, as well.


Don't be too sure of that.

Whether he hit as hard as Schmeling or not he was not a defensive counterpuncher like Schmeling.

No, but he's one of the best pressure fighters the division has seen, and Louis admitted himself that Marciano's style would have given him trouble at any point in his career. And most think Frazier is better than Marciano.

[mr. magoo]

Frazier is going to be coming towards Louis and walking into his combinations. This will result in him taking a horific beating.

Frazier didn't just walk into punches. In fact, his ability to bob, weave and avoid shots was remarkable for a heavyweight. Certainly better than anyone Louis fought.


It is quite likley that Louis will achieve a Foreman style stopage in the early rounds.


How so? Foreman and Louis were nothing like each other stylistically. What's more, George possesed more power than Louis, and still Frazier continued to get up and come back at him. Lastly, Frazier by 1973, wasn't even 100%, as he was developing health problems. Therefore, the version of Frazier who fought Foreman can't be used to make comparrisons when doing dream matchups.

[Sizzle]

Frazier didn't just walk into punches. In fact, his ability to bob, weave and avoid shots was remarkable for a heavyweight. Certainly better than anyone Louis fought.



How so? Foreman and Louis were nothing like each other stylistically. What's more, George possesed more power than Louis, and still Frazier continued to get up and come back at him. Lastly, Frazier by 1973, wasn't even 100%, as he was developing health problems. Therefore, the version of Frazier who fought Foreman can't be used to make comparrisons when doing dream matchups.

Yeh? I especially liked the way Frazier managed to bob, weave and avoid Foremans slow, telegraphed power punches.

Fraziers defense was rubbish, certainly the worst of the heavyweight swarmers - Tyson, Dempsey and even Marciano.

Foreman possessed more power, but Louis was a far better puncher with better punch efficiency, and much more accurate shots.

Would someone please like to explain to me in detail what "skills" Frazier learnt that Louis didn't because he fought two decades later?

Does John Ruiz possess more "skills" than Mike Tyson because he came around later? Will all of todays pro heavyweights learn more skills than Tyson having begun their careers two decades later?

Please.

[janitor]

[quote=RAMPAGE0017]

How do you figure? I think Holmes, Ali, Liston, Tyson all had offensive skills equal to Louis', if not better.


Ali and Holmes did not have anything aproaching Louis's power. Tyson was a superb ofensive fighter but lacked infighting skills and threw long looped punches relative to Louis.


I disagree.


Then you simply don't know Louis.

He broke Max Schmeling's spine, and drove Paulino Uzcduns teeth through his mouthpeice.

He lifted 230 lb Tony Galento off the canvas, spun 250 lb Buddy Baer round 360 degrees lifted Tami Maurelio and threw him with single punches.

Foreman has a better chin than Louis,

Debatable

and also hits harder, in my judgement.

Also debatable


There's also a bigger difference in size, as well.


You mean about 10 lbs?

And most think Frazier is better than Marciano.

Well I don't. I dispute that most people do as well.

[janitor]

[quote=mr. magoo]How so? Foreman and Louis were nothing like each other stylistically.

They are alike in one crucial aspect.

If two big punchers meet in ring centre then all being equal the guy coming forward looses. Exceptions are few and far between.

I think that I have adequately covered my backside by describing an alternative scenario where Frazier dose not bet knocked out early.

What's more, George possesed more power than Louis,

Debatable.

Louis was certainly the more efective puncher of the two.

[RAMPAGE0017]

[QUOTE] Then you simply don't know Louis.

He broke Max Schmeling's spine, and drove Paulino Uzcduns teeth through his mouthpeice.

He lifted 230 lb Tony Galento off the canvas, spun 250 lb Buddy Baer round 360 degrees lifted Tami Maurelio and threw him with single punches.


No, I don't know Louis. And neither do you, so all's either one of us can do is have an opinion. Tony Galento was a D level fighter, and Buddy Baer was no better than his brother. I'm just not a believer in that he had this phenominal power that everyone always goes on about.

[RAMPAGE0017]

[QUOTE] Ali and Holmes did not have anything aproaching Louis's power. Tyson was a superb ofensive fighter but lacked infighting skills and threw long looped punches relative to Louis.


Since when did power become synonymous with offense?

[mr. magoo]

[quote=Sizzle]Yeh? I especially liked the way Frazier managed to bob, weave and avoid Foremans slow, telegraphed power punches.


Frazier got cought with the type of hooker-cut punches that mainly Foreman, more so than any other fighter was good at throwing.


Fraziers defense was rubbish, certainly the worst of the heavyweight swarmers - Tyson, Dempsey and even Marciano.


I don't agree with the statement that his defense was rubbish....
Foreman possessed more power, but Louis was a far better puncher with better punch efficiency, and much more accurate shots.

I agree, but Louis was also far more susseptible to getting hurt by fighters who were no where near as polished as Frazier. The same works both ways.


Would someone please like to explain to me in detail what "skills" Frazier learnt that Louis didn't because he fought two decades later?


It's not so much a matter of one having more skill than the other, as it is a styles thing. Styles make fights. Louis admitted that Marciano crowded him in a way that would give him trouble even in his prime. Galento was more or less a journeyman left hooker without even a fraction of the talent or athleticism that Frazier had, yet he staggered him in the first and floored him, I believe in the third.

Plain and simple, I just don't feel that Louis woud beat Frazier head to head.. Do I know this to be fact? No. Do I feel that Frazier was better all around than Louis was? No. Again, it's about styles. Louis did not like left hookers or swarmers. He also fought but two black men in 25 title defenses. One of whom was a former light heavyweight who was beaten by James Braddock, while the other was the same age as Louis at 34, and was arguably robbed against Joe in their first fight. Louis was nearly outboxed by a former middleweight who actually moved up in class to avoid the growing level of competition in his perspective division. Louis was decked by Braddock, who hadn't fought in over 2 years, had 25 career losses, was arthritic, and had sustained so many career injuries, that he was borderline disabled when he fought Louis.

People like to comment on Frazier's performance against Foreman, when trying to gain ground in building an argument for Louis beating him head to head. They ignore the fact, however that only one man really made him look bad in 37 career fights. That man was another all time great with one of the hardest punches in history, and demolished Joe when he was on the decline. Louis fans also ignore the fact, that he had not just one or two, but multiple weak performances against fighters who were not even in Foreman's league. Scmeling, Walcott, Braddock, Galento, Conn I, Mauriello, Baer, and a few others.

[NickHudson]

This is a great match-up and debate, one of the most interesting I have seen on ESB. Both men are fantastic, and this match-up is not clouded by huge differences in size which is great.

My initial response was Frazier to ultimately wear down Louis, but then I read Janitors compelling posts and I changed my mind.

But then Magoo has reverted me to my first impression.

On balance, Frazier by late attrition stoppage.

[hobgoblin]

A broken jaw, and a stoppage in the mid-rounds, I believe. :yep



In all honesty, I give Louis credit for doing what he's done in his time, but I'm just not big enough of a believer in him to think he would be able to beat many fighters who followed decades after his time in the sport. Definitely not Frazier.

joe frazier was not a very humble man. he rated himself #3. do you know which two fighters he picked before himself? joe louis and rocky marciano

[My dinner with Conteh]

There's no real comparison with Foreman-Frazier as George's chin is far better then Louis's. Saying that, Joe L wins this contest for me- Frazier's too easily hit to keep a superb puncher like Louis at bay, obviously he has a chance, Louis's chin wasn't that good but offensively he was dynamite. This = Louis TKO 8.

[dmt]

Conn did not move up to avoid anybody. You don;t move up to challenge Louis if u'r trying to avoid say Burley, that's just stupid. Conn moved up because he had alot of guts and wanted to be the best. Had Conn wanted he could have dominated the light-heavyweights for years

[thunder06]

i say he brings out a black baby.

[mcvey]

And brought the very best out of the Greatest.

What about the other one? What does Frazier bring out of Joe Louis?
And Frazier was in such great shape after their first fight he defended against those legends Stander and Daniels ,then got bombed out by Foreman ,I think it was the other way round myself!

[janitor]

Tony Galento was a D level fighter, and Buddy Baer was no better than his brother. I'm just not a believer in that he had this phenominal power that everyone always goes on about.

It dose not take any less power to lift a D level 230lb fighter a foot canvas than it dose to lift Riddick Bowe a foot off the canvas. It is a matter of force vs gravity.

[janitor]

Since when did power become synonymous with offense?

Power is a critical component of ofense. Great finishers who lack power are few and far between.

[janitor]

There's no real comparison with Foreman-Frazier as George's chin is far better then Louis's.

I think that Foreman did have the better pure chin of the two but ironicaly Joe Louis might have been harder to stop.

Louis had incredible recuperative powers. He could be wobled and dropped but then he would be dangerous again in five seconds.

[miamite]

joe frazier was not a very humble man. he rated himself #3. do you know which two fighters he picked before himself? joe louis and rocky marciano When did he say this? I knew he said something to the effect that since he beat Ali, surely Joe Louis and Rocky could...

[RAMPAGE0017]

It dose not take any less power to lift a D level 230lb fighter a foot canvas than it dose to lift Riddick Bowe a foot off the canvas. It is a matter of force vs gravity.


[Only registered and activated users can see links] A foot off the canvas? Let's not go too overboard.


Power is a critical component of ofense. Great finishers who lack power are few and far between.

There's more to offense than knockout power.

[miamite]

I think that Foreman did have the better pure chin of the two but ironicaly Joe Louis might have been harder to stop.
. I would have to disagree - considering the fact that Foreman fought better fighters, bigger punchers, and had a longer career and was still stopped a lesser amount of times than Louis. Plus, the one time Foreman did get stopped was largely due to exaustion, rather than purely his chin.

Foreman had the chin to rush out to the middle of the ring and be unafraid to slug and bomb out Joe Frazier. Louis did not.

[RAMPAGE0017]

I would have to disagree - considering the fact that Foreman faught better fighters, bigger punchers, and had a longer career and was still stopped a lesser amount of times than Louis. Plus, the one time Foreman did get stopped was largely due to exaustion, rather than purely his chin.

Foreman had the chin to rush out to the middle of the ring and be unafraid to slug and bomb out Joe Frazier. Louis did not.

I think Foreman definitely has a better chin that Louis, but I think Louis getting knocked down often in his career has more to do with a shakey defense than his chin. Louis wasn't hard to hit, and sometimes he would just get caught off balance. As a matter of fact, his fight with Galento is a perfect example of that.

[janitor]

[quote=RAMPAGE0017][Only registered and activated users can see links] A foot off the canvas? Let's not go too overboard.


It takes serious power to do that.


There's more to offense than knockout power.


The point is that Louis had the whole package. Power, speed, faultless execution, delivery, accuracy. There is no atribute that he lacked as an ofensive fighter and that is what makes him uneique.

[janitor]

[quote=miamite]I would have to disagree - considering the fact that Foreman fought better fighters, bigger punchers, and had a longer career and was still stopped a lesser amount of times than Louis.

Only a verry low percentage of Foremans fights were against ranked contenders compared to Louis.

Foreman fought better fighters?

He fought two better fighters but apart from that the average quality of his opponents was abysmal.


Plus, the one time Foreman did get stopped was largely due to exaustion, rather than purely his chin.


Remember I am not saying that Louis had a better chin I am sying that he might have been harder to stop taking into acount recuperative powers and stamina.


Foreman had the chin to rush out to the middle of the ring and be unafraid to slug and bomb out Joe Frazier. Louis did not.


Louis was no shrinking violet when it came to taking big punches. Against Max Baer for example he was prepared to take a few to land his own.

[janitor]

I think Foreman definitely has a better chin that Louis, but I think Louis getting knocked down often in his career has more to do with a shakey defense than his chin.

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge volume of ranked oponents he fought during his career.

The fact is that no heavyweight champion even aproaches Louis in terms of sheer number of fights against ranked oponents except Muhamad Ali.

[prime]

Joe Frazier’s limitation is all he had was that left hook, which was fine against a retreating Ali at whom he could swing to his heart’s content. But mid-range against a two-fisted dynamite puncher like Louis, with that chin sticking out, spells disaster for Frazier. I see Louis’ accurate power punches denting Frazier’s head much too often for a TKO win inside 10.

To the thread’s point, Frazier would bring out the best in Louis, who had the basics and power to exploit Frazier’s bull rushes. Louis would prove he could turn back a dangerous, determined left hooker thanks to his polished skills.

[janitor]

To the thread’s point, Frazier would bring out the best in Louis, who had the basics and power to exploit Frazier’s bull rushes. Louis would prove he could turn back a dangerous, determined left hooker thanks to his polished skills.

"Joe Louis told me that I would beat Joe Frazier and he told me exactly how"

George Foreman

[RAMPAGE0017]

Perhaps it has something to do with the huge volume of ranked oponents he fought during his career.

The fact is that no heavyweight champion even aproaches Louis in terms of sheer number of fights against ranked oponents except Muhamad Ali.


I think it has more to do with a shakey defense.

And if Tony Galento was ever ranked then that doesn't say too much about the level of opposition during Louis' reign.

[McGrain]

I think that Foreman did have the better pure chin of the two but ironicaly Joe Louis might have been harder to stop.

Louis had incredible recuperative powers. He could be wobled and dropped but then he would be dangerous again in five seconds.


Yes.

In fact I read a story today about Louis fighting the final two rounds v Schmeling whilst basically unconscious. I'd heard the same thing about Dempsey v Firpo, but this is the first time i'd heard this story.

[McGrain]

On balance, Frazier by late attrition stoppage.


I'm quite surprised to see people picking Frazier, didn't expect that when I started the thread - i was more interested in seeing what people thought Frazier could bring from Louis on the way to defeat (maybe valiant).

For the record I think the great Frazier is exactly the type of fighter that Louis would eat alive, piece by piece.

[janitor]

[quote=RAMPAGE0017]I think it has more to do with a shakey defense.


Erm. No.

You have to take facts into acount.

Louis fought more ranked heavyweights than anybody outside of Ali by a ratio of 2 to 1.

That has to be taken into consideration when talking about the number of times he was on the canvas.


And if Tony Galento was ever ranked then that doesn't say too much about the level of opposition during Louis' reign.


Tony Galento had one of the hardest left hooks in history.

He would probably have knocked out Ken Norton for example.

[RAMPAGE0017]

[QUOTE]Tony Galento had one of the hardest left hooks in history.

He would probably have knocked out Ken Norton for example.


A more proper analysis of that is " Tony Galento had one of the sloppiest left hooks in history ".